From ???@??? Mon Oct 07 13:16:49 1996 Received: from brownvm.brown.edu by mail.math.TU-Berlin.DE with SMTP id AA17858 (5.67b8/IDA-1.5 for ); Tue, 1 Oct 1996 05:07:30 +0100 Message-Id: <199610010407.AA17858@mail.math.TU-Berlin.DE> Received: from BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU by BROWNVM.brown.edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with BSMTP id 4523; Tue, 01 Oct 96 00:03:11 EDT Received: from BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU (NJE origin LISTSERV@BROWNVM) by BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 1139; Tue, 1 Oct 1996 00:03:08 -0400 Date: Tue, 1 Oct 1996 00:02:34 -0400 Reply-To: Historic Costume List Sender: Historic Costume List From: Automatic digest processor Subject: H-COSTUME Digest - 29 Sep 1996 to 30 Sep 1996 To: Recipients of H-COSTUME digests There are 24 messages totalling 715 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. H-COSTUME Digest - 28 Sep 1996 to 29 Sep 1996 (2) 2. Banners (3) 3. French Rennaisance (3) 4. Patterns and medieval Jewish 5. Corsets (3) 6. corset stiffening material 7. 1950's French Judicial Garb... 8. Subscribe 9. Fwd: 1950's French Judicial Garb... 10. wearing gloves at night 11. magi 12. 13. Authenticity 14. Glove material for the early 1860's 15. corsets 16. work dress 17. gloves ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 30 Sep 1996 00:24:53 -0700 From: Sandra McDaniel Subject: Re: H-COSTUME Digest - 28 Sep 1996 to 29 Sep 1996 I'm hoping someone will be able to provide sources for medieval jewish design motifs suitable for embroidery. Spanish influenced motifs would be ideal, but any would be welcome. S.B. McDaniel ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 30 Sep 1996 10:05:00 0BS From: "Chandler, Sally A." Subject: Banners This is not strictly a costume request - not at all a costume request I suppose, but I thought that you good people out there on the h-costume list might be able to help. I've been asked to make some 'authentic' banners to fly over a medieval castle. They'll be about 4 foot square and need to stand up to the vagaries of the weather. Any suggestions as to what fabric to use, the method of construction and the type of paint to use? All contributions gratefully received. Many thanks, Sally Ann Chandler s.a.chandler@shu.ac.uk ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 1 Oct 1996 19:27:54 +1000 From: "P. M. Ostwald" Subject: Re: French Rennaisance Kelly A. Rinne wrote: >Boucher's 20,000 years of costume is the "bible" in this business, >followed a close second by Milia Davenport's History of Costume. >More than you will ever want to know.K > >On Mon, 30 Sep 1996, P. M. Ostwald wrote: > >> Does anyone on the costume list have any suggestions where I could look to >> find portraits of french 16th century costumes. I've got books on 16th >> century English costume, and know of others, but not French. Except for a >> few images in general historical fashion books, I've yet to see anything >> useful. >> >> Alternatively, perhaps a book on the court artists Clouet? (father and son, >> I think) who painted many Royal and noble portraits of the time. Sorry, I wasn't clear enough. Boucher's was one of the general Historical costume books that I have. It has a few 16th C. french portraits but not enough for my purpose. I have Racinet's Historical Encyclopedia of Costume, too, which has drawings of several 16th C. costumes as well, but I don't know how far I can trust him as some of his English 16th c. look a bit suspect. (not too bad, but not quite right). I was hoping for something in the line of Jane Ashelford's books (which may be wishful thinking). Thanks to R. L. Shep for the French Portrait Book suggestion, though. I'll try that. Tricia ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Patricia Ostwald Newcastle Mater Hospital Medical Physicist Locked Bag 7 Radiation Oncology Department Newcastle Region Mail Centre 2310, NSW, Australia ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 30 Sep 1996 10:28:00 BST From: Mrs C S Yeldham Subject: Patterns and medieval Jewish Cindy said >I have McCalls 8449. I hope by using it and another pattern, both >slightly modified, to make a costume for our local RenFaire next >year. The girls/womens pattern consists of a drawstring neck >gown(with constrast sleeves--or one could make them of the same >material if making it as a smock or shift) and a "vest" with or >without an attatched skirt or apron. The vest could be turned into a >tabard-like overgown with little trouble. I thought the request was for Tudor patterns? I'm sorry, but what is described here has very little to do with what was worn in the Tudor period - to start with the smock doesn't have a drawstring neck (friends working on this are now putting drawstring necks to the 18th century at the earliest), and the gown *never* has anything resembling that, it is a low square-cut neck. I could go on! (Vest? tabard?) The person asking for medieval Jewish patterns for embroidery - there is a museum in Cordoba, Spain (I am pretty sure it was Cordoba) of pre-1497 Jewish life. It might be worth trying to track that down. On authenticity, I think suggesting someone grows their own linen, sheers their own sheep and make their own cloth etc are red herrings. Medieval cloth was made by professionals at every stage, (except in places like Scotland), and some of it was finer than we can commonly get today, bearing very little resemblance to modern 'hand-made'. The skills evolved were not easy to develop even then (reading the Museum of London Textiles book, when 'scarlets' were first developed in the 13th century, which involved raising a nap and trimming it a minimum of 4 times, English cloth was sent as far as Italy for finishing, it took 50 years before English cloth manufacturers could do it). It is my personal opinion that professionally made modern cloths (made of the correct fibres) are closer to period originals than modern hand-made cloth. However, this is my choice and I would honour anyone who tried to develop the skills rather than insulting people who make a different choice. Hope this helps Caroline ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 30 Sep 1996 07:34:30 -0400 From: Judy Gerjuoy Subject: Re: Banners > This is not strictly a costume request - not at all a costume request I > suppose, but I thought that you good people out there on the h-costume list > might be able to help. I've been asked to make some 'authentic' banners to > fly over a medieval castle. They'll be about 4 foot square and need to > stand up to the vagaries of the weather. Any suggestions as to what fabric > to use, the method of construction and the type of paint to use? All > contributions gratefully received. I am not sure what you asking for, but to do a proper medieval "banner" I would suggest getting a hold of Heraldic Standards by Gayre of Gayre or Medieval Flags by Colin somebody - blocking on the last name. Medieval Flags is in print, and Heraldic Standards should be available in the library - or you could try getting them through Heraldry Today - let me know if you need their address. There is one book written pre 1600 that says they were most frequently made of silk and then painted. It also says that linen was used and painted - and that some people even wanted painted wool! Of the few surviving actual examples, there is one that appears to be applique, and another that is embroidered. If you need references on those I could go through my heraldry books and dig them out again (I did this for a friend several months ago. But, my advice is to read the heraldry books to find what they should look like - or write if you want more details, and do them as painted. Judy/Jaelle jaelle@access.digex.net If the world were merely seductive, that would be easy. If it were merely challenging, that would be no problem. But I arise in the morning torn between a desire to improve the world, and a desire to enjoy the world. This makes it hard to plan the day. - E. B. White ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 30 Sep 1996 08:52:32 +0000 From: TC Carstensen Subject: Re: Corsets "M. Cricket Bauer" wrote: > Spiral bones in Victorian corsets is news to me! > Waugh describes the use of whalebone into the early 20th century, > despite the developments in the steel industry. (CC p.169) > What is your source?