From: owner-h-costume-digest (H-Costume Digest) To: h-costume-digest@lunch.engr.sgi.com Subject: H-Costume Digest V3 #234 Reply-To: h-costume Errors-To: owner-h-costume-digest@lunch.engr.sgi.com Precedence: bulk H-Costume Digest Monday, October 23 1995 Volume 3, Number 234 Compilation copyright (C) 1995 Diane Barlow Close and Gretchen Miller Use in whole prohibited. Individual articles are the property of the author. Seek permission from that author before reprinting or quoting elsewhere. Important Addresses: Send submissions to: h-costume@lunch.engr.sgi.com (or reply to this message). Adds/drops/archives: majordomo@lunch.engr.sgi.com Real, live person: h-costume-request@andrew.cmu.edu Topics: Re: Web Site for H-Costume Silk Ribbons RE: Robin Hood hats Re: Sewn Eyelets Re: Patterns Dicken's Costumes Victorian boots Re: Patterns Simple Costuming Circular needles cartridge pleating Redyeing Wool Garment Re: Redyeing Wool Garment men's amer. rev. war Shirts and Silk Re: Shirts and Silk Sewn Eyelets ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 20 Oct 1995 15:38:03 -0700 (PDT) From: close (Diane Barlow Close) Subject: Re: Web Site for H-Costume Heather Meadows wrote: > I know it's been discussed before that people would like to see and > display photos of their work, or photos of non- copyrighted period > images etc... but that the list is not the appropriate place to do this > ... > well I have a web site, http://www.wonderland.com/ and since we've added > [snip] > we can mirror the archives or h-costume, and make them easily searchable > through a web front end.. I'm *ALL* excited about it, but I don't want > to duplicate anyone's efforts or step on any toes.. This is a GREAT idea! Thanks so much for offering it, Heather. I have a web page and was thinking of offering h-costume archives through it (in addition to the by-mail-through-majordomo method currently used), but I have no room for costume pictures. An "official" h-costume picture site would be very welcome and I'll put a pointer to it in the info file if/when you get it going. Keep me posted! Thanks again! - -- Diane Close close@lunch.engr.sgi.com I'm at lunch all day. :-) ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 20 Oct 1995 15:56:34 -0700 (PDT) From: Diana Dills Subject: Silk Ribbons Someone was asking about the colorfastness of the new silk ribbons which are now widely available for silk ribbon embroidery. Having been amongst the first to stampede out and buy some (I got a GREAT DEAL on them at Michael's, by accident!) I've had the opportunity to do several projects. Most of the work has been on very pale cottons--washed out blue, pink, and bleached white. I'm a practical sort, so I did a small cluster of roses on an old faded chambray skirt, mainly to cover a hole where I'd snagged it on a nail or something...Then I threw the whole caboodle into the washing machine, with Tide and warm water. Without looking, I quickly chucked the damp mess into the dryer and let it blast away for 40 minutes or so. I then, with great trepidation, withdrew the chambray skirt, expecting to see a pastel rainbow, with a bedraggled buch of linty threads in the center. Imagine my surprise when I found--a tidy bunch of rosettes, rosebuds, and leaves, looking pretty much as they did when I embroidered them, and actually still showing the same colors! Since then, I've become MUCH more enthusiastic about silk ribbon embroidery, and all of my projects have been washable, as well as wearable. Some have been through the spin cycle a couple of dozen times now, with minimal ill effects! Diana DIANA DILLS ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 20 Oct 95 16:30:08 PDT From: ches@tristero.io.com Subject: RE: Robin Hood hats - ---------------Original Message--------------- While I could find numerous round-crowned Robin Hood type hats, no fold-over pointy-toward-the-back ones. Ok has anyone seen primary documentation of one? I think they are really cute on kids, and I will probably make a halloween one. But even so, I will probably cut down a felt round-crowned felt hat blank for a living history hat for him. --julie adams - ----------End of Original Message---------- In my "Historic Costume for the Stage" book by Lucy Barton I found only tricorn hats that with small brims that "look" like RB hats and hats with round brims that had been tucked into the shape of whatever you want. If you want the documentation they give or the further reading list they refer to I can forward them to you. On the off chance you still want to do an elf on page 223 fig.13 a jester (Elizabethan and earlier) wearing morris bells. His hat has elf ears set into it. The documentation for it is as follows: "A small statue of a jester in the British Museum, reproduced in *Manuel d'Archaeologie Francaise*, tome III, le Costume, by Camille Enlart (fig.388) and the reproduction of a woodcarving in an English parish church (Temp. Henry VIII), have been our principal sources for the jester's costume." - ------------------------------------- Ciao Ches E-mail: Ches@io.com This message was sent by Chameleon - ------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 20 Oct 1995 12:54:25 -0700 (PDT) From: Rhodry Subject: Re: Sewn Eyelets > On either side of the eye, you will see the stretched fabric > edge. Start your buttonhole stitch on one of these edges. The needle > with the buttonhole thread will need to be slightly bent or flexible > to get past the tapestry needle. > -Carol Kocian Questions: 1. Does the fabric around the eyelet weaken from the number of times a needle has passed through for the buttonhole stitch? 