From ???@??? Thu Aug 01 19:37:50 1996 Received: from PO7.ANDREW.CMU.EDU by mail.math.TU-Berlin.DE with SMTP id AA20374 (5.67b8/IDA-1.5 for ); Thu, 1 Aug 1996 19:32:32 +0200 Received: (from postman@localhost) by po7.andrew.cmu.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3) id NAA07562; Thu, 1 Aug 1996 13:04:34 -0400 Received: via switchmail for +dist+/afs/andrew.cmu.edu/usr7/grm/Miscell/h-costume-digest.dl@andrew.cmu.edu; Thu, 1 Aug 1996 13:04:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: from pcs26.andrew.cmu.edu via qmail ID ; Thu, 1 Aug 1996 13:03:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from pcs26.andrew.cmu.edu via qmail ID ; Thu, 1 Aug 1996 13:02:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mms.4.170.Jun.27.1996.16.34.50.sun4.41.MacMail.5.2.CUILIB.3.45.SNAP.NOT.LINKED.pcs26.andrew.cmu.edu.sun4m.412 via MS.5.6.pcs26.andrew.cmu.edu.sun4_41; Thu, 1 Aug 1996 13:02:35 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: Date: Thu, 1 Aug 1996 13:02:35 -0400 (EDT) From: Gretchen M Beck To: +dist+/afs/andrew.cmu.edu/usr7/grm/Miscell/h-costume-digest.dl@andrew.cmu.edu Subject: H-costume digest. Volume 4 Number 2 Reply-To: h-costume@andrew.cmu.edu H-costume Digest, Volume 4 Number 2 Today's Topics: Re: Costume Books The current charter Re: Costume Books Re: H-costume is back! Pattern Question stays in a museum collection RE: Pattern Question Re: H-costume is back! Piecing The wearing of caps Re: corsets RE: Pattern Question web pages Vienna Seccession Clothing? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 30 Jul 1996 09:52:41 -0700 To: Katy Bishop From: Frances Grimble Subject: Re: Costume Books Cc: h-costume@andrew.cmu.edu Katy, I bought a copy of _Silk_ on Saturday at the same time as I bought the other three books I mentioned. I haven't had time to look at it though. The ISBN for _Spitze_ is 3-89466-134-8. The ISBN for Kraatz's _Velours_ is 2-87660-170-2. The ISBN for _Le Velours_ is 2 841 46 056.8. Where do you buy foreign costume books? I bought these at More Moe's in Berkeley, CA. Drama Book Publishers has augmented their line with a series of 13 costume books translated from Italian. They say the books are in stock. I have not seen any of them, but am about to place an order. They will send you a free catalog and a separate brochure about this series. Their address is: Drama Publishers 260 Fifth Avenue New York, NY 10001 (212) 725-5377 dramapub@aol.com Fran Grimble At 08:50 AM 7/30/96 -0700, you wrote: > >Fran, > >Could you post ISBN #s for these books? Thanks. > >I just came across a new interesting book: "Silk", by Jacques Anquetil, >Published by Flammarion, 1996, ISBN #2-08013-616-X (Translated from the >original French edition). (Retail $60.00) > >Flammarion >Suite 1406 >Park Avenue South >New York, NY 10003 > >The book covers the origins of silk weaving, silk weaving in Europe, >Renaissance through 19th Century, with gorgeous photos of silk yardage >and costumes. > >Katy Bishop, Vintage Victorian >vintage@netcom.com Custom reproduction gowns of the Victorian Era. > >On Mon, 29 Jul 1996, Frances Grimble wrote: > >> I recently bought three foreign-language, highly illustrated costume books >> that English-only speakers might enjoy for the illustrations. >> >> _Spitze: Luxus Zwischen Tradition und Avantgarde_, in German with essays by >> a number of contributors, published by the Museum fur Kunst und >> Kulturgeschichte. This book focuses on lace and lace clothing from around >> the turn of the 20th century. Many of the lace designs are Art Nouveau >> and/or gorgeous. Most of the illustrations are black-and white photos, but >> there are a few color ones. At the end there are a few photos of radical >> modern lace clothing--dressess that look like lampshades and suchlike--that >> I don't much care for. But these are not a large part of the book. >> >> _Velours_, by Anne Kraatz, a French book published by Adam Biro. A big, >> totally four-color book with pictures of velvet textiles, clothing, and >> portraits showing them, mostly Renaissance through 19th century. >> >> _Le Velours_, edited by Claude Fauque and published in 1994 by Syros. A >> similar but smaller book, with a different selection of pictures, also French. >> >> Fran Grimble >> ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Jul 1996 13:43:53 -0400 (EDT) From: Gretchen M Beck To: Historical Costume Mailing List Subject: The current charter Cc: +dist+/afs/andrew.cmu.edu/usr7/grm/Miscell/h-costume-digest.dl@andrew.cmu.ed u Folks, Here's the current "charter". If you have questions about subscribing/unsubscribing please refer to this document: ---------------- Welcome to h-costume, the Historic Costume mailing list! If you ever want to remove yourself from this mailing list, send the email to "h-costume-request@andrew.cmu.edu". As the list is currently run "by hand," no special syntax is required. Here's the general information for the list you've subscribed to, in case you don't already have it: PLEASE KEEP THIS MESSAGE -- IT CONTAINS INFORMATION YOU WILL NEED IF YOU WANT TO LEAVE THE LIST! ABOUT THIS LIST: This list concentrates on re-creating period costume, from the Bronze age to the mid-20th Century. Its emphasis is on accurate historical reproduction of clothing, historical techniques for garment construction, as well as the application of those techniques in modern clothing design. Other topics appropriate for discussion include adapting historical clothing for the modern figure, clothing evolution, theatrical costumes, patterns, materials, books, and sources for supplies. Shows, museums, galleries and publications suitable for education or workshops, design and motivational issues, collective group projects, and exchanges of materials are all also of interest to this list. Wig making, accessory and makeup issues, where pertinent to the overall design of the costume, are also acceptable topics. Advertisements or announcements for historical costumed events are allowed, but general discussions regarding the groups or organizations that sponsor costumed events is discouraged. Those of you in groups that focus on costuming of a specific type (medieval re-creation, war reenactment, science fiction and fantasy, etc.) should refrain from using this list for group-specific socializing, promotion, or persona fabrication. For that type of conversation, please use your organization's own newsgroup or mailing list, which has been specifically set up to encourage those types of discussions. Example: SCA folks should use rec.org.sca for general converations about the SCA. Also inappropriate for this list are advertisements for vintage clothing, for sale or wanted; for those, use the vintage clothing mailing list (contact listserv@brownvm.brown.edu), rec.antiques.marketplace, rec.crafts.marketplace or alt.fashion. Personal chat, discussion of family life, and other such non-fiber topics should be kept to private e-mail, or to other mailing lists setup specifically to encourage it. Please respect all copyright laws when using this list. Practically speaking, that means you should post references or explain how to get instructions, rather than copying those instructions from some other publication or post (without permission of that author). It's this list's policy that individual articles submitted to this list are the property of the author of the post. Do not repost articles from this list in _any_ forum without the original author's consent. ADMINISTRATIVE INFO: Send submissions (things you want everyone on the list to read) to: h-costume@andrew.cmu.edu This list is run by hand, which means that everything EXCEPT submissions should go to: h-costume-request@andrew.cmu.edu If email to you starts bouncing, I'll probably drop you from this list and put you on a "bounces" list. Once you get your problem fixed, you'll have to resubscribe to h-costume. At some point in the near future (I hope) the archives will be back online. When that happens, a post will be made to the list describing how to retrieve them. For now, though no archives are available. There is both a direct mail and a digest verion of this list. If you have signed up for the direct mail version of this list and want to switch to digest format, just write to h-costume-request@andrew.cmu.edu, and ask to be moved to the digest list. Digests are also done by hand (unfortunatly), but will be sent out as soon as the messages total over 500 lines (usually a couple times a week). For help with problems encountered when using this list, send mail to the list owner, Gretchen Beck (formerly Gretchen Miller) via: h-costume-request@andrew.cmu.edu Thanks and enjoy the list! ------------------------------ From: RContreras@aol.com Date: Tue, 30 Jul 1996 15:57:30 -0400 To: lavolta@best.com, vintage@netcom.com cc: h-costume@andrew.cmu.edu Subject: Re: Costume Books Reading about bookshops in Berkeley reminds me of a wonderful book I bought at Shakespeare's in Berkeley when I was on the BoD mmfph years ago. It was a scholarly biography of William the Marshal, and I very foolishly loaned it to a girl with no memory and thereby lost it. I haven't been able to find it since. It was not The Flower of Chivalry, and was quite detailed. Ring a bell with anyone? Rondallynn ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Jul 1996 14:57:58 -0600 (CST) Date-warning: Date header was inserted by ttacs.ttu.edu From: "Joan St.Germain" Subject: Re: H-costume is back! To: h-costume@andrew.cmu.edu At 06:59 PM 7/29/96 -0400, you wrote: >After a loooonng hiatus, h-costume is back! Blessings on those who made its return possible! I don't know about any one else, but I've been suffering from withdrawl! Joan ------------------------------ From: medieval@muskoka.com To: h-costume@andrew.cmu.edu Date: Tue, 30 Jul 1996 16:34:29 +0000 Subject: Pattern Question Greetings All! I am having a problem with a pattern I enlarged from a book. At the bottom of the dress, the pattern extends beyond my material width so I get an overlap of pattern versus material...ie. the corners of the dress are "cut off". Are there any suggestions as to what I could do to the pattern to make it fit onto the width of my material without compromising the shape of the bottom of the dress, which is very full and makes an oval hemline because it also has a train. I don't mind cutting down the width of the dress, I just want it to have the same basic shape. Also, I don't want to add any seams onto the bodice as there aren't any now and it looks good without them. The only seams on the dress are up the sides and at the shoulders. The bodice is free, front and back of any seams as well there is no attached skirt; just one big flowing piece for front and back. Any help would be much appreciated!! Regards, Krista Fraser medieval@muskoka.com ------------------------------ From: "Carol Kocian" To: h-costume@andrew.cmu.edu Date: Tue, 30 Jul 1996 17:00:33 -500 Subject: stays in a museum collection Hi List, glad to be back! I was at a museum last week and was able to examine and otherwise fondle some items in their collection. As usual, I concentrated on 18th Century stays. I noticed a few things that I wanted to share with all of you. I looked at about five sets of stays, from 2nd quarter/mid century through very early 19thC (1805). All were strapless. Most laced in the back, except for one set that laced both front and back. One set was in poor enough condition that I could see what they used for boning. It was wood splints, similar to the thicker wood someone might use for weaving a basket (not the thin & flexible basket wood). It was a dark colored wood; I don't know if it was the natural color, or if it was stained/painted, or if it was soiled. (I don't know my woods that well!) I was surprised at the coarseness of construction and the coarseness of the outer layer of fabric. Most stays had a natural color linen outer layer (the original color could have faded). One set was blue linen, and one set was yellow linen. Two sets appeared to have been altered for size. On one set, a seam on both sides (what would have been the side seam) contained an insert about 1" wide. The insert was plain linen fabric with no boning in it. It was a different color than the rest of the stays. On another set, a seam appeared to have been unpicked & the pieces resewn with an overlap. The overlap was about 3/8" at the top, and not overlapped (still butted) at the bottom. The "altered" seam was located at the side front, about at the point that differentiates the neckline and the armpit. Speaking of that point, on one set of stays that area seemed to be rubbed & worn a bit. I would guess the wearer had a problem with the point digging into the front of her armpit when she reached forward, the same thing reenactors complain about today. Construction methods for most of the sets of stays appeared to be this: Each piece made up of two layers, boning channels stitched (with a backstitch) and the vertical seams' seam allowances turned under. (Vertical seam allowances were not visible.) The pieces then appeared to have been joined together by whipstitching the vertical seams. This makes sense to me from a fitting point of view. I make stays by sewing all the vertical seams first, then putting together the inside and outside layers, sewing the channels, then inserting the boning. I would never be sure that the fit was right (non-chafing, correct strap placement, etc.) until the stays were finished. By sewing the vertical seams last, I think I could have a better idea of the fit and an easier time adjusting it. The original stays had the vertical seams sewn with very thick linen thread, about two or three times the thickness of buttonhole twist. Lacing holes (eyelets) on all the stays were offset, allowing for one lace to be used. The eyelets were about 3/16" in diameter. This means some threads would have to be snipped when making the eyelets, as opposed to just using an awl to stretch the threads. The eyelets were stitched with thread about the weight of 20thC sewing thread. Both the top and bottom edges of the stays were bound with leather. (except on the 1805 set, which used a fabric binding) The leather showed about 1/8" on the front side, and more (1/4 to 1/2") on the back. One set of stays (the front-and-back lacing set) did not have tabs, but it did extend below the waist. If anyone wants any more details or clarification, please ask! I plan to go back and double check any details I may have missed. I was allowed into the collection because a friend is a curator there, and I don't know what their policy would be for other people. -Carol Kocian ckocian@epe.org ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Jul 1996 16:58:53 -0500 (CDT) From: Deb To: sunfire@muskoka.com, h-costume@ANDREW.CMU.EDU CC: BADDORF@warner.fnal.gov Subject: RE: Pattern Question >At the bottom of the dress, the pattern extends beyond my material >width so I get an overlap of pattern versus material...ie. the >corners of the dress are "cut off". 1775 people (Am. Rev War) seem to have felt no compunctions about piecing in a triangle (or quarter circle, or whatever) of fabric, down at the place where the corners are "cut off". This would add no extra seams to your bodice, but would add seams at the hemline. Pie wedge additions. RevWar garments have this sort of thing all the time. I should think that might be true for previous periods too ... Just because they might not be visible in a _painting_ doesn't mean the real garment didn't have seams there. <=========================================================> < Deb Baddorf baddorf@fnal.gov Costumer, RevWar re-enactor ------------------------------ From: Booboopies@aol.com Date: Tue, 30 Jul 1996 18:11:56 -0400 To: h-costume@andrew.cmu.edu Subject: Re: H-costume is back! This is absolutely wonderful news. The list has been missed! Karen ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Jul 1996 16:21:33 -0700 To: h-costume@andrew.cmu.edu From: Frances Grimble Subject: Piecing For that matter, people regarded piecing as matter-of-fact--not a garment flaw--into the Edwardian period. Victorian and Edwardian skirts often have bottom piecing, and it's not uncommon on other garments. They did their best to match the fabric pattern precisely, unless they were really short on fabric. Fran ------------------------------ To: h-costume+@andrew.cmu.edu From: iteach@slip.net (Elizabeth Pruyn) Subject: The wearing of caps Date: Tue, 30 Jul 1996 16:25:00 -0700 Hi all, I was really glad to see the list back in action, especially as I have been tossing around a question. So to help get the ball rolling... In the Regency, when would a woman begin to put on caps and does anyone have any descriptions of the caps? At marriage? A certain age? At motherhood? The only references I have are later or from works of fiction. Thanks for your help. Elizabeth Elizabeth Pruyn iteach@slip.net Oakland, CA "If I had been around when Rubens was painting, I would have been revered as a fabulous model. Kate Moss? Well, she would have been the paint brush..." - Dawn French ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Jul 1996 19:46:50 -0400 (EDT) From: aleed To: STACEY.DUNLEAVY@EY.COM cc: "h-costume(a)andrew.cmu.edu" Subject: Re: corsets The first material evidence of corsets as we know them appears in the mid 1500s, although looking at portraits and other iconographical evidence would suggest that they were around from the beginning of the 16th century. (that's the only way such a flat, conical sillouhette could have been attained.) in the latter half of the 15th century, when waistlines were high and V-necked gowns in fashion, many women would stiffen the belt they wore beneath the bust to keep it from wrinkling, using glue-stiffened canvas inside the outer and inner layers. I've seen a couple of portraits--one of Mary of Burgundy, and another of a woman I can't recall at the moment--which were painted around the 1470s, and show them wearing "belts" that were quite wide--@8 and 12 inches, respectively--and stiff as a board. I, personally, think that this is where the corset originated; though that's just an opinion. Regarding Minoans, they didn't use actual corsets, but would put iron rings around the middles of their children and leave them there as they grew, resulting in very small waists indeed. Drea On Tue, 30 Jul 1996 STACEY.DUNLEAVY@EY.COM wrote: > > Hi, > > I'm new to this list, so I hope I haven't missed any threads. I've > checked a few sources regarding corsets, and they're conflicting. Does > anyone know when they were first used in Europe. I'm working on a > Medieval ensemble, but I need to know what kind of underpinnings were > used besides the chemise. One source was wonderful as far as pictures > and descriptions of the overdresses, embroidery, patterns, menswear, > etc. but nothing about undergarments. A source over the web conflicted > itself, saying that corsets didn't show up until the 15th century, and > then one of its links said that they were used as far back as 1000 B.C.E > by the Minoans. Any info here? > > STACEY.DUNLEAVY@EY.COM > ------------------------------- We've secretly replaced their dilithium crystals with new folgers crystals. Now let's watch them go to warp. ------------------------------- ------------------------------ From: RContreras@aol.com Date: Tue, 30 Jul 1996 20:21:09 -0400 To: sunfire@muskoka.com, h-costume@andrew.cmu.edu Subject: Re: Pattern Question This happens frequently with period patterns. We just aren't accustomed to the sheer volume of fabric it often takes. To answer your question from my own experience, anything you do to narrow the bottom line is going to affect the line of the dress. Bite the bullet and make your material wider where it is needed by sewing extra fabric width there. Match textures and patterns, if necessary, and by all means sew the fabric on with the grain going in the same direction as the fabric in the body of the skirt. You'll be happier with the outcome than if you took shortcuts. Rondallynn of Golgotha ------------------------------ From: ches@io.com Date: Tue, 30 Jul 96 19:38:05 PDT Subject: web pages To: h-costume@andrew.cmu.edu ..o0*0o.. Could everyone please repost your costuming webpages' addresses and what costuming information it may have? I checked several of the links I have and some are gone or changed or something. I would like to update and add them to my page. Thanks! Ciao @}\ Ches @}----`--,-- http://www.io.com/~ches @}/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Jul 1996 17:46:57 -0700 From: To: h-costume@andrew.cmu.edu Subject: Vienna Seccession Clothing? Cc: kondoa@ucs.orst.edu I'm currently trying to research the Dress Reform Movement in Vienna in the early 20th Century, which was somewhat connected with the Secession Arts Movement. I've found sources & photos showing Gustave Klimt & Emilie Floge wearing reform garments she probably made & had heard that other dresses were made by Koloman Moser for his wife, & some were made to match the decoration of the "Stoclet Palace" in Belgium. Does anyone know if any of these garments might still be in existance in a museum somewhere or been included in exhibit catalogues, etc? I'd gratefully welcome any help with this subject. Alison (Who's very glad H-costume is back!). ------------------------------ End of h-costume Digest Volume 4 Issue 2 ************************************ From ???@??? Thu Aug 01 20:23:09 1996 Received: from PO2.ANDREW.CMU.EDU by mail.math.TU-Berlin.DE with SMTP id AA20522 (5.67b8/IDA-1.5 for ); Thu, 1 Aug 1996 20:09:50 +0200 Received: (from postman@localhost) by po2.andrew.cmu.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3) id OAA18233; Thu, 1 Aug 1996 14:02:26 -0400 Received: via switchmail for +dist+/afs/andrew.cmu.edu/usr7/grm/Miscell/h-costume-digest.dl@andrew.cmu.edu; Thu, 1 Aug 1996 14:02:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: from pcs26.andrew.cmu.edu via qmail ID ; Thu, 1 Aug 1996 14:00:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: from pcs26.andrew.cmu.edu via qmail ID ; Thu, 1 Aug 1996 14:00:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mms.4.170.Jun.27.1996.16.34.50.sun4.41.MacMail.5.2.CUILIB.3.45.SNAP.NOT.LINKED.pcs26.andrew.cmu.edu.sun4m.412 via MS.5.6.pcs26.andrew.cmu.edu.sun4_41; Thu, 1 Aug 1996 14:00:35 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: Date: Thu, 1 Aug 1996 14:00:35 -0400 (EDT) From: Gretchen M Beck To: +dist+/afs/andrew.cmu.edu/usr7/grm/Miscell/h-costume-digest.dl@andrew.cmu.edu Subject: H-costume digest. Volume 4 Number 3 Reply-To: h-costume@andrew.cmu.edu H-costume Digest, Volume 4 Number 3 Today's Topics: Re: Questions: Details of gents' costume Re: Foreign books... Re: web pages Foreign Museum Catalogs, etc. Web page Re: Costume Books 18th century piecing period blues... breeches Re: colored wedding gowns Coloured Wedding Dresses books Corsets Re: stays in a museum collection Italian costuming Re: Books Re: colored wedding gowns Re: web pages Russian folk shirts... Re: Costume Books Re: Russian folk shirts... ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 30 Jul 1996 18:29:43 -0800 From: "R.L. Shep" To: dickie@bozzie.demon.co.uk CC: h-costume@andrew.cmu.edu Subject: Re: Questions: Details of gents' costume Paul C. Dickie wrote: > > Greetings! > > Now that the list is back (hurray!) I might be able to find the answers to som e > points that have recently been vexing me. I've been wondering when certain > details of gents' clothing were introduced: > > 1) "French" or "turn-back" cuffs on shirt sleeves > > 2) Interfacing down the front placket, again on gents' shirts > > 3) Striped silesia, as sleeve lining for coats and as waistband lining and > "curtains" in trousers. (The "curtains" were a sort of partial lining > across the back, extending some 6 inches down the back seam to about 3 > inches at the side seam) > > < Paul > re: cuffs. Cunnington & Beard in A DICTIONARY OF ENGLISH COSTUME 900-1900 says it was first a cuff on a man's Great Cost (19th c.) but in 1850 on it was also used on men's shirts. ~!~ R.L. Shep ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Jul 1996 18:31:09 -0800 From: "R.L. Shep" To: Catherine.Keegan@ncal.kaiperm.org CC: h-costume@andrew.cmu.edu Subject: Re: Foreign books... Catherine.Keegan@ncal.kaiperm.org wrote: > > How lovely to see this again! Thanks, Gretchen, for taking this on. > > Recently, on another of my mailing lists, someone posted information on what > sounds like a wonderful museum publication. Unfortunately, it comes from a > museum in Madrid. Does anyone know of any importer that deals with these > kinds of books? > > Here, in the San Francisco bay area, we can generally get catalogs from the UK > and some times from France (thank you Moe's Books!); however, books from the > rest of the world are a rare find. > > BTW, does anyone know of a US contact for Parks Canada? I've read some > reviews on their patterns and phamplets that have me curious. 'Muzzleloader' > recently reviewed a work they put out on men's 18th century coats that I would > love to see. > > Looking forward to more h-costume! What a great surprise to find it back in > my email again! > > Catherine Keegan > syscxk@ncal.kaiperm.org try fsbks (email address) ~!~ R.L. Shep ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Jul 1996 18:36:21 -0800 From: "R.L. Shep" To: ches@io.com CC: h-costume@andrew.cmu.edu Subject: Re: web pages ches@io.com wrote: > > ..o0*0o.. > > Could everyone please repost your costuming webpages' addresses and what > costuming information it may have? > > I checked several of the links I have and some are gone or changed or > something. I would like to update and add them to my page. > > Thanks! > > Ciao @}\ > Ches @}----`--,-- http://www.io.com/~ches > @}/ RAGS Web Site has over 25 links to costume and textile exhibits and information all around the world. This is now constantly being updated (since I learned how to update my own site). http://www.mcn.org/R/RAGS ~!~ R.L. Shep ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Jul 1996 18:45:40 -0800 From: "R.L. Shep" To: h-costume Subject: Foreign Museum Catalogs, etc. Oh, Stupid Me! (bad, bad, bad) In our system when you email someone within the same system you don't need the whole address..... so I gave all of you a partial address. It is: fsbks@mcn.org ask for their catalog, it has foreign museum catalogs, out of print books, etc., and is called: "Books on Cloth" (sorry about that) ~!~ R.L. Shep ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Jul 1996 22:30:54 -0400 (EDT) To: h-costume@andrew.cmu.edu From: "Penny E. Ladnier" Subject: Web page My web page is called Historic Costume Research. It has links to pages on the web that allows the viewer to visualize costume through different time periods. If you have a web page that might fit the bill email me personally. http://www.geocities.com/BourbonStreet/2157 Also for anyone wanting a free web page go to: http://www.geocities.com Penny E. Ladnier, Virginia Commonwealth University s0peladn@erols.com Http://www.geocities.com/BourbonStreet/2157 Pennies from Heaven, where it's always reigning money,or at least my kids think so. $ $ $ $ $ $ $ $ $ $ $ $ $ $ $ $ $ $ $ $ $ $ $ $ $ $ $ $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Jul 1996 19:45:18 -0700 (PDT) From: Heather Rose Jones To: h-costume@andrew.cmu.edu Subject: Re: Costume Books Is Jennifer Bray out there still? If you all cast your minds way back to the beginning of the year, I was making arrangements with her to publish the "Vanaheim Viking Guide to Gear Making" (which a number of people on this list expressed an interest in). Well, I've got the thing published now, but I've lost Jennifer's e-mail address and need to contact her about her cut. Heather Rose Jones hrjones@uclink.berkeley.edu ------------------------------ From: BPH3213@ACS.TAMU.EDU Date: Tue, 30 Jul 1996 22:51:12 -0500 (CDT) To: h-costume@andrew.cmu.EDU Subject: 18th century piecing As the subject has come up, I thought I'd share this with the list, from an advertisement for a runaway salve (1768, Virginia): "had on a purple or bluish jacket and breeches (the jacket being too narrow, a piece of blue cloth put in to widen it at the neck and shoulders) osnaburg shirt, and took his blanket" Nice to see the list back. Bryan Howard bph3213@acs.tamu.edu P.S. He was a runaway *slave* not salve, but my editor has no backup... :-) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 31 Jul 1996 15:40:21 +1000 (EST) To: h-costume@andrew.cmu.edu From: mdevogel@postoffice.utas.edu.au (Miesje de Vogel) Subject: period blues... Just a little something I found to add to the debate on blue in tudor/renaissance times... In late SCA period (Henrician, 1533) there is for example a sumptuary law which restricts the wearing of purple silk to members of the royal family, and of scarlet and blue silk and velvet to those with the rank of knight of the garter and above, and to the children of those peers above the rank of Earl (R. Ashton, 1984). So maybe although we have a hard time tracking it down outside France, it was a fashionable colour, giiven that sumptuary laws were so hard to enforce, or maybe it was just that ny a particular shade of blue was fashionable... miesje. thinking of the most beautiful blue late Tudor dress belonging to meliora... mdevogel@postoffice.sandybay.utas.edu.au ------------------------------ From: TheaG@aol.com Date: Wed, 31 Jul 1996 01:55:57 -0400 To: h-costume@andrew.cmu.edu Subject: breeches Welcome back, everyone. I have a "what's-it-called" type of question. Late in the sixteenth century in Europe, a style of breeches called "venetians" was popular. These were full at the hips, pleated onto a waistband, and tapered until narrow at the knee. There is a variation that doesn't taper but continues full to the knee and is gathered/pleated onto bands just below the knee. Modernly I would call these "knickers". Does anyone know of a special name for these? Thea Goldsby ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 31 Jul 1996 10:09:54 +0100 (BST) From: Dorothy Stein Subject: Re: colored wedding gowns To: "The Arctic trails have their secret tales that would make your blood run co ld." Cc: h-costume@andrew.cmu.edu A tradition that identifies women by their reproductive status is as disgusting as one that identifies them by their sexual status (white wedding gowns for vigin brides or blue for loyalty, i.e., sexual fidelity, when applied to women). Especially one that differentiates between the sex of the children (somehow holding women responsible for that). But non-virgins aren't supposed to wear 'wedding gowns' at all, just dresses. This sounds like a very recent 'tradition' that should be nipped in the bud. > I have heard two different traditions for colored wedding gowns. > One, is for brides that already have children. Pale blue for mothers > of boys, plae pink for mothers of girls. > > The other is jsut for blue gowns. Blue supposedly represents loyalty, > which is the most desired trait in a bride, and so wedding gowns > were often blue. ------------------------------ From: "Donlan, Vincent" To: costume list Subject: Coloured Wedding Dresses Date: Wed, 31 Jul 96 11:03:00 0BS I have my grandmother's and my great grandmothers wedding dresses. Both are blue but my grandmother tells me that it was purely by choice that blue was chosen. It was felt that white would be extravagant as the dress would need dying to be worn again and a coloured dress was more practical. My grandmother was married in the early 1930's in Northamptonshire, England. My great grandmother at around the turn of the century in the same area. We know of no conventions as regards colour other than that white was made fashionable by Queen Victoria and thence came to denote purity, to be worn only by virgins! I hope I'm not teaching my grandmother to suck eggs! Sally Ann ------------------------------ From: "Donlan, Vincent" To: costume list Subject: Books Date: Wed, 31 Jul 96 11:06:00 0BS I'm new to the list so perhaps you all already know this? I recently found a new book published by the National Trust, (in England). It's called 'The Art of Dress - Clothes and Society 1500 - 1914' and is by Jane Ashelford. It is beautifully wrtitten and illustrated with photographs of clothes held in trust by the National Trust and not normally available to the public, including views of the methods of construction, linings etc. The book is newly published this year. ------------------------------ From: "Donlan, Vincent" To: costume list Subject: Corsets Date: Wed, 31 Jul 96 11:11:00 0BS As far as I'm aware, Janet Arnold now believes the earliest remaining corset in England is from Queen Elizabeth's effigy in Westminster Abbey and is now agreed to be original, not replaced in the 18th century as originally thought. Yes, is appears that corsets were worn from the beginning of the 16th century as the styles of the period could not exist without them but I cannot find any evidence of them any earlier in England at least. Sally Ann ------------------------------ From: Ngelina@aol.com Date: Wed, 31 Jul 1996 08:42:27 -0400 To: CKOCIAN@epe.org, h-costume@andrew.cmu.edu Subject: Re: stays in a museum collection > If anyone wants any more details or clarification, please ask! I >plan to go back and double check any details I may have missed. I was >allowed into the collection because a friend is a curator there, and >I don't know what their policy would be for other people. Thanks for the report! I do have a question--where were the stays from, America or Europe? Thanks again, Karen/Angelina ------------------------------ date: Wed, 31 Jul 96 8:31 From: joe@imr.usa.com (Joe Cook) to: "mail@ih {h-costume@andrew.cmu.edu}" Subject: Italian costuming Hi there! A while back, I read a posting about an Italian Renaissance costuming conference over in the UK. Does anyone know if any of the materials were published and/or commercially available? Joe Cook ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 31 Jul 1996 06:20:26 -0700 (PDT) From: Katy Bishop Subject: Re: Books To: "Donlan, Vincent" cc: costume list On Wed, 31 Jul 1996, Donlan, Vincent wrote: > > I'm new to the list so perhaps you all already know this? I recently found a > new book published by the National Trust, (in England). It's called 'The > Art of Dress - Clothes and Society 1500 - 1914' and is by Jane Ashelford. > It is beautifully wrtitten and illustrated with photographs of clothes held > in trust by the National Trust and not normally available to the public, > including views of the methods of construction, linings etc. The book is > newly published this year. Could you give the publisher and ISBN #? Thanks. Katy Bishop, Vintage Victorian vintage@netcom.com Custom reproduction gowns of the Victorian Era. ------------------------------ From: "Cindy Abel" To: h-costume@andrew.cmu.edu Date: Wed, 31 Jul 1996 08:26:26 CDT Subject: Re: colored wedding gowns There is an old English rhyme for brides, part of which goes: "Married in blue, love ever true" (Does this mean the bride will be true, or hoping the groom will?) "Married in white, you've choosen right" "Married in pink, of you, he'll aye think" "Married in yellow, ashammed of your fellow" "Married in red, wish yourself dead" Cindy Abel Health Sciences Library Creighton University 2500 California Plaza Omaha NE 68178-0400 Phone: 402-280-5144 Technology is wonderful only when it works correctly ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 31 Jul 1996 09:34:52 -0400 (EDT) From: Gale Storm Latzko To: Historic Costume Subject: Re: web pages On Tue, 30 Jul 1996 ches@io.com wrote: > Could everyone please repost your costuming webpages' addresses and what > costuming information it may have? I have a page at http://vger.rutgers.edu/~tempest/costume.htm with lots of links to pages with Medieval and Renaissance costume information, suppliers, and other things. I'm working on original information detailing my last-minute sprint to create a wardrobe for a week at Pennsic (an SCA camping event in August). Gale * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * tempest@netaxs.com http://vger.rutgers.edu/~tempest/ "A girl needs a knife." -- The Flash Girls O- ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 31 Jul 1996 10:30:04 -0400 (EDT) From: Philip E Cutone To: Historical Costume Mailing List Subject: Russian folk shirts... Hi all.. Making a few Folkware russian/ukranian shirts and messed up (cut the slit for the off centered neck flap on the wrong side) Anyone know if historically they were restricted to either side (for culture reasons or some such) At this point (Leaving for Pennsic friday) i'm just going to do it on that side, but i was curious... Thanks! Flip ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 31 Jul 1996 9:40:12 -0500 (CDT) From: "SHERYL J. NANCE" To: RContreras@aol.com CC: h-costume@andrew.cmu.edu Subject: Re: Costume Books >Reading about bookshops in Berkeley reminds me of a wonderful book I bought >at Shakespeare's in Berkeley when I was on the BoD mmfph years ago. It was a >scholarly biography of William the Marshal, and I very foolishly loaned it to >a girl with no memory and thereby lost it. I haven't been able to find it >since. It was not The Flower of Chivalry, and was quite detailed. Ring a >bell with anyone? Maybe _William Marshal, Knight-Errant, Baron, and Regent of England_ by Sidney Painter Originally published in 1933, reprinted in 1967 by Johns Hopkins Press. (305 pages) If that's not it, let me know & I'll find a few more titles for you to try. Anything else you remember about the book would be helpful. HTH! Sheryl J. Nance ...one of the secret masters of Kansas City MO Public Library the world: a librarian. They p_sheryl@kcpl.lib.mo.us control information. Don't ever p**s one off. - Spider Robinson, _The Callahan Touch_ (Opinions expressed in this message do not reflect the viewpoint of the Kansas City MO Public Library.) ------------------------------ To: Philip E Cutone Cc: Historical Costume Mailing List Subject: Re: Russian folk shirts... Date: Wed, 31 Jul 1996 11:20:07 -0400 From: Elizabeth Lear >Making a few Folkware russian/ukranian shirts and messed up (cut the >slit for the off centered neck flap on the wrong side) Anyone know if >historically they were restricted to either side (for culture reasons >or some such) At this point (Leaving for Pennsic friday) i'm just >going to do it on that side, but i was curious... I always make the slit down the middle of the body and attach the flap to that, which pushes it off to the side as shown in pictures. The collar edges overlap in the center. Can you reverse the body to turn it around, or are you too far along? I always do the collar and flap before the sleeves just in case. As someone with a Russian persona who makes a lot of Russian clothes, I would look at your shirt with the flap to the left (as facing the shirt) and think it looked backwards. I've never seen pictures of it to the left, only to the right (again, from POV of onlooker) for a Cossack shirt or down the center for a Ukranian shirt. Doesn't mean they didn't, though ... -Yelizaveta ------------------------------ End of h-costume Digest Volume 4 Issue 2 ************************************ From ???@??? Fri Aug 02 00:34:43 1996 Received: from PO2.ANDREW.CMU.EDU by mail.math.TU-Berlin.DE with SMTP id AA21216 (5.67b8/IDA-1.5 for ); Fri, 2 Aug 1996 00:29:41 +0200 Received: (from postman@localhost) by po2.andrew.cmu.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3) id SAA01057; Thu, 1 Aug 1996 18:22:45 -0400 Received: via switchmail for +dist+/afs/andrew.cmu.edu/usr7/grm/Miscell/h-costume-digest.dl@andrew.cmu.edu; Thu, 1 Aug 1996 18:22:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: from pcs39.andrew.cmu.edu via qmail ID ; Thu, 1 Aug 1996 18:20:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: from pcs39.andrew.cmu.edu via qmail ID ; Thu, 1 Aug 1996 18:20:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mms.4.170.Jun.27.1996.16.34.50.sun4.41.MacMail.5.2.CUILIB.3.45.SNAP.NOT.LINKED.pcs39.andrew.cmu.edu.sun4m.412 via MS.5.6.pcs39.andrew.cmu.edu.sun4_41; Thu, 1 Aug 1996 18:20:45 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <8m0Gqxe00iWYE9_yQc@andrew.cmu.edu> Date: Thu, 1 Aug 1996 18:20:45 -0400 (EDT) From: Gretchen M Beck To: +dist+/afs/andrew.cmu.edu/usr7/grm/Miscell/h-costume-digest.dl@andrew.cmu.edu Subject: H-costume digest. Volume 4 Number 4 Reply-To: h-costume@andrew.cmu.edu H-costume Digest, Volume 4 Number 4 Today's Topics: regency costumes Re: colored wedding gowns Re: Books Foreign Books... civil war costume Civil War Costume journey Re: web pages Recreating a 1775-85 Patterns of Fashion 1 Gown re:Wearing of Caps pastel wedding dresses Colours Re: regency costumes ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 31 Jul 1996 08:50:45 -0800 From: "Karen Lovejoy" Subject: regency costumes To: "H-Costume" I'm going to an event for the Jane Austin society here. I have losts of Elizabethan, 18th cent, and Victorian stuff but I haven't got much info on Regency costuming, can any one recommend some good books. thanks ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 31 Jul 1996 11:49:42 -0500 (CDT) To: h-costume@andrew.cmu.edu From: Nancee Beattie Subject: Re: colored wedding gowns At 08:26 AM 7/31/96 CDT, you wrote: >There is an old English rhyme for brides, part of which goes: > >"Married in blue, love ever true" (Does this mean the bride will be >true, or hoping the groom will?) >"Married in white, you've choosen right" >"Married in pink, of you, he'll aye think" >"Married in yellow, ashammed of your fellow" >"Married in red, wish yourself dead" >Cindy Abel Married in black, you'll wish yourself back. Nancee "It's a terrible thing when one's sad truths and apocalyptic memories are torn apart by the likes of Meredydd" ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 31 Jul 1996 11:59:00 -0500 (CDT) From: "SHERYL J. NANCE" To: vintage@netcom.com CC: h-costume@andrew.cmu.edu Subject: Re: Books >> I'm new to the list so perhaps you all already know this? I recently found a >> new book published by the National Trust, (in England). It's called 'The >> Art of Dress - Clothes and Society 1500 - 1914' and is by Jane Ashelford. >> It is beautifully wrtitten and illustrated with photographs of clothes held >> in trust by the National Trust and not normally available to the public, >> including views of the methods of construction, linings etc. The book is >> newly published this year. > >Could you give the publisher and ISBN #? Thanks. ISBN: 0810963175 Publisher: Harry N. Abrams Incorporated Price: $49.50 HTH! Sheryl J. Nance-Durst ...one of the secret masters of Kansas City MO Public Library the world: a librarian. They p_sheryl@kcpl.lib.mo.us control information. Don't ever p**s one off. - Spider Robinson, _The Callahan Touch_ (Opinions expressed in this message do not reflect the viewpoint of the Kansas City MO Public Library.) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 31 Jul 1996 10:40:07 -0800 To: h-costume@andrew.cmu.edu From: fsbks@mcn.org (Fred Struthers) Subject: Foreign Books... >Recently, on another of my mailing lists, someone posted information on what >sounds like a wonderful museum publication. Unfortunately, it comes from a >museum in Madrid. Does anyone know of any importer that deals with these >kinds of books? >Catherine Keegan >syscxk@ncal.kaiperm.org We import books and catalogs from many countries. If you would like a catalog, email or send us your address. A purchase puts you on the mailing list. We are preparing our new catalog for Sept. mailing. Fred Struthers BOOKS ON CLOTH R L Shep Publications P O Box 2706, Ft. Bragg, CA 95437 email: fsbks@mcn.org ------------------------------ From: PBearish@aol.com Date: Wed, 31 Jul 1996 14:04:32 -0400 To: h-costume@andrew.cmu.edu Subject: civil war costume My sister and I are just getting involved in civil war reenactments, and would love any information you have on costumes and upcoming events. I reside in Mich., and my sister in Ohio, so we are primarily interested in events near us. Much appreciated! PBearish@aol.com ------------------------------ From: djones@ccvhs.vhsla.com Date: Wed, 31 Jul 96 12:31:35 PST To: h-costume@andrew.cmu.edu Subject: Civil War Costume [Bless you Gretchen!! h-costume is back in my life - yippee!!!] >>My sister and I are just getting involved in civil war reenactments,>> You and your sister should see if there is a "Living History" Forum on AOL. There is one on CompuServe and it provides a wealth of information on and for reenactors and recreators of all periods. You'll find listings of events across the U.S. and around the world. Good luck, D. --- D- just-to-the-right-of-Attila-the-Hun -Jones --- djones@vhsla.com or djones1@juno.com or 71171.3333@compuserve.com ------------------------------ From: LSCHWARZKO@aol.com Date: Wed, 31 Jul 1996 18:50:17 -0400 To: h-costume@andrew.cmu.edu Subject: journey I will be visiting Cologne, Germany and London next week. As I will have some free time, I would like to wander around. Off particular interest are stores and museums which would show clothing for children or that could provide inspiration. Please let me know if anyone has some suggestions. Thanx! ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 19:04:48 -0500 To: h-costume@andrew.cmu.edu From: milieux@digital.net (Lauren Podolak) Subject: Re: web pages >Could everyone please repost your costuming webpages' addresses and what >costuming information it may have? > The Costume Site http://ddi.digital.net/~milieux/costume.html The Costume Source http://ddi.digital.net/~milieux/supplies/websupplies.html _____ .__.__ .__ / \ |__| | |__| ____ __ _____ ___ / \ / \| | | | |/ __ \| | \ \/ / / Y \ | |_| \ ___/| | /> < \____|____/__|____/__|\____> ____//__/\__\ Science Fiction, Fantasy & Historical Fashions milieux@digital.net http://ddi.digital.net/~milieux THE COSTUME SITE http://ddi.digital.net/~milieux/costume.html ------------------------------ From: Carodec@aol.com Date: Wed, 31 Jul 1996 19:14:30 -0400 To: h-costume@andrew.cmu.edu Subject: Recreating a 1775-85 Patterns of Fashion 1 Gown Oh, joy! H-costume is back! And just in time to help me. ;) I've been hoping to re-create (adjusted for my size) a gown from Janet Arnold's Patterns of Fashion 1, from 1775-1785, "An open gown and matching petticoat in terracotta and blue shot silk taffeta giving the effect of purple." For those with the large paperback edition, this is on page 40. My problems all originate with fabric. (Don't laugh.) I've found affordable changeable silk taffetas from Thai Silk (anyone have any other likely sources?), but they only barely approximate the original. Problem 1: Color. The closest approximation is blue and fuschia-ish, which gives purple, but not the same purple. Meanwhile, I have formed an irrational attachment for a rose pink and yellow shot silk. Pink I can document. Also yellow in this shade. Also changeable silk. But not all three at once. Changeable silks seem to be seldom painted, and references are often strikingly shy about mentioning colors. Can anyone offer guidance about shades of changeable silk available for clothing in 1775? I want to stay with a shot silk since the gown and decoration are clearly designed for it. The entire outfit is made of one fabric, and the glory of the design will show to best effect in changeable silk. Problem 2: Hand. This taffeta is just not as crisp as its 18th century counterpart. The gown is almost exclusively decorated with pinked self-fabric, cut on the grain. The Thai silk ravels mercilessly. I could get around this either by hemming the decorative strips, and doing without the pinked edges, or by cutting the strips on the bias, which would alter the coloring of the decoration. Any ideas on this? Fray check is inconceivable; it will discolor the fabric badly, and, I suspect, make the gown more flammable. Is there an 18th century style fix for this problem? I could get around both problems by doing without the changeable silk (or by giving up entirely), but I would rather not. Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated. 15 yards of silk? Weeks of hand-sewing? I'd like to get this right. Thanks very much. It's great to see you all again! ---Caroline in Pennsylvania Carodec@aol.com or enilorac@voicenet.com ------------------------------ From: DGC3%Rates%FAR@go50.comp.pge.com Date: Wed, 31 Jul 96 18:15:49 PDT To: Subject: re:Wearing of Caps I too am delighted to have the list back again -- thank you, Gretchen! Wearing of caps is a delightful period touch often ignored by modern reinactors. Offhand, I think all women (i.e., no longer girls) wore caps in 16-18th C., except brides, queens being crowned, etc. The Regency convention of "going into caps" when one was heading toward old-maid status may owe a lot to Georgette Heyer. Jane Austen writes (when of spinster age), "I have made myself some caps to wear of an evening, and they save me a world of torment as to head-dressing." Certainly much is made of Regency brides taking precedence, and going into caps would be a sign of matronly dignity. Jane Austen's novels do indicate that different dress and behavior was expected in girls who were Out and Not Yet Out. The caps would be a similar sign for gentlemen to avoid pursuit of a lovely young bride. (Caps--dainty white muslin creations-- are not to be confused with those delightfully silly evening hats worn by Regency fashion plates.) Later sources show Victorian caps for young matrons, widows, invalids. Caps die out around 1860 except for the elderly, and I think Joan Severa notes they are rather scare by 1850 in _Dressed for the Photographer_. Being of a certain age myself, I am also interested in sources for patterns. Anything other that the wonderful "Workwomen's Guide" of 1836? Having made myself a few caps, I quite agree with Miss Austen. Danine ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Danine Cozzens Internet: dgc3@pge.com Phone: 415/973-1388 Pacific Gas and Electric Company San Francisco, CA ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ----------------------[Reply - Original Message]---------------------- To help start the ball rolling, I have a question to ask. In the Regency, when would a married woman put on a cap? At a certain age? At marriage? Or the birth of the first child? I've either heard of documentation for later (1860's) or in fiction. Does anyone have any quotes and/or descriptions ofthe caps? Thanks and welcome back, Elizabeth Elizabeth Pruyn iteach@slip.net Oakland, CA ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 31 Jul 1996 21:30:50 -0600 To: h-costume@andrew.cmu.edu From: tallison@mcs.com (Tim Allison) Subject: pastel wedding dresses I remember reading an article in a movie magazine in the late fifties or early sixties, about a young actress wearing an ice blue wedding gown. I was surprised but the magazine took it as a matter of course. It was her first marriage, and if she had any children they certainly weren't acknowledged. Carol Mitchell ------------------------------ From: "Donlan, Vincent" To: costume list Subject: Colours Date: Thu, 01 Aug 96 08:31:00 0BS I recently wrote that brides wear white to denote purity, which seems to be the usual opinion. However, it is interesting to note that in Queen Elizabeth's court, Maids of Honour had to wear white and silver with silver denoting purity and white denoting faith, humility and chastity. So indicates Richard Robinson in his translation of an Italian treatise on the symbolism of colour, published in 1583. More later, Sally Ann Chandler, The Historical Clothing Company ------------------------------ From: Ngelina@aol.com Date: Thu, 1 Aug 1996 08:42:34 -0400 To: karen.lovejoy@txgtwy.mcis.washington.edu, h-costume@andrew.cmu.edu Subject: Re: regency costumes For photos of actual garments: _Revolution in Fashion_, ISBN 1-55859-072-2 For sketches and details of actual garments: _Costume in Detail_, ISBN 0-8238-0091-1 For patterns of actual garments: _Patterns of Fashion...c.1660-1860_, ISBN 0-333-13606-3 For standard theatrical patterns with good historical accuracy: _Period Costume for Stage and Screen...1800-1909_, ISBN0-04-440086-1 Not, of course, an exhaustive list. Have a lovely time at the event! Karen/Angelina ------------------------------ End of h-costume Digest Volume 4 Issue 4 ************************************ From ???