From: owner-h-costume-digest (H-Costume Digest) To: h-costume-digest@lunch.engr.sgi.com Subject: H-Costume Digest V3 #268 Reply-To: h-costume Sender: owner-h-costume-digest@lunch.engr.sgi.com Errors-To: owner-h-costume-digest@lunch.engr.sgi.com Precedence: bulk H-Costume Digest Thursday, December 7 1995 Volume 3, Number 268 Compilation copyright (C) 1995 Diane Barlow Close and Gretchen Miller Use in whole prohibited. Individual articles are the property of the author. Seek permission from that author before reprinting or quoting elsewhere. Important Addresses: Send submissions to: h-costume@lunch.engr.sgi.com (or reply to this message). Adds/drops/archives: majordomo@lunch.engr.sgi.com Real, live person: h-costume-request@andrew.cmu.edu Topics: Re: Moire/watered silk? Re: scones RE: Kilts and scones? Re: H-Costume Digest V3 #266 Weighted silks Admin: Unsubscribing and Archive Accessing Reminders... Re: Turned Shoes Re[5]: "Turned" shoes Re: red flannel petticoats, 1860's Clothing Moths Re: Clothing Moths Re: Kilts & scones? Cabinet of Vintage Fashions Update Thigh boots Moths ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 6 Dec 1995 10:49:17 -0600 (CST) From: Teresa Shannon Subject: Re: Moire/watered silk? On Tue, 5 Dec 1995, Drea Leed wrote: I believe, based on a book on medieval french textiles (or was it embroidery?) anyway they had them at least by the fifteenth century, possibly fourteenth century, figured silks, also called watered silks. However, the wavy watery look of moire was much more complicated then, they actually impressed patterns and designs into the moire. Satin weave, as in our modern satin is one of the older silk weaves, it is a weave and the fabric has taken the name. It is definitely from the Middle East (they may have taken it from the east) but it was used for tents, strong stuff at least by the first crusade (11th c.? Memory is fuzzy here) many satin tents were taken as booty in later crusades and especially with the Moors in Spain. Satin is used for both lining and outer clothing in England by the second half of the fourteenth century for royalty and nobles. Generally the pack of a satin looks like a crepe or broadcloth weave (this is a stretch I am not a weaver, ask one of them) charmeuse generally has a crepe back, I do not know enough to consider this a fourteenth century fabric. Teresa ------------------------------ Date: 06 Dec 95 14:42:55 EST From: AWILSON%abrscbr.ANCA@roris.erin.gov.au (Wilson, Annette) Subject: Re: scones Bonnie Do you mean a sporran? It is made of leather and usually has the fur still attached. Maybe other materials also. Scones are food. Annette Wilson Email: awilson@anca.gov.au ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 6 Dec 1995 11:12:19 -0800 (PST) From: "Carol J. Cannon" Subject: RE: Kilts and scones? Everyone, please note--Bonnie did ask nicely that we respond to her privately and NOT on the list. Her address is: Bonita Lohman <76613.477@compuserve.com> Personally, I believe that we should honor the terms of this lady's request. Thank you for your attention.--cjc ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 6 Dec 1995 12:54:55 -0800 From: Susan Fatemi Subject: Re: H-Costume Digest V3 #266 I don't know if there is any connection, but when I worked in an anthro. museum many of the items acquired in the late 19th-early 20th had been treated with arsenic (that is, organic items, including textiles, baskets, feathers, etc.) to prevent insect damage. they had special green tags indicating their arsenic status, and we were warned not to touch them with our bare hands (we ususally wore white gloves anyway) Could the dress in question have been treated, post-acquisition, similarly? Sometimes lead is used to mean more than just that element, I think. Susan Fatemii (one i in Fatemi) susanf@eerc.berkeley.edu ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 6 Dec 1995 18:46:50 -0800 (PST) From: Allan Terry Subject: Weighted silks Eric, From your message, I'm not sure whether you're agreeing or disagreeing with me. Mine said I've never heard of anyone suffering health problems from handling _weighted silk_, not that I've never heard of anyone suffering lead or other heavy metal poisoning from other causes. If, as you say, health problems due to lead are easy to trace, that supports my comments. Personally, it's not something I worry about. Fran Grimble ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 6 Dec 1995 21:13:35 -0800 (PST) From: close (Diane Barlow Close) Subject: Admin: Unsubscribing and Archive Accessing Reminders... To unsubscribe from the list, send a message to: majordomo@lunch.engr.sgi.com In that message, say one of the following as the body of the message: unsubscribe h-costume end (if you are signed up to the direct mail version) or unsubscribe h-costume-digest end (if you are signed up to the digest version.) Archives are available by using e-mail, from the archive server, majordomo@lunch.engr.sgi.com. To get an index of available files, send a message with the words: index h-costume as the body of the message, to majordomo@lunch.engr.sgi.com. Then use the command: get h-costume filename where "filename" is the actual name of the