From: owner-h-costume-digest (H-Costume Digest) To: h-costume-digest@lunch.engr.sgi.com Subject: H-Costume Digest V3 #272 Reply-To: h-costume Sender: owner-h-costume-digest@lunch.engr.sgi.com Errors-To: owner-h-costume-digest@lunch.engr.sgi.com Precedence: bulk H-Costume Digest Thursday, December 14 1995 Volume 3, Number 272 Compilation copyright (C) 1995 Diane Barlow Close and Gretchen Miller Use in whole prohibited. Individual articles are the property of the author. Seek permission from that author before reprinting or quoting elsewhere. Important Addresses: Send submissions to: h-costume@lunch.engr.sgi.com (or reply to this message). Adds/drops/archives: majordomo@lunch.engr.sgi.com Real, live person: h-costume-request@andrew.cmu.edu Topics: Re: Linen Re: Linen re: graduate school programs Re: idea's anyone? black dye Re: Linen Vineagar on silk rinses Turning - but NOT shoes Re: ..thoughts on blackclothing and dyes Re: Black Re: H-Costume Digest V3 #271 Re: black dye Re: black dye Dyes darken or fade ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 13 Dec 1995 09:02:10 -0800 From: brettwi@ix.netcom.com (Brett Williams ) Subject: Re: Linen You wrote: > >There having been some mention of linen lately, I'd like to ask if >anyone has good authority on what garments linen was used for in >late C15 (=Wars of the Roses). Was it just for undergarments like >shirts, smocks and braies; or was it used for outer garments like >doublets and kirtles? > >Also would anyone have a UK source for fine linen thread? All the >stuff I've found is for mending upholstery or shoes, and thus very, >very chunky. > >-- >David Brewer > Being a long time SCA member, I've heard mention of fine linen fabrics with thread counts of anywhere from 60 to 200 dents to the inch, but I've never specifically looked up the archaeological finds to support the assertions. Heather Rose Jones (Mistress Tangwystyl in the SCA) has done extensive research into fabric structures of the Middle Ages and would be able to point you towards documentation and finds. She can be fingered at University of California, Berkeley since I don't recall her e-mail address; she's a frequent poster on rec.orc.sca and the only one at UCB who comments frequently that I can recall. I know of a source for linen threads in Maine, USA, who can and cheerfully will supply fine linen. This firm is primarily aimed at the handweaver; they have linen thread that will weave lovely fabric at 40 to 60 dents to the inch, ranging from aristocratic pure white to the lower class flax colors and some dyed colors as well. Halcyon Yarn, 12 School Street, Bath, ME USA 94530. I have ordered infrequently from them over the last fifteen years; they have decent prices for USA and exemplary service. They might even be able to point you to handweaver sources in the UK. Though this isn't really specific, I hope this helps. Karen Jolley-Williams (SCA Ciorstan MacAmhlaidh) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 13 Dec 1995 09:48:31 -0800 (PST) From: Heather Rose Jones Subject: Re: Linen > Being a long time SCA member, I've heard mention of fine linen fabrics > with thread counts of anywhere from 60 to 200 dents to the inch, but > I've never specifically looked up the archaeological finds to support > the assertions. Heather Rose Jones (Mistress Tangwystyl in the SCA) > has done extensive research into fabric structures of the Middle Ages > and would be able to point you towards documentation and finds. > > Karen Jolley-Williams > (SCA Ciorstan MacAmhlaidh) Let me correct that -- I haven't really done "extensive research", I've just invested in several excellant books on the subject and am strange enough to actually stand there in the fabric store counting threads! But to answer the original question (which I'm afraid I snipped), the best place I've found to look for fine linen threads is a lace supply store. (Being here in Berkeley, I have the advantage of passing by Lacis every day.) Heather Rose Jones ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 13 Dec 1995 17:26:39 -0800 (PST) From: Deborah Tarsiewicz - 3528981 Subject: re: graduate school programs On Wed, 13 Dec 1995, Denny Stone wrote: > In New York City there are two schools offering advanced degrees in > costumes and textiles. SUNY-Fashion Institute of Technology offers a MA in > Museum Studies with emphasis on curatorial or conservation in costumes and > textiles. NYU offers a degree in Costume History. It appears that the FIT > program is more hands on in its approach, but I am not certain. > From what I have read in the course manual the FIT program look like it would be hands on. Courses include those that look at costume history, collections management and studying a variety of fiber contents (chemistry background a must). The school library has an impressive collection of costume journals and the school has its own costume collection on campus for the students benefit. Boston University has a costume master's degree as well. It is geared towards costume construction so the classes deal with