From: owner-h-costume-digest (H-Costume Digest) To: h-costume-digest@lunch.engr.sgi.com Subject: H-Costume Digest V3 #271 Reply-To: h-costume Sender: owner-h-costume-digest@lunch.engr.sgi.com Errors-To: owner-h-costume-digest@lunch.engr.sgi.com Precedence: bulk H-Costume Digest Wednesday, December 13 1995 Volume 3, Number 271 Compilation copyright (C) 1995 Diane Barlow Close and Gretchen Miller Use in whole prohibited. Individual articles are the property of the author. Seek permission from that author before reprinting or quoting elsewhere. Important Addresses: Send submissions to: h-costume@lunch.engr.sgi.com (or reply to this message). Adds/drops/archives: majordomo@lunch.engr.sgi.com Real, live person: h-costume-request@andrew.cmu.edu Topics: ..thoughts on blackclothing and dyes Costume: Black wool idea's anyone? Re: idea's anyone? Re: Linen Re: Linen re:moths re: graduate school programs Re: ..thoughts on blackclothing and dyes The Seige Weekend in Fort Erie 1814 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 12 Dec 1995 13:14:11 -0500 From: lrp@westol.com Subject: ..thoughts on blackclothing and dyes Attached is a two-page document I did off-line and haven't placed in the body of this post. Since most of it is speculative on whether black clothing was expensive and something the church thought about, it's attached. You can either blow it off or read it off line to save your billing time on the net. This a a fairly long post. Some of the recent postings have refered to black-cloth as being expensive to manufacture, and something that the church could afford for it's members. I think there are several factors opertaing here. Producing cloth isn't so much a matter of expense, but of the time required to make something. Agrarian life is labor intensive, and was even-more so prior to the *industrial revolution.* The manufacture of any cloth took time, and dying added to the time, trouble, and expense. A peasant family had most of its' produce taxed/confiscated by the chruch or state. Taking the time to dye cloth was something the peasants probably considered an unnescessary extravagance. I would expect the peasantry to focus on utilitarian clothing requiring the least amount of time to make. When working in the fields, I would expect most peasants to strip in order to save wear and tear on their clothing. From personal experience, I've seen peasants in Asia, Africa, and the Middle East strip down before working in the fields. Some wore shoes, and shorts, and others only shoes or sandals. I suspect the same was true of most of Europe until quite recently. Monks joining any religious order did not get a life of praying and religious meditation only. They also got to work. Running a monastery/cloister would require considerable upkeep. Everything had to come from somewhere and someone had to make it by hand. If the religious orders focused only on a meditative life, then every peasant that could have gotten in would have been pounding on the doors for admittance. The members of religious orders were also expected to do much more than pray, think about God, and take up space. A peasant probably had very little free time. Crops require breaking the soil, planting, watering, weeding, protecting from wildlife, harvesting, processing, and storing. Animals have to be fed, watered, and stalls (houses) cleaned out. Cooking required constantly collecting firewood and water, and additional stockpiles accumulated for the winter. (Who ground the grains.) Bread making was done constantly. The list goes on. Then there are occiasional houses and buildings to be built, roofs rethatched. The additional work required on roads, manorial houses, etc. gave a peasant alot to do. Also, Sundays brought mandatory church attendance. Dying cloth ANY color was a frill the average peasant probably didn't have the time or inclination to do. I don't think the peasantry thought of *black* or any colored cloth as expensive. I think they simply didn't have the time to indulge in something they might think frivolous. I checked one of my references which includes good information on borth organic and aniline dyes. There were several formulas given for different materials (i.e., cotton, woolens, straw and so on). Two of the methods for dying woolen as repeated here: Chrome Black for wool: For 40 pounds of goods, use blue vitirol, 3 pounds; boila short time, then dip the wool or fabric 3/4 hour, airing freuquently. Take out the goods and and make a dye with logwood, 24 pounds; boil 1/2 hour, dip 3/4 hour, air the goods, and dip 1/4 hour longer; then wash in strong soapsuds. Black Dye on wool, for mixtures For 50 pounds of wool, take bichromate of potash, 1 pound, 4 ounces; ground argal, 15 ounces; boil together and put in the fabric, stirring well, and let it remain in the dye 5 hours. Take it out, rinse slightly in clean water, then make a new dye, into which put logwood, 1-1/2 pounds. Boil 1-1/4 hours, adding chamber lye, 5 pints. Let the fabric remain in all night, and wash out in clean water. Both methods are not very complicated, and for the amount of material made, the material reuired to dye the cloth would not add alot to the required list of materials. However, it would add alot to the TIME required to make something. I don't know how color-fast these two methods are, but I do know that cloth is frequently dyed one or more colors before being dyed black. Remember your physics here. White is the absence of color, while black is the combination of all/several colors. Technically, black is not a *color.