@??? Mon Aug 12 07:43:25 1996 >From barbara Sun Aug 11 21:18:39 1996 Received: from [130.149.62.16] (ppphome3.prz.tu-berlin.de) by mail.math.TU-Berlin.DE with SMTP id AA07973 (5.67b8/IDA-1.5 for ); Sun, 11 Aug 1996 21:18:28 +0200 X-Sender: barbara@130.149.12.212 (Unverified) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 11 Aug 1996 20:23:13 -0800 To: barbara@math.tu-berlin.de From: Gretchen M Beck (by way of barbara@math.tu-berlin.de (Barbara Maren Winkler)) Subject: H-costume digest. Volume 4 Number 10 H-costume Digest, Volume 4 Number 10 Today's Topics: Help with Past Pattern Corset Re: Mourning collars Re: metal eyelet holes, etc. Dress and Visual Culture in Italy Lady and the Unicorn Long Line Bras -- Merry Widows AUCTION W/ VINTAGE Janet Arnold Renaissance sources for lower middle class Re: Irish costume Sale in SF Roosevelt Brides Historical Clothing Company ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 7 Aug 1996 22:53:06 -0800 To: h-costume@andrew.cmu.edu From: winkler@bg.tu-berlin.de (Barbara Maren Winkler) Subject: Help with Past Pattern Corset Hi all, I recently received Past Patterns' 1863 Corset #703. Please, does anyone of you know if the seam allowances are already included in the pattern? The directions don't say so, but they suggest it. But if so, how much seam allowance is there, i.e. how far away from the fabric edge should I stitch? Thank you so much for your help. Regards Barbara Maren Winkler ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 Aug 1996 15:01:48 -0700 From: gwjchris@ix.netcom.com (Bill and Glenna Christen) Subject: Re: Mourning collars To: h-costume@andrew.cmu.edu You wrote: >Does anyone have a good description of a mourning collar from 1845 - >early 1850~s? I have an original mourning collar. Based on the width of the collar (2 1/2") I would date it to before the 1860's, but mourning fashions often were intentionally a bit behind in fashion trends ("I'm far too sad to notice fashion...") The collar is mounted on a base of dark brown polished cotton bound on all edges with black crape. It consists of 3 rows of black crape with the outer row extending past the edge of the base fabric. The top 2 layers (closest to the neck) each have a narrow (1/2") band of black lace in a pattern of vaguely oak-like leaves, giving it a dagged edge. The effect is very subtle since the lace blends into the crape leaving only a slight change in texture. When the collar is on a dress the squared off ends form a neat 90 degree angle opening. With crape being the "standard" trim material for mourning I would suspect using crape for the collar is more important than lace. This is the only "acceptable" material for mourning veils according to every period source I've found so far. To quote from the 1861 edition of _Beadles Dime Guide..._ again: "The vail (sic) is always of crape, and in this country is worn very long; -- most inconveniently and absurdly so, indeed. In deep mourning, here, it is customary not to wear any white -- even the cuffs and collar are of crape. But elesewhere plain hemmed clear muslin is considered equally proper, and is most worn by widows especially. It certainly has a cleaner look than the black crape round the neck and wrists." This is followed by a list of inappropriate trims for mourning dresses followed by the statement, "...the only fit trimming of which consists of crape folds." The original crape veil I have is a very large rectangle (62"X42") with one hem 1" deep and the other 9" deep and selvage finish on the sides. (Can you tell this is an area I'm very interested in? :-)) My research indicates this uneven hem length is typical, but I'm not sure why it was done this way. Any information out there? One problem with modern silk crepe is that the only kind I've found is more of a charcoal shade rather than the deep black of the originals. It is also not as deeply crinkled and much softer with more of a drape than period crape. Of course the main way this difference would be obvious is if it was compared to the original stuff. It might not handle as well when made into collars or cuffs though. I wonder if modern crepe could be stiffened a bit by using a sugar water solution or would the crape effect wash out. My piece is already made up into a veil so I don't want to experiment with it. Even though my information might be a bit past the period you're looking for, I hope it will still be useful. Glenna Jo Christen gwjchris@ix.netcom.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 Aug 1996 16:56:46 -0700 From: gwjchris@ix.netcom.com (Bill and Glenna Christen) Subject: Re: metal eyelet holes, etc. To: h-costume@andrew.cmu.edu You wrote: >Metal grommets ARE used on gum blankets in the civil war, but the >shelter half used hand stiched grommets just like a sail. I obviously am not that knowledgable on things military. I leave the "boy stuff" to my husband! :-) >I have never seen an orginal 19th century bodices that laced. I've seen two "low bodies," one laced and one had brass hooks and brass eyes. The laced one had hand worked eyelets. Since I've only seen two low bodies I didn't feel I had seen enough to make a judgment. All of the other dresses for day wear were front fastening and most had brass hooks and eyes. One buttoned, but someone had removed the buttons. (Aaarrghh!! A plague on people who dismantle and otherwise abuse original garments!!) Whoever made the dress had sewn in two sets of hooks and eyes at the waist for extra security just as _Beadles Dime Guide..._ had recommended. >I have heard from sources that I would usually trust that hook and >eyes would be alternated to help keep them from opening like a zipper. I've not seen it either, but it would be a good idea. The fact that most dresses during this time period fit very tight the likelihood of them coming unhooked is pretty slim. I've never had one of mine come undone yet. >They do usually have a tape sewn all the way arounf the interior of the waistline, that is tied. I've seen that done only a couple times, but when I have seen it done it has been on very finely made dresses. To qoute again from _Beadles..._ "Many French dress-makers also put tapes at the side-seams, to tie in front, to keep the back more evenly in place." Since, when it came to fashion, all things French were considered the best, many better dressmakers took on French names and airs to increase their business. There is nothing new under the sun is there? :-) Glenna Jo Christen gwjchris@ix.netcom.com ------------------------------ To: h-costume@andrew.cmu.edu From: Viv Watkins Subject: Dress and Visual Culture in Italy Date: Thu, 08 Aug 96 07:52:54 GMT Here is the little I can tell you about this symposium. It was organised by the Courtauld Institute of Art and the Medieval Dress and Textile Society (MEDATS). I was not able to attend so I can't tell you much about it. MEDATS runs 2/3 conferences each year but as they say "because much of the material presented at MEDATS's meetings is as yet unpublished research, transcripts of the papers are not available". There is a very brief write-up in the MEDATS July Newsletter. Membership of MEDATS is around A310 per year (can't remember exactly and I don't know what it would be for overseas members). The Membership Secretary is Frances Pritchard, The Whitworth Art Gallery, Oxford Road, MANCHESTER, M15 6ER. Viv. ------------------------------ From: "Donlan, Vincent" To: costume list Subject: Lady and the Unicorn Date: Thu, 08 Aug 96 12:49:00 0BS To whoever asked about the Lady and the Unicorn - I was about to say that I too believed the pictures to be entirely fanciful and buttons wouldn't really work then I saw a picture from the Sistene Chapel. I don't have the book with me and can't tell you the title off hand, but I'll look it up if you need to know. One of the nymphs (or whatever she is) is wearing a dress which has no shoulders but does seem to button up the side seam, this time under the left arm, and the closing flaps forward, as in the Lady and the Unicorn picture. Even so, having worn garments fastened with buttons of that period, I wouldn't entirely trust such a method of closure to protect my dignity. Sally Ann Chandler The Historical Clothing Company ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 8 Aug 1996 06:41:22 -0700 To: h-costume@andrew.cmu.edu From: Stella Nemeth Subject: Long Line Bras -- Merry Widows > >From: Jafath@aol.com >Date: Sat, 3 Aug 1996 22:53:32 -0400 >To: h-costume@andrew.cmu.edu >Subject: Re: (fwd) bra query > >In a message dated 96-08-02 17:48:42 EDT, drea wrote > >> It went all the way from bust-height (in the back--it was >>below the bust in the front) down to below my hips and to the top of my >>thighs. >> >>It had a front-closing steel busk in the front, with some elastic to >>either side of the busk, and a flap to either side with hooks on the >>center edge that laced over the busk and elastic, drawing the corset >>tighter if you wanted. > >This sounds more like a long-line girdle, still being sold in Sears >catalog in the early 60s, as I recall. I wore longline _bras_ up until >about the time pantyhose came in -- (one way to date things, I guess!) >If you had poor posture it was the only way to wear a strapless bra that >would stay up, and if you had a little more midriff than you thought you >should have, it camoflaged it, at least to your own satisfaction. > >I remember even the "perfect figure" types in high school in the late >50s describing certain prom dresses with "you'd have to wear a Merry >Widow to wear that" and I think they were referring to the problem of >keeping strapless garments up! A Merry Widow is what I wore under my wedding dress in 1961. It's different from a long line bra. My mother wore those in the 1950s, so I've seen both and experienced one of them. The long line bra stopped at the waist and was hooked into her girdle, the girdle in turn being hooked onto stockings, which kept the whole thing together. The Merry Widow was a bra that came down to mid hip level with long garters to hold up stockings. It was tight in the waist area so it would chinch in the waist, but not tight in the hip area because you were wearing it with a full skirted dress and were also wearing several layers of pettycoats to control the dress fullness. Stella s.nemeth@ix.netcom.com ------------------------------ To: L-Soft list server at Brown University , costume list Subject: AUCTION W/ VINTAGE Date: Thu, 08 Aug 96 09:42:50 -0500 From: "Augusta, Karen" -- [ From: Augusta, Karen * EMC.Ver #2.5.02 ] -- On Thursday, August 15th there will be an auction at my home in Westminster, Vt., and 30-40 lots of vintage clothing, textiles, antique laces and linens will be offered to the highest bidder, starting at 10 AM (preview begins at 8 AM). Examples of some lots: Victorian clothing, complete costumes (1880 and 1909 wedding gowns, 1890 brown walking suit, etc.), as well as box lots of whites,etc. - 1920's dresses, a pink velvet beaded one, several lame brocade ones - box lots of : 1920-1940 shoes (men's and women's), purses, scarves, gloves, fans, hatpins, beaded sweaters - 2 huge lots of lace collars - other generous lots of lace yardage - Chinese embroidered silk shawls - a mountain of fancy table and bed linens, lace curtains, bedspreads - silk and chintz drapes - fabric yardage - antique sewing items - needlepoint pieces - quilts and quilt pieces - Jewelery lots : Victorian through 1940, some signed costume (Trifari, Haskell, Weiss, KJL, etc).......and so much more! Anyone in the northeast who might be looking for some vintage treasures might want to attend! Location - Gage St., Westminster, just off Rt. 121, 1 mile out of Bellows Falls, Vt., between exits 5 & 6 of Interstate 91. For further information, call the auctioneer - J.P. Bittner, (802) 875-3786, or call me - Karen Augusta, (802) 463-4958. ------------------------------ From: Mrs C S Yeldham To: h-costume@andrew.cmu.edu Subject: Janet Arnold Date: 08 Aug 96 16:24:00 BST I've been looking through the h-costume archives (isn't filing boring!) and noticed that someone said she had copies of Janet Arnold's articles on smocks and shirts from Waffen und Kostume. Does anyone still have these and would they be kind enough to send them to me in the UK? Yours hopefully Caroline ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 8 Aug 1996 08:46:41 -0700 (PDT) From: Sue Toorans Subject: Renaissance sources for lower middle class To: h-costume@andrew.cmu.edu If anyone can help me, you folks can. I have conceived the notion that I want to weave some linen and build a costume for Renaissance Faire with it. Neither my loom nor my patience are going to allow for some truly fine fabric so what I weave will be more suitable for the lower realms of merchant class or a wealthy peasant (whatever that is). Up until now, all I've been interested in was nobility. All my sources reflect this interest. This is where I need help. Can anyone offer suggestions on where I can look for depictions of the classes that I am interested in, now. To be most believable it would need to be Tudor England. I'd be hard pressed to explain why an Italian peasant was wandering around an English country faire. I have checked out some Bruegal (sp?) and not seen anything of interest. Sue I am *NOT* a rabid feminist! I had my shots last year. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 8 Aug 1996 13:33:42 -0700 (PDT) From: Heather Rose Jones To: h-costume@andrew.cmu.edu Subject: Re: Irish costume On Wed, 7 Aug 1996 ches@io.com wrote: > ..o0*0o.. > S.C.A. alert.....if you do not like us delete the question. > > The years are from 700ad to 1000ad. > Ireland > Well off human males that own farms and animals. > Two men's tunics with decorative trim is the goal. Ok, those are much more useful parameters. There isn't a great deal of direct evidence on the subject, but for quick-and-dirty, a summary of the relevant section of McClintock's "Old Irish & HIghland Dress" should do the trick. The outfit most often mentioned in Irish sources for this period, when referring to upper-class dress, is a combination of a tunic and rectangular cloak. McClintock belives the tunic would normally be of linen. The length ranged from knee-length to ground-length, with some indication that longer lengths correlated with higher social position. Decorations are generally described as being on the hem only, and are described with words that are normally interpreted as embroidery rather than applied trim. The cloak would be a rectangular piece of wool, of variable size, but up to ground-length. There are frequent mentions of decorative edgings or fringes, often as separate, applied bands. The cloak would be fastened, often on the shoulder, with a brooch. (This is the era of the spectacularly beautiful penannular brooches in Ireland.) The tunic would be belted, although there are no clear specifics on the nature of the belt. Shoes would seem to be optional, even for upper-class people. One can't always trust the descriptions of clothing colors found in early literature, but cloaks are mentioned most often as being purple, crimson or green, with lesser mentions of blue, black, yellow, speckled, gray, dun, variegated, and striped. Most are described as being a single color rather than patterned. > They do not want to be so accurate as to outshine the Crown. They want elegant > and simple. If you can help please post to me privately as I do not want to > start an authenticity fight. I can only assume that the opening statement and this last are aimed at my previous post on this subject. I find rather amusing the suggestion that I "don't like" the SCA, considering that I've spent the last nearly twenty years active in the group. I have no problem with the SCA. I _do_ have a problem with the way entirely too many people use the word "Celtic" as if it had some clear, specific meaning that you are expected to know. "Celtic clothing" is not a useful description. "8-10th century Irish upper-class clothing" _is_ a useful description. Heather Rose Jones ------------------------------ From: Cheryl Melnick To: "'h-costume@andrew.cmu.edu'" Subject: Sale in SF Date: Thu, 8 Aug 1996 15:58:53 -0700 Thought this would be of interest: Satin Moon Fabrics 32 Clement Street San Francisco, CA 94118 (415) 668-1623 is having a sale until August 31. 20% off all Fabrics (in stock) and Patterns They are closed Sunday and Monday Cheryl _____________________________________________ Cheryl Melnick General Manager Sessionware Inc. (Microsoft Solution Provider Partner) cheryl@sessionware.com 408-559-7799 http://www.sessionware.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 8 Aug 1996 19:29:06 -0700 To: h-costume@andrew.cmu.edu From: Stella Nemeth Subject: Roosevelt Brides > >Date: Wed, 7 Aug 1996 14:46:14 -0500 >To: h-costume@andrew.cmu.edu >From: rchs@crisny.org (Lorraine E. Weiss) >Subject: Alice blue gowns > >Val Winkler asked about whether Alice Roosevelt Longworth's "Alice blue >gown" was her wedding dress. I read through her biography last night >and found that the blue gown was the result of the commercial >enterprises which sprang from her popularity. There were gloves and >hats and all kinds of things named after her. The story is that someone >produced a blue fabric said to match her eyes and that a seamstress used >this for an "Alice Blue gown." The book said that Alice had a gown made >out of this fabric and wore it once but kept it in a closet after she >heard the song. The book also goes on to say that her wedding dress was >the focus of much public speculation -- now, I can't imagine such a >thing, can you? :) -- but that it was a white wedding gown. (Don't have >the book at hand, but let me know if you want an author's name.) Both Alice and Eleanor were married in white. (Teddy, then President, obviously gave away both daughter and niece.) I've seen photos of both dresses. (Eleanor's is easier to find because there are lots of biographies, but there is a large format book of photos of Alice around as well.) Alice married in the White House. Eleanor chose not to and had a New York wedding which fouled up City traffic for most of the day because the President was in town. Stella s.nemeth@ix.netcom.com ------------------------------ From: "Donlan, Vincent" To: costume list Subject: Historical Clothing Company Date: Fri, 09 Aug 96 13:04:00 0BS Paul, who contacted me earlier re striped sateen - yes, I think I have a source but I'll have to look up the details at home. Please e-mail me on s.a.chandler@shu.ac.uk with your e-mail address (problems in sharing a machine mean I've lost yours) and I'll forward you the details on Monday. Sally Ann Chandler ------------------------------ End of h-costume Digest Volume 4 Issue 10 ************************************ From ???@??? Mon Aug 12 07:43:29 1996 >From barbara Sun Aug 11 21:18:56 1996 Received: from [130.149.62.16] (ppphome3.prz.tu-berlin.de) by mail.math.TU-Berlin.DE with SMTP id AA07981 (5.67b8/IDA-1.5 for ); Sun, 11 Aug 1996 21:18:46 +0200 X-Sender: barbara@130.149.12.212 (Unverified) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 11 Aug 1996 20:23:31 -0800 To: barbara@math.tu-berlin.de From: Gretchen M Beck (by way of barbara@math.tu-berlin.de (Barbara Maren Winkler)) Subject: H-costume digest. Volume 4 Number 9 H-costume Digest, Volume 4 Number 9 Today's Topics: Metropolitan Museum of Art Web Site Maternity Stays-What to wear FYI-A&E's Pride & Prejudice Re: Maternity Stays-What to wear Yorkist? metal eyelet holes Men's pantaloons 1800 - 1820 Mourning collars Ribbonwork classes [Fwd: Re: Men's pantaloons 1800 - 1820] Silk Lace Re: Mourning collars Alice blue gowns Re: metal eyelet holes Re: Maternity Stays-What to wear Irish costume Re: FYI-A&E's Pride & Prejudice ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 06 Aug 1996 16:39:23 -0700 From: Frances Grimble To: h-costume@andrew.cmu.edu Subject: Metropolitan Museum of Art Web Site People might be interested in the Metropolitan Museum of Art on-line catalog. It's not as big as their hard-copy catalog, but it's nice. The html is: http://www.metmuseum.org/htmlfile/opening/enter.html Fran Grimble ------------------------------ To: h-costume+@andrew.cmu.edu From: iteach@slip.net (Elizabeth Pruyn) Subject: Maternity Stays-What to wear Date: Tue, 6 Aug 1996 17:37:30 -0700 >1) I'm now expecting my first! (wow!) And naturally my > thoughts turn to... >OMIGAWD! WHAT AM I GOING TO WEAR TO TWELFTH NIGHT???? >The only one I can remember off hand is "The Elizabethan Costuming >Book." I'll dig up the info if you would like. >I made a Ropa last year as part of my first elizabethan garb. I was a bit afraid of the farthingale, but wanted something that fit the period. It came out beautifully with only a few minor problems. It's extremely comfortable to wear over a smock or underdress without all of the confining underpinnings. Complete the look with a bag hat or muffin cap and you're all set! I also wore a surcoat from month 4 on and through nursing and the losing of the weight...well sort of... I used the Savoy/Winter book, Janet Arnold and some pictures for guidance. I also had a maternity corset made. We choose the maternity stays pattern from Past Patterns (1860's) and it was wonderful. I could never have made it through 9+ hours out at the Faire without them. It gave me the back support I needed. It also helped with the look of gown. A surcoat was generally worn over a gown, so I added a fancy panel on the front of the stays to look like the bodice and then used my old underskirt and hoops with some doctoring of the waistbands. Hope this helps and congratulations. Costuming a child is alot of fun. Yours, Elizabeth Elizabeth Pruyn iteach@slip.net Oakland, CA "If I had been around when Rubens was painting, I would have been revered as a fabulous model. Kate Moss? Well, she would have been the paint brush..." - Dawn French ------------------------------ To: h-costume+@andrew.cmu.edu From: iteach@slip.net (Elizabeth Pruyn) Subject: FYI-A&E's Pride & Prejudice Date: Tue, 6 Aug 1996 17:37:26 -0700 Hi there, I was in my PriceCostco (San Francisco Bay Area) today and found the above for $59.99. This is compared to $124.99-$149.99 in any of the catalogs I've seen. Yours, Elizabeth Elizabeth Pruyn iteach@slip.net Oakland, CA "If I had been around when Rubens was painting, I would have been revered as a fabulous model. Kate Moss? Well, she would have been the paint brush..." - Dawn French ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 6 Aug 1996 23:42:09 -0400 (EDT) From: aleed To: Elizabeth Pruyn cc: h-costume+@andrew.cmu.edu Subject: Re: Maternity Stays-What to wear Elizabeth, What did your maternity stays look like? I always considered the concept of stays and the state of pregnancy to be diametrically opposed. Drea ------------------------------- We've secretly replaced their dilithium crystals with new folgers crystals. Now let's watch them go to warp. ------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 06 Aug 1996 22:05:48 GMT From: db-cos@westmore.demon.co.uk (David Brewer) To: h-costume@andrew.cmu.edu Subject: Yorkist? In message <960806084211_593417744@emout10.mail.aol.com> Ngelina@aol.com writes: > As for 12th Night...Elyramere of Tymberlyne Heyghts made herself a Yorkist ^^^^^^^ Pardon my ignorance, but what is a "Yorkist"? (Apart from an adherant to the House of York, that is.) -- David Brewer ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 Aug 96 13:53:21 UT From: "Rebecca Plummer" To: h-costume@andrew.cmu.edu Subject: metal eyelet holes Does anyone know if metal eyelets were used during the Civil War period? I've heard and read different things. And if so or if not, do you know approximately when they first came in to use? Thanks, c/o ******************************************** Rebecca A. Plummer Past Impressions - Reproduction Vintage Clothing for All Ages 13912 Springhouse Court Clifton, VA 20124 (703)266-1299 ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 07 Aug 1996 12:05:38 -0400 From: Dale Loberger To: h-costume@andrew.cmu.edu Subject: Men's pantaloons 1800 - 1820 Does anyone have any experience working with the early nineteenth c. (1800 - 1820) mens' formal pantaloons that buttoned all the way up the leg from ankle to hip? Any surviving examples? Anyone ever tried reconstructing a pair or know of a pattern? If so, _please_ let me know. I have a client who has requested a pair and I hesitate to start with the dearth of information on how they were made. I have amassed four examples from genre paintings and portraits of upper class young men wearing them; most seem to be of a military background from the style of their short jackets, although one is clearly not wearing any type of military garment, but instead sports a formal black cutaway tailcoat. Did they "evolve" from any particular military uniform - maybe French naval or something? (I have a late 18th c. picture of a French officer -unidentified- wearing what appear to be dark leather overalls styled very similarly to these later formal pantaloons that buttoned all the way up the outside of the leg.) Three do not seem to have a fall but one appears to have. Could they have just fastened using the side buttons without the fall? What were they usually made of? My guesses from the pictures would be nankeen or perhaps light-colored linen, black worsted-weight wool, and stockinette (referred to as "elastic" in period descriptions). Also, the buttons are referred to as "white" but they appear to be pewter. Help ~I have a rich young man character to dress and I don't want him to look like an idiot. Susannah Eanes, Mantua Maker and Fine Tailoring (Susan B. Loberger for Susannah~s Heirloom, Ltd.) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 07 Aug 1996 12:08:24 -0400 From: Dale Loberger To: h-costume@andrew.cmu.edu Subject: Mourning collars All you experts on antebellum mourning out there - Help!!: Does anyone have a good description of a mourning collar from 1845 - early 1850~s? All I have is the Joan Severa portrait in "Dressed for the Photographer" (p. 116) and I need to reconstruct one, of lace if possible. I have heard that all the French silk lace-making machines were reportedly either destroyed during the bombing of Calais in WWII or were sold to China (in the hopes that they would combine their silk industry with this technology and produce new silk lace; but unfortunately they are using the machines to make nylon lace instead. Phooey.) Unless I meet up with a collector who could bear to part with a precious piece of silk lace I am out of luck, and since there will never be any more made apparently I wouldn't dare to cut any up to make anything out of it anyway, so silk lace is out. Nylon or any synthetic is out, because it has to be museum-quality. Given all these difficulties, would black cotton point d'esprit be OK? Is there a source for silk tulle or net that I haven't discovered, so that I might embroider (chain stitch) my own and call it "silk lace"? (Would that be tacky?) I have a source for the point d'esprit but I wanted to hear if it was the best choice or if embroidered net was better (or worse). Any ideas out there? This is to be worn at a funeral re-enactment, so its first, heavy mourning. The widow was about 25 years old. Does anyone think a silk crape collar would be more appropriate? Also, would a black lace or silk crape veil over the hat (face) be better? Please give refs to back up opinions where possible. Thanks! Susannah Eanes, Mantua Maker and Fine Tailoring (Susan B. Loberger for Susannahs Heirloom, Ltd.) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 Aug 1996 10:26:23 -0700 From: To: h-costume@andrew.cmu.edu Subject: Ribbonwork classes Cc: kondoa@ucs.orst.edu Nationally known ribbonwork artist Candace Kling will be teaching two all day classes in Corvallis, OR on the weekend of Sept 21-22. "Beginning Ribbon Flowers" will be on Saturday 9/21 & "Antique Ribbonwork & Trims" on Sunday 9/22. The techniques taught in both classes are very applicable to historic dress, especially the Georgian, Victorian & Art Deco eras. Students leave the hand-on class with a large sample board of ribbon trims or flowers they have made in the class. THe cost is $55 for one class, $100 for both. (The classes are sponsored by Beyond Reality, the NW chapter of the non-profit ICG, so the cost covers only the instructors fee & transportation). It is pre-registration only, first come, first serve. Contact Joy Day (503-538-1617 or hotfudge@teleport.com) for more information. Registrations can be sent to BR costumers Guild, POB 272, Dundee, OR 97115 ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 07 Aug 1996 11:06:03 -0700 From: Frances Grimble To: h-costume@andrew.cmu.edu Subject: [Fwd: Re: Men's pantaloons 1800 - 1820] Susannah, I know of two patterns for pantaloons: Norah Waugh's _The Cut of Men's Clothes 1600-1900_ (my edition is Theatre Arts Books, 1964) contains a pattern taken from a 1795 pair of pantaloons. Waugh discusses fabrics. R. L. Shep's 1991 _Late Georgian Costume_ contains a reprint of J. Wyatt's 1822 _The Tailor's Friendly Instructor_, which in turn contains instructions and illustrations for drafting pantaloons. Hope this helps. Fran Grimble ------------------------------ From: "Carol Kocian" To: h-costume@andrew.cmu.edu Date: Wed, 7 Aug 1996 14:08:18 -500 Subject: Silk Lace While this may only be helpful as a tangent, > Is there a source for silk tulle or net that I haven't discovered, > so that I might embroider (chain stitch) my own and call it "silk > lace"? (Would that be tacky?) A hexagonal mesh stitch is pretty easy to learn as far as bobbin lace goes. If there are no other sources for silk net, it may be the only way to get it. I don't know if it's tacky or if it's worth your time to learn. Your friendly neighborhood lace maker could teach you, or you can find it in most of the basic bobbin lace books out there. -Carol ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 07 Aug 1996 11:31:44 -0700 From: Frances Grimble To: Dale Loberger CC: h-costume@andrew.cmu.edu Subject: Re: Mourning collars Susannah, It's actually not that hard to find Victorian and Edwardian lace collars that are very attractive and in good condition. (A turn-of-the-century collar of the right shape and lace type would work as well as an 1845-1850 collar, although you do see those too.) They are sold at vintage clothing stores and shows in a wide variety of sizes, shapes, and lace types. Including silk laces, and black laces in a variety of fibers. You also see bits and pieces of a good size to make collars, particularly rectangularly shaped ones like the collar on page 116 of Severa's book. You might be able to baste back the front edges of a more rounded collar. Vintage silk laces are more fragile than linen and cotton ones, but not necessarily unusable. However, I would not recommend buying black lace. Vintage black laces are significantly more fragile due to the corrosive dyes that were used. But obviously you could dye an off-white vintage lace piece black with a modern dye. The collar should be basted to the dress neck so it can be removed for separate hand washing. Fran Grimble ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 Aug 1996 14:46:14 -0500 To: h-costume@andrew.cmu.edu From: rchs@crisny.org (Lorraine E. Weiss) Subject: Alice blue gowns Val Winkler asked about whether Alice Roosevelt Longworth's "Alice blue gown" was her wedding dress. I read through her biography last night and found that the blue gown was the result of the commercial enterprises which sprang from her popularity. There were gloves and hats and all kinds of things named after her. The story is that someone produced a blue fabric said to match her eyes and that a seamstress used this for an "Alice Blue gown." The book said that Alice had a gown made out of this fabric and wore it once but kept it in a closet after she heard the song. The book also goes on to say that her wedding dress was the focus of much public speculation -- now, I can't imagine such a thing, can you? :) -- but that it was a white wedding gown. (Don't have the book at hand, but let me know if you want an author's name.) Lorraine Weiss Education Director Rensselaer County Historical Society Troy, NY (rchs@crisny.org) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 Aug 1996 12:43:35 -0700 From: gwjchris@ix.netcom.com (Bill and Glenna Christen) Subject: Re: metal eyelet holes To: h-costume@andrew.cmu.edu You wrote: > >Does anyone know if metal eyelets were used during the Civil War >period? I'm not certain when they first were used, but they definitly were used for hard use areas such as corsets and "dog" shelters by the army. I haven't examined enough original dresses to know if they were being used on back fastened evening dresses. A recommendation from _Beadles Dime Guide to Dress-Making and Millinery_ from 1861 refers to eyelets, but not metal grommets, in the following quote on evening dresses from pg. 35: "Low bodies are sometimes laced up the back; but hooks and eyelets are better, with small buttons set on for ornament, and one really securing the top." (FYI, "Low bodies" are what we would now refer to as a ball dress bodice.) Glenna Jo Christen gwjchris@ix.netcom.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 Aug 1996 14:16:12 -0700 From: gwjchris@ix.netcom.com (Bill and Glenna Christen) Subject: Re: Maternity Stays-What to wear To: h-costume@andrew.cmu.edu You wrote: >What did your maternity stays look like? I always considered the >concept of stays and the state of pregnancy to be diametrically >opposed. I have the same corset. It is very long, coming up over the bust, with shoulder straps, and down over the hips, which is long by Civil War era corsets. It laces up the back but buttons up the front and is not boned. What makes the corset so useful is the two long lace up slashes down both front sides to adjust as you expand. The laces make it possible to tie the bottom of the corset under you ever growing belly giving extra support if you carry very far forward as some women do. For after delivery, there are button flaps at the breasts for nursing purposes. After a very pregant friend wore this corset with my reproduction maternity gown she didn't want to give it up! No waist cinching, but good back and belly support, just what a pregant woman usually wants and needs. Glenna Jo Christen gwjchris@ix.netcom.com ------------------------------ From: ches@io.com Date: Wed, 7 Aug 96 16:06:57 PDT Subject: Irish costume To: h-costume@andrew.cmu.edu ..o0*0o.. S.C.A. alert.....if you do not like us delete the question. The years are from 700ad to 1000ad. Ireland Well off human males that own farms and animals. Two men's tunics with decorative trim is the goal. I need to know what patterns and colors best suite a man with a 64 inch waist that is slightly over 6' tall for the type of outfit in that time period and area mentioned above. The second male is his second and stands at 5'7". They both have red hair. The only source they have is an old publication from the S.C.A. They do not want to be so accurate as to outshine the Crown. They want elegant and simple. If you can help please post to me privately as I do not want to start an authenticity fight. Lady Chiara Ciao @}\ Ches @}----`--,-- http://www.io.com/~ches @}/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 Aug 1996 17:47:30 -0400 (EDT) From: Gretchen M Beck To: Historical Costume Mailing List Subject: Re: FYI-A&E's Pride & Prejudice Cc: .....and A&E is announcing they are going to air it again starting August 25. They are also running a Pride and Prejudice sweepstakes with various P&P related prizes. According to the ads, details can be had at their web site. toodles, gretchen ------------------------------ End of h-costume Digest Volume 4 Issue 9 ************************************ From ???@??? Mon Aug 12 07:43:32 1996 >From barbara Sun Aug 11 21:19:08 1996 Received: from [130.149.62.16] (ppphome3.prz.tu-berlin.de) by mail.math.TU-Berlin.DE with SMTP id AA07985 (5.67b8/IDA-1.5 for ); Sun, 11 Aug 1996 21:18:58 +0200 X-Sender: barbara@130.149.12.212 (Unverified) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 11 Aug 1996 20:23:42 -0800 To: barbara@math.tu-berlin.de From: Gretchen M Beck (by way of barbara@math.tu-berlin.de (Barbara Maren Winkler)) Subject: H-costume digest. Volume 4 Number 8 H-costume Digest, Volume 4 Number 8 Today's Topics: Fur coats RE: Fur coats Re: H-costume digest. Volume 4 Number 1 Re: london re:dress closure around 1500 N Re: Bandanas Re: Fur coats Re: Temporary Problems Celtic questions Re: Temporary Problems Temporary Problem Re: Celtic questions ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 5 Aug 1996 16:31:50 -0500 (CDT) From: Dennis Bednarek Mfg 4-6971 ~BHOSVWZ#097 Subject: Fur coats To: h-costume@andrew.cmu.edu Cc: +dist+/afs/andrew.cmu.edu/usr7/grm/Miscell/h-costume-digest.dl@andrew.cmu.ed u In the process of sorting through and disposing of many of my mothers items I have come across several fur items. Mainly several coats of various fur types as well as a set of Sables that were fashionable around there necks years back. From the best of my knowledge these items are 1950's vintage or early 1960's and all in like new condition. My question is what to do with them? I know they costed hundreds of dollars when they were new if not even more and would hate to send them to good will or the like where they would not be apreciated. Anyone have any good sugestions? Dennis ------------------------------------------------------------------------ return address: bednarekd@picard.med.ge.com mleather@tbdmil.com ms696969@aol.com Snail Mail Creative Photography PO Box 141 Muk. Wi. 53149 Recommended WWW sites: http://blake.oit.unc.edu:80/~fish/aga/ http://www.cco.caltech.edu/~aquaria/Krib/index.html ----------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ From: Cheryl Melnick To: "'Dennis Bednarek Mfg 4-6971 ~BHOSVWZ#097'" ,"'h-costume@andrew.cmu.edu'" Subject: RE: Fur coats Date: Mon, 5 Aug 1996 15:07:20 -0700 Many years ago, my (than) business partner and I traded some custom made masks for a queen-sized quilt of fox fur. The client found out he was allergic to the fur, and needed it out of the house asap, hence the trade. The following is a list of what we did with all that fur: Baby booties Trim on Renaissance outfits Sheath for knifes (interior of sheath was hardened leather) Victorian muff Trim of Victorian purse (matching above item) Trim of ends of bows for Victorian Hat (matching above item) Trim on Victorian capelet (matching above item) Pouches/Purses for Renaissance outfits Earmuffs Leg wraps You could also make a Russian Hat or donate the coats to your local activist Animals Rights group and take a tax deduction. I'm sure other people on this list will come forward with many more unique ideas than what I posted. Cheryl _____________________________________________ Cheryl Melnick General Manager Sessionware Inc. (Microsoft Solution Provider Partner) cheryl@sessionware.com 408-559-7799 http://www.sessionware.com >---------- >From: Dennis Bednarek Mfg 4-6971 >~BHOSVWZ#097[SMTP:bednarek@tidalwave.med.ge.com] >Sent: Monday, August 05, 1996 2:31 PM >To: h-costume@andrew.cmu.edu >Cc: > +dist+/afs/andrew.cmu.edu/usr7/grm/Miscell/h-costume-digest.dl@andrew.c >mu.edu >Subject: Fur coats > >In the process of sorting through and disposing of many of my >mothers items I have come across several fur items. Mainly several >coats of various fur types as well as a set of Sables that were >fashionable around there necks years back. From the best of my >knowledge these items are 1950's vintage or early 1960's and all >in like new condition. My question is what to do with them? >I know they costed hundreds of dollars when they were new if not >even more and would hate to send them to good will or the like >where they would not be apreciated. Anyone have any good sugestions? > >Dennis > >--------------------------------------------------------------------- > >return address: >bednarekd@picard.med.ge.com > mleather@tbdmil.com > ms696969@aol.com > >Snail Mail Creative Photography > PO Box 141 > Muk. Wi. 53149 > >Recommended WWW sites: http://blake.oit.unc.edu:80/~fish/aga/ > >http://www.cco.caltech.edu/~aquaria/Krib/index.html >---------------------------------------------------------------------- > ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 5 Aug 1996 16:02:14 -0700 To: h-costume@andrew.cmu.edu From: willow@recreating-history.com (The Polsons) Subject: Re: H-costume digest. Volume 4 Number 1 >I missed you all, too! (Addiction is a terrible thing...) > >What has everyone been doing during the Great Hiatus? > >Karen/Angelina Well, since you asked... ;> 1) I'm now expecting my first! (wow!) And naturally my thoughts turn to... OMIGAWD! WHAT AM I GOING TO WEAR TO TWELFTH NIGHT???? I am insanely busy, and can't see designing/sewing/altering/fitting something I'm only going to wear once. (Considering how I feel, there's no way I'm going through this again!) B-| Oh, well, I'll be able to go to reenactments & stuff again after February... (1. Not yet, the ultrasound isn't for another month, and even then I don't know if we'll choose to find out. 2. Lhianna Rose for a girl, Cian (pronounced Kee-an) for a boy (no middle name decided on). 3. Feb. 7th... Anything else? I know how nosy ladies can be... hee hee ;>) (I appear to have broken one of the rules on our current charter by discussing family life... reprimand me if you will...) 2) I don't know if it was up when the plug got pulled, but Recreating History now has a web page with living history links galore! In fact, if you have or know of a costume/living history link that isn't there now, please send it to me so I can add it to the Big List (I haven't counted, but there must be well over 100 links now... maybe getting close to 200. But I want MORE! ;>) I've gleaned the ones out of the last costume digest, so you don't need to repeat those. Thanks! 8-) 3) I don't know where else to ask, but can someone out there do an article for me on period hairstyles? Please contact me via private e-mail if you feel you can. Thanks! Well, I look forward to more fabric fun. I'm especially looking forward to more color names! 8-D Penny, if that's a published book that people can buy, please send me a copy and I'll be happy to review it. See you, everybody! 8-) ********************************************** Willow Polson....willow@recreating-history.com Recreating History magazine ..."Historic Crafts, Cooking, and Clothing"... ----> http://www.recreating-history.com <----- Call us toll free! 1-(888) REENACT (733-6228) ********************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 5 Aug 1996 16:30:52 -0700 (PDT) To: LSCHWARZKO@aol.com From: roberta@quake.net (Roberta Blake Marietta) Subject: Re: london Cc: h-costume@andrew.cmu.edu >Off particular interest are stores and museums which would show clothing for >children or that could provide inspiration. the august issue of travel and leisure magazine has an article on london, and cites this store as claiming to have the world's largest collection of vintage couture for sale. Steinberg & Tolkien 193 Kings Rd. 44-171/376-3660 have fun. -roberta ------------------------------ From: DGC3%Rates%FAR@go50.comp.pge.com Date: Mon, 5 Aug 96 17:53:24 PDT To: Subject: re:dress closure around 1500 N Lisa Leong wrote: Hi all, I've been looking at photographs of _The Lady With the Unicorn_ tapestry series which were woven around 1500. In the one called _Smell_ one of the ladies is wearing a gown that shows buttons from the hip to the waist (and maybe up to the armhole, her arm covers it). ------------------------------------- And I add: Having recently seen this set of tapestries at the Cluny Museum in Paris -- it is so very lovely that I wanted to make all six outfits! In the fine print, the exhibit noted that the costume styles were the fantasy of the artist, and not reflections of any style worn anywhere in France at the time. More Italian than French, in the curator's opinion. I'd get a second source before citing these tapestries for period practice. But are they ever gorgeous. Rescued from being used as throw rugs by the 19th C. novelist Georges Sand. Danine Cozzens Internet: dgc3@pge.com Phone: 415/973-1388 Pacific Gas and Electric Company San Francisco, CA ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------ To: h-costume+@andrew.cmu.edu From: iteach@slip.net (Elizabeth Pruyn) Subject: Re: Bandanas Date: Mon, 5 Aug 1996 18:28:51 -0700 >Can anyone suggest a source for information about bandanas used on cattle >drives in the 1800's? ( Size, color, pattern???). >A few years ago they had french print pre-analine dye colored 19th c. >bandana blanks that you could buy at Stone Mountain in Berkeley CA. They >cut the square out, you sew the edges. Sorry I don't have the number for >Stone Mountain, but they would be a 510 area code. >A solid color silk square is fine too. Hi there, The number for Stone Mountain & Daughter is 510-845-6106. The bandanas were also available at one point at Poppy Fabric (510-655-5151). That's where my husband got his for his Old West outfit. Yours, Elizabeth Elizabeth Pruyn iteach@slip.net Oakland, CA "If I had been around when Rubens was painting, I would have been revered as a fabulous model. Kate Moss? Well, she would have been the paint brush..." - Dawn French ------------------------------ From: Kathri@aol.com Date: Tue, 6 Aug 1996 01:58:19 -0400 To: h-costume@andrew.cmu.edu Subject: Re: Fur coats In a message dated 96-08-05 17:49:39 EDT, bednarek@tidalwave.med.ge.com (Dennis Bednarek) wrote: << I know they costed hundreds of dollars when they were new if not even more and would hate to send them to good will or the like where they would not be apreciated. Anyone have any good sugestions? Dennis >> I saw an article about a husband-and-wife company that makes teddy bears out of fur coats. They don't work cheap, and I didn't save the article which ran in the Houston Chronicle a year or two ago. Now I regret it. If anyone knows an address, please tell me as well as Dennis! I think the company was in New Mexico or Arizona, but I'm not at all sure. Thanks, Kathri kathri@aol.com ------------------------------ From: Ngelina@aol.com Date: Tue, 6 Aug 1996 08:42:12 -0400 To: willow@recreating-history.com, h-costume@andrew.cmu.edu Subject: Re: Temporary Problems >1) I'm now expecting my first! (wow!) And naturally my thoughts turn to... >OMIGAWD! WHAT AM I GOING TO WEAR TO TWELFTH NIGHT???? Congratulations! Hope it's a girl, they're so much more fun to dress. Know you will love it madly in any case. As for 12th Night...Elyramere of Tymberlyne Heyghts made herself a Yorkist that she looked smashing in both during and after. Alison Kirkudbright made a drop-dead Spanish surcoat. Italian Rennaissance is the most common suggestion on the Rialto, and houppelandes would seem to be an obvious choice. Best wishes, Karen/Angelina ------------------------------ From: ches@io.com Date: Tue, 6 Aug 96 08:36:43 PDT Subject: Celtic questions To: h-costume@andrew.cmu.edu ..o0*0o.. I am the head of the local clothiers guild (s.c.a.) and was pleasantly surprised when two men showed up to find costumes that they could make for a Celtic court. We looked through all my books and found that what is called Celtic is really Norman or Frankish, etc, etc. No Normans will be allowed to this persona court. HELP! As we are pressed for time and may not have the time to find the RIGHT book are there any suggestions out there for over tunics and more importantly the decorative trim that will go on it? What is a boat neckline? (new one on me but then I love to learn!) BTW the only source for celtic clothing I found was in an illuminations book. The people are all in floor length tunics with jewled 5 inch widths of what looks like a seperate piece of fabric applied to the tunics. Some stripes are verticle others are horizontal some have both, one under the other. Lady Chiara Ciao @}\ Ches @}----`--,-- http://www.io.com/~ches @}/ ------------------------------ From: mgriggs@shepards.com Date: Tue, 6 Aug 96 08:37:49 MDT Subject: Re: Temporary Problems To: h-costume@andrew.cmu.edu Cc: >1) I'm now expecting my first! (wow!) And naturally my > thoughts turn to... >OMIGAWD! WHAT AM I GOING TO WEAR TO TWELFTH NIGHT???? How about a Spanish surcoat or Ropa? It is very comfortable and can be worn after the baby is born. It is also very practical as part of the design contains nursing slits! I have information for pictures and patterns at home. The only one I can remember off hand is "The Elizabethan Costuming Book." I'll dig up the info if you would like. I made a Ropa last year as part of my first elizabethan garb. I was a bit afraid of the farthingale, but wanted something that fit the period. It came out beautifully with only a few minor problems. It's extremely comfortable to wear over a smock or underdress without all of the confining underpinnings. Complete the look with a bag hat or muffin cap and you're all set! Good Luck and congratulations! Lyssa mgriggs@shepards.com or Lyssa@kktv.com ------------------------------ From: Mrs C S Yeldham To: h-costume@andrew.cmu.edu Subject: Temporary problem Date: 06 Aug 96 16:26:00 BST I've seen an English loose-bodied gown (mid-late 16th century)worn to great effect at 8.5 months, and only the undergarments needed altering during the pregnancy and after. Good luck (and steer him towards late medieval Italian if its a boy!) Caroline ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 6 Aug 1996 12:34:33 -0700 (PDT) From: Heather Rose Jones To: h-costume@andrew.cmu.edu Subject: Re: Celtic questions On Tue, 6 Aug 1996 ches@io.com wrote: > I am the head of the local clothiers guild (s.c.a.) and was pleasantly > surprised when two men showed up to find costumes that they could make for a > Celtic court. We looked through all my books and found that what is called > Celtic is really Norman or Frankish, etc, etc. No Normans will be allowed to Well, right off the top, you're going to need to define some terms and provide more specifics. For the medieval period, the word "Celtic" has almost no functional usefulness, unless you are talking about linguistics. There could be as much diversity within the various medieval Celtic cultures as there was between "the Celts" considered as a group versus "the non-Celts". So ... By "Celtic costumes" do you mean clothing worn by someone belonging to one of the several and diverse cultures associated with Celtic languages? Or by "Celtic costumes" do you mean costumes that will iconically say "Celt" to the average, untutored observer? Depending on the precise period, social station, and culture, the clothing worn by a "Celt" could be exactly identical, or only subtly different, from the clothing worn by neighboring non-Celtic people. > this persona court. HELP! As we are pressed for time and may not have the time > to find the RIGHT book are there any suggestions out there for over tunics and > more importantly the decorative trim that will go on it? What is a boat > neckline? (new one on me but then I love to learn!) BTW the only source for > celtic clothing I found was in an illuminations book. The people are all in > floor length tunics with jewled 5 inch widths of what looks like a seperate > piece of fabric applied to the tunics. Some stripes are verticle others are > horizontal some have both, one under the other. Which is virtually identical to the clothing depicted in contemporary Frankish or Anglo-Saxon art! My advice is that any time you get someone throwing the word "Celtic" around as applied to material culture (assuming they aren't talking about Bronze Age or Early Iron Age material culture) then you are automatically entering into the realm of non-historicity. There was no coherent, unified "Celtic culture" in the Middle Ages. You have Irish culture -- which came in many different internal flavors. You have Scottish culture -- which came in many different internal flavors. You have Welsh culture -- which came in many different internal flavors. You have Cornish culture -- which we know next to nothing about. You have Breton culture -- which was probably far more similar to French culture than it was to the insular Celtic cultures. Now, if your clients want to narrow down what they mean by "Celtic" to a specific culture and time period, then we may be able to help them more productively. Heather Rose Jones ------------------------------ End of h-costume Digest Volume 4 Issue 8 ************************************ From ???