2. What kind of thread do you use for the buttonhole stitch? 3. How many strands? 4. When did this technique start being used? I have heard of a similar technique for covering grommets (grommet the fabric, then take a needle and thread & do the buttonhole stich around, hence, covering the metal grommet) and thought that while this would hide the metal grommet well, it would weaken the fabric around the grommet, thus causing it to rip out sooner that it would uncovered? Does this technique have any inherent weaknesses like that? or are my assumptions wrong? Thanks - Rhodry ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 20 Oct 1995 21:56:52 -0400 From: kl94ag@badger.ac.BrockU.CA (Kathleen Leggat) Subject: Re: Patterns Please don't use those awful cone-shaped monstrosities that >everyone associates with the Middle Ages. Yes, they are easy to make, but >they are not truly representative of the time period. > There's nothing wrong with hennins. You just have to realize that the full cone hennin was not commonly worn in England. It is a French fashion. England wore the half-hennin...looks like a cone cut off half way up with a flat top. The hennin is perfectly representational of the Age of Chivalry. Btw, the loop attached to the hennin which hangs over the forehead...the sources I have seen cannot come up with a reason for the loop other than, perhaps, as a counter-weight. Here's my theory...I figure the headgear was probebly made to tightly fit the head, so it wouldn't fall off, and kept the hair decently away from the forehead. So...wouldn't the loop's purpose be to pull the hat down over the head? Whatcha think? Kathleen (Catriona) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 19 Oct 1995 03:01:30 -0400 From: Christy546@aol.com Subject: Dicken's Costumes Hi All, 'Nother question for you. I am co-ordinating a group of volunteers to work at a booth for the American Museum of Straw Arts at the Dicken's fair in San Francisco. Most of them will only be working for one weekend. I need to be able to give them information for simple to put together costumes. They also need to be low cost. These people are giving of their time and I want to ask as little else of them as possible. I have never actually been to the fair myself, but I'm the type who does the costume from the inside out. If anyone can pass along costume hints for be to give the volunteers, I'd appreciate it. Does anyone have hints for thrift store finds and how to make them over. The volunteeres are mostly 30 - 40 years old and will be working a game booth. The costumes don't have to be too fancy. Thanks for your help. It is so nice to have such a lot of helpful people right at your fingertips. Christy ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 20 Oct 1995 21:25:09 -0700 From: Allan Terry Subject: Victorian boots Gail, I read the Alcott book you mentioned in childhood and remember the bronze boots. But I don't remember when it was published--a date would help in getting the information you want. According to _Shoes_, by June Swann (Batsford 1982), bronze leather shoes were exhibited at the 1851 exhibition (presumably Crystal Palace) and remained popular until 1900. They seem to have been just bronze-colored leather. Boots (what we'd call high-topped shoes) were fashionable through most of the Victorian period. But I can't find any evidence they were used for dancing. Some dance shoes labeled as such in fashion plates (from between 1860 and 1900) have inconvenient heels--the curved-under Louis kind, about 1 1/2 or 2 inches high. But they are shoes not boots. In plates showing full evening dress, the dresses are usually so long you can't see anything but a toe tip here and there. This is true of many dance illustrations too. Not everyone who went to a dance was required to actually dance. Also Alcott's heroines usually seem to have a hard time looking fashionable, either through insufficient funds or excess morals. Amazon sells mostly shoes from both Anello & Davide and a few styles from another company, probably the Gohn brothers you mentioned. The Anello & Davide styles are lighter, and I've had some made with flexible suede dance soles. I also have a pair of the others, which are very clumsy and weigh like a brick. I ended up putting them in a bag I keep under the bed, which I hope to have enough presence of mind to retrieve before I flee out the door when the Big One strikes in the middle of the night. Those shoes seem just the thing for wading through ankle-deep broken glass. They're certainly unwearable for anything else. Fran Grimble ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 21 Oct 