From: owner-h-costume-digest (H-Costume Digest) To: h-costume-digest@lunch.engr.sgi.com Subject: H-Costume Digest V3 #276 Reply-To: h-costume Sender: owner-h-costume-digest@lunch.engr.sgi.com Errors-To: owner-h-costume-digest@lunch.engr.sgi.com Precedence: bulk H-Costume Digest Sunday, December 24 1995 Volume 3, Number 276 Compilation copyright (C) 1995 Diane Barlow Close and Gretchen Miller Use in whole prohibited. Individual articles are the property of the author. Seek permission from that author before reprinting or quoting elsewhere. Important Addresses: Send submissions to: h-costume@lunch.engr.sgi.com (or reply to this message). Adds/drops/archives: majordomo@lunch.engr.sgi.com Real, live person: h-costume-request@andrew.cmu.edu Topics: Costumecon Re: CostumeCon Japanese subjects RE: Japanese subjects Black and Peasantry Re: Costumes & other stuff, 1700's America corsets & pregancy purpose of h-costume 17th century movies Removing Rust Stains Black Re: Restoration Movie 1770's Frock Coat Question??? Metropolitan Museum of Art question on 1890's "vest" ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 20 Dec 1995 15:56:14 -0800 From: kondoa@ucs.orst.edu Subject: Costumecon I think the upcoming costumecons are Baltimore in 1997, St. Louis in 1998, & LA in 2000 (I don't know if locations for 1999 have been bid on yet). CostumeCon programming includes historical, fantasy/SF, & wearable art programming & also hold compettions in all three subjects. Alison ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Dec 95 16:06:12 PST From: Kat@grendal.rain.com (June Russell) Subject: Re: CostumeCon :Wait! I was interested in that info. Could someone post the whereabouts of :the 1996 and '97 con? Costume Con 14 (May 23-27, 1996) is in Seattle, WA. $65 until May 1, 1996. CotumeCon 14 PO Box 1095 Renton, Wa 98057-1095 I don't have the info on '97, but I'm really excited about '96 because it is so close to home. Kat Kateryne of Hindscroft ( June Russell ) pacifier.com!grendal!kat kat@grendal.rain.com Heu! Tintinnuntius meus Sonat! ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Dec 1995 17:34:39 -0800 From: kondoa@ucs.orst.edu Subject: Japanese subjects I would be interested in discussing Japanese clothing, historical or otherwise. I'm working on a thesis concerning Japanes dress in the 20th century. Alison ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Dec 95 19:49:55 PST From: ches@tristero.io.com Subject: RE: Japanese subjects > > I would be interested in discussing Japanese clothing, historical >or otherwise. I'm working on a thesis concerning Japanese dress in the >20th century. > > Alison I have made three Kimonos, several Hakamas, and Kagimas (sp?). I had a theme wedding, brides through the ages. At my wedding I made a mock wedding Kimono. Instead of 35 layers I made two exquisite Kimonos. One was the one that goes against the skin tightly with the Obi. The other was the outer one with 34 different collars of prints and solids, lined with purple silk, and the quilted roll. Since the wedding was in August it seemed easier to do it this way, I used summer colors. The pattern I used was from Japan and belonged to the brides maid it was to fit. She is Scot/Japanese, and 5'10. It came with a book discussing the different Kimonos through the centuries including the 20th c. I believe the one we chose was from 1200. I could find out the name of the book and pattern and where she got it, or I could give you her email address. Let me know. Ciao @}\ Ches @}----`--,-- @}/ ------------------------------ Date: 21 Dec 95 13:07:00 GMT From: Mrs C S Yeldham Subject: Black and Peasantry Disclaimer: I'm not a medieval expert - but I have read extensively on medieval/early modern society. BTW this is a long post! I'm afraid I found lrp@westol.com's note on 12 December something of a curate's egg. There were some good comments, but the general picture of medieval life I just didn't recognise, so feel I must take issue. I don't want to paint a 'Merry England' view, just to balance the bleakness! lrp@westol.com (a name would be easier!) seemed to me to talking about a subsistence economy of oppressed people - this is surely only part of the story. They did think in terms of the three divisions of society, those who work, those who fight and those who pray (and had real problems coping philosophically with people who didn't 'fit' the categories eg merchants richer than nobles). However, equally important in the medieval world view was the idea of the tree - everyone in their place and *interdependent on each other*. The term 'medieval' covers a wide area, historically, politically and geographically (even assuming you are talking about Western Europe). The SCA covers 600 - 1600 (although many historians take the early modern period to start with the discovery of American, the impact is debateable until the 17th century, apart from the Spanish economy and the rise of licenced privateers in the late 16th century, so lets accept 1600). Geographically you are covering a period when the Roman Empire is still alive and kicking, even if your particular geographical area was never roman, to the roots of the colonial period. It covers from Iceland to western Russia. Politically you are moving from the serfdom of Russia, with the serfs tied to property and bought and sold with it, to the city states of Italy. The term 'peasants' implies a certain relationship with the land, and the land owner which doesn't apply for large areas/periods of the period in question. As Teresa said, agricultural work is highly