- I'd love to be able to expand the types of boning > I use, and still be authentic.. There is an ad for corsets with that kind of boning in a copy of Harper's Bazar magazine that I have from 1882. I assume they weren't introduced much earlier than that since there is no mention of them in the issues I have from 1878. I wish my collection of Harper's was complete so I could track it down more precisely, but hopefully someone else can tell you exactly when they were introduced. TC Carstensen eccentri@sprynet.com *** http://home.sprynet.com/sprynet/eccentri/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 30 Sep 1996 08:32:26 CST From: Cassandra McCraw Subject: Re: H-COSTUME Digest - 28 Sep 1996 to 29 Sep 1996 > Yesterday I bought a whole bunch of old seamed stockings at a Salvation > Army basement sale. The old ladies in there said they were probably from > the forties. All of them have a weird reinforcment in the heel that > would definitly extend above the top of the back of the shoe. Why was > that there and was it supposed to show? Just last week I used a photograph of several college students from 1940. One student had her back to the camera and the reinforcement at the back of the heel *did* show in her seamed stockings. I can't tell you the name of the reinforced part or why it was there, but it may have due to the manufacturing (like the seam in toes today) or to make the stockings sturdier (since the heel would get a fair amount of wear). Cassandra McCraw Special Collections Division, University of Arkansas Libraries E-MAIL: CMCCRAW@SATURN.UARK.EDU ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 30 Sep 1996 09:51:42 -0400 From: Thea Goldsby Subject: corset stiffening material Carolyn (don and carolyn richardson ) wrote: >Spiral bones approximate the movement you can get from >actual whalebone (baleen) which was more common in later periods. Do you mean that whalebone (baleen) was not much used in the 16th century? Please, do you know what _was_ commonly used? Thea ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 30 Sep 1996 10:42:14 -0400 From: Elizabeth McMahon Subject: Re: French Rennaisance On Tue, 1 Oct 1996, P. M. Ostwald wrote: > > Sorry, I wasn't clear enough. Boucher's was one of the general Historical > costume books that I have. It has a few 16th C. french portraits but not > enough for my purpose. Try biographies of French royalty during this period. They are likely to show protraits that don't often make it into the Anglo-centric costume books. There's a biography of Francois le Premier that a friend of mine picked up at the Strand, and it was quite rich in portraits I had never seen pictured before. *-*-*-*-*-*- Beth at work, (sans) cat in lap (sometimes known as Mistress Elizabeth Talbot, Lady Gendy) Shouldn't I be sewing something? (probably) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 30 Sep 1996 09:42:07 MDT From: Lyssa/Maggie Griggs Subject: Re: Banners "Chandler, Sally A." Subject: Re: Corsets At 08:52 AM 9/30/96 +0000, TC Carstensen wrote: >"M. Cricket Bauer" wrote: >> Spiral bones in Victorian corsets is news to me! >> Waugh describes the use of whalebone into the early 20th century, >> despite the developments in the steel industry. (CC p.169) >> What is your source?- I'd love to be able to expand the types of boning >> I use, and still be authentic.. > Boning could also be as simple as bunches of fine reeds sandwitched together. An example of this can be found on page 46 of Janet Arnold's Patterns of Fashion The cut and construction of clothes for men and women c1560-1620. The photos show a stomacher which has been made over from an earlier corset, and it is parallel rows of bundled reeds (about 20 reeds per bundle) on the horizontal, and 4 pieces of whale bone to reinforce it are placed across these at an angle. - Julie=20 =A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4= =A4=A4=A4=A4 ]=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF[ Home of Trespasser Ceramics- - - - - - /=AF=AF=AF\=AF=AF=AF\=AF=AF=AF\=AF\= =3D=3D\\ Andrew Tarrant - Eric the Trespasser | \ @ \ @ \ @ \ | || P.O. Box 672, Turner Valley, AB - - - - - | \ \ \ \| = || T0L 2A0 - PH/FAX# (403) 933-7221 \ \ \ \ /=3D // email: trespass@nucleus.com- - - - - - \_\___\___\ / =A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4= =A4=A4=A4=A4 '-------------' ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 29 Sep 1996 11:53:15 PDT From: "Marlo W. Peck" Subject: Subscribe I wish to subscibe to this mailing list. Please subscribe me or e-mail me the proper address to subscribe. Thank you, Marlo W. Peck Gnameless@pen.net ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 30 Sep 1996 13:31:01 -0400 From: Psyche09@AOL.COM Subject: Fwd: 1950's French Judicial Garb... (I think I sent this to the wrong address the first time!) --------------------- Forwarded message: Subj: 1950's French Judicial Garb... Date: 96-09-30 13:08:05 EDT From: Psyche 09 To: h-costume@andrew.cmu.edu I am designing costumes for a production of Molier's "The Learned Ladies" and we are setting it in the late 1950's - early 1960's. I was hoping someone would have some information on what a French judge would wear. We would love to put him in a robe and wig, but are not sure if this would be appropriate. Thanks in advance for any information you might be able to provide. Oh- 1st dress is a week from today! ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 30 Sep 1996 10:36:45 -0700 From: A Alexander Subject: Re: wearing gloves at night Hi Sue, My grandmother was a glove-maker in England just after WW2 (1944-1960) working at a dressmaker's in London. As I recall she once told me that a good remedy for badly chapped hands was to smother them in cream and pull on cotton gloves just before going to bed at night. This was to protect the bedclothes from the cream. It seems that ladies would have a cheap pair of cotton gloves made up for them by their dressmaker for this purpose or perhaps use a old worn-out pair that were no longer good enough to wear socially. Anna At 11:58 29/09/96 -0500, you wrote: >I have a question concerning the wearing of gloves at night to either soften or >protect hands. The reason I am asking is because of a play that we're our >doing this fall. This play is set in 1927 and the young woman is obsessed >about her hands and sleeps with gloves on. > >I remember my mother wearing gloves to bed when her hands were very chapped and >sore in the winter. She'd use petroleum jelly on her hands and then put on a >pair of cotton dress gloves. My question is: Were there actual gloves that >women bought for just such a purpose? What were these gloves made of? Or were >they just a spare pair of dress gloves? I have a copy of a 1927 Sears catalog >and I have found dress gloves, rubber gloves and household gloves, but no >specialized gloves to wear to soften hands while sleeping. > >Any suggestions would be extremely helpful. >Thanks in advance. > >Sue Kline-Heim > Anna Alexander ------------------------------------------------------------ Technical Support, Information Systems St. Paul's Hospital, 1081 Burrard Street Vancouver B.C. V6Z 1Y6 ph: (604) 682-2344 x3017 facs: (604) 631-5334 pager: (604) 686-3211 email: aalexander@stpaulshosp.bc.ca ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 30 Sep 1996 13:02:49 -0700 From: Susan Fatemi Subject: magi These would not really be "Christian" costumes as the wise men, if they were historical characters, would probably have been Zoroastrian or some branch thereof. The usual story is that they were Zoroastrian priests (magus) or astronomers (maybe that was the same thing) -- or they could have been Chaldeans, but still in the Persian (at that time Parthian) sphere. This pedantic ideal having been expressed, if you're doing stage costumes, I think the previous suggestions (re: Amahl and the night Visitors) sound pretty good. It's an opportunity to use a lot of imagination (and glitz) because nobody really knows where they came from or what they were wearing. I think the idea is to have these glittering, important beings, in marked contrast to the poverty of the holy family and surroundings. If you *really* want to know what Graeco-Persian-Parthian magi were wearing at the time, I'll see what I can find. Susan Fatemi susanf@eerc.berkeley.edu >---------- Forwarded message ---------- >From: tblue@csw.com >To: H-COSTUME-REQUEST@ANDREW.CMU.EDU >Subject: Historical Costume > > From: Tammie Blue > Dept: Client Services > Phone: 918-594-2450 Fax: 918-594-3332 Internet: TBLUE@CSW.COM > Subject: Historical Costume > :H-COSTUME-REQUEST@ANDREW.CMU.EDU > > Help! > Can anyone help address specific issues on Christian costumes -- the 3 > wise men to be exact. I've been contracted to design/create costumes for > each character and I'd like for them to be as original and true to the > period as possible. I have a few line drawings from costume books, but > I'd like to get as many specifics as possible for each king. IE: > > - Colors / Fabrics used > - Amount of beadwork they actually used back then > - Type of head dress, etc. > > Any information you can share is most appreciated. Also if you know of a > firm which has patterns. I have the magazines for all of the firms I > know of (Amazon, Past Patterns). > > > Thanks for all your help. > > Tammie > IS Technical Training & Education ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 30 Sep 1996 17:04:48 -0600 From: Tim Allison Subject: Susannah Do you have a catalog or flyer of other items you carry? Thanks Carol Mitchell root ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 30 Sep 1996 17:13:01 PDT From: ches@IO.COM Subject: Re: Authenticity On Sat, 28 Sep 1996 11:02:40 -0300 Margaret Rae Carignan wrote: >Here I go again, with my vain attempt to understand "authenticity", and >what it means in the SCA. I have little experience with other, more >stringent reenactors, so I can't really speak to their issues, but having >been accused of being the local Authenticity Police, I have some opinions >I would like to share. > >I think the problem we are experiencing has something to do with our >definition of "authenticity". An actual button, off an actual piece of >period clothing is "authentic". A recreation of that exact same button, >using the same tools and materials is an "authentic reproduction". A >version of that button, that has the right shape, and is made by the same >technique, but has a plastic base, and is made with modern syntheic thread >is NOT authentic. That doesn't mean it's not good research, or well made. >It's just no longer authentic. ---snip of some wonderous stuff!