* Other colored clothing might require more expensive materials to manufacture the dye and obtain a durable color. A garment with two or more colors and a final black over-dye would have taken alot of time to manufacture. Again, the peasant probably didn't have the time. On top of all of this are pyschological factors. A peasant wearing dyed cloth would probably be noticed by the tax-collector as someone who had enough time (and money? or supplies?) to put a little something away. It would lead to higher taxes. Peasants are notorious at being able to hide any signs of wealth to avoid taxes. Black is a somber color in a Western mentality. Prior to about 1500, there were additional conotations associated with blackness. In Germany, the devil was usually painted as being BLACK, not red. The use of black in religious garments was to remind the wearer of all past and present sins, and to seek repentance. The associations are fairly obvious. I don't think the church looked at black clothing as a matter of expense. I think they had to find something that distinquished church members from the peasantry and nobility. Remember the church had its' own laws for clerics, and where protected from civil prosecution. Also, the orders sometimes tried to remind clerics and members of the orders that they had a reason fo existing. Black clothing may have been *expensive* or time-consuming to manufacture, but there seem to have been several very important reasons the religious orders adopted black clothing. I don't think *expense* was a consideration. Given the milieu of the times, I think the necessity of some type of visible distinction to protect clerics and members of religious orders from civil codes was probably uppermost in many minds. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 Dec 1995 14:21:22 -0800 From: ccary@tiara (Christina Cary) Subject: Costume: Black wool Hi Costume List, One possibility that I have not heard raised yet is that the fiber was naturally black (if you are talking about woolen habits). There are black sheep, and their wool would not need to be dyed. Christina - -- - --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Christina M. Cary Editor, Technical Publications E-mail address: ccary@tiara.engr.sgi.com Ask me about the SGI lunchtime Needlework Club! Come join us! ____________________________________________________________________________ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 Dec 1995 20:13:03 -0500 From: SyRilla@aol.com Subject: idea's anyone? Hello group, First let me thank everyone who sent info. about linen and flax to me. My presentation/ paper went well. I have not received a grade on it as of yet. I am trying to make the TN Ren. faire a little more historicaly correct (clothing wise, I have no influence in any other area). I am extreamly interested in costuming and do sew, so I have some knowledge about this period design and requirements. But I need suggestions on what and how I can tell other people how to dress and what to dress as. I have lists of books and refrence material ready for people to use, but some will not step foot in a library. If anyone has any comments, send them to me personally, unless you think it will benfit the list. Thank you in advance. Kimberly SyRilla@aol.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 Dec 1995 18:32:56 -0700 From: shep@prism.nmt.edu (Myrddon Gwyllt) Subject: Re: idea's anyone? I'd like to either see it on the list, or get included in any responses, personally. :) Hello list. My first post. Joined only a couple of days ago, and have found that there are some very knowledgeable folks here. I don't suppose I'll have much to contribute, as I joined to learn, but I'll put in my tuppence when I can. Iron Oxide is what turns the clothing black, by the way. That one I can answer. I also think that the tannin addition should fix the dye to some extent. anyway, back to my usual silence. Tom shep@nmt.edu ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 13 Dec 1995 03:05:20 GMT From: David Brewer Subject: Re: Linen In message <14989.199512111005@mailhub.ggr.co.uk> Mrs C S Yeldham writes: > The European Community is apparently promoting linen (for some odd reason > using the picture of Agnes Sorel as the Virgin Mary). Anyway, they have > given an address for information: Promoting meaning..? Have you followed this up? Any chance of a cheap source? There having been some mention of linen lately, I'd like to ask if anyone has good authority on what garments linen was used for in late C15 (=Wars of the Roses). Was it just for undergarments like shirts, smocks and braies; or was it used for outer garments like doublets and kirtles? Also would anyone have a UK source for fine linen thread? All the stuff I've found is for mending upholstery or shoes, and thus very, very chunky. - -- David Brewer ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 13 Dec 1995 00:58:05 -0500 (EST) From: Drea Leed Subject: Re: Linen > There having been some mention of linen lately, I'd like to ask if > anyone has good authority on what garments linen was used for in > late C15 (=Wars of the Roses). Was it just for undergarments like > shirts, smocks and braies; or was it used for outer garments like > doublets and kirtles? It was widely used for undergarments, braes, smocks, chemises, and other underwear. It was used for outer garments by the lower/middle classes, and even the upper classes commonly used it to line their silk and satin clothing. Drea Leed > > -- > David Brewer > ******************************************* We've secretly replaced their dilithium crystals with new Folger's Crystals. Now let's watch them go to warp. ------------------------------ Date: 12 Dec 95 05:48:58 -0800 From: Dennis.Carr@651.sasbbs.com (Dennis Carr) Subject: re:moths KS> Bug bombs are indeed avffective at killing a KS> variety of insects. They are KS> also very good at making human beings very sick. I KS> am currently dealing KS> with fleas in a house with two small children (one KS> crawler). The info I KS> obtained from metro(local recycling, etc) informed KS> that inert ingredients KS> in pesticides are only inert to the bugs not to you, your children or Snip. If you're dealing with fleas, my experience has it that fleas HATE Eucalyptus oil. - -- |Fidonet: Dennis Carr 1:103/651 |Internet: Dennis.Carr@651.sasbbs.com | | Standard disclaimer: The views of this user are strictly his own. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 13 Dec 1995 08:54:45 -0500 From: loutre@pipeline.com (Denny Stone) Subject: re: graduate school programs In New York City there are two schools offering advanced degrees in costumes and textiles. SUNY-Fashion Institute of Technology offers a MA in Museum Studies with emphasis on curatorial or conservation in costumes and textiles. NYU offers a degree in Costume History. It appears that the FIT program is more hands on in its approach, but I am not certain. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 13 Dec 1995 09:27:10 -0600 (CST) From: Teresa Shannon Subject: Re: ..thoughts on blackclothing and dyes Disclaimer: *I am not an expert in medieval labor organization, dyeing or monastic orders* there are somethings, however, that lept out at being potenetially very misrepresentative of the middle ages which I have read in my medieval economic, political economics and textile trade books, of which I do have familiarity. On Tue, 12 Dec 1995 lrp@westol.com wrote: > Monks joining any religious order did not get a life of praying > and religious meditation only. They also got to work. Running a > monastery/cloister would require considerable upkeep. Everything had > to come from somewhere and someone had to make it by hand. If the > religious orders focused only on a meditative life, then every peasant > that could have gotten in would have been pounding on the doors for > admittance. The members of religious orders were also expected to do > much more than pray, think about God, and take up space. This is not necessarily true. To the peasants, and the rest of the secular population, religious life, and especially the contemplative and meditative aspects of it were considered very hard work, harder work than the fields. Meditation was considered to go hand in hand with forgetting earthly requirements like sleep and food, occaisioned by self-punishment. In addition, sex, family, drinking and games were all things cursorily denied to monks of which peasants enjoyed and relished a great deal if sermons of the day and court cases have anything to say about it. There were many reasons for a peasant not to consider the religious life and work was probably not the primary one. > A peasant probably had very little free time. Crops require breaking the > soil, planting, watering, weeding, protecting from wildlife, harvesting, > processing, and storing. Animals have to be fed, watered, and stalls > (houses) cleaned out. Cooking required constantly collecting firewood > and water, and additional stockpiles accumulated for the winter. (Who > ground the grains.) Bread making was done constantly. The list goes > on. Then there are occiasional houses and buildings to be built, roofs > rethatched. The additional work required on roads, manorial houses, > etc. gave a peasant alot to do. Also, Sundays brought mandatory church > attendance. There are several articles and good books (some of which are at my home right now) that discuss the amount of free time peasants did have, and it was not "very little." While the observation is sound for planting and harvesting times there were constant saint days, celebratory days, long winters and days filled with only the constant chores and then games and drinking or talking. Church fund-raisers including dancing and drinking were very popular. Most peasants did not have large animals like cows and horses, or even sheep general arrangements were for the communal care and benefit of the whole village, although duties to the land-holder were sometime taken into consideration and had to be shared out among the villages also. Note, the old, peasant must spend 1/3 or 1/4 time on land-holders crops and land was phasing out by the fourteenth century, the black death changed the economics so that peasants were paid with money instead of protection for services and labor. Church attendance while expected (except of pregnant women and women just birthed) was not the potentially onerous activity moderns may make it out to be. It was a whole day of rest and gossiping with the rest of the village, it was looked forward to and many games were organized. On the game theme, since I have recently read several things on that. Men and women, young and old were constantly playing games every chance they could get. Villages had teams that would play against the other teams in winter sports especially. The amount of free time in a non-industrialized society is generally accounted to be greater as labor is generally dictated by both seasons, and daylight. But I should recommend research for anyone who really wants/needs to know, don't take my word for it. > Dying cloth ANY color was a frill the average peasant probably didn't > have the time or inclination to do. I don't think the peasantry thought > of *black* or any colored cloth as expensive. I think they simply > didn't have the time to indulge in something they might think