From: owner-h-costume-digest (H-Costume Digest) To: h-costume-digest@lunch.engr.sgi.com Subject: H-Costume Digest V3 #249 Reply-To: h-costume Sender: owner-h-costume-digest@lunch.engr.sgi.com Errors-To: owner-h-costume-digest@lunch.engr.sgi.com Precedence: bulk H-Costume Digest Monday, November 13 1995 Volume 3, Number 249 Compilation copyright (C) 1995 Diane Barlow Close and Gretchen Miller Use in whole prohibited. Individual articles are the property of the author. Seek permission from that author before reprinting or quoting elsewhere. Important Addresses: Send submissions to: h-costume@lunch.engr.sgi.com (or reply to this message). Adds/drops/archives: majordomo@lunch.engr.sgi.com Real, live person: h-costume-request@andrew.cmu.edu Topics: Knitting Re: Panne Velour Re: quilting Re: Panne Velour Cleaning velvet Re: Cleaning velvet Re: Knitting Ack!!!! Re: Panne Velour washing velvet Re: Panne Velour knitting in Marian portraits Re: knitting in Marian portraits FW: Head Gear Re: Gloves as Protection for late 15 cent. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 12 Nov 1995 08:40:46 -0800 From: Stella Nemeth Subject: Knitting Bill wrote: >This relates to the knitting Madonnas. These seem to stem from the Bible's >"seamless shirt" requirement. This is not a representation of a normal >woman doing an everyday activity: this is the Madonna involved in Christ's >Passion. As such I think they are out of the running for consideration of >normal activities: certainly if they are (as a class) the only >representations of people knitting. They might be knitting: they might be >knitting shirts: knitted shirts might have been around generally: they >might have been common - but the Madonnas are witnesses to this situation >with an agenda of their own: their evidence is "tainted" and should only be >used to corroborate, not prove. There is one small problem with all of this. The paintings show someone knitting a garment that could only be done one way (pre 1950) and that is with 4 or 5 double pointed knitting needles. The needles are being handled in exactly the way they would have to be handled in order to make a seamless shirt, and so are all of the parts of the shirt. Until about 1970 no one was making this kind of shirt: one that had NO seams. If you look at the history of modern knitting, it took us about 130 to 150 years to go from the knit rectangles and put them together methods of making a sweater to the make it all in one piece using circular needles method. So the fact that she is doing it right is rather important. I think there are a couple of things we can say. First of all there was knitting, and it existed earlier than is usually believed. Second of all, some people knew how to do very complicated kinds of knitting a lot earlier than there is any documented evidence for actual pieces of knitting. The reason is actually quite simple. The last time I took a sweater apart to reknit it was in the late 1960s or early 1970s. That is what everyone else did with the old yarn too until the yarn itself fell apart. We know that dresses got remade. We have dresses dating from the mid-19th Century whose fabric belongs to a period 50 to 75 years earlier and where parts of the dress are pieced. People were still remaking dresses in the 1940s. No one does a whole lot of that now, so we tend to forget it. The big difference between yarn and fabric is that it is impossible to tell how many times a piece of yarn has been reknitted. Stella s.nemeth@ix.netcom.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 12 Nov 1995 09:44:42 -0800 (PST) From: Heather Rose Jones Subject: Re: Panne Velour On Sun, 12 Nov 1995, Stephen & Krista Fraser wrote: > I would like to make a 13th century style gown to wear to SCA events etc. > My question is this...eventhough panne velour was not around then, would it > be a completely unpardonable sin to make the gown out of this material?? I > just really love the stuff and I think its so pretty, but would it be > terribly out of place? Do you want to know whether it would be "terribly out of place" in the overall context of SCA costuming, or whether it would be "terribly out of place" among SCA costumers, or whether it would be out of place in the 13th century. I think you know the answer to the third or you wouldn't even be asking :) If you've been to any SCA events at all, you ought to know the answer to the first -- just about anything goes as long as a nearsighted person couldn't tell the difference from twenty feet away. So I'll give you my opinion on whether SCA-folk who have a special interest in costuming would find it out of place: yes. Assuming that by "velour" you mean the knit-based fabric, it simply has the wrong look and feel. If it's a matter of already having the fabric and wanting to make something out of it, why not a nice fancy mundane holiday dress? Heather Rose Jones ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 12 Nov 1995 21:57:37 +0100 (MET) From: Ingela Sjömark Subject: Re: quilting According to Kathleen Leggat: > > > I went to my fabric store and showed my first attempt at machine > quilting to the clerk who was giving me advise about quilting. He was > floored. It seems that it is difficult to zig zag with metallic thread. > So, here's how to do it, along with how I'm quilting things. > > The thread I'm using is from Walmart. It comes on a big spool, and > is called Fil Metallise. It's 60% Polyester, 40% Metallic, and it is only > printed in French, leading me to believe its...French...