@??? Mon Aug 12 07:43:35 1996 >From barbara Sun Aug 11 21:19:21 1996 Received: from [130.149.62.16] (ppphome3.prz.tu-berlin.de) by mail.math.TU-Berlin.DE with SMTP id AA07989 (5.67b8/IDA-1.5 for ); Sun, 11 Aug 1996 21:19:10 +0200 X-Sender: barbara@130.149.12.212 (Unverified) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 11 Aug 1996 20:23:54 -0800 To: barbara@math.tu-berlin.de From: Gretchen M Beck (by way of barbara@math.tu-berlin.de (Barbara Maren Winkler)) Subject: H-costume digest. Volume 4 Number 7 H-costume Digest, Volume 4 Number 7 Today's Topics: Re: Fraying Re: Wedding colors and patterns Re: (fwd) bra query Minoan Body Modification Re: 1950's bra question Hello again! Re: Bandana research Re: Minoan Body Modification (1) blue wedding gowns (2) Pennsic RE: 1800's bandanas Italian Dress Convention in London, June Re: Wedding colors and patterns Re: Wedding colors and patterns Re: (fwd) bra query Corsets in the deep south Corsets in the deep south Jane Ashelford's Book ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 2 Aug 1996 16:15:20 -0400 (EDT) From: Gretchen M Beck To: Historical Costume Mailing List Subject: Re: Fraying Cc: Excerpts from internet.other.h-costume: 2-Aug-96 Fraying by MDSDMB@aol.com > An 1845 sewing manual says to paint the edge to be cut with gum. > That may mean shellac, but it may not. > My guess would be that this means Gum Arabic (can't justify this, other than that Gum Arabic is used for a lot of things in period, and that, based on my experience with it in painting, it would make an excellent fray-check) Gum Arabic should be available at your local art supply school. toodles, gretchen ----------------------------- Date: Fri, 2 Aug 1996 16:24:22 -0400 (EDT) From: Gretchen M Beck To: Historical Costume Mailing List Subject: Re: Wedding colors and patterns Cc: Excerpts from internet.other.h-costume: 2-Aug-96 Wedding colors and patterns by Barbara Wolff@facstaff.w > Do any of you know if 19th C. non-white wedding gowns were restricted to > solid colors? Was printed fabric considered proper for second-time-around > nuptials, and they were, what prints were OK (paisley, plaid?)? And if so, > were prints favored by particular segments of society? I doubt there were restrictions for printed fabrics. Most people probably just wore their best dress, whatever that happened to be. For an example, see Those Happy Golden Years by Laura Ingalls Wilder. She describes how she picked out the dress to wear for her wedding (I believe she choose her best dress, which was black, despite "married in black"--it's been a long time since I read these books, though...) toodles, gretchen ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 2 Aug 1996 16:40:55 -0400 (EDT) From: aleed To: Babs Woods cc: h-costume@andrew.cmu.edu Subject: Re: (fwd) bra query > > > > 1950s - long line bras. I was VERY young at this time so I have to rely on > > the recollections of others. Some say the 1950 Long lines were fine to > > wear. Others say that they were hell, because they restricted the lower > > ribs and were well boned. Has the long line of today softened from that of > > the 1950s ? > > I had the good fortune to come across three long line bras dating from the 50s or earlier at a garage sale. One of them even fit me! It had 1/4 inch steel boning in pairs along the seams, encased in twill tape, and was /very/ sturdy. It went all the way from bust-height (in the back--it was below the bust in the front) down to below my hips and to the top of my thighs. It had a front-closing steel busk in the front, with some elastic to either side of the busk, and a flap to either side with hooks on the center edge that laced over the busk and elastic, drawing the corset tighter if you wanted. The first time I tried it on, I found it exceedingly awkward. The bottom of the bones dug into my skin until I figured out how to lace the thing properly to keep the hip area loose enough. It also scrunched up every time I sat down. But when I attatched stockings to the garters at the bottom, that problem was fixed. Once I got used to it, though, it was quite comfortable. Great Back support. Drea > > > > Do let me know your comments > > > > Deb > > -babs > > "Excuse me, while I dance a little jig of despair." > - hadley@ics.uci.edu (Ted Hadley) > ------------------------------- We've secretly replaced their dilithium crystals with new folgers crystals. Now let's watch them go to warp. ------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 2 Aug 1996 18:47:01 -0400 (EDT) From: Beja To: Mrs C S Yeldham cc: h-costume@andrew.cmu.edu Subject: Minoan Body Modification > If the Minoans used an iron ring about the waist to control the size of > waist (women and men?), what happened about pregnancy? Did the > articifically small waist only apply to young women, or those who had > chosen chastity, or did the women have to strive to recover the small > waist? Finally I can contribute something to the discussion on this list. :) These are very interesting questions! I meant to ask about where the idea of Minoan body modification through the use of metal rings came from when I saw the original post. I'm not aware of any physical evidence (in the form of skeletal remains) which would support this hypothesis. I would imagine that like foot binding, modifying the waist with metal rings would change the sketetal structure...? While Minoans (both male and female) are depicted with diminutive waists, this in itself is not sufficient proof of the practice of waist training. The whole issue really rests on how accurately the Minoans represented themselves. We do know the Minoan artists were strongly influenced by the Egyptians in terms of the cannon of proportions for the human form, and the different colors used to render gender. So, the slender waists, broad shoulders, and narrow hips could merely be a Minoan translation of the Egyptian tradition of human representation. The problem of the degree of idealization in the rendering of the human form is a fascinating one. On the subject of Minoan dress... a great majority of their representations show some form of distinct double ringed belt around the waist. In many instances this is found at the waist, particularly in two-dimensional renderings. However, in those figures which were rendered three-dimensionally, the belt often appears to be worn lower on the torso. These 3-d images would suggest the belts were not used for a waist reduction purpose, since they fall well below the waist... but again, the whole problem lies in how accurately the Minoans' renditions reflect actuality. I'm not aware of any Minoan metal rings which might have been used for this purpose. Wouldn't the metal rings be left on the body when it was interred? To my knowledge none have been found in a funerary context. I would imagine if this practice was going on, they would have used materials which have since vanished (leather, textiles, etc). The Minoan mind set as far as pregnancy is concerned is a mystery. As I read this post it struck me that I cannot think of one Minoan image of a pregnant woman! In a society whose religious beliefs are thought to have revolved around fertility of man and beast, this is very surprising. Images of children are also rare, although there are a few examples from the Bronze Age Aegean. For those of you who are interested in pursuing Bronze Age Aegean costuming you may want to have a look at: S. Peterson. "A Costuming Scene from the Room of the Ladies at Thera." _Ameraican Journal of Archaeology_ 85 (1981) 211. S. Immerwahr. _Aegean Painting in the Bronze Age_. 1990. Also, I don't have any direct references to this close at hand, but I know they exist... look at the "Saffron Gatherers" from Akrotiri on Thera. The wall paintings of this room (Xeste 3?) have been interpreted as a kind of female ritual. The ages of the figures represented in this room vary considerably. Their manner of dress is absolutely stunning here--golden ornaments, a sheer veil, richly patterned textiles. Another article on age which I found very interesting, although based more on hairstyle than clothing--if I remember correctly, is Ellen Davis' "Youth and Age in the Theran Frescoes." _American Journal of Archaeology_ 90 (1986): 399-406. I hope I haven't rambled on too much, but the Aegean Bronze Age is my field. Joan ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 2 Aug 1996 18:50:04 -0400 To: h-costume@andrew.cmu.edu From: bdominey@mindspring.com (Barbara Dominey) Subject: Re: 1950's bra question Responding to the question below: >> 1950s - long line bras. I was VERY young at this time so I have to rely on >> the recollections of others. Some say the 1950 Long lines were fine to >> wear. Others say that they were hell, because they restricted the lower >> ribs and were well boned. Has the long line of today softened from that of >> the 1950s ? Don't know much about modern long line bras, but I wore my mom's circa 1954 bra under her wedding gown (the woman saves _everything_!). I found it snug, but not constricting around the ribcage. It improved my posture immensely, and nipped several inches off my waist. The boning was flexible plastic, the cups underwired and unlined. Barbara Dominey bdominey@mindspring.com ------------------------------ From: COakley@aol.com Date: Fri, 2 Aug 1996 18:53:17 -0400 To: h-costume@andrew.cmu.edu Subject: Hello again! Thanks, Gretchen! This list is an invaluable resource for us lurkers.... especially those of us who are trying *real hard* to get more authentic! Val Winkler, known in SCA as Kate Oakley, and using my lord's address, coakley@aol.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 2 Aug 1996 22:13:53 -0700 To: h-costume@andrew.cmu.edu From: savaskan@electriciti.com (Julie Adams) Subject: Re: Bandana research >Can anyone suggest a source for information about bandanas used on cattle >drives >in the 1800's? ( Size, color, pattern???). A few years ago they had french print pre-analine dye colored 19th c. bandana blanks that you could buy at Stone Mountain in Berkeley CA. They cut the square out, you sew the edges. Sorry I don't have the number for Stone Mountain, but they would be a 510 area code. A solid color silk square is fine too. Julie Adams ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 3 Aug 1996 01:51:12 -0700 (PDT) From: Conrad Hodson To: Beja cc: Mrs C S Yeldham , h-costume@andrew.cmu.edu Subject: Re: Minoan Body Modification On Fri, 2 Aug 1996, Beja wrote: > > If the Minoans used an iron ring about the waist to control the size of what happened about pregnancy? > These are very interesting questions! I meant to ask about where the > idea of Minoan body modification through the use of metal rings came > from when I saw the original post. I'm not aware of any physical > evidence (in the form of skeletal remains) which would support this > hypothesis. Is there any evidence that Minoans had _any_ signifigant number of iron artifacts, let alone waist rings or belts? Have any such things ever been found in a Minoan dig? "Bronze Age", remember? Even among the "iron age" Mediterranean peoples who came after the Minoans, iron remained quite rare for a long time. All too often, the only people with an adequate supply of iron in the Mediterranean ancient world were invaders who brought it in from somewhere else--often in the form of drawn weapons! Even the Romans complained of the difficulties of finding enough iron for arms and armor for the legions, and the Roman Empire had a hell of a lot better access to ore and fuel than the Minoans. > While Minoans (both male and female) are depicted with diminutive > waists, this in itself is not sufficient proof of the practice of waist > training. The whole issue really rests on how accurately the Minoans > represented themselves. We do know the Minoan artists were strongly > influenced by the Egyptians in terms of the cannon of proportions for > the human form, and the different colors used to render gender. So, > the slender waists, broad shoulders, and narrow hips could merely be > a Minoan translation of the Egyptian tradition of human representation. > The problem of the degree of idealization in the rendering of the > human form is a fascinating one. > Good point! For another example, Egyptian female royalty were sculpted alongside their Pharoahs at about 1/3 scale, but nobody really thinks they were that size. To pick a more modern, and subtler, example: look at an ad for a Caribbean cruise ship. Lots of elegant young couples in the pictures--average age is maybe thirty. Look around the deck of a _real_ cruise ship, and the average age is a lot more like sixty. Of course, if Minoans had some sort of fashion or ideal of narrow waists going, people probably belted or bound themselves some way to conform, but this is just guesswork. If anyone knows of any real evidence for iron belts (or iron anything else!) in Minoan Crete I'd be very interested. Conrad Hodson ------------------------------ From: COakley@aol.com Date: Sat, 3 Aug 1996 15:09:36 -0400 To: h-costume@andrew.cmu.edu Subject: (1) blue wedding gowns (2) Pennsic (1) I think I've read that when Theodore Roosevelt's daughter Alice Roosevelt was married at the White House in 1906, she wore a blue gown. Her married name was Longworth, and I recall her being a very respected grande dame in political circles as late as the 1950s or 60s. Anyway, as I remember the story, the gown was a particular color that became known as "Alice Blue" and that was the basis of the song "Alice Blue Gown". Can't find a reference, tho'. (2) It occurs to me that several others on this list may be attending the Pennsic War (Big SCA "convention" in Pennsylvania next week). I'd like to put a few faces with the names that have become so familiar, and if anyone else is interested, I volunteer to try to get a time and place for a get-together and post it on the message boards and in the _Independent_. If you are interested in my doing this, please Email me off-list at Coakley@aol.com by Thursday, Aug 8. I'm leaving for War on Friday morning, and will be camping with the Grand Company of the Peacock next to Midrealm Royal. Val Winkler, aka Lady Catherine ("Kate") Oakley, OW, OPF Barony of Illiton, Middle Kingdom ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 03 Aug 1996 12:06:32 -0800 From: Nick Worthington & Jamie Nikkel To: h-costume@andrew.cmu.edu CC: PKutza@aol.com Subject: RE: 1800's bandanas PKutza@aol.com wrote: >Can anyone suggest a source for information about bandanas used on >cattle drives in the 1800's? ( Size, color, pattern???). > >Thanking you in advance, >PKutza@aol.com >Patricia Kutza You might try "I See by Your Outfit" by Tom Lindmeir and Steve Mount, $16.96 available from: The Cowboy and Gunfighter Museum, 590 Yampa Ave., Craig, CO 81625. This source has been reviewed as "a very well-researched book on the actual clothing and gear used in Wyoming and the Northern Plains in 1870's to 1920's era." I haven't read the book myself and would be interested in the opinion of anyone on the list who has. Jamie Nikkel niknjami@nouveauwest.com ------------------------------ From: TheaG@aol.com Date: Sat, 3 Aug 1996 15:19:11 -0400 To: h-costume@andrew.cmu.edu Subject: Italian Dress Convention in London, June In regards to Liz Jones' post regarding the Italian Dress 1300-1600 convention in London, please post information to the list. I too am interested in Italian fashion of this period and have found it difficult to find sources. I have found the Levi-Pisetzky books but, unfortunately, I do _not_ read or speak Italian so I'm limited to just the pictures. Thea Goldsby ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 3 Aug 1996 12:56:53 -0700 (PDT) From: Katy Bishop Subject: Re: Wedding colors and patterns To: Barbara Wolff cc: h-costume@andrew.cmu.edu On Fri, 2 Aug 1996, Barbara Wolff wrote: > Greetings, fellow list denizens! > > Do any of you know if 19th C. non-white wedding gowns were restricted to > solid colors? Was printed fabric considered proper for second-time-around > nuptials, and they were, what prints were OK (paisley, plaid?)? And if so, > were prints favored by particular segments of society? There is a nice book called " To Love and Cherish: Brides Remembered", by Linda Otto Lipsett (Quilt Digest Press, San Francisco, 1989, ISBN 0-913327-19-0,and 0-913327-18-2. In it are photographs of a scrapbook of swatches, from Vermont, from wedding gowns for a 150 year period, starting in 1788, many of which are non-white. The fabrics are floral prints, checks, plaids, stripes, you name it it's there. Katy Bishop, Vintage Victorian vintage@netcom.com Custom reproduction gowns of the Victorian Era. ------------------------------ From: Jafath@aol.com Date: Sat, 3 Aug 1996 22:53:03 -0400 To: h-costume@andrew.cmu.edu Subject: Re: Wedding colors and patterns In a message dated 96-08-02 17:48:28 EDT, Gretchen wrote > Most people >probably just wore their best dress, whatever that happened to be. For >an example, see Those Happy Golden Years by Laura Ingalls Wilder. She >describes how she picked out the dress to wear for her wedding (I >believe she choose her best dress, which was black, despite "married in >black"--it's been a long time since I read these books, though...) Actually, they were planning to make a special dress for the wedding (don't recall that the color was mentioned), but the date got moved up and as they had just finished making her "good black dress" she announced she would wear that. Ma was rather worried about the "wish yourself back" part, too! But I think the original question was about _second_ marriages, or did I misread it? Jo Anne ------------------------------ From: Jafath@aol.com Date: Sat, 3 Aug 1996 22:53:32 -0400 To: h-costume@andrew.cmu.edu Subject: Re: (fwd) bra query In a message dated 96-08-02 17:48:42 EDT, drea wrote > It went all the way from bust-height (in the back--it was >below the bust in the front) down to below my hips and to the top of my >thighs. > >It had a front-closing steel busk in the front, with some elastic to >either side of the busk, and a flap to either side with hooks on the >center edge that laced over the busk and elastic, drawing the corset >tighter if you wanted. This sounds more like a long-line girdle, still being sold in Sears catalog in the early 60s, as I recall. I wore longline _bras_ up until about the time pantyhose came in -- (one way to date things, I guess!) If you had poor posture it was the only way to wear a strapless bra that would stay up, and if you had a little more midriff than you thought you should have, it camoflaged it, at least to your own satisfaction. I remember even the "perfect figure" types in high school in the late 50s describing certain prom dresses with "you'd have to wear a Merry Widow to wear that" and I think they were referring to the problem of keeping strapless garments up! Jo Anne ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 4 Aug 1996 10:44:31 -0400 (EDT) To: h-costume@andrew.cmu.edu From: "Penny E. Ladnier" Subject: Corsets in the deep south I am looking for someone in the deep south that knows about corsety or makes corsets. I need to talk to someone in the southern part of Mississippi or Alabama, Southeastern Louisana, or Northern Florida. Email me direct. Thanks. Penny E. Ladnier, Virginia Commonwealth University s0peladn@erols.com Http://www.geocities.com/BourbonStreet/2157 Pennies from Heaven, where it's always reigning money,or at least my kids think so. $ $ $ $ $ $ $ $ $ $ $ $ $ $ $ $ $ $ $ $ $ $ $ $ $ $ $ $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ ------------------------------ From: "Donlan, Vincent" To: costume list Subject: Historical Clothing Company Date: Mon, 05 Aug 96 12:39:00 0BS I don't think I'm supposed to pass on information about my own company on this list so would the lady who asked about The Historical Clothing Company e-mail me again as I've lost your return address. Also Carol Kocian. Sorry for being so inept. I'll try harder in future. Sally Ann Chandler ------------------------------ From: "Donlan, Vincent" To: costume list Subject: Jane Ashelford's Book Date: Mon, 05 Aug 96 12:59:00 0BS The book has a chapter about each of the centuries included in those dates and two extras - one about children clothing and one about servants. Each chapter is of similar length and depth although primary sources vary. I'm not aware of much surviving clothing from the sixteenth century in this country so this chapter refers to written sources and paintings. I think it's worth it. Sally Ann Chandler - The Historical Clothing Company ------------------------------ End of h-costume Digest Volume 4 Issue 7 ************************************ From ???@??? Mon Aug 12 07:43:38 1996 >From barbara Sun Aug 11 21:19:33 1996 Received: from [130.149.62.16] (ppphome3.prz.tu-berlin.de) by mail.math.TU-Berlin.DE with SMTP id AA07993 (5.67b8/IDA-1.5 for ); Sun, 11 Aug 1996 21:19:22 +0200 X-Sender: barbara@130.149.12.212 (Unverified) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 11 Aug 1996 20:24:08 -0800 To: barbara@math.tu-berlin.de From: Gretchen M Beck (by way of barbara@math.tu-berlin.de (Barbara Maren Winkler)) Subject: H-costume digest. Volume 4 Number 6 H-costume Digest, Volume 4 Number 6 Today's Topics: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 1 Aug 1996 16:25:22 -0800 From: "Carole Newson-Smith" Subject: Re: Recreating a 1775-85 Pat To: h-costume@andrew.cmu.edu Reply to: RE>Recreating a 1775-85 Patterns of Fashion 1 Gown Carodec@aol.com writes: :Problem 2: Hand. This taffeta is just not as crisp as its 18th century :counterpart. The gown is almost exclusively decorated with pinked :self-fabric, cut on the grain. The Thai silk ravels mercilessly. I could :get around this either by hemming the decorative strips, and doing :without the pinked edges, or by cutting the strips on the bias, which :would alter the coloring of the decoration. : :Any ideas on this? Fray check is inconceivable; it will discolor the :fabric badly, and, I suspect, make the gown more flammable. Is there an :18th century style fix for this problem? Caroline, While my century of interest is a bit earlier, your difficulty in finding a reasonable substitute fabric sounds only too familiar. I am also a fan of Thai Silks. However, another possibility for locating shot silk is to try some of the Indian sari shops. Many have a selection of colors for around $7 or $8 per yard. I purchased some shot silk recently that is blue/purple from a sari shop in the Union City area. (This is in the SF bay area, for those of you who are not Californians.) In re: Fray check. It is nasty stuff, but if you use a toothpick to apply it drop by drop to the raw edge, there is only a little discoloration. The period ways of solving the problem that I know of are three: ignoring it, applying wax (again, drop by drop), and overcasting the edge with needle and thread. Good luck. Carole Newson-Smith (Cordelia Toser in the SCA) ------------------------------ Date: 1 Aug 1996 17:45:03 -0700 From: "Agnes Gawne" Subject: The Art of Dress by Jane As To: h-costume@andrew.cmu.edu The Art of Dress by Jane Ashelford 8/1/96 I too saw a copy of this book. It is wonderful and covers 1500- 1914 with gorgeous photography by Andreas von Einsiedel. I raced down to my local bookseller to ask for a copy of it. Sadly it will not be in the United States until September although it does already appear in _Books in Print_. If there are any other anxious people who want to order it directly from the National Trust for 29.99 pounds sterling you may mail order it by writing to: The National Trust Mail Order Department PO Box 101 Melksham, Wiltshire SN12 8EA I haven't recieved my copy yet so I don't know what the shipping charges will be to get it to Seattle. Good Luck. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 1 Aug 1996 20:27:45 -0500 (CDT) To: h-costume@andrew.cmu.edu From: Nancee Beattie Subject: Pre-corset support In the fourteenth and fifteenth century in Europe, the undergarment was constructed to support the upper torso of women. The shape and tight fit of the kirtle was enough to hold up the breasts, and shape the body into a fashionable silhouette. Yes, wide belts were worn, and may have contributed to slimming the waist, but the undergarment was the primary foundation garment. All this was done without boning. Nancee "It's a terrible thing when one's sad truths and apocalyptic memories are torn apart by the likes of Meredydd" ------------------------------ From: LACONSTANCE@delphi.com Date: Fri, 02 Aug 1996 00:35:35 -0500 (EST) Subject: Wedding colors To: h-costume@andrew.cmu.edu Dear Penny, > donated an ICE BLUE wedding gown dated 1945. The donor said it was popular > after WW2 for brides to wear pastel wedding dresses. Can anyone confirm > this? If so, what other colors were there? I believe this is the case. As an imaginative child reading voraciously anything that came into the house, I remember a "Look" magazine article about an all-pink wedding. This would have been late 40s or early 50s. You might do further research by checking the Reader' Guide to Periodical Literature for the period. Constance La Lena laconstance@delphi.com ------------------------------ From: PKutza@aol.com Date: Fri, 2 Aug 1996 01:51:01 -0400 To: h-costume@andrew.cmu.edu Subject: Bandana research Can you please post this to the costume newsgroup? ______________________________________________________________- Can anyone suggest a source for information about bandanas used on cattle drives in the 1800's? ( Size, color, pattern???). Thanking you in advance, PKutza@aol.com Patricia Kutza ------------------------------ From: Mrs C S Yeldham To: h-costume@andrew.cmu.edu Subject: Jane Ashelford Date: 02 Aug 96 08:58:00 BST Those who have seen the new Ashelford book, could I ask how much of it covers the early period, up to about 1620. If most of it is later, then it is not worth me buying it. Has anyone else found that an indication on a book of 1500 - 1914 usually means a couple of items from the late 16th century, a few more from the 17th, and the majority of the book is later? :-) Caroline ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 2 Aug 1996 18:46:36 +1000 To: mdevogel@postoffice.utas.edu.au (Miesje de Vogel) From: Melissa Hicks Subject: Re: period blues... Cc: h-costume@andrew.cmu.edu Greetings all, I would also like to add my thanks that this list is back. My e-mail inbox has now jumped to over 150 messages a day!! >miesje. >thinking of the most beautiful blue late Tudor dress belonging to meliora... > >mdevogel@postoffice.sandybay.utas.edu.au Unfortunaely I made this dress out of what is called in Australia "Silk Dupion" which is very slubby. I have since been informed that silk in the time of Henry VIII was prized if it was tightly woven and had no slubs. Could someone please direct me towards some references to back this information ?? Mel - who would seriously consider swapping Miesje the Tudor for Miesje's White and Blue Elizabethan (based on Elizabeth R). *sigh* If only I was a size 12 too. Meliora@macquarie.matra.com.au ------------------------------ To: "h-costume@andrew.cmu.edu" Subject: Blue weddings Date: Fri, 02 Aug 96 08:54:57 -0500 From: "Augusta, Karen" -- [ From: Augusta, Karen * EMC.Ver #2.5.02 ] -- Penny, I have my mother's 1948 wedding dress - it is grey silk, designed by Ceil Chapman. I asked my Mom about colored gowns from that time (she was a high fashion illustrator, and had started out as a designer before switching to illustration in the late 30's). She said formal white gowns just after the war were hard to come by, and that alot of brides wore suits and fancy daywear. As for colors, while in art school around 1938, my Mom designed a totally pink bridal party, the bride's gown being blush pink - this was quite avant-guarde for conservative Boston, and she won the yearly design prize at the school......I asked about color after WWII, and she remembers pinks and shades of golden yellow (did not remember ice blue in particular). Hope this helps. Karen Augusta oldlace@sover.net "A source told me that the ICE BLUE wedding gowns were a fad after WWW2. Other colors during this "fad" time were SHELL PINK and LIGHT YELLOW for wedding gowns. Does anyone know someone who was married at this time to ask , "Was this a 'fad". My source said the association of the color pink for girls and blue for boys was not established until after this war." ------------------------------ From: MDSDMB@aol.com Date: Fri, 2 Aug 1996 09:08:13 -0400 To: h-costume@andrew.cmu.edu Subject: Fraying This will require some testing, but ONE of these methods should work. For each test, take a piece (scrap) of the fabric in question. Mark the piece according to what you're doing (starch, sizing, etc). Paint starch on one piece, spray artificial starch (sizing) on another, spray hairspray on another. Let dry thoroughly, note any color changes. Cut/pink/slash, according to what you're trying to achieve. Note results. A silk that has a heavier thread one way than the other is going to be harder to stabilize. You may have to resort to a varnish (on the wrong side of the fabric). An 1845 sewing manual says to paint the edge to be cut with gum. That may mean shellac, but it may not. Carol Kocian - can you check the 18th C dresses at your museum and see if there's residue on the wrong side of the pinked edges? Hope this helps, Mary Denise Smith ----------------------------- From: "Carol Kocian" To: h-costume@andrew.cmu.edu Date: Fri, 2 Aug 1996 09:26:46 -500 Subject: Re: Recreating a 1775-85 Pat > : The Thai silk ravels mercilessly. I could > :get around this either by hemming the decorative strips, and doing > :without the pinked edges, or by cutting the strips on the bias, which > :would alter the coloring of the decoration. > The period ways of solving the problem that I know of are three: > ignoring it, applying wax (again, drop by drop), and overcasting the > edge with needle and thread. I had heard that pinking tools were heated before use, and that caused the pinked edge to hold together better. I don't know if that helps, since the silks were different back then, and less likely to ravel in the first place. It may be worth an experiment. I thought I remembered some self-fabric ruching having a turned edge (or being made out of a tube of fabric) rather than pinked. I think it was in the Kyoto book, only what I remember was on short jackets and not gowns. Perhaps this was done because a jacket would see more use than a gown, if I'm even remembering it correctly! -Carol ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 2 Aug 1996 06:32:54 -0700 To: h-costume@andrew.cmu.edu From: Stella Nemeth Subject: The wearing of caps iteach@slip.net (Elizabeth Pruyn)wrote > >I'm so glad the list is back! I've been missing my daily fix. Yes. Me too. > >To help start the ball rolling, I have a question to ask. In the >Regency, when would a married woman put on a cap? At a certain age? At >marriage? Or the birth of the first child? I've either heard of >documentation for later (1860's) or in fiction. Does anyone have any >quotes and/or descriptions ofthe caps? I don't have the answer to your question, but something odd just occurred to me when I was reading your question. Is it possible that a woman DIDN'T "put on a cap" during the Regency? Is it possible that the women who wore caps where of a certain age, and wore them because they had always worn them, and that young women never put the caps on at all, even when they grew older themselves? I'm thinking about the difference between what I wore to work around the house, and what the women who were older than me wore. My mother's generation all wore housedresses. I've never owned one. My sister, a decade older than me, wore something like a housedress, but not exactly. Could caps have been the 19th Century equivalent. Worn only by older women because they had also worn them as young women? Stella s.nemeth@ix.netcom.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 2 Aug 1996 08:51:29 -0600 To: h-costume@andrew.cmu.edu From: bjwolff@facstaff.wisc.edu (Barbara Wolff) Subject: Wedding colors and patterns Greetings, fellow list denizens! Do any of you know if 19th C. non-white wedding gowns were restricted to solid colors? Was printed fabric considered proper for second-time-around nuptials, and they were, what prints were OK (paisley, plaid?)? And if so, were prints favored by particular segments of society? Thanks for sating my curiousity! Yours -- Barbara Wolff bjwolff@facstaff.wisc.edu ____________________________________ Barbara Wolff Office of News and Public Affairs University of Wisconsin-Madison 28 Bascom Hall 500 Lincoln Drive Madison, WI 53706 Ph: 608.262.8292 Fax: 608.262.2331 Email: babs@macc.wisc.edu ------------------------------ From: dlxibm!Liz_Jones@smtpgwy Date: Fri, 02 Aug 96 10:48:39 EST To: uupsi9!h-costume@andrew.cmu.edu Cc: uupsi9!vukso001@tc.umn.edu Subject: Italian Dress Convention in London, June Hello, all. I have been away from the list for a while, and glad to see that I didn't miss much due to it's short hiatus. I remember hearing about the Italian Dress 1300-1600 convention, but didn't know where and when it was. I saw a posting from June from Dawn Hudson-Van Beek, and realized I certainly wouldn't get to go, since it was in London, and had already happened. My plea is this: is there any material available from this wonderful event? My focus is primarily Italian fashion from 1450-1580, and I would welcome any text or contacts that were available. Also on this note, I will ask if anyone knows whether Rosita Levi-Pisetzky, author of the venerable TOME on Italian dress (5 volumes: Storia del Costume in Italia, Milano: Istituto Editoriale Italiano, 1964-1969) is still alive? I have been patiently xeroxing this work and working on a translation for my own needs, but it is very slow going. I am wondering if there are any AUTHORITIES who focus on Italian costume that I should know about. I speak and read Italian, so communication is not an issue, but unfortunately, I was not into costume research when I lived there, so missed wonderful opportunities to connect with people. Any domestic or international words of wisdom for me that came out of this conference? Sources that I could purchase? Fuel for the cerebral and digital fire? Responses, as always welcome! Liz Jones ljones@datalogix.com (don't use "reply", forward or address fresh instead -this will be fixed soon!) ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 2 Aug 1996 10:38:52 -0500 (CDT) To: h-costume@andrew.cmu.edu From: Joe Lichtenstein Subject: h-costumed dolls I'm not a doll collector, but since I love historic costume, I like dolls in historic costume. I thought some others on this list might be interested as well. I have two dolls from Avon's Fashion of American Times porcelain doll collection for sale. 1) Victorian doll in royal blue velvet-type skirt and satin jacket with muff and matching hat.(1987) 2) Roaring Twenties doll in black satin dress with feather boa, long pearls, and headband.(1989) Both dolls are approximately 9" tall and have original stands included. Both in excellent condition and in original boxes. Will sell for $30 each or $50 for the set. Please e-mail me if interested........ Thanks, Lezlie owd@netins.net ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 2 Aug 1996 10:58:05 -0700 From: gwjchris@ix.netcom.com (Bill and Glenna Christen) Subject: Re: Bandana research To: h-costume@andrew.cmu.edu Cc: pkutza@aol.com Patricia... You wrote... >Can anyone suggest a source for information about bandanas used on cattle drive s >in the 1800's? ( Size, color, pattern???). During the 1860's men's handkerchiefs and bandana were approximately 18" x 18" suuare. If not plain white, or a solid color, they were mulit-colored...not the two-color red/white and blue/white of today. They could be plaid, checked, paisly-design, or any other print/weave design common to the mid 19th c. cloth. Cotton was the most common material, with linen and silk being used for handkerchiefs (but hardly practical when in need of washing after being soiled). I know of no commercial reproduction source, but cotton handkerchiefs would be easily made by sewing a simple hem on a square of fabric. The above are opinions based on reading I have done while researching men's clothing in the 1860's. I have no solid refeence sources at hand, but will look for some. Hopefully, others on the list may be able to add other insight. For late 19th c. perhaps there are surviving examples at a museum out west. I will look at the Cowboy Hall of Fame when I go back to OKC on business on Monday. Bill Christen gwjchris@ix.netcom.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 2 Aug 1996 15:00:25 -0500 To: h-costume@andrew.cmu.edu From: rchs@crisny.org (Lorraine E. Weiss) Subject: American Caps; Dutch costumes I received my first digest from this list today and, behold, you all were discussing the main subject I was going to ask about -- caps. (1) I am working on costumes for a first-person interpretive tour set in 1855. Female subjects are the cook, parlor maid, laundress and 20-year-old daughter in a wealthy, urban household. We have no evidence that the servants received clothes from their employers -- the account books show that many of them did not stay long as was the norm. I need to make caps for the 3 servants. I assume the unmarried daughter would not have worn one during the day. I have looked at Amazon, Past Patterns, Rainments and the "Workwomen's Guide." I think that I need caps suitable for the late 40s and early 50s given the economic level of these women. Can anyone offer detailed descriptions or sources? I've tried looking at caps from the "Guide" and real caps from the 1830s-40s, but I don't think my millinery experiments have quite hit the mark yet. (2) Educators at another site are looking for patterns for children's Dutch costumes (1600s). Again, I know of the sources above, but does anyone know of others? They would most likely be interested in any full-scale patterns. Since I've apparently entered in the middle of the cap conversation and some of this must be a repeat, please e-mail me directly if that is more appropriate. Thank you! Lorraine Weiss Education Director Rensselaer County Historical Society Troy, NY (rchs@crisny.org) ----------------------------- End of h-costume Digest Volume 4 Issue 6 ************************************ From ???@??? Mon Aug 12 07:43:41 1996 >From barbara Sun Aug 11 21:19:44 1996 Received: from [130.149.62.16] (ppphome3.prz.tu-berlin.de) by mail.math.TU-Berlin.DE with SMTP id AA07997 (5.67b8/IDA-1.5 for ); Sun, 11 Aug 1996 21:19:35 +0200 X-Sender: barbara@130.149.12.212 (Unverified) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 11 Aug 1996 20:24:19 -0800 To: barbara@math.tu-berlin.de From: Gretchen M Beck (by way of barbara@math.tu-berlin.de (Barbara Maren Winkler)) Subject: H-costume digest. Volume 4 Number 5 H-costume Digest, Volume 4 Number 5 Today's Topics: Visiting London Corsets Colours Books Re: Wearing of Caps Re: Visiting London Mid 16th C Irish Women's "Chemise" Re: 18thC stays in a museum (fwd) bra query Piecing Re: web pages dress closure around 1500 Blue weddings and a trip ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Donlan, Vincent" To: costume list Subject: Visiting London Date: Thu, 01 Aug 96 13:50:00 0BS To LSCHWARZKO I hope you enjoy your visit to London and Cologne. I can't say anything about Cologne as I'm due to visit later in the year so I'll be interested in the answers to your request too. In London, you probably already know about the Victoria and Albert Museum in Kensington (don't understimate the amount of time you'll need to get a good look). Should you have a longer period of time the place to go is the National Trust's Museum of Childhood at Sudbury Hall in Derbyshire. Best costume museums also include Platt Hall in Manchester and the Costume Museum in Bath but all of these (except the V&A) would take a full day to get to and look round. You probably knew that! Sally Ann Chandler, The Historical Clothing Company ------------------------------ From: "Donlan, Vincent" To: costume list Subject: Corsets Date: Thu, 01 Aug 96 13:50:00 0BS Carol Kocian had some very interesting information about corsets. Can I ask: Not only were they American or European, but if European, which country were they from? Do you know any more history of those particular corsets? Which museum are they in? How was the leather binding attached? Was it a stab stitch? Was there a central busk? If so, was it wood? Thanks everso much, Sally Ann Chandler, The Historical Clothing Company ------------------------------ From: "Donlan, Vincent" To: costume list Subject: Colours Date: Thu, 01 Aug 96 13:50:00 0BS I referred recently to the supposed meanings of colours in the Elizabethan court in relation to the meaning of the wearing of white. The book from which this came is by Sicile, Herald of Alphonso V, King of Aragon, Le Blason des Coulleurs en Armes Livrees et Deuises, of 1526. This was translated by Richard Robinson as ' A Rare True and Proper Blazon of Coloures and Ensignes Military with Theyre Peculiar Signification in 1583 and is quoted in M.C. Linthicum - Costume in the Drama of Shakespeare and His Contemporaries, Oxford 1936. Other colours referred to include: black - grief and constancy grey - despair ash - trouble and sadness yellow - hope, joy, magnaminity yellow/red - deception russett - prudence green - love and joy turquoise - jealousy red - courage Much of which goes without saying! Sally Ann Chandler, The Historical Clothing Company ------------------------------ From: "Donlan, Vincent" To: costume list Subject: Books Date: Thu, 01 Aug 96 13:50:00 0BS The book to which I referred recently, The Art of Dress 1500 - 1914, is published by National Trust Enterprises Ltd. of 36, Queen Anne's Gate, London SW1H 9AS, England. The ISBN is 07078 0185 0 Sally Ann Chandler, The Historical Clothing Company ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 01 Aug 1996 08:17:48 -0800 From: "R.L. Shep" To: DGC3%Rates%FAR@go50.comp.pge.com CC: h-costume@andrew.cmu.edu Subject: Re: Wearing of Caps DGC3%Rates%FAR@go50.comp.pge.com wrote: > > I too am delighted to have the list back again -- thank you, Gretchen! > > Wearing of caps is a delightful period touch often ignored by modern reinactor s. > Offhand, I think all women (i.e., no longer girls) wore caps in 16-18th C., > except brides, queens being crowned, etc. The Regency convention of "going int o > caps" when one was heading toward old-maid status may owe a lot to Georgette > Heyer. Jane Austen writes (when of spinster age), "I have made myself some cap s > to wear of an evening, and they save me a world of torment as to head-dressing ." > Certainly much is made of Regency brides taking precedence, and going into cap s > would be a sign of matronly dignity. Jane Austen's novels do indicate that > different dress and behavior was expected in girls who were Out and Not Yet Ou t. > The caps would be a similar sign for gentlemen to avoid pursuit of a lovely > young bride. (Caps--dainty white muslin creations-- are not to be confused wit h > those delightfully silly evening hats worn by Regency fashion plates.) > > Later sources show Victorian caps for young matrons, widows, invalids. Caps di e > out around 1860 except for the elderly, and I think Joan Severa notes they are > rather scare by 1850 in _Dressed for the Photographer_. > > Being of a certain age myself, I am also interested in sources for patterns. > Anything other that the wonderful "Workwomen's Guide" of 1836? Having made > myself a few caps, I quite agree with Miss Austen. > > Danine > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Danine Cozzens Internet: dgc3@pge.com > Phone: 415/973-1388 > Pacific Gas and Electric Company San Francisco, CA > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > ----------------------[Reply - Original Message]---------------------- > > To help start the ball rolling, I have a question to ask. In the > Regency, when would a married woman put on a cap? At a certain age? At > marriage? Or the birth of the first child? I've either heard of > documentation for later (1860's) or in fiction. Does anyone have any > quotes and/or descriptions ofthe caps? > > Thanks and welcome back, > Elizabeth > > Elizabeth Pruyn iteach@slip.net Oakland, CA If you are interested in caps you might try The Ladies Self Instructor in Millinery & Mantua Making, etc. By millinery they mean caps and although there are no 'patterns' there are ilustrations and instructions. Available from Fred Struthers at fsbks@mcn.org I believe it is $14.95 + $2 shipping ~!~ R.L. Shep ------------------------------ From: RContreras@aol.com Date: Thu, 1 Aug 1996 11:26:29 -0400 To: V.Donlan@shu.ac.uk, h-costume@andrew.cmu.edu Subject: Re: Visiting London Don't miss the Museum of London. Mostly stuff dredged out of the Thames, but it can't be beat for details like buckles, straps and other accessories that haven't survived elsewhere. RC in Atlanta ------------------------------ To: costume list From: Stacey Weinberger at WADSWORTH Date: 1 Aug 96 8:38:00 Subject: Mid 16th C Irish Women's "Chemise" New Text Item: Books I have a friend who is not on line who is interested in making an historical 16th mid century Irish "chemise" (sorry, don't know the term--not my area). Please recommend patterns or web sites that might describe how to make one or supply the instructions! You can email me directly. Thank you very much! Stacey stacey_weinberger@wadsworth.com ------------------------------ From: "Carol Kocian" To: h-costume@andrew.cmu.edu Date: Thu, 1 Aug 1996 12:17:25 -500 Subject: Re: 18thC stays in a museum Sally Ann Chandler asked, > Not only were they American or European, but if European, which > country were they from? They were American. > Do you know any more history of those particular corsets? One set was possibly worn for someone's wedding. I think it was the blue set. The original owners of some stays are known. History info was minimal, at best. > How was the leather binding attached? Was it a stab stitch? It looks like the front edge was sewn right-sides-together, and then turned and whipstitched on the back side. I couldn't tell what stitch was used for the front side. Perhaps when I go back I can see if there is a worn or damaged spot where I can see the stitching. I would guess it was done with a backstitch, since that's such a common stitch for the time. > Was there a central busk? If so, was it wood? There were no pockets for busks. Busks for that era generally were slipped down between the stays and the shift when they were worn. There are a couple of elaborately carved busks in the collection. -Carol ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 01 Aug 1996 13:40:32 -0500 From: babs@funhouse.com (Babs Woods) To: h-costume@andrew.cmu.edu Subject: (fwd) bra query Hi all, Someone read my Bra and Underwire FAQs and had some questions that I am not qualified to answer, so I thought I'd forward this to the list and see what people could tell both of us. A number of people on this list have in fact contributed to the FAQs so I know someone should be able to answer this, just not me. Thanks in advance. > From: Debbie > Subject: underwire bra etc > Cc: babs@funhouse.com > > Hi Babs > > I am new the net, and I am still trying to find my way around this infinite > universe. Please tell me if I am not doing this the way people expect ! > > You have clearly put a lot of work into your bra material - I guess you make > them professionally ? (For those who don't know: I don't. I just have an impossible size.) > I am a social historian, and I am looking at the way we have treated our > bodies over the past few hundred years. Can you help me with two questions > ? I really would appreciate the benefit of your wisdom and experience with > historical perspectives. > > 1920s - Were the bust flatteners generally worn by the fashionable woman ? > Many sources indicate that only the trendies wore them, with many women not > wearing a bra at all. I have seen in a museum a real horror. Dated 1926 it > is deep pink, quite deep, button front fastening with a lace up back. > There is NO bust darting and is boned. A bone goes vertically over each > nipple - so you could be really flat ! I have some photographs of the > period showing a (fairly rich) couple on honeymoon. One photo show the wife > in casual clothes on picnic - she has a definite bust. Another photo shows > her in evening dress. The shiny material reflects the camera flash, and > shows she is now *flat*. This must have been uncomfortable ? > > 1950s - long line bras. I was VERY young at this time so I have to rely on > the recollections of others. Some say the 1950 Long lines were fine to > wear. Others say that they were hell, because they restricted the lower > ribs and were well boned. Has the long line of today softened from that of > the 1950s ? > > > Do let me know your comments > > Deb -babs "Excuse me, while I dance a little jig of despair." - hadley@ics.uci.edu (Ted Hadley) ------------------------------ From: Mrs C S Yeldham To: h-costume@andrew.cmu.edu Subject: Piecing Date: 01 Aug 96 14:07:00 BST 'Piecing' of cloth was common in the 16th century, and I understand earlier, often called 'wheelpiece' from the shape. I have been told some types of cloth were only 22 inches wide, so you would have to piece. Corsets as separate garments are different from stiffening the upper garment itself (at least I find them different to wear). A 'pair of bodies' can be either, and I have understood that the need to stiffen starts in the early 16th century, and the separate corset emerges as needed about mid-century - perhaps from wearing a pair of bodies under an English gown. Looking earlier, the stiffened wide belts of the late 15th century would perform part of this purpose. I have also been told that cloth wraps around the breasts were used in the late 15th century, which were presumably much like the ones used in the 1920s. There are various period terms for the 'venetian' type of garment, which Cunningham covers, tho' I'm not sure the terminology is quite as precise as Thea seems to indicate. Some of the terminology depends not on the garment, but on the person wearing it. For example, 'slops' corresponds to her description of gathered at the waist and at the knee, but were worn by the lower working class of men, such as sailors. The Martin Frobisher portrait, I think shows him wearing these (in leather or a very stiff fabric) and seems to show him as a man of action, sailor and explorer. I would rather call them venetians than knickers! Do we have to resubscribe? If the Minoans used an iron ring about the waist to control the size of waist (women and men?), what happened about pregnancy? Did the articifically small waist only apply to young women, or those who had chosen chastity, or did the women have to strive to recover the small waist? Caroline ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 1 Aug 1996 14:31:18 -0400 (EDT) From: aleed To: Historic Costume Subject: Re: web pages I have two related pages up: one on making an elizabethan corset at http://www.dnaco.net/~aleed/corsets/ and another, more general page on elizabethan costume with information on how to make bumrolls, chemises and farthingales and links to other Elizabethan costume resources at http://www.dnaco.net/~aleed/corsets/general.html Drea ---------------------------- We've secretly replaced their dilithium crystals with new folgers crystals. Now let's watch them go to warp. ------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 1 Aug 1996 13:10:57 -1000 From: Lisa Leong To: h-costume@andrew.cmu.edu Subject: dress closure around 1500 Hi all, I've been looking at photographs of _The Lady With the Unicorn_ tapestry series which were woven around 1500. In the one called _Smell_ one of the ladies is wearing a gown that shows buttons from the hip to the waist (and maybe up to the armhole, her arm covers it). The picture shows that the buttonholes are in the skirt back so the back edge is lapped over the front. The buttoned edge of the sleeve is lapped in the more usual (to my modern mind :>) front over back way. Does anyone know if back-over-front was the accepted technique at the time? Or of other sources I could look for info/documentation? I've found very few sources that show fastenings. thanks, lisa ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 1 Aug 1996 19:22:28 -0400 (EDT) To: h-costume@andrew.cmu.edu From: "Penny E. Ladnier" Subject: Blue weddings and a trip A source told me that the ICE BLUE wedding gowns were a fad after WWW2. Other colors during this "fad" time were SHELL PINK and LIGHT YELLOW for wedding gowns. Does anyone know someone who was married at this time to ask, "Was this a 'fad". My source said the association of the color pink for girls and blue for boys was not established until after this war. Other news I heard today: The Costume Society of America is sponsoring a study tour to Thailand and Loas. The trip will be from Dec. 26, 1996 to Jan. 13, 1997. The tour will focus on traditional dress forms and textile production, as well as contempary interpretations. The tour leaders are Dale Carolyn Gluckman, Ass. Curator of Costumes and Textiles at the Los Angeles County Museum of Art and an experienced Asian traveler, and Patricia Cheesman Naenna, an Englishwoman who has lived in Loas and now lives in Chiang Mai, Thailand. If interested call 800-CSA-9447 or Email: 71554.3201@compuserve.com That's all folks!!! Penny E. Ladnier, Virginia Commonwealth University s0peladn@erols.com Http://www.geocities.com/BourbonStreet/2157 Pennies from Heaven, where it's always reigning money,or at least my kids think so. $ $ $ $ $ $ $ $ $ $ $ $ $ $ $ $ $ $ $ $ $ $ $ $ $ $ $ $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ ------------------------------ End of h-costume Digest Volume 4 Issue 5 ************************************ From ???