From: owner-h-costume-digest (H-Costume Digest) To: h-costume-digest@lunch.engr.sgi.com Subject: H-Costume Digest V3 #274 Reply-To: h-costume Sender: owner-h-costume-digest@lunch.engr.sgi.com Errors-To: owner-h-costume-digest@lunch.engr.sgi.com Precedence: bulk H-Costume Digest Monday, December 18 1995 Volume 3, Number 274 Compilation copyright (C) 1995 Diane Barlow Close and Gretchen Miller Use in whole prohibited. Individual articles are the property of the author. Seek permission from that author before reprinting or quoting elsewhere. Important Addresses: Send submissions to: h-costume@lunch.engr.sgi.com (or reply to this message). Adds/drops/archives: majordomo@lunch.engr.sgi.com Real, live person: h-costume-request@andrew.cmu.edu Topics: To Wear a Corset Embroidery thread wanted...Desperate! Re: Why Wear a Corset? my two cents worth Caning; Corsets Re: Caning; Corsets Re: Frock Coats Re: corsetry etc Sense & Sensibility Limbourg Cloth S&S ecstasy S&S hats S&S hats Sorry, Cunnington, not Cunningham Embroidery Question Accessories for Men Re: Embroidery Question ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 16 Dec 1995 01:28:51 -0500 From: kl94ag@badger.ac.BrockU.CA (Kathleen Leggat) Subject: To Wear a Corset >Greetings! > >Please forgive my ignorance and please help me with this question. >Should I or should I not wear a corset? >I will be wearing a Renaissance Maiden costume and want a push up effect in >the bosom. Now, can the same effect be achieved by using a push-up bra, or >does the corset do other things that I'm not aware of. >My measurements are 36-25-36. Do I need a corset or not?? > >Thanks in advance for your help! > >Krista >sunfire@muskoka.com What's a Renaissance Maiden costume? If it is Italian Renaissance, then no, don't wear a corset or a bra...just make sure your bodice is lined and constructed to hold you in the proper place. If it's English Renaissance, then you need to wear either a corset or a stiffened and boned bodice to achieve the proper look, which showed little curving of the bust in the bodice. The breast should be squished evenly somewhat flat, straight against the body, so some squishes up and some squished down. Smaller busted women generally like to squish everything up, for more impressive cleavage. I, personally, find a bra strap peeking out of garb to be disappointing. Bras have tell-tale bumps in the clothing...let me rephrase that...straps, buckles, underwires, etc. can create unwanted bumps in the clothing. And sometimes the bra comes up higher than the bodice, and shows through the chemise...check the sides especially. Just my tuppence. Kathleen (Catriona) "Teehee," quod she, and clapte the windowe to. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 15 Dec 1995 23:04:04 -1000 From: Jan McEwen Subject: Embroidery thread wanted...Desperate! Note: this is also being cross-posted to the Rialto list. My apologies for the duplication. I am posting this for a good friend of mine and I would appreciate any help! Jan McEwen Have worked on one piece for over 4 years. Ran out of my deep green thread, American Thread co. number 1151 or 1051. This company is out of business for almost 50 years and nobody has this color. I have many other colors from this company that I'm willing to trade for the color I need. I'm looking for some kind of national embroidery thread bank or exchange service, or anyone who can help me with this. If you can, please respond. Jack - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Jan McEwen, Department of Horticulture, University of Hawaii SCA: Catriona Stewart, Barony of the Western Seas, Caid Internet: jmcewen@hawaii.edu ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 16 Dec 1995 08:50:33 -0500 From: Morghana@aol.com Subject: Re: Why Wear a Corset? In a message dated 95-12-15 20:33:39 EST, you write: (I have lost the original poster's name--please forgive) >>Please forgive my ignorance and please help me with this question. >>Should I or should I not wear a corset? > >>I will be wearing a Renaissance Maiden costume and want a push up effect in >>the bosom. Now, can the same effect be achieved by using a push-up bra, or >>does the corset do other things that I'm not aware of. >>My measurements are 36-25-36. Do I need a corset or not?? > And Trystan replies: >It's entirely a matter of personal choice! Are you attenting a Ren. faire >or working one? If you're working one, do they have particular costuming >standards? If not, and you're just wearing the costume for fun, there's no >need to go thru the hassle of making and wearing a corset unless you really >want to. > >Also, you call it a "ren. maiden" costume, which sounds like peasant class >to me. In that case, the historical sillouhette is less rigid & >cone-shaped than a noblewoman's gown would be, so a