(Wow, such deductive > powers!) > > I find it holds together much, much better than Guterman. > > I lowered my tension down to almost nothing...half-way between 1 and 0. > > For the quilting, I drew the lines on the backing fabric. After > pinning all layers together, I machine basted in verticle lines several > inches apart in a contrasting thread. I then machine basted along my > (diagonal) stitching lines with gold thread. I pulled out the contrasting > basting, then stitched over my gold threads, right side up, with a > buttonhold stitch. > > It looks great. > > Kathleen (Catriona) > > Hello! How much does it cost, and do you know if it is possible to order it by mail? I live in Sweden, so I can't get that kind of thread here... But if it isn't too expensive I might send you money to buy it for me? Please write and tell me. /Ingela - -- /~~\________________________/~~\ ! oo ! ! ! \__/~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~\_/ \ Ingela Sj|mark \ \ Ingrid S|mmerska \ \ \ \ ingela@ludd.luth.se \ \ \ /~~\___________________________~~\ ! oo ! ! ! \__/~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~\_/ ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 12 Nov 95 16:28:13 PST From: ches@tristero.io.com Subject: Re: Panne Velour - ---------------Original Message--------------- On Sun, 12 Nov 1995, Stephen & Krista Fraser wrote: > I would like to make a 13th century style gown to wear to SCA events etc. > My question is this...eventhough panne velour was not around then, would it > be a completely unpardonable sin to make the gown out of this material?? I > just really love the stuff and I think its so pretty, but would it be > terribly out of place? Assuming that by "velour" you mean the knit-based fabric, it simply has the wrong look and feel. If it's a matter of already having the fabric and wanting to make something out of it, why not a nice fancy mundane holiday dress? Heather Rose Jones - ----------End of Original Message---------- Panne Velour has the look of crushed velvet. I have been to many SCA events where crushed velvet is used in Cavalier costumes. Since it does not even look like a knit it should be ok to use and not terribly out of place. BUT, do not tell anyone it is a velour or a knit, tell them a wonderful personna story of the velvet falling into the misfortune of being washed by a new servent that did not know how to handle velvet thus creating crushed velvet and DO NOT enter the garment in any competition! - ------------------------------------- Ciao Ches E-mail: Ches@io.com This message was sent by Chameleon - ------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 12 Nov 1995 15:08:04 -1000 From: Jan McEwen Subject: Cleaning velvet Ches wrote: > falling into the misfortune of being washed by a new servent that did not know > how to handle velvet thus creating crushed velvet and DO NOT enter the So, how *does* one clean velvet? When I mentioned that I was planning to wash the velvet I'd bought for my 12th Night garb (cheap velvet at Woolworth's, but it looks okay) before I cut it, one of my friends nearly had a fit and told me that you *never* wash velvet. Must I dry clean then? (Rather expensive, I'd like to avoid this if possible). Catriona Stewart - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Jan McEwen, Department of Horticulture, University of Hawaii SCA: Catriona Stewart, Barony of the Western Seas, Caid Internet: jmcewen@hawaii.edu ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 13 Nov 1995 12:46:31 +1000 From: M.DEVOGEL@student.anu.edu.au (Miesje de Vogel) Subject: Re: Cleaning velvet >Ches wrote: > > >> falling into the misfortune of being washed by a new servent that did >>not know >> how to handle velvet thus creating crushed velvet and DO NOT enter the > >So, how *does* one clean velvet? When I mentioned that I was planning to >wash the velvet I'd bought for my 12th Night garb (cheap velvet at >Woolworth's, but it looks okay) before I cut it, one of my friends nearly >had a fit and told me that you *never* wash velvet. Must I dry clean >then? (Rather expensive, I'd like to avoid this if possible). > > Catriona Stewart Maybe I've just had luck, but I washed mine, hot water and everything, then hung it out (flat) on the line, then ironed it pile side down {With two thick towels underneath}... And it looks fine - no crushed effect, very little colour loss. Miesje. (Ps, I only use natural fibres - I don't know what the effect would be on polyester (etc.) stuffs) ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 12 Nov 1995 18:10:22 -0800 (PST) From: Heather