@??? Wed Aug 14 09:55:03 1996 Received: from PO8.ANDREW.CMU.EDU by mail.math.TU-Berlin.DE with SMTP id AA21306 (5.67b8/IDA-1.5 for ); Wed, 14 Aug 1996 00:37:17 +0200 Received: (from postman@localhost) by po8.andrew.cmu.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3) id SAA11316; Tue, 13 Aug 1996 18:29:54 -0400 Received: via switchmail for +dist+/afs/andrew.cmu.edu/usr7/grm/Miscell/h-costume-digest.dl@andrew.cmu.edu; Tue, 13 Aug 1996 18:29:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: from pcs26.andrew.cmu.edu via qmail ID ; Tue, 13 Aug 1996 18:29:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: from pcs26.andrew.cmu.edu via qmail ID ; Tue, 13 Aug 1996 18:28:58 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mms.4.170.Jun.27.1996.16.34.50.sun4.41.MacMail.5.2.CUILIB.3.45.SNAP.NOT.LINKED.pcs26.andrew.cmu.edu.sun4m.412 via MS.5.6.pcs26.andrew.cmu.edu.sun4_41; Tue, 13 Aug 1996 18:28:58 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: Date: Tue, 13 Aug 1996 18:28:58 -0400 (EDT) From: Gretchen M Beck To: +dist+/afs/andrew.cmu.edu/usr7/grm/Miscell/h-costume-digest.dl@andrew.cmu.edu Subject: H-costume digest. Volume 4 Number 11 Reply-To: h-costume@andrew.cmu.edu H-costume Digest, Volume 4 Number 11 Today's Topics: Re: Janet Arnold Re: Janet Arnold Historical Costume Bulletin Board Advertisement - Maryland Area Event 18th Century stays?? Mens pantaloons ca. 1800-1820 18th cent. nursing stays Re: Mens pantaloons ca. 1800-1820 Re: Mens pantaloons ca. 1800-1820 Re: Janet Arnold ACW Ballgown Fabric HELP - Collars for an "O" Bodice Re: 18th Century stays?? museum exhibit review Re[2]: Janet Arnold RE: HELP - Collars for an "O" Bodice RE: ACW ball gown fabric (with a caboose) about the Janet Arnold article Janet Arnold Article Re: Janet Arnold Article Re: Janet Arnold Article ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 9 Aug 1996 18:07:23 -0400 (EDT) From: Gretchen M Beck To: Historical Costume Mailing List Subject: Re: Janet Arnold Cc: Excerpts from internet.other.h-costume: 8-Aug-96 Janet Arnold by Mrs C S Yeldham@ggr.co.u > I've been looking through the h-costume archives (isn't filing boring!) and > noticed that someone said she had copies of Janet Arnold's articles on > smocks and shirts from Waffen und Kostume. Does anyone still have these > and would they be kind enough to send them to me in the UK? > Me, too, please! (in the US, though, not the UK). I used to have a copy of this article, but it got misplaced. I've been kicking myself about it ever since.... Thanks! toodles, gretchen ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 10 Aug 1996 12:53:46 +1000 To: Gretchen M Beck From: Melissa Hicks Subject: Re: Janet Arnold Cc: Historical Costume Mailing List Gtreetings all, I usually hate "me too" but in this case, Would anyone be kind enough to send these articles "Down Under" ?? Melissa - in Canberra, Australia meliora@macquarie.matra.com.au At 06:07 PM 9/08/96 -0400, Gretchen M Beck wrote: >Excerpts from internet.other.h-costume: 8-Aug-96 Janet Arnold by Mrs C S >Yeldham@ggr.co.u >> I've been looking through the h-costume archives (isn't filing boring!) and >> noticed that someone said she had copies of Janet Arnold's articles on >> smocks and shirts from Waffen und Kostume. Does anyone still have these >> and would they be kind enough to send them to me in the UK? >> > >Me, too, please! (in the US, though, not the UK). I used to have a >copy of this article, but it got misplaced. I've been kicking myself >about it ever since.... > >Thanks! > >toodles, gretchen > ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 10 Aug 1996 00:44:30 -0400 (EDT) From: aleed To: h-costume@andrew.cmu.edu Subject: Historical Costume Bulletin Board This is to tell you about a historic costume bulletin board I just stuck up on my site; not to take the place of this list, or course, but for people who aren't on it or have never even heard of it. I had to set the board up for a site I maintain, figured what the heck, and set one up at my site as well. I guess we'll see how it goes! It's at http://www.dnaco.net/~aleed/corsets/bbs/ I'm going to be gone for the next week, so hopefully it won't crash. Drea ------------------------------- We've secretly replaced their dilithium crystals with new folgers crystals. Now let's watch them go to warp. ------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 10 Aug 1996 09:17:28 -0400 (EDT) To: h-costume@andrew.cmu.edu From: aquazoo@dcez.com (Ed Safford & Carol Kocian) Subject: Advertisement - Maryland Area Event Announcing ... Wicked Wench Enterprises, Inc. Located just west of Baltimore, Maryland in Historic Ellicott City, the Wicked Wench in located in a circa 1780 log cabin. We are working with Historic Ellicott City to bring 18th century living history to the area, but most importantly, we have a retail store! GRAND OPENING! To those people who can be in the Baltimore, Maryland area on Thursday, August 22, 1996; Wicked Wench will be hosting Pyrates Royale in an evening of Grog'n, Eat'n & Wench'n. This will be the first theme weekend to celebrate the GRAND OPENING of the Wicked Wench. The event will be held at PJ's Bar & Grill on Main Street in Historic Ellicott City from 7:00 until we get closed down. Dress: Eclectic Pyratic - There will be reenactors there from a variety of time periods in a variety of kits. The goal is to develop a shore leave atmosphere. Authenticity appreciated but not mandatory. The general publick will be there as well as some of the land pyrates from down the hill at the local tattoo parlor (Ellicott City's Biker Community may make an appearance). Entertainment - Pyrates Royale will perform. If you have not seen them before, they are some of the finest Pyrates to ever plunder the Maryland Renaissance Festival or the British Embassy. Also - Body Parts will be there. They specialize in false scars, stab wounds and body painting (false tattoos). And they don't wear stupid hair. You'll also find the Wicked Wench Ship's Store where you can pick up those pieces of your rig that you may not have with you. We will have plenty of silk scarves, eye patches, mugs and the like... *Special Note*: Pat Patterson (owner of PJ's) has been kind enough to assist us by providing a location to have this event, some advertising and a special menu for the evening (Food and drinks only. You have to bring your own wench.) -- so come hungry and thirsty! We would like to thank him for his generosity for this opportunity. All are welcome - There is no cover charge. Wicked Wench, Pyrates Royale and Body Parts are doing this with the hope that you will thoroughly enjoy yourselves. It promises to be a rollicking time. Remember the pyrate sign and counter sign: Sign: How many R's are there in ARRR...RH? Counter Sign: All of 'm!! Hope to see you there. Wicked Wench, the store, is currently open Fridays, Saturdays and Sundays from 10:00 'til 6:00. We'll be open on Mondays starting in September. We're working out of a rather small space, so if you're looking for something specific, please give us a call before you come out to see if we have it in stock, or to see how long it will be 'til we get it. For directions, contact nancym@ima.org or wkdwench@pop.erols.com. Wicked Wench Enterprises, Inc. Located in Thomas Issaac's Log Cabin at the top of Ellicot City P.O. Box 836 Ellicott City, MD 21041-0836 P: (410) 418-4911 F: (410) 418-4912 ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 10 Aug 1996 09:37:53 -0400 To: h-costume@andrew.cmu.edu From: "Janice E. Gee" Subject: 18th Century stays?? I'm a non-sewing(just about), history-loving lurker who has enjoyed reading all of your posts. Now I hope that you can help me with a problem: My 16 year old daughter volunteers at Brandywine Battlefield Park in Chadds Ford, Pennsylvania. For her revolutionary war times outfit, she would like to have stays (we already have the rest of the outfit). I believe buying ready-made stays are out of the question for us. What sources can I turn to to find patterns or kits? We have the Amazon Pickle general catalog, but it seems that the stays (or corsets) are mostly Victorian period. Other than that, I'm not sure where to turn. Any ideas or suggestions for us? Janice Gee ------------------------------ From: Mickie Erickson To: "'h-costume@andrew.cmu.edu'" Subject: Mens pantaloons ca. 1800-1820 Date: Sun, 11 Aug 96 08:22:00 CDT "Cut of Men's Clothes" is outstanding. Sadly, it's nearly unavailable. I think I photocopied most of my college library's copy.:) The pantaloons you are referencing are evolved from a military style; "laterally opening" overalls were very popular for light cavalry troops & officers during the Nap. Wars (at least in france).... The buttons allowed the overalls to be pulled on over more expensive breeches when one was working in a 'soiled' environment. The overalls became more common (being rather comfy, I'm sure) and the buttons gradually lost their function (opening only at the top & bottom). They would have originally been made without a fall, I believe (part of reason for the side-opening).... One also runs into personal preferences here, tho. (Oh, those wacky regency bucks. Or Incroyables...) If you want a quick, cheap, detailed look at the military sources, try "Napoleon's Line Chasseurs" &/or "Napoleon's Hussars", from Osprey books. The illustrations are excellent. (If your local Library or bookstore don't have them, try a Wargaming store.) Good luck! Tom@Mickie's workstation ------------------------------ From: "Keith & Heather Schenk" To: h-costume@andrew.cmu.edu Date: Sun, 11 Aug 1996 11:24:15 -0500 Subject: 18th cent. nursing stays First of all, I hope this is going to the right place. My husband signed me up for the list, so I'm not sure if there is a different address to send posts to, appologies in advance. I'm interested in finding out about 18th cent. nursing stays. A friend of mine saw a pair in some museum in England, (I'm not sure which one) but I'd never heard of them before. They were labeled as nursing stays. I had asked another friend to do some research while down in Williamsburg, he could find nothing. Only a reference to a French pair that had lacing 'flaps' where the nipples would go, and the fellow he spoke to believed that was more of a sexual freedom- thing as opposed to a nursing set up. I REALLY want to make a pair, but I would like some documentation and drawings or pictures or anything. I feel as if I've run out of places to look. If anyone has information of any kind, or has some suggestions please write to me. You can post to the list, (I'm always lurking!) or to me directly at kschenk@fast.net Thank you all in advance! Heather kschenk@fast.net ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 11 Aug 1996 16:57:20 -0800 From: "R.L. Shep" To: Mickie Erickson CC: "'h-costume@andrew.cmu.edu'" Subject: Re: Mens pantaloons ca. 1800-1820 Mickie Erickson wrote: > > "Cut of Men's Clothes" is outstanding. Sadly, it's nearly unavailable. > I think I photocopied most of my college library's copy.:) > The pantaloons you are referencing are evolved from a military style; > "laterally opening" overalls were very popular for light cavalry troops & > officers during the Nap. Wars (at least in france).... The buttons > allowed the overalls to be pulled on over more expensive breeches when > one was working in a 'soiled' environment. The overalls became more > common (being rather comfy, I'm sure) and the buttons gradually lost > their function (opening only at the top & bottom). > They would have originally been made without a fall, I believe (part of > the reason for the side-opening).... One also runs into personal > preferences here, tho. (Oh, those wacky regency bucks. Or > Incroyables...) > If you want a quick, cheap, detailed look at the military sources, try > "Napoleon's Line Chasseurs" &/or "Napoleon's Hussars", from Osprey books. > The illustrations are excellent. (If your local Library or bookstore > don't have them, try a Wargaming store.) > Good luck! > Tom@Mickie's workstation There are a number of patterns for men's Pantaloons, breeches and pants ( for this period) in Edward Giles: THE ART OF CUTING & History of English Costume. The reprint of this is available from fsbks@mcn.org priced at $19.95+$2.50 shipping. R.L. Shep htp://www.mcn.org/R/RAGS ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 11 Aug 1996 17:05:43 -0800 From: "R.L. Shep" To: Frances Grimble CC: h-costume@andrew.cmu.edu Subject: Re: [Fwd: Re: Men=?iso-8859-1?Q?=B9s pantaloons 1800 - 1820]?=s pantalo ons 1800 - 1820] Frances Grimble wrote: > > Susannah, > > I know of two patterns for pantaloons: > > Norah Waugh's _The Cut of Men's Clothes 1600-1900_ (my edition is > Theatre Arts Books, 1964) contains a pattern taken from a 1795 pair of > pantaloons. Waugh discusses fabrics. > > R. L. Shep's 1991 _Late Georgian Costume_ contains a reprint of J. > Wyatt's 1822 _The Tailor's Friendly Instructor_, which in turn contains > instructions and illustrations for drafting pantaloons. > > Hope this helps. > > Fran Grimble YES - she is right about Late Georgian Costume. It sells for $18.95 + 2.50 shipping and is sold by fsbks@mcn.org R.L. Shep http://www.mcn.org/R/RAGS ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 Aug 1996 12:42:59 +1000 To: h-costume@andrew.cmu.edu From: mdevogel@postoffice.utas.edu.au (Miesje de Vogel) Subject: Re: Janet Arnold >Excerpts from internet.other.h-costume: 8-Aug-96 Janet Arnold by Mrs C S >Yeldham@ggr.co.u >> I've been looking through the h-costume archives (isn't filing boring!) and >> noticed that someone said she had copies of Janet Arnold's articles on >> smocks and shirts from Waffen und Kostume. Does anyone still have these >> and would they be kind enough to send them to me in the UK? >> > >Me, too, please! (in the US, though, not the UK). I used to have a >copy of this article, but it got misplaced. I've been kicking myself >about it ever since.... > And me too please (in Australia) - I've never heard of it but it sounds like a holy grail... miesje mdevogel@postoffice.sandybay.utas.edu.au ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 Aug 1996 09:45:47 -0400 From: Dale Loberger To: h-costume@andrew.cmu.edu Subject: ACW Ballgown Fabric Would it be suitable to use heavy slubbed silk taffetas such as shantung or doupioni for a mature lady's Civil War era ballgown? She would like a dark, somewhat bright color such as royal blue or hunter green trimmed with black lace and black silk ribbons. I have some beautiful samples, but I am not certain if the slubbed silk would be approriate. I know slubbed fabrics (eg. linen) were considered "flawed", but didn't know if the same was true for silks. -- Susannah Eanes, Mantua Maker and Fine Tailoring (Susan B. Loberger, Susannah's Heirloom Limited) ------------------------------ From: Terry Wass To: "'h-costume@andrew.cmu.edu'" Subject: HELP - Collars for an "O" Bodice Date: Mon, 12 Aug 1996 09:58:45 -0400 All: I spent my weekend making new "O" bodices, with bishop sleeves, for my daughters. What a way for a father to spend a weekend. I now need to make them collars .... and based on what I've read in "Who Wore What" (Juanita Leisch) and in "The Everyday Clothing of Rural Women at the Time of the Civil War" (Ary VanSteamburg) I'd like them to be sewn in, but able to be removed for cleaning. They will be of a light colored and sturdy fabric which will stand up to laundering. Since my daughters are 12 & 13, I'd like them to be fold down, less than 1" in width. My problem ... I have no idea as to how to construct these collars !! Any and all help would be appreciated. Terry Wass ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 Aug 1996 10:02:01 -0400 From: Dale Loberger To: "Janice E. Gee" Cc: h-costume@andrew.cmu.edu Subject: Re: 18th Century stays?? Janice E. Gee wrote: > What sources can I turn to to find patterns or kits? > James Burnely, Mercer 319 Oak Tree Road Williamsburg, VA 23188 (804) 253-1644 carries the JP Ryan 18th c. strappless stays sizes 6-20 for $12.00. This is the most reasonable pattern I have seen for this article. Using basket reed instead of the feather boning is more economical and more authentic as well. You will want to use metal stays at the seams. -- Susannah Eanes, Mantua Maker and Fine Tailoring (Susan B. Loberger for Susannah's Heirloom Limited) ------------------------------ From: TheaG@aol.com Date: Mon, 12 Aug 1996 10:48:25 -0400 To: h-costume@andrew.cmu.edu Subject: museum exhibit review If you happen to be in the Kansas City (KS) area, consider a stop by the Wyandotte County Historical Society & Museum. Through the end of October they have a small exhibit titled "1860-1960: One Hundred Years of Fashion." There are approximately seven garments from pre-1900 and three from the 1920's; the balance are from the 1960's. A few garments are in glass cases but most are on mannequins and can be seen fairly closely. Garments range from good to excellent condition; most are womens'; there are about three men's suits. Museum information: Wyandotte County Historical Museum 631 N. 126th St. Bonner Springs, KS (913) 721-1078 Tues-Sat 10am-5pm; Sun 1-5pm Free; donation requested. The museum is located near the Agricultural Hall of Fame, for which there are more signs along the road. Thea Goldsby ------------------------------ To: h-costume From: Stacey Weinberger at WADSWORTH Date: 12 Aug 96 9:19:00 Subject: Re[2]: Janet Arnold New Text Item: Re: Janet Arnold I also would like a copy of the article. Thank you! Stacey stacey_weinberger@wadsworth.com ------------------------------ From: Terry Wass To: "'h-costume-send'" Subject: RE: HELP - Collars for an "O" Bodice Date: Mon, 12 Aug 1996 12:43:04 -0400 Fran: >Did you read my earlier post to Susannah about lace mourning collars?< No, at the time I didn't realize that I was going to make collars ... always a day late and a dollar short . I would prefer (I think) not using lace collars. My wife and children are portraying a western Virginia lower middle class family, and most of the CDVs from this area show a solid light colored (white ?) collar. Does this seem right ? >Who Wore What is a badly researched book that does not live up to its claim to be a statistical study. It judges what age groups wore without knowing the actual ages of any photographic subjects, or their economic status and other factors the book claims to study. It misuses and misspells common costume terms. Etc.< Thanks for the information. As I extract information from this source, I'll keep this in mind. >For period photos, I'd recommend Joan Severa's _Dressed for the Photographer ....< I have a copy of this, I'll look for the other references. I would be interested in your evaluation of "The Everyday Clothing of Rural Women in the Civil War," by Ary VanSteamburg. Have you read it ? Thanks for the information !! Terry Wass tmwass@main.citynet.net (home) atlwrd1@peabody.sct.ucarb.com (office) ---------- ------------------------------ From: LuAnnMason@aol.com Date: Mon, 12 Aug 1996 13:40:33 -0400 To: h-costume@andrew.cmu.edu (h-costume) Subject: RE: ACW ball gown fabric (with a caboose) From: LuAnnMason To: dloberger@esri.com In a message dated 96-08-12 10:14:34 EDT, you write: > >Would it be suitable to use heavy slubbed silk taffetas such as shantung >or doupioni for a mature lady's Civil War era ballgown? She would like >a dark, somewhat bright color such as royal blue or hunter green trimmed >with black lace and black silk ribbons. I have some beautiful samples, >but I am not certain if the slubbed silk would be approriate. I know >slubbed fabrics (eg. linen) were considered "flawed", but didn't know if >the same was true for silks. > >-- >Susannah Eanes, As I understand it, dupioni and other slubbed silks are not appropriate for the ACW for just the reason that you stated--the slubbing that we like was considered a flaw. On another note, I've heard from two terribly reliable sources two entirely different things about polished cotton/chintz. One lady said that this fabric was considered a lining fabric only, and would not have been used as the fashion fabric of ACW dresses. Another authority exclaimed that polished cotton would have been used as a cheap alternative to silk for evening wear--the shine of the fabric in the candlelight without the expense. Any opinions? Regards-- LuAnn ------------------------------ From: "Ella Lynoure Rajamaki" To: h-costume@andrew.cmu.edu Date: Mon, 12 Aug 1996 20:59:31 +2 Subject: about the Janet Arnold article > New Text Item: Re: Janet Arnold > I also would like a copy of the article. > > Thank you! After reading several "me2" posts, I though maybe it would be a good idea to post the article on the list to avoid more "me2"s. Assuming of course that it is okie with the author of the article... Lynoure Ella Lynoure Rajamaeki lynoure@clinet.fi ---------------------------------------------------------------- a small chaotic multi-era creature. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 Aug 1996 14:15:43 -0700 (PDT) To: h-costume@andrew.cmu.edu (h-costume) From: Erin Harvey Moody Subject: Janet Arnold Article In the original post, I believe someone was looking for the Janet Arnold shirts and smocks article published in Waffen und Kostumkunde. No one seems to be responding to the "who has this in the first place", all I see are continuing requests for the article. I do not have a copy on hand but probably can obtain one. However, does anyone remember when this might have been published? My research indicates that Waffen.... goes back as far as 1897. I do not have the resources to search via author not the time to search back 100 years (okay Arnold isnt that old but....), unless some other research guru out there can dig this one up, I would need more info from someone here to give me a starting point. Please email me or the list and I will keep the list updated on what I can find. Erin Moody erin1@uclink4.berkeley.edu ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 Aug 1996 15:44:42 -0700 (PDT) From: "B.M. O'Brien" To: Erin Harvey Moody Cc: h-costume Subject: Re: Janet Arnold Article I am not guaranteeing anything (including Denise's willingness to copy articles), but here is the original post about this article from Jan 1994.... ******************************************** From=20DENISE@HARV-EHS.mhs.harvard.edu Mon Aug 12 15:43:08 1996 Date: Tue, 04 Jan 1994 10:04:30 -0400 (EDT) From: DENISE@HARV-EHS.mhs.harvard.edu To: h-costume@andrew.cmu.edu Subject: List of Articles Here is the first of several lists of articles I have available for anyone interested. If you wish to receive a copy of any of the articles, please send me your request VIA US MAIL, with one $.29 stamp for each 8 pages of articles. If the article is less than 8 pages, just send me a SASE. Send requests to: Denise Zaccagnino Harvard University Environmental Health & Safety 46 Oxford Street Cambridge, MA 02138 Please allow a reasonable time for mailing -- remember that I can only do so much xeroxing and only have so much time to do this. COSTUMING ARTICLES "Elizabethan and Jacobean Smocks and Shirts," by Janet Arnold. Waffen-und Kostumkunde, Pt. 2 (1977), pp. 89-110. "Three examples of late sixteenth and early seventeenth centuryneckwear," by Janet Arnold. Waffen-und Kostumkunde, Pt. 2(1973), pp. 109-124. "Two Early Seventeenth Century Fencing Doublets," by Janet Arnold. Waffen-und Kostumkunde, Pt. 2 (1979), pp. 107-20 "A Mantua c. 1708=A99 Clive House Museu, College Hill, Shrewsbury," by Janet Arnold. Costume #4, 1970, pp. 26-31. "A Court Mantua of c. 1740," by Janet Arnold. Costume #6, 1972,pp. 48-52. "A Pink Domino c. 1760=A970 at the Victoria and Albert Museum," by Janet Arnold. Costume #3, 1969, pp. 31-34. "Female Costume in Aesthetic Movement of the 1870 and 1880s," by Leonee Ormond. Costume #2, 1968, pp. 33-38. "The Medieval 'Corset'," by Kay Staniland. Costume #3, 1969, pp. 10-13. "Mary Tudor's Wardrome," by Alison J. Carter. Costume #18, 1984,pp. 9-28. "Reflections on the Polish Nobleman's Attire in the Sarmatian Tradition," by George E. Borchard. Costume #4, 1970, pp. 13-22. "Bejewelled Fur Tippets and the Palatine Fashion," by Francis Weiss. Costume #4, 1970, pp. 37-43. "Burgundian Court Costume from a Norwich Tapestry," by Lesley Parker. Costume #5, 1971, pp. 14-18. "Sumptuary Legislation and English Costume, an Attempt to Assess the Effect of the Act of 1337," by Clifford R. Bell and Evelyn Ruse. Costume #6, 1972, pp. 22-31. "A Fifteenth Century Pattern for 'Chausses'," by Christina Hawkins. Costume #6, 1972, pp. 84-85. "Vestments from the Robinson Collection at the Whitworth Gallery, Manchester," by Joan Allgrove. Costume #6, 1972, pp. 76-79. "Scottish Portraits as a Source for the Costume Historian," by Rosalind K. Marshall. Costume #15, 1981, pp. 67-70. "Prince Edward's Clothes," by J. L. Nevinson. Costume #2, 1968, pp. 3-8. "Castle Howard: A Costume Museum in a Stately Home," by Cecile Hummel. Costume #2, 1968, pp. 30-32. "Manuscript Sources for the History of Medieval Costume," by Janet Backhouse. Costume #?, 19??, pp. 9-14. "The Rates of the London Custom House in 1550," by Joan Edwards and J. L. Nevinson. Costume #4, 1770, pp. 3-12. "Hosiery: A Bibliography," by Madeleine Ginsburg. Costume #2, 1968, pp. 39-45. **************************************************************** On Mon, 12 Aug 1996, Erin Harvey Moody wrote: > In the original post, I believe someone was looking for the Janet Arnold > shirts and smocks article published in Waffen und Kostumkunde. No one se= ems > to be responding to the "who has this in the first place", all I see are > continuing requests for the article. I do not have a copy on hand but > probably can obtain one. However, does anyone remember when this might h= ave > been published? My research indicates that Waffen.... goes back as far a= s > 1897. I do not have the resources to search via author not the time to > search back 100 years (okay Arnold isnt that old but....), unless some ot= her > research guru out there can dig this one up, I would need more info from > someone here to give me a starting point. > > Please email me or the list and I will keep the list updated on what I ca= n find. > > Erin Moody > erin1@uclink4.berkeley.edu > > ------------------------------ To: h-costume%andrew.cmu.edu@roris.anca.gov.au (h-costume) Subject: Re: Janet Arnold Article From: AWILSON@anca.gov.au (Wilson, Annette) Date: 13 Aug 96 09:08:51 EDT The article in question is apparently "Elizabethan and Jacobean Smocks and Shirts," by Janet Arnold. Waffen-und Kostumkunde, Pt. 2 (1977), pp. 89-110. Hope this helps someone find it. Annette Wilson Email: awilson@anca.gov.au ------------------------------ End of h-costume Digest Volume 4 Issue 11 ************************************ From ???@??? Wed Aug 14 09:55:08 1996 Received: from PO9.ANDREW.CMU.EDU by mail.math.TU-Berlin.DE with SMTP id AA21374 (5.67b8/IDA-1.5 for ); Wed, 14 Aug 1996 01:00:28 +0200 Received: (from postman@localhost) by po9.andrew.cmu.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3) id SAA11499; Tue, 13 Aug 1996 18:45:28 -0400 Received: via switchmail for +dist+/afs/andrew.cmu.edu/usr7/grm/Miscell/h-costume-digest.dl@andrew.cmu.edu; Tue, 13 Aug 1996 18:45:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: from pcs26.andrew.cmu.edu via qmail ID ; Tue, 13 Aug 1996 18:44:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from pcs26.andrew.cmu.edu via qmail ID ; Tue, 13 Aug 1996 18:43:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mms.4.170.Jun.27.1996.16.34.50.sun4.41.MacMail.5.2.CUILIB.3.45.SNAP.NOT.LINKED.pcs26.andrew.cmu.edu.sun4m.412 via MS.5.6.pcs26.andrew.cmu.edu.sun4_41; Tue, 13 Aug 1996 18:43:58 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: Date: Tue, 13 Aug 1996 18:43:58 -0400 (EDT) From: Gretchen M Beck To: +dist+/afs/andrew.cmu.edu/usr7/grm/Miscell/h-costume-digest.dl@andrew.cmu.edu Subject: H-costume digest. Volume 4 Number 12 Reply-To: h-costume@andrew.cmu.edu H-costume Digest, Volume 4 Number 12 Today's Topics: "O" bodices? Bare breasts in 18th century? Re: ACW Ballgown Fabric RE: ACW ball gown fabric (with a caboose) Janet Arnold Re: Janet Arnold Cree Indian hairstyle Renaissance Sources Hist Clo Co Cut & Construction of Men's Clothes New Costume Magazine Re: Cree Indian hairstyle Angela - Cree Hair Styles Re: Bare breasts in 18th century? Re: Bare breasts in 18th century? 19th century womens laws Re: H-costume digest. Volume 4 Number 2 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 12 Aug 1996 17:44:17 -0700 To: h-costume@andrew.cmu.edu From: Margo Anderson Subject: "O" bodices? WHEW!!! This post caught my eye, since I am currently at work on a costume based on the dresses described in the sadomasochistic classic, "The Story of O", complete with leather collar. So, when I saw that the writer was making them for his 12 and 13 year old daughters!!!!!!! Well, luckily I calmed down and read the post more carefully before I called CPS! ;-) Just out of curiosity, why are they called "O Bodices"? Margo Anderson ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 Aug 1996 17:53:06 -0700 To: h-costume@andrew.cmu.edu From: Margo Anderson Subject: Bare breasts in 18th century? I've read references to very high fashion ladies in the 18th century wearing gowns that exposed the breasts. Can anyone refer me to documentation for this? If so, how were these gowns cut? was the top of the bodice below the breast, or just underneath the nipple (which seems as if it would be more flattering than the first option)? In a historical novel I read, which seems to be very well researched in other areas, the King of France's mistress has accesorised one of these revealing gowns by wearing jeweled swans in her pierced nipples. Does anyone know if this was actually a period practice? Not that I'm willing to go quite that far for the sake of a good costume- I'm just curious. :) Margo Anderson ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 Aug 1996 00:52:54 -0700 From: gwjchris@ix.netcom.com (Bill and Glenna Christen) Subject: Re: ACW Ballgown Fabric To: h-costume@andrew.cmu.edu You wrote: >Would it be suitable to use heavy slubbed silk taffetas such as >shantung or doupioni for a mature lady's Civil War era ballgown? I wish slubbed silks were correct since they are more commonly available and generally less expensive than silk taffetas which are correct. Smooth, shiny material was the desired fabric of the time, perhaps for the reflective quality of that finish, or simply because that was the fashion. When choosing a color for a mature woman, darker colors seem to have been more "proper." White, ivory, pastels, etc. were considered youthful colors, with white and ivory particularly appropriate for a young lady's first season "out" in society. These shades stand out better in gas & lamp lit ballrooms. Married women where expected to fade more into the background allowing the young, single women to shine. Glenna Jo (planning a raspberry/plum silk taffetta ball dress) Christen gwjchris@ix.netcom.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 Aug 1996 01:00:17 -0700 From: gwjchris@ix.netcom.com (Bill and Glenna Christen) Subject: RE: ACW ball gown fabric (with a caboose) To: h-costume@andrew.cmu.edu You wrote: >Another authority exclaimed that polished cotton would have been used >as a cheap alternative to silk for evening wear--the shine of the >fabric in the candlelight without the expense. I'd love to see the documentation for this. If it really was done, it would save a lot of reenactors spending big bucks on silk or spending a lot fewer dollars on really sleezy looking polyester satin (I've never seen evidence that *silk* satin was being used for ball dresses during the CW era.) Glenna Jo Christen gwjchris@ix.netcom.com ------------------------------ From: Mrs C S Yeldham To: h-costume@andrew.cmu.edu Subject: Janet Arnold Date: 13 Aug 96 09:58:00 BST Several people have replied about my query on the Janet Arnold articles. Thanks! I can get any reprints from Costume, as I am a member of the Society, and am happy to copy them and send them off to those who want them (within reason!). However I do have a problem with sending money to the States (its complicated and expensive from the UK) and think it would be much easier to arrange a swop. So, would anyone who has the Arnold articles *not published* in Costume (the 3 16th/17th century ones would be useful) like anything copied from Costume? It would take a little time as I would have to order back copies. Caroline ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 Aug 1996 00:04:07 GMT From: db-cos@westmore.demon.co.uk (David Brewer) To: h-costume@andrew.cmu.edu Subject: Re: Janet Arnold In message mdevogel@postoffice.utas.edu .au (Miesje de Vogel) writes: > >Excerpts from internet.other.h-costume: 8-Aug-96 Janet Arnold by Mrs C S > >Yeldham@ggr.co.u > >> I've been looking through the h-costume archives (isn't filing boring!) and > >> noticed that someone said she had copies of Janet Arnold's articles on > >> smocks and shirts from Waffen und Kostume. Does anyone still have these > >> and would they be kind enough to send them to me in the UK? Just for the record, what time period / geographical area do these cover? -- David Brewer ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 Aug 1996 09:02:02 -0600 (MDT) To: h-costume@andrew.cmu.edu From: gottfred@agt.net (Jeff Gottfred) Subject: Cree Indian hairstyle I have been puzzled by the following descriptions of the hairstyles of Cree Indian women before 1821. If anyone can figure out how to do the styles described without benefit of hairpins and other modern aids, I would appreciate some pointers. (Liberal use of grease or similar concoctions is okay.) The following quotes all seem to describe the same basic arrangement: from 1775: "The women wear their hair of a great length, both behind and before, dividing it on the forehead and at the back of the head, and collecting the hair of each side into a roll, which is fastened above the ear; and this roll...is covered with a piece of skin [leather]...These rolls, with their coverings, resemble a pair of large horns." from 1801: "Their hair is divided on the crown, and tied behind, or sometimes fastened in large knots over the ears." from 1808: "Their hair is generally parted on the crown, and fastened behind each ear in large knots, from which are suspended bunches of blue beads, or other ingenious work of their own." It's not entirely clear what's being described here but Princess Leia comes to mind. Anyone have some thoughts? --Angela Gottfred gottfred@agt.net ------------------------------ From: "Donlan, Vincent" To: costume list Subject: Renaissance Sources Date: Mon, 12 Aug 96 15:02:00 0BS Can I suggest the many woodcuts, books of hours etc. from the end of the 15th century, and perhaps even earlier. We all know people today who dress 20+ years behind the times due to economic pressures or social norms. Take away the extravagant headdresses etc. and I think you'll have a good idea of an English peasant in renaissance times. Many of these sources show working people anyway. There are a good many books about medieval women, some of which are available from 'Past Times' which show a wealth of styles. I think these would be available in your neck of the woods. Sally Ann Chandler Historical Clothing Company s.a.chandler@shu.ac.uk ------------------------------ From: "Donlan, Vincent" To: costume list Subject: Hist Clo Co Date: Mon, 12 Aug 96 15:07:00 0BS Paul (ref Dickie) who wanted to know about the Historical Clothing Company and striped sateen, contact me on s.a.chandler@shu.ac.uk with your address and I'll send you details. Also Maryanne Filanowski. Thanks. Sally Ann Chandler ------------------------------ From: "Donlan, Vincent" To: costume list Subject: Cut & Construction of Men's Clothes Date: Tue, 13 Aug 96 12:52:00 0BS As far as I'm aware, both the Men's and Women's versions of the book by Norah Waugh are now back in print, published by Faber & Faber in London at about ?55 each. Expensive but worth every penny. Sally Ann Chandler Historical Clothing Company s.a.chandler@shu.ac.uk ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 Aug 1996 10:14:29 -0800 From: "R.L. Shep" To: h-costume Subject: New Costume Magazine In looking through the current Costume Society of America Newsletter, I find the following notice: Costume & Dressmaker, The Magazine for The Serious Costumer. CSA member Mary Denise Smith announces this new publication dedicated to the deatils of costume study and production. She draws on 20 years of costuming in living history museums, historic re-enactments, fantasy and science fiction. CSA member interested in publishing articles on the history of technology pertaining to costume, costume construction, book and video product reviews or other costume topics are invited to contact Ms. Smith. 4900 19th St. #298. Boulder, CO 80304. 303-546-6223. Regular publication of this bi-monthly ($18 per subscription) begins this month. I don't know anything more about it than that, but considering the dearth of good magazines in the costume area some of you might be interested in looking into it. ~!~ R.L. Shep ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 Aug 1996 11:12:12 -0700 From: Christine Gilbreath To: h-costume@andrew.cmu.edu Subject: Re: Cree Indian hairstyle Hello, I'm not an expert on Cree hairstyles, but I don't see why they couldn't have used fasteners to hold the hair. I can put all of my hair into a twisted 'bun' and hold it in place all day long with a single 'stick'. I use wooden sticks shaped for the purpose, they may have done someting similar. Your one quote does say they were 'fastened' above the ear. Just a thought.... Christy Jeff Gottfred wrote: > > I have been puzzled by the following descriptions of the hairstyles of Cree > Indian women before 1821. If anyone can figure out how to do the styles > described without benefit of hairpins and other modern aids, I > would appreciate some pointers. (Liberal use of grease or similar > concoctions is okay.) The following quotes all seem to describe the same > basic arrangement: > from 1775: "The women wear their hair of a great length, both behind and > before, dividing it on the forehead and at the back of the head, and > collecting the hair of each side into a roll, which is fastened above the > ear; and this roll...is covered with a piece of skin [leather]...These > rolls, with their coverings, > resemble a pair of large horns." > from 1801: "Their hair is divided on the crown, and tied behind, or > sometimes fastened in large knots over the ears." > from 1808: "Their hair is generally parted on the crown, and fastened behind > each ear in large knots, from which are suspended bunches of blue beads, or > other ingenious work of their own." > > It's not entirely clear what's being described here but Princess Leia comes > to mind. Anyone have some thoughts? ------------------------------ From: BJHILL@STTHOMAS.EDU Date: Tue, 13 Aug 1996 13:32:48 -0600 (CST) Subject: Angela - Cree Hair Styles To: h-costume@andrew.cmu.edu Angela, I don't believe I can answer your question on how. But I do believe I can offer you a few suggestions on where to look for the answer. Those places are as follows: The Art of Hair Works: Hair Braiding and Jewelry of Sentiment Mark Campbell Lacis Publications; 1993 Beautiful Braids Janssen Lincolnwood Ill; Publications Int'l; 1990 isbn 0881769258 Fashions in Hair: The first 5000 years Richard Corson London; Peter Owen; 1980 isbn 0720632838 There are also a number of books of artists paintings of the period that I would be happy to forward to you. Please let me know if you would like this list. Yours Sincerely, brian hill bjhill@stthomas.edu ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 Aug 1996 18:55:10 +0100 To: h-costume@andrew.cmu.edu From: Mary Subject: Re: Bare breasts in 18th century? At , Margo Anderson wrote: >At 17:53 12/08/96 -0700, you wrote: >>I've read references to very high fashion ladies in the 18th century wearing >>gowns that exposed the breasts... >> >>...In a historical novel I read, which seems to be very well researched in >>other areas, the King of France's mistress has accesorised one of these >>revealing gowns by wearing jeweled swans in her pierced nipples. Does >>anyone know if this was actually a period practice? I have read there was a vogue for Victorian young ladies to have their nipples pierced, not from contemporary documents though. I have also read this practice was the invention of someone writing in the 1950s, the same person, I believe, who was responsible for the naming of a notorious piercing after Queen Victoria's husband. Does any one have any documentation that would put this body ornamentation in western society during the nineteenth century or before? The jewelled swans sound wonderful. --- Mary ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 Aug 1996 13:02:32 -0700 From: lindam@kindra-78.Eng.Sun.COM (Linda McAllister) To: h-costume@andrew.cmu.edu, temple@globalnet.co.uk Subject: Re: Bare breasts in 18th century? > At , Margo Anderson wrote: > >At 17:53 12/08/96 -0700, you wrote: > >>I've read references to very high fashion ladies in the 18th century wearing > >>gowns that exposed the breasts... > >> > >>...In a historical novel I read, which seems to be very well researched in > >>other areas, the King of France's mistress has accesorised one of these > >>revealing gowns by wearing jeweled swans in her pierced nipples. Does > >>anyone know if this was actually a period practice? > > > I have read there was a vogue for Victorian young ladies to have their > nipples pierced, not from contemporary documents though. I have also read > this practice was the invention of someone writing in the 1950s, the same > person, I believe, who was responsible for the naming of a notorious > piercing after Queen Victoria's husband. > > Does any one have any documentation that would put this body ornamentation > in western society during the nineteenth century or before? The only mention I've seen is in a mystery, "The Sleepers of Erin" by Jonathan Gash: the antique-dealer protagonist is asked to appraise a set of "earrings" that he explains are actually nipple-rings. I don't think there'd be much documentation in the mainstream sources, since although they did know about sex (in all its various facets), they didn't talk about it in polite society. Victorian pornography might mention body piercing: see Stephen Marcus (I'm working without a library here!) "The Other Victorians" for a list of possible sources - a number were reprinted in the early 1970s. Linda ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 Aug 1996 14:33:56 -0700 From: Christine Gilbreath To: h-costume@andrew.cmu.edu Subject: 19th century womens laws I though this might be of interest to women reinactors. English Laws for Women in the Nineteenth Century (1854): a machine-readable transcription Norton, Caroline (1808-1877) http://www.indiana.edu/~letrs/vwwp/norton/englaw.html ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 Aug 1996 21:29:57 +0100 To: h-costume@andrew.cmu.edu From: Mike Percival Subject: Re: H-costume digest. Volume 4 Number 2 In message , Gretchen M Beck writes >H-costume Digest, Volume 4 Number 2 Hello everyone, Good to be back. This plea sort of fits in with the current discussion on Costume Books. Earlier this year a UK branch of the ICG (International Costume Guild) was set up and at one of the committee meetings held since it was suggested that it might be an idea to try to compile a selective bibliography of costume books that costumers have found particularly useful when making costumes. The ultimate aim is to have a list which costumers can refer to when they need it. It was suggested that I might like to have a go at doing this partly because I am constantly on the lookout for good books on costume and costume related subjects and partly because I have access to this list. This bibliography is going to cover a number of areas of history that I have never touched - my main area of interest being Medieval. Now I know I could look in the bibliography of any enclyclopaedia on costume but that will only tell the me books the writer has found useful - and I need to know the books that costume makers have found useful. At the moment I am on the lookout for any books that show good (ie as correct as possible) details on costume construction throughout the ages including types of fabric used, colours etc. I need to know Title; author; publisher; date of publication; ISBN number. If you can also give me a brief summary of what the book covers I would be grateful. In order to save space on the list for discussion please email these to me direct. Many thanks - oh yes there is one other point - apologies if this has been covered before. There is in existance a portrait of Princess Mary (as in Henry VIII's sister) and her husband Charles Brandon (Duke of Suffolk). All the references that I have found on it place this painting as being done in 1515 - supposedly around the time they were married. Herbert Norris (Costume and Fashion: The Tudors Vol 1) disputes this date (going by the style of dress shown in the painting) and I must admit that I was surprised for the same reason - and I know of other costumers who are of a similar opinion. Unfortunately I do not know the artist (it's not given in any of the books that show the painting), but the princess is wearing what appears to be a black Tudor gown embellished with a great many pearls and a French Hood. Does anyone have any views on this. Maggie ------------------------------ End of h-costume Digest Volume 4 Issue 12 ************************************ From ???@??? Tue Aug 20 09:42:26 1996 Received: from PO7.ANDREW.CMU.EDU by mail.math.TU-Berlin.DE with SMTP id AA20584 (5.67b8/IDA-1.5 for ); Tue, 20 Aug 1996 01:46:37 +0200 Received: (from postman@localhost) by po7.andrew.cmu.