From: owner-h-costume-digest (H-Costume Digest) To: h-costume-digest@lunch.engr.sgi.com Subject: H-Costume Digest V3 #252 Reply-To: h-costume Sender: owner-h-costume-digest@lunch.engr.sgi.com Errors-To: owner-h-costume-digest@lunch.engr.sgi.com Precedence: bulk H-Costume Digest Thursday, November 16 1995 Volume 3, Number 252 Compilation copyright (C) 1995 Diane Barlow Close and Gretchen Miller Use in whole prohibited. Individual articles are the property of the author. Seek permission from that author before reprinting or quoting elsewhere. Important Addresses: Send submissions to: h-costume@lunch.engr.sgi.com (or reply to this message). Adds/drops/archives: majordomo@lunch.engr.sgi.com Real, live person: h-costume-request@andrew.cmu.edu Topics: Re: Gloves as Protection. S Re: Material for Tunic RE: In Search of Starch RE: In Search of Starch Starch Re starch Re: 12thC belts and Cluny Re: Material for Tunic Re: In Search of Starch RE: In Search of Starch Knitting history Re: Starch Tunics Re: re-dying silk Re: Material for Tunic Re: 19th Century Maternity Clothes ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 15 Nov 1995 11:46:18 U From: "Carole Newson-Smith" Subject: Re: Gloves as Protection. S Reply to: RE>>Gloves as Protection. Sorted. David Brewer writes: :Having dispatched the question of whether I ought to wear gloves, the :question remains: to turn or not to turn? Anybody? I grew up in south Georgia, where fashions have tended to lag behind other parts of the U.S. When I was younger, I wore gloves for dressy occasions and in cold weather, as did my mother and grandmother and their contemporaries. Most ladies' leather gloves were made of thin skins such as deer or kid, and were turned. This gave a smooth appearance. Ladies didn't have lined gloves, because we don't really have cold weather in south Georgia. Mens' gloves were of three types: heavy fabric work gloves with seams showing the stitching, thin leather gloves that were turned and used for dress occasions, and leather gloves that were lined with fabric or fur and worn in cold weather. The only unturned gloves I ever wore or saw others wear were made of pigskin which is a thicker leather. My conclusion is that if the cut edges were on the inside of the glove and the leather was thick, the gloves would be uncomfortable, and make the wearer clumsy when doing anything more precise than, say, raking a lawn. Unless your historical depiction clearly shows that the cut edges are on the outside of the glove, I would think (for the above reasoning) that it would make sense to turn them so that the cut edges are on the inside where they would not interfere with whatever task you need to perform. Carole Newson-Smith ------------------------------ Date: 15 Nov 1995 12:49:51 U From: "Carole Newson-Smith" Subject: Re: Material for Tunic Reply to: RE>>Material for Tunic When I went to England for the first time, I did a bit of shopping. (I know, I know, what a surprise. ;-) ) One of the things in the stores that surprised me was summer weight wool. I'd never heard of such a thing. I also saw some winter weight wool, which was thicker than any I'd ever seen before. So yes, wool can be used for a summer garment. But in most of the US, even the thinnest wool would be too hot to wear in summer, at least during the day. My preference is linen for summer when I can afford it. Keep in mind that linen was cheaper than cotton until spinning technology changed from hand work with a wheel to a task done by machines. Carole Newson-Smith ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 Nov 1995 16:15:59 -0600 From: Bronwyn Noble Subject: RE: In Search of Starch Good luck. I scoured my town for it, and ended up using good old sugar-and-water for stiffener. I'd like to know a good place to find it, too.. Drea ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 Nov 1995 16:33:40 -0600 (CST) From: Deb Subject: RE: In Search of Starch I thought someone had said a while back that water and CORNSTARCH was the basics of good old fashioned starch? Haven't tried it .... Deb ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 16 Nov 1995 09:46:42 +1100 From: "GILLIAN RICHARDS (02) 716 3712" Subject: Starch I see starch all the time in the supermarket - it's usually on the top of a high shelf, beside the other obscure things like laundry blue and stocking-washing-bags. Mind you, this is in Australia. What about trying Potato starch - you grate a potato and soak the gratings in cold water. The thick white stuff like clay that sinks to the bottom is starch. If I were a moth, I'd love a diet of potato starch followed by sugar-and-water stiffening! + - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - + | Gillian Richards - TAFE NSW - (02) 716 3712 |\__/| | | aka: gillian.richards@tafensw.edu.au / \ | | "The Midnight Fox", "Mummy" /_.