From: owner-h-costume-digest (H-Costume Digest) To: h-costume-digest@lunch.engr.sgi.com Subject: H-Costume Digest V3 #266 Reply-To: h-costume Sender: owner-h-costume-digest@lunch.engr.sgi.com Errors-To: owner-h-costume-digest@lunch.engr.sgi.com Precedence: bulk H-Costume Digest Tuesday, December 5 1995 Volume 3, Number 266 Compilation copyright (C) 1995 Diane Barlow Close and Gretchen Miller Use in whole prohibited. Individual articles are the property of the author. Seek permission from that author before reprinting or quoting elsewhere. Important Addresses: Send submissions to: h-costume@lunch.engr.sgi.com (or reply to this message). Adds/drops/archives: majordomo@lunch.engr.sgi.com Real, live person: h-costume-request@andrew.cmu.edu Topics: Re:Frock Coats Re: Re[2]: "Turned" shoes What measurements for a corset? Re: Ruching Melton Wool? Re: What measurements for a corset? Turned Shoes Athena's Thimble Contact Re[4]: "Turned" shoes Amazon catalogs, current info Re: 1860's Children's Clothing Leaded fabrics ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 4 Dec 1995 17:38:19 -0800 (PST) From: Jamie Nikkel Subject: Re:Frock Coats >Date: Mon, 04 Dec 95 10:42:24 PST >From: Stacey_Weinberger@wadsworth.com >Subject: Frock Coats > > Could you please recommend an historical costumer in the San Francisco > Bay Area who makes civilian frock coats 1855-1860. > Adrian Butterfield in Mountain View, CA. (415)962-0882. She is very good but her waiting list is fairly long. Jamie Nikkel jnikkel@bbnplanet.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 05 Dec 1995 02:48:59 GMT From: david@westmore.demon.co.uk (David Brewer) Subject: Re: Re[2]: "Turned" shoes In message <9511048181.AA818121264@smtp2.pch.gc.ca> "Stephen Davis" writes: You've interested me, can you indulge me on some points? I've made a few "medieval" turn-shoes. I've been aiming for c1460, meaning "The Wars of the Roses". > Archaeologically speaking, we first see the emergence of the welted > shoe on sites dating circa 1500-1525. These shoes are sometimes > referred to as "turn-welts" since the method of sole attachment is by > turning, yet a narrow strip of leather, the welt,was inserted into the > seam with the sole stitches. I've always heard this strip referred to as a "rand" rather than as a "welt". I have no idea where this terminology is from. I beleive the word "welt" is used in the Museum of London book "Shoes and Pattens". I've seen many turn-welts made for WotR re-enactment... (and the technique is referred to as medieval in the MoL book). Where do "turn-welts" first show up? I'm basically trying to find out if these shoes would be kosher for the late 15th. I have seen some exhibited in the "Kingmaker" exhibition in Warwick Castle, but then I could pick quite a few holes in the exhibits. > Initially, this welt helped to > strengthen and create a water tight seam. Eventually, it must have > occurred to the cobbler (not the shoemaker or cordwainer) that a > repair sole could be attached directly to this ridge of leather. Just how wide is this strip generally? You imply some significent width projecting from the sole to be able to cobble on a sole, yet state that this would be normal for a unclouted sole, which buffudles me. Why have this width? (or a better question: do they really have this width? best not to speculate on motives.) I beleive the MoL book (I don't have it, can't give a page ref.) suggests many shoes came doubly-soled when new. Perhaps the turn-welt was created by a cordwainer. Any reply gratefully received. - -- David Brewer "It is foolishness and endless trouble to cast a stone at every dog that barks at you." - George Silver ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 4 Dec 95 23:34:41 EST From: lunar23@omni.voicenet.com (Catherine Leonard) Subject: What measurements for a corset? Greetings! I'm supposed to measure a friend for a corset this weekend. This is a first for both of us. She's interested in waist training and is trying to decide between...oh dear, I'm afraid I don't know the proper names for them so please forgive my descriptions... The first is what she's called an Edwardian style--the shape is flat in the front. The other is what I've been calling a Scarlet O'Hara style--symmetrical with the waist cinched in at the natural waistline. My question is, what measurements should I take besides the usual waist, bust and hips? Draping it on her would be ideal, but she lives a few hours away and I may not have the time to do so. (not