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3) id SAA20448; Mon, 19 Aug 1996 18:48:00 -0400 Received: via switchmail for +dist+/afs/andrew.cmu.edu/usr7/grm/Miscell/h-costume-digest.dl@andrew.cmu.edu; Mon, 19 Aug 1996 18:47:58 -0400 (EDT) Received: from pcs36.andrew.cmu.edu via qmail ID ; Mon, 19 Aug 1996 18:46:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: from pcs36.andrew.cmu.edu via qmail ID ; Mon, 19 Aug 1996 18:45:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mms.4.170.Jun.27.1996.16.34.50.sun4.41.MacMail.5.2.CUILIB.3.45.SNAP.NOT.LINKED.pcs36.andrew.cmu.edu.sun4m.412 via MS.5.6.pcs36.andrew.cmu.edu.sun4_41; Mon, 19 Aug 1996 18:45:18 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: Date: Mon, 19 Aug 1996 18:45:18 -0400 (EDT) From: Gretchen M Beck To: +dist+/afs/andrew.cmu.edu/usr7/grm/Miscell/h-costume-digest.dl@andrew.cmu.edu Subject: H-costume digest. Volume 4 Number 13 Reply-To: h-costume@andrew.cmu.edu H-costume Digest, Volume 4 Number 13 Today's Topics: Re: H-costume digest. Volume 4 Number 11 Old Irish Dress looking for fabric... Re: H-costume digest. Volume 4 Number 9 Non-costume info sought Ribbon class The Historical Clothing Company UK Branch of the ICG British Suppliers Re: Cree Indian hairstyle Re: Subject: metal eyelet holes Silk Lace/Bobbin Lacemaking Help with Past Pattern Corset Re: Janet Arnold article web pages Re: looking for fabric... Re[2]: Janet Arnold article ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 14 Aug 1996 10:32:10 +1000 To: h-costume@andrew.cmu.edu From: s-randles@adfa.oz.au (Sarah Randles) Subject: Re: H-costume digest. Volume 4 Number 11 >Subject: Re: Janet Arnold Melissa and Miesje (and other Australian readers), Waffen- und Kostumkunde is in the National Library of Australia, although it doesn't seem to be complete. I'll check with the ABN for other holdings when I'm over there this afternoon. Miesje, I'll bring you a copy of the articles mentioned when I visit. Sarah *********************************************************************** Sarah Randles email: s-randles@adfa.oz.au English Department phone: 06 268 8898 University College ADFA fax: 06 268 8899 Canberra ACT 2601 AUSTRALIA ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 Aug 1996 20:53:53 -0400 To: ches@io.com From: corbie@radix.net (Corbie) Subject: Old Irish Dress Cc: h-costume@andrew.cmu.edu You write, "The years are from 700ad to 1000ad. Ireland Well off human males that own farms and animals. Two men's tunics with decorative trim is the goal. "I need to know what patterns and colors best suite a man with a 64 inch waist that is slightly over 6' tall for the type of outfit in that time period and area mentioned above. The second male is his second and stands at 5'7". They both have red hair. The only source they have is an old publication from the S.C.A. "They do not want to be so accurate as to outshine the Crown. They want elegant and simple. If you can help please post to me privately as I do not want to start an authenticity fight." ================ The information I've been able to find indicate that the Irish in this era were wearing long 'leine' (a word that now means 'shirt,' but the garments referred to over time have evolved dramatically) that looks very much like a floor-length t-tunic with narrow sleeves (sometimes sleeveless) and a skirt that flares out from the waist, possibly with a large collar that can be brought over the head like a collar. Cuchullain is described as wearing a white leine ('bright'), as are other nobles, with a 'brat' (cloak) over it. The leine is floor-length, and probably would look to you or me like a long night-shirt, except that it would be embroidered. It was often white (I think this showed that you were wealthy enough that you didn't care if it got dirty), but could be other bright colors as well. The leine would be worn long, but gathered up into the belt so it was knee-length for active pursuits (hunting, fighting). The brat would be woven of finely woven wool, and would (according to the legends -- they might have been exaggerating a little) have been long enough to wrap around the body five times. Bright colors were quite popular. You fold the brat several times and then pin it on the breast with the usual penannular brooch. The brat often had fancy embroidery and/or fringes on it, or card-woven borders with or without fringes woven in. Some brats show several heavy fringes around the neck area, as well, which could be the result of folding the brat several times. Lower classes (servants, soldiers) wore bias-cut trews, either knee- or ankle-length, in some cases covering the feet or with a stirrup going under the arch of the foot. The trews were quite fitted. For an upper garment, they would wear a leather jacket, fitted close to the body with tight sleeves. These clothes were usually of drab colors -- dark blue, black. Saffron leines were sometimes worn by the lower classes. Leines and trews don't seem to have been worn together, nor would one wear trews with a brat. Sometimes a short cloak (hip-length, semi-circle, of wool or leather) would be worn with the trews. I am a bit surprised that the nobles didn't wear trews for horseback riding (at least in the illustrations we have), but perhaps that's due to not having enough data, or because the more important nobles rode in chariots and didn't need trews. (I suppose you could make the brat of tartan, with a fringe, but I have no idea how period that would be. You could interpret the description of a cloak being 'variegated' as meaning tartan, but we really don't know at all. The Book of Kells shows stripes and spots and various embroidered patterns.) Later in this period, the brat refers to a woven cloak that looks for all the world like a large sheepskin to me. After being woven, the nap is drawn out and curled (?). I've found (but not yet ordered from Fingerhut, of all places) a woolen rug from Greece that gives a similar appearance. This cloak was so water-repellent that travellers could sleep in the open, wrapped in their brat, and not worry too much about the weather. These cloaks were exported to Europe sometimes, too, I believe. Belts and shoes: woven belts (the word for these is 'crios', and they're still worn -- over a Victorian-style vest and trousers -- in some areas of Ireland) or leather would be equally appropriate. Shoes: Hard to say. The Book of Kells shows people wearing an ankle-boot sort of thing, but also shows people barefoot. There's a shoe type that I'm using that looks rather like a moccasin -- there's a picture in the Dunlevy book, on p. 19. Other shoes can be found on p. 86, but of somewhat later period. The lower classes seem to have gone barefoot. Hope that helps... Corbie (Thanks to all on H-Costume who pointed me toward these resources! Please let me know of any addenda / corrections I should add.) (Mairead Dunlevy, 'Dress in Ireland') (H.F. McClintock, 'Old Irish Dress') (Thanks to all who pointed me toward these resources! Please let me know of any addenda / corrections I should add.) @__________________________________________ @Q: "How many Vorlons does it take to screw in a lightbulb?" @A: "Yes." @ @Mara Riley, Corbie@radix.net or Kevin Riley, Lindo@radix.net ------------------------------ From: Morigianna@aol.com Date: Tue, 13 Aug 1996 21:22:05 -0400 To: h-costume@andrew.cmu.edu Subject: looking for fabric... I am tring to find a fabric I have seen but cant fond now that I am looking for it! It is satin or taffeta with a stripe of velvet. the stripes were apx 1 inch wide. I am looking for purple or lavender with matching color stripe or black stripe with the color. Help! Misty Morigianna@aol.com ------------------------------ From: Morigianna@aol.com Date: Tue, 13 Aug 1996 21:18:22 -0400 To: h-costume@andrew.cmu.edu Subject: Re: H-costume digest. Volume 4 Number 9 In a message dated 96-08-08 02:17:10 EDT, you write: << Nationally known ribbonwork artist Candace Kling will be teaching two all day classes in Corvallis, OR on the weekend of Sept 21-22. "Beginning Ribbon Flowers" will be on Saturday 9/21 & "Antique Ribbonwork & Trims" on Sunday 9/22. The techniques taught in both >> I took the ribbon class at Costume Colledge and the woman is amazing! I learned sooooooo much. TAKE THIS CLASS! It will be the best money you ever spent! Misty Johnson ------------------------------ From: bglickman@eckert.acadcomp.monroecc.edu Date: Tue, 13 Aug 1996 23:55:18 EDT To: h-costume@andrew.cmu.edu Subject: Non-costume info sought Hi! Does anyone out there know if the "Wearable Art" list got going again? Like the H-Costume list, it was 'owned' or whatever by Diane Close. I had to unsubscribe from both lists in early May...I would appreciate any info you might have. Also, does anyone hear from Diane? I hope all is going well for her and her husband and their new jobs... Thank you - Bonnie Glickman, Rochester, NY -------------------------------------------------|=|=|-------- Bonnie Glickman =|=|= "I'm NOT waiting Bio. Dept.; Monroe Comm. Coll. |=|=| until I'm old... Rochester, NY 14623 (716) 292-2725 =|=|= I'm wearing my email: bglickman@eckert.acadcomp.monroecc.edu |=|=| Purple NOW!!" -bg ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 Aug 1996 21:28:00 -0700 From: To: h-costume@andrew.cmu.edu Subject: Ribbon class I second Misty Johnsons recommendation of the Candace Kling ribbonwork classes. I've taken both her cocade class at CC14 & her flower class at Costume College. I learned lots of techniques in each class that I'm starting to use in both historical & wearable art pieces. I definitely got my money's worth. (The $55 fee for the Corvallis classes covers only her fee & transportation...). There are still a few spaces left if anyone is interested. (I wish I could post pictures of my sample boards from her classes here! Alison ------------------------------ From: "Donlan, Vincent" To: costume list Subject: The Historical Clothing Company Date: Wed, 14 Aug 96 13:16:00 0BS In response to queries about the Historical Clothing Company - It is based in Yorkshire, England and produces authentic historical clothing from the Dark Ages to the early 20th century. Men, women, children, soldiers and all ranks and classes of society are covered in most western countries. The strongest areas are Dark Ages to 18th century, western European or those cultures influenced by those styles. The usual approach is by personal discussion (telephone, letter or e-mail if necessary). All garments are individually hand made to order. Contact Sally Ann Chandler. The address is The Historical Clothing Company, 49, Washington Grove, Bentley, Doncaster, DN5 9RJ, England. E-mail s.a.chandler@shu.ac.uk Gretchen - I hope this is OK - I didn't know if I was allowed to blow my own trumpet but I'd be here forever if I tried to reply to everyone individually. ------------------------------ From: "Donlan, Vincent" To: costume list Subject: UK Branch of the ICG Date: Wed, 14 Aug 96 13:18:00 0BS Maggie, You referred to the UK branch of the International Costume Guild. Could you post details, please? Thanks, Sally Ann Chandler s.a.chandler@shu.ac.uk ------------------------------ From: "Donlan, Vincent" To: costume list Subject: British Suppliers Date: Wed, 14 Aug 96 13:28:00 0BS I have had a number of requests for information about suppliers - particularly for fabrics. The following are some of those who will supply mail order although you'll have to enquire about their arrangements for sending overseas: (apologies to all of you who know this backwards) MacCulloch & Wallis 25 - 26 Dering Street London W1R 0BH England Fabrics, equipment, haberdashery Whaleys of Bradford Harris Court Great Horton Bradford West Yorkshire BD7 4EQ England Fabrics (absolutely wonderful) Devine & Co 30 East Street Southend on Sea Essex S52 6LX Corsetry Supplies Barnett Lawson & Co 16 - 17 Little Portland Street London W1N 4BG Braid, lace and ribbon Sally Ann Chandler s.a.chandler@shu.ac.uk ------------------------------ From: zorro@netdepot.com (David Marcus & Peggy Lamberson) To: gottfred@agt.net (Jeff Gottfred) Cc: h-costume@andrew.cmu.edu Subject: Re: Cree Indian hairstyle Date: Wed, 14 Aug 1996 09:14:23 -0400 Jeff Gottfred wrote (Tue, 13 Aug 1996 09:02:02 -0600 (MDT)): >I have been puzzled by the following descriptions of the hairstyles of Cree >Indian women before 1821. If anyone can figure out how to do the styles >described without benefit of hairpins and other modern aids, I >would appreciate some pointers. >from 1775: "The women wear their hair of a great length, both behind and >before, dividing it on the forehead and at the back of the head, and >collecting the hair of each side into a roll, which is fastened above the >ear; and this roll...is covered with a piece of skin [leather]...These >rolls, with their coverings, >resemble a pair of large horns." >It's not entirely clear what's being described here but Princess Leia comes >to mind. Anyone have some thoughts? > >--Angela Gottfred >gottfred@agt.net I've seen contemporary drawings and paintings of Cree women where their hair did in fact look like the style Princess Leia wore, only the rolls were much larger. I don't think you should automatically assume they didn't use any kind of hairpins. Straight "pins" made of bone or hardened wood could have been used to hold the edges of the roll together, as well as to the hair on the head. I don't _know_ that this was done, but it certainly would have been _possible_; perhaps you can find a source that says yea or nay. In any case, from the pictures I've seen, it looks like they did the obvious thing: separate the hair along the crown, pull it tight near the ear, wind it into a twist and pull the twisted hair into a flattened spiral. I have a vague memory of seeing pictures where a strip of what might have been leather was wound around the length of the twisted rope of hair. This would have helped keep the hair neatly in place, and securing the end of the leather strip would have helped secure the whole roll. I am _sure_ however, that not all of the pictures showed such a device. Good luck, Peggy ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Aug 1996 09:38:19 -0400 From: Dale Loberger To: Rebecca Plummer Cc: h-costume@andrew.cmu.edu Subject: Re: Subject: metal eyelet holes Saundra Ros Altman, in the documentation for her Pattern #001 for 1830's stays, writes: " "Patent lace-holes" (metal eyelets) were available; modern sources tell us that metal eyelets allowed tighter lacing because thread eyelets tore out. Of "patent lace-holes", The Workwoman~s Guide says, "~these are very durable, but are said to destroy the laces." " I have read elsewhere, and I can look this up again if you need it, that metal eyelets were invented in 1828 for the use of lacing shoes or boots, and were used on stays by 1830. So, my "professional opinion" is, they are fine for any homemade corset or stay from at least the 1840's on, possibly earlier. That pretty much covers the Civil War period. I have not found that they are any harder on the laces, as the WG suggests. They do sometimes have a tendency to come out and need to be replaced, and sometimes they tear the fabric a little when this happens, but then, so do handmade eyelets become worn and need to be redone, sometimes annoyingly early. Give them a try. Susannah Eanes, Mantua Maker and Fine Tailoring (Susan Bridges Loberger for Susannah's Heirloom, Ltd.) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Aug 1996 09:51:37 -0400 From: Dale Loberger To: Carol Kocian Cc: h-costume@andrew.cmu.edu Subject: Silk Lace/Bobbin Lacemaking > A hexagonal mesh stitch is pretty easy to learn as far as bobbin >lace goes. If there are no other sources for silk net, it may be the >only way to get it. I don't know if it's tacky or if it's worth your >time to learn. Your friendly neighborhood lace maker could teach you, >or you can find it in most of the basic bobbin lace books out there. Even though I have about decided that a silk lace collar would not be appropriate for this particular mourning outfit, this information intrigues me unbearably. Are you telling me that for a mid-century lace collar, bobbin lace is the way to go instead of chain stitch embroidery (net darning?) I had thought that bobbin lace wasn't done much after the very early 1800's. What do I know? Could I actually learn to make something like the old silk lace if I undertook to learn bobbin lace making? Is silk thread of the type they used to make this lace available? They tell me that 1000 denier is what was used and this just isn~t seen anymore. What deniers are available? Do you see how ignorant I am?! ;-) Does anybody out there know anything about this? I followed with interest the conversations about blackwork a few weeks back; I was amazed at how many people responded with so many intellegent things to add. _So,_ are there any silk lace experts out there **or bobbin lace aficionados** who can explain this to me? I have watched those ladies at events patiently tying knots with spiderwebs on $100 pillows with about two billion little silver pins and even though I am known for my putzing, this just seemed like the height of piddliness to me. Don't they usually use cotton thread? Is there a bobbin lace book for dummies? How hard is it to learn? If it's much piddlier than digitizing or cartridge pleating, I don't think I can bear it for long. Do your fingers get cramped? I'm sorry but I'm like a dog worrying a rabbit when my mind latches onto a new subject and I ask questions 'til I'm blue in the ~fingers. I await cogent responses to my blithering and blathering. Susannah Eanes, Mantua Maker and Fine Tailoring (Susan Bridges Loberger, for Susannah's Heirloom, Ltd.) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Aug 1996 10:05:01 -0400 From: Dale Loberger To: winkler@bg.tu-berlin.de Cc: h-costume@andrew.cmu.edu Subject: Help with Past Pattern Corset Dear Barbara: Saundra Altman (Past Patterns' owner) belongs to this list so she may be answering this question as I write but on the chance that she isn't, as far as I know all of her patterns have a half-inch seam allowance unless otherwise stated. This is usually printed on the pattern piece somewhere as well as near the beginning of the directions. I know I have had to search for it before, but it's always there. Susannah Eanes, Mantua Maker and Fine Tailoring (Susan Bridges Loberger for Susannah's Heirloom, Ltd.) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Aug 1996 10:06:40 -0500 (CDT) From: Sheryl Nance-Durst To: h-costume@andrew.cmu.edu Subject: Re: Janet Arnold article For those in North America, here is a partial list of places that hold copies of Waffen-und Kostumkunde. U.S.: Los Angeles County Museum of Art University of Connecticut Wadsworth Atneneum, Auerback Library (Connecticut) Library of Congress Smithsonian Institute University of Kentucky Tulane University (Louisiana) Boston Museum of Fine Arts Univeristy of North Carolina, Chapel Hill SUNY at Buffalo (New York) New York Public Library, Humanities Research Library University of Pennsylvania Canada: Univerisy of Alberta, Cameron Library University of Western Ontario If you're lucky enough to live near one of these places, you should probably be able to get a copy. If you're nowhere near one, check your local colleges & universities. Also, if you can dig up an e-mail (or snail-mail) address of one of the public libraries on this list, many of them have document delivery services which will mail copies of articles to you for a small fee (usually just a few dollars). I sent an e-mail to the NY public library asking about their service, but I haven't heard back from them yet. I'll post it to the list when I do. HTH! Sheryl J. Nance-Durst ...one of the secret masters of Kansas City MO Public Library the world: a librarian. They p_sheryl@kcpl.lib.mo.us control information. Don't ever p**s one off. - Spider Robinson, _The Callahan Touch_ (Opinions expressed in this message do not reflect the viewpoint of the Kansas City MO Public Library.) ------------------------------ From: ches@io.com Date: Wed, 14 Aug 96 09:22:20 PDT Subject: web pages To: h-costume@andrew.cmu.edu ..o0*0o.. Thank you everyone for giving me your webpage addresses. Here are the ones you all own! There are a high number of other resources but they are on these pages so go forth and search! :) Pattern making, Pattern slopes for men's trousers, vests and womens bodices, sleeves and soon skirts: http://www.panix.com/~aqn/tailoring/index.html general costume patterns: http://www.u-net.com/~evermore/ukcostum.htm http://palantir.soc.staffs.ac.uk/~mhorrill http://www.bibiana.com/velvet/peasant.html professional patternmaker cad program (excellent working demo!): http://www.eskimo.com/~pmaker Dallas Fabric Shopping: http://ares.redsword.com/dduperault/stores.htm The Costume Page: http://ddi.digital.net/~milieux/costume.html Boot patterns: http://www.pbm.com/~lindahl/carlson/ Elizabethian Resources: http://www-personal.umich.edu/~jsingman/TBLResources.html#Costume Elizabethian Corsets: "http://www.dnaco.net/~aleed/corsets/">http://www.dnaco.net/~aleed/corsets/ Archives from the rialto: http://www.pbm.com/~lindahl/rialto/rialto.html Color Names Through the Centuries: http://www.geocities.com/BourbonStreet/2157/ RAGS Magazine: http://204.189.12.10/R/RAGS/HTML/CTLink.html Bra and Underwire FAQ's: http://www.funhouse.com/babs/FAQ.html The Costume Page with Costume Convention Calender: http://members.aol.com/nebula5/costume.html Godey's Ladies books: http://www.uvm.edu/~hag/godey/welcome.html History of Costume by Braun & Schular: http://www.siue.edu/COSTUMES/history.html (has entire book of color plates online!) Gallery of Garb: http://www.calweb.com/~unicorn/index.html Crossstitch: http://www.crl.com/~kdyer/software.html Merchants: http://www.clever.net/rencross/merchind.htm MISC: Online Magazine Recreating History: http://www.recreating-history.com Online Suppliers: Past Impressions: www.geocities.com/Broadway/3379 Links to other Suppliers: http://members.aol.com/nebula5/tcpsupp.html#suppliers "Iain DubhSpirag wwill@siu.edu has created an anonymous FTP directory for armory articles & patterns. He does have access to a scanner so those who have patterns they would like see on the web but have no scanner capability can snail mail the patterns to the following address and he will scan and upload them: Iain DubhSpirag 519 North Ninth Street Murphysboro, IL 62966 The FTP is ftp://131.230.64.6 and the armory upload directory is /armour. Hopefully this will become a benefit to armorers throughout the knowne worlde." Let me know of your pages as they develope! Lady Chiara Ciao @}\ Ches @}----`--,-- http://www.io.com/~ches @}/ ----------------------------- Date: Wed, 14 Aug 1996 08:49:16 -0700 (PDT) From: Heather Rose Jones To: h-costume@andrew.cmu.edu Subject: Re: looking for fabric... On Tue, 13 Aug 1996 Morigianna@aol.com wrote: > I am tring to find a fabric I have seen but cant fond now that I am looking > for it! > It is satin or taffeta with a stripe of velvet. the stripes were apx 1 inch > wide. I am looking for purple or lavender with matching color stripe or black > stripe with the color. The only place I have seen something of this sort is in upholstery departments. Try a store that specializes in upholstery fabrics and has _lots_ of swatch books. And then be prepared to spend an arm and a leg for it. Heather Rose Jones ------------------------------ To: h-costume , Sheryl Nance-Durst From: Stacey Weinberger at WADSWORTH Date: 14 Aug 96 8:53:00 Subject: Re[2]: Janet Arnold article New Text Item: Re: Janet Arnold article Dear Sheryl: Can you recommend any places in the San Francisco Bay area? Thank you! Stacey ______________________________ Reply Separator___________________________ Subject: Re: Janet Arnold article Author: P_SHERYL@KCPL.LIB.MO.US (Sheryl Nance-Durst) @ BelmontSMTP at NOTES_DIRECTORY Date: 8/14/96 10:06 AM For those in North America, here is a partial list of places that hold copies of Waffen-und Kostumkunde. U.S.: Los Angeles County Museum of Art University of Connecticut Wadsworth Atneneum, Auerback Library (Connecticut) Library of Congress Smithsonian Institute University of Kentucky Tulane University (Louisiana) Boston Museum of Fine Arts Univeristy of North Carolina, Chapel Hill SUNY at Buffalo (New York) New York Public Library, Humanities Research Library University of Pennsylvania Canada: Univerisy of Alberta, Cameron Library University of Western Ontario If you're lucky enough to live near one of these places, you should probably be able to get a copy. If you're nowhere near one, check your local colleges & universities. Also, if you can dig up an e-mail (or snail-mail) address of one of the public libraries on this list, many of them have document delivery services which will mail copies of articles to you for a small fee (usually just a few dollars). I sent an e-mail to the NY public library asking about their service, but I haven't heard back from them yet. I'll post it to the list when I do. HTH! Sheryl J. Nance-Durst ...one of the secret masters of Kansas City MO Public Library the world: a librarian. They p_sheryl@kcpl.lib.mo.us control information. Don't ever p**s one off. - Spider Robinson, _The Callahan Touch_ (Opinions expressed in this message do not reflect the viewpoint of the Kansas City MO Public Library.) ------------------------------ End of h-costume Digest Volume 4 Issue 13 ************************************ From ???@??? Tue Aug 20 09:42:22 1996 Received: from PO7.ANDREW.CMU.EDU by mail.math.TU-Berlin.DE with SMTP id AA20564 (5.67b8/IDA-1.5 for ); Tue, 20 Aug 1996 01:39:55 +0200 Received: (from postman@localhost) by po7.andrew.cmu.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3) id TAA20814; Mon, 19 Aug 1996 19:00:10 -0400 Received: via switchmail for +dist+/afs/andrew.cmu.edu/usr7/grm/Miscell/h-costume-digest.dl@andrew.cmu.edu; Mon, 19 Aug 1996 19:00:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from pcs36.andrew.cmu.edu via qmail ID ; Mon, 19 Aug 1996 18:58:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from pcs36.andrew.cmu.edu via qmail ID ; Mon, 19 Aug 1996 18:57:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mms.4.170.Jun.27.1996.16.34.50.sun4.41.MacMail.5.2.CUILIB.3.45.SNAP.NOT.LINKED.pcs36.andrew.cmu.edu.sun4m.412 via MS.5.6.pcs36.andrew.cmu.edu.sun4_41; Mon, 19 Aug 1996 18:57:57 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: Date: Mon, 19 Aug 1996 18:57:57 -0400 (EDT) From: Gretchen M Beck To: +dist+/afs/andrew.cmu.edu/usr7/grm/Miscell/h-costume-digest.dl@andrew.cmu.edu Subject: H-costume digest. Volume 4 Number 14 Reply-To: h-costume@andrew.cmu.edu H-costume Digest, Volume 4 Number 14 Today's Topics: Men's Pantaloons ca. 1800-1820 Worldcon repeat messages 15th century women's clothing Red heels in 17th century france Civil War Reenactments Re:Bare breasts in 18th century? RE: Re[2]: Janet Arnold article Bath Costume Museum Primitive Shoes Re: Primitive Shoes Primitive shoes frock coats re:18th century bare breasts Re: Primitive Shoes eyelet holes ---------------------------------------------------------------------- To: h-costume+@andrew.cmu.edu From: iteach@slip.net (Elizabeth Pruyn) Subject: Men's Pantaloons ca. 1800-1820 Date: Wed, 14 Aug 1996 09:42:31 -0700 Hi there, >"Cut of Men's Clothes" is outstanding. Sadly, it's nearly >unavailable. I think I photocopied most of my college library's copy.:) "The Cut of Men's Clothing" and "The Cut of Women's Clothing" are both available through Rainments (Pasadena CA). I don't have their address handy, but they had both at Costume College. I think Lacis in Berkeley also has them. Yours, Elizabeth Elizabeth Pruyn iteach@slip.net Oakland, CA "If I had been around when Rubens was painting, I would have been revered as a fabulous model. Kate Moss? Well, she would have been the paint brush..." - Dawn French ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Aug 1996 12:44:57 -0600 To: h-costume@andrew.cmu.edu From: tallison@mcs.com (Tim Allison) Subject: Worldcon Does anyone know if there will be a tour of the LA fabric district in conjuction with LACON3? Carol Mitchell ------------------------------ From: Gaelscot@aol.com Date: Wed, 14 Aug 1996 19:17:12 -0400 To: h-costume@andrew.cmu.edu Subject: repeat messages This is just a friendly reminder -- some of us get this list in digest form, and our email messages can only be so long. It is frustrating to miss the end of a digest because many of the messages reply to other messages, which they quote in full! Please remember to cut your quotes or -- better yet -- paraphrase and don't quote at all! Thanks -- Gail Finke gaelscot@aol.com ------------------------------ From: Gaelscot@aol.com Date: Wed, 14 Aug 1996 19:20:33 -0400 To: h-costume@andrew.cmu.edu Subject: 15th century women's clothing A week or so ago, in the dicusssion about 15th century women's underpinnings, someone (I don't have the letter anymore, sorry!) mentioned breast wrapping, or some similar term, to explain how one might have achieved the silhouette without stays. Would the person who wrote this please explain what this was and how it was done? Gail Finke Gaelscot@aol.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Aug 1996 19:36:26 From: benningj@gnn.com (Janice Benning) To: h-costume@andrew.cmu.edu Subject: Red heels in 17th century france I'm interested in learning more about the practice of wearing red-heeled shoes at the court of Louis XIV..... can anyone direct me to documentation on the subject, or at least fill me in on the theories? Much thanks, Janice B. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Aug 1996 23:32:18 -0600 To: h-costume@andrew.cmu.edu From: tallison@mcs.com (Tim Allison) Subject: Civil War Reenactments I've just recently come across the request for information about civil war reemactments. There are several usenet newsgroups you can check: soc.history.living and alt.history-living for example. If you have web access, go to any search engine and plug in reenactors. You'll find plenty of possibilities. You might also want to post your request on one of the newsgroups. Carol Mitchell ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 15 Aug 1996 07:20:49 -0400 From: Dale Loberger To: Margo Anderson Cc: h-costume@andrew.cmu.edu Subject: Re:Bare breasts in 18th century? Norah Waugh, in Corsets and Crinolines, quotes extensively from period sources, many of which allude to various states of undress and exposure on the part of women who follow fashion. Some of the more relevant ones: 1811, The Mirror of the Graces: "We see immodesty on one side, unveiling the too redundant bosom . . ." p. 126, c. 1800 engraving depicting lady in Regency attire preparing to apply false bosoms; the caption reads, "The fashion of false bosoms has at least this utility, that it compels our fashionable fair to wear something" 1775, Lady~s Magazine: "Stays quite low before, and the bosom much exposed." p. 64, c. 1750 - 1755 Nymphenburg porcelain figure dressed in elaborate court dress with breasts clearly exposed above her beribboned bodice. R. Turner Wilcox, in The Mode in Costume, shows several sketches c. 1780 - 1783 based on period sources of women in elegant dresses and bare breasts, mostly in his discussion of French court dress. Estelle A. Worrell, in her comprehensive Early American Costume, states in her caption to the 1800 Round Gown, figure 106: "Without a chemise or kerchief the new low necklines would completely expose the breasts. They were reported to have been worn that way in France, but those pictured in the United States are modestly filled in." I apologize that I cannot find where I saw two late eighteenth c. or early nineteenth c. (1780 - 1805 or so) engravings of French women, one was a group of seamstresses, the other was a single front-facing young lady, wearing wispy Greek high-waisted gowns and tight-fitting round gowns, with the breasts exposed to various degrees. Most of them wore no trace of a flirtatious chemise ruffle for the nipples to peep out from. The "neckline" (term used --ahem~loosely; pardon the pun!) came to just under the nipples. The breasts of the seamstresses seemed to be pushed up to mound above the edge of the dress, but the lone young woman obviously wore absolutely nothing underneath her Grecian columnar gown, which also seemed to be either wet or oiled to leave nothing whatsoever to the imagination. The appalling thing about these portraits was the peaceful, beatific expression on the faces of these women. They looked positively bovine. If I can find these two engravings in a reasonable period of time I will be sure to post. Susannah Eanes, Mantua Maker and Fine Tailoring (Susan B. Loberger, for Susannah~s Heirloom, Ltd.) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 15 Aug 1996 9:33:00 -0500 (CDT) From: Sheryl Nance-Durst To: Stacey_Weinberger_at_WADSWORTH.WADSWORTH@wadsworth.com CC: h-costume@andrew.cmu.edu Subject: RE: Re[2]: Janet Arnold article >Can you recommend any places in the San Francisco Bay area? Sorry, I tried all the library catalogs that I could find in the Bay area, but none had "Waffen-und Kostumkunde". I did find out the prices from NY Public Library on their services. It's pretty steep ($15.00 per article). You can order articles through the WWW. If anyone wants the URL just let me know. Maybe 2 or more people who want the article can split the fee & then copy it. Sheryl J. Nance-Durst ...one of the secret masters of Kansas City MO Public Library the world: a librarian. They p_sheryl@kcpl.lib.mo.us control information. Don't ever p**s one off. - Spider Robinson, _The Callahan Touch_ (Opinions expressed in this message do not reflect the viewpoint of the Kansas City MO Public Library.) ------------------------------ To: costume list From: Stacey Weinberger at WADSWORTH Date: 15 Aug 96 10:06:00 Subject: Bath Costume Museum New Text Item: British Suppliers Greetings! Would someone please send me the address and phone number of the costume museum in Bath? Thank you very much! Stacey stacey_weinberger@wadsworth.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 15 Aug 1996 13:42:20 -0700 From: Frances Grimble To: h-costume@andrew.cmu.edu Subject: Primitive Shoes Does anyone know the publisher and ISBN for Margrethe Held's (spelling?) _Primitive Shoes_? I have been looking for it and Fred Struthers offered to order it, but needs that information. Thanks for any info. Fran Grimble ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 15 Aug 1996 14:40:48 -0700 (PDT) From: "B.M. O'Brien" To: Frances Grimble Cc: h-costume@andrew.cmu.edu Subject: Re: Primitive Shoes On Thu, 15 Aug 1996, Frances Grimble wrote: > Does anyone know the publisher and ISBN for Margrethe Held's (spelling?) > _Primitive Shoes_? I have been looking for it and Fred Struthers > offered to order it, but needs that information. > > Thanks for any info. > > Fran Grimble > _Primitive Shoes_ by Margrethe Hald, published by The National Museum of Denmark, ISBN 87 480 7282 6. Published in 1972. Peggy Sue (who seems to keep all the old messages) originally in a message from glink@silver.ucs.indiana.edu Thu Aug 15 14:37:54 1996 Date: Mon, 7 Mar 1994 23:46:30 -0500 (EST) From: Gary Link To: Costume Digest ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 15 Aug 1996 17:00:34 -0500 (CDT) From: Sheryl Nance-Durst To: h-costume@andrew.cmu.edu CC: lavolta@best.com Subject: Primitive shoes Fran, Here is the info on _Primitive Shoes_ by Margrethe Hald. There is no ISBN # listed (most likely because it wasn't published in the US). ACCESSION: 784938 AUTHOR: Hald, Margrethe, 1897- TITLE: Primitive shoes. An archaeological-ethnological study based upon shoe finds from the Jutland peninsula. PLACE: Kobenhavn, PUBLISHER: Nationalmuseet, Eksp.: Gyldendal, YEAR: 1972 PUB TYPE: Book FORMAT: 216 p., 1 leaf of plates. illus. 30 cm. SERIES: Publications of the National Museum. Archaeological-historical series I, v.13 Nationalmuseets skrifter. Arkaeologisk-historisk raekke ; v.13. NOTES: Bibliography: p. [206]-209. SUBJECT: Boots and shoes -- History. HTH! Sheryl J. Nance-Durst ...one of the secret masters of Kansas City MO Public Library the world: a librarian. They p_sheryl@kcpl.lib.mo.us control information. Don't ever p**s one off. - Spider Robinson, _The Callahan Touch_ (Opinions expressed in this message do not reflect the viewpoint of the Kansas City MO Public Library.) ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 16 Aug 1996 18:30:58 -0700 To: h-costume@andrew.cmu.edu From: michaelg@wavefront.com (Michael Gause) Subject: frock coats I am interested in purchasing a knee-length frock or morning coat. Where can one buy an original, or have one made? Please respond, Michael Gause ------------------------------ From: SaraFern@aol.com Date: Thu, 15 Aug 1996 22:41:47 -0400 To: h-costume@andrew.cmu.edu Subject: re:18th century bare breasts Engravings of young french women with this style of dress are found in "What People Wore". I will write later with author and other info. Just a little extra - it was also a fashion to wear "fake breasts" with these dresses (if you were not so well endowed!) Sara Stibbins ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 15 Aug 1996 20:54:28 -0700 (PDT) From: Heather Rose Jones To: h-costume@andrew.cmu.edu Subject: Re: Primitive Shoes On Thu, 15 Aug 1996, Frances Grimble wrote: > Does anyone know the publisher and ISBN for Margrethe Held's (spelling?) > _Primitive Shoes_? I have been looking for it and Fred Struthers > offered to order it, but needs that information. The National Museum of Denmark (Copenhagen, 1972) ISBN 87-480-7282-6 Heather Rose Jones ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 16 Aug 96 09:59:29 UT From: "Rebecca Plummer" To: h-costume@andrew.cmu.edu Subject: eyelet holes I meant to thank everyone who responded to me about the metal eyelet holes personally, but I lost all the addresses. So THANK YOU to everyone to responded! The infromation confirmed my own beliefs and added to my period costume knowledge. Sincerely, Becci ******************************************************** Past Impressions - Authentic Reproduction Clothing for All Ages 13912 Springhouse Court Clifton, VA 20124 (note the new zip code) www.geocities.com/Broadway/3379 becci_plummer@msn.com Some of our special discount rates: **Get 15% off when you order a complete outfit!!! **Refer a new customer to Past Impressions and receive up to 15% off YOUR next order (depending on how much the new customer spends)!!! **We beat any competitor's prices for available items!!! **Free estimates **Free help and sketch/design for special projects ------------------------------ End of h-costume Digest Volume 4 Issue 14 ************************************ From ???@??? Wed Aug 21 09:29:33 1996 Received: from PO9.ANDREW.CMU.EDU by mail.math.TU-Berlin.DE with SMTP id AA28228 (5.67b8/IDA-1.5 for ); Tue, 20 Aug 1996 21:46:02 +0200 Received: (from postman@localhost) by po9.andrew.cmu.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3) id PAA13211; Tue, 20 Aug 1996 15:16:51 -0400 Received: via switchmail for +dist+/afs/andrew.cmu.edu/usr7/grm/Miscell/h-costume-digest.dl@andrew.cmu.edu; Tue, 20 Aug 1996 15:16:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: from pcs34.andrew.cmu.edu via qmail ID ; Tue, 20 Aug 1996 15:16:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: from pcs34.andrew.cmu.edu via qmail ID ; Tue, 20 Aug 1996 15:15:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mms.4.170.Jun.27.1996.16.34.50.sun4.41.MacMail.5.2.CUILIB.3.45.SNAP.NOT.LINKED.pcs34.andrew.cmu.edu.sun4m.412 via MS.5.6.pcs34.andrew.cmu.edu.sun4_41; Tue, 20 Aug 1996 15:15:59 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: Date: Tue, 20 Aug 1996 15:15:59 -0400 (EDT) From: Gretchen M Beck To: +dist+/afs/andrew.cmu.edu/usr7/grm/Miscell/h-costume-digest.dl@andrew.cmu.edu Subject: H-costume digest. Volume 4 Number 15 Reply-To: h-costume@andrew.cmu.edu H-costume Digest, Volume 4 Number 15 Today's Topics: re:18th century bare breasted fashions Louis' red heels Re: Cree Indian hairstyle FW: Shameless plug... Leather stuff!! 1927 Nurse Uniforms?? Re: 1927 Nurse Uniforms?? flags Re: flags Re: flags To use or not to use Wearing vintage clothes preacher's frock [iso-8859-1] ~tracken~ trying to source specialty fabric material? Just curious ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SaraFern@aol.com Date: Fri, 16 Aug 1996 15:17:52 -0400 To: h-costume@andrew.cmu.edu Subject: re:18th century bare breasted fashions Found it! What People Wore Douglas Gorsline ISBN: 0-517-143208 Pages 121,123,125 Also, there is an illustration in Corsets and Crinolines - Norah Waugh Page 126 - "Les Suppleans" - a woman wearing fake breasts Mostly you see this style in French fashions, but there are engravings in "What People Wore" that show this fashion in England. Sara Stibbins ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 16 Aug 1996 17:12:37 -0700 From: To: h-costume@andrew.cmu.edu Subject: Louis' red heels Cc: kondoa@ucs.orst.edu The best book on the clothing of Louis xiv's court is "Louis XIV & Versailles" by Diana de Marly, Batsford press, London, 1987, ISBN 0 7134 5364 8 Louis love of "flame colour" early in his reign is mentioned often & the heels seem to have come about as an idea of his younger & shorter brother, but Louis "one-upped" him by wearing higher heels faster than his brothr could put his idea into practice. (Nobody gets to be taller than the King!)... I've always liked this period, the clothing went through some interesting evolutions, for both men & women. Alison ------------------------------ From: RContreras@aol.com Date: Fri, 16 Aug 1996 21:00:48 -0400 To: gottfred@agt.net, h-costume@andrew.cmu.edu Subject: Re: Cree Indian hairstyle Don't assume they had no hairpins. Bone and wood implements of very fine & sophisticated design have been found in native American archaeological sites that date to centuries before the first European contact, among which are hairpins, combs and other hair adornments (beads, etc.), some of which made Marie Antionette's hair geegaws look primitive. They also used lots of bear grease. Rhonda in Atlanta ------------------------------ From: ches@io.com Date: Sat, 17 Aug 96 00:55:48 PDT Subject: FW: Shameless plug... Leather stuff!! To: Wetlands-L@Lists.io.com, h-costume@andrew.cmu.edu They do not have a web page yet so write to them for more info! :) On Fri, 16 Aug 1996 18:07:49 -0400 Homewrkr2@aol.com wrote: > We have officially become merchants. Just about anything made of leather, >we can make. All you knights that are also light fighters, we can make white >rapier belts. For an idea of the quality of our work, we made the belt for >the Queen's Rapier of Honor, that everyone who was at Queen' s saw. > > If you have anything (we've even recieved an order for an Olde English >Saddle!!) you are interested in and can't find or don't want to make, Please >email Kristof at Capkit@aol.com This has been a long time in coming but we're >officially McCleod Trading Company. Some of the things we have in stock: >sword holders, sheaths, rapier belts (frog belts), latigo belts. Special >order items: buff coats, boots, saddles, almost anything else you can come up >with. I won't mention this again don't worry, but I did want to get the word >out. > >Thanks, >Lost > ..o0*0o.. Lady Chiara Ciao @}\ Known World Academy of the Rapier: Ches @}----`--,-- http://www.io.com/~ches/rapier.html @}/ ------------------------------ From: KLINES@GBMS01.UWGB.EDU Date: Sat, 17 Aug 1996 15:34:02 -0500 (CDT) Subject: 1927 Nurse Uniforms?? To: h-costume@andrew.cmu.edu I was hoping some one could point me to some sources for costuming a nurse and dr. from the late '20's [1927 to be specific]. I am costuming a production set in this era and I've not been very successful. Books, movies [videos] or web sites would help. Thanks. Sue Kline-Heim klines@uwgb.edu ------------------------------ From: MerryLass@aol.com Date: Sat, 17 Aug 1996 22:25:29 -0400 To: h-costume@andrew.cmu.edu Subject: Re: 1927 Nurse Uniforms?? Sue wrote... >I was hoping some one could point me to some sources for costuming a nurse and dr. from the late '20's< The Sisters of Mercy, a community of Roman Catholic women founded in Dublin in the middle of the last century, and dedicated to performing "works of mercy" for the poor, the sick and the uneducated, founded many hospitals in this country in the early part of this century. The Sisters at Saint Joseph's Hospital in Savannah, Georgia were kind enough to allow me to borrow a reproduction of a student nurse's uniform from the 1940's... Perhaps your local Catholic hospital has photos or reproductions of their past uniforms on display or in archives. The Sisters of Mercy have a website at: http://www.sxu.edu/sxu/mcauley.html You may also wish to contact any college or university in your area with a nursing program... Some of them have been around for a very long time, and they tend to have excellent photographic records. Even today nursing students wear the "traditional" uniform at many schools. Good luck! Heather Sheahan-Landstrom History in the Making ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 18 Aug 96 19:30:40 UT From: "Rebecca Plummer" To: h-costume@andrew.cmu.edu Subject: flags This is not really a costuming question, but more of a textile question. I recently visited Annapolis and while in some of the museums I noticed that the old flags had a kind of snake skin look to them. When I looked closer, I realized that the look was due to stitching worked through the entire flag. Almost like quilting. This was really curious to me as I had never noticed such a thing done to old flags before. My question is: Does anyone know if that stitchign was done later to preserve the original cloth of the flag or if that stitching was done when the flag was first made? If it was done when the flag was first constructed, why? Decoration or utility? Hoping to have my curiousity relieved, ************************************************************ Rebecca A. Plummer Past Impressions - Authentic Reproduction Clothing for All Ages 13912 Springhouse Court Clifton, VA 20124 (note the new zip code) Some of our special discount rates: **Get 15% off when you order a complete outfit!!! **Refer a new customer to Past Impressions and receive up to 15% off YOUR next order (depending on how much the new customer spends)!!! **We beat any competitor's prices for available items!!! **Free estimates **Free help and sketch/design for special projects ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 19 Aug 1996 08:01:06 -0700 From: gwjchris@ix.netcom.com (Bill and Glenna Christen) Subject: Re: flags To: h-costume@andrew.cmu.edu You wrote: >the old flags had a kind of snake skin look to them. When I looked >closer, I realized that the look was due to stitching worked through >the entire flag. Almost like quilting. I'm replying to the entire list in case someone else was confused &/or curious about this too. I was at first as well. What you are seeing is not part of the flag, but a netting that the flag is mounted onto to support it for display purposes as the original material is far too frail to hold it's own weight without further damage. Old material may look strong, but it's fibers are weakened by time, light, dirt and body oils to name just a few dangers. The older an item is, the greater risk of irreparable damage. Also a garment with modern repairs has far less historic and research value than a pristine original. I know there are some people on this list who will disagree with me, but if you have an original garment, especially a unique or even potentially unique one, please don't wear it or use it. Draft a pattern from it, reproduce it and wear the reproduction, but once the original is damaged or destroyed, it's gone forever. Even if it isn't so unique, if enough people persist in wearing originals even common items will become rare. I will now step down from my soap box... Respectfully, Glenna Jo Christen gwjchris@ix.netcom.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 19 Aug 1996 09:21:41 -0800 From: "R.L. Shep" To: Bill and Glenna Christen CC: h-costume@andrew.cmu.edu Subject: Re: flags Bill and Glenna Christen wrote: > > You wrote: > > >the old flags had a kind of snake skin look to them. When I looked > >closer, I realized that the look was due to stitching worked through > >the entire flag. Almost like quilting. > > I'm replying to the entire list in case someone else was confused &/or > curious about this too. I was at first as well. What you are seeing > is not part of the flag, but a netting that the flag is mounted onto to > support it for display purposes as the original material is far too > frail to hold it's own weight without further damage. > > Old material may look strong, but it's fibers are weakened by time, > light, dirt and body oils to name just a few dangers. The older an > item is, the greater risk of irreparable damage. Also a garment with > modern repairs has far less historic and research value than a pristine > original. I know there are some people on this list who will disagree > with me, but if you have an original garment, especially a unique or > even potentially unique one, please don't wear it or use it. Draft a > pattern from it, reproduce it and wear the reproduction, but once the > original is damaged or destroyed, it's gone forever. Even if it isn't > so unique, if enough people persist in wearing originals even common > items will become rare. > > I will now step down from my soap box... > Respectfully, > Glenna Jo Christen > gwjchris@ix.netcom.com This is a difficult subject for some people, especially people who make their money selling "vintage clothes", and people who want to wear a garment to be seen in it. But it is worth the fight. I agree with you 100%. Many people and museums are coming around to this point of view and are discouraging the wearing of historically important clothing for any purpose. ~!~ R.L. Shep ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 19 Aug 1996 14:06:04 -0400 To: h-costume@andrew.cmu.edu From: mhamilto@MAGNUS.ACS.OHIO-STATE.EDU (Marsha Hamilton) Subject: To use or not to use It's odd that no one would argue about sitting on museum furniture or using museum plate or glass for fund raising dinners but fabric, which may be far more fragile, hasn't completely earned that respect yet. I've seen ads for fund raising events where people wear historic pieces in a fashion show. I think consciousness raising is important in all disciplines. This group has done excellent work in raising an important issue. Marsha Hamilton >> Old material may look strong, but it's fibers are weakened by time, >> light, dirt and body oils to name just a few dangers. The older an >> item is, the greater risk of irreparable damage.... but once the >> original is damaged or destroyed, it's gone forever. Even if it isn't >> so unique, if enough people persist in wearing originals even common >> items will become rare. .....Many people and museums are coming around to this point of view >and are discouraging the wearing of historically important clothing for any >purpose. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 19 Aug 1996 12:08:23 -0700 From: Frances Grimble To: h-costume@andrew.cmu.edu Subject: Wearing vintage clothes My observations on wearing vintage clothes are: (1) The arguments against wearing vintage clothes assume all collectors should function as museums. However, museums are businesses with specific business goals. Collectors collect vintage clothing for their own purposes, which vary with the individual. Otherwise there would be no point to collecting. (Which, by the way, costs considerable time and money if undertaken on any scale.) (2) Most vintage clothes are not considered worthy of collection by most museums. No only do museums not purchase the vast majority of what is on the market; many routinely sell unwanted donations to vintage clothing dealers. (3) Most vintage clothing available and affordable to the average middle-class collector is not museum-worthy in terms of one or more of the following criteria: age, condition, aesthetic value, or historic value. (In fact, many high-end dealers offer their best items to museums before the general public.) If you go to any of the many vintage clothing shows, you will see 100+ dealers offering a total of thousands of items. Although most will be pleasing (at least to somebody!), you will recognize, for example, that there are _many_ Edwardian white blouses out there, none terribly unique. (I have over 100, and have passed up _lots_ more because I already have too many.) (4) People not only collect, but alter and use, many antique items without encountering criticism. I've never heard anyone preach against buying a Victorian house and upgrading the wiring, plumbing, and insulation; remodeling the kitchen for modern appliances; and adding a bathroom; all to make it livable and up to code. Or against refinishing antique furniture to put in it. (5) People are intelligent and competent to make their own decisions about their own posessions and lifestyle. You may think your religious beliefs are _right_ and theirs will send them to Hell; or your political beliefs are _right_ and their votes will send the country to Hell. Or you don't like the way they raise their children or conduct their sex lives. However, some things are simply not your business--or under your control. Fran Grimble ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 19 Aug 96 19:40:38 UT From: "Rebecca Plummer" To: h-costume@andrew.cmu.edu Subject: preacher's frock Thanks to those who responded about the flag question. Now I have an actual costuming question. A customer has jsut requested a "preacher's frock" from the wide time period range of 1850 - 1880. I have never researched in to the area of religious clothing. Does anyone know where some good resources would be, or can tell me some more about a preacher's frock that might be helpful in finishing this project? Thanks in advance, ***************************************************** Rebecca A. Plummer Past Impressions - Authentic Reproduction Clothing for All Ages 13912 Springhouse Court Clifton, VA 20124 (note the new zip code) (703)266-1299 becci_plummer@msn.com www.geocities.com/Broadway/3379 Some of our special discount rates: **Get 15% off when you order a complete outfit!!! **Refer a new customer to Past Impressions and receive up to 15% off YOUR next order (depending on how much the new customer spends)!!! **We beat any competitor's prices for available items!!! **Free estimates **Free help and sketch/design for special projects ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 17 Aug 1996 09:36:53 -0400 (EDT) From: "Chris J. Lamesfield" To: h-costume-request@andrew.cmu.edu Subject: [iso-8859-1] ~tracken~ Can anyone tell me where to get "tracken", the womens costume worn at todays Banat Danube Swabians social events. Chris cjl@mail.tir.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 19 Aug 1996 08:38:06 -0600 From: MikeRav@ix.netcom.com To: h-costume-request@andrew.cmu.edu Subject: trying to source specialty fabric material? If you need help locating a specific fabric or related material, try calling Juli or Andrea at the Industrial Fabrics Association International (IFAI) at 800-328-4324 or 612-222-2508. They also have a really neat 300 page "Review Buyer's Guide" that lists sources for lots of different kinds of textile materials, equipment, etc. ------------------------------ Date: 19 Aug 1996 16:04:17 -0800 From: "Karen Lovejoy" Subject: Just curious To: "H-Costume" This question is sort of costume and sort of historically related. Does anyone know the origin of the phrase "setting ones cap". I was watching a movie with my sister the other night and it came up and we were just curious about it. Thanks Hmmm... I wonder ------------------------------ End of h-costume Digest Volume 4 Issue 15 ************************************ From ???@??? Thu Aug 22 10:25:45 1996 Received: from PO9.ANDREW.CMU.EDU by mail.math.TU-Berlin.DE with SMTP id AA06034 (5.67b8/IDA-1.5 for ); Thu, 22 Aug 1996 01:15:52 +0200 Received: (from postman@localhost) by po9.andrew.cmu.