From: owner-h-costume-digest (H-Costume Digest) To: h-costume-digest@lunch.engr.sgi.com Subject: H-Costume Digest V3 #245 Reply-To: h-costume Sender: owner-h-costume-digest@lunch.engr.sgi.com Errors-To: owner-h-costume-digest@lunch.engr.sgi.com Precedence: bulk H-Costume Digest Wednesday, November 8 1995 Volume 3, Number 245 Compilation copyright (C) 1995 Diane Barlow Close and Gretchen Miller Use in whole prohibited. Individual articles are the property of the author. Seek permission from that author before reprinting or quoting elsewhere. Important Addresses: Send submissions to: h-costume@lunch.engr.sgi.com (or reply to this message). Adds/drops/archives: majordomo@lunch.engr.sgi.com Real, live person: h-costume-request@andrew.cmu.edu Topics: cotehardies etc. Re: cotehardies etc. Re: Tudor Torso--Pattern Re Re: H-Costume Digest V3 #243 Re: cotehardies etc. Re: Greaves Re: cotehardies etc. ISBNs ISBN numbers Saw "Persuasion" ISBNs Victorian Hair Re: Tudor Torso--Pattern Re 1770-80 Venetian panniers Re: Tudor Torso--Pattern Re Re: cotehardies etc. Re: cotehardies etc. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 7 Nov 1995 19:34:09 -0500 From: Gaelscot@aol.com Subject: cotehardies etc. I am looking for some advice on how to cut and fit cotehardies and overgowns from the mid-fifteenth century. Does anyone know, or is it all "best guess" work? Should they be princess-seam-like, or in four pieces with lots of gores? If they didn't use corsetry then, how did they get the dresses to create the look we see in so many paintings -- with the breasts pressed in and up? What exactly were the underpinnings? I've recently seen some illuminations showing women in what I suppose is a chemise -- about a mid-calf-length tube dress with straps over the shoulders, kind of like a modern slip. Was this worn under another underdress? Was this a hot-weather garment only? Finally, I am looking for hints on making a German overgown with pleats in the front seen in Kohler's book and in several Durer prints, for starters. The pleats start below the breast and seem to comprise a center panel that is sewn down, or something, to about waist level and then let open. There was some talk about it on this list about a year ago, I think. Has anyone made this, and if so, how? I would appreciate any replies to this list or to me at gaelscot@aol.com Thanks! Gail Finke PS: Someone a while ago said that she knew how to do organ pipe pleating. Unfortunately, I forget who. Someone asked me how the other day. If you are still on this list, will you please e-mail me privately? Thanks! ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 7 Nov 1995 20:57:13 -0800 (PST) From: Heather Rose Jones Subject: Re: cotehardies etc. On Tue, 7 Nov 1995 Gaelscot@aol.com wrote: > I am looking for some advice on how to cut and fit cotehardies and overgowns > from the mid-fifteenth century. Does anyone know, or is it all "best guess" > work? Should they be princess-seam-like, or in four pieces with lots of > gores? Guesswork isn't entirely necessary. The multi-gore style of the group of garments commonly called "Greenland dresses" seems to best correspond in period and effect to the cotehardie. A lot of people _do_ take the shortcut of simply using a modern princess-style pattern. It depends on what your personal goals are for the garment. The princess-style cut has some signifigant differences in effect from the multi-gore cut. It also has the practical disadvantage of using considerably more fabric. One of the things that greatly influenced the "Greenland" style of cut was a desire to use fabric efficiently. It's also worth noting that none of the multi-gored extant garments from this period are tapered in from the bust to the waist as most princess-style patterns are -- they generally fit straight from the bust to waist and then flare from that point. > If they didn't use corsetry then, how did they get the dresses to > create the look we see in so many paintings -- with the breasts pressed in > and up? Um ... artistic license? Have you ever looked at the breasts in 15th century paintings of nudes? Flesh just doesn't _do_ that. > What exactly were the underpinnings? I've recently seen some > illuminations showing women in what I suppose is a chemise -- about a > mid-calf-length tube dress with straps over the shoulders, kind of like a > modern slip. Was this worn under another underdress? Was this a hot-weather > garment only? All the illustrations I've seen of this style save one are specifically of bath-house attendents in central Europe. (In fact, the majority of them come from a single source.) The one exception was of a respectable woman in bed after childbirth (from some Bohemian source). From this, my _personal_ interpretation is that the garment is, in some fashion, a normal undergarment, but that it would probably be considered indecent to wear in public alone. (Those bath-house girls had a fairly bad reputation, you know ....) Some friends and I refer to this particular outfit as "BBBB", for "Bodacious Bohemian Bath-house Babe". They're really cute. Heather Rose Jones ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 7 Nov 1995 21:53:49 -0800 (PST) From: "Sarah E. Goodman" Subject: Re: Tudor Torso--Pattern Re > ISBN stands for International Standard Book Number so each one should be > unique, no matter where in the world a book is published. If you find > duplicate ISBNs I suggest you contact the publisher. No, but you could find a single book with several ISBNs very easily. Certainly, if there were actually a UK and a US edition (even it the only difference was the currency in which the cover price was marked) you would have two numbers. (Heck, a dump has it's own ISBN.) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 7 Nov 1995 21:58:43 -0800 (PST) From: "Sarah E. Goodman" Subject: Re: H-Costume Digest V3 #243 > You obviously did not see a group wearing perfect Victorian right > down to the top hats, all made of camoflage material. Accessorized > with dogtags. Strauss Waltz Attack Team, I believe. (There is also Kata Barrows "Revolutionarry" War Costume, in camo with a mosquito netting fichu and quilted "don't tread on me" on the underskirt. And the SWAT crew says they also know of a camo houpplande. I still want them all together for "War Through History") ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 8 Nov 1995 01:58:32 -0500 From: Mazelle@aol.com Subject: Re: cotehardies etc. I recently made a cotehardie using the the four piece method. There are seams in the center front and back to allow for the curves of my body. I also inserted gussets under the arms to get the tight fit required. The outfit felt great and looked just about right to me except for some minor adjustments that I will add to the next one, such as gores from the waist down for more skirting and less wasting of fabric. I made it out of linen blend and wear a simple gathered neck, straight sleeve, to the knee, silk chemise. The style of cotehardie varies dependent on country and actual time period. Mazelle@aol.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 8 Nov 1995 03:40:32 -0500 From: kl94ag@badger.ac.BrockU.CA (Kathleen Leggat) Subject: Re: Greaves A while ago Caroline wrote: >So, I hope you won't mind me querying your reference to a 13th century >Bible. Surely this would be an edition of the Vulgate bible, so although >the illustrations would be 13th century, the text would be St Jerome's >(sorry, can't remember date but its early era Christian), in Latin? So, if >there were textual references to 'greaves' this would have to relate to 2nd >or 3rd century AD greaves, not ones which were a new development in the >13th century. Or have I misunderstood your point? > >I understood you didn't get vernacular bibles until late 15th century, and >there wasn't a new latin bible until after the Council of Trent (1563). The Bible was translated into Old English...I read some in class. (Interesting minor changes from the Latin...) Kathleen (Catriona) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 8 Nov 1995 08:55:32 -0500 (EST) From: Astrida E B Schaeffer Subject: Re: cotehardies etc. It's my understanding that the high-bosom effect of cotehardies is achieved by proper cut and the lacing of the garment. Somewhere in the depths of my studio I've got an SCA-published article by a woman whose cotehardies actually achieve this look. Not having the article in hand right now, I can't say whether her interpretation is based on research or is a modern solution; however, if you've ever tried on a dress that's too tight in the chest, you know how even fabric alone, without a corset, can change your bust shape. Also, I'd hesitate to ascribe to artistic license a look which is present in all depictions of women at the time--too much coincidence! Astrida *************************************************************************** Astrida Schaeffer "All life on Earth is a fairy tale in which outlandish creatures pursue impossible lives" - Rutherford Platt ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 08 Nov 95 08:56 CST From: ROBERT@UIAMVS.WEEG.UIOWA.EDU Subject: ISBNs The first few digits of an ISBN specify what country the item was published in, followed by digits for the publisher. Whenever a book is published simulataneously in Europe and In the U.S. it will have 2 ISBNs. For example (Sorry this is such a dull example, but it is what is easily available): Dynamical Systems : Lectures given ... was published by Springer-Verlag in both Berlin 3-540-60047-7 and New York 0-387-60047-7. 0 and 1 are used for Australia, Canada, Ireland, New Zealand, Puerto Rico, South Africa, United Kingdom, USA, and Zimbabwe. 2 is used for French speaking Belgium, french speaking Canada, France, Luxembourg, and French speaking Switzerland. 3 is for Austria, Germany, and Switzerland. As this is severely off topic, I will end here. If you are really interested in this arcane information, ask at a library or bookstore to see "Publishers' International ISBN Directory" Hope this helps. ****************************** Wendy Robertson Serials Cataloging University of Iowa (319) 335-5894 wendy-robertson@uiowa.edu ****************************** ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 8 Nov 1995 9:10:15 -0600 (CST) From: P_SHERYL@KCPL.LIB.MO.US Subject: ISBN numbers Fiona, Speaking as a librarian, I think you gave a pretty good synopsis of the issue. I do not know all of the details about the UK publishing industry, but every edition of a book MUST have its own individual ISBN number. These numbers are used for ordering purposes so each edition must have a unique ISBN so the publisher will understand which edition that you are ordering. If a book is published in the UK & the US in two different editions then they MUST have two different ISBN numbers. HTH! Sheryl J. Nance Kansas City MO Public Library p_sheryl@kcpl.lib.mo.us >At the risk of entering a minefield, I have to agree with both Carole & John, >yet add more detail. This is my understanding of the ISBN system (based on >computer design/programming exercises which involve library systems). > >ISBN numbers are international and should be unique. If ther are not unique, >the system has got stuffed up (so presumably the publishers of the books >need to be notified). This is in agreement with John. Groups of ISBN numbers >are allocated to publishers, who then apply them to their books, >so if one publisher stuffs up, then it may not be picked up until >both books are entered into someone's catalogue! > >However, the IBSN number is connected to the edition of the book. One title, >say "Clothes of British Army" (made up title) which is released in >a hardback edition, then revised for a softback edition, will have >two different ISBN numbers. I think it is every edition is a new ISBN number, >but I wouldn't like to swear to that. So, books that are published >as two separate editions, one for the US & one for the UK (probably for >copyright or related reasons) will have two ISBN numbers. > >This is probably what Carole was referring to. > >I am not a professional working in the book industry or a librarian, so >I am happy for someone to correct me. > >Fiona Thorne ------------------------------ Date: 08 Nov 1995 10:27:22 -0400 (EDT) From: Library - Vineland Research Station Subject: Saw "Persuasion" Hello everyone: I saw the film adaptation of "Persuasion" last night in Toronto. Pleasant enough movie, but the actress playing Anne didn't cut it for me. My husband described her as having a "Bambi caught in the headlights look" and "hunted and furtive". The actor playing Wentworth was capable of expressing an array of subtle and suppressed emotions - Anne just went all "big-eyed" when she should expressed emotion. The costumes were OK - but nothing that made me go "I want that gown!". The younger female characters had appropriately light and filmy gowns (wouldn't mind some of the fabrics) while the middle-aged female characters wore stronger colours and patterns. (Although Lady Russel wore a kerchief at one point which made my husband exclaim "Annie Hall!") I also liked how Mrs. Musgrave, who is an elderly lady, wore the gown more fashionable in the days of her youth. Most of the men's clothing looked like it had just been put on for the first time in that scene, and many of the outerwear looked a bit flimsy and drapey for men's clothing. Sheridan Alder ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 8 Nov 1995 15:42:05 +0000 (GMT) From: "J.F.Scott" Subject: ISBNs Hi Everyone, there seems to have been a lot of confusion about my description of ISBNs - - probably due to my failing to make my point clear enough. It is very possible for a document to have more than one ISBN for all the reasons mentioned - different editions, US vs. UK publishing, hardback vs. paperback, etc. It should not be possible for one ISBN to be assigned to more than one document. That is the point I was trying to make. Thus, giving a person an ISBN _is_ useful and valid when citing a book for them because it is another piece of information that will allow the book shop/library to track down the book for the enquirer. The person may recieve the wrong edition, etc, but they will recieve the correct book. Hope that clarifies things for everyone. John John F.Scott Networked Information Services Advisor j.f.scott@bton.ac.uk University of Brighton, England The right to be heard does not automatically include the right to be taken seriously. -- Hubert Humphrey ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 8 Nov 95 11:23:58 PST From: ches@tristero.io.com Subject: Victorian Hair I have a McCalls Crafts pattern of Victorian Treasures, number 7114, in it it shows how to do the dolls' hair. Well I have a nine week old who thinks that swinging off of mommy's hip length hair is great fun. So I tried the instructions for one of the four hair styles and it works! My question is how did the Victorians keep the fly away strands tucked? Starch? What? (My nine week old is named Victoria) - ------------------------------------- Ciao Ches E-mail: Ches@io.com This message was sent by Chameleon - ------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: 8 Nov 1995 09:50:00 U From: "Carole Newson-Smith" Subject: Re: Tudor Torso--Pattern Re Reply to: RE>>Tudor Torso--Pattern Re On 3 Nov 1995, Carole Newson-Smith wrote: > Folks, keep in mind that ISBN numbers are not necessarily the same > on both sides of the Atlantic. That is, the same book could be offered > for sale in the US and the UK, and have two totally different ISBNs. > Carole Newson-Smith :ISBN stands for International Standard Book Number so each one should be :unique, no matter where in the world a book is published. If you find :duplicate ISBNs I suggest you contact the publisher. : :John Scott Yes, John, they are unique. The US numbers are very different from the UK numbers. But if you have the US number for a book you want and you are not in the US, your local bookseller may have difficulty in getting the book you want. Not all books are offered in multiple countries. Carole ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 7 Nov 1995 22:56:23 -0500 From: loutre@pipeline.com (Denny Stone) Subject: 1770-80 Venetian panniers I'm looking for advice from anyone who has constructed very wide (6+ feet) panniers for museum or theatrical. The gowns, which I have unfortunately not yet seen, are described as having very wide, court presentation-like, skirts which stand at 90 degrees to torso. No sloping from waist to hem with these dresses. I've done the