file, to retrieve the named file. Multiple requests per message are allowed. I suggest starting with the files CONTENTS and TOPICS. Note that they are spelled in all capital letters -- the server is case sensitive. When you get an index of files back, you'll notice that some file names are spelled in all capital letters and some are a mix of lower case letters and numbers. Request them exactly as you see them listed. I.e. if you request "contents" you'll get back an error message, but if you ask for CONTENTS you'll get back that file. The CONTENTS file is a list of all the topics discussed, split up by volume numbers. The TOPICS file is an alphabetical list of all the topics discussed, and a notation that tells you in which volume they can be found. So, if you wanted the file called TOPICS you'd send: get h-costume TOPICS as the body of a message to majordomo@lunch.engr.sgi.com and the server would send you back that file. - -- Diane Close I'm at lunch all day. :-) If a Canadian Had Said It First (The Globe & Mail): "Cry havoc, and let loose the dogs of a peacekeeping mission!" ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 07 Dec 1995 05:49:46 GMT From: db-cos@westmore.demon.co.uk (David Brewer) Subject: Re: Turned Shoes In message <199512051520.KAA13980@maple.sover.net> Veda Crewe Joseph writes: > > Archaeologically speaking, we first see the emergence of the welted > > shoe on sites dating circa 1500-1525. > > Actually, the Shoes and Pattens book of the Museum of London with shoes from > various digs around London shows this technique all over the place. Only up to a point, Lord Copper. I've been to check, turn-welts are mentioned in passing as having been found only in a mid-fifteenth century context, and having been found too late to be properly included. > There are some very good diagrams in it. From the POV of a someone who has tried to recocstruct shoes for personal use from it, the cross-sections given in it are pretty bloody awful. I keep hearing about rands with a tri-angular cross-section... it would be nice if the diagram showed this, or if it showed the relative thickness of the sole and upper, or... Still, what else is there? - -- David Brewer ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 07 Dec 1995 05:43:19 GMT From: db-cos@westmore.demon.co.uk (David Brewer) Subject: Re[5]: "Turned" shoes In message <9511058181.AA818193685@smtp2.pch.gc.ca> Stephen Davis writes: > > You will see rand and welt used interchangeably when discussing > Medieval/transitional footwear. Technically, the rand is a narrow strip of > leather inserted in the heel/sole seam. The use of this rand to attach an > additional sole elevates (I suppose) the rand to a welt. Latter (post circa > 1560) the welt and rand are quite distinct and identifiable by their (different) > methods of attachment. As you are talking about turnshoes with an additional > attached sole, turn-welt construction is more accurate. > > Turn-welted footwear artifacts recovered from early 15th-century contexts have > welts measuring 10-15 mm wide. Since I've never handled medieval footwear, only tried to reconstruct from books, I'm really thrown by why the rand should be this wide. Why? Anybody? The leather used in the sole is AFAIK much thinner than 10-15mm, I've used leather of 3-5mm. A rand wider than this will project out either into the shoe, or out of it. What good does this do? > However for more meat and detail - go directly to the archaeological source. > Olaf Goubitz is a Dutch leather conservator with a wealth of collections on > hand - many illustrated. Check your interlibrary loans for a search under his > name. Most are in Dutch - I have some translations. > > Also, very worthy is "Medieval Footwear From Coventry: A Catalogue of the > collection of Coventry Museums" by Susan Thomas, Coventry, England, 1980. In > this illustrated catalogue you will find a number of examples but I would draw > your attention directly to fig.2 and fig.12. Thanks. I'll look for these. - -- David Brewer ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 7 Dec 1995 09:21:22 -0500 From: Karen Augusta Subject: Re: red flannel petticoats, 1860's At 03:07 PM 12/1/95 -0800, you wrote: >You wrote: >> >>During the 1860's women sometimes wore red flannel petticoats, I think >with some black horizontal stripes toward the bottom. Has anyone seen >any originals? Has anyone seen any illustrations? Are the black >stripes printed on or pieced together? Are they of uniform width, or >are they graduated with widest nearest the hem? How high above the hem >do the stripes stop, if at all? What is the hem treatment--rolled, >faced, edged? Were these petticoats to be worn under the hoop (my >guess, for warmth) or over the hoop? > > I have an original mid-19th C. red flannel petticoat (wool). It is solid red except for the waistband, which is a natural muslin color. The hem is turned under apx. 1 3/4" and the bottom edge of the skirt is trimmed with 1 1/2" fine red wool knit lace. At the top of the skirt, there are close gathers all across the back, the front has a series of 6 tucks (about 3/8" deep) with the remainder of the material ungathered. The skirt fastens in the center back with a