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3) id SAA19748; Wed, 21 Aug 1996 18:45:40 -0400 Received: via switchmail for +dist+/afs/andrew.cmu.edu/usr7/grm/Miscell/h-costume-digest.dl@andrew.cmu.edu; Wed, 21 Aug 1996 18:45:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: from pcs32.andrew.cmu.edu via qmail ID ; Wed, 21 Aug 1996 18:44:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: from pcs32.andrew.cmu.edu via qmail ID ; Wed, 21 Aug 1996 18:43:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mms.4.170.Jun.27.1996.16.34.50.sun4.41.MacMail.5.2.CUILIB.3.45.SNAP.NOT.LINKED.pcs32.andrew.cmu.edu.sun4m.412 via MS.5.6.pcs32.andrew.cmu.edu.sun4_41; Wed, 21 Aug 1996 18:43:11 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: Date: Wed, 21 Aug 1996 18:43:11 -0400 (EDT) From: Gretchen M Beck To: +dist+/afs/andrew.cmu.edu/usr7/grm/Miscell/h-costume-digest.dl@andrew.cmu.edu Subject: H-costume digest. Volume 4 Number 16 Reply-To: h-costume@andrew.cmu.edu H-costume Digest, Volume 4 Number 16 Today's Topics: Re: Bare Breasts Bookstores in LA? Probably a really stupid request... Irish Dress Re: H-costume digest. Volume 4 Number 13 using vintage garments Arnold articles Re: Arnold articles book, vintage Re: using vintage garments Re: using vintage garments ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 19 Aug 1996 19:03:44 -0500 (CDT) From: Dennis Bednarek Mfg 4-6971 ~BHOSVWZ#097 Subject: Re: Bare Breasts To: h-costume@andrew.cmu.edu I think we should be carefull when reading literature in regard to this subject. When writers were refering to bare breasts to what extent are they claiming it was bare. Generally my thaughts are they ment more bare than the norm for the day. Not neccessarly a full breast exposure as the thaught hits us today. In an erea when breasts were commonly completly covered any garment that may have shown any cleavage may have been called bare breasted. True this may not be true in all cases but I think we need caution here with interputations. Dennis i ---------------------------------------------------------------------- return address: bednarekd@picard.med.ge.com home phone: 414-363-7082 work phone: 414-521-6962 GE. MED. MR Manufacturing 2nd Shift ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 19 Aug 1996 20:47:36 -0500 To: h-costume@andrew.cmu.edu From: CJ Brunette Subject: Bookstores in LA? I'm off to LA Weds night, will have a little free time-- can anyone suggest any interesting bookstores? Please reply to me, not the list, as I'm on digest & might not get the info before I go-- Thanks! CarolJane in Minneapolis PS-- If you're going to the Texuba kimono/obi sale in Marina del Rey, stop & say hi-- I'll be working there. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 19 Aug 1995 23:14:50 -0400 To: h-costume@andrew.cmu.edu From: Sharon and/or Mikie Subject: Probably a really stupid request... Okay, this is probably a really stupid request, but 1)I just found out this group existed, and 2) I am in my second year as a theatrical costuming student, so I'm just starting out. I'm looking for historical patterns for just about anything. From any time period really. I just want to start a database of sorts for design/cutting for theatre. I'm sure that everyone but me knows where to find this stuff, but the catch is, I don't have a lot of money (being a student and all), so can anyone help me?? Thanks! Sharon ***************************** * * * DON'T MESS WITH TECHIES - * * * * THEY ALL CARRY KNIVES * * * ***************************** ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Aug 1996 00:57:58 -0400 (EDT) From: Rebecca Handcock To: h-costume@andrew.cmu.edu cc: Rebecca Handcock Subject: Irish Dress An interesting summary. When reading how woven woolens were napped to make them water-resistant, I am reminded of the historic woolen blanket I have just purchased from the Hudson-bay company in Canada. They have been making these for hundreds of years, and the label describes a similar process. Apparently they were often used for their water resistant qualities. Interesting ... Bec ---------------------------- Rebecca Handcock ------------------------- handcock@geog.utoronto.ca || rebecca@gu.uwa.edu.au GIS Labs, Department of Geography, University of Toronto ---------- http://eratos.erin.utoronto.ca/handcock/bechome.html --------- ------------------------------ From: "TEDDY" To: Gretchen M Beck , h-costume@andrew.cmu.edu Date: Tue, 20 Aug 1996 14:58:08 GMT Subject: Re: H-costume digest. Volume 4 Number 13 > You referred to the UK branch of the International Costume Guild. Could > you post details, please? > > Thanks, > > Sally Ann Chandler > s.a.chandler@shu.ac.uk I don't know if I'm doing this right (I'm new to h-costume and email!) hopefully this will reach h-costume digest OK, 'though i'm sure Maggie will be replying herself. I'm treasurer and one of the people to contact about Costume Guild UK (CGUK). I don't want to clutter up the digest with an "advert for the guild. Anybody interestedin finding out more, feel free to mail me direct at: teddy1@mdx.ac.uk or by snail mail/telephone: Teddy CGUK 212 Albert Road Leyton London E10 6PD (0181) 539 9182 Happy costuming Teddy teddy1@mdx.ac.uk Central Bibliographic Unit Middlesex University Tel No. (0181) 362 6405 If a costume's worth making, it's worth making well enough to wear for every-day ------------------------------ From: RMITCHELL@washjeff.edu Date: Tue, 20 Aug 1996 10:23:08 -0400 (EDT) To: h-costume@andrew.CMU.EDU Subject: using vintage garments Kathleen (of the needle in the foot) was delighted with Fran Grimble's comments on the use of vintage garments. Fran said eloquently just what Kathleen has been saying in her practice. Two further points: 1)Many items arrived in Kathleen's collection as rags, half a step away from the burn pile. No museum or historical society has the room or interest for such things. But I am constantly amazed at what she can do by way either of restoration or, failing all else, constructing authentic patterns from the remains. In this way much authentic vintage material is preserved - reborn, perhaps, is better - that would otherwise be lost forever. 2) Following on that point: Kathleen, in her shows, is able, through judicious use of vintage material, to plead publically for the preservation of garments from all ages that might otherwise be thoughtlessly discarded. There is no end to the task of consciousness- raising. One absolutely stringent rule, however, *must* be enforced when using such garments in shows: *measured* sizes! Willingness to use appropriate vintage garments cannot be allowed to extend to pandering to today's generous commercial sizing or people's delusions of their own size ... And another rule: NO use of perfumes, deodorants, or ANY other chemicals on the body; proper undergarments REQUIRED. Also: keep a constant eye out for needed repairs; clean judiciously when necessary. (But carefully! Kathleen keeps telling of the time, early on, when she washed a '20's beaded and sequined rag - and found only the beads remained. The sequins, made of gelatin, went out with the water. She's learned a lot since then.) Regards - Lloyd Mitchell (for Kathleen) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Aug 1996 13:30:03 -0400 To: h-costume@andrew.cmu.edu From: walter@dept.physics.upenn.edu (Karen R. Walter) Subject: Arnold articles I'm distressed to find that someone has re-posted Denise's address and offer of reprints (from several years ago!) without checking with her first! She is no longer at Harvard EHS and no longer has access to low-cost copying (and right now does not subscribe to this list!). PLEASE do not send your requests to her. You'll be wasting your own time (and hers too, if the requests are forwarded to her). Thanks. Karen Walter walter@dept.physics.upenn.edu >Here is the first of several lists of articles I have available for >anyone interested. If you wish to receive a copy of any of the >articles, please send me your request VIA US MAIL, with one $.29 stamp >for each 8 pages of articles. If the article is less than 8 pages, just >send me a SASE. Send requests to: > > Denise Zaccagnino > Harvard University > Environmental Health & Safety > 46 Oxford Street > Cambridge, MA 02138 > >Please allow a reasonable time for mailing -- remember that I can only >do so much xeroxing and only have so much time to do this. > ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Aug 1996 11:54:21 -0700 (PDT) From: "B.M. O'Brien" To: "Karen R. Walter" Cc: h-costume@andrew.cmu.edu Subject: Re: Arnold articles Thank you for that note, but if you had noticed that her address was there, you also noticed that I said there were no guarantees. Please note my quote below. My intent was not to get people to contact her, but to get the info about the article correctly. I am sorry you were put out. PS *************************************** >From pegisue@u.washington.edu Tue Aug 20 11:51:52 1996 Date: Mon, 12 Aug 1996 15:44:42 -0700 (PDT) From: "B.M. O'Brien" To: Erin Harvey Moody Cc: h-costume Subject: Re: Janet Arnold Article I am not guaranteeing anything (including Denise's willingness to copy articles), but here is the original post about this article from Jan 1994.... ******************************************** On Tue, 20 Aug 1996, Karen R. Walter wrote: > I'm distressed to find that someone has re-posted Denise's address and offer > of reprints (from several years ago!) without checking with her first! She > is no longer at Harvard EHS and no longer has access to low-cost copying > (and right now does not subscribe to this list!). PLEASE do not send your > requests to her. You'll be wasting your own time (and hers too, if the > requests are forwarded to her). Thanks. > > Karen Walter > walter@dept.physics.upenn.edu ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Aug 1996 13:06:20 -0700 To: h-costume@andrew.cmu.edu From: Susan Fatemi Subject: book, vintage A while back I requested help/info on shattered silk. I don't remember if it was this list or one of the other ones. While I still don't know what to do about the silk, one kind soul recommended a novel called "Shattered Silk", (and thank you if you're reading this) that is a fun "read" for anyone interested in the vintage trade. It's sort of a romantic mystery and very fast paced. The author did her homework, and gives full credit to her "advisors in vintage". This has a bearing on the current re-hash of museum quality vs. usage dilemma. The characters in the book had come into possession of designer gowns as far back as Poiret (maybe Worth, I forget) as well as "ordinary" vintage. They offered them to the Costume Inst. and other musuems, but no one wanted them. They decided to rotate them on display to bring attention to their shop and rent them out for special occasions (no doubt with a hefty deposit!) but not to sell them. (there was a mention of Sotheby's auctioning similar garments for $$$thousands.) My 2c. is that to occasionally see a garment on a real moving person with the proper accessories, etc. makes it "real", brings it to life, in a way being in a glass case or on a mannequin can never do. Obviously some judgement must be used, but you can't save *everything*, and some stuff is just going to fall apart anyway, like the poor shattered silk. Susan Fatemi susanf@eerc.berkeley.edu ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Aug 1996 17:17:09 -0700 From: gwjchris@ix.netcom.com (Bill and Glenna Christen) Subject: Re: using vintage garments To: h-costume@andrew.cmu.edu You wrote: >1)...rags, half a step away from the burn pile....either of >restoration or, failing all else, constructing authentic patterns from >the remains. In this state, any use that can be made of them I'm all for as well!! Patterns can also be taken from intact garments as well. It sure is a lot easier to wear reproduction garments than originals. Especially when the originals date from the eras when women were corseted most of their lives, permanently affecting the shape of their figures.... >2)...plead publically for the preservation of garments from all ages >that might otherwise be thoughtlessly discarded. Amen to this too! >And another rule: NO use of perfumes, deodorants, or ANY other >chemicals on the body; proper undergarments REQUIRED. I have a problem with seeing original garments abused. Such as a woman wearing a beautiful 1890's silk with velvet trim dress to a "Dickens Christmas" event. Not only did it not fit the theme of the event, but far more importantly, it did not fit her, and so was totally ruined by the end of the first weekend. Fran and others may disagree with me, and that's their privilege of course, but I find this behavior inexcusable. As she said, there are more Edwardian white blouses out there than she could ever want, but how many complete 1890 silk and velvet gowns are there still left, or even rarer, an ordinary work dress from 100 plus years ago? These are the types of garments I'm most concerned with preserving. The garments that document different classes and walks of life. Museums change their collections, their budgets get cut, storage space is eliminated and artifacts are discarded, that doesn't mean the artifacts have no further value to posterity. I have a wool suit from the 1940's that I wear on certain specific occasions (following Kathleen's rules BTW.) If I had an equivalent garment from the 1860's that fit me just as well, I still wouldn't wear it, even though I have far more opportunity to dress in 1860's styles than I do 1940's. The reason why I wouldn't is because an 1860's dress would be that much more fragile and rare. As it is, if the 1940's suit shows *any* signs of stress or wear, it will stay with my other vintage clothing, unworn and cared for. That's my choice, and there's no law that says I can't do anything else with it as I see fit. I only hope most vintage clothing collectors opt for preservation and not wholesale altering and wearing. I'll shut up now... Glenna Jo Christen gwjchris@ix.netcom.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Aug 1996 18:01:35 -0800 From: "R.L. Shep" To: Bill and Glenna Christen CC: h-costume@andrew.cmu.edu Subject: Re: using vintage garments Bill and Glenna Christen wrote: > > You wrote: > > >1)...rags, half a step away from the burn pile....either of > >restoration or, failing all else, constructing authentic patterns from > >the remains. > > In this state, any use that can be made of them I'm all for as well!! > Patterns can also be taken from intact garments as well. It sure is a > lot easier to wear reproduction garments than originals. Especially > when the originals date from the eras when women were corseted most of > their lives, permanently affecting the shape of their figures.... > > >2)...plead publically for the preservation of garments from all ages > >that might otherwise be thoughtlessly discarded. > > Amen to this too! > > >And another rule: NO use of perfumes, deodorants, or ANY other > >chemicals on the body; proper undergarments REQUIRED. > > I have a problem with seeing original garments abused. Such as a woman > wearing a beautiful 1890's silk with velvet trim dress to a "Dickens > Christmas" event. Not only did it not fit the theme of the event, but > far more importantly, it did not fit her, and so was totally ruined by > the end of the first weekend. > > Fran and others may disagree with me, and that's their privilege of > course, but I find this behavior inexcusable. As she said, there are > more Edwardian white blouses out there than she could ever want, but > how many complete 1890 silk and velvet gowns are there still left, or > even rarer, an ordinary work dress from 100 plus years ago? These are > the types of garments I'm most concerned with preserving. The garments > that document different classes and walks of life. Museums change > their collections, their budgets get cut, storage space is eliminated > and artifacts are discarded, that doesn't mean the artifacts have no > further value to posterity. > > I have a wool suit from the 1940's that I wear on certain specific > occasions (following Kathleen's rules BTW.) If I had an equivalent > garment from the 1860's that fit me just as well, I still wouldn't wear > it, even though I have far more opportunity to dress in 1860's styles > than I do 1940's. The reason why I wouldn't is because an 1860's dress > would be that much more fragile and rare. As it is, if the 1940's suit > shows *any* signs of stress or wear, it will stay with my other vintage > clothing, unworn and cared for. > > That's my choice, and there's no law that says I can't do anything else > with it as I see fit. I only hope most vintage clothing collectors opt > for preservation and not wholesale altering and wearing. > > I'll shut up now... > > Glenna Jo Christen > gwjchris@ix.netcom.com This is a very serious subject. I do feel that everyone has a right to her/his opinion - but it might be wise to not be hard and fast about it. I do not agree with Fran Grimble on this issue ( and believe me I like Fran a lot, consider her a good friend, and I think she is one of the kindest and most generous people I know - but we don't see "eye-to-eye" on this issue). The worst case I know of abuse in this area is that I knew a woman who had a Fortuny dress (it was simply gorgeous). I tried to get her to donate it to a museum for a tax write-off. I even gave her the names of museums & people to contact. She said that her daughter really liked it and she had decided to give it to her. The last I heard of it, the daughter had cut off 4 inches from the bottom so she could wear it to a party and after the party it had a large cigarette burn in it and several stains. Most of the people on this list would not do that, nor would they want to see it done. But in my opinion that is not exercising one's freedom, that is being destructive. ~!~ R.L. Shep ------------------------------ End of h-costume Digest Volume 4 Issue 16 ************************************ From ???@??? Thu Aug 22 10:25:48 1996 Received: from PO2.ANDREW.CMU.EDU by mail.math.TU-Berlin.DE with SMTP id AA06054 (5.67b8/IDA-1.5 for ); Thu, 22 Aug 1996 01:35:17 +0200 Received: (from postman@localhost) by po2.andrew.cmu.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3) id TAA04607; Wed, 21 Aug 1996 19:05:18 -0400 Received: via switchmail for +dist+/afs/andrew.cmu.edu/usr7/grm/Miscell/h-costume-digest.dl@andrew.cmu.edu; Wed, 21 Aug 1996 19:05:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: from pcs32.andrew.cmu.edu via qmail ID ; Wed, 21 Aug 1996 19:04:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from pcs32.andrew.cmu.edu via qmail ID ; Wed, 21 Aug 1996 19:04:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mms.4.170.Jun.27.1996.16.34.50.sun4.41.MacMail.5.2.CUILIB.3.45.SNAP.NOT.LINKED.pcs32.andrew.cmu.edu.sun4m.412 via MS.5.6.pcs32.andrew.cmu.edu.sun4_41; Wed, 21 Aug 1996 19:04:39 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: Date: Wed, 21 Aug 1996 19:04:39 -0400 (EDT) From: Gretchen M Beck To: +dist+/afs/andrew.cmu.edu/usr7/grm/Miscell/h-costume-digest.dl@andrew.cmu.edu Subject: H-costume digest. Volume 4 Number 17 Reply-To: h-costume@andrew.cmu.edu H-costume Digest, Volume 4 Number 17 Today's Topics: Pattern book help Regency & Costume in Detail Vintage garments Fortuny dress Re:Bare breasts in 18th century? Re: Flags Respect using vintage garments (continued) 15th century women's clothing Flag preservation Re: book, vintage Re: Flags Re: using vintage garments (continued) Using vintage garments ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 21 Aug 1996 11:18:36 +1000 To: h-costume@andrew.cmu.edu From: s-randles@adfa.oz.au (Sarah Randles) Subject: Pattern book help Hello All, This is a bit off topic, but I'm hoping that some of the list members may be able to help me. Please reply to me direct if you think that it's not appropriate to the list (although I would argue that costume is just a vehicle for embroidery!) I am currently working on my Master of Arts in textile history and I have been invited to give a paper at a conference called 'Scribe, Text, Artefact', which focuses on medieval and renaissance artefacts in Australian collections. I'm hoping to do my paper on the impact of printing on embroidery, and base it on a comparative study of the printed pattern books and some 16th century embroidery and lacis held in the Na tional Gallery of Victoria and the Powerhouse Museum in Sydney. The problem is that I am finding it incredibly difficult to get hold of copies of the original pattern books. With the exception of the Vinciolo one that Dover have re-printed, the rest do not seem to be available in Australia. I have tried to order the books reprinted by Falconwood press, but I do not seem to have any success getting them to reply to my e-mails. So I'm getting quite frustrated. Can any-one tell me where to find some of these books? I am happy to buy them if I can find a supplier, but if they are out of print, I would really appreciate some photocopies. I will re-imburse postage to anyone who will send me stuff (check with me first, so I don't get multiples). As this would come under use for teaching and research, it would not count as a breach of copyright. I can provide a list of the books I'm looking for, but given that it's long I won't post it to the list. Thankyou anyone who can help. Sarah ********************************************************************* Sarah Randles email: s-randles@adfa.oz.au English Department phone: 06 268 8898 University College ADFA fax: 06 268 8899 Canberra ACT 2601 AUSTRALIA ------------------------------ From: PiranhaBB@aol.com Date: Tue, 20 Aug 1996 21:39:23 -0400 To: h-costume@andrew.cmu.edu Subject: Regency & Costume in Detail I would very much like to communicate by e-mail with someone who is familiar with both the Regency Era (clithing wise) and who has _Costume in Detail_ and/or _Englishwomen's Clothing in the 19th Century_. I have some extensive questions for this lucky person/people. Thank you, Lisa Bauer ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Aug 1996 19:06:05 -0700 From: Frances Grimble To: h-costume@andrew.cmu.edu Subject: Vintage garments Well, actually there are plenty of 1890s silk dresses in good condition on the market too. I've gotten to the stage where I go through vintage clothing shows looking at most items and thinking, "OK, another one of those." I even see mid-19th-century dresses reasonably often, and have bought items as early as the late 18th century. By the way, not every Victorian and Edwardian woman was heavily corseted. I'm a modern size (except I'm short) and have bought quite a few garments from those periods that fit perfectly (and they're not obviously matron-wear, either). I've also seen plenty that were too big in every dimension. If you either buy garments that fit you or alter them to fit, you won't ruin them by being the wrong size. In my opinion some people get much too excited about how rare and valuable all vintage clothes are. I can't say I'll ever quit buying them, but I'm starting to wish some of mine _would_ wear out. The only reason I don't sell any is that whenever I've tried, I've found out it's almost impossible to get what I paid for them. So much for value . . . Fran Grimble ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Aug 1996 19:49:09 -0700 From: Frances Grimble To: h-costume@andrew.cmu.edu Subject: Fortuny dress Robb, Considering the two Fortuny dresses I've seen for sale were priced at several thousand dollars apiece, the average collector would (a) probably not buy one and (b) have enough sense to preserve their investment if they did. Most vintage garments are not nearly as valuable. Myself, I think it is more sensible to invest large lump sums of money in mutual funds than in vintage clothes. Or at least in "real" jewelry, which is inherently much sturdier than textiles. Though I prefer not to think about how much money I've spent, cumulatively, on vintage clothes . . . I'd rather live in an atmosphere of tolerance, and respect for people's decision-making abilities, even at the expense of a few Fortuny dresses. That's more important to me. Fran ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Aug 1996 22:48:10 -0700 To: h-costume@andrew.cmu.edu From: Cin Subject: Re:Bare breasts in 18th century? >a single front-facing young >lady, wearing wispy Greek high-waisted gowns and tight-fitting round >gowns, with the breasts exposed to various degrees. Most of them wore >no trace of a flirtatious chemise ruffle for the nipples to peep out >from. The "neckline" (term used --ahem~loosely; pardon the pun!) came >to just under the nipples. The breasts of the seamstresses seemed to be >pushed up to mound above the edge of the dress, but the lone young woman >obviously wore absolutely nothing underneath her Grecian columnar gown, >--Susannah Eanes, Mantua Maker and Fine Tailoring Susannah's comments on a remembered image describe quite closely that of a fashi on plate in my personal collection on view in my dining room. With 7-bit ASCII I attempt to render the text. Quote mark & apostrope intended to be fallen accent s ague & grave respectively: "Robe de mousseline a` manches courte brode'es a` la greque. (1801)" Unlike Mme in Susannah memory, this babe seems quite proud of the, ahem, display . The nipples are clearly drawn in the etching, tho' not colored. The gown is completely white with pink embrodery on the cuff of the short sleeve. There is a very long train to the dress and she wears a cap trimmed with yellow ribbon that can only be described as "goofy". provenance: I bought the plate in Torino, Italy. The magazine it's from, "L'Eco", was fond of completely copying french fashion plates including the text. --cin home email: cin@netuser.com office email: cynthia_barnes@ptltd.com w. 408.452.6895 "Statesmanship largely consists of preventing competing nations from expressing their true feelings in the most sincere way possible. Miss Manners is only suggesting that they stop kissing other statesmen altogether -- that they practice safe protocol." --Miss Manners, _Miss Manners Rescues Civilization_, 1996. ------------------------------ To: h-costume+@andrew.cmu.edu From: iteach@slip.net (Elizabeth Pruyn) Subject: Re: Flags Date: Tue, 20 Aug 1996 23:39:13 -0700 >This is not really a costuming question, but more of a textile question. >I recently visited Annapolis and while in some of the museums I noticed >that the old flags had a kind of snake skin look to them. When I looked >closer, I realized that the look was due to stitching worked through the >entire flag. Almost like quilting. >This was really curious to me as I had never noticed such a thing done >to old flags before. My question is: Does anyone know if that >stitchign was done later to preserve the original cloth of the flag or >if that stitching was done when the flag was first made? If it was done >when the flag was first constructed, why? Decoration or utility? Hi there, Your post stirs up a dim memory of a Smithonian magazine article a few years ago about a woman in the 20's or 40's who was appalled at the condition of many of our country's historical flags and worked on conserving them. There might be a website of the magazine that could help you. Sorry I don't have more information. Yours, Elizabeth Elizabeth Pruyn iteach@slip.net Oakland, CA "If I had been around when Rubens was painting, I would have been revered as a fabulous model. Kate Moss? Well, she would have been the paint brush..." - Dawn French ------------------------------ From: Mrs C S Yeldham To: h-costume@andrew.cmu.edu Subject: Respect Date: 21 Aug 96 09:28:00 BST The terrible tale about the woman with a Fortuny dress made me wonder whether she would behave in that way towards any other antique, particularly a delicate one? Antiques continue to be used, have a look around any stately home in the UK, but are treated with respect and appropriately. I think clothes and other textiles should be treated like any other antique, appropriately to their status and state, and we don't do our area of study any favours by behaving cavalierly, which I am sure Fran does not! Perhaps I feel so differently because the period I'm interested in, the 16th century, has lost so many items over the intervening centuries. We are left with so few, unrepresentative examples, and end up gaxing at pictures, trying desperately to see where the seams are and how the various parts connect up. Those of you interested in periods where there are a lot of surviving examples don't know how lucky you are! Caroline ------------------------------ From: RMITCHELL@washjeff.edu Date: Wed, 21 Aug 1996 11:26:13 -0400 (EDT) To: h-costume@andrew.CMU.EDU Subject: using vintage garments (continued) This issue is worth more discussion. Two sides have been heard from here so far. OP>GDj3h)uf} s5T}x6B_= To: h-costume@andrew.cmu.edu Subject: 15th century women's clothing Date: 21 Aug 96 14:06:00 BST >A week or so ago, in the dicusssion about 15th century women's underpinnings, >someone (I don't have the letter anymore, sorry!) mentioned breast wrapping, >or some similar term, to explain how one might have achieved the silhouette >without stays. Would the person who wrote this please explain what this was >and how it was done? >Gail Finke >Gaelscot@aol.com I think I was the person who said this, based on something I vaguely remember reading. Does anyone else have any ideas - I'd love to hear. The 1920's wrappings were like swaddling bands around the chest, so far as I know (sounds very uncomfortable!) Caroline ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Aug 1996 09:23:39 -0700 (PDT) From: Elizabeth Fox Subject: Flag preservation To: h-costume+@andrew.cmu.edu I think the article about preserving flags, and a woman in the '20s who got involved in this, was in Piecework magazine. It was interesting. Elizabeth Fox in San Francisco ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Aug 1996 09:59:07 -0700 (PDT) From: Conrad Hodson To: Susan Fatemi cc: h-costume@andrew.cmu.edu Subject: Re: book, vintage Speaking of books, has anyone read a couple of books by Jack Finney? One is called "From Time to Time". Sorry I can't remember the title of the companion novel. One is set in the 1880's and the other is set during the voyage of the titanic. His attention to detail is remarkable. I could close my eyes and see what he was describing. I could even feel what he was describing. Let's put it this way; if he made any big mistakes I didn't notice and quite frankly didn't care. I enjoyed the stories too much to be a petty nitpicker. Give them a try and see what you think. Oh, he is also the author of "Time After Time" and (get this) "Invasion of the Body Snatchers". Go figure. Peace, Chris (the Cyborg) On Tue, 20 Aug 1996, Susan Fatemi wrote: > A while back I requested help/info on shattered silk. I don't remember if > it was this list or one of the other ones. While I still don't know what > to do about the silk, one kind soul recommended a novel called "Shattered Silk ", > (and thank you if you're reading this) that is a fun "read" for anyone > interested in the vintage trade. It's sort of a romantic mystery and very > fast paced. The author did her homework, and gives full credit to her > "advisors in vintage". > > This has a bearing on the current re-hash of museum quality vs. usage dilemma. > The characters in the book had come into possession of designer gowns as far > back as Poiret (maybe Worth, I forget) as well as "ordinary" vintage. They > offered them to the Costume Inst. and other musuems, but no one wanted them. > They decided to rotate them on display to bring attention to their shop and > rent them out for special occasions (no doubt with a hefty deposit!) but not > to sell them. (there was a mention of Sotheby's auctioning similar garments > for $$$thousands.) > > My 2c. is that to occasionally see a garment on a real moving person with > the proper accessories, etc. makes it "real", brings it to life, in a way bein g > in a glass case or on a mannequin can never do. Obviously some judgement must > be used, but you can't save *everything*, and some stuff is just going to fall > apart anyway, like the poor shattered silk. > > > Susan Fatemi > susanf@eerc.berkeley.edu > ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Aug 1996 10:13:15 -0700 (PDT) From: Conrad Hodson To: Elizabeth Pruyn cc: h-costume+@andrew.cmu.edu Subject: Re: Flags Hey, want to hear something yucky about old, worn American flags? I occasionally work for Goodswill and have several time discovered old flags in the as-is bins. These are torn, stained and faded. When I asked the manager why they were treating the flag this way I was told that Goodswill was in the business of making money only. I think this is very sad. Peace, Chris (the Cyborg) On Tue, 20 Aug 1996, Elizabeth Pruyn wrote: > >This is not really a costuming question, but more of a textile question. > >I recently visited Annapolis and while in some of the museums I noticed > >that the old flags had a kind of snake skin look to them. When I looked > >closer, I realized that the look was due to stitching worked through the > >entire flag. Almost like quilting. > > >This was really curious to me as I had never noticed such a thing done > >to old flags before. My question is: Does anyone know if that > >stitchign was done later to preserve the original cloth of the flag or > >if that stitching was done when the flag was first made? If it was done > >when the flag was first constructed, why? Decoration or utility? > > Hi there, > > Your post stirs up a dim memory of a Smithonian magazine article a few > years ago about a woman in the 20's or 40's who was appalled at the > condition of many of our country's historical flags and worked on > conserving them. There might be a website of the magazine that could help > you. Sorry I don't have more information. > > Yours, > Elizabeth > > Elizabeth Pruyn iteach@slip.net Oakland, CA > > "If I had been around when Rubens was painting, I would have been revered > as a fabulous model. Kate Moss? Well, she would have been the paint > brush..." - Dawn French > > ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Aug 1996 10:18:17 -0700 (PDT) From: Conrad Hodson To: RMITCHELL@washjeff.edu cc: h-costume@andrew.CMU.EDU Subject: Re: using vintage garments (continued) Hey!! Guys! I got it! I got it! Can we flog another horse now? Peace, Chris (the Cyborg) On Wed, 21 Aug 1996 RMITCHELL@washjeff.edu wrote: > This issue is worth more discussion. Two sides have been heard from here > so far. OP>GDj3h)uf} s5T}x6B_= so far. ne side advocates *judicious*, *appropriate* use. No irresponsible > dress-ups. No vandalizing of Fortuny gowns. The other sees any use as > vandalism. Let's start from the premiss that both sides want the same > thing: the preservation of the garment heritage and the education of the > general public about its value and how to care for it. > [further quotation deleted for brevities sake] ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Aug 1996 10:23:30 -0700 From: Frances Grimble To: h-costume@andrew.CMU.EDU Subject: Using vintage garments Lloyd/Kathleen, Sure, there are rare and valuable antique garments and there are vintage ones that are by no means rare or valuable. When the preservation issue is discussed, I'm often puzzled by people who seem to make no distinction between an 18th-century court dress and a pair of 1970s bellbottoms. Or for that matter, between an 18th-century court dress and a cheap, mass-market 1910s muslin blouse. But when the preservation issue is discussed (as when the "authenticity" issue is discussed) I'm also puzzled by people who seem to enjoy making rules and taking every opportunity to tell others to follow them. I suggest that anyone who feels this urge examine their own motives. For example, if you laboriously make an 1860s dress for a Dickens Fair, and someone else buys a fancy 1890s dress which falls apart, is your motive in pointing this out purely concern for historic preservation? As a professional writer of how-to material, I feel the proper places for education are books (or periodicals or other written material), videos (or films or other visual material), or classes (or workshops, seminars, whatever). The point I'm trying to make is, materials people have voluntarily bought or classes they have voluntarily attended for the purpose of being educated. It's offensive to thrust your views on people in a social setting (in which they seldom listen anyway). Or to dictate what they should do with their own possessions (they will do whatever they want anyway). I'm sure I've altered and worn many vintage garments that some people would think should never be altered or worn. But that's my business. I don't try to force my views on others and I expect the same courtesy from them. (And if I don't get it, I tell them to buzz off!) Sure, anything I wear out won't be preserved for posterity. But almost any action anyone takes affects the rest of society somehow. You have to make your own decisions and live out your life in the best way for you. Which may include buying a gorgeous evening dress and greatly enjoying wearing it for a few balls, rather than packing it away in a dark closet for decades. Fran Grimble ------------------------------ End of h-costume Digest Volume 4 Issue 17 ************************************ From ???@??? Fri Aug 23 10:34:35 1996 Received: from PO8.ANDREW.CMU.EDU by mail.math.TU-Berlin.DE with SMTP id AA13960 (5.67b8/IDA-1.5 for ); Fri, 23 Aug 1996 01:21:28 +0200 Received: (from postman@localhost) by po8.andrew.cmu.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3) id SAA21058; Thu, 22 Aug 1996 18:51:56 -0400 Received: via switchmail for +dist+/afs/andrew.cmu.edu/usr7/grm/Miscell/h-costume-digest.dl@andrew.cmu.edu; Thu, 22 Aug 1996 18:51:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: from pcs24.andrew.cmu.edu via qmail ID ; Thu, 22 Aug 1996 18:48:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from pcs24.andrew.cmu.edu via qmail ID ; Thu, 22 Aug 1996 18:46:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mms.4.170.Jun.27.1996.16.34.50.sun4.41.MacMail.5.2.CUILIB.3.45.SNAP.NOT.LINKED.pcs24.andrew.cmu.edu.sun4m.412 via MS.5.6.pcs24.andrew.cmu.edu.sun4_41; Thu, 22 Aug 1996 18:46:52 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: Date: Thu, 22 Aug 1996 18:46:52 -0400 (EDT) From: Gretchen M Beck To: +dist+/afs/andrew.cmu.edu/usr7/grm/Miscell/h-costume-digest.dl@andrew.cmu.edu Subject: H-costume digest. Volume 4 Number 18 Reply-To: h-costume@andrew.cmu.edu H-costume Digest, Volume 4 Number 18 Today's Topics: Dress closures in 1890s To use or not to use... fragile antique items Flat Cap Finney's novels Re: "O" bodices? Re: Irish Dress Re: To use or not to use... fragile antique items Re: Pattern book help Re: Using vintage garments Re: Hudson's Bay Blankets Using vintage garments Re:breast wrapping Re: Finney's novels ample breasted women and George III dresses ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 21 Aug 1996 12:33:27 -0500 From: Jan Rosenthal To: h-costume@andrew.cmu.edu Subject: Dress closures in 1890s I've seen references in pattern book reprints from the 1890s to closing dress bodices invisibly on the side under the arm and at the shoulder. What kind of fasteners were used? How often were dresses or waists closed at the side as opposed to down the front? Was it only children's clothing that was closed down the back? jan.rosenthal@metc.state.mn.us "Too much baking, not enough biking" ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Aug 96 19:59:40 +0200 To: h-costume@andrew.cmu.edu From: barbara@math.tu-berlin.de (Barbara Maren Winkler) Subject: To use or not to use... fragile antique items I'm not talking about clothes here but about books. Here in Berlin, there exists an excellent public historical costuming library, started by the fashion editor Josef Freiherr von Lipperheide 100 years ago or more. And it's so well protected from destruction by public use that it's only of restricted use to the public any more! No photocopies of anything published before 1950 can be made, and some things aren't given out at all, not even for viewing. And mostly they don't have reproductions to give out instead. Taking photographs (without a flash) is allowed with the books they give out, but does anyone know how to produce a real good quality reproduction by photographing? E.g. how to take a photograph of a 12 by 16 inch "Die Modenwelt" or "Journal des Luxus und der Moden" magazine page with small letters on it, such that the reproduction of the page is both whole and readable afterwards? Greetings Barbara Maren -- Barbara Maren Winkler barbara@math.tu-berlin.de ------------------------------ From: Stacey_Weinberger_at_WADSWORTH.WADSWORTH@wadsworth.com To: h-costume@andrew.cmu.edu Date: 21 Aug 96 11:10:00 Subject: Flat Cap Hi All, I am making a flat cap out of soft corduroy with a cotton lining. I will be interfacing the brim with extra heavyweight pellon. Should I interface the crown as well to avoid that floppy look and so my head won't poke up through the brim and make the rest look droopy? I have some lightweight pellon to use. Thanks for your advice in advance. I need to finish this tonight! Stacey stacey_weinberger@wadsworth.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Aug 1996 11:53:36 -0700 From: Frances Grimble To: h-costume@andrew.cmu.edu Subject: Finney's novels Jack Finney's _From Time to Time_ is the sequel to _Time and Again_. He does make mistakes in these books. Some illustrations show clothes for the wrong decade, and he could easily have found photos or drawings for the right decade in public-domain sources. Fran ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Aug 1996 13:17:57 -0700 To: h-costume@andrew.cmu.edu From: Margo Anderson Subject: Re: "O" bodices? At 07:32 PM 8/21/96 +0200, you wrote: >>.... since I am currently at work on a >>costume based on the dresses described in the sadomasochistic classic, >>"The Story of O", complete with leather collar. > >Have you traced down a precise historic period for those dresses? >... >>Barbara Maren >-- > I believe the book is actually set in the 1950's. The dress I am making is based on the ones worn by the women at Roissey, which are costumes, not period garments. They are described as 18th century in style. Given that the rest of the clothing worn at Roissey is, from the descriptions, not overly concerned with historical accuracy, I will be constructing the bodice with built in cups and other modifications for appearance. I tried a muslin of an 18th century bodice cut to reveal the nipples, and found that with the body I was working with, the look was extremely unattractive. Since I will be making this gown from a beautiful shot taffeta silk, (dark red and black) and most of the expense of materials is for the skirt, I plan to make a second, accurate, bodice so that the dress can be worn to period functions. Margo Anderson ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Aug 1996 21:57:35 -0400 (EDT) From: "Charles R. MacDonald" To: Rebecca Handcock cc: h-costume@andrew.cmu.edu Subject: Re: Irish Dress On Tue, 20 Aug 1996, Rebecca Handcock wrote: > > > An interesting summary. When reading how woven woolens were napped to > make them water-resistant, I am reminded of the historic woolen blanket I > have just purchased from the Hudson-bay company in Canada. They have been > making these for hundreds of years, and the label describes a similar > process. Apparently they were often used for their water resistant > qualities. Interesting ... Must be a "Hudson Bay Point blanket." Look close, on the label it (used to ) say made in England! Very nice, and they sell them mail order also. The 4 Point (four little stripes indicating that the original price was four pelts) is VERY cosy. No connection and all - but "its hard not to think of the bay" Charles MacDonald Stittsville Ontario cmacd@achilles.net --- Just beyond the fringe --- homepage CANADA! --> Still Number ONE, (so sez the U. N. ) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Aug 1996 22:55:10 -0400 (EDT) From: "Charles R. MacDonald" To: Barbara Maren Winkler cc: h-costume@andrew.cmu.edu Subject: Re: To use or not to use... fragile antique items On Wed, 21 Aug 1996, Barbara Maren Winkler wrote: > Taking photographs (without a flash) is allowed with the books they give > out, but does anyone know how to produce a real good quality reproduction by > photographing? E.g. how to take a photograph of a 12 by 16 inch "Die > Modenwelt" or "Journal des Luxus und der Moden" magazine page with small > letters on it, such that the reproduction of the page is both whole and > readable afterwards? Minolta used to make a small portable microfilmer. It was sold by Bell and Howel in the US. I used one of these Years ago. It has a small copy stand, with a 16mm camera on an arm.. You can chose the size of the area that it will cover, and you can have the film put in microfiche. These are Quite readable down to about 6 point type. The largest size source is about 12X16 as you sugest. Perhaps the Minolta folks could be persuaded to make a sales call on the museum? Once a microfiche is made, 30 pages worth can be copied (one Fiche) for 30 cents on Diazo film. Used viewers are avlable, or there is at least one hand unit that I have seen that sells for under 200 Bucks. The film has a MUCH longer life than most magazine paper. Charles MacDonald Stittsville Ontario cmacd@achilles.net --- Just beyond the fringe --- homepage CANADA! --> Still Number ONE, (so sez the U. N. ) ------------------------------ To: h-costume@andrew.cmu.edu, s-randles@adfa.oz.au (Sarah Randles) Subject: Re: Pattern book help Date: Wed, 21 Aug 96 22:39:38 GMT From: tigger@FastLane.NET (Kim Ann Innes) On 8/20/96 8:18PM, in message , Sarah Randles wrote: Sarah: > I am currently working on my Master of Arts in textile history and I have > been invited to give a paper at a conference called 'Scribe, Text, > Artefact', which focuses on medieval and renaissance artefacts in > Australian collections. I'm hoping to do my paper on the impact of > printing on embroidery, and base it on a comparative study of the printed > pattern books and some 16th century embroidery and lacis held in the Na > tional Gallery of Victoria and the Powerhouse Museum in Sydney. > The problem is that I am finding it incredibly difficult to get hold of > copies of the original pattern books. With the exception of the Vinciolo > one that Dover have re-printed, the rest do not seem to be available in > Australia. I have tried to order the books reprinted by Falconwood press, > but I do not seem to have any success getting them to reply to my e-mails. > So I'm getting quite frustrated. > Can any-one tell me where to find some of these books? I am happy to buy > them if I can find a supplier, but if they are out of print, I would reall y > appreciate some photocopies. I will re-imburse postage to anyone who will > send me stuff (check with me first, so I don't get multiples). As this > would come under use for teaching and research, it would not count as a > breach of copyright. I can provide a list of the books I'm looking for, > but given that it's long I won't post it to the list. I have copies of five 16th century Italian lace books. One is already cleaned up and "officially" published (it is from 1596); the other four are in the process of being cleaned up. I'll be happy to send you copies for the cost of postage and copying fees (or trade, if you can send me copies of some of the things you have). E-mail me a list of the other books you are looking for, and I will see if I have a source for any of them. Susan Evans, who runs Falconwood press, went on vacation as of the 10th of August and may not be home yet. Be aware that most of her books that contain counted-thread patterns have been re-done on a computer (they are not facsimiles). Most of her books are available from other sources; try contacting these suppliers: House Morningstar P.O. Box 20094 Houston, TX 77225 (713) 721-1941 or (713) 729-7990 FAX (713) 729-6983 Alter Years 3749 E. Colorado Blvd. Pasadena CA. 91107 (818) 585-2994 Their catalog is $5 U.S., plus shipping Potboiler Press Edward L. Eisenstein P.O. Box 30171 Columbua, MO 65205 I don't have a phone number for Potboiler Press. -- Kim (tigger@fastlane.net or tigger@cyberramp.net) For imported trim; publications on costume, embroidery, and heraldry: http://www.fastlane.net/~tigger/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Aug 1996 16:58:17 -0700 From: gwjchris@ix.netcom.com (Bill and Glenna Christen) Subject: Re: Using vintage garments To: h-costume@andrew.cmu.edu Fran... You wrote: >if you laboriously make an 1860s dress for a Dickens Fair, and >someone else buys a fancy 1890s dress which falls apart, is your >motive in pointing this out purely concern for historic preservation? What ever motive would there be? (FYI, I don't participate in Dicken's Fairs, instead I participate in living history events where historic accuracy is very important as well as give presentations on mid-19th Century clothing and social behavior.) >I feel the proper places for education are books (or periodicals... >It's offensive to thrust your views on people in a social setting. Or >to dictate what they should do with their own possessions... I agree entirely, but since this discussion is on H-Costume, and educational venue, and not in a social setting this is a moot point. Even though I cringed when I saw the ruin of the 1890's dress, I never said a word to the woman who wore it. I didn't even say "I told you so" (because I didn't tell her) when she was shocked that the skirt fabric shredded in two places and the bodice was hopelessly damaged. This is the kind of situations that concern me the most. Ignorance! She had no idea that even though the fabric looked sound, it wasn't. If you want to alter and wear your own vintage clothing, as you say, nothing anyone else says is going to change your mind. Considering your profession, you know what the risks are and are willing to take them. This isn't the case with many other people who might take your advice to heart without the knowledge to make responsible decisions. I Feel there is a big difference between wearing a mass-produced (i.e. 20th Cent.) garment and a one-of-a-kind 19 Cent. or older garment. If someone had warned the woman in the ruined dress that it would no longer hold up to use, I have no doubt she would not have worn it (It was her great grandmothers), but she didn't know. Ignorance is not bliss! >I don't try to force my views on others and I expect the same courtesy >from them. I was not trying to "force" my views on you anymore than you are trying to "force" yours. I was expressing what I consider a very valid attitude toward true vintage garments (not mass-produced '70's bellbottoms!) It seems we will have to agree to disagree, but I did want to clarify my statements before doing so, as you seem to have read more into my words than was my intent. Glenna Jo Christen gwjchris@ix.netcom.