research, been to Waugh's "Corsets and Crinolines", looked at the paintings, read Janet Arnold. I can drape these in a snap and bone them, but I'm still worried that there is not enough support to hold the skirts out at a 90 degree angle from the body. If anyone has built these....how did you do it? Cantelievered supports from edge to center? Hard pannier upper edge? I've got ideas, but am looking for moral support from someone who's already been there. Thanks in advance, Stone ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 8 Nov 1995 10:33:35 -0500 From: deirdre@deeny.MV.COM (Deirdre) Subject: Re: Tudor Torso--Pattern Re Good theory, but wrong. Each different price a specific book is published at is a different ISBN. If a book is published in consumer hardcover, a library edition and in paperback, it'll have three ISBNs. If it's published in two languages, it'll have two ISBNs for those. If it's published by the same company but perhaps has a different distribution in different countries, it may have different ISBNs. Different editions of the same book may (or may not) have different ISBNs (it will almost always change if the price is printed on the cover and the price changes). All you can say about an ISBN is that it's unique and it'll lead you to AN edition of a book which may not be either in print or available in your area. _Deirdre At 10:13 AM 11/7/95, J.F.Scott wrote: > ISBN stands for International Standard Book Number so each one > should be unique, no matter where in the world a book is > published. If you find duplicate ISBNs I suggest you contact > the publisher. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 8 Nov 1995 09:43:53 -0800 (PST) From: Heather Rose Jones Subject: Re: cotehardies etc. On Wed, 8 Nov 1995, Astrida E B Schaeffer wrote: > It's my understanding that the high-bosom effect of cotehardies is > achieved by proper cut and the lacing of the garment. Somewhere in the ... > change your bust shape. Also, I'd hesitate to ascribe to artistic license > a look which is present in all depictions of women at the time--too much > coincidence! Ah, on the contrary, if absolutely _every_ artistic depiction of a woman in a particular era features a particular element that is not a normal fact of nature (like having two arms, for example) that should set alarm bells jangling in your mind of its own accord. The central task of artists in most pre-modern cultures has been to portray the "ideal", rather than to produce accurate depictions of individuals. There have been periods when every artistic representation of a woman showed her with very long slender fingers. Rather than postulate some sort of finger-stretching cult, we can simply conclude that long slender fingers were considered an ideal of beauty. Similarly, if every portrait of women (which may or may not be true -- I haven't made a study) in the cotehardie era _including_the_nudes_ shows the breasts in a gravity-defying high posture, then it is more reasonable to conclude that this was an artistic ideal of beauty than to necessarily conclude that it's an accurate representation of how all women looked at the time. Heather Rose Jones ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 8 Nov 1995 12:17:30 -0500 (EST) From: Drea Leed Subject: Re: cotehardies etc. I fitted my cotehardie three times to get the fit I wanted. Mine is made out of eight sections, princess seamed along the bust and on the side back (I saw a painting in the book _Late Gothic Europe 1400-1600_ that showed these) and flared with lots of gores from the hip down. Drea Leed On Tue, 7 Nov 1995 Gaelscot@aol.com wrote: > I am looking for some advice on how to cut and fit cotehardies and overgowns > from the mid-fifteenth century. Does anyone know, or is it all "best guess" > work? Should they be princess-seam-like, or in four pieces with lots of > gores? If they didn't use corsetry then, how did they get the dresses to > create the look we see in so many paintings -- with the breasts pressed in > and up? What exactly were the underpinnings? I've recently seen some > illuminations showing women in what I suppose is a chemise -- about a > mid-calf-length tube dress with straps over the shoulders, kind of like a > modern slip. Was this worn under another underdress? Was this a hot-weather > garment only? Finally, I am looking for hints on making a German overgown > with pleats in the front seen in Kohler's book and in several Durer prints, > for starters. The pleats start below the breast and seem to comprise a center > panel that is sewn down, or something, to about waist level and then let > open. There was some talk about it on this list about a year ago, I think. > Has anyone made this, and if so, how? > > I would appreciate any replies to this list or to me at > > gaelscot@aol.com > > Thanks! Gail Finke > > PS: Someone a while ago said that she knew how to do organ pipe pleating. > Unfortunately, I forget who. Someone asked me how the other day. If you are > still on this list, will you please e-mail me privately? Thanks! > ******************************************* We've secretly replaced their dilithium crystals with new Folger's Crystals. Now let's watch them to to warp. ------------------------------ End of H-Costume Digest V3 #245 ******************************* A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to subscribe to that instead, send the command lines: unsubscribe h-costume-digest subscribe h-costume end in the body of a message to majordomo@lunch.engr.sgi.com. Thanks and enjoy the list!