From: owner-h-costume-digest (H-Costume Digest) To: h-costume-digest@lunch.engr.sgi.com Subject: H-Costume Digest V3 #260 Reply-To: h-costume Sender: owner-h-costume-digest@lunch.engr.sgi.com Errors-To: owner-h-costume-digest@lunch.engr.sgi.com Precedence: bulk H-Costume Digest Monday, November 27 1995 Volume 3, Number 260 Compilation copyright (C) 1995 Diane Barlow Close and Gretchen Miller Use in whole prohibited. Individual articles are the property of the author. Seek permission from that author before reprinting or quoting elsewhere. Important Addresses: Send submissions to: h-costume@lunch.engr.sgi.com (or reply to this message). Adds/drops/archives: majordomo@lunch.engr.sgi.com Real, live person: h-costume-request@andrew.cmu.edu Topics: Almost Authentic Shoes Authentic Sunglasses (Green Specs) Re: Goose Down Cartridge Pleating Questions corsets & pregnancy corsetry etc Re: re; Fans? Pointer: Ren Faire costume info Victorian fichus Fur trade garb 1784 Re: Fans Fans and fan language Cartridge pleating Knitting Re: Authentic Sunglasses (Green Specs) questions about growing flax Hook and eye "tape" ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 26 Nov 1995 16:43:58 -0700 From: cwood@primenet.com Subject: Almost Authentic Shoes For those of you doing the late 19th and early 20th century and who live near a Steinbmart--I just got a terrific deal on pointy toed, high top women's shoes from the Larry Stuart Collection. They came in black, and cream leather with linen uppers and look exactly like the old fashioned high-top shoes, right down to the heel. The only thing wrong with them is that they lace up instead of button, but I guess you can't have everything. Orginally 180 bucks, now down to 17.50. What a deal. I live in Scottsdale, Arizona and the Steinmart that I went to was at Pima and Shea. If there is a Steinmart near you, I suggest you check them out. They also had some good deals in pretty authentic looking jewelry and great velvet hats for the teens and 20s. Ysabeau ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 26 Nov 1995 16:48:37 -0700 From: cwood@primenet.com Subject: Authentic Sunglasses (Green Specs) I am looking for info on authentic sunglasses, or green specs. The earliest reference I have seen to them dates about 1861 or 1862, though obviously sunglasses as we know know them today did not become really popular until much later. Has anyone ever seen a book about the history of sunglasses or have any idea where I can do some research? I have seen a few pictures of green specs--they were simple wire frames with green glass in them, basically like regular specs with a tinted lense. I am getting together a late 19th century persona and I have very sun sensative eyes. Even a parasol and large hat isn't going to be enough for me in the summer Arizona sun. Ysabeau ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 26 Nov 1995 19:17:29 -0500 From: "Karen Mercedes" Subject: Re: Goose Down In message writes: > Hello > I am not sure if this is the right place to ask this question, > but I was wondering ... how they get the > goose down. One person pins him to the ground, while the other hits him over the head with a club. KM mercedes@access.digex.net +--------------------------------+ | I think...therefore I'm single | +--------------------------------+ ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 26 Nov 1995 16:20:43 -0800 From: gwjchris@ix.netcom.com (Bill and Glenna Christen ) Subject: Cartridge Pleating Questions You wrote: > >I was wondering if this list could answer the question: when did >cartridge pleating cease to be the common method of "gathering" skirt >materials I am particularly curious as to whether it was a common >sewing technique in the American colonies circa 1770-1776. "Cartridge pleating", or as it was know before the invention of cartridges, "gauging" has come and gone in fashion many times. It was one of a couple skirt treatments options used at least in the 1850's and the early 1860's. I leave it to the Colonial era costumers to confirm or deny my suspicions that it wasn't uncommon for that era either. Glenna Jo Christen gwjchris@ix.netcom.com ------------------------------ Date: 26 Nov 95 07:06:55 EST From: Dee Wilson <100545.3105@compuserve.com> Subject: corsets & pregnancy Two observations about corsets on pregnant women : 1. The 18 c stays did not come down over the hips, allowing more room for the bulge. The 18C had a more relaxed view of pregnant women in society. The late 19c/ early 20C corsets just did not allow a bulge to appear. Even in the 1950's very pregnant women were not expected to be seen in public - to the extent of going shopping outside busy times. 1950 dressmaking patterns talk of tent smocks to hide the bulge. In the late 19C doctors commented that pregant women should not wear fashionable corsets, and wear corsets. The latter are pretty formidable by our standards. 