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Aug 1996 23:24:14 -0400 To: h-costume@andrew.cmu.edu From: Lynda Welch Subject: Re: Hudson's Bay Blankets (Whoa! My first posting to this group, after "lurking" for over a year! Hope I did it right!) >On Tue, 20 Aug 1996, Rebecca Handcock wrote: >>>...I am reminded of the historic woolen blanket I >> have just purchased from the Hudson-bay company in Canada. They have been >> making these for hundreds of years ... >...and Charles replied: >Must be a "Hudson Bay Point blanket." Look close, on the label it (used >to ) say made in England! > >Very nice, and they sell them mail order also. The 4 Point (four >little stripes indicating that the original price was four pelts) is VERY >cosy... When I visited Old Fort William (ex-North-West Company post) in Thunder Bay, ON, two summers ago, the guides mentioned that the number of "points" on the blanket was to indicate how many pounds of wool were used to make the blanket. Thus, a 6-point blanket would be thicker (and thus more valuable, I'm sure) than a 4-pointer. I'm not sure that they were used to indicate the number of pelts required as you said, though. What kind of pelt? And, wouldn't a pelt's value change with conditions and time? Anyone else have info on this subject? I'm now intrigued... Cheers! Lynda P.S. Yep! They still ARE made in the "home country"... Cheers! Lynda Welch (aka Scrubbietta) "There is a theory which states that if ever anyone discovers exactly what the Universe is for and why it is here, it will instantly disappear and be replaced by something even more bizarre and inexplicable...There is another theory which states that this has already happened." (D. Adams) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Aug 1996 22:03:10 -0700 From: Frances Grimble To: h-costume@andrew.cmu.edu Subject: Using vintage garments Glenna, You're reading more into _my_ message than I intended. I wasn't accusing you personally of anything. Actually, I often wear late 19th-century garments (1890s and sometimes earlier) without incurring any major problems. I'm not worried about "people who might take my advice to heart without the knowledge to make responsible decisions." I think most people are intelligent and able to make their own decisions and deal with the consequences. I doubt they're waiting for me to enlighten them on anything, or that they would blindly take my advice. Fran Grimble ------------------------------ From: "TEDDY" To: h-costume@andrew.cmu.edu Date: Thu, 22 Aug 1996 09:23:40 GMT Subject: Re:breast wrapping > I think I was the person who said this, based on something I vaguely > remember reading. Does anyone else have any ideas - I'd love to hear. > The 1920's wrappings were like swaddling bands around the chest, so far > as I know (sounds very uncomfortable!) > > Caroline Hi Caroline, and anyone else interested I believe I heard that sturdy wide-satin ribbon with hools and eyes sewn to each end were used to achieve the 1920's shape. I don't have the right bits to judge how (un)comfortable this might be. I think I can remember where I heard it. I'll check, and post details. Teddy teddy1@mdx.ac.uk Central Bibliographic Unit Middlesex University Tel No. (0181) 362 6405 If a costume's worth making, it's worth making well enough to wear for every-day ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Aug 1996 03:40:58 -0700 (PDT) From: Conrad Hodson To: Frances Grimble cc: h-costume@andrew.cmu.edu Subject: Re: Finney's novels Yeah, he made some mistakes. Who doesn't? I still greatly enjoyed the books. So, sue me for not being an authenticity maven. Peace, Chris (the Cyborg) On Wed, 21 Aug 1996, Frances Grimble wrote: > Jack Finney's _From Time to Time_ is the sequel to _Time and Again_. He > does make mistakes in these books. Some illustrations show clothes for > the wrong decade, and he could easily have found photos or drawings for > the right decade in public-domain sources. > > Fran > ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Aug 1996 05:27:28 -0500 (CDT) Date-warning: Date header was inserted by ctrvax.Vanderbilt.Edu From: loneagma@ctrvax.Vanderbilt.Edu (ally loneagle) Subject: ample breasted women and George III dresses To: h-costume@andrew.cmu.edu I'm more of a costume hobbist, and my limited time/funds has limited my "expertise" to 1100 to 1580 England. Not SCA, more Ren Fairish. All help appreciated. A friend wants a dress in George III, Pride and Predijuce genre. High waist, close fitting, low bossom. We've tried an Regency drawstring neck, close fitted high waist. Her...um...ample chest...looks...well....she said "like a slut". Does anyone have any experience in this time period. I'm willing to make her a mock up of every conceviable pattern, but short of permantently attaching a shawl and never completely pleasing her, I'm stuck. Thanks to all, Ally ************************************************************************ "Chasity always takes its toll. In some it produces pimples; in others, sex laws." Karl Kraus ************************************************************************ ------------------------------ End of h-costume Digest Volume 4 Issue 18 ************************************ From ???@??? Fri Aug 23 10:34:39 1996 Received: from PO7.ANDREW.CMU.EDU by mail.math.TU-Berlin.DE with SMTP id AA13972 (5.67b8/IDA-1.5 for ); Fri, 23 Aug 1996 01:25:53 +0200 Received: (from postman@localhost) by po7.andrew.cmu.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3) id TAA24226; Thu, 22 Aug 1996 19:07:01 -0400 Received: via switchmail for +dist+/afs/andrew.cmu.edu/usr7/grm/Miscell/h-costume-digest.dl@andrew.cmu.edu; Thu, 22 Aug 1996 19:06:58 -0400 (EDT) Received: from pcs24.andrew.cmu.edu via qmail ID ; Thu, 22 Aug 1996 19:05:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from pcs24.andrew.cmu.edu via qmail ID ; Thu, 22 Aug 1996 19:04:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mms.4.170.Jun.27.1996.16.34.50.sun4.41.MacMail.5.2.CUILIB.3.45.SNAP.NOT.LINKED.pcs24.andrew.cmu.edu.sun4m.412 via MS.5.6.pcs24.andrew.cmu.edu.sun4_41; Thu, 22 Aug 1996 19:04:56 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: Date: Thu, 22 Aug 1996 19:04:56 -0400 (EDT) From: Gretchen M Beck To: +dist+/afs/andrew.cmu.edu/usr7/grm/Miscell/h-costume-digest.dl@andrew.cmu.edu Subject: H-costume digest. Volume 4 Number 19 Reply-To: h-costume@andrew.cmu.edu H-costume Digest, Volume 4 Number 19 Today's Topics: Vintage clothing rules Respect for history in general Flags Re: ample breasted women and George III dresses using vintage garments (concluded) flags, silk "Rare" clothes; education opportunities; quote lengths Re: Using vintage garments Breast strappings ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "TEDDY" To: h-costume@andrew.cmu.edu Date: Thu, 22 Aug 1996 12:06:32 GMT Subject: Vintage clothing rules Fran wrote; I've quoted from this posting because it closely sum's up, a slightly different view of, *some* of my views on the subject. > When the preservation issue is discussed, I'm often puzzled by > people who seem to make no distinction between an 18th-century > court dress and a pair of 1970s bellbottoms. Or for that matter, > between an 18th-century court dress and a cheap, mass-market 1910s > muslin blouse. Why should they make a distinction? It's all "old-fashioned" clothes. In 100 year's time, 70's bell-bottoms may be subject to the same debate as 1890's dresses are today. > I'm also puzzled by people who seem to enjoy making rules and > taking every opportunity to tell others to follow them. Regardless of motive, whether it's concern over the "misuse" of a beautiful item of clothing, or jealousy of someone else possesing it, why should anyone feel they have the need or right to impose rules about other peoples' personal possessions? > I'm sure I've altered and worn many vintage garments that some people > would think should never be altered or worn. But that's my business. I > don't try to force my views on others and I expect the same courtesy > from them. (And if I don't get it, I tell them to buzz off!) I'm with you all the way on this one! > Sure, anything I wear out won't be preserved for posterity. But almost > any action anyone takes affects the rest of society somehow. You have to > make your own decisions and live out your life in the best way for you. > Which may include buying a gorgeous evening dress and greatly enjoying > wearing it for a few balls, rather than packing it away in a dark closet > for decades. I agree with this one too. I once shared a house with someone who had tea spilled all over the carpet by a visiting antiques dealer, because he suddenly realised the spoon he was stirring it with was Georgian-silver. He thought she didn't realise what her cutlery draw contained and started to pint out several vaulable items that happened to be on the coffee table at the time. He was most put out when her only response was, "I know, but they were made to be used, so we use them, as we do with the rest of the antiques in the house." They belong to her, and nobody - no matter how much it may break their heart to see it done, has a RIGHT to tell her that she shouldn't use them. By the same token, anyone who buys vintage clothing to wear (and "alter", including the possibility of hacking bits off - much as I shudder at the thought) has a perfect right to do so. They might photograph and take patterns from the garment before doing this, and document the details of it's unaltered state, they might not, BUT it is their right to do with it as they please. They OWN it. They have spent their money, that they earned, on this item and have a right to enjoy it in THEIR OWN way. Before anyone tries to pick this statement appart, by using an example of a weapon bought by someone who gets pleasure from killing or causing pain (several people have already tried this one!), let me point out that a) these are only MY opinions on the matter and, b) this statement stops at anything that causes physical harm to someone else or their property. The anguish of seeing other people treating vintage garments in a way you CAN'T agree with is another matter entirely... I think I'd better let my soap-box disolve here Teddy teddy1@mdx.ac.uk Central Bibliographic Unit Middlesex University Tel No. (0181) 362 6405 If a costume's worth making, it's worth making well enough to wear for every-day ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Aug 1996 09:02:17 -0400 From: Dale Loberger To: h-costume@andrew.cmu.edu Subject: Respect for history in general Dear All, Put me on the side of Mr. Shep and Glenna Jo. I was absolutely appalled at the lack of respect shown by some on this subject. Call me naove, but I THOUGHT that this list was peopled by individuals who shared a common goal: that of furthering the cause of knowledge about what our ancestors wore. How, pray tell, can this possibly be accomplished if we devour our very livelihoods? Some may claim that I come down on the preservation side of the fence and advocate constructing copies of authentic garments instead of wearing them because that is how I make MY living. I would counter with the fact that I make my living this way because I cannot bear to see people abusing and re-writing history by either wearing inappropriate renditions of garments OR by wearing authentic originals. It just so happens that I can afford to undertake this because we can live on my husband's salary; the money I make is just gravy. Very often, I spend more during any particular month on research, buying old clothing, fabrics, and trims, and books, than I take in. So much for making a living~ obviously, that isn't why I do this. I wonder seriously about someone who claims to be a historian and has such a cavalier attitude about preservation and consumption. It sounds an awful lot like what the people who ransacked the tombs of the Pharoahs centuries ago were rumored to have thought: that if they didn't take those treasures, someone else would, so they might as well before someone else did. This did not change the fact that they were thieves. Has anyone given any thought whatsoever to the fact that it is this very attitude throughout history that has contributed to the dearth of information we have about mourning attire, corsetry, maternity and nursing wear, work clothing, and that worn by slaves in the antebellum South? At one point every single family has had some of these items, and yet ~where did they all go? "Just throw that ol' wrapper out, Maggie, it's so ugly and I just want to be rid of it." "Here, Lindy, use this petticoat to cut up for some of your nine-patch." "That old rag? Use it to wipe up the hearth where I spilled some beans~ I know it's my old bedgown, I don't have any use for it now." "Why, here's Granny's old corset! Get rid of that old disgraceful thing before somebody sees it." "What is that rusty old black thing? Here, give it to the children for dress-up. They'll get a kick out of it!" Such has gone the way of the blue dress my Grandmother saved up for all one winter to be married in, the sunbonnet my Great-grandma used to wear when hanging out the laundry, the countless other articles you can probably name from your own family. It isn't the "best" attire that tells us the most about what people wore, and you can't necessarily judge this either from the photographic record or by what people saved in trunks to pass down. And yet, this everyday clothing is what is most in demand today, by living history farms and museums and people like me who need to know how things were constructed in the days before machinery overwhelmed the markets of the clothing industry, and changed how we wore what we wore, forever, by making items cheap, easily tossed aside when worn, replaceable. As a consequence, I have saved for posterity and future amusement the bell-bottom jeans and high-heeled platforms I wore in high school, two 1970's Laura Ashley dresses, the pale blue damask dress my Mother married my Father in (it's a maternity dress~ there is a story there), the tan wool "Jackie"-type suit Mom used to wear to church when I was a little girl, my great-grandmother's stained tea apron and a box of her embroidered handkerchiefs, the tiny white gloves I wore as a little girl, my Father's blue wool Navy uniform from WWII, his 50's coats, his TACKY 70's ties, his consignment store Harris tweeds. Someday someone will be glad to see this stuff, although it is far from expensive. My folks were poor. Also, I was the recipient shortly before Christmas of a garbage bag full of what turned out to be completely hand-stitched 1840's and '50's chemises, night-dresses, baby clothing, and household linens. Turns out it was headed for the dump but the person who was asked to drop it off knew about me and thought I might like to have it. Old-fashioned stuff, old junk. Has some stains, better throw it away. Even the eyelet lace is hand-embroidered, folks. Ayreshire lace. Any of you got any like it? It survived, somehow, the era during which it would have been considered "rags, " old, homemade stuff: Shameful to own, much less to wear. Gotta have some of that new, factory-made underwear, or at least something made on that newfangled home sewing machine. I pity those who cannot see the art and value of respecting antiques, especially those things we "see all the time," like those 1890's gowns you were referring to. By the way, some of us in the more rural areas do not see those things "all the time." And once, there were passenger pigeons abounding in the skies. Today, perhaps because there were so many that they were taken for granted, there are none. For the record, I live in a house built in 1878 that we recently bought with discreetly installed central air and heat, modern plumbing (original sinks and clawfoot tubs), and old wiring and light fixtures. It was built to stand over 100 years, and we believe with care, it will last another 100. (Unlike clothing, homes are made to be lived in and fall into disrepair when left vacant). We are constantly on the lookout for ways to "fix" what previously "enlightened" owners did to it by re-installing old screen doors, windows, fixtures, etc. that we found in the garage and pick up in the neighborhood at garage sales. I also serve on our local Historic District Commission as part of the design review board. I do believe in overseeing what some idiots will do to old houses in the name of "improvement." My husband, a woodworker, cringes in pain over old farmhouse tables with the legs cut off to make them suitable for use as coffee tables. Dear God, do people really not see what they do? Maybe I am a "bleeding heart conservative", to borrow a phrase, for all that. _But_, there is a vast difference between making a house livable, and wearing clothing that is not meant to be worn anymore, but studied, appreciated, carried into the future; at the very most, tried on briefly to see how it moved and to learn how it felt to wear so that you can replicate the fit, and then carefully taken off and stored. This difference, unfortunately, can never be protected with rules like the zoning laws I help to enforce that keep vinyl siding off of Italianate villas. People have to _*want*_ to take care of what they have, or please, let someone have it who will. Thank you for listening. I hope some of you learn to think. Susannah Eanes, Mantua Maker and Fine Tailoring (Susan Bridges Loberger, for Susannah's Heirloom, Ltd.) ------------------------------ From: STACEY.DUNLEAVY@EY.COM To: "h-costume(a)andrew.cmu.edu" Subject: Flags Date: Thu, 22 Aug 1996 09:23:18 -0400 I was amused at reading Chris' post, quoted below. Hey, want to hear something yucky about old, worn American flags? I occasionally work for Goodswill and have several time discovered old flags in the as-is bins. These are torn, stained and faded. When I asked the manager why they were treating the flag this way I was told that Goodswill was in the business of making money only. I think this is very sad. Peace, Chris (the Cyborg) I must agree that letting a flag decay to tatters (or be displayed 24 hours a day, seven days a week, in all types of inclement weather, becoming tattered) is a worse form of "desecration" than the few times flags have been burned for political reasons. In fact, the only proper disposal of a worn out American flag is through burning, after which the ashes must be buried. Stacey ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Aug 1996 06:30:05 -0700 (PDT) From: Katy Bishop Subject: Re: ample breasted women and George III dresses To: ally loneagle cc: h-costume@andrew.cmu.edu On Thu, 22 Aug 1996, ally loneagle wrote: > All help appreciated. A friend wants a dress in George III, Pride and > Predijuce genre. High waist, close fitting, low bossom. We've tried > an Regency drawstring neck, close fitted high waist. Her...um...ample > chest...looks...well....she said "like a slut". Does anyone have any > experience in this time period. I'm willing to make her a mock up of > every conceviable pattern, but short of permantently attaching a shawl > and never completely pleasing her, I'm stuck. Dear Ally, I remember a post some time back where it was stated that the bodice in some Empire/Regency style gowns ended above the bottom of the bust, a style that works well for larger busted women. Instead of the bodice "waist" fitting tightly just below the bust, creating the "grapefruits on a pedestal" look, the waist is a little higher and minimizes the effect of the bustline. It can make the waist appear slightly larger but the line is much more pleasing (since it also helps smooth over any tummy bulges!). I later noted that some of the characters in the recent production of Sense and Sensibility (mainly those with larger busts) wore this style to great effect. Hope this helps. Katy Bishop, Vintage Victorian vintage@netcom.com Custom reproduction gowns of the Victorian Era. ------------------------------ From: RMITCHELL@washjeff.edu Date: Thu, 22 Aug 1996 11:47:40 -0400 (EDT) To: h-costume@andrew.CMU.EDU Subject: using vintage garments (concluded) Fran and all - Sorry - didn't mean to come across sounding like another costume police division - just, instead, to indicate what it takes to use those garments with minimal damage. We didn't set the rules - nature did. But Kathleen points out that we are now into a second generation, at least, of people who have never had to think about preserving fabrics. Just wash, wear, throw away. She meets people all the time who have never used an iron, or who have never even sewn a button on. Thus the antique dealers or local museum people who would never think of putting fine china into the dishwasher, but who think nothing of displaying exquisite victorian dresses in a sunny window for long periods of time. It's not a matter of preventing people from doing what they want with their own property: rather, it has to do with heightening people's awareness of the fragility of fabric, and of what they need to do in order to continue *using* it for as long as possible - realizing that, as Glenna keeps saying, once it's gone it's gone forever, and if it's irreplacible it cannot be replaced. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Aug 1996 09:28:05 -0700 To: h-costume@andrew.cmu.edu From: Susan Fatemi Subject: flags, silk Even the Goodwill should know that the proper way to dispose of discarded and/or worn-out American flags is by burning. (not the Museum ones, of course!) Susan Fatemi susanf@eerc.berkeley,edu BTW no one asked about the shattered silk so I'll tell you anyway. I am using "vintage" kimonos to make into garments (no one knows what vintage of course) and one of them started breaking *horizontally* (which is not technically shattering) as soon as I started to stitch it. There was only enough for a vest and it was an interesting pattern so I fused lightwt. tricot interfacing to every pc. I lined it in lightweight linen and bound it in silk crepe. Looks great. Otherwise the fabric would have ended up in the trash. > >Date: Wed, 21 Aug 1996 10:13:15 -0700 (PDT) >From: Conrad Hodson >To: Elizabeth Pruyn >cc: h-costume+@andrew.cmu.edu >Subject: Re: Flags > >Hey, want to hear something yucky about old, worn American flags? I >occasionally work for Goodswill and have several time discovered old >flags in the as-is bins. These are torn, stained and faded. When I >asked the manager why they were treating the flag this way I was told >that Goodswill was in the business of making money only. I think this >is very sad. > ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Aug 1996 12:55:03 -0500 To: h-costume@andrew.CMU.EDU From: rchs@crisny.org (Lorraine E. Weiss) Subject: "Rare" clothes; education opportunities; quote lengths A selection of comments about this morning's e-mail: 1.Re: comparison of 18th C court dress to bell bottoms and mass-market muslin blouse. The bell bottoms and the 1910 mass-market blouse are part of the fashion/social history/technology stories too. Save those bell bottoms, they'll be rare enough soon! I've spent a lot of time trying to find out about working women's clothes from the 19th century (and I'm sure I'm not alone here). Many of us see value in the "everyday" items -- we all know that the court dresses are not the full story of fashion. It is just as important to save the other stuff too (what will re-enactors in 2096 do when they can't find Kathie Lee Gifford K-Mart items). 2. Re: education from books and workshops alone. Well, I do have a different view here, Fran. There are many other opportunities to make people aware of history in general, the importance of artifacts and archives and archival practices. I don't quit work when I walk out the door here. I see nothing wrong with participating in conversations, offering the information you have (and opinions too) and then letting people decide for themselves. I've lost track of the number of people who have no idea that plastic is bad stuff -- how many photo albums of family prints in magnetic pages have proudly been displayed to me, how many brides have proudly talked about the wedding gown newly stored in blue tisse and box with plastic window... People do listen and, depending on the delivery of the information, are not offended. And if the matter is not a priority for them and they leave things in plastic, I've done what I can. Not everything has to last for ever (I could get my hist. preservationist badge taken away for that), but you can make people more aware of consequences. 3. Re: length of quotes. PULEEASE! try to cut and paste the portion of a message when you are replying or, if your program doesn't allow that, paraphrase the idea in your reply. It would help if there were few or no full quotes with 2" signature lines included, please and thank you. Lorraine E. Weiss, Education Director Rensselaer County Historical Society, Troy, NY (rchs@crisny.org) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Aug 1996 10:10:46 -0800 From: "R.L. Shep" To: Bill and Glenna Christen CC: h-costume@andrew.cmu.edu Subject: Re: Using vintage garments In reading all the coments on this issue I get the feeling that some people feel someone is trying to tell them what to do. There is no way anyone can do that. The problem is one of education. People often do make intelligent choices if they have the knowledge to do so. They often make less intelligent choices if they have no idea that there could be other ways of looking at things. Costume Society of America has guidelines for the treatment of histoically importnat garments. They cannot force their members to adher to them and believe me they went through a lot of soul searching to come up with strict guidelines (I know, I was on the board for a time and this was an area I worked on). But the effect of these guidelines has meant that more and more theatre companies and museums are making copies of garments to wear. In the case of museums some used to give fashion shows to raise money and wore original garments from the collections. Many, if not all, stopped this. There were even cases where a wealthy donor would insist in removing a garment from the collection of a museum in order to wear it and "be seen" in it. Hopefully this too has stopped. I commend CSA for having the courage to publish guidelines even though a numbr of their members are in the vintage clothing business. I certainly hope that the subscribers to "h-costume" have learned from this discussion that has gone on for several days that this is an issue which needs to be thought about, that no one can force anyone to do anything (& I certainly would not want to), that there is more than one side to this issue, and that the middle ground is the best ground. ~!~ R.L. Shep ----------------------------- Date: Thu, 22 Aug 1996 11:14:43 +0100 To: h-costume@andrew.cmu.edu From: Maggie Percival Subject: Breast strappings >I think I was the person who said this, based on something I vaguely >remember reading. Does anyone else have any ideas - I'd love to hear. My immediate reaction to this was to check in Willett and Cunnington's "History of Underclothes" and sure enough - there it was mentioned with a footnote which said that the information had been obtained from Kelly and Schwabes "History of Costume and Armour". Now whilst I have read this book I do not have a copy of it so I have no idea where they got this piece of information from. If anyone has a copy could you check to find out - I'd also be quite interested to find out if this practice really did happen and how it was achieved. > >The 1920's wrappings were like swaddling bands around the chest, so far >as I know (sounds very uncomfortable!) It might not be as bad as you think. Before I had children I was quite a busty person and had to use a ballet bra for ballet classes. Although the fabric used has some elasticity it does flatten the breasts - and it really is not that uncomfortable - and makes things more comfortable for things such as jumps and leaps. > Maggie Percival ------------------------------ End of h-costume Digest Volume 4 Issue 19 ************************************ From ???@??? Fri Aug 30 09:39:31 1996 Received: from PO8.ANDREW.CMU.EDU by mail.math.TU-Berlin.DE with SMTP id AA20889 (5.67b8/IDA-1.5 for ); Fri, 30 Aug 1996 04:12:06 +0200 Received: (from postman@localhost) by po8.andrew.cmu.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3) id TAA21726; Thu, 29 Aug 1996 19:14:16 -0400 Received: via switchmail for +dist+/afs/andrew.cmu.edu/usr7/grm/Miscell/h-costume-digest.dl@andrew.cmu.edu; Thu, 29 Aug 1996 19:14:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: from pcs28.andrew.cmu.edu via qmail ID ; Thu, 29 Aug 1996 19:11:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: from pcs28.andrew.cmu.edu via qmail ID ; Thu, 29 Aug 1996 19:10:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mms.4.170.Jun.27.1996.16.34.50.sun4.41.MacMail.5.2.CUILIB.3.45.SNAP.NOT.LINKED.pcs28.andrew.cmu.edu.sun4m.412 via MS.5.6.pcs28.andrew.cmu.edu.sun4_41; Thu, 29 Aug 1996 19:10:53 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <0m9WBxS00iVG8DG7k0@andrew.cmu.edu> Date: Thu, 29 Aug 1996 19:10:53 -0400 (EDT) From: Gretchen M Beck To: +dist+/afs/andrew.cmu.edu/usr7/grm/Miscell/h-costume-digest.dl@andrew.cmu.edu Subject: H-costume digest. Volume 4 Number 22 Reply-To: h-costume@andrew.cmu.edu H-costume Digest, Volume 4 Number 22 Today's Topics: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 25 Aug 1996 15:30:12 -0400 (EDT) To: h-costume@andrew.cmu.edu From: "Penny E. Ladnier" Subject: Blue Jeans I just finished my internship in the costume collection at the Valentine Museum in Richmond, Virginia. The collection has over 35,000 items, one of the largest in the south. The dates are from the 1700's to present day. Think about this: I completely rehoused the men's costumes from 1780 to present day. I remarked to the curator that the museum does not have bell-bottomed blue jeans from the sixties and seventies. She said, "We do not have them because everyone wore their blue jeans to threads." This was our idea of fashion at the time, mass production or not. Makes you wonder why we have a hard time finding certain garments from history. But one collection from what we called "The Dandy of the Seventies" was a pair of suede patchwork bell bottoms in excellant condition. We called them "Link's Mod Squad Pants" or "The Jackson 5 pants". This man's donation contained 144 items from 1970-1994. It contained 20 designer suits, a full length suede coat, silk scarves to match the jewels his wife would wear, 5 coats, etc... I worked on it for three weeks. This was only 1/3 of his wardrobe. The rest of it went to the Met and FIT. If in one of these locations, ask to see the Jay Barr collection. It is well worth it! Another collection, nicknamed "The Dandy of the Sixties" had an unusual tie made of about fifty colored (real) feathers. This too, was a vast collection of designer items. I worked in the seventies selling men's clothing in better department stores. These collections have been preserved in excellant conditions. These garments looked like they came right off the racks. My point: Several twenty year old employees at the museum were fascinated to see the clothing we wore in such good condition. One thirtish woman cried to see the "Link pants" because they reminded her of the pants she dearly loved in the seventies. The future generations deserve to see what we wore to learn from it. Before working this internship, I have worn my designer wedding dress to several occasions. My reasoning was, that I paid so much for it, I wanted to get my money out of it. I have five sons, no daughter to wear a wedding dress. My sixth child was a girl. My dress will probably not be in any condition for her to wear. I regret it now. I have seen garments from the sixties and seventies hung on wood hangers or stored in attics and molded. The only thing they are good for now, are the patterns or silhouette images. Mass produced or not, doesn't mean it will be here for our children. Penny E. Ladnier, Virginia Commonwealth University s0peladn@erols.com Http://www.geocities.com/BourbonStreet/2157 Pennies from Heaven, where it's always reigning money,or at least my kids think so. $ $ $ $ $ $ $ $ $ $ $ $ $ $ $ $ $ $ $ $ $ $ $ $ $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 25 Aug 1996 18:04:14 -0700 From: Frances Grimble To: h-costume@andrew.cmu.edu Subject: Blue jeans Well, as someone said this horse is probably dead but--I think saving everyday modern mass-produced garments for posterity when you could be getting good value by wearing them out, is silly! I would prefer to live for now rather than the future. As I've mentioned, I'm not a museum. In any case, what guarantee do you have that, when you die, your heirs will treasure your acid-free-tissue-wrapped 1970s jeans instead of donating them to Goodwill? There really truly are lots of 1970s clothes on the vintage market. I'm not interested in them myself, since I wore them in the 1970s, but some people are. Any museum that really wants to build up their collection should have no problem finding them. Fran Grimble http://www.best.com/~lavolta/dance/index.htm ------------------------------ From: "Cindy Abel" To: h-costume@andrew.cmu.edu Date: Mon, 26 Aug 1996 08:04:06 CDT Subject: Re: 17th c "doublet" jacket I impulsively bought 5 1/2 yards of hunter green jaquard fabric on sale yesterday. The fabric is 60" wide and I hope to get a skirt and 17th c doublet "jacket" out of it as a Christmas dress and for RenFaire next year. I plan on adapting one of two patterns Janet Arnold has in her "Patterns of Fashion, 1550-1620" My question is two-fold. 1)Are there adult-sized patterns already out there for these women's doublet jackets and 2)All the women's jackets both existing and in portraits I've seen are linen with multicolored embroidery. Any evidence for these jackets being of the same material as the skirt as men's doublets are the same as the breeches? . Many thanks for any help Cindy Abel Health Sciences Library Creighton University 2500 California Plaza Omaha NE 68178-0400 Phone: 402-280-5144 Technology is wonderful only when it works correctly ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Aug 1996 09:09:20 -0400 From: Dale Loberger To: h-costume@andrew.cmu.edu Subject: Apologies to the List To all who were offended by my cantankerous observations, my most heartfelt apologies. Dale says I can't use his mail if I can't learn to behave myself. From now on, I am merely a gentle follower of the beacon~ ;-) Sincerely, Susannah Susannah Eanes, Mantua Maker and Fine Tailoring (Susan Bridges Loberger, for Susannah's Heirloom, Ltd.) "We are only the trustees for those that come after us." -William Morris ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Aug 1996 11:47:43 -0400 To: h-costume@andrew.cmu.edu From: mhamilto@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (Marsha Hamilton) Subject: Dress closures in 1890s I have a beautiful magenta silk waist from the 1890's with a closure up the side. The neck piece wraps around to the side as well to hide the fasteners. It is closed with black metal hooks and eyes. The extreme cut of this waist is very fashionable. Underarm/side closures were also popular in the 1950s. I remember how hard they were to get in and out of. But the advantage is that the front and back of the garment can have more design detail without being interrupted by closures. Marsha >I've seen references in pattern book reprints from the 1890s to closing >dress bodices invisibly on the side under the arm and at the shoulder. >What kind of fasteners were used? How often were dresses or waists >closed at the side as opposed to down the front? Was it only children's >clothing that was closed down the back? > >jan.rosenthal@metc.state.mn.us >"Too much baking, not enough biking" > ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Aug 1996 11:47:47 -0400 To: h-costume@andrew.cmu.edu From: mhamilto@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (Marsha Hamilton) Subject: Platform shoes / clothing ghost story I love it! I also saved a pair of platform shoes, an Afghan blouse and vest with mirrors and a few 60-70s pieces. So few textiles survive compared to what was created because they were reused (very economical) or the rag pickers sold them for making rag paper (up to the mid-19th century). Nowdays, they end up at the Salvation Army/Goodwill, reused until the last trip to the dump. I was at an exhibit recently where people passed up fancy outfits to gawk at a faded homemade cotton wrapper, not because it was gorgeous but because they are so seldom seen. ***** I have a family story. Perhaps ghosts have an opinion on preservation too. Following my grandmother's death at the age of 91 a few years ago, my aunt took almost everything down to her home in Tennessee. My uncle was tearing up my grandmother's white cotton dresses to tie tomatoes to stakes in the garden. During this task, he saw a woman in white through the window of the garden shed. Thinking it was my aunt, he called to her. When no one appeared, he went into the shed which he found empty. After walking up to the house, he found my aunt in the kitchen (not wearing white) who assured him she had been washing dishes the entire time. It was only then that he realized that the white dress the woman in the shed was wearing was the now-torn rag he held in his hand and the woman's face was not that of his wife but of her recently deceased mother. Perhaps she was saddened to see her dresses being treated so badly. :-) Marsha ............. It is just as >important to save the other stuff too (what will re-enactors in 2096 do >when they can't find Kathie Lee Gifford K-Mart items). ------------------------------ From: ches@io.com Date: Mon, 26 Aug 96 12:36:29 PDT Subject: ARCHIVES FYI To: h-costume@andrew.cmu.edu ..o0*0o.. Several of you have written to me about the archives. Although I voluteered to house them I do not have them. Here are the two sites that have them at the moment taken from Diane's old posts. The first is still working, I do not know about the second one. 1) > http://reality.sgi.com/pdc/h-costume/index.html 2) >Those of you needing archives after closing, today, can get them courtesy >of the generosity of Eric Praetzel . He's >placed them all on his ftp site for easy access: > You'll find the old archives in ece.uwaterloo.ca under > pub/jpeg/h-costume (anonymous ftp). They'll be safe there > for a while. -- Eric >Bye! See you in cyberspace! >-- >Diane Close >I'm at lunch today. :-) >July 1st, reach me c/o pdc@netcontents.com Lady Chiara Ciao @}\ Known World Academy of the Rapier: Ches @}----`--,-- http://www.io.com/~ches/rapier.html @}/ ------------------------------ To: h-costume@andrew.cmu.edu Subject: using vintage clothing Date: Mon, 26 Aug 1996 22:50:53 +0200 From: Harri Kulju Just thought I'd throw in my 2 kronor on the issue of using vintage clothing... :-) I don't think that anyone is arguing against the *legality* of wearing or cutting up and reusing or destroying vintage garments; yes, the owners have every *legal right* to do this. BUT, that doesn't necessarily mean that doing so is a good idea. Nor am I a member of the "authenticity police" just because I say to someone "oh, please be careful with that; it's very fragile!" I am Archivist by profession (albeit an unemployed one right now :-() and my educational background (B.A. in History & Anthro.)on- the job training, and ongoing reading of the professional literature make me very conscious of just *how* delicate that "old stuff" can be. I can't begin to count the number of times I've heard comments along the lines of "oh, golly, if I'd only known...that it was so fragile...that it was something important...that there are mice in my attic...that mold grows on things stored in plastic bags (you're not sealing in freshness when you store clothes in plastic garment bags, you're sealing in moisture, mold spores, etc.)..." I don't think that any of the people were stupid, they just didn't have the info. to make good choices about how to preserve their family/organizational/company records (papers, photos, cassettes, ledgers...you name it). The very first archival collection I ever processed consisted of the papers of an upperclass woman's club in Charlotte, NC. Minute books and other papers going back to the 1890's had been stored for decades in the basement of their clubhouse regardless of the high water table and humidity in Charlotte. They would still be there today if a History grad. student hadn't decided to research women's clubs and started to dig around in the "boxes of junk" in the cellar. The club members were amazed to learn that the moldy cardboard boxes contained the life story of their club & they were very happy to donate the materials to the University of NC at Charlotte manuscripts collection. There they were cleaned, put in acid-free folders in acid-free boxes, stored in a climate-controlled vault, etc. The club members would almost certainly have donated the materials years earlier "if only they'd known..." Believe me, most conservation/preservation professionals are NOT trying to force anything on anybody. We *can't* make people take our *advice* and *I* certainly wouldn't force anyone to follow my recommendations even if I did have the power to do so. We are just trying to be helpful! Erin Winslow e88hk@efd.lht.se NOTE: this is my SOs account & neither he nor Lund University is in any way responsible for anything I say. Believe me, its better this way! :-) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Aug 1996 22:52:13 -0400 To: h-costume@andrew.cmu.edu From: Andy Songal Subject: Is this everyday dress? Many contributors to this net have alluded to the value and scarcity of "everyday clothes" from the 19th century. I want to know if a dress I have from the 19th century falls under this category. It is cut princess-style, buttons down the front, coat sleeves, high collar, slight train, 10" pleated flounce of self-fabric applied to entire bottom of skirt. Fabric is a stiff scratchy wool (not nappy). Black background with small scattered red flowers. Entirely lined with checked cotton. No boning. Is this an everyday dress? Are these dresses hard to find? Kathy ------------------------------ From: Jafath@aol.com Date: Tue, 27 Aug 1996 00:06:49 -0400 To: h-costume@andrew.cmu.edu Subject: Re: circular knitting needles Some time back, there was discussion on this list about the origin and development of the circular knitting needle. I just came back from a flea market with a whole box of _all-metal_ needles. Some are solid, some have a section of "flex cable." They range from size 1 to size 5, and from 10.5 inches to 29 inches long. Anyone interested in sharing this trove with me, e-mail me at jafath@aol.com. Even I (knitting addict) can only use _so_ many needles! Jo Anne ------------------------------ Subject: Victorian Wedding To: h-costume@andrew.cmu.edu Date: Tue, 27 Aug 1996 02:53:04 -0700 (PDT) From: "Georgia" Hello all, I have been reading the costume digest and would like to ask for your help with information regarding a Victorian wedding. I am planning on as accurate a wedding as possible, but I am having a difficult time with books for the "How to do" such as: Etiquette, dinner, invitations, seating arrangements, music, etc. I would appreciate anyone's personal favorites, or sources. I have a few books on dresses, but I just can't seem to find the other information that is vital to accuracy... Thank you for your help, --Georgia ------------------------------ From: "TEDDY" To: h-costume@andrew.cmu.edu Date: Tue, 27 Aug 1996 12:52:04 GMT Subject: 1920s bust wrapping. I remembered where I heard the bit about 1920s bust wrapping! The quote was: "..our 20's figures forced flat bu bust bodices of lengths of stout satin ribbon, 12 inches wide, fastened at the back with strong hooks and eyes." It was said by Joyce Grenfell. I have a copy of "Joyce Grenfell requests the pleasure". It's an abridged recording of her autobiography which she read in a series of broadcasts on Radio 4 and has some lovely descriptions of clothing. Incidently, "Darling Ma" (the book of her letters to her mother, covering most of the 1930s and early 40s) has some choice descriptions of clothing bought, made and passed on around several relatives/friends at the time of writing, if anyone's interested in these little details. Teddy teddy1@mdx.ac.uk Central Bibliographic Unit Middlesex University Tel No. (0181) 362 6405 If a costume's worth making, it's worth making well enough to wear for every-day ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 Aug 1996 08:53:26 -0400 (EDT) From: Kelly A Rinne Subject: Re: Dress closures in 1890s To: Marsha Hamilton Cc: h-costume@andrew.cmu.EDU I also hae something similar in style, that has an interior waist tape with the maker and the date 1898 embossed on it.(Picked it up for a dollar at a rummage sale) It had been used as a theatre costume, and came with a history of some of the actresses who had worn it. The collar comes over the gigot sleeve and down the front and oer to hide the side closure. Hope this helps Kel On Mon, 26 Aug 1996, Marsha Hamilton wrote: > I have a beautiful magenta silk waist from the 1890's with a closure up the > side. The neck piece wraps around to the side as well to hide the > fasteners. It is closed with black metal hooks and eyes. The extreme cut > of this waist is very fashionable. Underarm/side closures were also > popular in the 1950s. I remember how hard they were to get in and out of. > But the advantage is that the front and back of the garment can have more > design detail without being interrupted by closures. > Marsha > > >I've seen references in pattern book reprints from the 1890s to closing > >dress bodices invisibly on the side under the arm and at the shoulder. > >What kind of fasteners were used? How often were dresses or waists > >closed at the side as opposed to down the front? Was it only children's > >clothing that was closed down the back? > > > >jan.rosenthal@metc.state.mn.us > >"Too much baking, not enough biking" > > ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 Aug 1996 10:27:21 -0400 To: h-costume@andrew.cmu.edu From: mhamilto@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (Marsha Hamilton) Subject: preserving the past As an academic librarian, I'm also trained in the mindset of conservation and preservation. I read an article recently about the expansion of the Mummy Room in the Cairo Museum. It mentioned Tutankamen's mummy is not on display because it was damaged when Howard Carter ripped it to get at the gold jewelry. So sad, isn't it. To have survived intact until the 1920s only to be damaged by someone who dearly loved the very objects he was damaging. We too can damage historical objects when our desires and love blind us to their fragility. I want to assist in carrying objects intact into the future. Some future person may cut them up for doll clothes but I have chosen to try to assist some textiles through the underground railroad to the future. I also encourage people to interview and tape older relatives and friends because personal history disappears with each elderly relative who passes away. The past is a foreign country and I love to travel. We can choose to pick sometime to give to the future; oral histories, writing our own diaries, saving and documenting family photos, preserving textiles, whatever. Or we can remain silent while the Schliemanns and Carters tear up ancient sites in search of gold or when Disney wants to make Civil War battlefields into theme parks or when Walden Pond is threatened with a condo development. (Sorry for soap boxing.) Marsha >I am Archivist by profession (albeit an unemployed one right now >:-() and my educational background (B.A. in History & Anthro.)on- >the job training, and ongoing reading of the professional literature >make me very conscious of just *how* delicate that "old stuff" can >be. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 Aug 1996 10:27:19 -0400 To: h-costume@andrew.cmu.edu From: mhamilto@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (Marsha Hamilton) Subject: Re: 17th c "doublet" jacket The Folk Wear Bolivian Milkmaid jacket is a good pattern for a 17th century woman's jacket. If you want more of a doublet effect, make the sleeves detachable (put round buttonholes at the top of the sleeve and around the jacket armhole so sleeves can be laced on or off as desired) and lengthen the jacket an inch or two. Either line with buckram or other stiffening or Just bone the seams. When I do 17th century, I put 5 yards just in the skirt. You might do this in muslim first to make sure you have enough fabric. There is ample portrait evidence for a jacket and skirt of the same material. The embroidered jackets (like the Lytton jacket at the Victoria and Albert) were popular but not universal. Portraits more commonly show matching fabric for bodice and skirt. Good luck. Marsha >I impulsively bought 5 1/2 yards of hunter green jaquard fabric on >sale yesterday. The fabric is 60" wide and I hope to get a skirt and >17th c doublet "jacket" out of it as a Christmas dress and for >RenFaire next year. I plan on adapting one of two patterns Janet >Arnold has in her "Patterns of Fashion, 1550-1620" My question is >two-fold. 1)Are there adult-sized patterns already out there for >these women's doublet jackets and 2)All the women's jackets both >existing and in portraits I've seen are linen with multicolored >embroidery. Any evidence for these jackets being of the same >material as the skirt as men's doublets are the same as the breeches? ------------------------------ End of h-costume Digest Volume 4 Issue 22 ************************************ From ???@??? Fri Aug 30 09:39:28 1996 Received: from PO9.ANDREW.CMU.EDU by mail.math.TU-Berlin.DE with SMTP id AA20588 (5.67b8/IDA-1.5 for ); Fri, 30 Aug 1996 01:37:39 +0200 Received: (from postman@localhost) by po9.andrew.cmu.