--- >Maestra Francesca della L'Aura di Firenze > ..o0*0o.. After being away from the S.C.A. for 7 years off and on and entered back into it again I have just come back from my second event in 6 months. I now understand what it is the goal of the original poster is all about. I now support it whole heartedly with the definitions from Francesca. I find it sad to see ladies wearing sports bras that are just as expensive as a good fitted corset under their tudor or elizabethan garb. To see them walk around with polyester stretch pants and vampire make up is also sad. I feel I am not of any kind of influence to say anything. I probably would not be able to say it well either. I for one will now begin to dig up the pictures of the garments that I recreated in the past and really learn what they were of for who and if the fabric would have been used. I love 100% cotton and do not mind ironing if it is the day before and not the day of an event. Thanks for all the wonderous opinion here. They truely can change one's mind! :) Lady Chiara Ciao @}\ Known World Academy of the Rapier: Ches @}----`--,-- http://www.io.com/~ches/rapier.html @}/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 30 Sep 1996 20:33:21 -0400 From: Etienette@AOL.COM Subject: Re: French Rennaisance Hello, All of the books that have been mentioned are good sources, but there are a number of other books that are available at the library that deal with French Rennaisance. The first is Costume of the Western World, The Last Valois by Andre Blum. This is a great book. I do not believe that it is available on the open market, however the library should have it. Another really good source is a book called The Valois Tapestries by Frances a Yates. Trying to find good sources for French Rennaisance clothing has also been my field of study for years as well... it is not the easiest to research. You can look to Elizabeth I, for many of her gowns were made in the "French Fashion" - Janet Arnold is a good source. Good luck Etienette ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 30 Sep 1996 20:33:23 -0400 From: Etienette@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Corsets Hello, Spiral or spring steel boning is the best for making most styles of corsets. These bones are available from Greenberg and Hammer, they have a mail order catalog and are very helpfull. Their address is Greenberg and Hammer, Inc. 24 West 57th St., New York, NY 10019 (212)246-2835. They do have a minimum. They are the most inexpensive place I have found to buy bonning. Have fun Etienette ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 30 Sep 1996 18:36:49 -0700 From: Glenna Jo & Bill Christen Subject: Glove material for the early 1860's The current thread on gloves prompts my query about what material gloves were commonly made of in the early 1860's period. I know fine formal gloves were made of white kid leather. Were everyday dress gloves ever made of other material such as silk or cotton, etc. If so, were they of woven fabric or extremely fine knit fabric? Also, has anyone found any documentation for crocheted gloves (as opposed to those nasty white crocheted or knitted mitts many reenactors keep wearing)? I haven't found any evidence for either crocheted or lace gloves (again, as opposed to black *lace* mitts) being worn in this period. Since that doesn't necessary mean they weren't worn, I'm put this question to the whole group. Thanks! Glenna Jo gwjchris@rust.net ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 30 Sep 1996 23:19:20 -0400 From: "M. Cricket Bauer" Subject: corsets My research in 19th century corsets, (at least before the 1880s as that add cited by someone else would indicate), including examining originals, lead me to conclude that our plain steel boning is a better choice than spiral boning. Cricket ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 30 Sep 1996 23:36:22 -0400 From: "M. Cricket Bauer" Subject: work dress Yes indeed, the "camp dress" is a reenactor's invention. For light house work(light dusting, needlework), a less fashionable dress is suitable. For most work, including heavy work, the fashion plates and the photos of women working in military camps show them in what they referred to as "wash" dresses. They were one piece, made of cotton, high necked, with bishop sleeves, waistband, and length to just above floor or at the ankle. Peterson's or Godey's,(I can't remember exactly which or what year, but it's during the CW) describe this dress as being "universally worn by women when working." These work dresses were meant to be work dresses, and did not have a life as fancy clothes. They were, however, quite respectable, and the woman took pains to keep herself presentable. The fancy dresses in CDVs, which are the subject of Juanita's very worthwhile study, are mostly of silk, wools, or fancy cottons. Except for the refugee or suddenly poor, they would not be reworked for work- they would be reworked for petticoats, children's dresses, aprons, bonnet strings, and the like. cricket ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 30 Sep 1996 23:25:01 -0400 From: "M. Cricket Bauer" Subject: gloves I have been going through Godey's and Peterson's month by month as part of my thesis research. Knit gloves are illustrated as items worn for warmth. Cotton gloves are not described. Netted mitts are illustrated in the late 50s, and are out of style except for the older woman in the 1860s. In fact, there is no mention of any other type of glove (not for warmth) other than types of leather. Obviously, this does not represent reality,only a fashionable ideal. In the recent travelling exhibition on Lincoln, there was a pair of linen gloves, that belonged to Mary Lincoln. Our knowledge of this subject is as yet incomplete. One source that someone else may have some access to are advertisements for different types of gloves that were being sold... Anyone? Cricket ------------------------------ End of H-COSTUME Digest - 29 Sep 1996 to 30 Sep 1996 **************************************************** From ???@??? Mon Oct 07 13:16:51 1996 Received: from brownvm.brown.edu by mail.math.TU-Berlin.DE with SMTP id AA25089 (5.67b8/IDA-1.5 for ); Wed, 2 Oct 1996 05:07:40 +0100 Message-Id: <199610020407.AA25089@mail.math.TU-Berlin.DE> Received: from BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU by BROWNVM.brown.edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with BSMTP id 8048; Wed, 02 Oct 96 00:01:52 EDT Received: from BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU (NJE origin LISTSERV@BROWNVM) by BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 2898; Wed, 2 Oct 1996 00:01:49 -0400 Date: Wed, 2 Oct 1996 00:01:44 -0400 Reply-To: Historic Costume List Sender: Historic Costume List From: Automatic digest processor Subject: H-COSTUME Digest - 30 Sep 1996 to 1 Oct 1996 To: Recipients of H-COSTUME digests There are 25 messages totalling 807 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. French Rennaisance (2) 2. German Artificial Whalebone 3. Banners 4. New interest... (2) 5. corsets 6. French judicial garb (2) 7. Glove material for the early 1860's 8. Medieval Jewish Embroidery (2) 9. H-COSTUME Digest - 27 Sep 1996 to 28 Sep 1996 10. H-COSTUME Digest - 26 Sep 1996 to 27 Sep 1996 11. Reinforced Stockings 12. Linen Thread (3) 13. Britex Fabric Store 14. Can anyone help? 15. Costume Book Publishers 16. Sources, stockings, gloves 17. [Fwd: The Pret-a-porter collections on Elle France] 18. Workdresses 19. sources & misconceptions ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 30 Sep 1996 22:24:54 -0700 From: Joan M Jurancich Subject: Re: French Rennaisance At 04:10 PM 9/30/96 +1000, you wrote: >Does anyone on the costume list have any suggestions where I could look to >find portraits of french 16th century costumes. I've got books on 16th >century English costume, and know of others, but not French.