From: owner-h-costume-digest (H-Costume Digest) To: h-costume-digest@lunch.engr.sgi.com Subject: H-Costume Digest V3 #254 Reply-To: h-costume Sender: owner-h-costume-digest@lunch.engr.sgi.com Errors-To: owner-h-costume-digest@lunch.engr.sgi.com Precedence: bulk H-Costume Digest Monday, November 20 1995 Volume 3, Number 254 Compilation copyright (C) 1995 Diane Barlow Close and Gretchen Miller Use in whole prohibited. Individual articles are the property of the author. Seek permission from that author before reprinting or quoting elsewhere. Important Addresses: Send submissions to: h-costume@lunch.engr.sgi.com (or reply to this message). Adds/drops/archives: majordomo@lunch.engr.sgi.com Real, live person: h-costume-request@andrew.cmu.edu Topics: Re: 19th Century Maternity Clothes: Mother Hubbards sarcenet and gold thread Corsets Re: 19th Century Masque Ball RE: address for LaLame?? Re: Material for Tunic Re: Material for Tunic Re: sarcenet and gold thread Starch need info on corsets Re: Corsets Knitting and Chain Mail Re: Looking for Lists Nifty Stuff from Tigger - I think. FW: Re: armourer's mailing list wool as fire retardant Masquerade Dress Re: need info on corsets Corsets in the SF Bay area ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 18 Nov 1995 11:53:48 +0000 (GMT) From: Dorothy Stein Subject: Re: 19th Century Maternity Clothes: Mother Hubbards The Mother Hubbard was brought to Hawaii by missionaries who were distressed to see the natives running around so lightly clad. It is called a muumuu, is still a distinctive Hawaiian dress and can be worn anywhere: on the street, to parties or to the beach. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 18 Nov 1995 07:49:21 -0500 From: Gary Stephens Subject: sarcenet and gold thread At the risk of completely showing my ignorance, I was wondering if any kind souls out there might explain to me what is sarcenet? Recently I have come across several references to sarcenet with regard to embroidery grounds. Am I correct in assuming this is a type of silk weave? I was also wondering if anyone knew of a source of real gold embroidery thread? A source with which I might be able to deal by way of C.O.D. mail order? I'd be perfectly willing to look at plate thread, and in several weights and textures, purls, rounds, flats, etc. I do quite a bit of embroidery, you see, from Norse through to Elizabethan. In some of the planned pieces I would very much like to experiment with couching real gold thread in order to recreate an opus anglicanum sort of feeling. You see there's this pillow that wants doing, borrowing heavily from the paraments from the Order of the Golden Fleece, with one of the embroidery saints featured. Or nue, split stitch, gold couching and all. (Oh, the things a person will do when idleness is at their disposal. :) ) Lorina Stephens garys@flexnet.com ------------------------------ Date: 18 Nov 95 14:31:23 EST From: Rhane <74404.22@compuserve.com> Subject: Corsets To: HiNonny@aol.com Subject: Corsets <>> There's Raiments, I bought their Elizabethan tabbed corset pattern kit (laces, fabric, stays, pattern, instructions). Their instructions are the clearest in corset making I've ever seen (everyone else makes it *so* complicated!). Also, I find their service a bit better than Amazon. Raiments' e-mail: 72437.674@compuserve.com The co-proprieter's name is Gary Anderson. Their catalog costs $5 and not only cover patterns for old times but modern stuff as well, including patterns for those who are wheelchair bound. Good luck, Rhane ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 18 Nov 1995 17:33:20 -0500 From: Sanni1@aol.com Subject: Re: 19th Century Masque Ball There's a great book called "From the Ballroom to Hell" that talks about both dress and manners. Try your local bookstore. For costumes, the Dover series has a lot of material on this period. Our university library has original copies of Godey's and other magazines from the 1860s that are excellent sources. Good luck! P.S. Where is this ball??? Sanni ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 18 Nov 95 18:47:17 PST From: ches@tristero.io.com Subject: RE: address for LaLame?? > Does anyone have the address for LaLame (new york company specializing > in ecclesiastical brocades)? There is a place in New York called the Joseph Eidleman company. It also deals with ecclesiastical trims and fabrics. I cannot find my copy of the address but if anyone else has it I want it too. Ciao @}\ Ches @}----`--,-- @}/ ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 18 Nov 1995 22:58:13 -0500 (EST) From: Susan