From: owner-h-costume-digest (H-Costume Digest) To: h-costume-digest@lunch.engr.sgi.com Subject: H-Costume Digest V3 #250 Reply-To: h-costume Sender: owner-h-costume-digest@lunch.engr.sgi.com Errors-To: owner-h-costume-digest@lunch.engr.sgi.com Precedence: bulk H-Costume Digest Tuesday, November 14 1995 Volume 3, Number 250 Compilation copyright (C) 1995 Diane Barlow Close and Gretchen Miller Use in whole prohibited. Individual articles are the property of the author. Seek permission from that author before reprinting or quoting elsewhere. Important Addresses: Send submissions to: h-costume@lunch.engr.sgi.com (or reply to this message). Adds/drops/archives: majordomo@lunch.engr.sgi.com Real, live person: h-costume-request@andrew.cmu.edu Topics: Pith Helmets Re: knitting in Marian portraits Re: Material for Tunic Re: Material for Tunic dressers N ressers Looking for Lists Re: Panne Velour Re: children's clothes Knitting cleaning velvet Re: costume pattern request Re: Gloves as Protection for late 15 cent. Re: Looking for Lists circular knitting needles Re: Material for Tunic Re: costume pattern request Re: Material for Tunic Re: Material for Tunic ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 13 Nov 1995 14:50:15 -0800 From: kondoa@ucs.orst.edu Subject: Pith Helmets I found my "real" pith helmet at a large Asian import store. It's some sort of bamboo or reed strips with a downcurving front brim. I don't know if this is a "period" style, I just bought it for a "safari" costume. Alison ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 14 Nov 1995 10:41:18 +1100 (EST) From: Katrina Hunt Subject: Re: knitting in Marian portraits Believe it or not the Guernsey knitters (who knit in the round almost exclusively) knit a fake seam in the sides of their garments. So maybe there isn't actually a seam in the bags just an illusional shaping. Katrina ******************************************************************************* * * * David and Katrina Hunt | thehunts@canberra.dialix.oz.au * * Stephen Aldred & Mathilde Adycote | 24 Edwards St Higgins ACT Australia * Baron & Baroness Politarchopolis | Phone (06) 254 3059 * * * ******************************************************************************* ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 13 Nov 1995 19:12:24 -0500 From: Sanni1@aol.com Subject: Re: Material for Tunic I've always liked old linen tablecloths. You can usually find plain ones in colors like russet, brown, forest green, gold, etc. They are nicely worn and really soft. Also, linen is certainly a period fabric. I've had one for over 10 years--it's the most comfortable thing in my closet. Try estate sales and junk shops for good deals. Sanni ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 13 Nov 95 17:54:24 PST From: julie_adams@corp.Cubic.COM Subject: Re: Material for Tunic You could always dye the linen tablecloths if you can only find white.... ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 13 Nov 95 17:48:53 PST From: DGC3%Rates%FAR@go50.comp.pge.com Subject: dressers N ressers I have two more names to contribute for historically informed hairdressers in the San Francisco East Bay area. Both are also very good with contemporary dos, dyes, and perms. And they both work Saturdays. Lora Trimble at Hairshapers Club, 179 West Calavaras Blvd in Milpitas, 408/263-4357. Lora is a costumer herself and will understand the vocabulary. She can also give you an otherworldly fantasy look. Lora is a regular on the "killer hair panel" given by the Greater Bay Area Costumers Guild. Marjorie Wagner at New York, N.Y., 6208 Claremont Ave, Berkeley 510/945-6463. Marjorie has been doing my hair for nearly 20 years, as well as the hair of many of my friends and relations. When our Bay Area English Regency Society put on an Assembly in 1990, she did sets and comb-outs for hours before the Grand Ball. Marjorie is not a history buff, but she can look at a picture and make something similar happen to your hair using modern technology. She enjoys the creativity of doing historic hairdos. Be sure to tell them in advance what you want, so they block out sufficient time. Bring lots of pins, ornaments, and hair pieces-- more than you might think you need -- as you'll be wearing them home. Danine - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Danine Cozzens Internet: dgc3@pge.com Pacific Gas and Electric Company San Francisco, CA - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 14 Nov 1995 00:27:04 -0500 From: Damienne01@aol.com Subject: Looking for Lists Hello, I hope you will excuse this intrusion on historical costume discussion. I am