[snip] > >Tricia > >----------------------------------------------------------------------------- >Patricia Ostwald Newcastle Mater Hospital >Medical Physicist Locked Bag 7 >Radiation Oncology Department Newcastle Region Mail >Centre > 2310, NSW, Australia > Tricia, I have a book, in French, titled "Le Costume Civil en France Du XIIIe au XIXe siecle" by Camille Piton, 1926. It includes many pictures (mostly black and white, but some in color), with textual descriptions, and covers working class (often from manuscripts) as well as gentry and nobility. I just wish that the pictures of the Valois Tapestries (called "Les tapisseries de Florence" in the book) were bigger! The book was printed in Paris, by Ernest Flammarion, Editeur, 26, rue racine, 26 [from the title page; French referencing format differs from American, but I _think_ one of those 26s refers to the year of publication]. Hope you can find a copy to borrow nearer home; I'm in Sacramento, CA, USA, so it's a little far.... Oh, if you do find a good book of Clouet portaits, could you post the name, author, etc., to the list? I'm certain there are other interested parties. Ciao, Joan Jurancich Sacramento, CA, USA joanj@quiknet.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 1 Oct 1996 09:26:00 0BS From: "Chandler, Sally A." Subject: German Artificial Whalebone The wonderful artificial boning I said I'd post details about is as follows: It is available in dimensions: 5 x 1.0mm 6 x 1.0mm 7 x 1.0mm 10 x 1.0mm 12 x 1.5mm sold by the metre at prices ranging from DM 0.42 to DM 1.00 Individual bones in lengths are also available but I can't read my notes to see what sizes or prices. It is sold / produced by Wissner Gmbh Postfach 1423 Hohenstaufenstrasse 8 -14 D-73033 Goppingen Germany (There should be an umlaut " on the O in Goppingen but this machine won't do them!) The catch is that, by mail order, the minimum quantity is 200m. If anyone within reach in the UK is interested I'd be interested in getting together to make up an order. Sally Ann Chandler The Historical Clothing Company s.a.chandler@shu.ac.uk ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 1 Oct 1996 10:29:01 -0400 From: Gileshill@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Banners Sally asked: > I've been asked to make some 'authentic' banners to > fly over a medieval castle. They'll be about 4 foot square and need to > stand up to the vagaries of the weather. Any suggestions as to what fabric > to use, the method of construction and the type of paint to use? A number of my friends in Southern California (led by Esther Benedict and Bruce Miller) have made heraldic banners using silk cloth. The pattern is lightly drawn in pencil, traced with resist, and then the outlined shapes are colored with silk paint. The edges are finished using french hems, and grommets or buttonholes can be set into the edge for ties or ropes. I'm not sure how these will stand up to the 'liquid sunshine' with which the UK is so richly blessed, but they work well here in the desert. You might also consider a technique I've heard called 'reverse applique': Choose a base cloth the color of the field. (If your field is divided, make your ground cloth match it...) Using a very narrow satin stitch, applique the charges to the base cloth. Turn the banner over, and using the satin stitch as a guideline, CAREFULLY cutting inside the outlines, cut away the ground cloth that is behind the charges. You now have a banner that looks the same on both sides. Retrace the satin stitch lines, using a wider stitch so that the raw edges (on both sides of the banner) are caught beneath it. (You might want to FrayChek the edges first for extra strength.) Given the vagaries of English weather, you might consider the use of a synthetic like polyester oxford cloth, rather than a more period -and more delicate- fiber. Paul Giles Orange County (Did I get all that right, Astra?) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 1 Oct 1996 10:49:25 -0400 From: ERICA DANIELLE STEVENS Subject: New interest... I have a question for all of you wonderful people out there doing historical reenactment or participating with the SCA. I've just recently become interested in this area and I'm just looking for some basic information. I've read just about everything I can find on the web about this, so I thought I'd ask for some opinions here. First, I am a student, so I have very little money to put into creating a costume at the moment. I may not be able to create what I would consider a _good_ costume for a few more years (until after I finish medical school). So, I suppose what I am asking is where would be a good place to start? I have both Irish and English in my ancestry and thought that might be a good place to start. Oh, and I suppose I should have mentioned that I'm looking to the medival and renaissance time periods. :) If anyone has ideas on the matter you can email me at my personal address since it will most likely not be of interest to the entire group. Erica Stevens edstev01@morehead-st.edu PS And can anyone out there tell me the earliest reported records of claddaugh (sp?) rings or tell me where I could find it? ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 1 Oct 1996 10:58:07 -0600 From: Andrew Tarrant Subject: Re: corsets At 11:19 PM 9/30/96 -0400, M. Cricket Bauer wrote: >My research in 19th century corsets, (at least before the 1880s as that >add cited by someone else would indicate), including examining >originals, lead me to conclude that our plain steel boning is a better >choice than spiral boning. > >Cricket > >This would be true for the early 20th century as well, as I have a dressmaking book from 1911, which states that spring steel bones or celluloid (early form of plastic) bones are recommended. It also has a whole page of instructions on how to use whalebone by soaking it in tepid water to soften it so that a needle can be passed throught it. These are used for lining wastes, and collar stands, but I would imagine that the corsets themselves would also be constructed on similar lines. If anyone is interested my source is The Dressmaker - The Butterick Publishing Company Copyright 1911. - Julie Malin...in the frozen North, I might add. There's snow on the ground here already.... =A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4= =A4=A4=A4=A4 ]=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF[ Home of Trespasser Ceramics- - - - - - /=AF=AF=AF\=AF=AF=AF\=AF=AF=AF\=AF\= =3D=3D\\ Andrew Tarrant - Eric the Trespasser | \ @ \ @ \ @ \ | || P.O. Box 672, Turner Valley, AB - - - - - | \ \ \ \| = || T0L 2A0 - PH/FAX# (403) 933-7221 \ \ \ \ /=3D // email: trespass@nucleus.com- - - - - - \_\___\___\ / =A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4= =A4=A4=A4=A4 '-------------' ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 1 Oct 1996 18:40:44 +0000 From: K.M.Bunting@DERBY.AC.UK Subject: French judicial garb I'm sure I have seen pictures/film of French judges in a distinctive cylindrical cap with a slight bulge at the top, worn with an academic-type gown (no wig!). A Petit Larousse dictionary may have an illustration. Kate Bunting ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 1 Oct 1996 08:48:02 -0800 From: "R.L. Shep" Subject: Re: Glove material for the early 1860's Glenna Jo & Bill Christen wrote: > > The current thread on gloves prompts my query about what material gloves were > commonly made of in the early 1860's period. I know fine formal gloves were made of > white kid leather. Were everyday dress gloves ever made of other material such as > silk or cotton, etc. If so, were they of woven fabric or extremely fine knit fabric? > > Also, has anyone found any documentation for crocheted gloves (as opposed to those > nasty white crocheted or knitted mitts many reenactors keep wearing)? I haven't > found any evidence for either crocheted or lace gloves (again, as opposed to black > *lace* mitts) being worn in this period. Since that doesn't necessary mean they > weren't worn, I'm put this question to the whole group. > > Thanks! > Glenna Jo > gwjchris@rust.net In looking through CIVIL WAR LADIES (reprints of Petersons) Idonot find any gloves that "pop-out" at me, there are none in THE LADIES HAND BOOK OF FANCY & ORNAMENTAL WORK (1859) either. Anne Buck in VICTORIAN COSTUME (and remember it is English) talks about kid gloves(which were "fashionable & correct at all times") and the fact that they were short for both day & evening wear. They got longer after 1865. She also talks about silk stitching used on them which became ornamental. She mentions that suede gloves also came into fashion. Kid gloves were in a whole range of colors (not just white) in the 1860s according to her. She is reliable if you remember that she is talking about "fashion" and that she is English. She says that mittens were in fashion in th 1830s & 40s but went out of fashion after that, they were of black or white silk. ~!