From: owner-h-costume-digest (H-Costume Digest) To: h-costume-digest@lunch.engr.sgi.com Subject: H-Costume Digest V3 #262 Reply-To: h-costume Sender: owner-h-costume-digest@lunch.engr.sgi.com Errors-To: owner-h-costume-digest@lunch.engr.sgi.com Precedence: bulk H-Costume Digest Wednesday, November 29 1995 Volume 3, Number 262 Compilation copyright (C) 1995 Diane Barlow Close and Gretchen Miller Use in whole prohibited. Individual articles are the property of the author. Seek permission from that author before reprinting or quoting elsewhere. Important Addresses: Send submissions to: h-costume@lunch.engr.sgi.com (or reply to this message). Adds/drops/archives: majordomo@lunch.engr.sgi.com Real, live person: h-costume-request@andrew.cmu.edu Topics: Re: velvet Hook & Eye Tape Barry Lyndon interview squires Leather Sources costume collections book search Re: book search RenFaire garb, Nalbinding Hook & Eye Tape Re: Nalbindning Dicken's in Vallejo (fwd) More things on velvet velvet ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 28 Nov 1995 11:55:07 -0600 (CST) From: Teresa Shannon Subject: Re: velvet > Does anyone know when velvet first started to become a commonly used fabric > for clothing? Specifically looking at the countries of Italy, France, and > England? > > Stacia I know this is late to respond to this, but I have been at home with a knee injury and just saw my e-mail after a week. I also waited to read the responses to see if I needed to add my two cents and figured I should. I think David gave a good, later account barring the inaccuracy of the statement that velvet did not come to England until the 16th century (not David's quote, but one of the sources cited). One wonders about such an error, either velvet now doesn't mean velvet then (which I doubt having seen samples of similar, though thicker more luxurious fabric then our velvets today--barring the flocked wool mentioned by Irene, which, I believe is probably not a representative of period velvets) or if the person commenting just didn't look in books, period references, or fabric and textile samples. Anyway the critique is not important. You would like to know when velvet was used commonly for clothes. In England velvet was imported in the late thirteenth century for bed hangins and furnishing, not clothes. It was rare and you see it in Edward I and Edward II for pillows and covers. It does not become used in England for clothes until the later part of Edward III's reign ( I could be more exact if I was at home with my articles) but doesn't come in to common use until Richard II (with only the richer nobles) and into Henry IV and Henry V's time would it be more commonly available to aspiring upper middle classes. This is generally silk velvet, or possibly silk mixed with a wool/linen/or cotton ground (yes cotton). This was imported primarily from Italy, although Spain was also weaving velvets. I know the Italians were wearing velvet in the thirteen century, but I don't know how "common" it was. I think the answer is that velvet was never "common" its expense reserved it for the nobilities use, which was never more than 1-10% of the population, and anything over 5% is too generous. Whether there were demyvelvets like demysatins, I do not know, never having seen a reference to it. Documentation off the top of my head. The Great Wardrobe Accounts from Edward I-Richard II, sections of which I have. I have an article on the silks bought for a year in Richard II's reign translated from the Great Wardrobe Account. Lisa Monas' article on silks, Kay Staniland's Courtly Attire in Edward IIIs court, the Museum of London's Textiles book. If you must have this insist, if not, trust me ;-) hah Anyway, England is all I really know, and that in a narrow range on specific subjects, but this is one of them. Teresa ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Nov 1995 13:18:47 -500 From: "Carol Kocian" Subject: Hook & Eye Tape On Mon, 27 Nov 1995, SHERYL J. NANCE wrote, > I have used hook and eye tape for a front-closing Tudor bodice & it worked > WONDERFULLY! I know that it's not historically accurate, but it sure > made the bodice easier to sew. I heard that hook & eye tape was not around for the American Civil War era, either. Does anyone know when hook & eye tape was invented and/or came into general use? -Carol Kocian ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Nov 1995 10:32:26 -0800 From: erin1@uclink4.berkeley.edu (Erin Harvey Moody) Subject: Barry Lyndon interview Since the volume on the list was relative low lately, I thought some of you might enjoy the excerpts from a Michael Ciment interview with Stanley Kubrick (in 1982) on the costumes from "Barry Lyndon". For those of us