~ ~,_\ | | Australia's answer to the werewolf? \ / | + - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - @ - - - - - - + ------------------------------ Date: 16 Nov 95 08:54:31 EST From: AWILSON%ABRSCBR.ANCA@roris.erin.gov.au (Wilson, Annette) Subject: Re starch You can't get starch in the States? Does this mean that Australia can finally export something to you? Old fashioned starch is still available on supermarket shelves here, in about 500gm boxes. I use it a fair bit for cotton and linen. It Do you have travelling friends? Or if you are really desperate I can enquire about postage costs and arrange to send it to you. Annette Wilson Email: awilson@anca.gov.au ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 16 Nov 1995 10:07:07 +1000 (EST) From: Carolyn Fraser Subject: Re: 12thC belts and Cluny On Wed, 15 Nov 1995 !Liz jones wrote Snip..... > realistic features, unlike the earlier style that can be seen in > Fontrevault Abbey in France (Henry II, Eleanor of Acquitaine, Isabel of > Angouleme and Richard the Lionheart) These are much more stylized, but are good for 12th century dress and drape, also belts. Can you give us any more information about the belts? I would be very interested in a description, and, if possible, information regarding when they were made and what sources they were based on. > That's the update!! If someone wants info about the Cluny Tapestry book or the > Condee Manuscript book, please let me know. Yes please! I would like the proferred info - and - thanks for the "update", I for one am green with envy. Carolyn Fraser Brisbane, Australia ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 Nov 1995 20:28:04 -0500 (EST) From: Susan Carroll-Clark Subject: Re: Material for Tunic greetings! Sit back here and I'll tell you a story about wool. One summer a couple of years ago, I went out to an ECW event. In August. It was about a hundred degrees in the shade. And my entire set of clothes, except for stockings and shirt was made of...wool. I expected to boil. I didn't. I did perspire, but no more than I would have wearing cotton, and a lot less than I would have in a synthetic material. Similarly, two years ago when I went to the SCA's Pennsic War, I brought along a wool sleeveless surcote (the previous year had been downright _cold_ at night.) I once again ran up against a hot and humid Pennsylvania August day-- but wore the surcote anyway. It was made of a lightweight wool twill, and was surprisingly comfortable. Wool comes in many different thicknesses. If you select suiting or coating wool, you _will_ sweat. If, however, you pick something lighter, you will be surprised at how _un_ hot it is! cheers! Susan Carroll-Clark sclark@epas.utoronto.ca ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 Nov 1995 18:15:30 -0800 From: denikai@ix.netcom.com (Marie Denikas ) Subject: Re: In Search of Starch How about doing it the old-fashioned way? Boil a load of potatoes, then boil your fabric? Marie ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 Nov 1995 18:14:50 -0800 From: shepgibb@mcn.org Subject: RE: In Search of Starch >I thought someone had said a while back that >water and CORNSTARCH was the basics of >good old fashioned starch? > >Haven't tried it .... Deb I find VANO LIQUID STARCH at the supermarket. It is not perfect but it works. It also works for paper mache and all sorts of other things. ............Robb Shep ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 Nov 1995 19:04:09 -0800 From: Chris Laning Subject: Knitting history Fellow knittresses(?) IMNSHO, anyone who loves knitting and history should read, own, memorize (etc.) Bishop Richard Rutt's _A_History_of_Hand_Knitting_; it has some surprising things in it. From everything I have heard, his scholarship is well-nigh impeccable, and he is very careful -- much more so than most of the popular writers about the history of needlework -- about what sources of information he accepts. (He tells you why and why not, too!) From what he says, knitting around and around on sets of several double- pointed needles actually seems to have come *first* and "flat knitting" came later. I know this doesn't seem terribly logical to us, but *nalbinding* -- a predecessor to knitting made with a threaded needle -- *was* worked in the round, and from that to knitting merely involves a different way of manipulating loops of yarn (i.e. pulled through each other rather than inter-linked). He says, on p.23: > "Medieval and earlier knitting that survives is nearly all done in the > round...... A number of fragments must be regarded as doubtful, but > some that are now flat can be shown to be the remains of round > knitting....The earliest verifiable purled stitches are on the stockings > of Eleanor of Toledo, 1562 or earlier. There is good reason to suppose > that purling had been used in turning the heels of stockings earlier > than this, but no clear evidence." Incidentally, the earliest pieces of fabric with a true knitted structure that he cites are fragments of knitted cotton, some of them clearly parts of stockings, from Egypt. He says they are very difficult to date and *may* be as early as the thirteenth century. The earliest pieces with a *firm* date are a pair of Spanish or Arabic cushions from the tombs in the royal monastery of Las Huelgas, near Burgos in Spain, and are ca. 1275. He says anything before these dates -- including so-called Roman "knitted" fragments -- has inevitably turned out