From: owner-h-costume-digest (H-Costume Digest) To: h-costume-digest@lunch.engr.sgi.com Subject: H-Costume Digest V3 #235 Reply-To: h-costume Errors-To: owner-h-costume-digest@lunch.engr.sgi.com Precedence: bulk H-Costume Digest Monday, October 23 1995 Volume 3, Number 235 Compilation copyright (C) 1995 Diane Barlow Close and Gretchen Miller Use in whole prohibited. Individual articles are the property of the author. Seek permission from that author before reprinting or quoting elsewhere. Important Addresses: Send submissions to: h-costume@lunch.engr.sgi.com (or reply to this message). Adds/drops/archives: majordomo@lunch.engr.sgi.com Real, live person: h-costume-request@andrew.cmu.edu Topics: "penpals" how much do I need? RE: Robin Hood hats Assumptions vs Evidence for history Re: how much do I need? COSTUME: Black wool -> blue Re: how much do I need? Re: how much do I need? Re: Re[2]: Help - first time silk user... Pinking Satin Re: Pinking Satin Re: Pinking Satin Hennin loops Re: Pinking Satin Recent duplicate posts... Re: Hennin loops ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 23 Oct 1995 13:26:58 +0100 (MET) From: Ingela Sjömark Subject: "penpals" Hi.. I am a history-student from sweden, who would love to have "penpals" (computerpals:))from all over the world. I'm a seamastress and "I'm in the SCA". I really LOVE this mailinglist.... Please write... Greetings Ingela Ingela@ludd.luth.se ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Oct 95 08:53:43 EDT From: andreah@cpsnet.com (Andrea Harrison) Subject: how much do I need? Is 5yrds enough for a cartridge pleated (cavalier) skirt for a 5ft, 150lb, 30" waisted woman? And I know that it should be done by hand but is there any way to do it on the machine? Andrea andreah@cpsnet.com "We've got a full tank of gas, half a pack of cigarettes, it's dark and we're wearing sunglasses. Hit it!" The Blues Brothers ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Oct 1995 10:38:48 -0400 From: Joe Marfice Subject: RE: Robin Hood hats Julie Adams asks: >While I could find numerous round-crowned Robin Hood type hats, >no fold-over pointy-toward-the-back ones. Ok has anyone seen >primary documentation of one? I think they are really cute on >kids, and I will probably make a halloween one. But even so, I >will probably cut down a felt round-crowned felt hat blank for a >living history hat for him. --julie adams This sort of hat can be found in continental paintings from the early 1400's, notably Gaston Phoebus' "Hunting Book". I've noticed them in other paintings as well, but don't remember those references. Typically, the peak is higher than I would expect for "Errol Flynn" pseudo-Medi-sortof-eval costume wannabe items, and sometimes it even curls forward a bit (hard to explain; I hope you can picture this). | Broom, at The Lady Perrine | aka Joe Marfice | Ministerium honor est. \|/ which means "Sewing is he-man work! " /|\ 513-222-2330 233 Perrine Street //|\\ af289@dayton.wright.edu Dayton (my fayre citee), OH 45410 ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Oct 1995 16:29:18 +0100 From: j.w.hubbard@sheffield.ac.uk (Bill Hubbard) Subject: Assumptions vs Evidence for history Re: Posts from Mrs C S Yeldham, Teresa Shannon, Susan Fatemi (and my original muddy post . . .) Sorry for not making myself clear in my original post. Greaves were certainly in use in antiquity: Greeks and Romans used solid ones, migration period types were made of splints, etc. My point was that logical reasoning on modern grounds does not always give you the right answer with regard to interpreting the past. Using my salutary Greaves and Goliath story, consider the following with regard to 1250 AD: The style of fighting threatened the legs of foot-soldiers: a minor hit could effectively cripple a man and cost him his life. (Need) Helmets were commonplace and of complex construction: either complexity in forming a bowl shape, or complexity in riveting together separately shaped pieces: far more difficult than a simple greave. (Ability) Having a reference to greaves for Goliath, an artist knew what they were and painted them. Therefore, the idea of greaves was known. (Solution) So, we have a life-threatening problem, with a known solution and the ability to implement the solution - wear greaves. We also know that greaves were in use before the period and after it. A reasonable view would be that greaves must have been commonplace. But they weren't. Greaves for foot soldiers only came in about 60 years later. Why didn't they do it? Well, there must be some other factor which we didn't take into account. I could make a few guesses, but thats not important right now. The point is that for history, reasoning can let you down because you have to do it with a modern mind-set and you can never know ALL of the contemporary influences. So go by the evidence and treat an idea as something to be proved, not true-because-its-reasonable. I just wanted to make the point