seasonal, with periods of intense work (when depends on the type of agriculture), but that leaves plenty of time for leisure. Working hours were also legislated - Breugel's harvesters are not avoiding work, they are taking their legally appointed dinner break (1.5 hours in England). Towns did not hold a high percentage of population during the period, but had a much greater importance than that implies, one example from a fairly undeveloped country - the rejection of the Empress Matilda by the City of London was as crucial in the development of the civil war as the involvement of any of the nobles. The general population was not passive, accepting whatever the church and nobles imposed on them - there is a continuous pattern of local and national resistance to government when people disapproved of various actions. With specific reference to cloth, I found this quote in Anne Hollander's 'Seeing Through Clothes'. "Ancient Greeks had made their woolen cloth at home and lived familiarly with it. Like oil or milk, it was a natural element of which the humble source was seen and known. Medieval Europeans lived not so much with it as on it; and cloth to them was an economic rather than a natural staple, a manufactured commodity of prime importance." So, someone making cloth independently, throughout most of Western Europe, would be producing it as his 'cash crop' to sell to a merchant (for an agreed value, even if coins did not change hands). The merchant, as in previous discussions on the list, would probably sell on the cloth to a major dying centre like Flanders, and it would be sold on as finished cloth, probably back to the people who wove the cloth. Dying was a major industrial process and nearly all cloth was dyed in the piece, not in the wool, it was unlikely to be done on an ad hoc basis, except in places like the Highlands of Scotland. Dying of various colours involved different costs, so would then be a factor when purchasing cloth. Certainly by the late medieval period, much of Europe was a cash economy - items were accounted for in money, even if barter was extensively used. Stripping off in the fields - unlikely for most of the year in European weather, and in hot weather what about sunburn! Besides, having a tan was a sign of being lower class (I don't know how much this would affect working people). The only reference to 'nakedness' I have come across relates to the scullions in Henry VIII's kitchens (Eltham Ordnances) where instructions are given that they are to be properly clothed. The orders of monks varied enormously (as I tried to point out in my post). The major order was the Benedictine, who had the threefold division of the day (work, rest and prayer). The level of deprivation depended on how recently an influential reformer had swept through the system! Other orders varied - the one with the highest reputation for asceticism was the Carthusian, vegetarian, living in self-contained cells for 23 hours a day and only seeing the other monks during the daily service. They divided their time between reading/meditating, tending their (solitary) garden and work - usually weaving. There are the ruins of a Carthusian priory at Mount Grace Priory in Yorkshire, with a rebuilt cell - which is surprisingly spacious (they have also found lots of fish bones, so the 'vegetarian' is in doubt!). Thomas More considered joining the order. It looks peaceful, spare, - perhaps it was the lack of company that was such a deprivation to medieval eyes. This isolated life was supported by the labour of lay brothers, who did most of the hard work in most of the orders, lived in their separate areas and probably barely seen by the monks most of the time. If an agricultural worker joined a monastery, thats what he would become, monks were supposed to be more educated, capable of being priests. So his work level would remain much the same. However, I think it is a 20th century, western, idea that heavy physical labour is something to be avoided at all costs (hence all the hours we work in order to purchase 'labour-saving devices'). Coupled with the skill required for most of the tasks needed (and I've done some of them in period style, so I know the ones I am skilled at are much easier than the ones I'm learning), there is potential pride in your ability to do something. The Guild system shows a desire to maintain and raise standards, and pride in their communal abilities (Duffy's Raising(?) of the Altars' talks a lot about this). Returning to the 'peasants wore undyed cloth' - we have discussed the changing colours in pictures and the fact that a colour in a picture does not prove that colour was used on cloth. However, every picture of working people I can think of (Breugel springs to mind) shows people wearing coloured clothes, even the beggars, usually over a white undergarment. Was this just a painters convention, or a reflection of reality. Breugel's winter scene with hunters is almost a black and white picture, except for the people in the house, wearing brightly coloured clothes by a fire. The symbolism of black is complicated, and discussed by Anne Hollander in 'Seeing Through Clothes'. She says black started as a mourning colour, from Mediterranean antiquity. It then became appropriate for the dress of ascetics and God's ministers (symbolic mourning - withdrawal from world?). The Benedictines and Augustinian monks wore unrelieved black, the Dominican order wore a black cloak over a white tunic. The church used, and uses colours because of the symbolism, but the judgement about expense is not simply