2. We should not assume all 19c pregnancy /childbirth problems were due to corsets. The then knowledge of infections, gyny etc were so much lower than today. In the 1870 the advice to pregnant women from 5 months was to avoid walking, stay in bed. Perhaps this avoided the need for fashionable corsets ? At least one doctor recommended a diet of weak tea and thinly sliced white bread ( unprocessed brown flour was for the working classes). Bleeding and leaches were examples of the 19c treatment of the illness known as pregnancy. At childbirth time the woman thought she was a weak invalid, and probably was too ! Dee 100545.3105@compuserve.com ------------------------------ Date: 26 Nov 95 07:06:47 EST From: Dee Wilson <100545.3105@compuserve.com> Subject: corsetry etc Recently Nea Dodson wrote about modern women managing in 19 C corsets. The contemporary women seemed to have their problems too ! I have seen comments in household / home management books in the period 1860 - 1900 which relate to dressing for evening dinners and parties: 1. Don't tightlace - keep to your usual daytime waist measurement. 2. If you really must tightlace then don't eat any more than politeness demands don't eat melon or cucumber because they will make you burp sit out alternate dances. keep warm on return take a laxative to cure the constipation tightlacing may cause. One book talks about Sunday, which meant a minimum of work and clothes. On the subject of children it suggests that they should be allowed to read something other than the Bible, as long as they were for Sundays. Again it counsels against tightlacing children, but suggests that if mothers do insist on tight stays for the fashion parade of going to church, 8 -12 year old girls should be permitted to wear "easier" stays on their return home. Clearly,the idea of this age range NOT wearing stays at all was not part of the thinking. Dee 100545.3105@compuserve.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 26 Nov 1995 16:48:30 -0800 From: gwjchris@ix.netcom.com (Bill and Glenna Christen ) Subject: Re: re; Fans? You wrote: I not only want to learn its' construction, I also would like to learn >the flirting technique that go along with it. I can't comment on the 18th century, but in the 1850-60's there were published lists of what various fan movements were supposed to signal, but those same lists commented that while it's a clever idea if everyone knows the signals the messages aren't very secret and if the other party doesn't "speak the language" the message doesn't get delivered. It sounds like a "fad" to me... This doesn't mean using a fan and eye contact can't speak volumes without a formal "language". If anyone is interested I can dig out my references and send them as an attachment from a file I can create off line. This reference would be mid 19th century though... send me an e-mail message if you're interested... Glenna Jo Christen LHS, LSFS & MSAS gwjchris@ix.netcom.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 26 Nov 1995 17:40:36 -0800 From: Chris Laning Subject: Pointer: Ren Faire costume info Hi -- I have edited a Costume FAQ (written by Gaylene Keene-Bartlett) and written a second one specifically for RPFI Faires (the two large California Faires and Bristol, soon to be another in Virginia). I post them around the 15th of each month in the newsgroup . I can't accommodate individual requests for copies, but if there is interest please e-mail me privately; if I get more than two or three requests, I'll post them here for folks who can't access that newsgroup or need it before the 15th. And if it's okay with Diane, of course (they are not strictly historical, and pretty long (33K and 11K respectively). ____________________________________________________________ O Chris Laning | + Davis, California ____________________________________________________________ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 14 Nov 1995 17:32:03 -500 From: "Carol Kocian" Subject: Victorian fichus Someone asked earlier about victorian fichus. I'm guessing she was referring to a bertha. On Civil War era dresses, this is the piece that drapes around the neckline. They are seen frequently on ballgowns. They can be pleated or draped; made of the same fabric as the dress or something different, or a combination of the two. A friend of mine extensively researches & makes Civil War era gowns. In the back of the dress, the bertha is stitched to the dress along the neckline on one side up to the lacings. It fastens to the other side of the dress back with hooks & eyes. She usually hides the join at the shoulder with a design element, such as a narrow band perpendicular to the bertha. I hope this helps! Carol Kocian ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 26 Nov 1995 22:02:55 -0500 From: anderson@glen-net.ca (David G Anderson) Subject: Fur trade garb 1784 After the loss of half of North