~ R.L. Shep ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 1 Oct 1996 10:52:37 -0700 From: Heather Rose Jones Subject: Re: New interest... On Tue, 1 Oct 1996, ERICA DANIELLE STEVENS wrote: > PS And can anyone out there tell me the earliest reported records of > claddaugh (sp?) rings or tell me where I could find it? I believe soc.culture.irish has an entire faq on the subject. I believe the particular design is no more than a century or two old at most, although rings incorporating a clasped hands motif appear much earlier in other cultures. Heather Rose Jones ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 1 Oct 1996 11:17:09 -0700 From: The Polsons Subject: Medieval Jewish Embroidery >I'm hoping someone will be able to provide sources for medieval jewish >design motifs suitable for embroidery. Spanish influenced motifs would >be ideal, but any would be welcome. >S.B. McDaniel There's quite a few Dover books with basic design motifs of medieval times, a couple I know of specifically middle-eastern, Moorish, and so on. Try to get your local bookstore to give you a peek at the latest Dover catalog, and order what you need! 8-) ********************************************** Willow Polson....willow@recreating-history.com Recreating History magazine ..."Historic Crafts, Cooking, and Clothing"... ----> http://www.recreating-history.com <----- Call us toll free! 1-(888) REENACT (733-6228) ********************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 1 Oct 1996 11:17:13 -0700 From: The Polsons Subject: Re: H-COSTUME Digest - 27 Sep 1996 to 28 Sep 1996 > I have a question for the more experienced researchers on this >list. I recently heard about the following book and since it >appears to cover exactly the periods I'm interested in I was wondering if >anyone else who has seen/used it could tell me if it is one I should go >after. Did you find it to be accurate? Good illustrations? Construction >details? How comprehensive? > > Cunnington, Phillis Emily, 1887- > Medieval and Tudor costume / Phillis Cunnington. Boston : Plays, > Inc., 1972. > >thanks much, >lisa Hey, if anyone ever gives you info on this book, let me know!!!! It sounds like JUST what I've been looking for! 8-) (I do late 15th c. "civilized" Irish, among other things...) ;> ********************************************** Willow Polson....willow@recreating-history.com Recreating History magazine ..."Historic Crafts, Cooking, and Clothing"... ----> http://www.recreating-history.com <----- Call us toll free! 1-(888) REENACT (733-6228) ********************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 30 Sep 1996 13:29:32 PDT From: "Marlo W. Peck" Subject: Re: French Rennaisance > At 04:10 PM 9/30/96 +1000, you wrote: > >Does anyone on the costume list have any suggestions where I could loo= k to > >find portraits of french 16th century costumes. Two books that I like at lot are _France, A History in Art_ by Bradley = Smith and _Renaissance Poitraits by Lorne Campbell. The first covers the= entire span of frence history with many good sorce painting for the rena= issance period. The second covers painting in Europe with several french= paintings. Hope these help, your library should be able to get them on inter-library= loan if they do not own a copy. Marlo W. Peck ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 1 Oct 1996 11:17:05 -0700 From: The Polsons Subject: Re: H-COSTUME Digest - 26 Sep 1996 to 27 Sep 1996 > You might want to check out weaving magazines for sources of linen >thread. I get mine from Webs in Massachusetts. They stock several >thicknesses. The spools are about 5" long and 1.5" thick. Only white and >natural tan are available though. Of course, you could make your own... (Obnoxious, gratuitous self-promotion to follow...) Starting in our next issue (Dec/Jan), we have a two-part article on making your own sewing thread. The first part is making a small bead-whorl spindle, and the second is techniques for making the thread itself. Just thought it was pertinent! 8-) ********************************************** Willow Polson....willow@recreating-history.com Recreating History magazine ..."Historic Crafts, Cooking, and Clothing"... ----> http://www.recreating-history.com <----- Call us toll free! 1-(888) REENACT (733-6228) ********************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 1 Oct 1996 11:39:01 -0800 From: Carole Newson-Smith Subject: Reinforced Stockings The reason that stockings were reinforced both at the toe and the heel is the same reason that socks are usually reinforced in those locations. The areas of wear are the toe and the heel. Stockings that were only reinforced at the toe were called "sandal foot", and cost a little more, as I recall. And yes, I recall having the reinforced heel show in the back above my shoe. I hated the look, but I was on a student budget and couldn't afford to splurge on sandal foot style for every day wear. Carole Newson-Smith (Cordelia Toser in the SCA) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 1 Oct 1996 11:54:26 -0700 From: Cheryl Melnick Subject: Re: Medieval Jewish Embroidery There are numerous books on Jewish embroidery, some of which have themes taken from medieval embroidery. Other ideas include the following: * The book: Jewish Costume-not very good pictures on clothing embroidery, but you can get an idea. Out of print. Check with your local library search service. * Look for calligraphy books with a focus on Jewish calligraphy. Many of these can be "translated" into embroidery. I know of a source for more information, but I will not be able to post any more details for a minimum of 3-4 weeks. Please email me if you are interested, and I will post more information at that time. Cheryl _____________________________________________ Cheryl Melnick General Manager Sessionware Inc. (Microsoft Solution Provider Premier Partner) cheryl@sessionware.com 408-559-7799 http://www.sessionware.com >---------- >From: The Polsons[SMTP:willow@RECREATING-HISTORY.COM] >Sent: Tuesday, October 01, 1996 11:17 AM >To: Multiple recipients of list H-COSTUME >Subject: Medieval Jewish Embroidery > >>I'm hoping someone will be able to provide sources for medieval jewish >>design motifs suitable for embroidery. Spanish influenced motifs would >>be ideal, but any would be welcome. > > ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 1 Oct 1996 11:58:49 -0800 From: Carole Newson-Smith Subject: Linen Thread For those of you who have used linen thread that is fine enough for sewing, is it as strong as cotton thread? Would linen thread be suitable for machine sewing? I haven't purchased any linen thread yet, so I can't experiment at this point. Any experience you have had with either hand or machine sewing with linen thread would be useful knowledge to me. Thanks Carole Newson-Smith (Cordelia Toser in the SCA) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 1 Oct 1996 12:03:47 -0800 From: Carole Newson-Smith Subject: Britex Fabric Store For those who live in the San Francisco area, be warned that Britex is having a half-off-your-first-$100-of-purchases sale on Monday, Oct 14 from 9am to 8pm. "Notions, linings and already-reduced merchandise not included; limited to stock on floor; 1/2 yard minimum purchase." For those who are not familiar with Britex, it is a dangerous place located in downtown San Francisco, several stories high, full of wonderful fabrics, many of which are quite expensive. Some of us go merely to look and fondle the fine wares. Occasionally though, I find something within my budget. Carole Newson-Smith (Cordelia Toser in the SCA) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 1 Oct 1996 16:35:37 -0400 From: "Elizabeth J. Poole" Subject: Re: French judicial garb If you can handle a Hollywood reference, you can see a whole 1950s French court, judge, police, bailiff, etc., in the courtroom scene at the end of _Gentlemen Prefer Blondes_. Not to mention some amazing USAian women's clothing. :) cheers, ejp -------- Elizabeth Poole Yorktown Heights, NY ejp@watson.ibm.