looking for e-mail lists for re-enactment/living history/etc. groups and was hoping that some of you good folks might be able to point me in the direction(s). Thank you very much for your help. Damienne01@aol.com for Rick Howard ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 13 Nov 1995 23:01:33 -0800 From: fishcat@hooked.net (Trystan L. Bass) Subject: Re: Panne Velour sunfire@muskoka.com (Stephen & Krista Fraser) wrote: >I would like to make a 13th century style gown to wear to SCA events etc. >My question is this...eventhough panne velour was not around then, would it >be a completely unpardonable sin to make the gown out of this material?? I >just really love the stuff and I think its so pretty, but would it be >terribly out of place? Now here's a voice from the historically-challenged (to counter all the "no, it's not period" posts)-- ===> Go for it! <==== I know the fabric of which you speak and it is *lovely,* often comes in rich dark colors, and hangs beautifully on the body. I'm not in the SCA, but I've seen similar fabrics worn at their events, so it doesn't seem too taboo. And just think, the worst thing anyone can say is that your gown looks like the French princess' gowns in "Braveheart"!!! fishcat@hooked.net @->->-- Trystan L. Bass --<-<-@ TrystBass@aol.com http://www.hooked.net/users/fishcat/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 14 Nov 1995 02:12:12 -0500 From: NeenH@aol.com Subject: Re: children's clothes My era is 1775-85. Here's what I know about kids' clothes: Boys and girls mostly dressed like the adults. Baby boys and girls mostly dressed alike. They were considered babies until they were 7ish. At Plimouth Plantation one woman told me that her son was breeched when his father declared him fit to start helping with the serious work, at 7 yrs. (1st person interpretation is great, isn't it?). My kids wear just shifts during the summer, and simple frock dresses over them when it's colder, with sashes and aprons, depending on what we are doing, and hats, of course. Kids clothes get constructed so that they are adjustable for growth, tucks at hems and overlapping vertical closings that are tied or pinned. This must have been true before the 18th C, too! Colleen Humphreys ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 14 Nov 1995 07:39:29 -0500 From: Gary Stephens Subject: Knitting >On Sun, 12 Nov 1995, Stella Nemeth wrote: >> Until about 1970 no one was making this kind of shirt: one that had NO >> seams. If you look at the history of modern knitting, it took us about 130 >> to 150 years to go from the knit rectangles and put them together methods of >> making a sweater to the make it all in one piece using circular needles >> method. So the fact that she is doing it right is rather important. And then Heather Rose Jones replied: >I rather wonder if there is a typo somewhere in the above. Certainly >people were making seamless knit garments using either multiple >double-pointed needles or circular needles prior to about 1970. I know >from personal observation that my own grandmother was doing it in the >early '60s. My impression has been that the technique of knitting flat >"pattern pieces" and then sewing them together is the one that is quite >recent (and to some extent a response to the tragic loss of complex >knitting skills in the general population ). Now I'm a bit curious >as to what you _meant_ to say in the above. Might I point out that socks have been knitted in a circular fashion for a very long time? My greatgrandmother knitted umpteen socks for the WWI fellows in this fashion. And I'm sure her greatgrandmother did as well, as socks have been tubes for a very, very long time. If they could do it for socks, surely these thrifty women could do it for shirts? Lorina Stephens garys@flexnet.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 14 Nov 1995 07:39:24 -0500 From: Gary Stephens Subject: cleaning velvet Catriona Stewart wrote: >So, how *does* one clean velvet? When I mentioned that I was planning to >wash the velvet I'd bought for my 12th Night garb (cheap velvet at >Woolworth's, but it looks okay) before I cut it, one of my friends nearly >had a fit and told me that you *never* wash velvet. Must I dry clean >then? (Rather expensive, I'd like to avoid this if possible). I have washed both cotton and polyester velvets in the machine on delicate cycle, cold wash/cold rinse, and machine dried on a permanent press setting for years without harm. Just be sure to use a delicate cycle to wash, so that the spin action of the washer doesn't crease the velvet, and to use a permanent press cycle on the dryer so