to be *nalbinding*, which can be told from knitting by following the path of the thread through the stitches. Anyway, this is why 14th-century knitting madonnas (he analyzes several) are so important in knitting history; they are actually among the earlier (though not the earliest) evidences of knitting in Western Europe. Caps seem to have been the first thing commonly knitted in England; there were professional "cappers" in Coventry in 1424; stockings seem to have followed not too long after, though the really fine and virtuoso stuff had to wait 150 years or so till fine enough drawn wire was available to make smaller diameters of needles (1 to 2 mm). Knitting back and forth in flat pieces that are later sewn together seems (though it was known earlier) to have become popular during the "revival" of knitting as a leisure-time craft in the 1920s or 30s (this is about when sweaters became fashionable middle- to upper-class garments for the first time in centuries...) (Note that this is my summary, and undoubtedly greatly over-simplified!) Also, Elizabeth Zimmerman has an amusing account of the first circular needles, sometime in the same era (Ruttsays the earliest advertised werenorwegian, 1924). They were first made of twisted wire cable. and little strands tended to come loose and snag things....infuriating! Before that, sweaters could be worked on from 8 to as many as 14 straight double-pointed needles. I can't begin to explain in a short post how thorough Rutt is. He cites numerous early uses of the word "knit" (including Shakespeare) and examines each one to see whether it means "knit" or whether it means "join" or "tie" or one of the other meanings of the word. He spends nearly six pages carefully examining the evidence for what we now know as "Aran" knitting (those white fisherman's sweaters) and convincingly dates them to the late 1930s (no, that is not a typo -- another romantic story down the drain......). He debunks once and for all the myth that chain mail is "knitted" as we understand the term (though it is certainly "joined together," one of the alternate meanings of the word). The ISBN for this book (for us poor souls in the US with clueless bookstore staff) is 0-934026-35-1 and it's published by Interweave Press (1987). My copy cost somewhere around $20 or thereabouts. _________________________________________________________ O Chris Laning | + Davis, California _________________________________________________________ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 16 Nov 1995 01:31:50 -0500 From: RoseDzynes@aol.com Subject: Re: Starch It's ARGO! Best Foods CPC International Inc. General Offices Englewood Cliffs, NJ 07632 16 oz box in the laundry section of the super market. If you boil it, it's stiffer. Real gloopy. Have fun. Diane ------------------------------ Date: 16 Nov 95 02:43:45 EST From: Rhane <74404.22@compuserve.com> Subject: Tunics TO: shadows Subject: Re: Material for Tunic <> you haven't seen our summers! (Actually, I'd not have worn wool *this* summer (low 90's) but if it'd been back then, quite probably) Rhane (who's now got first hand experience in English summers) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 16 Nov 1995 09:40:59 -0600 (CST) From: Teresa Shannon Subject: Re: re-dying silk > I have a purple silk noile Italian Ren gown, no sleeves, with some > metallicy trim sewn on it. The silk has faded unevenly, and the gown > is starting to look, well, I guess the nicest words are shoddy and > frumpy. > Is it possible to take the trim off (it's sewn on with transparent > nylon thread, on both sides of the trim), and re-dye the gown? Or > will the places where the color has never seen the sun, like under > the trim, re-dye unevenly? If you dye it correctly and carefully, i.e., probably not in the washer with RIT dye, but in a way that you control the cloth so it dyes evenly, it shouldn't be a problem. Silk will keep taking the dye better than anything. I would recommend, depending on the shade of this color that you go with something darker, however, and you may not be able to get it as brilliant as hoped. Since it has a purple underneath (if its a lavendar purple, you can say if was overdyed with an orchil base, very period use of the color in Italy for silk [too bad this is noil]) I would recommend a nice mulberry, so try timed steepings with a nice clear (not dark) red. I would pull it toward the reds before the blues, which are a little more difficult to make nice, unless you are going all the way for dark, dark blues (don't try navy). > If I can't re-dye the gown, what can I do with all that silk? I have > almost 4 yards of material in the skirt alone. since this is noil I would recommend three things. 1) use it to line the inside of a nice wool, linen, or noil outfit. 