From: owner-h-costume-digest (H-Costume Digest) To: h-costume-digest@lunch.engr.sgi.com Subject: H-Costume Digest V3 #251 Reply-To: h-costume Sender: owner-h-costume-digest@lunch.engr.sgi.com Errors-To: owner-h-costume-digest@lunch.engr.sgi.com Precedence: bulk H-Costume Digest Wednesday, November 15 1995 Volume 3, Number 251 Compilation copyright (C) 1995 Diane Barlow Close and Gretchen Miller Use in whole prohibited. Individual articles are the property of the author. Seek permission from that author before reprinting or quoting elsewhere. Important Addresses: Send submissions to: h-costume@lunch.engr.sgi.com (or reply to this message). Adds/drops/archives: majordomo@lunch.engr.sgi.com Real, live person: h-costume-request@andrew.cmu.edu Topics: Re: Panne Velour Re: Material for Tunic Washing Velvet Re: Victorian fichus Re: Gloves as Protection. Sorted. Re: Ack!!!! re-dying silk Re: Material for Tunic Re: Material for Tunic European Update Looking for Lists 19th Century Maternity Clothes In Search of Starch Re: In Search of Starch ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 14 Nov 1995 17:50:24 -0500 From: sunfire@muskoka.com (Stephen & Krista Fraser) Subject: Re: Panne Velour Thanks for the many opinions on the matter! I've decided to "go for it" and try to create a beautiful medieval - style - gown. Krista Fraser sunfire@muskoka.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 14 Nov 1995 17:24:42 -0500 (EST) From: Drea Leed Subject: Re: Material for Tunic On Tue, 14 Nov 1995, pursel darlene elizabeth 673761TP1 wrote: > If you are going for an authentic look, wool was the main fabric of the > day, or very heavy cotton. Any colors used in the 12th century were > those that could be gotten from nature, lots of browns, greens, greys, etc. Don't forget the "natural" golds, scarlets, purples, blues and blacks worn by the upper classes. ;> Drea ******************************************* We've secretly replaced their dilithium crystals with new Folger's Crystals. Now let's watch them go to warp. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 Nov 1995 09:41:49 +1100 From: "GILLIAN RICHARDS (02) 716 3712" Subject: Washing Velvet In addition to these very helpful posts about washing & drying velvet: I find the fastest way to get the creases out of velvet is to hang the item in a hot steamy room and just watch the creases fall out. (OK - I admit it - I'm usually in the shower having the fast wash before the event that I'm wearing the velvet to, and thus creating the steam to "steam-iron" the gear that five minutes previously was in a crumpled heap at the bottom of the clean clothes pile.) Leave the item hanging in the bathroom as long as you can, as the more steam it gets the better it looks. (Hint - leave it in while SO is having their shower too). Beware of smoke detectors though - too enthusiastic steaming can sometimes set them off! My 2.7229c worth (conversion $AUS to $US) + - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - + | Gillian Richards - TAFE NSW - (02) 716 3712 (space for ASCII | | aka: gillian.richards@tafensw.edu.au picture when I | | "The Midnight Fox", "Mummy" find the time!) | + - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - + ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 14 Nov 1995 17:23:06 -0600 (CST) From: "Sandra L. Waldrop" Subject: Re: Victorian fichus On Fri, 10 Nov 1995, Heather Meadows wrote: > > I keep looking through at pictures of the most beautiful fichus > on victorian day dresses, and I'd like to put one on my dickens' > dress. But I cant' seem to find any pictures that show > how they generally looked in back, > and without that I can't figure out how to attach it > to a back lacing bodice..! > > any advice would be helpful... thanks! > > -heather > > To the Best of My Knowledge: Fichus widen out in the back, almost in a shawl effect. They end somewhere in the middle or lower part of the back. Most of them just curve round at the bottom, but if your dress has a pointed waist, a shallow triangular point at the bottom would be lovely. They were not really designed to be a permanent part of the dress. The fichu should attach at the front with a brooch or hidden pin. You might want to take a few stitches to tack it down on each shoulder so it doesn't slide around too much. Most of my research has been Civil War era, so you might want to track down some references anyway. Good Luck. Sandy Waldrop Save the Union swaldrop@prairienet.org Breckenridge for President ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 Nov 1995 02:38:24 GMT From: db-cos@westmore.demon.co.uk (David Brewer) Subject: Re: Gloves as Protection. Sorted. In message j.w.hubbard@sheffield.ac.uk (Bill Hubbard) writes: > >If we know they wore gloves (snip) and know that they were > >pretty well shod, how likely is it that a man didn't own gloves and > >how likely is he not