Rose Jones Subject: Re: Knitting On Sun, 12 Nov 1995, Stella Nemeth wrote: > > There is one small problem with all of this. The paintings show someone > knitting a garment that could only be done one way (pre 1950) and that is > with 4 or 5 double pointed knitting needles. The needles are being handled > in exactly the way they would have to be handled in order to make a seamless > shirt, and so are all of the parts of the shirt. > > Until about 1970 no one was making this kind of shirt: one that had NO > seams. If you look at the history of modern knitting, it took us about 130 > to 150 years to go from the knit rectangles and put them together methods of > making a sweater to the make it all in one piece using circular needles > method. So the fact that she is doing it right is rather important. I rather wonder if there is a typo somewhere in the above. Certainly people were making seamless knit garments using either multiple double-pointed needles or circular needles prior to about 1970. I know from personal observation that my own grandmother was doing it in the early '60s. My impression has been that the technique of knitting flat "pattern pieces" and then sewing them together is the one that is quite recent (and to some extent a response to the tragic loss of complex knitting skills in the general population ). Now I'm a bit curious as to what you _meant_ to say in the above. Heather Rose Jones ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 13 Nov 1995 02:14:15 -0500 From: kl94ag@badger.ac.BrockU.CA (Kathleen Leggat) Subject: Ack!!!! Help!! Please!! I desperately need to find someone who has Period Patterns female Tudor pattern. Somehow I have managed to lose the instructions. I don't need them for most of it, but I'm not sure what to do with the undersleeves! Could someone with this pattern...or a kind-hearted merchant who stocks it...please, please, please let me know what to do with the undersleeves?? And quickly? If not, could people offer suggestions? The piece is shaped like a wedge with curved ends. The larger curved end has a bit that juts out about an inch and is straight. The jutted out bit is 15 inches long and centred on the large curved edge. Kathleen (Catriona) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 13 Nov 1995 08:53:26 -0600 (CST) From: Teresa Shannon Subject: Re: Panne Velour > ---------------Original Message--------------- > On Sun, 12 Nov 1995, Stephen & Krista Fraser wrote: > > I would like to make a 13th century style gown to wear to SCA events etc. > > My question is this...eventhough panne velour was not around then, would it > > be a completely unpardonable sin to make the gown out of this material?? I > > just really love the stuff and I think its so pretty, but would it be > > terribly out of place? > ----------End of Original Message---------- > Panne Velour has the look of crushed velvet. I have been to many SCA events > where crushed velvet is used in Cavalier costumes. Since it does not even look > like a knit it should be ok to use and not terribly out of place. BUT, do not tell > anyone it is a velour or a knit, tell them a wonderful personna story of the velvet > falling into the misfortune of being washed by a new servent that did not know > how to handle velvet thus creating crushed velvet and DO NOT enter the > garment in any competition! > ------------------------------------- > Ciao > Ches I wouldn't explain it at all promote the cut of the dress and say it was an experiment, there has been no reference to velvet (any) for clothing in England in the thirteenth century, even the king did not start buying it for clothing until the mid-fourteenth century. When velvet was first being brought in it was being used for bed coverings in the 1320s. Alla the Great Wardrobe accounts. I don't know as much about Italian 13th century silk production (thats were it was made in the 14th c.) but if this is supposed to represent a northern European 13th c. dress the velvet, for any personna excuse is incorrect. Just use the stuff and don't make excuses for it, concentrate on the correct cut without guilt. Teresa ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 13 Nov 1995 10:05:40 -0400 (EDT) From: FALCON@SNYCORVA.CORTLAND.EDU Subject: washing velvet I have washed my cotton velvet gown many _many_ times with no ill effects, and dried it just like a pair of regular jeans. It has held up remarkably well, although it did shed al lot in the wash at first, so beware of lots of lint. - --Bernadette ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 13 Nov 1995 08:16:18 -0500 From: deirdre@deeny.MV.COM (Deirdre) Subject: Re: Panne Velour At 9:44 AM 11/12/95, Heather Rose Jones wrote: > If it's a matter of already having the fabric and wanting to make > something out of it, why not a nice fancy mundane holiday dress? Tips for Panne Velvet (which I love too, btw): Makes VERY nice pillows for the couch. Mine are trimmed in silver piping. The cats absolutely adore them and sit on them all the time. Nice dresses. No, it doesn't look period and