1995 00:53:29 -0400 From: margritt@mindspring.com (Margritte) Subject: Re: Patterns At 9:56 PM 10/20/95, Kathleen Leggat wrote: > Please don't use those awful cone-shaped monstrosities that >>everyone associates with the Middle Ages. Yes, they are easy to make, but >>they are not truly representative of the time period. >> > > > > There's nothing wrong with hennins. You just have to realize that >the full cone hennin was not commonly worn in England. It is a French >fashion. England wore the half-hennin...looks like a cone cut off half way >up with a flat top. > > The hennin is perfectly representational of the Age of Chivalry. > > Btw, the loop attached to the hennin which hangs over the >forehead...the sources I have seen cannot come up with a reason for the loop >other than, perhaps, as a counter-weight. Here's my theory...I figure the >headgear was probebly made to tightly fit the head, so it wouldn't fall off, >and kept the hair decently away from the forehead. So...wouldn't the loop's >purpose be to pull the hat down over the head? Whatcha think? > > Kathleen (Catriona) I suppose it's a personal bias of mine... As I understand it, the cone-shaped hennin was worn for a relatively short period of time (20 or so years?). I guess I've just seen it overdone at schools doing renn faires. It especially grates when the rest of the costume doesn't match the time period. When kids are trying to throw together quick and dirty costumes, I usually recommend that they stay away from the hennins, especially since there are other headpieces that are more appropriate for most of their costumes. But then, what do I know? I'm a 12th c. Norman, and anything other than a veil looks strange to me :-) As for the loop, you certainly have a reasonable theory. I have to admit, I never really thought about it before. - -Margritte - ------------------------------------------------------------ Gryphon's Moon - Request our free catalog of Celtic jewelry. email margritt@mindspring.com or check out our web page at http://www.mindspring.com/~maclain/ ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 21 Oct 1995 00:53:34 -0400 From: margritt@mindspring.com (Margritte) Subject: Simple Costuming Many thanks to those of you who sent kind words my way after I accidentally posted info here concerning simple medieval costuming for school kids. I'm glad people found it of interest. In fact, I'm going to try to put some of these ideas on a web page, hopefully with pictures as well as text, as soon as I get some time. I'll keep you informed. I forget sometimes how nice this group is. I expected flames, and got compliments instead. Go figure! :-) - -Margritte - ------------------------------------------------------------ Gryphon's Moon - Request our free catalog of Celtic jewelry. email margritt@mindspring.com or check out our web page at http://www.mindspring.com/~maclain/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 18 Oct 95 22:55:11 EDT From: Maryann Subject: Circular needles Does anyone know when circular needles were invented and when they came into common use? Was there some sort of for runner? Thanks, Maryann ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 21 Oct 95 05:45:33 EDT From: andreah@cpsnet.com (Andrea Harrison) Subject: cartridge pleating Should I cartridge pleat my Cavelier gown? I assume so, 'cause most of the gowns directly preceding that period were done so, but the book I'm going by doesn't say one way or the other. BTW, I'm talking about the skirt to waistband. The book does say to do so for the sleeves. - -- Andrea andreah@cpsnet.com "We've got a full tank of gas, half a pack of cigarettes, it's dark and we're wearing sunglasses. Hit it!" The Blues Brothers ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 22 Oct 1995 13:47:40 -0400 From: PiranhaBB@aol.com Subject: Redyeing Wool Garment I was fortunate enough to have found a black wool frock coat for the Dickens Festival for my boyfriend's constable or Bobbie costume. Unfortunately he is an even greater stickler for accuracy than I am. All of his historical resources say that the Bobbies of the time (circa 1860) wore dark blue. Now I need to find out how to get this garment deep blue. Is it possible to bleach it a little and redye it? Perhaps spray it with a light solution of bleach and then let it sit? I don't want to do anything that will make the coat fall apart. It is in very good condition, it fits him perfectly, and it is completely (other than the color) historically accurate. Please don't send sources that say that black was historically correct for these coats, because he won't be satisfied with anything other than a dark blue coat. Thanks for any help. Lisa PiranhaBB@aol.