to take/wear them on campaign? This is not an > >especially warm/dry country. > > Yes, seems logical: and one point of view is to argue from logic: another > is to argue from the evidence. Both approaches have their faults, but I > think evidence is safer if you want to be sure - see my previous posts > (regarding greaves) on the danger of arguing from logic. > Depends on what it is you want to do. In reconstructing clothes etc, one > approach can be too loose and the other can be too restrictive. This is entirely well said. > Just as a thought, the farmers I know don't generally wear gloves even in > the most bitter weather, let alone in the warmer (campaigning) seasons. > That is, it might be dangerous to argue for gloves from a modern sense of > comfort or need. Indeed I might add that I don't actually own any gloves myself... except for those used as hand protection when fighting. Fortunately for my hands I now have sufficient references both pictorial and textual to justify glove-wearing as part of a soldierly costume. A friend, for example, informs me that commisioners of array for mid-15th century Coventry were asking for men to report back for the next inspection with gloves. > >I don't think I've ever seen gauntlets on a common soldier... please > >give references! > > Off the top of the bookshelf, there are illustrations showing this from > English and French sources in two books (both usefully remaindered): Koch > "Medieval Warfare" and Edge and Paddock "Arms and Armour of the Medieval > Knight". > These are Chroniques de Froissart, page 182 of Med. War > and > The Beauchamp Chronicles and the Master of the WA's illustration of a > double line of Burgundians - both on page 132 of A&A of the Med Kinght. For the record, the Beauchamp Chronicle is Flemish (or so I'm told). Both Burgundy and France of this period had raised permanent bodies of well equipped soldiers regulated by ordannances, while England still muddled through her civil wars without professional soldiers. For the strictest historian this would queer the value of these pictures. Sadly the English were not so wont to put brush or pen to parchment as the Flemish. > David refers to the Burgundian line picture: I would interpret the pole-arm > men as wearing gauntlets (possibly the English-Gauntlet (facon > d'Anglaise)), given the angular nature of the hand-backs. I think you're right, although I think the archers are wearing soft gloves (mitten-gauntlets would be an impediment to archery). Also some appear to have brigandine-work pauldrons, but it's sadly unclear. Having dispatched the question of whether I ought to wear gloves, the question remains: to turn or not to turn? Anybody? - -- David Brewer ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 14 Nov 1995 22:38:48 -0500 From: kl94ag@badger.ac.BrockU.CA (Kathleen Leggat) Subject: Re: Ack!!!! Thanks everybody! I've got the instructions now...full steam ahead! I'm really touched by all the help. Kathleen (Catriona) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 Nov 1995 07:33:10 +0000 From: "Jennifer Kubenka" Subject: re-dying silk Hi all... I am wondering about this bit, as I know practically nothing about dyes and such. I have a purple silk noile Italian Ren gown, no sleeves, with some metallicy trim sewn on it. The silk has faded unevenly, and the gown is starting to look, well, I guess the nicest words are shoddy and frumpy. What I would like to know is: Is it possible to take the trim off (it's sewn on with transparent nylon thread, on both sides of the trim), and re-dye the gown? Or will the places where the color has never seen the sun, like under the trim, re-dye unevenly? If I can't re-dye the gown, what can I do with all that silk? I have almost 4 yards of material in the skirt alone. Thanks in advance, Jennifer D. Kubenka ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 Nov 1995 09:45:12 -0500 (EST) From: shadows Subject: Re: Material for Tunic Wool? Was that what they wore in the summer? Shadows ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 Nov 1995 15:21:27 +0100 (MET) From: Ingela Sjömark Subject: Re: Material for Tunic According to shadows: > > > Wool? Was that what they wore in the summer? > > Shadows > In the summer they wore linen tunics, but even in the summer it gets cold, at least up here in the known worlds northest canton, Frostheim.