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3) id TAA24325; Thu, 29 Aug 1996 19:26:04 -0400 Received: via switchmail for +dist+/afs/andrew.cmu.edu/usr7/grm/Miscell/h-costume-digest.dl@andrew.cmu.edu; Thu, 29 Aug 1996 19:26:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from pcs28.andrew.cmu.edu via qmail ID ; Thu, 29 Aug 1996 19:24:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: from pcs28.andrew.cmu.edu via qmail ID ; Thu, 29 Aug 1996 19:24:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mms.4.170.Jun.27.1996.16.34.50.sun4.41.MacMail.5.2.CUILIB.3.45.SNAP.NOT.LINKED.pcs28.andrew.cmu.edu.sun4m.412 via MS.5.6.pcs28.andrew.cmu.edu.sun4_41; Thu, 29 Aug 1996 19:24:18 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: Date: Thu, 29 Aug 1996 19:24:18 -0400 (EDT) From: Gretchen M Beck To: +dist+/afs/andrew.cmu.edu/usr7/grm/Miscell/h-costume-digest.dl@andrew.cmu.edu Subject: H-costume digest. Volume 4 Number 23 Reply-To: h-costume@andrew.cmu.edu H-costume Digest, Volume 4 Number 23 Today's Topics: Re: Respect for history in general Preserving the past Renaissance and Ragtime Dance Classes in San Francisco Bay Area Re: H-costume digest. Volume 4 Number 20 Re: H-costume digest. Volume 4 Number 17 Help! Removing Stockholm Tar on Linen Footwear of the Middle Ages Vintage clothes, again Pennyroyal Vintage clothes and morals ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 27 Aug 1996 11:38:14 -0400 From: Dale Loberger To: h-costume@andrew.cmu.edu Subject: Re: Respect for history in general You wrote: >Taking this to its logical conclusion, I should never throw out anything >because future generations may find it interesting. >I live in a 75+ year old house, old >for this area. It's had its share of improvements and "improvements" over >the years: should I restore it to what_I_think_is_original? (Not likely - >I've seen the original paint job) Or do I try to keep to the spirit of the >original design by the extending the better design elements? I opt for the >latter. Why are the tastes of whoever remodeled in the 50s better or worse tha n >the one who did it in the 30s? Both were reflective of their times. >I have my limits: I have no qualms about using my antique glass for special >occasions, but my more fragile quilts are only occasionally brought out when >the cats are safely out of the area. I don't collect vintage clothes because >I'm not running a museum, and I don't have the storage for things I won't >wear. As for other people wearing them - it depends: how old are the clothes, >what condition, how are they cared for, how rare. It's too big a category: >are you going to lump 1970s bell-bottoms with Regency ball gowns? I have been trying to be quiet and let others have their say but I have to respond to this. I have gotten a lot of private slaps on the wrist (in addition to the ones posted to the list) for speaking out on this subject as I did last week. While I may have been a little forceful in my rhetoric, I in no way did what a lot of you have been doing, as evidenced by this type of argument, which I copied above merely as a very typical example of what has been flying back and forth. You guys are "logically" jumping to the conclusion that I advocate saving every polyester rag that comes by. If I had meant save everything, I would have said SAVE EVERYTHING. I did not, and I Do Not. By the way, if Chris the Cyborg and anyone else is writhing in disgust over this smelly old carcass, please skip this post, and any others with the same subject. I don't recall ever asking anyone to not write about anything on this list; as I remember there are *thousands* of members. It is unrealistic to expect only 5 or 6 posts - or even 15 or 20 - on an issue of this magnitude. Thank you for your patience. In the interest of clearing the air, I submit the following: I am painting my 118 year old house a trio of painted lady blues with white; originally it was dark brown with med. brown trim. I thought this was ugly and the blues with white picked out the gingerbread and drillwork much better. Most historic commissions give a lot of latitude on non-permanent changes like paint color. One notable exception: Historic Williamsburg. The point that many of you refuse to see, and are purposely misunderstanding so that you can get up on your politically correct "middle of the road" soapboxes is that I personally believe that treating a rare vintage piece like a sale item you bought last week at Gimbel's is disrespectful and selfish in the extreme. However, we all seem to have a different opinion on what constitutes "rare and vintage." Vive la difference. I was advocating that we try and be careful with old things, clothing in particular, since that is what we are concerned with here, and consider future utility and the interest they may generate someday before just destroying them or treating them carelessly. I used examples to illustrate that this was true not just of special occasion clothing such as my Grandma's wedding gown, but common everyday items that may be taken for granted, such as my Great Granny's sunbonnet. This is my OPINION, not a RULE I want to impose. I think I am entitled to my opinion, and I don't think it's going to harm anybody if I have one. *Obviously,* since I too use old family china and silver and live in a house furnished exclusively with either old wood or reproductions lovingly made for us by Dale (that he very well expects to pass down to future generations), I believe that it's OK to use things that were meant to be used. I am also guilty of giving old clothing to my kids to play dress up in. The unusual textures and bright colors give them joy and set their imaginations flying. I try to use something called Common Sense in selecting the fate of items I don't want anymore, and items that have seen better days or are no longer fashionable. I also don't have unlimited storage space, but that is why I pass on _some_ vintage things that are given to me (for some reason a lot of people think I want their old stuff) to a vintage clothing dealer friend of mine. (SURPRISE!) This same dealer passes on very old and rare things to a local museum, that is very glad to receive them, small local museum budgets being what they are, and she takes a tax deduction for the donation. Wonder if anyone else on this list has considered doing this as a way of trimming a VAST clothing collection? Note I said Small Local Museum, not the Smithsonian~ if you don't have one of those nearby, please let me know because I can certainly put you in contact with some. Somebody who wrote mentioned that they once enjoyed the niceness of the people on this list. I, too, used to enjoy this list because of the spirit of helpfulness among the members and usefulness of the information. Although there were a few people who wrote to say they personally agreed with me, I can't say it has been pleasurable this week. I may have been wrong in making my original comments so forceful, but I was expressing a genuine alarm at an overly cavalier attitude among certain members of a group of people who were supposed to care about history. I think that is a valid concern. Now, before any more of you jump down my throat for stating THIS little counter-offensive, ask yourself if what you say is really going to add to this edifying discussion, or is it just designed to one-up someone? Now, I have said my piece. If no one else provokes me, I may just shut up this time. Susannah Eanes, Mantua Maker and Fine Tailoring (Susan Bridges Loberger, for Susannah~s Heirloom, Ltd.) "We are only the trustees for those that come after us." -William Morris ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 Aug 1996 12:34:25 -0700 From: Frances Grimble To: h-costume@andrew.cmu.edu Subject: Preserving the past I'm not saying nothing should be preserved. I'm saying not everything can be preserved, nor should it be. I'm also not saying that no one should be a museum curator or archivist, or that these are not worthwhile professions. Just that not everyone should be, or can be. Curators are professionals. Vintage clothing dealers and collectors are amateurs at some things curators do. Such as cleaning, repairs, and putting clothes on mannequins. They also do other things, such as alter vintage clothes, wear them, and put on fashion shows. These activities have their own value, at least to the people who pursue them. Most people just buy and wear modern clothes and have no interest in historic ones. They have other professions and amateur pursuits. That is as it should be. It's unreasonable and unnecessary to ask everyone to follow your professional practices (and even imply they are unethical for not doing so), just because everyone wears clothes. Some people say that unsolicited advice is appreciated. This has seldom been my experience when giving it, even though the advice is well meant. And--understand I'm not pointing fingers here--advice is not always given for purely altruistic reasons. It can be given to bolster your own beliefs. To prove you know more than others. Or from a desire to control others' actions (I don't understand this desire and think it is unrealistic, but some people have it). I think I'm intelligent and well educated. I make a conscious effort to think through my decisions, not just to follow what other people say and do. Frankly, I sometimes doubt the intelligence and decision-making abilities of individuals I encounter. But it would be arrogant and unrealistic of me to doubt those abilities of the world in general. And to assume everyone lives in need of my unsolicited advice. Even though I make my living by dispensing information and advice; anyone who reads it has explicitly solicited it. Fran Grimble http://www.best.com/~lavolta/dance/index.htm ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 Aug 1996 12:55:01 -0700 From: Frances Grimble To: h-costume@andrew.cmu.edu Subject: Renaissance and Ragtime Dance Classes in San Francisco Bay Area The East Bay Vintage Dance Society holds classes every second and fourth Saturday of the month, from 10:30 a.m. to 12:30 p.m., in Berkeley, California. They are taught by Allan Terry and Frances Grimble. In September and October we will teach ragtime dance, including hesitation waltz and cakewalk variations we researched from silent films. Other dances taught will include tango, maxixe, Castle walk, and Castle schottische. On November 9 there will be a special workshop in Renaissance dance. The Greater Bay Area Costumer's Guild is giving a Shakespearean feast that evening. The conjunction of dates is actually coincidental, but people may be interested in attending both events. At the workshop we will teach a late 16th-century Italian balletto, which we researched from the original manual, that we believe is seldom taught in the SF Bay Area. The workshop will include steps, figures, and styling. We suggest you wear dance shoes with soft, flexible soles and no heels. All classes are held at: St. John's Presbyterian Church 2727 College Avenue, Room 203 Berkeley, CA Ample free parking is available. Regular classes are $6/person; the Renaissance workshop is $8/person. No partner is required. Frances Grimble http://www.best.com/~lavolta/dance/index.htm ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 Aug 1996 13:39:20 -0700 To: h-costume@andrew.cmu.edu From: willow@recreating-history.com (The Polsons) Subject: Re: H-costume digest. Volume 4 Number 20 >From: Elaine Pedersen >Subject: 17th Cent. Gypsy Costume > >I have just received a request for information on 17th century gypsy >costume from a woman who is a middle eastern dancer and will be >performing at a local Renaissance event. Can any one suggest references >sources she may be able to use? Hey, in issue #4 of Recreating History magazine we have a complete article on historic middle eastern dress... so if she changes her mind on the gypsy thing (could be hazardous when encountering the Puritans...), I do have a historically accurate source with illustrations for traditional middle eastern clothing. Good luck! 8-) ********************************************** Willow Polson....willow@recreating-history.com Recreating History magazine ..."Historic Crafts, Cooking, and Clothing"... ----> http://www.recreating-history.com <----- Call us toll free! 1-(888) REENACT (733-6228) ********************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 Aug 1996 13:39:15 -0700 To: h-costume@andrew.cmu.edu From: willow@recreating-history.com (The Polsons) Subject: Re: H-costume digest. Volume 4 Number 17 >>I recently visited Annapolis and while in some of the museums I noticed >>that the old flags had a kind of snake skin look to them. When I looked >>closer, I realized that the look was due to stitching worked through the >>entire flag. Almost like quilting. > >>This was really curious to me as I had never noticed such a thing done >>to old flags before. My question is: Does anyone know if that >>stitchign was done later to preserve the original cloth of the flag or >>if that stitching was done when the flag was first made? If it was done >>when the flag was first constructed, why? Decoration or utility? >I think the article about preserving flags, and a woman in the '20s who >got involved in this, was in Piecework magazine. It was interesting. >Elizabeth Fox Hey, I tried to find that issue, but like most things around the house, it's disappeared. I'm pretty sure it was in Piecework too, since I checked the last year's worth of Smithsonians (I actually have a bin for those!), but found no mention of that topic. It was within the last year, so you might check for back issues of Piecework at a needlework store or give them a call. I remember the article because it was so fascinating and I had just gone to the Smithsonian and seen the original Star Spangled Banner. From what I recall of the article, she saw the condition of these historic flags, including the fragile state of the Star Spangled Banner, and decided to do something about it. She and a small army of needleworking women began stitching the original flags, some of them little more than shredded rags, onto cleaned, neutral Irish linen as a backing material. They were very careful to lay the original flag out on the linen on a huge table, carefully placing each scrap and reconstructing the form, then started at one end and stitched the flag to the linen with a running stitch, sometimes replacing missing elements (like stars) by suggesting them with stitches on the bare linen. So the "snakeskin" flags you saw in Annapolis were probably her work - yet another historic chapter in the life of that flag! 8-) ********************************************** Willow Polson....willow@recreating-history.com Recreating History magazine ..."Historic Crafts, Cooking, and Clothing"... ----> http://www.recreating-history.com <----- Call us toll free! 1-(888) REENACT (733-6228) ********************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 Aug 1996 21:08:45 -0400 To: h-costume@andrew.cmu.edu From: corbie@radix.net (Corbie) Subject: Help! Removing Stockholm Tar on Linen Since someone else asked for help removing stains from linen... I have a prized pair of linen pants that I got Stockholm tar on (it's a light brown tar, a mixture of pine tar and boiled linseed oil used in shipbuilding -- it might have had some japan dryer in the mix too). Can someone tell me how to get this stuff out of the pants? I got the stain in them one day several summers ago at the rededication of an old sailing ship that my husband and I volunteer on... Thanks, Mara Riley @__________________________________________ @Q: "How many Vorlons does it take to screw in a lightbulb?" @A: "Yes." @ @Mara Riley, Corbie@radix.net or Kevin Riley, Lindo@radix.net ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 Aug 1996 20:31:52 -0500 (CDT) From: "I. Marc Carlson" To: h-costume@andrew.cmu.edu Subject: Footwear of the Middle Ages The latest version of this text is now in place and available at "http://www.pbm.com/~lindman/Carlson". Marc Carlson (Still working on Medieval Hats...) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 Aug 1996 18:29:09 -0700 From: Frances Grimble To: h-costume@andrew.cmu.edu Subject: Vintage clothes, again What's selfish about spending your own money and using your own possessions however you wish? They legally--and morally--belong to you. I've said this before but--donating vintage clothing to a museum does not guarantee its preservation. Museums do preserve some donations, but others are sold for money the museum can put to better use. I've bought clothing--with the museum tags still on--that came from both major art museums and small historical societies. My father buys for me at estate auctions and other venues in Pennsylvania, where he lives. He recently went to a big two-session yard sale where a historical society was "cleaning out their closets"; mostly Victorian and Edwardian items. There's nothing wrong with this. Museums can't preserve everything and they need cash to function. And their sales have made some spectacular and early items available to me. My instructions to my husband in case of my death (a long time off, I hope!) are to take my collection to a local auction house where other collections have sold for very high prices. Items will then be available to museums, collectors, dealers, or whoever else wants them. And in the (hopefully many) intervening years, I'll no doubt continue buying items whether or not I have room for them. When something I really want is for sale I assume I'll store it somehow. . . Eventually we'll probably have to buy a bigger house. Fran Grimble ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 28 Aug 1996 12:04:11 +1000 To: h-costume@andrew.cmu.edu From: s-randles@adfa.oz.au (Sarah Randles) Subject: Pennyroyal I was very interested to read the account of pennyroyal as a cleaning agent for textiles. The only thing that concerns me is the potential on-going effects of the pennyroyal on the textile. If the oil is strong enough to break down the dirt etc, might it not also continue to break down the fibres on the textile? Was there any attempt to rinse the oil out of the fabric? I'd really like to get on the list that this was originally posted to - could the sender please let me know what it is and how to subscribe? Thanks, Sarah (Masters student in textile history) ********************************************************************** Sarah Randles email: s-randles@adfa.oz.au English Department phone: 06 268 8898 University College ADFA fax: 06 268 8899 Canberra ACT 2601 AUSTRALIA ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 Aug 1996 19:09:11 -0700 From: Frances Grimble To: h-costume@andrew.cmu.edu Subject: Vintage clothes and morals The other thing I want to say is, some people seem to assume that even if they cannot possess all vintage clothing, that they are somehow its guardians. That they know better than others what is "right" for our culture as a whole. I disagree. I am intrigued by attempts to claim that wearing vintage (and even modern) clothing is unethical by comparing it to genuinely unethical and illegal activities--theft and grave robbery (though if an archaeologist does it, it's not grave robbery). These are invalid analogies. There is absolutely nothing unethical or illegal about buying vintage clothes on the open market with your own money and using them any way you choose. Owning an object is not taking it from someone else--even though you both can't own or use it at once. A museum, or a collector who wishes to preserve a collection, has no more "right" to vintage clothes than any other buyer. Our culture as a whole has many legitimate, ethical activities and goals. These sometimes conflict, but that's the way it is. Fran Grimble ------------------------------ End of h-costume Digest Volume 4 Issue 23 ************************************ From ???@??? Sat Aug 31 15:03:22 1996 Received: from PO7.ANDREW.CMU.EDU by mail.math.TU-Berlin.DE with SMTP id AA25928 (5.67b8/IDA-1.5 for ); Sat, 31 Aug 1996 01:09:36 +0200 Received: (from postman@localhost) by po7.andrew.cmu.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3) id TAA23625; Fri, 30 Aug 1996 19:01:52 -0400 Received: via switchmail for +dist+/afs/andrew.cmu.edu/usr7/grm/Miscell/h-costume-digest.dl@andrew.cmu.edu; Fri, 30 Aug 1996 19:01:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: from pcs25.andrew.cmu.edu via qmail ID ; Fri, 30 Aug 1996 18:59:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: from pcs25.andrew.cmu.edu via qmail ID ; Fri, 30 Aug 1996 18:59:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mms.4.170.Jun.27.1996.16.34.50.sun4.41.MacMail.5.2.CUILIB.3.45.SNAP.NOT.LINKED.pcs25.andrew.cmu.edu.sun4m.412 via MS.5.6.pcs25.andrew.cmu.edu.sun4_41; Fri, 30 Aug 1996 18:59:12 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: Date: Fri, 30 Aug 1996 18:59:12 -0400 (EDT) From: Gretchen M Beck To: +dist+/afs/andrew.cmu.edu/usr7/grm/Miscell/h-costume-digest.dl@andrew.cmu.edu Subject: H-costume digest. Volume 4 Number 24 Reply-To: h-costume@andrew.cmu.edu H-costume Digest, Volume 4 Number 24 Today's Topics: Re: Hudson Bay Blankets Re: Pennyroyal Re: Pennyroyal Anglo-Saxon - 10th C.; Byzantine, 10th C. Re: Pennyroyal Re: Pennyroyal Vintage clothes and morals Anglo-Saxon and Byzantine Costuming - 10th C Vintage Clothes and Morals Re: Pennyroyal RE: Scorch Marks Re: Hudson Bay Blankets pennyroyal book on textile preservation? Firefighters' Uniforms Re: how do I unsub?... + off-topic drivel ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 27 Aug 1996 21:48:11 -0500 (CDT) To: h-costume@andrew.cmu.edu From: Rick Balen Subject: Re: Hudson Bay Blankets To Lynda, & the list members, Have you ever given the wrong answer to a question when you knew the correct one? I have. I should have listend to the saying "warning start brain before opening mouth". The correct answer is. The original intent of the point lines on the blanket was both to show the price in "made beaver" as well as the size and quality. That was the intent, but because of the nature of the trade, the price varied in different locations, and with competition. In the book "Where Two Worlds Meet" and "Roots" both by the Minnesota Historical Society, show two price list from 1804 that list a 3 point blanket at 4 & 5 "made Beaver". Maybe now I can get some sleep? Rick Balen Votre humble & domestique ob=E9issant M. Cotton ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 28 Aug 1996 07:46:09 -0500 To: h-costume@andrew.cmu.edu From: Gary Stephens Subject: Re: Pennyroyal All of what Sarah Randles said about pennyroyal, I echo. I'd really like to find out more about this, as I am a somewhat modest restorer of embroidery. My thanks. Lorina J. Stephens author of _Touring the Giant's Rib_ & _Credit River Valley_ http://web.idirect.com/~canuck/stephens/stephen.html ------------------------------------------------------------ assistant editor, art director Maple Syrup Simmering: Canada's Online Literary 'Zine Summer Issue now available! http://web.idirect.com/~canuck/canzine.html ------------------------------ date: Wed, 28 Aug 96 8:29 From: joe@imr.usa.com (Joe Cook) to: "mail@ih {h-costume@andrew.cmu.edu}" Subject: RE: Pennyroyal With all of this wonderful discussion on the effects of Pennyroyal oil on the preservation of fabrics, I feel the need to state a very necessary reminder. Ladies, be VERY careful when using Pennyroyal oil. Lauded in historical folk medicine as the substance that "brings on the bleeding," be sure to take every precaution not to come in contact with the stuff when using it for fabric preservation. ------------------------------ From: "Beth + Dallas Bardot" To: h-costume@andrew.cmu.edu Date: Wed, 28 Aug 1996 13:22:35 +0000 Subject: Anglo-Saxon - 10th C.; Byzantine, 10th C. I, too, am interested in Anglo-Saxon costuming in the 10th C (thanks for the info on Owen-Crocker!), but with a weird twist. My husband's persona is a mercenary in the Varangian (sp?) Guard of the Byzantine emperor - hence, I also need information regarding Byzantine costume and materials of the same era (I don't see why an AS housewife wouldn't make AS garb from Byzantine materials, if she had them, or vice versa, does anyone else?) I have a book published by Moongate Designs - _Fashion at the Center of the World_, by Veleda of Isenfir, (c) 1986 - does anyone know if this has been updated, or if it is a reliable source? It seems to be well-researched to me, but I'd appreciate input from anyone else who's got it. In the Anglo-Saxon vein, I have a book (self-published) by Terry Bond of Arvonia, VA, (c) 1987, entitled _Arthurian Costume: Clothing in Post-Roman Britain, A.D. 400-550_. My question is, did the garb change much in the next 500 years or so? Or was the next major fashion change linked to the Norman invasion? Also, can anyone comment on the quality of the research and conclusions drawn therefrom? On a separate, but also SCA-related note, does anyone know what happened to Seams Like Old Times? I sent $5 for a subscription several years ago, and was told that the newsletter was in hiatus, but would return 'after Pennsic', and have never heard anything more. Is it dead? Thanks for all of your (anticipated) help, and for providing such an entertaining list! Beth Bardot bardot@cris.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 28 Aug 1996 14:05:03 -0500 To: h-costume@andrew.cmu.edu From: Gary Stephens Subject: RE: Pennyroyal >Ladies, be VERY careful when using Pennyroyal oil. Lauded in >historical folk medicine as the substance that "brings on the bleeding," be >sure to take every precaution not to come in contact with the stuff when >using it for fabric preservation. I apologize for being a tad obtuse here; but does that folk remedy refer to menstruation cycles, or caustic qualities regarding topical use? If it's the latter, then certainly I would not use it in any restoration. If it hurts my hands, then it has to hurt the embroidery. Lorina J. Stephens author of _Touring the Giant's Rib_ & _Credit River Valley_ http://web.idirect.com/~canuck/stephens/stephen.html ------------------------------------------------------------ assistant editor, art director Maple Syrup Simmering: Canada's Online Literary 'Zine Summer Issue now available! http://web.idirect.com/~canuck/canzine.html "Nobody told me that living happily ever after would be such hard work ..." S. White O- ------------------------------ From: Noelle_Nicol@dgii.com (Noelle Nicol) To: garys@flexnet.com (Gary Stephens), h-costume@andrew.cmu.edu Date: Wed, 28 Aug 1996 13:51:18 -0500 Subject: RE: Pennyroyal >From what I remember of my (brief) explorations in herbal pharmacology, pennyroyal oil was actually used in *very* small doses as an abortive agent. Even a very slight overdose can be toxic enough to be fatal. In short, do be extremely careful in handling pennyroyal. YIS Lyssandre Mac Kenzie ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 28 Aug 1996 17:21:38 -0400 To: h-costume@andrew.cmu.edu From: mhamilto@MAGNUS.ACS.OHIO-STATE.EDU (Marsha Hamilton) Subject: Vintage clothes and morals >There is absolutely nothing unethical or illegal about >buying vintage clothes on the open market with your own money and using >them any way you choose. Owning an object is not taking it from someone >else--even though you both can't own or use it at once. This was a very interesting sentence which I pondered for a long time. I have mixed feelings because I enjoy using objects but am a preservationist by nature. Let me preface this by saying my musings are of a philosophical nature. They don't refer to any person(s) living/dead on/off this list. It's hypothetical. I wish to pose some extreme analogies. If I were the wealthiest person on earth and bought every Ming vase in existence, and were I then to smash them all to bits, would that be unethical? It is certainly not illegal. But wouldn't I be doing something unethical by depriving the future and others in the present of ever seeing a Ming vase? What if I bought up all gypsy artifacts and destroyed them because a brain tumor caused me to believe gypsy culture must be destroyed to save the planet? Would that be unethical? What if I bought every available medieval manuscript page I could find to burn because I believed people of those times were ignorant savages? If some believe this is unethical (although not illegal), the question is why? Because it deprives the future? Because my motivations are flawed by prejudice? Most of us want to save the "really" special and unique items but some do not necessarily want to save the poor, damaged, more common or nondescript examples. This this a question of space, money, practicality, rarity? Is it a question of volume? Is it that desiring items be used in the present outweighs future concerns? Each of us has a line (which undoubtedly varies widely) about what is sacrosanct and what is expendable. I wonder what factors put it on one side or the other? Marsha (pensive, as usual) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 28 Aug 1996 19:11:22 -0400 To: h-costume@andrew.cmu.edu From: Andy Songal Subject: Vintage Clothes and Morals Further consideration regarding the wealthiest person who bought all the Ming Vases on earth....rather than destroy them, he carefully stored them using only the best conditions, never displayed them for fear of damaging them...no one was allowed to see or touch them. They could be seen only in photographs. They were preserved but unseen. Kathy ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 28 Aug 1996 16:22:41 -0700 (PDT) From: Heather Rose Jones To: h-costume@andrew.cmu.edu Subject: RE: Pennyroyal On Wed, 28 Aug 1996, Gary Stephens wrote: > >Ladies, be VERY careful when using Pennyroyal oil. Lauded in > >historical folk medicine as the substance that "brings on the bleeding," be > >sure to take every precaution not to come in contact with the stuff when > >using it for fabric preservation. > > I apologize for being a tad obtuse here; but does that folk remedy > refer to menstruation cycles, or caustic qualities regarding topical use? > If it's the latter, then certainly I would not use it in any restoration. > If it hurts my hands, then it has to hurt the embroidery. According to traditional herbal lore (e.g. Culpepper's), pennyroyal tea is supposed to promote menstruation, even to the point of helping expel "a dead child". A more modern herbal on my shelves, which takes care to point out hazards, suggests that pregnant women (who wish to remain that way) should not ingest pennyroyal (although it is not specifically mentioned as an abortifacient, so the effect must be mild). There is nothing to say where breathing concentrated pennyroyal oil would have any similar effects. Concentrated essential oils are often skin irritants, even when normally considered "harmless"; and similarly can be very overpowering to breath when concentrated. When I'm stripping dried lavendar flowers, I often get headaches from the fumes! So with this in mind, I'd say it wouldn't be a _bad_ idea to wear latex gloves and work in a well-ventilated place _whoever_ you are. And if you want to be extra-paranoid, and you're pregnant (or think you might be), consult with your doctor before using pennyroyal oil. Not all traditional herbal remedies have any basis in fact, but many do. Heather Rose Jones ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 28 Aug 1996 16:56:00 -0700 From: gwjchris@ix.netcom.com (Bill and Glenna Christen) Subject: RE: Scorch Marks To: h-costume@andrew.cmu.edu You wrote: >Please, please do clutter up the list with information about how to >remove scorch marks. I'd like to know the answer... The answer that I received that worked very well was to dampen a clean coth with hydrogen peroxide, lay it over the scorched area and press with a warm iron. Since my collar was of linen and only mildly scorched it worked like a charm! I was warned this method is only guaranteed for cotton or linen. I'm not sure what will work for other materials or badly scorched stuff. Thanks for the replies! Glenna Jo Christen gwjchris@ix.netcom.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 28 Aug 1996 20:22:49 -0400 (EDT) From: "Charles R. MacDonald" To: Rick Balen cc: h-costume@andrew.cmu.edu Subject: Re: Hudson Bay Blankets On Tue, 27 Aug 1996, Rick Balen wrote: > The original intent of the point lines on the blanket was both to show the > price in "made beaver" as well as the size and quality. > > That was the intent, but because of the nature of the trade, the price > varied in different locations, and with competition. > > In the book "Where Two Worlds Meet" and "Roots" both by the Minnesota > Historical Society, show two price list from 1804 that list a 3 point > blanket at 4 & 5 "made Beaver". In history their are not really "wrong" answers, it is just hard to get "universal" right ones. Summary of the Blanket thread.. HB "Point Blankets" are Very Nice (and expensive) They are made in England to an Old HBC specification. The dark short lines on the edge are called Points The points at one time represnted the Price in "Made Beaver". One Made Beaver was a trading value used by the HBC. It could be a fine beaver Pelt, or the equivent in other materials brought in to trade at the posts. The more points the better the blanket. Inflation was present in the 1700-1800 period. > Maybe now I can get some sleep? > Rick Balen But you might miss a chance to answer another question... 8-> Charles MacDonald Stittsville Ontario cmacd@achilles.net --- Just beyond the fringe --- homepage CANADA! --> Still Number ONE, (so sez the U. N. ) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 28 Aug 1996 21:22:46 -0400 (EDT) From: "Charles R. MacDonald" To: Historical Costume list Subject: pennyroyal I got curious about this pennyroyal stuff, and good old Altavista turned this reference up on the first page from a site in the perdue.edu domain. PENNYROYAL Labiatae Mentha pulegium L. Source: [1]Magness et al. 1971 Pennyroyal is very similar in plant habit and culture to the other [2]mints. The plant is prostrate and much branched, with small, round-oval leaves about an inch long. The leaves, either dried or fresh, are sometimes used for flavoring. The flavor of pennyroyal is more pungent and less agreeable than [3]peppermint or spearmint. Oils of pennyroyal are obtained by distillation of the entire plant, as with the mints. Pennyroyal is grown more in northern Europe than in the U.S. No data are available on U.S. production, as it is included with other mints. Last update March 11, 1995 by [4]AS As Always, Your milage may vary.. I would love to see an MSDS if anyone has one mind you. I did not save the URL, but I am sure that altavista can find it fairly Quick. Charles MacDonald Stittsville Ontario cmacd@achilles.net --- Just beyond the fringe --- homepage CANADA! --> Still Number ONE, (so sez the U. N. ) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 28 Aug 1996 18:32:00 -0700 To: h-costume@andrew.cmu.edu From: drkangel@sirius.com (Laura Nunemaker) Subject: book on textile preservation? Does anyone have a suggestion for a good book on textile preservation, cleaning, storage, etc? I'm looking for a main reference book to add to my library. Thanks Laura drkangel@sirius.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 28 Aug 1996 23:36:17 -0400 (EDT) To: h-costume@andrew.cmu.edu From: aquazoo@dcez.com (Ed Safford & Carol Kocian) Subject: Firefighters' Uniforms A friend of mine restores old firetrucks. He asked me if I had any information about firefighters' uniforms. We know that some were wearing working class (civilian) clothing of the time. Does anyone have any information on uniforms? My friend was not very specific on a time period. He is interested in firefighting of all eras. Thanks! -Carol Kocian *^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^* This account is shared by Carol Kocian and Ed Safford. Carol can also be e-mailed at ckocian@epe.org Ed can be reached at ecsaffor@ingr.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Aug 1996 02:47:41 GMT From: db-cos@westmore.demon.co.uk (David Brewer) To: h-costume@andrew.cmu.edu Subject: Re: how do I unsub?... + off-topic drivel In message The Evil Temptress w rites: > I tried everything I could think of, including h-costume-request..... > nothing has worked.... > > Sorry, guys, but I'm just not advanced enough to understand most of what > goes on here...... The list is hand-moderated, which means that unsub messages go via a human (the list owner, one Mrs. Beck) who adjusts the list in some manner to remove you. The process is therefore fallable and may take some time, depending on whether said owner is absent or present from her workplace. This seems entirely possible, as no official list-owner comment has appeared regarding the lamentable tide of self-indulgent and *off- topic* drivel regarding vintage clothing, morality, house-painting, ming vases etc. etc. -- David Brewer ------------------------------ End of h-costume Digest Volume 4 Issue 24 ************************************ From ???@??? Sat Aug 31 15:03:25 1996 Received: from PO7.ANDREW.CMU.EDU by mail.math.TU-Berlin.DE with SMTP id AA25960 (5.67b8/IDA-1.5 for ); Sat, 31 Aug 1996 01:29:13 +0200 Received: (from postman@localhost) by po7.andrew.cmu.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3) id TAA24061; Fri, 30 Aug 1996 19:16:07 -0400 Received: via switchmail for +dist+/afs/andrew.cmu.edu/usr7/grm/Miscell/h-costume-digest.dl@andrew.cmu.edu; Fri, 30 Aug 1996 19:16:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: from pcs25.andrew.cmu.edu via qmail ID ; Fri, 30 Aug 1996 19:14:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: from pcs25.andrew.cmu.edu via qmail ID ; Fri, 30 Aug 1996 19:13:58 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mms.4.170.Jun.27.1996.16.34.50.sun4.41.MacMail.5.2.CUILIB.3.45.SNAP.NOT.LINKED.pcs25.andrew.cmu.edu.sun4m.412 via MS.5.6.pcs25.andrew.cmu.edu.sun4_41; Fri, 30 Aug 1996 19:13:58 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: Date: Fri, 30 Aug 1996 19:13:58 -0400 (EDT) From: Gretchen M Beck To: +dist+/afs/andrew.cmu.edu/usr7/grm/Miscell/h-costume-digest.dl@andrew.cmu.edu Subject: H-costume digest. Volume 4 Number 25 Reply-To: h-costume@andrew.cmu.edu H-costume Digest, Volume 4 Number 25 Today's Topics: Museum Deaccessioning RE: Pennyroyal vintage clothing analogies RE: Pennyroyal RE: Pennyroyal Re: book on textile preservation? Re: Vintage clothes and morals wool supplier Footwear of the Middle Ages, take 2 Re: Firefighters' Uniforms Book fr UK Re: Anglo-Saxon and Byzantine Costuming - 10th C textile conservation books Re: Firefighters' Uniform Books vintage clothing debate: a proposal The dead horse stinking up those vintage clothes ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 28 Aug 1996 23:36:23 -0400 (EDT) To: h-costume@andrew.cmu.edu From: aquazoo@dcez.com (Ed Safford & Carol Kocian) Subject: Museum Deaccessioning Yes, museums do sell their excess (or unwanted donations of) costumes to vintage clothing dealers. As makers of historic costume, we (h-costume list members) will come in contact with originals, or "vintage clothing". Having listened to some museum personnel, I have this information to offer. One museum was given a box of lace that had been made by the donor's grandmother. They had plenty of lace fragments already. So they could accept the donation and then sell it to a vintage lace dealer. The donor probably thought the lace was going to be preserved. He should have bought himself an acid free box and some archival tissue paper, wrapped the lace up, and put it away to be enjoyed by future generations of his family. I hardly think a small box of lace would pose a storage problem for him. Museums are frequently offered Christening gowns. There are lots of them around, in very good condition. Again, it would be best for a family to store such a thing themselves if they think it's an important item. It's more important to the family in most cases than it is to a museum. I came into posession of a late 19th- or early 20thC corset that was purchased from a vintage clothing shop. It was unworn and had its original price tag. Thinking it was pretty spiffy, I called the costume curator at the Smithsonian to see if they wanted it. They did, so I donated it. If they didn't want it, a small university collection was interested. A friend had a dress from the 1880's that was made for an ancestor's wedding. Some of his relatives were DAR members. He offered the dress to the DAR museum, and they were happy to accept it. If they had turned it down, I would have suggested that he offer it to a smaller collection or store it himself. The moral of this story is, Ask before donating. If it's your great-grandmother's 1910 mass produced shirtwaist, store it yourself. Your family will probably enjoy something owned by an ancestor far more than the same item in a vintage clothing store. You may want your own "study collection" of originals to learn from and share with your friends. -Carol Kocian *^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^* This account is shared by Carol Kocian and Ed Safford. Carol can also be e-mailed at ckocian@epe.org Ed can be reached at ecsaffor@ingr.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Aug 1996 00:21:21 -0400 (EDT) To: h-costume@andrew.cmu.edu From: aquazoo@dcez.com (Ed Safford & Carol Kocian) Subject: RE: Pennyroyal Joe Cook said, >With all of this wonderful discussion on the effects of Pennyroyal oil on >the preservation of fabrics, I feel the need to state a very necessary >reminder. Ladies, be VERY careful when using Pennyroyal oil. Lauded in >historical folk medicine as the substance that "brings on the bleeding," be >sure to take every precaution not to come in contact with the stuff when >using it for fabric preservation. Lyssandre Mac Kenzie said, >>From what I remember of my (brief) explorations in herbal pharmacology, >pennyroyal oil was actually used in *very* small doses as an abortive agent. >Even a very slight overdose can be toxic enough to be fatal. > >In short, do be extremely careful in handling pennyroyal. Yes, one can drink it as a tea made from the leaves as an abortive agent. It can also be taken orally in the oil form for the same purpose. It will be most effective VERY early on, such as within one week of the missed period. I'll give the dosage I've heard just so people don't decide to experiment with it and injure themselves. (It can cause death or simply destroy kidney function with misuse.) Three drops, two times a day, for three days. The oil on skin has been used as an insect repellant. Sometimes it's used for a flea repellant on dogs and cats. I've heard that it's safe on the skin for most people, but is NOT RECOMMENDED for pregnant women who want to stay pregnant. In another story, a group of women who camped together used pennyroyal for insect repellant. They found that many had their periods a few days early. Pennyroyal tea has also been used to relieve menstrual cramps. I've used a mild pennyroyal tea to wash (rinse, really) wool before spinning. Theoretically it rinses out the dirt & sheep sweat while leaving in the lanolin. I would suggest the tea for washing textiles (can't vouch for antiques!!!) rather than the oil because the oil won't mix well with water. The leaves are available at most herb shops. That's it for my font of pennyroyal knowledge. Thanks for the reminders of its dangers! -Carol *^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^* This account is shared by Carol Kocian and Ed Safford. Carol can also be e-mailed at ckocian@epe.org Ed can be reached at ecsaffor@ingr.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 28 Aug 1996 21:34:51 -0700 To: h-costume@andrew.cmu.edu From: Steven Geringer Subject: vintage clothing analogies Although I agree with Frances that wearing one's own vintage clothing is not the same as the analogies of grave robbing, etc. I much prefer to compare the wearing of vintage clothing as one buying a Model A Ford and then taking it to participate in a destruction derby. Sure, it's YOUR car and YOU can do what you want with it, but is YOUR idea the only one that matters??? How about posterity? But then, there are those who believe that as long as they get their wear out of vintage apparel, who cares what the future generations know. I love people who feel they have the allmighty knowledge as to what is vintage. Remember that the average college student was born between 1974 and 1979. These students did not live through either miniskirts or hot pants, much less older apparel. When I share pieces from only 2-3 decades ago with students, they are so fascinated and appreciative. Just because it was mass-produced does NOT mean that it isn't important for our current and future generations. Just my .02 cents, Susan Geringer, historic costume professor ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Aug 1996 01:32:37 -0700 (PDT) From: Conrad Hodson To: Gary Stephens cc: h-costume@andrew.cmu.edu Subject: RE: Pennyroyal On Wed, 28 Aug 1996, Gary Stephens wrote: > >Ladies, be VERY careful when using Pennyroyal oil. Lauded in > >historical folk medicine as the substance that "brings on the bleeding," be > >sure to take every precaution not to come in contact with the stuff when > >using it for fabric preservation. > > I apologize for being a tad obtuse here; but does that folk remedy > refer to menstruation cycles, or caustic qualities regarding topical use? > If it's the latter, then certainly I would not use it in any restoration. > If it hurts my hands, then it has to hurt the embroidery. Don't worry about your embroidery; the stuff isn't caustic. It _is_ however, an abortifacient--and the "bleeding" that it brings on refers to a menstrual period that had been _late_. Pennyroyal is also a fairly potent insect repellent--the active ingredient in a lot of herbal flea collars. Pregnant women might consider waiting until _after_ delivery before cleaning up that old garment. Inducing abortion generally called for a lot of the stuff, taken internally, but if it's a wanted pregnancy, why take chances? Conrad Hodson (really me this time, not Chris) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Aug 1996 11:03:52 +0100 (BST) From: Dorothy Stein Subject: RE: Pennyroyal To: Gary Stephens Cc: h-costume@andrew.cmu.edu > but does that folk remedy > refer to menstruation cycles, or caustic qualities regarding topical use? It refers to abortion, a pretty caustic topic, then and now. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Aug 1996 09:39:55 -0500 To: h-costume@andrew.cmu.edu From: Gary Stephens Subject: Re: book on textile preservation? >Does anyone have a suggestion for a good book on textile preservation, >cleaning, storage, etc? I'm looking for a main reference book to add to my >library. While not strictly a reference book, I would recommend a book put out by the Getty Foundation called something like, _Conservation of Embroidered & Tapestries_. It is a collection of essays written for a convention of conservators held in Europe and the information in those essays is simply invaluable. Also, a contact at a textile conservatory in Massachusetts (sp?, sorry) wrote me the following: keep an eye out for a textile conservation book by Sheila Landi published by Butterworth's of London. She didn't know the title of the book of hand, but recommended it highly. Myself, I haven't searched this out yet. Lorina J. Stephens author of _Touring the Giant's Rib_ & _Credit River Valley_ http://web.idirect.com/~canuck/stephens/stephen.html ------------------------------------------------------------ assistant editor, art director Maple Syrup Simmering: Canada's Online Literary 'Zine Summer Issue now available! http://web.idirect.com/~canuck/canzine.html ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Aug 1996 08:48:17 -0800 From: "R.L. Shep" To: Marsha Hamilton CC: h-costume@andrew.cmu.edu Subject: Re: Vintage clothes and morals . > > I wish to pose some extreme analogies. If I were the wealthiest person on > earth and bought every Ming vase in existence, and were I then to smash > them all to bits, would that be unethical? It is certainly not illegal. > But wouldn't I be doing something unethical by depriving the future and > others in the present of ever seeing a Ming vase? What if I bought up all > gypsy artifacts and destroyed them because a brain tumor caused me to > believe gypsy culture must be destroyed to save the planet? Would that be > unethical? What if I bought every available medieval manuscript page I > could find to burn because I believed people of those times were ignorant > savages? > > If some believe this is unethical (although not illegal), the question is > why? Because it deprives the future? Because my motivations are flawed by > prejudice? > Most of us want to save the "really" special and unique items but some do > not necessarily want to save the poor, damaged, more common or nondescript > examples. This this a question of space, money, practicality, rarity? Is > it a question of volume? Is it that desiring items be used in the present > outweighs future concerns? Each of us has a line (which undoubtedly varies > widely) about what is sacrosanct and what is expendable. I wonder what > factors put it on one side or the other? > > Marsha (pensive, as usual) I am sure that this is what Hitler would have ultimately done with all of the Jewish art/artifacts, etc. that he had collected and sent to Prague. If he had won he would have destroyed them along with all the Jewish peoplehe could get his hands on. ~!~ R.L. Shep ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Aug 96 15:55:01 UT From: "Rebecca Plummer" To: h-costume@andrew.cmu.edu Subject: wool supplier I am trying to find a really good supplier of wool for Civil War uniforms. Does anyone have any good suggestions? I would like to find good wool, but also good prices. Thanks in advance, Rebecca ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Aug 1996 11:15:17 -0500 (CDT) From: "I. Marc Carlson" To: h-costume@andrew.cmu.edu Subject: Footwear of the Middle Ages, take 2 I made a slight error in typing the URL for this site, and left out the final slash. The following addresses should take you to the same site: "http://www.pbm.com/~lindahl/carlson/" "http://www.pbm.com/~lindahl/carlson/SHOEHOME.HTM" I apologize for any inconvenience. Marc ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Aug 1996 13:47:55 -0800 To: h-costume@andrew.cmu.edu From: fsbks@mcn.org (Fred Struthers) Subject: Re: Firefighters' Uniforms Book fr UK > A friend of mine restores old firetrucks. He asked me if I had any >information about firefighters' uniforms. We know that some were wearing >working class (civilian) clothing of the time. Does anyone have any >information on uniforms? My friend was not very specific on a time period. >He is interested in firefighting of all eras. > > Thanks! > -Carol Kocian We carry a Shire book from the UK called FIREMEN'S UNIFORM by Brian Wright. This covers England only but may be of some help for parallels in fashions. Fred Struthers BOOK ON CLOTH email: fsbks@mcn.org ------------------------------ To: h-costume@andrew.cmu.edu Subject: Re: Anglo-Saxon and Byzantine Costuming - 10th C Date: Thu, 29 Aug 1996 13:49:30 -0700 From: Snookles > I, too, am interested in Anglo-Saxon costuming in the 10th C (thanks > for the info on Owen-Crocker!), but with a weird twist. My husband's > persona is a mercenary in the Varangian (sp?) That's the right spelling. > Guard of the Byzantine > emperor - hence, I also need information regarding Byzantine costume > and materials of the same era (I don't see why an AS housewife > wouldn't make AS garb from Byzantine materials, if she had them, or > vice versa, does anyone else?) If a 10th C Anglo-Saxon woman had Byzantine material and wanted to make an Anglo-Saxon dress, definitely not. There's two clauses there, though. One, how would she have gotten the fabric? England is quite a ways from the Eastern Roman Empire. If you assume that she has left England for somewhere warmer, then she would wear the local clothing. This is the same even in present day; a Vietnamese immigrant to the U.S. wears blue jeans, not her native dress. The web had a few references to the Varangians that you might want to check out. I'm afraid I can't comment on the books you listed or suggest any sources. > In the Anglo-Saxon vein, I have a book (self-published) by Terry > Bond of Arvonia, VA, (c) 1987, entitled _Arthurian Costume: Clothing > in Post-Roman Britain, A.D. 400-550_. My question is, did the garb > change much in the next 500 years or so? I seem to remember the costume became much less Roman and much more T-tunic-ish -- or at least, that's what the Latin monks show us. Hope that's some help, Luana DeGrood =============-------------------- degrool@engr.orst.edu (Luana DeGrood) | Rule #1: There are no rules. | sow a seed of discord Rule #2: Don't believe everything you read. | -=- --------------------------============= ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Aug 1996 13:56:01 -0800 To: h-costume@andrew.cmu.edu From: fsbks@mcn.org (Fred Struthers) Subject: textile conservation books >>Does anyone have a suggestion for a good book on textile preservation, >>cleaning, storage, etc? I'm looking for a main reference book to add to my >>library. > > While not strictly a reference book, I would recommend a book put >out by the Getty Foundation called something like, _Conservation of >Embroidered & Tapestries_. It is a collection of essays written for a >convention of conservators held in Europe and the information in those >essays is simply invaluable. > We carry CONSERVATION OF TAPESTRIES & EMBROIDERY from the Getty Conservation Institute. We also carry a small guide by Sue Herrold with very general info for small museums called: CARE OF ANTIQUE CLOTHING & TEXTILES AT HOME & SMALL MUSEUMS. Another valuable book (from Australia) is Gohl & Valensky, TEXTILE SCIENCE: An Explanation of Fibre Properties. We expect to have this in stock again at the end of the year. Fred Struthers BOOKS ON CLOTH email: fsbks@mcn.org catalog twice yearly, new one due late Sept. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Aug 1996 14:06:45 -0800 To: h-costume@andrew.cmu.edu From: fsbks@mcn.org (Fred Struthers) Subject: Re: Firefighters' Uniform Books Cc: shepgibb@mcn.org > A friend of mine restores old firetrucks. He asked me if I had any >information about firefighters' uniforms. We know that some were wearing >working class (civilian) clothing of the time. Does anyone have any >information on uniforms? My friend was not very specific on a time period. >He is interested in firefighting of all eras. > Another suggestion: TAILORING OF THE BELLE EPOQUE: Vincent's System of Cutting all Kinds of Tailor-made Garments. by WDF Vincent (1903) Original tailoring system contains patterns & directions (for the experienced) for military tunic and frock coats similar to the type fire-fighters would have worn in the early part of the century. Fred Struthers BOOKS ON CLOTH email: fsbks@mcn.org ------------------------------ Subject: vintage clothing debate: a proposal Date: Thu, 29 Aug 96 17:55:26 -0700 From: Gail DeCamp To: Ladies and Gentlemen, I would like to propose that any further discussion of vintage clothing, and the uses to which it may or may not be put, should go to the vintage clothing list. If the vintage clothing list has lapsed, then perhaps we ought to restart it, since clearly there's enough interest in it to take up most of h-costume for several days. cheers, Gail DeCamp ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Aug 1996 23:59:54 -0400 To: h-costume@andrew.cmu.edu From: Lynda Welch Subject: The dead horse stinking up those vintage clothes Ladies and Gentlemen: I would respectfully suggest that this discussion has gone on long enough--although certainly thought-provoking in the beginning, it would now seem that a select few individuals are concerned with "saving face". I don't think there's anyone on the list who doesn't respect one's right to one's opinion, but I think there are several who are beginning to be annoyed by the banter!!! We're all friends here, right? (right????) Let's put this one to bed for awhile so we can all cool off a little and enjoy the company of the members of this list. Let's take a moment to be thankful for the chance to communicate with those having like interests, instead of taking this far enough to hurt feelings. Normally I'm not this pacifistic, but since I so enjoy the contributions of many of the "main players" in this vintage debate, I'd hate to see one (or some) of them leave the list because of this! Thanks for letting me share my view. Cheers! Lynda Welch (aka Scrubbietta) War of 1812 camp wench, following the drum (and the corporal!) of the Royal Newfoundland Regiment of Fencible Infantry, Light Company, Essex, Ontario, Upper Canada ------------------------------ End of h-costume Digest Volume 4 Issue 25 ************************************