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 22 Oct 1995 19:08:53 -0400 From: BBrisbane@aol.com Subject: Re: Redyeing Wool Garment You must love this man very much, but to attempt to bleach and redye this perfectly lovely coal is (excuse my bluntness) a fools errand, and you will never be satified with the results. Must black cloth is created by a combination of colors; that is by over-dying in contrast to a brown, blue or green base. You won't know until the color fades what you have to work with. If you must try, test chlorine bleach or peroxide on a hidden seam or hem facing. If it is a blue based black, procede as you see fit, but the garment interfacing and shoulder padding will probably take some damage and lose some shape in the redying process. It may be easier to make him a new coat. My best wishes to you in this project. Brenda ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 22 Oct 1995 22:18:58 -0400 From: Mazelle@aol.com Subject: men's amer. rev. war I have been approached to do some men's american revolutioary war outfits. The question I have deals with the pants. Did they just wear breeches or did they have long trousers at this time? My client wants a pair of pants that have a stirrup attached at the foot, so that the pants will cover his shoes, so that he does not have to have period shoes. mazelle@aol.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Oct 1995 13:58:36 +1000 From: "GILLIAN RICHARDS (02) 716 3712" Subject: Shirts and Silk 1st - thanks for all the info about the shirt, esp. the reminder to wash the material first - I don't always remember, and the stuff shrunk from 3.7m x 112 cm to 3.2m x 94cm - I had JUST enough. However, I have just tried it on the gentleman, and the sleeves are a bit snug - is it worthwhile putting a bigger gusset under the arms, or should I loosen the whole gathering by an inch? About the silk dupion - I have just laid my mits on 4m for $40 (Oh Joy) for a skirt, and will henceforth treat it with care. However - if your silk is feeling scratchy after too many machine washes, try soaking it in a strong mixture of hair conditioner and water - it brings back the softness. Gillian + - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - + | Gillian Richards - TAFE NSW - (02) 716 3712 (space for ASCII | | aka: gillian.richards@tafensw.edu.au picture when I | | "The Midnight Fox", "Mummy" find the time!) | + - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - + ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Oct 1995 16:44:09 +1000 (EST) From: Katrina Hunt Subject: Re: Shirts and Silk Just a note on washing silk. Personally I've had very little problem washing silk any way I've wanted to (that includes some meat impregnated silk organza which I soaked in Nappy San and then washed in hot water) but I believe there is actually a special Silk wash commercially available. Apparently this even leaves alot of the crispness in dupion. Unfortunately I've forgotten the name of it. But keep an eye out for it. Katrina. ******************************************************************************* * * * David and Katrina Hunt | thehunts@canberra.dialix.oz.au * * Stephen Aldred & Mathilde Adycote | 24 Edwards St Higgins ACT Australia * Baron & Baroness Politarchopolis | Phone (06) 254 3059 * * * ******************************************************************************* ------------------------------ Date: 23 Oct 95 06:07:39 EDT From: Rhane <74404.22@compuserve.com> Subject: Sewn Eyelets To: "Carol Kocian" Subject: Re: Sewn Eyelets <> I've got some: Janet Arnold's 'Patterns of Fashion - The cut and construction of clothes for men and women c1560-1620' page 16 number 87 is a photograph of eyelets. These eyelets have a metal ring (like a jewelry 'jump ring') that is oversewn to lend strength to the holes. Quote "...still tied through the bottom pair of holes in the doublet front and a pair of eyelet holes in the fragments of the waistband of the hose or breeches. The later are worked over metal rings for reinforcement." end quote. This is from a garment from 1574, Florence. This page also shows photos of hook & eyes and from another garment, another set of sewn eyes. page 24 also has some excellent examples of hook and eyes, sewn eyes, and button holes. Example number 151's caption says that hooks and eyes were still new and that they would soon displace and replace the use of points in clothing. c1605-1610 I do costuming and knew that metal eyelets/grommets that we use now didn't really come into general clothing use until about mid 1800s but wanted to re-enforce the holes I was going to make in my clothes for elizabethan costumes. I came up with using the jump rings and oversewing them by myself. This example I found in JA's book only confirmed and now I've got 'documentation' for my idea. :) And looking at the costumes in the book and going to Westminster Abbey and the V&A regularly, the pattern cut for the women's early elizabethan costume in Holkeboer's theatrical costumes is quite a bit closer than the one from Medieval Miscellenia (or is Period Patterns now?).... hmmm.... Ah well... hehehe enjoying this list more than some of the others I was on... less fighting, too.... Rhane ------------------------------ End of H-Costume Digest V3 #234 ******************************* A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to subscribe to that instead, send the command lines: unsubscribe h-costume-digest subscribe h-costume end in the body of a message to majordomo@lunch.engr.sgi.com. Thanks and enjoy the list!