(in the north of Sweden.) Pure wool isn't that warm in the summer, it isolate the heat from getting trough. This is an old swedish saying, it never work for me, tough :-) /Ingela - -- /~~\________________________/~~\ ! oo ! ! ! \__/~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~\_/ \ (Ingela Sj|mark) \ \ Ingrid S|mmerska \ \ Canton of Frostheim \ \ Kingdom of \ \ Drachenwald \ \ ingela@ludd.luth.se \ \ \ /~~\___________________________~~\ ! oo ! ! ! \__/~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~\_/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 Nov 95 09:46:34 EST From: cthulhu.engr.sgi.com!sgi.engr.sgi.com!SMTPGWY!dlxibm!Liz_Jones Subject: European Update Well, I haven't been able to slog through all my mail, but thought to update the list on my recent excursion to London and Paris. As I had queried everyone on certain museums and bookshops, I wanted to let you know the outcome. London: There is Tudor everywhere! Or at least it seemed so at the time. There are at least two exhibits going on regarding Tudor Portraits: one at the Tate, (Thru 7 January 1996) and the other at the Weiss gallery, (thru 24 November) both in central London. I did attend the Tate, but could not make it to the Weiss within my schedule. I did purchase several books which had many portraits in them that I had never seen before. Details on books below, and I would recommend all of them. The National Gallery has a great Tudor Portrait calendar for 1996 that is available through the Past Times store and catalogue. I did check out the Undercroft museum for the burial effigies, but unfortunately missed the underwear exhibit. It seems that Bess is Back fully clothed in ugly costume that does not appear to be anywhere near original. Still the effigies are very interesting for their portrayal of realistic features, unlike the earlier style that can be seen in Fontrevault Abbey in France (Henry II, Eleanor of Acquitaine, Isabel of Angouleme and Richard the Lionheart) These are much more stylized, but are good for 12th century dress and drape, also belts. I believe that the UK has repeatedly asked for the effigies as they were definitely British Royalty, but France has said that they were Counts of Anjou FIRST, and Kings of England second! This is such a great French attitude, and it makes you appreciate how very French the British Royalty were at that time! Anyway... I also went up to Oxford to see the Ashmolean Museum, specifically for the Pisanello costume studies. I must say that I was rather disappointed, in that I had to go to the Print Room and request it, and only that one, as they were not exhibited: I was not prepared for library-type research. As I had built up my hopes, and taken the train out of London, I really expected more from the museum and town in terms of buying books and postcards, etc. I felt that the museum was rather fusty, and had a very minimal store. It does not allow photography, and memory does not serve well for garb details, so just SEEING things is not enough. I did not have very good luck in adding to my collection to Costume books, although I did find the Visual History of Costume 16th Century in print on a couple of stores. However, I did manage to buy about 50 lbs. of general books including the ones below, so did not consider the effort a waste! In France I made my pilgrimage to the Cluny and photographed everything. They do have at least three sets of slides that are pertinent to garb, including one set from the Musee de la Renaissance (which I did not get to visit: next time!) I have been there several times before, but did not photograph: I don't know why. I really appreciate museums that allow photography, as there are never postcards of the things I want, or details. For those who don't know, the Cluny has an incredible collection of late 15th-early 16th century tapestries, and does publish a complete collection in a book for about $35. At present it is only in French, although I do have one in English from about 5 years ago. It is worth it either way, as it has some wonderful details about much more than the Unicorn series. I also photographed a lot at the Louvre. Another piece of info: most of the French museums will provide photographs or slides on specific pieces if you request this and pay a nominal fee. It is not very much (about $10, I think), but too much to go wild. If anyone needs info on this, I have it at home somewhere. I know that the Musee de l'Armee (Armour and military) will also do this, as will many others in Britain and France. I also trekked literally through the forest to get to the Musee Conde in Chantilly, France. I was going specifically to see the Pisanello costume studies, but this time did not find them at all! I believe that they are in the library part of the collection which was not open on Sundays, and only by request. I will try to go back on the next trip, as they had an incredible collection of manuscripts, and I did splurge for the book (540 FF : about 120 dollars!). It has full page color repros of all medieval and renaissance manuscripts, and has much on garb and armor. Definitely a coffee table book or a investment for a collection, but highly recommended for illuminators, too! I was not in the least bit disappointed in the Conde collection, however, and took photos FOREVER. They have many interesting drawings (in low light), but tons of portraits from