about whether the church could afford the colour, but also about being seen to be able to afford the colour. The Pope wears white as symbolism of innocence and separation from the world, but also because white involvesa great deal of upkeep - he is separated from the world by other peoples labour. The Franciscans wore 'homespun' as an active statement of poverty - it was cheap and needs little upkeep. As to protection from the civil authorities, certainly in England the 'neck verse' was used (which was the first verse of one of the psalms) - any man able to quote it was immune from the civil authorities. Anne Hollander again "The blackness of the devil and the blackness of godly renunciation are always played off against each other in the modish use of black for clothes." I hope some readers found this of interest. Caroline ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Dec 1995 15:08:26 -0500 From: SCMom@aol.com Subject: Re: Costumes & other stuff, 1700's America The Village of Cahokia (Across the Mississippi river from St. Louis) will be celebrating its tricentennial during the entire year of 1999. The local Scout troops and packs will be making a full scale French fort, settlement, Mission, and Native American village. The scouts and their parents will be the actors for the reinactment and demonstrations of sports and everyday life. We are looking for people who can help us with costume patterns and design for the period. We are also looking for people who can help with the design of the other stuff that will be needed. We expect to have National media coverage and thousands upon thousands of visitors to our community. Any help that you may be able to give us will be greatly appreciated. Please e-mail me at SCMom@aol.com. Thank you very much for your help and input. Sincerely, Kathy D. ------------------------------ Date: 21 Dec 95 13:02:43 EST From: Dee Wilson <100545.3105@compuserve.com> Subject: corsets & pregancy A few days ago someone wrote ( sorry, I have deleted the orginal) that her grandmother wore corsets throughout pregnancy. Today we might shudder at this "abuse" of both mother and infant, but up to 50 years ago "sensible" corsets were recommended for pregnant women. 19C doctors did say that "fashionable" corsets were harmful generally, particularly so in pregancy. ( or as one writer put it - fulfilling the dearest office of motherhood). I have read ( somewhere???) in an autobiography of woman born 1890. She said that she married late and had a series of miscarriages in the late 1920s. She wrote that her doctor blamed the miscarriages on the tight stays she wore from age 13 onwards. I know it is impossible to diagnose the cause of the miscarriages, it is significant that both the writer and the doctor blamed them on early 20C corsetry. On a lighter note...how DO you enjoy Christmas dinner in a tight corset ? I can remember a few years ago a long line bra spoiling the meal ! Dee 100545.3105@compuserve.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Dec 1995 15:55:15 -0500 From: lrp@westol.com Subject: purpose of h-costume A recent post of mine regarding blackclothing and peasants contained some comments which were speculative in nature and related to my thoughts on how much "free time" peasants might/might not have. As such the comments were an attached document that were not directly related to the purpose of the list. H-costume is a broad based group that covers the last 5000 years of clothing and around the world. It is not meant to be an adjunct of the S.C.A. although there is a heavy emphasis on the S.C.A.'s main area of emphasis. My comments generated some additional on-line comments directed to the group as a whole (and me). I will not respond to these comments on-line, as they are a digression from the purpose of h-costume and very tangental. I will gladly respond off the list via personal e-mail. Les ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Dec 1995 10:52:54 -0500 From: kl94ag@badger.ac.BrockU.CA (Kathleen Leggat) Subject: 17th century movies > There haven't been many >movies set in that time frame recently--the Disney 3 Musketeers is all that >comes to mind and that movie wasn't exactly about historic accuracy. > >Ysa No, no underpinnings on the women. Can't hold a candle to the one with Michael York. Of course, that's early 17th century. I agree about Forever Amber... Kathleen (Catriona) "Teehee," quod she, and clapte the windowe to. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Dec 1995 22:36:05 -0500 From: monalisa@sover.net (Veda Crewe Joseph) Subject: Removing Rust Stains Does anyone have experience removing rust stains from antique clothing? My friend Susan has some turn of the century clothing, mostly cotton and lace, which has been in storage for many years. She has washed the things with Ivory flakes which has brightened the whites nicely but it has also brightened the rust stains. Any suggestions? _________________________________________________ VEDA CREWE JOSEPH Known in the Medieval world as Mistress Morwynna Cryw. The student strives to learn to be a master, but the master is always a student. Ancient Proverb. _________________________________________________ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Dec 1995 23:00:23 -0500 From: monalisa@sover.net (Veda Crewe Joseph) Subject: Black It seems that we all define black a little differently. As an artist I use many different kinds of black pigments, some warmer "brown-blacks" and others cooler "blue-blacks". I have observed that even modern cloth which started out seemingly "true" black will fade and go in some other direction after many washings. So the point escapes me if the color achieved by certain natural dye processes looks more like a very dark brown. The effect is black. This would leave us with a huge range of options for making fabric "black". Black is in the eye of the beholder. _________________________________________________ VEDA CREWE JOSEPH Known in the Medieval world as Mistress Morwynna Cryw. The student strives to learn to be a master, but the master is always a student. Ancient Proverb. _________________________________________________ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Dec 1995 20:23:10 -0800 (PST) From: "erin k. gault" Subject: Re: Restoration Movie On Tue, 19 Dec 1995 kondoa@ucs.orst.edu wrote: > > I saw clips from a new historical costume movie called > "Restoration" last night. It looked to be about Charles 2'ish > time period (can't tell exactly in 60 seconds with scene changes > whipping by...). Has anybody seen this? how are the costumes? This last Wednesday I was lucky enough to see a preview screening of this movie in Seattle. It was set in 1663 (at least in the very beginning) and pretty interesting as a movie. The costumes were beautiful. In fact I was kind of annoyed after seeing the movie because there weren't enough scenes with nobles in them or enough close ups of the clothing. I'm not really sure how accurate the peasants clothing was but the nobles clothing looked very accurate. The movie was really neat because it showed the extravagance of the period. Oh yeah, there was one scene that makes me want to rent the movie when it becomes available on video. It had about 50 women in beautiful dresses all in a courtyard outside lounging around. The scene went so fast that I could only look at one dress, kind of. Well, the movie opens January 26 and I recommend everyone see it. ***************************************************************** * Erin K. Gault Evergreen State College * * Eglentyne de Gaulle College of Witt's Haven * * Barony of Glymm Mere, Kingdom of An Tir * * e-mail: gaulte@elwha.evergreen.edu * ***************************************************************** > I wonder if the success of "Dangerous Liasions" started > a trend, there seem to have been a lot more big "historical" > movies out since then. (Sort of like "Star Wars" reviving an > interest in making science fiction films). > > Alison > > ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 23 Dec 1995 14:52:56 CDT From: TOMBGUARD Subject: 1770's Frock Coat Question??? I am using a J.P. Ryan pattern in an attempt to make a 1770's Gentleman's Frock Coat. According to Mrs. Ryan the coat is designed to fit snug, especially in the sleeves, just how snug is snug. I am having trouble getting one of her patterns to work well for me. I have bought two and will not buy another (two is thirty dollars and that is more than enough money to spend on this). If I have to I will just do without a coat. I have made a practice out of muslin and the sleeves are so tight that I have trouble fitting the coat over my shirt, does anyone know if this is correct or not?? The coat barely comes together at the top, now I know they were not buttoned at the bottom, but how about the top?? I don't want to spend some money on wool and linen, just to have a coat that I can not wear. Any help would be appreciated. Thanks, RObert Robert H. Neidlinger NEIDLRH@WKUVX1.WKU.EDU "The Tomb Guard" Robert.Neidlinger@BGAMUG.COM "Ask me a question and I'll reply, Cottleston, Cottleston, Cottleston Pie" Winnie the Pooh ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 23 Dec 1995 16:08:48 -0800 From: shepgibb@mcn.org Subject: Metropolitan Museum of Art The Met finally has a Web Page In looking through it one would think that they have nothing on the Costume Institute (if you activate COLLECTIONS they show floor plans and on the ground floor they do not mention it) but when GROUND FLOOR is activated this does appear (if you had never been there or have forgotten where it is in the museum you would never find it). They have one costume (an evening gown by Worth) that can be enlarged. That's it. The site does have a place where you can send comments to the museum. I feel that it would be nice to see more and especially special exhibits of costume and said so. R.L. Shep ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 23 Dec 1995 23:56:16 -0800 From: knowles@netcom.com (Sheryl Knowles) Subject: question on 1890's "vest" Hello, I'm Sunshine Fuller, I'm a student in costume design and I'm using my mother's account, to which any replys can be sent. My question is, what was worn under a woman's corset c.1893-1903. I can find a few pictures of chemises but the text all says that chemises were generaly going/gone out of fashion. In talking about combinations three diffrent sources I have quote this one advertisement; "New undergarment of fine muslin edged with lace, combining low bodice, petticoat and drawers, worn over the corset which is worn over the vest." I can't find much more about what a vest is, and no pictures so I can't make a pattern. I'd really appriciate help, thank you very much. Sunshine (mother's address: knowles@netcom.com) ------------------------------ End of H-Costume Digest V3 #276 ******************************* A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to subscribe to that instead, send the command lines: unsubscribe h-costume-digest subscribe h-costume end in the body of a message to majordomo@lunch.engr.sgi.com. Thanks and enjoy the list!