single small white ceramic button, possibly not the original since the hand-finished buttonhole is quite large, 1", for this button. I believe this petticoat dates perhaps a decade or so earlier than the 1860's. What makes this piece unique is that I have it's provenance - it was made and worn by Louisa May Alcott when she was a young woman, circa 1845-1850! I hope this information is helpful. Karen Augusta ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 7 Dec 1995 11:37:42 -0500 From: GDresback@aol.com Subject: Clothing Moths Hey all, Does anyone have a FAQ on Clothing Moths and how to beat them out there? I just found some weevily-looking things on an old blanket, which I am curious about- larvae or something else? Does anyone have strong experiance with them on the list? Most of my wool stuff is sealed in a carrier with one of those moth bar things, and some cedar. Does anyone know anything about the moth cake material and how it reacts with fabric? Does the moth trap that I have heard of work at all? Thanks, Glen ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 7 Dec 1995 13:58:54 -0800 (PST) From: Julie Cheetham Subject: Re: Clothing Moths Glen--If this is an old wool blanket that you wish to keep, brush it thoroughly with a clothes brush and ISOLATE it until you can observe future developments. (If the blanket is not too old and is sturdy enough, you could have it dry cleaned by a careful cleaner and this would take care of the critters.) Regarding the items you have stored--never allow any fabric to come into contact with any kind of chemical moth product, or with wood or even with herbs which may repel moths (such as lavender). The chemicals in commercial moth repellents damage fabric (and are very toxic to humans and animals). The oils in woods and herbs also damage fabrics. So, if chemical or herbal moth repellents are used, they should be hung away from the fabric. If items are stored in a cedar chest or cedar lined closet, the fabric should be kept from direct contact with the wood. Sealing up fabric (presumably in plastic?) with a moth bar and/or cedar shavings or pellets would not be recommended. It is likely that the fabric would be in contact with the chemical compound or wood. Just the chemical fumes in a sealed environment could potentially damage fabric. Which leads to a related subject. In paranoia about moths, many people store precious textiles in plastic garment bags or boxes, creating the a potential that is much more likely than damage by insects and that is damage by mold and mildew. Plastic bags and boxes provide the perfect environment for mold and mildew to develop and spread on fabric--a situation much more likely to destroy an entire garment or large sections of it than nibbling by insects. So what's a person to do? A few suggestions: 1) Any old fabric item which is brought into your home should be thoroughly inpected (in daylight or bright light), brushed or vacuumed if sturdy enough (instructions for this have been given on the list), and kept separate from your existing collection for several months. 2) Precious textiles, whether clothing or linens, should not be stored in a garage, basement or attic--environments which not only are vulnerable to insects, but also to dust, extremes of temperature and other dangers. Ideally, these treasures should be stored in an enclosed living area closet or a room with screened windows, which is heated in winter and (if possible) cooled in summer. If in a high humidity climate, a dehumidifier should be used to help prevent molds and mildews. 3) Commercial moth repellents should never be used if the textiles are being stored in a living area where humans or animals will sleep or spend any amount of time. The fumes are highly toxic. Herbal moth repellents and cedar may be used to deter insects, but should not contact fabric. In a cedar chest, contact may be avoided by laying items on a white or colorless plastic rack. 4) Never use plastic bags or boxes for storing antique textiles. Fabric must "breathe" and air must circulate to deter mildew and molds, which are generally a greater danger and concern than insects. Cardboard boxes and regular tissue are not safe either, because both contain acids. Flat stored items should be kept in archival boxes with acid free tissue supporting any folds. (Available from University Products, along with special boxes for hats and many other useful items for collectors. They have a large catalog. Can someone post their phone--I don't have it at the office.) Items which have sturdy shoulders, are not too heavy and will not stretch, may be hung on unscented, white padded hangars covered with cloth garment bags to protect them from dust and light. These can be made at home old from old, well laundered sheets. Don't use new fabric which is processed with chemicals, bleach and sizing. One source for cloth garment bags already made up in archival quality fabrics is Past into Present. (For free brochure, write Past into Present, PO Box 58953, Renton, WA 98058.) 