America, the British fur trade moved up to British North America, which later became Canada, of course. The Highland gentlemen of Montreal employed French-Canadian voyageurs and within years controlled the commerce of half a continent. Question: what did they wear? and how can we make it now? David G Anderson Nor'Westers & Loyalist Museum - 1784 Williamstown, Ontario, Canada K0C 2J0 ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 26 Nov 1995 21:23:53 -0700 From: cwood@primenet.com Subject: Re: Fans Amazon Drygoods sells something called "The Language of the Fan" It describes traditional fan "flirting messages" and is suitable for framing, so I guess its not really a booklet. It costs 2 bucks. They also sell all kinds of fans. Amazon Drygoods 2218 E. 11th St. Davenport, IA 52803 319-322-6800 Catalog is 2 bucks. Ysabeau ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 26 Nov 1995 21:16:18 -0800 (PST) From: Allan Terry Subject: Fans and fan language Kora, While there's no reason not to make a fan, if the process interests you, many Victorian fans are passable imitations of 18th-century ones. There are minor differences--the 18th-century fans did not have a ring attached to the stick ends like many Victorian ones do. But if you just want an 18th-century style picture you can get one. There were acceptable ways of holding the fan in the 18th century as with most other types of movement. One I have seen is holding a closed fan between the forefinger and middle finger like a cigarette. However--the "fan language" rules are strictly a Victorian parlor game. They were not used in real life in any period. Fran Grimble ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 26 Nov 1995 21:20:54 -0800 (PST) From: Allan Terry Subject: Cartridge pleating Sheryl, The latest garments I have seen with cartridge pleating were from the 1890s. I own a fair number of 1890s dresses with pleating at the center back of the skirt (usually the only place with any pleats or gathers) and at the sleeve heads. However, I have not seen any Edwardian garments with cartridge pleats that I can recall. Fran Grimble ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 26 Nov 1995 22:05:17 -0800 From: Stella Nemeth Subject: Knitting >Date: Mon, 13 Nov 1995 13:50:55 -0500 (EST) >From: Sharron Fina >Subject: Re: knitting in Marian portraits > >On Mon, 13 Nov 1995, Anne Reaves wrote: > >> donate. These bags, like medieval stockings, have the characteristic >> side-seam of in the round knitting. As Stella pointed out, only moderns >> would be warped enough to separate a round project into plaguey pieces. >> >> >I'm confused. I knit, and there is no side seam in round knitting. That >is the point of round knitting, no seams. There is something that looks almost like a seam where the row changes. Whether or not it appears depends on your knitting technique. Patterned knitting (2 colors especially) will show the "seam" where straight knitting won't. There are also knitting techniques that force what looks like a seam where the row changes. And Lorina Stephens said > Might I point out that socks have been knitted in a circular >fashion for a very long time? My greatgrandmother knitted umpteen socks for >the WWI fellows in this fashion. And I'm sure her greatgrandmother did as >well, as socks have been tubes for a very, very long time. If they could do >it for socks, surely these thrifty women could do it for shirts? When I wrote that message I was still recovering from serious illness. I wasn't as clear as I should have been. Socks HAVE been knitted in a circular fashion for quite a while, and from the paintings it is also obvious that so have shirts. However, you wouldn't know that from printed directions for knitting which have undergone a revolution, especially during the last 30 years, from flat construction to circular construction prompted, at least in part, by the invention of good quality circular needles. It is obviously possible to knit a shirt using 4 or 5 double pointed needles, but it is neither portable nor easy to do it. An adult shirt would be very heavy when you got to the neck and controlling the double pointed needles would get harder the closer to the neck you got. Now, I don't know exactly when circular needles were invented. I can only go by the fact that my mother, who owned a knitting store in the 1930s, didn't own any. We had the leftovers from when the store closed all over the place during my childhood, and I inherited what was left over when she died. The two circular needles in her collection were both bought during the late 90s, early 80s. I do remember what I believe were the early circular needles made out of metal, and the difference between those and the nylon ones that came into the stores, probably in the 1960s. Stella s.nemeth@ix.netcom.