corset would be >unneeded. A decent peasant bodice should have some boning to help shape >you, & you could even add that push-up bra for extra "oomph"! > >--Trystan >(one of the only people on this list who is *not* a big corset fan!) > > Just to confuse matters even more, I'll wade in with my two pence worth. Firstly a properly fitted corset is NOT uncomfortable!!!! It's far more comfortable than the best bra--padded, push-up or underwired!!!! Speaking from experience, I have done incredibly long days (18+) hours, and in my sleepy haze have been almost surprised to find that I need to take the durn thing off before I collapse in bed...I tend to forget I'm wearing it--it's so comfortable and natural. Trystan is correct in that if you are working a Faire somewhere, they will have costuming requirements, and may or may not forbid the use of modern undergarments (I'm not sure how rigid different Faires/Festivals are.....) However, it is also correct that if you are not working a Faire, but are a garbed patron, you may wear items outside the timeperiod for that Faire. Corsets give a "proper" silhouette to the clothes, and do far more for support and that "expected" busty look in Ren Faire garb than modern undergarments can possibly do. Though getting one and learning how to wear it properly (to acheive the look you say you want) may take a bit of effort, I think you'll be happier in your garb if you DO find one!! Respectfully, ~Morghana ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 16 Dec 1995 08:58:20 -0500 From: lrp@westol.com Subject: my two cents worth Should a corset be worn? The comments are shaping up along predictable lines and I fully agree with Ysa's comments. I have a short story to pass on. During my days as a university student there was a visitng Japanese Kabuki theather director. He was asked to put on a play and consented with the aid of the theather department. Two points he was absolutely adamant on were that all characters (1) be male, as classical Kabuki actors were once all males (2) and all charcters wear Japanese underwear ("fundoshi" a type of breechcloth). His point was that body movement was directly influenced by the style of clothing and what was or wasn't worn. Japanese have a very different "body language" than Amricans. The "fundoshi" helps to make you very aware of what you are wearing and doing. Point of all this can be boiled down to you might look like a duck, smell like a duck, and try to act like a duck. But are you really a duck? My feelings are that if you are trying to pretend you are a "duck" then do what it takes to give that impression. The other alternative might be "having fun" but at a cost of intellectual dishonesty to the people around you who don't know anything about the era you are attemtping to portray. Les ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 16 Dec 1995 13:31:08 -0800 (PST) From: Elizabeth Fox Subject: Caning; Corsets To fine cane, look under "caning" in the Yellow Pages. You'll proably find a couple in your area, and maybe some elsewhere who'll do mail order. They can sell you rolls of cane in any size. About whether or not to wear a corset - I am a peasant at the Nor Cal ren faire, and don't wear anything under my shift. But, my bodice is heavily boned and gives plenty of support (I'm a 38 D). My guildmistress has praised my costume for looking good, so I know it's accurate. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 16 Dec 1995 22:47:11 -0500 From: deirdre@deeny.MV.COM (Deirdre) Subject: Re: Caning; Corsets At 1:31 PM 12/16/95, Elizabeth Fox wrote: >To fine cane, look under "caning" in the Yellow Pages. You'll proably >find a couple in your area, and maybe some elsewhere who'll do mail >order. They can sell you rolls of cane in any size. How did I miss caning? Sheesh, I'm slipping. As my fiance has pointed out (our dining room chairs REALLY need recaning), caning supplies are available from Constantine's 800/223-8087. They have pre-fab rolls in several varieties as well as the more traditional strands. They have all related supplies including books and videos for the timid. To answer the original poster, they carry mesh caning (like you see on commercial chairs) in 14" 16" 18" and 24" widths in up to 50' continuous lengths (sold per foot). They sell non-woven cane in 1000 ft hanks. One of my all-time favorite stores -- though I haven't ordered caning supplies in a while. _Deirdre ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 17 Dec 1995 11:25:13 -0500 From: RoseDzynes@aol.com Subject: Re: Frock Coats I am a supplier of frock coats for rent or purchase. Call 1-800-899-7673. Diane of Rose D'Zynes ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 17 Dec 1995 21:21:59 -0500 From: RoseDzynes@aol.com Subject: Re: corsetry etc My husbands' grandmother