5) It can help prevent problems if garments in long term storage are taken out, gently fluffed, "aired" and refolded every 6-12 months. Wool garments can be brushed at this time, which will remove larvae before they begin to chomp. Caring for old textiles is not easy, but perhaps some of these suggestions will help. Julie Lassiter Cheetham ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 7 Dec 1995 17:44:09 -0500 (EST) From: Karen Mercedes Subject: Re: Kilts & scones? The pouch that hangs in front of a kilt is a *sporran*, and is generally made of animal skin (with fur). A scone is a kind of tea-cake that looks like a baking powder biscuit, but tastes more like a pound cake with raisins. Karen Mercedes ===== On 5 Dec 1995, Bonita Lohman wrote: > > Could anyone tell me what scones ?sp? are made of. I believe scones are the > pouch that hangs in front of a kilt. > > Also, where would I find out the Mc Reynolds tartan? > > Thanks. > > please e mail me off list. > > Bonnie > ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 07 Dec 95 17:12:27 PST From: Loren_Dearborn@casmail.calacademy.org (Loren Dearborn) Subject: Cabinet of Vintage Fashions Update I just thought I'd let the list know, since I know that some of the rest of you were also interested in this, that I just talked to Amazon Dry Goods about the pattern supplement "the Cabinet of Vintage Fashions." - patterns for the 19teens. They said that it still wasn't out, it seems the problem is in getting the patterns all printed, not in the printing of the catalog itself. I was assured that if I'd sent in my SASE I would eventually get a copy mailed to me. If anyone knows of another source for these patterns I'd be interested in hearing about it. Thanks. Loren Dearborn ldearborn@calacademy.org ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 7 Dec 1995 18:08:02 -0800 (PST) From: Dianne Karp Subject: Thigh boots Regarding the request for thigh high boots, in addition to Fredericks of Hollywood, which I mentioned earlier, Museum Replicas also sells them. $250.00, round toes and pointy toes. Mens sizes (unlike Fredericks). Cant recommend them either way - have never seen a pair ~in the flesh~ so to speak. Their phone # for a catalog is 1-800-883-8838 Dianne ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 7 Dec 1995 20:07:28 -0800 (PST) From: Allan Terry Subject: Moths Glen, I suspect the weevily-looking things you mention are moth larvae. However, clothes may also be eaten by carpet beetles (which I've never seen "in the flesh"). I've collected vintage clothes for about 25 years, including woolens, and have never had any moths. My techniques are: * I'm careful about what I buy--I avoid garments with moth holes and buying from dealers who have moths flying around the racks. * Whenever I buy a wool or other moth-susceptible item (furs, feathers, and supposedly silks are susceptible, though I've never seen obvious moth damage on silk), unless a dealer I trust assures me it was recently dry cleaned (dry cleaning kills moth larvae), I quarantine it from my other items. (Note that even pricey dealers often sell uncleaned merchandise.) * If I buy badly moth-eaten items in an auction lot, I immediately seal them in a plastic bag and throw them away. * To quarantine an item, I put it in a tightly closed suitcase in my garage with a paridichlorobenzine moth cake. This is the only truly reliable moth killer I know of--a lot of herbal remedies are not proven to work. The cake will not harm the textile if you wrap it in a clean rag. It will not harm you if you wash your hands after handling it, and avoid eating it, getting it in your eyes, and breathing the fumes for more than the few minutes it takes to quarantine the item. * As soon as possible, I take the quarantined item to the dry cleaners (items made before about 1930 should be hand dry cleaned). I do not store any items with moth repellant--the quarantining method keeps them out of my collection, and clothes moths don't seem to fly in through the windows. Note that although a tightly closed container will keep flying moths out, it does not have to be plastic. A cedar chest with a good lid works fine (although if you have flying moths they could sneak in when you have the lid open). I have read that this is what makes cedar chests effective, rather than the cedar smell. Since you may already have moths, I suggest: * Inspecting all susceptible items and having any damaged ones dry cleaned (quarantine them until you get to a cleaner). Note that the moths may have attacked your rugs or upholstery as well as your clothes. * If you think you have flying moths, or they have gotten into things like rugs that are in open areas (that is not stored away) set off a flea bomb. Or bombs--see manufacturer's directions for how many square feet the bomb covers. Wait a week or two to allow any more moths to hatch and set off another bomb. The same methods should work for carpet beetles or other insects. I've never heard of a moth trap--what is it? Hope this helps. Fran Grimble ------------------------------ End of H-Costume Digest V3 #268 ******************************* A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to subscribe to that instead, send the command lines: unsubscribe h-costume-digest subscribe h-costume end in the body of a message to majordomo@lunch.engr.sgi.com. Thanks and enjoy the list!