interested in historical clothing depicted in films, Barry Lyndon is still at the top of the list (in my opinion). I recently went to see this film again on the "big" screen and I am still impressed with it 20+ years after it was made. I think Kubrick's attitude towards reproducing historically accurate clothing accounts for the success in the translation to film. This is rather long and I was not able to scan it so please excuse my typos. MC: You are well known for the thoroughness with which you accumlate information and do researcg when you work on a project. Is it for the thrill of being a reporter or a detective? SK: I suppose you could say it is a bit like being a detective. On Barry Lyndon, I accumulated a very large picture file of drawings and paintings taken from art books. These pictures served as the reference for everything we needed to make -- clothes, furniture, hand props, architecture, vehicles, etc. ... Good research is an abosulte necessity and I enjoy doing it. You have an important reason to study a subject in much greater depth than you would ever have done otherwise, and then you have satisfaction of putting the knowledge to immediate good use. The designs for the clothes were all copied from drawings and paintings of the period. None of them were DESIGNED in the normal sense. This is the best way, in my opinion, to make historical costumes. It doesn't seem sensible to have a designer interpret -- say -- the eighteenth century, using the same picture sources from which you could faithfully copy the clothes. Neither is there much point in sketching the costumes again when they are already beautifully represented in the paintings and drawings of the period. What is very important is to get some actual clothes of the period to learn how they were originally made. To get them to look right, you really have to make them the same way. Consider also the problem of taste in designing clothes, even for today. Only a handful of designers seem to have a sense of what is striking and beautiful. ... I spent a year preparing for Barry Lyndon before shooting began and I think this time was very well spent. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Nov 95 13:02:01 PST From: ches@tristero.io.com Subject: squires With the Yule season upon us I am needing some help with a gift idea for my squires. I would like to do some fine scrolling on leather for their belts. They currently are wearing loners until I can make them belts. My need is this, since I live in Louisiana, (Lake Charles), and am 20 minutes from the Texas border where in Houston or Beaumont areas can I buy leather? Would it be easier to mail order? From who? I only have an 800 number from Tandy and have been told that there are better sources. What have been your experiances on buying leather? I really want to handle the leather and cut it myself but if ordering is best I will do that instead. Help.... Ciao @}\ Ches @}----`--,-- @}/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Nov 1995 14:15:34 -0600 (CST) From: "I. Marc Carlson" Subject: Leather Sources >...My need is this, since I live in Louisiana, (Lake Charles), >and am 20 minutes from the Texas border where in Houston or >Beaumont areas can I buy leather? Would it be easier to mail order? >From who? I only have an 800 number from Tandy and have been told >that there are better sources. What have been your experiances on buying >leather? I really want to handle the leather and cut it myself but if ordering >is best I will do that instead. Help.... If you go with the mail order end, I would suggest Mid-Continent Leather Sales 1539 S. Yale Tulsa, OK 74112 (918) 747-2061 800-926-2061 Their prices are fairly reasonable, and while I've never used them for mail order, I'm under the impression from people who do that they are quite reliable. (And no, I don't work for them, with them, I've had them suggested to ME by people as far away as Florida) You should be able to purchase belt blanks from them, or by the the standard "cuts" of leather (i.e. shoulder, back, side, etc.). Marc C. "Yes the Rum Tum Tugger is a curious Cat -- IMC@VAX2.UTULSA.EDU And it isn't any use for you to doubt it: LIB_IMC@Centum.UTULSA.EDU For he WILL do as he Do do And there's no doing anything about it!" ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Nov 1995 19:51:22 -0500 From: ASchell576@aol.com Subject: costume collections i am planning on being in Paris in January and would like to find out where to see costume collections. Especially late 18th century. Which museums, etc. thanks for any help or advice you could give as this is my first visit to paris (and europe) and really want to make the best of it thanks, denns ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Nov 1995 20:02:27 -0500 From: ASchell576@aol.com Subject: book search i am looking for a book entitle "In the Russian Style" I got a chance to look through it a couple of years ago but have not seen it since. It is an absolutely wonderful book that I would love to add to my collection and if anyone knows where i could find it i would be very appreciative. thanks for your help, dennis :-) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Nov 1995 20:36:42 -0500 From: eliz@world.std.com (Elizabeth Lear) Subject: Re: book search Subject: RenFaire garb, Nalbinding Re: RenFaire Costume FAQs I only got four requests, and the files are *awfully* long for this list; I'm reluctant to post them here unless Diane/Gretchen says it's OK (33K and 11K respectively). I've e-mailed them to the people who asked me for them; I think I can do one more "batch" e-mail if more people want them. They're available on the Usenet newsgroup around the 15th of each month. * * * I was fascinated by *nalbinding* too, and finally found an illustration in (forgive me if I bore you all...) Bishop Richard Rutt's _A History of Hand Knitting_, one of my favorite reference books. (I've mentioned it on this list earlier this month: ISBN 0-934026-35-1, Interweave Press, 1987). Look on pages 8 and 29. *Nalbinding* was (actually *is*, it's still practiced) a series of stitches taken with a threaded needle. The stitches of one row (or round) are worked through the stitches of the previous round, thus building a stitched "fabric." It resembles rows of loose buttonhole stitches looped into each other. The path of the thread can go either once or twice through each previous loop; if it goes through twice--say, from inside to outside and back again-- the fabric bears a very strong resemblance to certain types of knitting. In that case, there are only two ways to tell it's *not* knitting; (1) if there are decreases or increases, the thread follows a path that's difficult or impossible to duplicate in knitting; and (2) there are frequent joins in the thread, since *nalbinding* is worked with cut lengths, like embroidery -- the needle passes through each loop and the whole length of thread is pulled through (it's a bit hard to describe in words). Rutt says several knitting experts have mis-identified some early pieces. Knitting basically took over from *nalbinding* because it's considerably faster: (1) the whole length of the yarn you're using in the needle doesn't need to be pulled through each stitch, and (2) you don't have to cut a length of yarn to work with; you can knit directly from a continuous ball or skein. Strictly speaking, the "a" in *nalbinding* is the Scandinavian a-with-a- small-circle over it (pronounced "aw" in Danish) and the word means something like "joining with a needle" -- *nal*="needle", *binding*="binding" or "joining" (the word *binding* by itself means "bandage", "bookbinding", "sling," or "blindfold"). I've also seen the spelling *nalbindung*; I think they are just variant spellings from different dialects/languages (the modern Scandinavian languages are *very* close to each other; someone who speaks Danish, Norwegian or Swedish can easily understand the other two). _________________________________________________________ O Chris Laning | + Davis, California _________________________________________________________ ------------------------------ Date: 29 Nov 95 02:57:31 EST From: Rhane <74404.22@compuserve.com> Subject: Hook & Eye Tape TO: Gaelscot@aol.com Subject: hook and eye tape <> when they know *WHAT* it is... I like using the stuff myself. If I can do it faster some other way, I'd usually do it. Rhane ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 29 Nov 1995 12:19:39 +0100 (MET) From: Ingela Sjömark Subject: Re: Nalbindning According to Chris Laning: I cut a little.... > Strictly speaking, the "a" in *nalbinding* is the Scandinavian a-with-a- > small-circle over it (pronounced "aw" in Danish) and the word > means something like "joining with a needle" -- *nal*="needle", > *binding*="binding" or "joining" (the word *binding* by itself means In Swedish the word is nalbindning and is also pronounced like "aw" But I think it's binding in Danish and Norwegian > "bandage", "bookbinding", "sling," or "blindfold"). I've also seen the > spelling *nalbindung*; I think they are just variant spellings from That sounds like Deutch in my Swedish ears :-) > different dialects/languages (the modern Scandinavian languages are > *very* close to each other; someone who speaks Danish, Norwegian or > Swedish can easily understand the other two). Yes Swedish and Norwegian is close when you listen to it. When you read, Danish and Norwegian is very close. But