bragged about not removing her corset when her son was born in 1904. The boy weighed 11 lbs. I don't know that she ever took it off except to bathe. When she died, we made sure she was buried in it. It seemed a diservice not to. Diane ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 18 Dec 1995 09:27:53 -500 From: "Carol Kocian" Subject: Sense & Sensibility I just saw Sense & Sensibility this weekend. As one would expect, the costumes were beautiful! At one point, Marianne was wearing this wonderful straw hat. It was fairly small and close fitting. The best part about it was that there was some lace along the brim that seemed to be made of straw! I'm never convinced of the accuracy/authenticity of any costume in a movie until I see the original sources for myself. Does anyone know if that particular shape of a hat was worn in that period? (There were many hat shapes in the movie, not all were the ones I think of as "common" to that period from what I've seen. Which does not necessarily mean they are wrong.) Was straw lace something that was used on hats in that period or at any other time? (Please specify the periods it *was* used if you know!!) Does anyone have a book to recommend to learn the technique of making straw lace? Thanks! Carol Kocian ckocian@epe.org ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 18 Dec 1995 10:24:21 -0500 From: Kevin Richard-Morrow Subject: Limbourg Cloth I beleave someone asked about limbourg. I just happend on a referance. BOURGMONT: EXPLORER OF THE MISSOURI 1698-1725, by Frank Norall. A footnote states, "Limbourg cloth was a course cotton cloth usually dyed blue. It was prized by the Indians and was a staple item among French trade goods." I found this referance in "Cotton in the 18th Century" by Don Dickerson, an article in the May/June '95 issue of "Muzzleloader". Hope this is of some help. Keivn Richard-Morrow ------------------------------ Date: 18 Dec 1995 10:23:16 -0400 (EDT) From: Library - Vineland Research Station Subject: S&S ecstasy Greetings: Saw "Sense and Sensibility" yesterday and am still walking on air. Perhaps I'll be more critical when I see it the second time, but it's the most enjoyable film I've seen in some time. The Toronto audience was roaring with laughter at the social humour. The interiors, costume,jewellery and manners seemed pretty authentic to me. I panted for Emma Thompson's gold necklace in the ballroom scene. A must-see for for all Regency/1812/Napoleonic buffs (and everyone else as well!) By the way, Sir John Middleton's dogs were every bit as pretty as the female leads! Interesting - they took great liberties with the book, but it was so well done one didn't mind. Great cameo by Hugh Laurie and what's his name - Siegfried on "All Creatures..." Woman Who Runs With the Collies... Sheridan Alder library@onrsvi.agr.ca ------------------------------ Date: 18 Dec 1995 11:59:09 -0400 (EDT) From: Library - Vineland Research Station Subject: S&S hats Hello: Some of the ------------------------------ Date: 18 Dec 1995 12:13:52 -0400 (EDT) From: Library - Vineland Research Station Subject: S&S hats Hi: Just saw Carol Kocian's posting about Marianne's hat. The shape certainly seemed correct (Cunningham? now where did I see it?) that sort of "Greek " classical shape. Some of the hats were right out of Cunningham. The hateful Lucy Steele wore the "Obi hat" right out of both Cunningham and Susan Sibbald's memoirs. I wondered a bit about a straw hat Emma Thompson wore, but come to think of it, I think one similiar to it is in Women's Dress in the 19th Century. There were a plethora of hat styles during this period, although the one trend was to wear them over the back of the head rather than tilting rakishly over the eyes. Now someone is sure to correct me! As well as a multitude of styles, they used a multitude of materials. The straw "lace" was interesting, wasn't it. I wonder if it wasn't intended for split willow. I have a bruise on my side from my husband elbowing me through the movie ..."look!..."look!" I'm hopeful that this movie will inspire to new headgear heights. Sheridan Alder ------------------------------ Date: 18 Dec 1995 12:22:16 -0400 (EDT) From: Library - Vineland Research Station Subject: Sorry, Cunnington, not Cunningham Please excuse my raving. (More sensibility than sense, I guess). I mean Cunnington's English Women's Clothing in the Nineteenth Century as a source for early nineteenth century hats. Sheridan ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 18 Dec 1995 14:22:10 -0500 From: Tudorldy@aol.com Subject: Embroidery Question Excuse me, I am about to reveal my monumental ignorance in this matter... This is a question about embroidery, but it does apply to clothing inasmuch as it is an embellishment thereof (or could be). Can anyone here