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 1 Oct 1996 23:02:36 +0100 From: Carol May Subject: Re: Can anyone help? >There is a tailoring suppliers in Bradford, which I think (from memory) is >called Batemans. They supply military tailors and it's a treasure trove >of >wonderful fabrics. I f you think this is useful I'll look up details for >you. >Sally Ann Chandler >The Historical Clothing Company >s.a.chandler@shu.ac.uk ---------- If you don't mind looking up the details for me that would be great!! Thanks very much for your help. Carol ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 1 Oct 1996 19:28:53 -0400 From: "Penny E. Ladnier" Subject: Costume Book Publishers This question comes from my Product Development class (of which I am developing costume books): It is geared toward costume book readers outside the USA or the servicers of international costume books (book store owners)or international travelers. Have you purchased, read or sold any costume books manufactured by of the following publishers in any country besides the USA? What I am trying to find out is, do any of these publishers reach an international market? I have checked THE WRITER'S MARKET book and it does not give this information. Please with your response, let me know what country you found the published book in. PUBLISHERS OF COSTUMES BOOKS Citadel Press Clarion Books Drama Book Publishers Gaslight Publications Indiana University Press Knowledge, Ideas & Trends, Inc. Mayfield Publishing Co. Meriwhether Publishing Ltd. The Overlook Press Piccadilly Books Players Press, Inc. Scarecrow Press, Inc. Schirmer Books University of Texas Press The Vestal Press, Ltd. Titan Books Ltd. ***Please, email me direct s0pelad@erols.com Getting closer to finding a publisher... Penny Ladnier Penny E. Ladnier, Virginia Commonwealth University s0peladn@erols.com http://www.geocities.com/BourbonStreet/2157 "If it is out there, I'll find it..." ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 30 Sep 1996 13:08:59 -0600 From: felicity@CYBERHIGHWAY.NET Subject: Sources, stockings, gloves Just catching up with at least a week's worth of digests, so hope this info will prove helpful: (BTW, thanks to the person who provided "De'An's" address; I'll contact them regarding seamed stockings. I've not been able to find any --fitted-- seamed ones for a few years...since an old dept. store downtown went out of business. I didn't think that the big producers (Hanes, etc) manufactured the fitted seamed ones anymore. They beat the heck out of pantyhose for comfort, IMHO.) Address for Vermont Country Store (who also carry white sleeping gloves on pg. 49 of their fall catalogue.. 9.90 for 2 pr) is P O Box 3000 Manchester Center VT 05255-3000 fax: 802 362 0285 (voice: 802 362 2400) I've also gotten interesting things (including cotton stockings & a limited, but very reasonable selection of fabrics) from Gohn Bros. Box 111 Middlebury Indiana 46540-0111 ph: 219 825 2400 They serve the Amish community, also. ---I have no interest in either company other than as a satisfied customer.--- -- """"""""""""""""felicity@cyberhighway.net""""""""""""""" "Attend while I'le exemplyfie the mind that I doe carry, I take delight both morne and night to have mine owne vagary." --from _A light hearts A jewell_ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 1 Oct 1996 19:33:10 -0800 From: "R.L. Shep" Subject: [Fwd: The Pret-a-porter collections on Elle France] This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------3BAF2ED57EFD Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit This is an interesting site for anyone who might be interested in what will, in thier day, become historic costume. Most of it is in French but there is a English summary. ~!~ R.L. Shep --------------3BAF2ED57EFD Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Received: from chemino.hfp.fr ([194.117.211.70]) by dns1.mcn.org (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id MAA01347 for ; Tue, 1 Oct 1996 12:11:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: by chemino.hfp.fr; id AA015317011; Tue, 1 Oct 1996 15:10:11 -0400 Received: from ssabatie.hfp.fr(193.106.213.139) by chemino.hfp.fr via smap (V3.1.1) id xma001513; Tue, 1 Oct 96 15:09:43 -0400 Received: by ssabatie.hfp.fr with Microsoft Mail id <01BBAFDD.0D26CB20@ssabatie.hfp.fr>; Tue, 1 Oct 1996 21:11:02 +-100 Message-Id: <01BBAFDD.0D26CB20@ssabatie.hfp.fr> From: "Deirdre O'CALLAGHAN" To: "'shepgibb@mail.mcn.org'" Subject: The Pret-a-porter collections on Elle France Date: Tue, 1 Oct 1996 21:10:58 +-100 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable THE PRET-A-PORTER COLLECTIONS ON ELLE FRANCE http://www.elle.fr What will we be wearing next summer? Who will replace Gianfranco Ferre = at the House of Dior? Where can you eat out in Paris and rub shoulders with top models and high-powered designers? Is this really Claudia's last step = down the catwalk? Why is Yves Saint Laurent sitting out this collection? >From October 7th to 16th, you can follow the 1997 Spring/Summer = Pret-a-Porter fashion shows on the ELLE France Web site (http://www.elle.fr). The ELLE online staff is moving newsroom to a salon in the Hotel du Louvre, right = at the heart of the fashion centre of Paris, the Carrousel du Louvre where = the collections take place. Every day the site will show pictures from the 88 collections being = shown with commentary in both English and French. Backstage gossip and shop talk = will also figure on the site as ELLE's online team go out on the Paris = pavements snapping the personalities and tracking down the latest news. Feel free to link to the ELLE France site for live coverage of the Pret-a-Porter shows. Should you have any queries, please do not hesitate to contact me. Sincere regards, Deirdre O' Callaghan Online Marketing Manager Hachette Filipacchi Grolier Tel : (33 1) 41 34 77 33 Fax : (33 1) 41 34 77 35 email : callaghan@nemo.geis.com =00 --------------3BAF2ED57EFD-- ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 1 Oct 1996 22:59:59 -0400 From: "M. Cricket Bauer" Subject: Workdresses My research in diaries and period fiction indicate that at all levels of society, including the poorest, women had at least one 'best' silk dress. The number and variety probably increases as you go up the social scale, but doesn't approach our modern wardrobes.. which I think we all know. This is one area where, perhaps, Juanita doesn't have it on the mark. I'd be interested to know how she draws her conclusion. Certainly reworking is an important part of wardrobe maintenance, but the silk dress, if it is no longer a best or second best dress, would bypass the true "work" (laundry, cooking, gardening) level, and be reworked, as I have already outlined, into accessories or children's clothes. The one case in which I think her statement applies may be a wool dress, of varying fineness. Most wools (not tissues) were considered more serviceable, and could make the transition. What do you think, Glenna? Crick ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 1 Oct 1996 23:33:23 -0400 From: lukelep@NECA.COM Subject: Re: Linen Thread >For those of you who have used linen thread that is fine enough for >sewing, is it as strong as cotton thread? Would linen thread be suitable >for machine sewing? > >I haven't purchased any linen thread yet, so I can't experiment at this >point. Any experience you have had with either hand or machine sewing >with linen thread would be useful knowledge to me. > >Thanks > >Carole Newson-Smith >(Cordelia Toser in the SCA) Carole, I use linen thread for almost all my hand sewing and have had excellent results. Look for thread that is smoothly spun, free from lumps. I have only used it a little bit in the machine, so I don't feel qualified to comment on that aspect. Hope this is a help! Lisa ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 1 Oct 1996 23:44:01 -0400 From: Ed Safford & Carol Kocian Subject: sources & misconceptions Esther Reeves wrote, about standards for small groups: > I suggest you try and trace everything back to the original > research as there are many misconceptions widely held. When > something new comes to light discuss it decide what you are > going to do and then make sure everyone knows the new ruling > preferably in writing unless the group is very small. Glenna Jo Christen wrote: > Also, has anyone found any documentation for crocheted gloves (as > opposed to those nasty white crocheted or knitted mitts many > reenactors keep wearing)? I haven't found any evidence for either > crocheted or lace gloves (again, as opposed to black *lace* mitts) > being worn in this period. Since that doesn't necessary mean they > weren't worn, I'm put this question to the whole group. Cricket Bauer wrote: >Yes indeed, the "camp dress" is a reenactor's invention. So many things have become accepted as correct by reenactors when they have little or no relation to things that were worn. Some practices are accepted for safety reasons, such as not using bullets in a battle reenactment or a stick of rattan wrapped in tape to simulate a sword. For costumes, someone will look at a picture and guess at what the item is & how it's made. That effort will be copied, and then people will copy the copies. In "Whisper Down The Lane" fashion, the item no longer resembles the original. This phenomenon of costume development is almost as interesting to study as costume history of different centuries! I would like to discuss more examples of this happening - how