for me (who is Swedish) to understand someone who speaks any Danish dialect is like listen to dutch... (When I'm in Denmark I pretend to be from UK and talk English all the time, to avoid any missunderstanding.:-) > _________________________________________________________ > O Chris Laning > | > + Davis, California > _________________________________________________________ > /Ingela /~~\________________________/~~\ ! oo ! ! ! \__/~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~\_/ \ Ingela Sj|mark \ \ Ingrid S|mmerska \ \ \ \ ingela@ludd.luth.se \ \ \ /~~\___________________________~~\ ! oo ! ! ! \__/~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~\_/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Nov 1995 17:55:53 -0700 (PDT) From: "Peter J. McDonough" Subject: Dicken's in Vallejo (fwd) I got a call from Richard this weekend --- after I sent you this message --- they need some people to help out on Sunday at Dickens (near Marineworld). If you have a Victorian era costume, and are willing to help out stage this event on Sunday, I might be able to see that you get a free ticket and a parking pass. I am going to work the dance area on Sunday. I know a few basic steps, but I am not anywheres as good as you! You can practice the steps on Saturday and do them for real on Sunday. And also establish a foot in the door, if it's welcomed, and I expect it will be, to secure more dancers in your group. Mickey and Larry were with the Living History Center (Ren Faire and Dickens) for many years before forming their group. They also do the SLO Ren Faire now, and a few other similar events. They are HQ'ed in ...... (bad memory) ..... I believe Fairfield/Vacaville (sp?). (Reference to Mickey and Larry was to go below but I don't see a paste command, so I'm not going to do a cut.) Send me email if you are interested and I will dig out the phone numbers! This event is staged by Mickey and Larry Gunn, in case you have their phone numbers already. Their group is called ....... Histroy Revisited(?). I belive that's the name. I have such a bad memory!!!!! And you got to go to Dickens on Pier 45 because they usually do a first rate job on a Dickens Christmas Fair in Bagdad by the Bay! Pete Following is the message I already sent you: - -------------------------------------------------------------- FYI: There will be a Dickens event at the fairgrounds in Vallejo on Dec 16 and 17. This is the fairgrounds near Marineworld. I believe it's $1 for parking and $7 entry price. There will be Victorian dancing, with visitors encouraged to join in, just as they do in the San Francisco/Timegames (former LHC) Dickens event, at Pier 45 every weekend from now to Dec 31st. Why not go to both events and enjoy the Dickens Christmas spirit, observe and partake in the Victorian dancing, and establish some contacts with people of similar interests. There will be people/dancers at both events who would love to attend your workshops! Pete ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 29 Nov 1995 09:35:39 -0600 (CST) From: Teresa Shannon Subject: More things on velvet velvet > Thank you for your reply. It was very informative. Forgive my ignorance, > but Ihave not heard of a book called The Great Wardrobe Accounts and would > be very interested in reading sections of this book. If you have time, > would you mind sending me the rest of the sitation. > Stacia Well I can't say I did research, but I pulled out two of my favorite books and confirmed some things I said to myself as well as found out some more info. (After this I may as well go home and sit down to look through everything.) So consider this velvet part II with part III to come. Velvet, as mentioned before was being woven by Italy and Spain, no proof has been found (that I am aware of at this date, but this is from one of the books, not me) to indicate whether Italy or Spain gave birth to the velvet weaving industry. It is known that Florence could claim weavers of this art in the late 12th century. I don't notice velvet in Spanish sources mentioned in tomb remains until the 14th, but I didn't check, either and as the book which mentioned this tidbit is the Hispanic Textiles Book I would give it the benefit of the doubt. Anyway, a date of 1278 (or was that 1287) is given as the first import record of velvet into England. Figured velvets, voided velvets, and demivelvets (yes I found them, I had a feeling but didn't know...) were being imported in increasing numbers in the first half of the fourteenth century (this is from the Museum of London Textiles book, but I maintain that clothing use wasn't common [for the King that is] until mid to late 14th c). No velvets were uncovered from the digs studied in the Museum of