costume history as well as actually building costumes (such as a tailored men's suit with hand bound buttons). Hope this info helps. Deb dtarsiew@nunic.nu.edu ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 13 Dec 1995 21:11:12 -0500 From: MacRuimmon@aol.com Subject: Re: idea's anyone? Hi, I saw this post and wanted to respond. >Subj: idea's anyone? >Date: 95-12-12 20:28:12 EST >From: SyRilla@aol.com >I am trying to make the TN Ren. faire a little more historicaly correct >(clothing wise, I have no influence in any other area). I am extreamly >interested in costuming and do sew, so I have some knowledge about this >period design and requirements. But I need suggestions on what and how I can >tell other people how to dress and what to dress as. I have lists of books >and refrence material ready for people to use, but some will not step foot in >a library. If anyone has any comments, send them to me personally, unless >you think it will benfit the list. Thank you in advance. I just started this list, so please let me know if I'm out of line. I have been doing Ren faires in California for eight years. Questions I must ask you are: 1) What time frame and nationality(ies) are you costuming for? nobles? peasants? middle class? all of the above? 2) How pushy are you willing to be to get people to become more accurate? If you have the resource books, often just showing enthusiasm for the various outfits can generate more enthusiasm for wearing the proper (accurate) clothes. So can wearing the right outfits. But sometimes it is harder than that. 3) How many other people are willing to work with you? Are they dedicated? 4) Are you willing to put in the time for research yourself? Often I have found that while some people aren't willing to do the research, they are willing to go along with whatever the costume mistress (master) dictates, so long as research can support the dictate. 5) What area of costuming accuracy do you want to emphasise? Some people want completely accurate details, down to the material fabrics; while others want it to just "look period." (aka the ten foot rule) These should be enough to start. Just to let you know a bit about my background. I live near Fresno, CA. Since I started doing faires in the Central Valley, I have been heavily into researching, designing and sewing various costumes for the Tudor/Elizabethan time period of England. My most devoted subject has been Scottish (and Irish) costumes, so I've been doing more even more research... mostly because there is so little info, compared to English/French/Italian clothes. Kimiko MacRuimmon@aol.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 13 Dec 1995 22:23:20 -0500 From: kl94ag@badger.ac.BrockU.CA (Kathleen Leggat) Subject: black dye Teresa wrote: >A good point about colors, I would also remind people that modern color >names origins, were not always indicative of a color. Purpure (becoming >purple) and scarlet were both not indicative of a color but a social >elevated quality of a cloth. Scarlet in period, could be blue, white, >green etc., purpure in Rome was generally indicative of a reddish stripe >that senators could wear on their togas, the range of purpure became dark >blue through dark red with everything in between. Black, would not just >have been our "color" black, but a range of very dark browns and greys, >indicative of a mood or significance, but does not have to constitute our >black. > However by, what, the 14th century?, we have portraits that show the colour black. What we call black. Kathleen (Catriona) "Teehee," quod she, and clapte the windowe to. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 13 Dec 1995 22:51:57 -0500 From: Gary Stephens Subject: Re: Linen >Date: Wed, 13 Dec 1995 03:05:20 GMT >From: David Brewer >Subject: Re: Linen >Promoting meaning..? Have you followed this up? Any chance of a cheap >source? >Also would anyone have a UK source for fine linen thread? All the >stuff I've found is for mending upholstery or shoes, and thus very, >very chunky. You might wish to contact Glorafilia in London. It is a rather posh needlepoint shop that may very well carry linen thread. I'm sorry, however; I do not have their address to hand. There are only so many catolgues a body can keep around, you know. :) >There having been some mention of linen lately, I'd like to ask if >anyone has good authority on what garments linen was used for in >late C15 (=Wars of the Roses). Was it just for undergarments like >shirts, smocks and braies; or was it used for outer garments like >doublets and kirtles? And then Drea Leed wrote: >It was widely used for undergarments, braes, smocks, chemises, and other >underwear. It was used for outer garments by the lower/middle classes, >and even the upper classes commonly used it to line their silk and satin >clothing. Actually, linen was sometimes used as the ground for eccliastical embroidered paraments; that is, everything from altar cloths to chausables. Silk was most common, but linen certainly was more popular than wool. And many of these sumptuous paraments were embroidered in both silk and linen. In later period, that is Elizabethan, linen was widely used by the aristocracy; bed caps - which were actually worn when the wig was not - aprons, shirts, ruffs, you name it. Lorina Stephens garys@flexnet.