the "accepted" item evolved, and what it should really be. Even some well-respected sources contain misinformation. I remember reading about 14th Century "corsets" in Blanche Payne! One example is the mobcap for the American Revolution and earlier; the cap that is made from a circle of fabric gathered to fit the head with a ruffle remaining all around. In paintings where the subject is viewed from the front, that construction looks right. Some of these paintings were made later, after that style of cap had developed. So the mobcap became the accepted style for a long time, until further research proved it to be wrong. Lady Chiara wrote: > I find it sad to see ladies wearing sports bras that are just > as expensive as a good fitted corset under their tudor or > elizabethan garb. These ladies probably think their sports bras give the correct silhouette. If someone can tell the difference easily, then the compromise is not working. Many people on the list don't write unless a specific question is asked. Well, here's one - what are the compromises and examples of incorrect items you see? Specifics, please, with solutions, citations of better resources, etc. -Carol Kocian *^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^* This account is shared by Carol Kocian and Ed Safford. Carol can also be e-mailed at ckocian@epe.org Ed can be reached at ecsaffor@ingr.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 1 Oct 1996 23:51:22 -0400 From: Ed Safford & Carol Kocian Subject: Re: Linen Thread Carole Newson-Smith wrote, >For those of you who have used linen thread that is fine enough >for sewing, is it as strong as cotton thread? Would linen >thread be suitable for machine sewing? I find linen thread to be stronger than cotton thread. The smooth, even, non-lumpy thread works just fine in a sewing machine. -Carol Kocian *^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^* This account is shared by Carol Kocian and Ed Safford. Carol can also be e-mailed at ckocian@epe.org Ed can be reached at ecsaffor@ingr.com ------------------------------ End of H-COSTUME Digest - 30 Sep 1996 to 1 Oct 1996 *************************************************** From ???@??? Mon Oct 07 13:16:52 1996 Received: from brownvm.brown.edu by mail.math.TU-Berlin.DE with SMTP id AA01781 (5.67b8/IDA-1.5 for ); Thu, 3 Oct 1996 05:06:35 +0100 Message-Id: <199610030406.AA01781@mail.math.TU-Berlin.DE> Received: from BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU by BROWNVM.brown.edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with BSMTP id 1816; Thu, 03 Oct 96 00:02:07 EDT Received: from BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU (NJE origin LISTSERV@BROWNVM) by BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 0789; Thu, 3 Oct 1996 00:02:05 -0400 Date: Thu, 3 Oct 1996 00:01:57 -0400 Reply-To: Historic Costume List Sender: Historic Costume List From: Automatic digest processor Subject: H-COSTUME Digest - 1 Oct 1996 to 2 Oct 1996 To: Recipients of H-COSTUME digests There are 29 messages totalling 988 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. Farthingale help (3) 2. French Rennaisance 3. New interest... (3) 4. gloves (2) 5. sources & misconceptions (5) 6. White and ecru together--ugh (Men may delete) (2) 7. New Cunnington Book 8. Thank You 9. Jewish Embroidery 10. White and ecru together; misconceptions (2) 11. "Costume Design for Dummies" 12. No Subject 13. H-COSTUME Digest - 30 Sep 1996 to 1 Oct 1996 14. "Victoriana" update 15. Ecru 16. Ecru lace 17. HMR (fwd) 18. sources & misconceptions-ball dresses ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 2 Oct 1996 01:44:57 -0700 From: Donna Mann Subject: Farthingale help I am trying to make a farthingale from J. Arnolds book, Patterns of Fashion. Using the pattern from Libro de Geometria by Alcega. The problem that I am running into is: using the description in the book the hem is no where near 117 inches. That is if the pattern is drawn for the 22 inch wide material mentioned. The best I come up with is 74 inches. Am I leaving something out? Reading it wrong. What? Any help will be appreciated. TIA Donna Mann ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 3 Oct 1996 18:10:04 +1000 From: "P. M. Ostwald" Subject: Re: French Rennaisance Thanks for your suggestions. I'm off to the uni library to look up all these books on French Art and the 16th century. (Though I think I'm going to have to pay for the interlibrary loan - I don't think the Medical Physics budget will cover it :-) Hmmm maybe if I think up a really GOOD excuse.....) Tricia ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Patricia Ostwald Newcastle Mater Hospital Medical Physicist Locked Bag 7 Radiation Oncology Department Newcastle Region Mail Centre 2310, NSW, Australia ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 2 Oct 1996 10:20:33 -0300 From: "Joy K. Pye MacSwain" Subject: Re: New interest... On Tue, 1 Oct 1996, ERICA DANIELLE STEVENS wrote: Morning Erica: > First, I am a student, so I have very little money to put into creating a > costume at the moment. I may not be able to create what I would consider > a _good_ costume for a few more years (until after I finish medical > school). So, I suppose what I am asking is where would be a good place Well I am sure you already know that virually everyone will recommend the T-tunic as the easiest and least expensive costume that you could do and I would basically agree with this. However, just because it is a very basic design does not mean that you can't make it really _spiffy_ and do it without a lot of expense. So my suggestions to you would be to consider the time of the Crusaders..that is 11th-13th C and focus your attention onto Sciliy. The Normans conquered and ruled Sciliy and as a consequence introduced into Sciliy their weaving techniques and absorbed the more elaborate/colorful triming patterns of the `Romans/Byzantines'. For good examples of this look at the cornations robes of Rogar II mid-12th C. Usually these decorative touches were done with embroidery/gold metallics and lots of pearls..however you should keep in mind that fabric painting is also period. You can, by carefully studying the patterns on the robes re=produce those designs using good quality fabric paint. In terms of what materials to use, well the Normans of the time used silks and linens as well as wools. Probably the least expensive would be to go with a cotton/linen blend (looks right and wears well), go with a solid color. Bind the neck and cuffs with silk. There is s surviving shirt said to belong to St. Louis of France 13th C made with linen and bound in silk. Add your decorative touches and you will have a _spiffy_ T-tunic which will look good, be reasonably accurate and not cost very much at all. I hope this will help. Have fun. Joy Pye-MacSwain ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 2 Oct 1996 09:17:15 -0600 From: Tim Allison Subject: gloves Can anyone recommend a source for men's black leather gloves suitable for the Renaissance period? Thanks Carol Mitchell root ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 2 Oct 1996 10:34:46 -0400 From: LuAnnMason@AOL.COM Subject: Re: sources & misconceptions This response originated on the historic costume mailing list; however, I believe the questions raised are particularly pertinent to CW reenacting, hence the cross-posting. In a message dated 96-10-02 01:12:35 EDT, Carol Kocian wrote: > So many things have become accepted as correct by reenactors >when they have little or no relation to things that were worn. Some >practices are accepted for safety reasons, such as not using bullets >in a battle reenactment or a stick of rattan wrapped in tape to >simulate a sword. For costumes, someone will look at a picture and >guess at what the item is & how it's made. That effort will be copied, >and then people will copy the copies. In "Whisper Down The Lane" >fashion, the item no longer resembles the original. This phenomenon >of costume development is almost as interesting to study as costume >history of different centuries! > > I would like to discuss more examples of this happening - >how the "accepted" item evolved, and what it should really be. Even >some well-respected sources contain misinformation. I remember >reading about 14th Century "corsets" in Blanche Payne! > > One example is the mobcap for the American Revolution and >earlier; the cap that is made from a circle of fabric gathered to >fit the head with a ruffle remaining all around. In paintings where >the subject is viewed from the front, that construction looks right. >Some of these paintings were made later, after that style of cap >had developed. So the mobcap became the accepted style for a long >time, until further research proved it to be wrong. > > Lady Chiara wrote: >> I find it sad to see ladies wearing sports bras that are just >> as expensive as a good fitted corset