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Nov 1995 01:51:47 -0800 (PST) From: Conrad Hodson Subject: Re: Authentic Sunglasses (Green Specs) Try China, or come up with an excuse for being in the China trade, etc. Western Europe invented glasses about 1300, but they were untinted glasses for reading--a sort of no-hands magnifier. In the far west of China, along the silk road, desert dwellers had glasses even earlier, but these were the first sunglasses. (None of the Central Asiatic cultures had learned any geometric optics at that time.) These Central Asiatic sunglasses originally were made of tinted glass or ground and polished minerals of appropriate color, such as rose quartz, carnelian, beryl, etc. Their frames look like our wire-rims, but the earpieces are hinged in their middles as well as at the forward end. These were still being made in China in the 1920's, and perhaps still today. The Roman emperor Nero is supposed to have had a pair of sunglasses made of ground emerald. As far as I've ever found, this was reported as just another of his extravagances, not as a good idea that might be done for ordinary folk in more economical materials. In any case, Westerners made glasses for corrective optics for centuries, apparently without any thought of tinting the glass. It's been years since I studied this, but if you really need documentation I can probably find you some. Conrad Hodson On Sun, 26 Nov 1995 cwood@primenet.com wrote: > I am looking for info on authentic sunglasses, or green specs. The earliest > reference I have seen to them dates about 1861 or 1862, though obviously > sunglasses as we know know them today did not become really popular until > much later. Has anyone ever seen a book about the history of sunglasses or > have any idea where I can do some research? I have seen a few pictures of > green specs--they were simple wire frames with green glass in them, > basically like regular specs with a tinted lense. > > I am getting together a late 19th century persona and I have very sun > sensative eyes. Even a parasol and large hat isn't going to be enough for me > in the summer Arizona sun. > > Ysabeau > > > > ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Nov 95 09:21 CST From: ROBERT@UIAMVS.WEEG.UIOWA.EDU Subject: questions about growing flax I have some friends who are planning to grow a small patch of flax for eventual spinning and weaving. They have a pound of seed. Flax for spinning needs to be sown very close together so the plants are tall and straight. (Flax for oil is spread farther apart so it will get bushier and have more seeds). They have an estimate of the size plot, but if anyone can give advice it would be appreciated. (I think it is something like 150 square feet, but I'm not sure). They have not been able to find out the expected yield of fiber from a pound of seed, and then how much cloth could be made. If anyone can give estimates of the yield, both for beginners, as well as in good conditions with experts raising it, I would aprreciate it. Thanks for your help. ****************************** Wendy Robertson Serials Cataloging University of Iowa (319) 335-5894 wendy-robertson@uiowa.edu ****************************** ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Nov 1995 9:20:14 -0600 (CST) From: "SHERYL J. NANCE" Subject: Hook and eye "tape" I have used hook and eye tape for a front-closing Tudor bodice & it worked WONDERFULLY! I know that it's not historically accurate, but it sure made the bodice easier to sew. Also, you don't have to worry about lining up all of those hooks & eyes so that they match - it's already done! I'm not in the Bay Area, so I can't tell you where to get any, but you might try fabric stores that specialize in lingeree material because the stuff I used was intended for bras & girdles. HTH! Sheryl J. Nance ...one of the secret masters of Kansas City MO Public Library the world: a librarian. They p_sheryl@kcpl.lib.mo.us control information. Don't ever p**s one off. - Spider Robinson, _The Callahan Touch_ (Opinions expressed in this message do not reflect the viewpoint of the Kansas City MO Public Library.) >I was wondering if any of you in the San Francisco Bay Area know where to buy >hook and eye "tape". I've seen something similar for snaps. I'm hoping to >find fabric strips with hooks already sewn on one strip and eyes already sewn >on the other. That way you just sew the whole thing onto a dress and don't >need to sew (and line up) the hooks and eyes individually. > >Have any of you tried using this on the back of a Victorian bodice? Or is it >just plain easier to sew the hooks and eyes separately? > >Monica >monicashen@aol.com ------------------------------ End of H-Costume Digest V3 #260 ******************************* A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to subscribe to that instead, send the command lines: unsubscribe h-costume-digest subscribe h-costume end in the body of a message to majordomo@lunch.engr.sgi.com. Thanks and enjoy the list!