2) gradually bleach it in non-ammonia bleach until it is white, or off-white and use it as a chemise for the cool months, 3) use it for pattern pieces (In California, where there are no textile mills, only cotton fields and sweat shops, and I was working for Thai silks, silk noil was cheaper than cotton muslin, so I used it for pattern pieces.). Teresa ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 16 Nov 1995 10:39:28 -0500 From: deirdre@deeny.MV.COM (Deirdre) Subject: Re: Material for Tunic At 8:28 PM 11/15/95, Susan Carroll-Clark wrote: > Wool comes in many different thicknesses. If you select > suiting or coating wool, you _will_ sweat. If, however, > you pick something lighter, you will be surprised at how > _un_ hot it is! Wool, linen, rayon and cotton, in suitable weights, most certainly ARE suitable for summer wear. There's an old Threads article on wool gab that shows a BEAUTIFUL wool gab blouse. I'm one of those people who usually wears long sleeves in summer. I'm quite sun-sensitive and find that most SPF lotions clog the pores more than wearing long sleeves. You might want to see if you can find any Viyella -- a blend of wool and cotton which is often available in shirting weights. It is very soft and has body. It has some of the best properties of both fabrics and is usually available in fairly conservative hues. It is however QUITE expensive. _Deirdre ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 16 Nov 1995 09:32:10 -0800 (PST) From: Julie Cheetham Subject: Re: 19th Century Maternity Clothes Ysabeau asked about 1870s-1880s maternity clothes. I am not an expert on the subject, by any means. In fact it is very difficult to be an "expert" on Victorian maternity clothes, because pregnancy and childbirth seemed to be either such a taboo subject or such a commenplace one that women rarely wrote about how they coped even in their private diaries. While it was considered in best taste for "ladies" (i.e. those blessed with enough material wealth to have servants), to remain somewhat cloistered while in the visible stages of pregnancy, this obviously was not practical for working class women. One type of garment which appears in written records as early as the 1830s, but gained special popularity in the last decades of the 19th century, was the "wrapper." It is sometimes known also as a "tea wrapper" when made with elegant fabrics and trims and as a "Mother Hubbard" when made of homely fabrics and worn unbelted for work wear. This garment was prized by all classes as a comfortable alternative to the heavily boned and corseted fashionable gowns of the day. It was widely used as a house and work dress, especially in the frontier areas. Dressier versions of it were acceptable for church and visiting in less formal communities. Elegant ladies wore this style heavily trimmed with lace and ribbons in the morning before dressing to go out and even for entertaining at home in the afternoon. The wrapper was worn by not pregnant women, but must have served admirably for pregnancy as well. In its simplest form, the wrapper was made of serviceable cotton or wool with a high neck and long sleeves, although the sleeves tended to be looser and were less tight at the armholes than was fashionable. It was styled with a yoke, often bordered with a ruffle. The dress was gathered to the yoke and fell loose from it like a full floor length smock. This design was very similar to the nightgowns of the era and even some of the flannel nightgowns seen today. Many women (especially in the final stages of pregnancy) just wore the dress hanging loose. However, an apron was often tied around the waist, and either full belts or half belts across the back were also used to provide a bit of a fitted look. More elaborate tea wrappers might be styled with Watteau type pleating in the back (and even trains) and the front might be more fitted with shaped panels. Some had fashionably cut sleeves, rather than the rather standard loose sleeves with cuffs at the end. The yoke was usually lined, sometimes the sleeves, but the rest of the garment was often unlined. The wrapper was not entirely unfitted. Inside the bodice was a fitted liner which was attached to the side seams and fastened tightly over the bust. Some women may have worn corsets under them, but undoubtedly many women did not when at home or doing heavy work. A chemise and petticoat went underneath, but hoops (in earlier years) and bustles (in later years) were not normally worn with wrappers. Suitable fabrics for a woman following her solider husband would be calico, checked or plaid gingham, flower sprigged percale, or lightweight wool (light enough to gather into graceful folds). You can see many photographs of this type of gown in the various nice books available now about the lives of women on the frontier. One of the best resources is "Calico Chronicle" by Betty J. Mills. It may still be available from Texas Tech Press, Texas Tech University, Lubboch TX 79409, or get it through Interlibrary Loan. Many examples of wrappers in Texas Tech's collection appear in the book, along with detailed written descriptions. Hope this helps. Julie Lassiter Cheetham ------------------------------ End of H-Costume Digest V3 #252 ******************************* A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to subscribe to that instead, send the command lines: unsubscribe h-costume-digest subscribe h-costume end in the body of a message to majordomo@lunch.engr.sgi.com. Thanks and enjoy the list!