that the cooling action releases any wrinkles. I never have to iron. Just take straight out of the dryer and hang. Honest. Lorina Stephens garys@flexnet.com ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 11 Nov 1995 12:42:05 -0800 (PST) From: Rhodry Subject: Re: costume pattern request > Failing that, AHENCK@american.edu (Anita F. Henck), per a post on > alt.sewing, just inherited a couple hundred patterns dating from the > period. You might want to email her and see if she has one. > > snip > > At 12:37 AM 11/9/95, David Dill wrote: > > Hi! I am looking for a pattern to make a 1969-looking > > suede coat with fringe, such as was worn by many > > hippies of the day. > You may want to check your local thrift stores. They often have patterns and as far as I can tell, none of them are from the last two decades. - Rhodry Member Life East of Auburn, Principality of Cynagua ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 9 Nov 1995 08:16:16 -0800 (PST) From: Rhodry Subject: Re: Gloves as Protection for late 15 cent. On Wed, 8 Nov 1995, Bill Hubbard wrote: > > If you want to have hand-protection, then metal gauntlets are your answer > for late 15th cent. Europe. There are two forms: with seperate fingers of > overlapping lames, and mitten-gauntlets (modern term), with the fingers > protected by one to seven (or so) articulated plates stretching acoss the > width of the fingers. > These latter seem to have been (by manuscipt illustrations) common enough > for the ordinary foot-soldier to wear. Most of them, however, are shown > with bare hands. Owning a pair of mitten-gauntlets, I can assert that you will want foam padding and leather gloves. I use thin leather gloves in mine and replace them once a year. There will be spots in the gauntlets that "bite" your hands. This is why you will want the gloves. Because of these factors, I have trouble believing that soldiers, knights, whatever you want to call them did NOT wear something in them. However, I have not done any research on the topic. > I have not seen any evidence of hand protection or gloves which are not > metal gauntlets for the War of the Roses period. Metal gauntlets can be a > bit more awkward to make than leather gloves, but I suspect they are the > authentic answer. In the states there are many armours who could make these for you. I would image the same applies in the UK. - Rhodry ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 14 Nov 1995 16:07:21 -0500 (EST) From: Karen Mercedes Subject: Re: Looking for Lists I'm not sure about mailing lists. There is a news group called alt.living-history (or alt.history-living...I can't recall which). You may want to check it out. It seems to be equally populated by sca-ers and Civil War re-enacters. Also, if you're interested in military re-enactments, you should check out alt.war and soc.history.military, which get a number of announcements of re-enactment events throughout the year. Karen Mercedes mercedes@access.digex.net +--------------------------------------------------+ | You know, it never seems to occur to people that | | a man might just want to write a piece of music. | | -- Ralph Vaughan Williams | +--------------------------------------------------+ ===== On Tue, 14 Nov 1995 Damienne01@aol.com wrote: > Hello, > > I hope you will excuse this intrusion on historical costume discussion. > > I am looking for e-mail lists for re-enactment/living history/etc. groups and > was hoping that some of you good folks might be able to point me in the > direction(s). > > Thank you very much for your help. > > Damienne01@aol.com for Rick Howard > ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 14 Nov 1995 16:32:18 -0600 From: reaves@tuvok.marian.edu (Anne Reaves) Subject: circular knitting needles Sharron Fina thought that circular needles were introduced in the 1970s. In Rutt's History of Knitting, find the speculation that the Scandinavians introduced circular needles, but the fact that they were advertised in England in 1928. Whoever invented them must have done so prior to that date. Yes, knitting in the round does have a "side seam" because it is spiral, not truly circular. In plain knitting this is not very visible, but it is in color work or elaborately patterned designs. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 14 Nov 1995 16:45:53 -0500 (EST) From: pursel darlene elizabeth 673761TP1 Subject: Re: Material for Tunic If you are going for an authentic look, wool was the main fabric of the day, or very heavy cotton. Any colors used in the 12th century were those that could be gotten from nature, lots of browns, greens, greys, etc. Darlene On Sun, 12 Nov 1995, Stephen & Krista Fraser wrote: > Hello again! I'm wondering what type of material would be appropriate for > a wearable 12th Century English man's tunic...I don't want to spend tons of > money (as I don't have tons of money) but I'd like the right effect. Also > what colours would be appropriate? > > Krista > sunfire@muskoka.com > > ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 14 Nov 1995 16:48:23 -0500 (EST) From: Karen Mercedes Subject: Re: costume pattern request As I posted before (and am still awaiting any response), I have one of these jackets and will be happy to sell it. Then whoever buys it can either use it (and not have to make another), or deconstruct it. Let me know if you're interested. Karen Mercedes mercedes@access.digex.net +--------------------------------------------------+ | You know, it never seems to occur to people that | | a man might just want to write a piece of music. | | -- Ralph Vaughan Williams | +--------------------------------------------------+ ===== On Sat, 11 Nov 1995, Rhodry wrote: > > Failing that, AHENCK@american.edu (Anita F. Henck), per a post on > > alt.sewing, just inherited a couple hundred patterns dating from the > > period. You might want to email her and see if she has one. > > > > snip > > > > At 12:37 AM 11/9/95, David Dill wrote: > > > Hi! I am looking for a pattern to make a 1969-looking > > > suede coat with fringe, such as was worn by many > > > hippies of the day. > > > > You may want to check your local thrift stores. They often have patterns > and as far as I can tell, none of them are from the last two decades. > > - Rhodry > Member Life East of Auburn, Principality of Cynagua > > ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 14 Nov 1995 17:15:56 -0500 (EST) From: Susan Carroll-Clark Subject: Re: Material for Tunic greetings! Darlene posted, regarding 12th century dress-- > > If you are going for an authentic look, wool was the main fabric of the > day, or very heavy cotton. Wool, yes. Cotton, no. Heavy cotton can be an OK substitute for wool if economy is desired. > Any colors used in the 12th century were > those that could be gotten from nature, lots of browns, greens, >greys, etc. Again--yes and no. Just how wide the available colour palette was is sometimes grossly underestimated--at least for the upper classes. Mordants and exotic dyestuffs can create some pretty spectacular colours, and even basic natural dyes can create vivid blues, wine-purples and brick reds. Colours did tend to be less brilliant than some of those obtainable today with chemical dyes, but please, don't think you're limited to "earth tones". If you want a further hint, have a look at the Bayeaux Tapestry. Many of the colours of wool therein are quite vivid, despite over 900 years of aging. cheers! Susan Carroll-Clark sclark@epas.utoronto.ca ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 Nov 1995 09:25:49 +1100 (EST) From: Katrina Hunt Subject: Re: Material for Tunic On Tue, 14 Nov 1995, pursel darlene elizabeth 673761TP1 wrote: > If you are going for an authentic look, wool was the main fabric of the > day, or very heavy cotton. Any colors used in the 12th century were > those that could be gotten from nature, lots of browns, greens, greys, etc. Not to mention bright blues (from woad and indigo etc), reds (from madder etc), yellows (from saffron, onions etc), purple (well if you were very rich). Bright pink has also been around at least since then. As for materials. We live in interesting times. For us cotton is very cheap, for 12th century people it was very expensive. Flax, on the other hand, was easily grown, spun and woven, so linen was more common. Silk was also readily available at this time as people returned from the crusades and the trade routes opened up. Wool, of course, was readily available too. I would be inclined to go with your budget, just stick to natural fibres. Katrina ******************************************************************************* * * * David and Katrina Hunt | thehunts@canberra.dialix.oz.au * * Stephen Aldred & Mathilde Adycote | 24 Edwards St Higgins ACT Australia * Baron & Baroness Politarchopolis | Phone (06) 254 3059 * * * ******************************************************************************* ------------------------------ End of H-Costume Digest V3 #250 ******************************* A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to subscribe to that instead, send the command lines: unsubscribe h-costume-digest subscribe h-costume end in the body of a message to majordomo@lunch.engr.sgi.com. Thanks and enjoy the list!