Carroll-Clark Subject: Re: Material for Tunic greetings! I'm glad you brought this display (at the Tower) up because I was rather impressed by it (it _is_ the period I study) on a costuming level-- I was terribly covetous of a lovely wool gown in a nice shade of red worn by a bewimpled lady there, and vowed that I would have to make one (I already own a very similar one in blue). I was also quite impressed by the "Kingmaker" display at Warwick Castle. I don't know what the point-of-view of a fifteenth century specialist would be, but to my eye, it was fabulous--even the hosen hanging on lines in the corner were based on period patterns, no synthetics in sight...just proof that it's possible to do good costume history in a tourist attraction. cheers! Susan Carroll-Clark sclark@epas.utoronto.ca ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 18 Nov 1995 23:14:05 -0800 (PST) From: "Sarah E. Goodman" Subject: Re: Material for Tunic > I'm glad you brought this display (at the Tower) up because > I was rather impressed by it (it _is_ the period I study) > on a costuming level-- I was terribly covetous of a lovely > wool gown in a nice shade of red worn by a bewimpled lady I asked her about some edge treatment on her gown and we ended up hiding in a corner of the tower and discussing fabric for about an hour! > would be, but to my eye, it was fabulous--even the hosen > hanging on lines in the corner were based on period patterns, > no synthetics in sight...just proof that it's possible to > do good costume history in a tourist attraction. Didn't see Warwick. Definately recommend Barley Hall in York. They have hand-woven say on the walls, period (Richard III) colors and a lot of neat stuff. It's still mostly scenery and props (and a very good audio-tape with actors playing the various residents), but they are working towards a full, three-year cycle recreation. Very well done. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 19 Nov 1995 12:00:24 -0800 From: denikai@ix.netcom.com (Marie Denikas ) Subject: Re: sarcenet and gold thread I remember a company called 'Daisychain' selling bullion and spangles. I had their catalog, but loaned it to someone who decided it was too good to return. If anyone has their address, please post! Marie ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 19 Nov 1995 18:04:51 -0800 (PST) From: Elizabeth Fox Subject: Starch A friend who uses starch for his normal ironing says he gets it at Safeway. It comes in a plastic bottle. He dilutes it to make it last longer. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 19 Nov 1995 21:35:53 -0600 (CST) From: Kerri Potratz Subject: need info on corsets Hello-- I am looking for a book or other reasearch info on the medical problems associalted with wearing corsets in any period of time that they were wern. I am doing a research paper and I haven't limited my time period down yet, so any info you have would be wonderful! Thanks muchly and pleas respone to me if at all possible--the list is getting big again and I catch replys easier. Thanks a bunch! *Kerri Potratz**University of South Dakota* / /\ \ *Kpotratz@sunfish.usd.edu \ \/ / \/ ==If I be waspish, best beware my sting!== Shrew, II.i ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 19 Nov 1995 21:39:36 -0600 (CST) From: Kerri Potratz Subject: Re: Corsets Try "Corsets and Crinolins" You will have to enlarge the pattern, but that's easy to do. I just did my first one for the stage and it worked beautiful! (My portfolio is so happy!) I can get the isbn number and such if you have problems finding it Good book to have if you are doing anything period..it's nice to know what goes under the pretties. Hasta Kerri *Kerri Potratz**University of South Dakota* / /\ \ *Kpotratz@sunfish.usd.edu \ \/ / \/ ==Oh my gosh! Did I leave the iron on again???== On 18 Nov 1995, Rhane wrote: > To: HiNonny@aol.com > Subject: Corsets > > < Drygoods carries some. Are these the best available? Or is there something > better? >> ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 20 Nov 1995 00:17:18 -0800 From: Chris Laning Subject: Knitting and Chain Mail After my recent post recommending Bishop Richard Rutt's _A_History_of_Hand_Knitting_ (ISBN 0-934026-35-1, Interweave Press, 1987), and noting that he debunks the myth that chain mail was knitted, Alan Brutt asked: > Is the "knitted" mail mentioned in the post below an exception, or > an example of the persistence of the myth? (And would it actually > have been closer to the nalbinding you mentioned?) > > Date: Tue, 3 Oct 1995 07:44:16 -0400 > From: Kjotvi@aol.com > Subject: Knitted mail > [...] > 2) In Osprey Men at Arms book on armor of the Roman Republic, they > showed a diagram of early form of the Lorica Hamata formed of mail > that was supposedly made of a length of wire literally knitted, ie: > repeatedly looped through itself in a continnuing sort of chain stitch. > The text mentioned that this form was fairly quickly replaced with the > far stronger and more flexible form of seperately interlinked wire > rings that would remain the standard throughout the Middle Ages, and > is what most of us think of when we hear the term "Mail". * * * Here's what the good Bishop Rutt (now retired, I'm told BTW) has to say about chain mail (p.39). > "Historians who are not specialists in textiles or armour have > sometimes assumed that chain mail was knitted. Their mistake is > understandable, because of the modern theatrical convention of > simulating chain mail for the stage by garter stitch coloured with > silver paint. Chain mail was true chain-work made of small interlaced > steel rings, usually with each ring linked into the four rings > surrounding it. Coats of mail draped and moved on the wearer's body > almost like liquid, in a way that knitted fabric never could." However he also says (p.24): > "Metal wire or strips can be bent and intertwined into a knitted > structure ..." [After citing a few examples of jewelry and in precious > metal decoration, he says] "...Similar structures have been found in > metal artefacts from many periods and places: Viking relics at Croy > and Ballinaby in Scotland, the ninth-century Trewhiddle hoard in > Cornwall and Irish finds at Tara and Clonmacnoise. There is also a > train of evidence showing that this metal knitting, usually in the form > of a hollow and flexible rope cord, was popular in the Byzantine world > and must eventaully have derived from Greece in the millennium before > Christ. The same work is found in Nepal, Tibet and the Yemen, and at > Dura-Europos in Syria." * * * So evidently the technique *was* available during the Roman Republic. But I wouldn't try to pronounce on the basis of this evidence -- I'd have to see Osprey's sources. It looks to me like it could be either, perhaps a genuine finding, perhaps a speculation based on modern misconceptions. Either way it would depend on seeing a detailed picture of the stuff's construction. Personally, though, I'd think [Caveat: as Alan says, we've already covered the dangers of "it seems reasonable that..."] wire of a gauge to provide any significant protection would (1) be quite difficult to "knit" -- which requires pushing small loops through other small loops -- and (2) produce a rather inflexible and uncomfortable armor. (Yes, but isn't *all armor uncomfortable? ) If it was difficult to knit, I'd think it would probably be even more difficult to manipulate by *nalbinding*, which would require even more bending and flexing. *Nalbinding* was (actually *is*, it's still practiced) a series of stitches taken with a threaded needle. It resembles rows of loose buttonhole stitches looped into each other. Knitting basically took over from *nalbinding* because it's considerably faster: (1) the whole length of the yarn you're using in the needle doesn't need to be pulled through each stitch, and (2) you don't have to cut a length of yarn to work with and then keep joining on new lengths whenever you run out, you can knit directly from a continuous ball or skein. Strictly speaking, the "a" in *nalbinding* is the Scandinavian a-with-a- small-circle over it (pronounced "aw" -- in Danish, anyway) and the word means something like "joining with a needle" -- *nal*="needle", *binding*="binding" or "joining" (the word *binding* by itself means "bandage"). _________________________________________________________ O Chris Laning | + Davis, California _________________________________________________________ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 20 Nov 1995 08:20:02 -0500 From: DonlynK@aol.com Subject: Re: Looking for Lists If your looking for lists of Re-enacting groups and events Smoke and Fire News has the best listing. They print a monthly newspaper that lists hundreds of things from all time periods. $15 a year. Smoke and Fire News. P.O.Box 166, Grand Rapids OH 43522. Call them at 1-800-SMOKE/FI(re) or 1-800-766-5334 and they'll send you a free copy, also have a really good catalog of 18th century patterns and stuff. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 20 Nov 1995 11:48:55 -0500 From: Tudorldy@aol.com Subject: Nifty Stuff from Tigger - I think. I think that was the name of the web site catalog I was looking at when I got unceremoniously booted off the system by AOL. There was a little system trouble that day I believe. I didn't get to see enough of it to really be sure, but I *believe* it was Tigger's trim catalog. I had accessed it through a really long series of links I was unable to reproduce in spite of fiddling with it for about an hour. Has anyone else out there heard of this place, either the web site or the person selling the trim (is Tigger here, perhaps?). If so, please e-mail me with information on how to contact them. The trim looked *really nice*. Many thanks, yours in service, etc. Elizabeth Blackdane (TudorLdy@aol.com) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 20 Nov 95 11:21:11 PST From: ches@tristero.io.com Subject: FW: Re: armourer's mailing list Here is a word from a friend of mine about gauntlets: On 20 Nov 1995 10:12:08 U Mark Harris wrote: >Greetings unto Ches, > >Could you forward this to the lists you mention: > >Your message mentions that there has been some discussion on the making >of gauntlets in the costume list. I have one (unfortunately >small at this time) file collected off the Rialto that some of these >people might be interested in. This file is: > >gauntlets-msg (14K) 2/ 3/95 Hand protection, gloves, gauntlets. > >And anyone who wants it (or any of my other files) can get them at: > >http://fermi.clas.virginia.edu/~gl8f/rialto/rialto.html > >Or from me by email in Word or text format. > >There is also a large section on costuming and information on various >other subjects that might be of interest to these people. > >Stefan li Rous Barony of Bryn Gwlad Ansteorra >Per pale gules and or, a ram's head caboshed, counterchanged > > Mark S. Harris markh@risc.sps.mot.com Austin, TX > Ciao @}\ Ches @}----`--,-- @}/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 20 Nov 1995 13:45:50 -0600 (CST) From: VICKI@lib.uttyl.edu Subject: wool as fire retardant A While back we had a thread on the list about the possible use of wool aprons, since wool does not burn so readily. I still haven't found anything on that specifically. However, while reading microfilm copies of The National Tribune, a newspaper for the ACW Union veteran (GAR), I did find the reminiscence of a man who saw an elderly Virginia woman whose dress caught on fire while she was cooking. He quickly put the dress out, but also credited her wool petticoat with helping to prevent her being burned. Just thought that might be of interest to some. Vicki Betts vicki@lib.uttyl.edu ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 20 Nov 1995 11:51:45 -0800 From: kondoa@ucs.orst.edu Subject: Masquerade Dress A couple years ago, I ran across some "fancy Dress" references in back issues of "Costume" & "Dress" & a book called "Fancy Dress" by Anthea Jarvis, which was a Shire publication. Maybe these would help. The British seem to use the term "FAncy Dress" more than "masquerade" & most of my references were British. THere is also a biography of the couture designer Worth, writtien by his son in the 1920's which shows many of the fancy dress costumes he designed for European nobility. Alison ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 20 Nov 1994 14:27:00 -0800 From: Michelle Subject: Re: need info on corsets Kerri Potratz wrote: > > Hello-- > > I am looking for a book or other reasearch info on the medical problems > associalted with wearing corsets in any period of time that they were > wern. I am doing a research paper and I haven't limited my time period > down yet, so any info you have would be wonderful! Thanks muchly and > pleas respone to me if at all possible--the list is getting big again and > I catch replys easier. Check into David Kunzle's Fashion and Fetishism...it's a study of tight-lacing (not to mention a pretty good read). Michelle Powell-Smith ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 20 Nov 1995 13:42:37 -0800 From: Heather Meadows Subject: Corsets in the SF Bay area The corset I originally had for Dickens fair is just too short for me - so I'm giving it to a friend soon. Does anyone know of custom corset makers in the Bay Area that might have some time right now? I'm sure most people are busy - and no I don't like Dark Gardens work much! thanks - -heather ------------------------------ End of H-Costume Digest V3 #254 ******************************* A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to subscribe to that instead, send the command lines: unsubscribe h-costume-digest subscribe h-costume end in the body of a message to majordomo@lunch.engr.sgi.com. Thanks and enjoy the list!