London Textiles book, although demyvelvets (half-velvets) of mixed grounds were seen in very small numbers. Velvet appears to be mostly silk with backings occaisionally of the three I mentioned linen, cotton, and wool making them cheaper and available to the lesser nobility in the latter 14th century and especially in the 15th. Incidentally it was in truly bad taste for me to mention The Great Wardrobe Accounts (hereinafter TGWA) without explaining what they are. The Great Wardrobe Accounts, extant from the twelfth century (but in any real condition since the 13th) are accounts by the exchequer of the King containing recoreds for all expenses incurred by said King and his entourage (remember they didn't yet have double digit entry accounting when it was started) usually containing a handwritten, and chronologically increasingly organized account of all purchases and bills through the kings reigns. Included in this account are everything from what the king paid to inns to bed down his entourage, to fees paid for ransoms, to broken jewelry mentioned, to ships impounded on Kings orders, to fabric bought for clothes and furnishings and even money paid for tailors, embroiders, painters for clothing made. Sometimes the scribes descriptions of said pieces of cloth are general, "and 2 pieces of cloth of arista for the kings wardrobe" sometimes the clerk is impressed enough or detailed enough to include a wonderful description "8 ells of blue cloth tartaryn with gold dragons powdered with red comets for princess eleanors chausables..." love those bored clerks. Anyway, the (TGWA) are in these huge books and have NEVER been translated or transcribed in totum. I am waiting for the time when some scholare gets a Fulbright to work for 5 years with a staff of 20 and just do it. What you do get are references in articles and books sometimes including long stretches of transcriptions in latin (and occaisionally in anglo-french for my period) followed with commentary. I have at least three long sets of data from Richard II and Edward IIIs reign and snippets from others, of course in articles and mentioning only a day, month or year out of the actual accounts. In addition such information is supplemented by accounts of things like 'the goods seized after Thomas of Glouscesters (forgive butchered spelling) death' or the accounts for the marriage of Margaret (Edward III's sister) to the King of Norway. Which I tend to use in addition to the (TGWA) articles. Lisa Monnas wrote a wonderful article on the silks in (TGWA) and if you delve into the past of Archaeologia they have great stuff too. Well, I'm sure that is more than you wanted to hear. Months ago when I wrote a blurb on silks I did give some actual citations you may want to go back and find them, I probably won't bring them back to the office, not soon, anyway. I did want to venture a guess on that "velvet" wool lint flocking (great description, by the way) in the V&A. Without knowing anything about it, like exactly how old, where it was found or gotten from and any attending information the museum may have provided, I would guess it was probably a "costume" or prop fabric for 1) a tournament-late period 2)a special occaision sprung at the last minute 3)a commoners attempt at achieving a nobles look for something like a miracle play or grand entrance to entertain. Quite often when special occaisions were pronounced out of the blue ("We won! Lets celebrate!") then quick and shabby or at least not sturdy clothing and attendant furnishings were requested and used. The court painters which are also in (TGWA) are mentioned for special occaisions to paint and stamp and block print clothing, banners, and trappings for royalty and attendants in order to get everyone out there with the chosen color or theme to create a "spectacle." Kay Staniland? I think, wrote an excellent article for a conference on Court Painters, supplies and clothing in TGWA which I have at home. That isn't the exact title, sorry, but it mentioned some of the techniques and requests they had to scramble to create (for the look and not the substance). So I guess that is all for now. I am sure our British friends and the real scholars on this list can explain about (TGWA) better than I, I've never even seen them, but you must realize what a treasure they are for the purposes of this group and all historians. Your servant, Teresa ------------------------------ End of H-Costume Digest V3 #262 ******************************* A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to subscribe to that instead, send the command lines: unsubscribe h-costume-digest subscribe h-costume end in the body of a message to majordomo@lunch.engr.sgi.com. Thanks and enjoy the list!