frivolous. Peasants were usually given at least money for, clothing, or cloth for a new outfit once a year, sumptuary laws dictated materials and colors, colors usually gotten from exhaust dye baths, but dyed nonetheless. I am sure much of their stuff was undyed, but pride is not restricted to class and peasant would have had some dyed cloth outfits for church or saint's days and feast days. > > I checked one of my references which includes good information on > borth organic and aniline dyes. There were several formulas given for > different materials (i.e., cotton, woolens, straw and so on). Two of > the methods for dying woolen as repeated here: These are not medieval dyes. Logwood is a New World phenomenon, not until the later sixteenth century would it have been available. Likewise, the archaeological testing of dyes certainly from the thirteen through fifteen centuries generally never had mineral dyes, chrome or iron filings just weren't used. Just because its simple and it makes sense doesn't mean that is how they did it. > > Chrome Black for wool: > For 40 pounds of goods, use blue vitirol, 3 pounds; boila short > time, then dip the wool or fabric 3/4 hour, airing freuquently. Take > out the goods and and make a dye with logwood, 24 pounds; boil 1/2 > hour, dip 3/4 hour, air the goods, and dip 1/4 hour longer; then > wash in strong soapsuds. > > Black Dye on wool, for mixtures > For 50 pounds of wool, take bichromate of potash, 1 pound, 4 > ounces; ground argal, 15 ounces; boil together and put in the > fabric, stirring well, and let it remain in the dye 5 hours. Take > it out, rinse slightly in clean water, then make a new dye, into > which put logwood, 1-1/2 pounds. Boil 1-1/4 hours, adding chamber > lye, 5 pints. Let the fabric remain in all night, and wash out in > clean water. > > I don't know how color-fast these two methods are, but I do know > that cloth is frequently dyed one or more colors before being dyed > black. Remember your physics here. White is the absence of color, while > black is the combination of all/several colors. Technically, black is > not a *color.* A good point about colors, I would also remind people that modern color names origins, were not always indicative of a color. Purpure (becoming purple) and scarlet were both not indicative of a color but a social elevated quality of a cloth. Scarlet in period, could be blue, white, green etc., purpure in Rome was generally indicative of a reddish stripe that senators could wear on their togas, the range of purpure became dark blue through dark red with everything in between. Black, would not just have been our "color" black, but a range of very dark browns and greys, indicative of a mood or significance, but does not have to constitute our black. > On top of all of this are pyschological factors. > > Black clothing may have been *expensive* or time-consuming to > manufacture, but there seem to have been several very important reasons > the religious orders adopted black clothing. I don't think *expense* was > a consideration. Given the milieu of the times, I think the necessity > of some type of visible distinction to protect clerics and members of > religious orders from civil codes was probably uppermost in many minds. > I think this is quite properly said. If one follows that black could as easily encompassed dark browns and greys from organic dyes, or from sheep (which were commony raised by monasteries in England to sell their fleece at very high profits) and that it was seen as important to be a somber color and as an outfit distinct from normal secular clothing than we have adequate reason and reasonabless for religious orders to have and wear the color. Thank you for your time, there is documentation for everything in here, but this month isn't good to ask for it. ;~( Your servant, Teresa ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 13 Dec 1995 11:52:57 -0500 (EST) From: Christine Maves Subject: The Seige Weekend in Fort Erie 1814 Hello, All I have some good news....The Weekend of the Seige there will be an international event held at Fort Niagara in Lewiston N.Y. and this event will be trying to get Fort George on our side (Canada) to participate, so that it will truly be an international event. The nasty rumour of financial feasibility was just that a nasty rumour...they have cancelled that event in August, but it was due to this international event. Secondly, I am in the process of talking to the Friendship Festival Chairman to organize an event in July to celebrate the signing of the treaty of Ghent...which will coincide with the Festival itself...The Festival celebrates Canada and the U.S.A 's friendship...so hopefully, all will run smoothly. The Chair person for this event Loves the idea, as well as the Niagara Parks Commission (Who Owns and operates Fort Erie) If any 1812 groups out there would like info. on this event, please feel free to contact me. The event will take place the first weekend in July. At Fort Erie, In Fort Erie, Ontario, Canada--To celebrate Canada Day and Independence day simultaneously. My mailing address is: Christine Maves RR#2 Stevensville, Ontario Canada L0S 1S0 I'll send any information that is needed [_________] "The hardest thing in life to learn is which bridge to cross [ ] and which to burn!!!!" ------------------------------ End of H-Costume Digest V3 #271 ******************************* A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to subscribe to that instead, send the command lines: unsubscribe h-costume-digest subscribe h-costume end in the body of a message to majordomo@lunch.engr.sgi.com. Thanks and enjoy the list!