about 1450-1630. One entire room has about 150 portraits all about 10" x 13" of various French personages during this period. It was great!!!! The bookstore was fairly good, too. In Paris I did go to the fabric district to but some lace, which was still very pricey, especially with the dollar being awful. There is some very high quality cavalier-type lace available for between 12 and 20 dollars a meter. I did buy some of the $12, but also found lower quality stuff for $2-3, which I consider a great bargain. I did not allow myself to purchase fabric, but did get to indulge in some beautiful and unique silk for a friend who had sent along money. Unfortunately I could no longer find some high-quality damask that was made in Poland and was readily available five years ago. Booklist (all are paperback,coversion rate was about $1.60 to 1 pound sterling): Henry VIII: Images of a Tudor King, Christopher Lloyd & Simon Thurler, Phaidon Press, London, 1990, ISBN 0714826995 (10 pounds sterling "lbs") Dynasties: Painting in Tudor & Jacobean England, 1530-1630, Tate Publishing, ISBN 1854371576 (20 lbs sterl.) Tudor and Stuart Portraits 1530-1660, Weiss Gallery (no ISBN), (17.50 lbs sterl) Tudor London, Rosemary Weinstein, Museum of London, HMSO, 1994, ISBN 0112904955 (7 lbs sterl) Tudor & Jacobean Jewelry, Diane Scarisrich, Tate Publishing 1995, ISBN 1854371584, (9 lbs sterl) The Tudor Image, Maurice Howard, Tate Gallery 1995, (no ISBN) (8 lbs sterl) Funeral Effigies of Westminster Abbey: Harvey & Mortimer, 1994, ISBN 0851153682 Costumes: Modes st manieres d'etre, by Delphone Pinasa, R.E.M.P. Art, Rue des Guillemites, 75004 Paris (80 FF = approx $18). This small book covers Roman through early medieval, and is in French. It is one of the more useful books I have seen covering this period, with photos of statuary, manuscripts, etc. That's the update!! If someone wants info about the Cluny Tapestry book or the Condee Manuscript book, please let me know. Liz Jones (Damiana d'Onde in SCA) ljones@datalogix.com (you can't "reply" YET, must address new each time!) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 Nov 1995 09:51:29 -0700 From: cwood@primenet.com Subject: Looking for Lists Try Re-enactor's Net, which last time I checked, was at http://www.webcom.com/custer/. It has links to several different re-enactment groups from different parts of the world. However, even though Custer is mentioned, there are no groups pertaining to the Western military listed. I haven't found a comprehensive listing of re-enactment groups anywhere, but one really is needed. There are so many groups and some of them are quite small and specialized. What time period exactly where you looking for? ysabeau ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 Nov 1995 09:54:29 -0700 From: cwood@primenet.com Subject: 19th Century Maternity Clothes I have been wondering what pregnant 19th century ladies wore in the way of maternity clothes, particularly in the later part of the centuries when waists were quite constricted. I think I read somewhere that really pregnant ladies were not supposed to be seen in public, but surely sometimes it was unavoidable. For example, as a western military historian, I have run across many accounts of extremely pregnant army wives having to go on troop marches with their husbands (this would be in the 1870s/80s) and I am wondering what they wore. Can anyone shed any light on this topic for me? Ysabeau ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 Nov 1995 09:55:53 -0700 From: cwood@primenet.com Subject: In Search of Starch I am looking for starch, the good old fashioned kind that Grandma used to use. So far searches at the hardware store, grocery store and fabric store have failed to produce results. Any ideas where else I might look? Thanks. Ysabeau ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 Nov 1995 13:54:26 -0500 (EST) From: Drea Leed Subject: Re: In Search of Starch Good luck. I scoured my town for it, and ended up using good old sugar-and-water for stiffener. I'd like to know a good place to find it, too.. Drea On Wed, 15 Nov 1995 cwood@primenet.com wrote: > I am looking for starch, the good old fashioned kind that Grandma used to > use. So far searches at the hardware store, grocery store and fabric store > have failed to produce results. > > Any ideas where else I might look? > > Thanks. > > Ysabeau > > ******************************************* We've secretly replaced their dilithium crystals with new Folger's Crystals. Now let's watch them go to warp. ------------------------------ End of H-Costume Digest V3 #251 ******************************* A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to subscribe to that instead, send the command lines: unsubscribe h-costume-digest subscribe h-costume end in the body of a message to majordomo@lunch.engr.sgi.com. Thanks and enjoy the list!