no I wouldn't recommend it for SCA garb. But by all means wear it for something! I keep threatening to make a palazzo jumpsuit out of the stuff. _Deirdre ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 13 Nov 1995 13:34:40 -0600 From: reaves@tuvok.marian.edu (Anne Reaves) Subject: knitting in Marian portraits Take a look at the Museum of London's textile book for references to medieval pullovers made with the same techniques in the portraits. Most of these paintings (listed in Robert Wyss's "Die Handarbeitung der Maria") date from the period when silk reliquary bags were fashionable to order and donate. These bags, like medieval stockings, have the characteristic side-seam of in the round knitting. As Stella pointed out, only moderns would be warped enough to separate a round project into plaguey pieces. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 13 Nov 1995 13:50:55 -0500 (EST) From: Sharron Fina Subject: Re: knitting in Marian portraits On Mon, 13 Nov 1995, Anne Reaves wrote: > donate. These bags, like medieval stockings, have the characteristic > side-seam of in the round knitting. As Stella pointed out, only moderns > would be warped enough to separate a round project into plaguey pieces. > > I'm confused. I knit, and there is no side seam in round knitting. That is the point of round knitting, no seams. And, I do believe the point being made earlier was that round knitting before 1970 or so was only possible on 4 or 5 needles. I believe about that time the one piece circular needle came about. (no documentation, I just don't recollect ever seeing any family member ever using a circular needle, and we had some avid knitters.) Sharron Fina sfina@retina.anatomy.upenn.edu ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 13 Nov 95 14:19:40 PST From: ches@tristero.io.com Subject: FW: Head Gear Here is a misdirected message that went to an SCA board, can anyone help her? - ---------------Original Message--------------- ['nother message from the webpage] I am Katherine la Just de la Mer, of Blath An Or in Seattle, Wa. I am searching for any info on 1450-1550 head gear worn with a houpland in southern France and Italy. I need patterns and instructions. My email is mbrazonis@mbrazonis.seanet.com. - ----------End of Original Message---------- - ------------------------------------- Ciao Ches E-mail: Ches@io.com This message was sent by Chameleon - ------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 13 Nov 1995 18:36:30 +0100 From: j.w.hubbard@sheffield.ac.uk (Bill Hubbard) Subject: Re: Gloves as Protection for late 15 cent. Dear All, I know that this glove/gauntlet discussion might be getting a little armour-based as opposed to clothes, but I hope the ideas of evidence are relevant to Historic Clothing. Can I suggest that if anyone wants to talk just about gauntlets we do it off list? >If we know they wore gloves (snip) and know that they were >pretty well shod, how likely is it that a man didn't own gloves and >how likely is he not to take/wear them on campaign? This is not an >especially warm/dry country. Yes, seems logical: and one point of view is to argue from logic: another is to argue from the evidence. Both approaches have their faults, but I think evidence is safer if you want to be sure - see my previous posts (regarding greaves) on the danger of arguing from logic. Depends on what it is you want to do. In reconstructing clothes etc, one approach can be too loose and the other can be too restrictive. Just as a thought, the farmers I know don't generally wear gloves even in the most bitter weather, let alone in the warmer (campaigning) seasons. That is, it might be dangerous to argue for gloves from a modern sense of comfort or need. I wear leather gloves when I fight because I don't want scrapes and gouges, but I wouldn't argue for their authenticity: I just make sure they look bland and unremarkable and take them off when I am not fighting and for photos! >I don't think I've ever seen gauntlets on a common soldier... please >give references! Off the top of the bookshelf, there are illustrations showing this from English and French sources in two books (both usefully remaindered): Koch "Medieval Warfare" and Edge and Paddock "Arms and Armour of the Medieval Knight". These are Chroniques de Froissart, page 182 of Med. War and The Beauchamp Chronicles and the Master of the WA's illustration of a double line of Burgundians - both on page 132 of A&A of the Med Kinght. David refers to the Burgundian line picture: I would interpret the pole-arm men as wearing gauntlets (possibly the English-Gauntlet (facon d'Anglaise)), given the angular nature of the hand-backs. The other two references are very clear, though. Regards, Bill ------------------------------ End of H-Costume Digest V3 #249 ******************************* A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to subscribe to that instead, send the command lines: unsubscribe h-costume-digest subscribe h-costume end in the body of a message to majordomo@lunch.engr.sgi.com. Thanks and enjoy the list!