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Dec 1995 15:01:56 +1100 From: "GILLIAN RICHARDS (02) 716 3712" Subject: Vineagar on silk rinses I use vinegar to neutralise the last shreds of soap when washing my hair, and I use hair conditioner to add softness to silk after washing it. IMHO, Vinegar would probably help take out any little bits of soap scum/detergent residue. As always, try it diluted (1 cup to 1/2 bucket wa\rm water) first - never use straight vinegar on your hair - it will strip it and leave it feeling akin to dry straw. It also stings like all-get-out if it gets in your eyes. I was shopping with a friend and picked up the 2-litre bottle of store-brand white vinegar. He remarked that I could afford to buy a decent brand flavoured vinegar, surely. When I replied that they were all very well, but at that price I'd be using about 2/3 bottle at once, and besides I might drop the glass bottle which would shatter on the tiles. "But your kitchen has lino, surely?" he queried. It took a lot of explanation to get through that one. Dammit - after two week's hols I came back to over 300 messages - I may have to drop to digest at this rate. Down to 160 and counting. + - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - + | Gillian Richards - Multicultual Ed Unit |\__/| | | aka: gillian.richards@tafensw.edu.au / \ | | Official TAFE bit - did you know Christmas /_.~ ~,_\ | | is a Public Holiday? TAFE NSW - (02) 716 3712 \ / | + - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - @ - - - - - - + ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Dec 1995 15:16:33 +1100 From: "GILLIAN RICHARDS (02) 716 3712" Subject: Turning - but NOT shoes The reference I know to turning material is on bedsheets. In the original Mrs Beeton's Cookery (not the household management) which I have at home (just a repro, worse luck), she tells of * taking the sheet, which is made of two long pieces of material * unpicking the hems and the middle seam (of course, the wear on a single bed is down the middle unless you sleep very strangely or share with a LOT of people - oh bright college days - get back to the subject, Gillian) * turning the pieces so that the unworn edges are now in the middle, and the worn middles at the edges * Resew! Unfortunately, it don't work so good on a single FITTED bed sheet Gillian + - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - + | Gillian Richards - Multicultual Ed Unit |\__/| | | aka: gillian.richards@tafensw.edu.au / \ | | Official TAFE bit - did you know Christmas /_.~ ~,_\ | | is a Public Holiday? TAFE NSW - (02) 716 3712 \ / | + - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - @ - - - - - - + ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Dec 1995 03:19:12 -0500 From: Christy546@aol.com Subject: Re: ..thoughts on blackclothing and dyes In a message dated 95-12-12 18:29:36 EST, lrp@westol.com writes: > Other colored clothing might require more expensive materials to > manufacture the dye and obtain a durable color. A garment with two > or more colors and a final black over-dye would have taken alot of > time to manufacture. Again, the peasant probably didn't have the time. I know that in reguards to straw hats, they started out light colored, then as it got dirty or a "new" look was wanted, it was died a darker color, this eventually led to black being used as a cover for all the rest, as the straw hat went into it's final stage of usefulness. Of course this is more of a 18th/19th century technique, but it might lead to why some black clothing was under colored. Also later periods, was the possibility that colored clothes would have been died black for purposes of mourning. Christy Gilbreath American Museum of Straw Art ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Dec 1995 03:19:13 -0500 From: Christy546@aol.com Subject: Re: Black In a message dated 95-12-12 15:53:07 EST, krmorrow@ajb.dni.us (Kevin Richard-Morrow) writes: >>I thought that the husks of English walnuts yields a black dye. Weren't Oak Galls a way of achieving a fairly good black for clothing? I know it was used to dye straw black. Christy Gilbreath American Museum of Straw Art ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Dec 95 09:42:27 GMT From: Alan Braggins Subject: Re: H-Costume Digest V3 #271 > From personal experience, I've seen peasants in Asia, Africa, and the > Middle East strip down before working in the fields. Some wore shoes, > and shorts, and others only shoes or sandals. I suspect the same was > true of most of Europe until quite recently. From personal experience working in fields in freezing weather, most of Europe isn't necessarily the same as Africa. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Dec 1995 08:36:44 -0600 (CST) From: Teresa Shannon Subject: Re: black dye > > However by, what, the 14th century?, we have portraits that show the > colour black. What we call black. > > Kathleen (Catriona) > As has been pointed out in many books, inks and paints of the period are not indicative of fabric dyes. Most inks are ground from minerals or mixed with them to produce those fabulous colors but were never used for clothing. Ultramarines, cobalt, blacks, some reds and oranges are there for the illuminators but not for clothing. Chemical analysis of fabric and textiles do not reveal identical or similar chemicals and specifically not those mineral chemicals used for inks and paints. Teresa > > > "Teehee," quod she, and clapte the windowe to. > > ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Dec 1995 09:18:06 -0600 (CST) From: "Maria A. Sanders" Subject: Re: black dye On Thu, 14 Dec 1995, Teresa Shannon wrote: > > > > However by, what, the 14th century?, we have portraits that show the > > colour black. What we call black. > > > > Kathleen (Catriona) > > > > As has been pointed out in many books, inks and paints of the period are > not indicative of fabric dyes. Most inks are ground from minerals or > mixed with them to produce those fabulous colors but were never used for > clothing. Ultramarines, cobalt, blacks, some reds and oranges are there > for the illuminators but not for clothing. Chemical analysis of fabric > and textiles do not reveal identical or similar chemicals and > specifically not those mineral chemicals used for inks and paints. > Teresa > > > > > "Teehee," quod she, and clapte the windowe to. > > > > > Not only that, but depending on the conditions in which the paintings/illuminations/etc have been kept in over the centuries, and the type of chemical makeup up of the paints/ink (oil, egg, berries,etc) they probably have darkened or faded over time from the original colors that even the artist/illuminator intended. Also, if looking at a photograph of a piece that in itself can change the colors sometimes even with filters. Ever notice that if you video tape something (esp outdoors) that greens can take on a bluish tint? Maria \\\|/// (O O) - -----------------------------oooO---U---Oooo---------------------------------- MARIA SANDERS LIBRARY ACQUISITIONS EMAIL: MARIAS@COMP PHONE: (501) 575-4657 OR FAX: (501) 575-6656 MARIAS@SATURN \\\|/// (O O) U O .........thanks.... - ----------------------------oooO-------Oooo----------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 15 Dec 95 09:17:00 EST From: "Hicks, Melissa" Subject: Dyes darken or fade Greetings all, Regarding Maria's posting about colours that fade or darken: When I was doing a museum conservation course last year, out lecturerer pointed out a painting that had a rich grren colour in it. The colour was absolutely gorgeous. Then the lectuter pointed out that when the artist first did the painting, the colour was blue ...... It had a copper compound in it which changed the colour over the centuries. Melissa/Meliora ---------- From: owner-h-costume To: Teresa Shannon Cc: Kathleen Leggat; h-costume Subject: Re: black dye Date: Thursday, 14 December 1995 09:18 On Thu, 14 Dec 1995, Teresa Shannon wrote: > > > > However by, what, the 14th century?, we have portraits that show the > > colour black. What we call black. > > > > Kathleen (Catriona) > > > > As has been pointed out in many books, inks and paints of the period are > not indicative of fabric dyes. Most inks are ground from minerals or > mixed with them to produce those fabulous colors but were never used for > clothing. Ultramarines, cobalt, blacks, some reds and oranges are there > for the illuminators but not for clothing. Chemical analysis of fabric > and textiles do not reveal identical or similar chemicals and > specifically not those mineral chemicals used for inks and paints. > Teresa > > > > > "Teehee," quod she, and clapte the windowe to. > > > > > Not only that, but depending on the conditions in which the paintings/illuminations/etc have been kept in over the centuries, and the type of chemical makeup up of the paints/ink (oil, egg, berries,etc) they probably have darkened or faded over time from the original colors that even the artist/illuminator intended. Also, if looking at a photograph of a piece that in itself can change the colors sometimes even with filters. Ever notice that if you video tape something (esp outdoors) that greens can take on a bluish tint? Maria \\\|/// (O O) -----------------------------oooO---U---Oooo-------------------------------- -- MARIA SANDERS LIBRARY ACQUISITIONS EMAIL: MARIAS@COMP PHONE: (501) 575-4657 OR FAX: (501) 575-6656 MARIAS@SATURN \\\|/// (O O) U O .........thanks.... ----------------------------oooO-------Oooo--------------------------------- -- ------------------------------ End of H-Costume Digest V3 #272 ******************************* A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to subscribe to that instead, send the command lines: unsubscribe h-costume-digest subscribe h-costume end in the body of a message to majordomo@lunch.engr.sgi.com. Thanks and enjoy the list!