tell me how far back counted cross stitch can be documented? So far, I've been looking at my documentation for blackwork, and I have to admit I don't see anything quite like that in my books, save for very simple examples of repeating geometric patterns. The reason behind this is that I just got a book of actual Renaissance edgings converted to counted cross stitch, and I am somewhat excited about the possibility of doing my own hand embroidered trim. However, the book contains only patterns (done by an enterprising modern person) and no history. Can anyone here help me (on or off list), or direct me to a person knowledgeable about this particular topic? I've never seen it discussed here before. Many thanks, Be assured, I remain Yours in service, Elizabeth Blackdane (Meagn E. Maguire in the real world) TudorLdy@aol.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 18 Dec 1995 13:38:15 -0800 From: cynthia@caere.com Subject: Accessories for Men This was just too good to be true: _A Stiff Drink and a Close Shave: The Lost Arts of Manliness_ by Robert Sloan and Steven Guarnaccia. from a review torn out of a forgotten paper: "The stuff of men's lives -- and their pockets, closets, bureau drawers and medicine cabinets -- is sublimely catalogd in this entertaining look at the clever, indispensible and occasionally foolish paraphernalia men routinely used in the 1930s, 40s & 50s for grooming, smoking, eating, drinking and other essential activities. Showcased are 150 fabulous illustrations of typical men's trappings of the day, including shaving brushes, barware, poker chips and cigarette lighters, plus advertisizing images and product designs of a bygone era." --cin ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 18 Dec 1995 16:13:17 From: Joe Cook Subject: Re: Embroidery Question > To: mail@ih {h-costume@lunch.engr.sgi.com} > Date: 18-Dec-95 14:22:10 -0500 > Subject: Embroidery Question > From: mail@ih {Tudorldy@aol.com} > > Excuse me, I am about to reveal my monumental ignorance in this matter... > > This is a question about embroidery, but it does apply to clothing inasmuch > as it is an embellishment thereof (or could be). > > Can anyone here tell me how far back counted cross stitch can be documented? > So far, I've been looking at my documentation for blackwork, and I have to > admit I don't see anything quite like that in my books, save for very simple > examples of repeating geometric patterns. > > The reason behind this is that I just got a book of actual Renaissance > edgings converted to counted cross stitch, and I am somewhat excited about > the possibility of doing my own hand embroidered trim. However, the book > contains only patterns (done by an enterprising modern person) and no > history. > > Can anyone here help me (on or off list), or direct me to a person > knowledgeable about this particular topic? I've never seen it discussed here > before. > > Many thanks, > Be assured, I remain > Yours in service, > Elizabeth Blackdane (Meagn E. Maguire in the real world) > TudorLdy@aol.com Hmmmmm. That really depends upon when, where, and how the cross stitch is used. There is an extent example of a seal pouch from June of, I believe, 1317 that depicts a saint and several dragons. The pouch itself uses several types of stitches, however, the background "fill stitch" is cross stitch. Tent stitch is documentable to much, much earlier times and is basically one half of a cross-stitch (a series of diagonals only going in one direction, and not 2). When talking about making your own trim, most likely it is not 100% correct to do it using JUST a cross-stitch. Yes, they had embroidery patterns. Yes, they used cross-stitch. However, I have not seen any examples where I have seen trim using exclusively this one type of stitch. You may wish to look at a couple of books on the subject to assist. I would HIGHLY recommend looking at "Medieval Craftsmen: Embroiderers." This book shows several examples of extent items, portraits showing embroidery, plaits, prints, patterns, etc. Also, there are a number of museum catalogs from the Victoria and Albert museum out there for use. In addition, if you wish to look at blackwork which became "all the rage" in England during the English Renaissance, I would look at "Blackwork" by Geddes. It is small with only a portion dedicated to history, but what little it covers is very well done. Also, it is an easy to find book. Good luck and, most importantly, have fun! Joe Cook ------------------------------ End of H-Costume Digest V3 #274 ******************************* A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to subscribe to that instead, send the command lines: unsubscribe h-costume-digest subscribe h-costume end in the body of a message to majordomo@lunch.engr.sgi.com. Thanks and enjoy the list!