to mention that I've never draped before :-) ) Thanks! Cate ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 4 Dec 1995 19:33:25 -0700 From: savaskan@electriciti.com (Julie Adams) Subject: Re: Ruching >Could someone explain how to do ruching, like what was used on dresses in >1870's? > >Joan Broneske Ruching is usually a term for a variety of gathering techniques. I have heard it most often applied to gathered trim, strips of puffing, or rows of gathering applied over a whole gown. You can use all the classic ways to gather fabric. Gather the edge of the ruching, then sew a stitch to set the edge using a very small stitch length. Rows of ruched trim are just a strip of fabric (often pinked, sewn in a tube and turned, or finished pre-made ribbon) There are many cool patterns you can make with ruched trim. I know Laci's in Berkeley carries some good books on the subject and think there are examples in plates in Victorian Fashions and Costumes from Harper's Bizarre, 1867-1898, Stella Blum, Dover Books, which show details. The simplest is to run a gathering stitch down the center of the ribbon, gather it up, then hand tack the trim on the gown. A puffing strip is just a width of fabric gathered on each edge, then applied to a gown. To gather an entire skirt in puffs: If you want rows of gathers sewn into the gown, you must adjust your base pattern to allow for extra length and width for the gathering and spring of the puffiness. 1870's puffs go in either direction so you need to account for more on the gathering side than the puffing side. I suggest at least 2-3 times the length of final piece for gathered direction and 1/3 longer for puffed direction. Gathering: There are a variety of gathering feet that you can buy to make this task easier and loads faster. Of course you can use machine basting or hand running stitches to gather as well. If you can find a foot that will do variable sized gathers, then get that. Sometimes you need to buy several fixed ones in several gathering sizes. When you use a foot the gather is not very slidable for fitting or turning, so if you are trying to apply it in shapes, don't use a foot. I can do a decent french sewn puffing strip using a gathering foot, then going over it with a very tight and tiny zig-zag. Once you have set the gather, you can then trim the excess fabric and apply it in a variety of ways. The most common ways of applying it would be to sew the puff with a seam to the other fabric, turn the edges under and sew a tiny seam near each edge, or leave the extra fabric at the edge of the puff loose as a ruffle or flounce. If you don't like your sewn edge, cover it with ribbon trim (we are talking 70's here, right?) I usually attach puffs edge to edge if I am doing sheer batiste undies. My most difficult ruching engineering-wise was the underskirt for my 1876 wedding gown, which was ruched batiste over teal cotton, so it had a pale blue cast under the white. The skirt was similar to those seen in Harper's Bizarre, page 82, fig.s a & e. What a pain, *sigh*, but I am pretty happy with how it came out. Definitely my favorite 19th century decade... I suggest making little test pieces to check out your calculations and techniques. julie adams ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 5 Dec 1995 08:54:40 -0500 (EST) From: Christine Maves Subject: Melton Wool? I am looking for sources of Melton Wool in Ontario, Canada. or Northern New York State. Specifically, colours of greys, black, reds, Glengarry green,(forest green) and navy blue, Can anyone help? We have checked Lens Mills, Fabriclands in our area ( Southern Ontario) and we are at a loss to find a supplier. The Wool suitings that we have seen are too light weight for our needs, and we prefer the heavier weight of Melton. We are planning on making several 1812 tunics, great coats, and pants, to fill these long winter months. Christine [_________] "The hardest thing in life to learn is which bridge to cross [ ] and which to burn!!!!" ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 5 Dec 1995 09:21:38 -0500 (EST) From: Drea Leed Subject: Re: What measurements for a corset? > My question is, what measurements should I take besides the usual waist, > bust and hips? Draping it on her would be ideal, but she lives a few hours > away and I may not have the time to do so. (not to mention that I've never > draped before :-) ) Measure the distance from the waist to under the arm, the length of the front of the corset, and the height from the waist up of the back. Drea > > Thanks! > Cate > > ******************************************* We've secretly replaced their dilithium crystals with new Folger's Crystals. Now let's watch them go to warp. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 5 Dec 1995 10:20:49 -0500 From: monalisa@sover.net (Veda Crewe Joseph) Subject: Turned Shoes > Archaeologically speaking, we first see the emergence of the welted > shoe on sites dating circa 1500-1525. Actually, the Shoes and Pattens book of the Museum of London with shoes from various digs around London shows this technique all over the place. There are some very good diagrams in it. The latest shoes in there are early 1400's and go back a few hundred years from there. _________________________________________________ VEDA CREWE JOSEPH Known in the Medieval world as Mistress Morwynna Cryw. The student strives to learn to be a master, but the master is always a student. Ancient Proverb. _________________________________________________ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 5 Dec 1995 10:33:47 -0500 From: monalisa@sover.net (Veda Crewe Joseph) Subject: Athena's Thimble Contact > I also hope she can assist me with contacting the person >who heads the East Kingdom embroidery guild, Athena's Thimble. > The person to contact for Athena's Thimble is Mistress Ann of Hatfield Lois Ann Reynolds 10825 Sherwood Hill Rd. Owings Mills, MD 21117 (410) 363-6314 _________________________________________________ VEDA CREWE JOSEPH Known in the Medieval world as Mistress Morwynna Cryw. The student strives to learn to be a master, but the master is always a student. Ancient Proverb. _________________________________________________ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 05 Dec 95 12:16:55 EST From: "Stephen Davis" Subject: Re[4]: "Turned" shoes You will see rand and welt used interchangeably when discussing Medieval/transitional footwear. Technically, the rand is a narrow strip of leather inserted in the heel/sole seam. The use of this rand to attach an additional sole elevates (I suppose) the rand to a welt. Latter (post circa 1560) the welt and rand are quite distinct and identifiable by their (different) methods of attachment. As you are talking about turnshoes with an additional attached sole, turn-welt construction is more accurate. Turn-welted footwear artifacts recovered from early 15th-century contexts have welts measuring 10-15 mm wide. As for your query regarding cobblers and cordwainers - I mean to suggest (or credit) the cobbler with devising this clever method of attachment. This is not documented to my knowledge, yet it strikes me as a logical development of their trade and skill. Certainly "Shoes and Pattens" by Grew and de Neergaard (Museum of London, 1988) is a good source reference. There are also a number of good reference books on Medieval dress; for instance "The History of Dress Series: Late Gothic Europe 1400-1500" and "...Renaissance Dress in Italy 1400-1500" (same series). I am sure you can recommend others. However for more meat and detail - go directly to the archaeological source. Olaf Goubitz is a Dutch leather conservator with a wealth of collections on hand - many illustrated. Check your interlibrary loans for a search under his name. Most are in Dutch - I have some translations. Also, very worthy is "Medieval Footwear From Coventry: A Catalogue of the collection of Coventry Museums" by Susan Thomas, Coventry, England, 1980. In this illustrated catalogue you will find a number of examples but I would draw your attention directly to fig.2 and fig.12. The European archaeological footwear material recovered from historic sites in Canada dates from circa 1560 - many Spanish-Basques hunted whales and left much evidence both underwater and underground. Footwear from these sites include good examples of turned shoes with rands (no additional soles) and sturdy welted work shoes. From here we jump about 200 years to the French period and their footwear. But that's another story .... Good luck! ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 5 Dec 1995 11:28:05 -0800 (PST) From: harpist@netcom.com (Garry Wiegand) Subject: Amazon catalogs, current info Hi. I mailed off last week to Amazon asking for a catalog. They sent me back a letter with the current catalog prices, and I thought the info might be of some general interest. I quote: "Amazon Vinegar & Pickling Works Drygoods 2218 E. 11th St Davenport, Iowa 52803 "319-322-6800 Business 800-798-7979 Orders 319-322-4003 FAX "Dear Friends, ... "The PATTERN CATALOG illustrates over 1100 patterns for men, women, children, and dolls. The eras covered are Medieval through 1950 with the most emphasis on the Victorian and Edwardian eras. This catalog is postpaid First Class at $7.00. "The GENERAL CATALOG has everything except patterns - hats and bonnets, readymade clothing, accessories for both home and apparel, toys, over 1,200 books on many historical subjects, kitchenware, and much more. ... This is a 96 page catalog ... postpaid First Class at $3.00. "The SHOE CATALOG has 158 styles of historic reproduction shoes from all periods, including Victorian, in all sizes and colors ... The Shoe Catalog is postpaid First Class at $5.00." [US: check, Money Order, or credit card.] [Canada: US$ postal money order, or credit card] [elsewhere: all three catalogs US$20 by postal money order or credit card] "You may use our Toll Free phone number for Credit Card orders..." "Please note that Amazon Drygoods is a catalog mail order business, not a store. ... We do not have a display area ..." The reverse of the letter lists part of the General Catalog's index. It does sound interesting. (I have also requested Raiment's catalog. The address was posted here a couple months ago.) garry - --- Garry Wiegand - harpist@netcom.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 5 Dec 1995 12:10:08 -0700 From: savaskan@electriciti.com (Julie Adams) Subject: Re: 1860's Children's Clothing >Once again, I need your collective expertise: > >What would a boy of 7 wear during the first half of the 1860's? I have >seen a boy in a Zouave jacket and pants in one book (the pants kind of >looked like bullfighter's pants, they came sort of tight into just below >the knee). Is this proper? I have also been told that they would have >dressed like little men. Would they have worn a frock coat and waistcoat >like the gentlemen for dress? > >What would they have worn to play in, for travelling in or for day wear >(going into town with Mother). > >Joan Broneske I don't think they look like little replicas of adult men at all. They look to have a definite children's style. They seem to be wearing a more rounder collar style for shirts and little bow ties. Their pants are often pleated at the top and baggier and shorter in length, and are often buttoned to the shirt. There is usually decorative piping on the jackets and the jacket sleeves are often cuffed and are buttoned to the neck, no or very tiny lapels. Pockets on the jackets seem to fall angled at the bottom rib and if there is only one pocke it is on the left side. Many do wear a waistcoat under the jacket. But the waistcoat looks high necked as well. There are reference pictures in the following Dover Books: Fashions and Costumes from Godey's Ladies Book, Stella Blum American Dress Pattern Catalogs, 1873-1909, Nancy Villa Brynk Victorian Fashions and Costumes from Harper's Bazarre: 1867-1898, Stella Blum *American Victorian Costume in Early Photographs, Priscilla Harris Dalrymple (some great pictures of children in this one) Actually buying an older German Eidelweis outfit and making new pants would look pretty accurate. --Julie Adams ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 5 Dec 1995 16:10:29 CST From: "Susan Denney" Subject: Leaded fabrics I hope someone out there can answer these questions. I have come across a piece in our costume collection that had been previously labelled "Do Not Touch - Treated With Lead." It is a one-piece dark purple silk velvet dress that appears to date to the 1880s and is in remarkably good condition. During the late 19th and early 20th centuries almost all silk fabrics were treated with metallic salts, including lead, to provide weight and the desired rustle. My questions are; do any, or all, of these types of garments present some health hazard? At what point might the lead become airborne and therefore dangerous? How can these types of items be tested for lead content and potential hazard? Exactly how was the lead or other metallic salt applied to the fabric? Any information would be greatly appreciated. TIA. the lead or other metallic ------------------------------ End of H-Costume Digest V3 #266 ******************************* A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to subscribe to that instead, send the command lines: unsubscribe h-costume-digest subscribe h-costume end in the body of a message to majordomo@lunch.engr.sgi.com. Thanks and enjoy the list!