because (A) I think its pretty central to talking about historical clothing; and (B) Its seemed particularly relevant to the use of Knitting Madonnas as evidence for widespread knitting. Regards, Bill (Seen on someone's sig: The difference between truth and fiction is that fiction has to make sense. -- Mark Twain) Bill Hubbard Multimedia Development Adviser, Teaching & Learning Development Group. Level 6 University House, Sheffield University, Sheffield. S10 2TN Email j.w.hubbard@sheffield.ac.uk Telephone 0114 2826021 Fax 0114 2757311 ------------------------------ Date: 23 Oct 1995 09:38:54 U From: "Carole Newson-Smith" Subject: Re: how much do I need? Reply to: RE>how much do I need? This weekend I was shown some tape by a friend which she is going to use for cartridge pleating. Apparently you sew it on with two rows of heavy thread top and bottom, and then pull the two drawstrings in the tape, and voila, you have just cartridge pleated. She said she paid 59 cents per yard (San Francisco bay area). I'll see her Wednesday and will ask where she got it. Carole Newson-Smith ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Oct 1995 10:08:07 -0700 From: ccary@tiara (Christina Cary) Subject: COSTUME: Black wool -> blue Hi Costume List, In reply to the person who asked about bleaching a black wool coat to redye it dark blue--DON'T. You cannot bleach wool. Wool is a protein fiber and chlorine bleach will DESTROY it (silk also). Lifting a color as dark as black is almost impossible to do with decent results on any fabric. In this case, with a wool fabric, and a garment that is already constructed (rather than yardage), it's impossible. You will only destry the coat. Either your boyfriend will have to be happy with black, or he will have to get another coat. I hope this message is not obnoxious--but I saw a post suggesting you try chlorine bleach and I had to reply. (Peroxide bleach will not obtain good results either.) Christina - -- My first name is: Christina My last name is: Cary Editor, Technical Publications E-mail address: ccary@sgi.com _______________________________________________________________________ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Oct 95 10:10:26 PDT From: julie_adams@corp.Cubic.COM Subject: Re: how much do I need? Carole said: >This weekend I was shown some tape by a friend which she is going to use for cartridge pleating. Apparently you sew it on with two rows of heavy thread top and bottom, and then pull the two drawstrings in the tape, and voila, you have just cartridge pleated. While using shirring tape, (normally used for creating draperies), is an easy way to gather the material, it still requires hand sewing to the bodice or waistband. You are also left with unsightly lines around the waist (which are visible). The other problem with this tape is that it sometimes adds a rigid backing to the pleat, stiffening the edge of the skirt, and creating a "shelf-effect" which may not be correct for the period you are doing. Please be aware of this before you use it. -- julie adams ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Oct 95 10:36:10 PST From: "Gail DeCamp" Subject: Re: how much do I need? Andrea, I commonly use 5 yards to cartridge pleat Elizabethan skirts, so I would imagine that 5 yards would work all right for Cavalier skirts. I don't know of any way to do it by machine, but a friend told me to use gingham to interline the section where you will make your pleating stitches. The checks on the gingham provide a handy stitching guide. Gail DeCamp decampg@ngc.com - ------------snip------------ Is 5yrds enough for a cartridge pleated (cavalier) skirt for a 5ft, 150lb, 30" waisted woman? And I know that it should be done by hand but is there any way to do it on the machine? Andrea ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 20 Oct 1995 08:39:14 -0700 (PDT) From: Rhodry Subject: Re: Re[2]: Help - first time silk user... On Thu, 19 Oct 1995, Gail DeCamp wrote: > Wait! Wait! If you are going to dry-clean it after you make it, > dry-clean it before you make it. I've seen the dry cleaner shrink some > finished garments. If you want to be absolutely paranoid, send it through > the dry cleaner TWICE. She is right. My red and cream silk byzantine tunic shrank when I sent it to the dry cleaners for its first cleaning. Not a whole lot, only noticeable because the trim I had on the clavi strips did not shrink so now it puckers weird. - Rhodry ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Oct 1995 13:23:58 -0400 From: Joe Marfice Subject: Pinking Satin Does anyone have any ideas for ways to pink/slash modern satins and velvets? Since fray-check visibly stiffens the area (as does nail polish), this is not usable for visible cuts. I am wondering (WARNING AUTHENTICITY PEOPLE: STOP READING NOW!) if very light-weight fusible interface would retard fraying. Very related question: it had been my assumption that late-Mediaeval and Renaissence pinking & dagging depended on (1) denser fabric weaves than modern machine-made fabrics, (2) (sometimes, especially in dags) fulling of wool or wool blends, and (3) cuts being on the diagonal. I have recently run across a reference to a mid-XVI-C man's doublet, which is noted as being slashed on the grain instead of on the diagonal. How did they keep (unfulled satin) fabric from fraying when cut on the grain, regardless of weave density? | Broom, at The Lady Perrine | aka Joe Marfice | Ministerium honor est. \|/ which means "Sewing is he-man work! " /|\ 513-222-2330 233 Perrine Street //|\\ af289@dayton.wright.edu Dayton (my fayre citee), OH 45410 ------------------------------ Date: 23 Oct 1995 12:47:09 U From: "Carole Newson-Smith" Subject: Re: Pinking Satin Reply to: RE>Pinking Satin :Very related question: it had been my assumption that late-Mediaeval and :Renaissence pinking & dagging depended on (1) denser fabric weaves than modern :machine-made fabrics, (2) (sometimes, especially in dags) fulling of wool or :wool blends, and (3) cuts being on the diagonal. I have recently run across a :reference to a mid-XVI-C man's doublet, which is noted as being slashed on the :grain instead of on the diagonal. How did they keep (unfulled satin) fabric :from fraying when cut on the grain, regardless of weave density? : | Broom, at The Lady Perrine Well, in some portraits (Dutch in the 1500-1600's) I have seen overcasting on slashes when the scale was large enough. But the outer fabric was not satin. I have heard on reasonably good authority that sometimes wax was used., but I have not asked for specific references. Where have you seen pinking? I'm curious. Carole Newson-Smith ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Oct 1995 13:20:16 -0700 (PDT) From: Kelly Keith Subject: Re: Pinking Satin Use Micro-serrated scissors. Gingher, of course, makes a nice pair. Kelly ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Oct 1995 12:53:37 -0500 From: nielsen@han.mayo.edu (Ann Nielsen) Subject: Hennin loops Kathleen (Catriona) wrote: > > Btw, the loop attached to the hennin which hangs over the >forehead...the sources I have seen cannot come up with a reason for the loop >other than, perhaps, as a counter-weight. Here's my theory...I figure the >headgear was probebly made to tightly fit the head, so it wouldn't fall off, >and kept the hair decently away from the forehead. So...wouldn't the loop's >purpose be to pull the hat down over the head? Whatcha think? > > Kathleen (Catriona) ...and Margritte wrote: >As for the loop, you certainly have a reasonable theory. I have to admit, I >never really thought about it before. - --- A friend of mine made a hennin (she's actually made lots of hats, so this did not seem like a challenge to her). She decided she did not like the 'stupid little loop' seen in the illuminations of hennins, and so left it off. She then proceeded to wear it (around the house, as a test, before wearing it to an event) and *could not keep the darn thing on* (her words. Well, her words cleaned up a bit...). After much soul-searching (she really disliked the way the loop looked), she broke down and added a fabric-covered metal loop to the front of the hennin. Voila!! It stayed on!! She was amazed and dismayed. However, after time, she came to 'like' the little loop, since it was indispensible and kept her hennin from sliding off the back of her head. As far as we can figure out, the loop that presses on your forehead at the front of a hennin acts like a 'lock', keeping the hat on your head. Just thought it might be fun to share a little hard-won experience with this hat. Ann Nielsen (Mistress Therica in the SCA) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Oct 95 18:45:53 PST From: Kat@grendal.rain.com (June Russell) Subject: Re: Pinking Satin ::How did they keep (unfulled satin) fabric ::from fraying when cut on the grain, regardless of weave density? :: | Broom, at The Lady Perrine : :Well, in some portraits (Dutch in the 1500-1600's) I have seen overcasting :on slashes when the scale was large enough. But the outer fabric was not :satin. :I have heard on reasonably good authority that sometimes wax was used., :but I have not asked for specific references. : :Where have you seen pinking? I'm curious. Dagging and the like might not need any finish, but satins need to have some sort of stabilization if you don't want the frayed look (which is actually appropriate at times). Janet Arnold's books (Patterns of Fashion c1560-1620 and Queen Elizabeth's Wardrobe Unlock'd) show pinking and slashing on satin. It isn't pinking like you get with pinking shears, but little slashes in the fabric. In a lecture I went to by Janet Arnold, she said that there is evidence of gum arabic being used to stabilize the slashes (if they didn't want them to fray). Great! Renaissance Fray Check! Kat Kateryne of Hindscroft ( June Russell ) pacifier.com!grendal!kat kat@grendal.rain.com Heu! Tintinnuntius meus Sonat! ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Oct 1995 21:18:08 -0700 (PDT) From: close (Diane Barlow Close) Subject: Recent duplicate posts... A few posts to the list have been duplicated recently. The problem was one that was beyond both the individual poster's and the list software's control. Another site had a problem with their mail and sent back multiple copies of various individual's posts _to the list_ instead of to the _list owner_, and didn't add any of the proper bounce mail headers. This meant that these returned posts looked like they came from the original author, multiple times. Christy546@aol.com was one of the victims of this site-gone-haywire: it looked like she posted the same thing to the list four times, but that was not the case. Instead, she posted once and her post was one of the ones sent back to the list by the bad site (it was sent back three times, once for each of their problem users). I have put a filter on the incoming posts queue that should catch this particular problem in the future, before it goes on to the list. Sorry for the inconvenience and confusion! - -- Diane Close h-costume co-maintainer close@lunch.engr.sgi.com I'm at lunch all day. :-) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Oct 1995 09:29:56 +1000 From: M.DEVOGEL@student.anu.edu.au (Miesje de Vogel) Subject: Re: Hennin loops >Kathleen (Catriona) wrote: > >> >> Btw, the loop attached to the hennin which hangs over the >>forehead...the sources I have seen cannot come up with a reason for the loop >>other than, perhaps, as a counter-weight. Here's my theory...I figure the >>headgear was probebly made to tightly fit the head, so it wouldn't fall off, >>and kept the hair decently away from the forehead. So...wouldn't the loop's >>purpose be to pull the hat down over the head? >...and Margritte wrote: > >>As for the loop, you certainly have a reasonable theory. I have to admit, I >>never really thought about it before. >A friend of mine made a hennin (she's actually made lots of hats, so this >did not seem like a challenge to her). She decided she did not like the >'stupid little loop' seen in the illuminations of hennins, and so left it >off. She then proceeded to wear it (around the house, as a test, before >wearing it to an event) and *could not keep the darn thing on* (her words. >Well, her words cleaned up a bit...). After much soul-searching (she >really disliked the way the loop looked), she broke down and added a >fabric-covered metal loop to the front of the hennin. Voila!! It stayed >on!! She was amazed and dismayed. However, after time, she came to 'like' >the little loop, since it was indispensible and kept her hennin from sliding >off the back of her head. As far as we can figure out, the loop that >presses on your forehead at the front of a hennin acts like a 'lock', >keeping the hat on your head. Mm. Ok, I haven't made one of these, but I have worked out how I would do it, and it pretty much seems to be the consensus down here (lochac/Australia)... Way 1. As well as the fabric covered loop, you can often see a small rim, about five or more cm wide around the base of the cone. You can also see in some scenes paintedof the period, partiucularly French, people wearing this base by itslef, with their hair poking through the top, kind of like a wide headband. The theory is that you sit the hennin part inside this base, and pin the base to your head. The cone then has a chance to wobble a bit and settle, and the base doesn't move. It also works well with silk voile draped over it. Way 2. Another theory, which is suppoprted by some evidence from books (which I can't remember the names of... oops) is that it is attatched to a skullcap, to which the hennin is pinned. There is also debate in this variant as to whether the fair is pulled through a hole in the top of the crown and then made into a bun to hold it down, or whether a flat bun is made under the skullcap before it is put on. Three small notes... 1. There are no surviving copies of the hennin, so this is all speculation. 2. You can often see that the cone is not a straight cone at the bottom but has a dip at the back, which might be hairpinned to the back of the head, and might provide extra support. 3. The little loop at the front had sumptuary laws attatched in some areas to it. Most frequently, at least in Burgundian and English circles, one could only wear the loop above a cetain income, and around 1460 (I thnk) could only have aloop of Gold if the woman's independant means totalled more than ten guineas inome per year - a great way to advertise your dowry...:-) Have fun! Armida/Miesje ------------------------------ End of H-Costume Digest V3 #235 ******************************* A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to subscribe to that instead, send the command lines: unsubscribe h-costume-digest subscribe h-costume end in the body of a message to majordomo@lunch.engr.sgi.com. Thanks and enjoy the list!