under their tudor or >> elizabethan garb. > > These ladies probably think their sports bras give the >correct silhouette. If someone can tell the difference easily, >then the compromise is not working. > > Many people on the list don't write unless a specific >question is asked. Well, here's one - what are the compromises >and examples of incorrect items you see? Specifics, please, with >solutions, citations of better resources, etc. > I think this is a wonderful topic for discussion. These 1860's reenacting versions of "urban myths" are just as difficult to track down as the modern version! As this discussion continues, I'm sure we'll all catch a few more of these "myths" in our own impressions! Here's a few I can think of right off: The brown thread myth: Yes, it's been debunked, but there are still folks out there who believe that original uniform garments were stitched with brown thread because museum originals show this evidence. The thread merely oxidized/chemically altered in response to surrounding conditions. A lady ALWAYS wore something on her head myth: Bunk. Pure bunk, but how many of us suffered through all manner of bonnets, hats, caps and SNOODS because we bought into it. And all this time, we could have been more comfortable and MORE AUTHENTIC just to put our hair up and leave it alone. A lady was NEVER seen in public without gloves myth: More pure bunk. Ballrooms perhaps, but not just "public". Of course, there is little photographic evidence of ballroom scenes, so we must rely upon period etiquette books. And from modern times, we all KNOW just how accurately "ettiquette books" reflect general usage, right? :D The great white snood myth: ugh. Or worse: the day-glo nylon ones. A man's uniform ALWAYS had to have the top button buttoned. Common, yes, but too many photographs show the top button UNBUTTONED. (Dear hubby's pet peeve) A man ALWAYS had on a vest or jacket in public. Again, photographic evidence belies this. (The reason the military allowed officers to wear vests was so that they could remove their coat during NON-DUTY hours, but still be attired as a gentleman (not in shirt sleeves), but obviously this did not carry over to enlisted ranks.) Remember, upon being granted a commision, "By act of congress, you are now considered an officer and a gentleman." Decorum may have demanded that an officer maintain a certain distance from his enlisted men; thus remaining in semi-formal attire may have served the purpose of discouraging fraternization. Anybody else? Regards-- LuAnn LuAnnMason@aol.com Vancouver, WA ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 2 Oct 1996 10:34:58 -0400 From: LuAnnMason@AOL.COM Subject: White and ecru together--ugh (Men may delete) I have several questions for the ladies on the lists: This is a difficulty I have run into pretty frequently, and I'm not sure how best to handle it. If you're making a garment which has an ecru background, and/or ecru trim, how do you handle the "white underthings" question? I just finished a mauve "walking dress" for my daughter (thanks Margo!). I had some 3" wide ecru cotton lace that I picked up years ago which I applied to the skirts, sleeves, and bodice. OK so far. It looked great. Then she tried it on with her WHITE, VERY WHITE ankle length pantalets. Ugh. It was horrible. I've run into the same problem with women's dresses. You make a dress, apply ecru or "blonde" lace, then use white collars, cuffs, or undersleeves, and it makes the blonde lace look filthy, and ruins the entire look of an outfit. In these cases do you: a) Be authentic and wear white underthings anyway. Just cringe every time you look at it. b) Wear white underthings with ecru trim, and REALLY look bad. or c) Make underthings out of cream/ecru cotton which looks nice, but feels farby. d) Any other options I haven't come up with! Likewise, what about when you trim garments with black trim or lace, and the starkness of plain white undersleeves, cuffs or collars just doesn't look good. Is there any historical basis for using black trim on your white undersleeves and collars? I'm thinking "No", because traditionally black dyes are NOT very colorfast, and the boiling and bleaching that white cotton went through just wouldn't be compatible with unstable black dyes. But jeez, I HATE the look of untrimmed white with my black-trimmed garments. Suggestions? Ideas? All help gratefully appreciated, as my four-year-old is standing in the livingroom saying, "Mommy, these pantalets look STUPID with my pretty dress!" :( Regards-- LuAnn LuAnnMason@aol.com Vancouver, WA ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 2 Oct 1996 11:38:34 -0400 From: aleed Subject: Re: Farthingale help Donna, When making the pattern, you have two squarish pieces 22 inches wide for the front and back, and four triangular pieces on the sides, two for the front and two for the back. As the four triangles are cut out of the 22 inch wide fabric and each one flares to almost the width of the fabric, that's four triangles with, say, 20 inches across the bottom of each on. That makes a total of 122 inches. Subtract all seam widths, and you have something around 177 inches On Wed, 2 Oct 1996, Donna Mann wrote: > I am trying to make a farthingale from J. Arnolds book, Patterns of > Fashion. Using the pattern from Libro de Geometria by Alcega. The problem > that I am running into is: using the description in the book the hem is > no where near 117 inches. That is if the pattern is drawn for the 22 inch > wide material mentioned. The best I come up with is 74 inches. > Am I leaving something out? Reading it wrong. What? Any help will be > appreciated. > TIA > Donna Mann > ------------------------------- We've secretly replaced their dilithium crystals with new folgers crystals. Now let's watch them go to warp. ------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 2 Oct 1996 11:35:45 -0500 From: "Sara J. Davitt" Subject: Re: New interest... > mind that fabric painting is also period. You can, by carefully studying > the patterns on the robes re=produce those designs using good quality > fabric paint. ---------------------------------------------- I am perplexed, because I have not found any sources for fabric painting.... (and being a Painting Major, I like the idea) could someone tell me, or direct me to a source that tells what peoples painted thier costume>, and what sorts of pigments/binders they used to make the paint? Thank You very much! Sarahj ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 1 Oct 1996 11:46:34 PDT From: "Marlo W. Peck" Subject: Re: gloves > Can anyone recommend a source for men's black leather gloves suitable = for > the Renaissance period? > Thanks > Carol Mitchell Any pair of men's leather winter gloves can be used if you make a decorat= ive cuff from leather or a stiffened fabric. Use studs, jewels, and trim= s to really dress them up. On the pair I made my husband, I used Black = leather lined gloves and added a cuff of grey suede decorated with gold = fancy studs and a black and gold wide trim. I used a piece of the trim = to cover the seam between the glove and the cuff and they are lovely. Marlo W. Peck ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 2 Oct 1996 10:09:43 -0800 From: Carole Newson-Smith Subject: New Cunnington Book I just purchased the new Cunnington book, and will bring it into the office next week to report. Willow, if you come to my house next Wednesday night, you can look at my copy. Carole Newson-Smith (Cordelia Toser in the SCA) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 2 Oct 1996 10:29:07 -0700 From: Margo Anderson Subject: Re: sources & misconceptions >I think this is a wonderful topic for discussion. These 1860's reenacting >versions of "urban myths" are just as difficult to track down as the modern >version! As this discussion continues, I'm sure we'll all catch a few more >of these "myths" in our own impressions! Here's one that come from the Ren Faire circuit: : everyone in 16th century England wore a tankard or goblet hanging on their belt. Is there any actual documentation for this? Not that I want to discourage actors from fending off heat exhaustion, but I've actually been told that my middle class costume was incorrect because I keep my tankard, scissors, money pouch, eating knife, and spoon in a basket instead of hanging from my person (and probably bashing my toddler in the head.) At the Dickens Fair that occasionally happens out here, we also have the Victorian Women Always Wore Hats fallacy; debutante age girls in lace caps . In fact, the special dress requirements of this age group get entirely overlooked; at my last Victorian event there were several 17 year old girls in dark or jewel toned ball gowns, elaborate jewelry, and caps. Sigh. Margo Anderson ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 2 Oct 1996 10:37:43 -0800 From: Carole Newson-Smith Subject: Thank You I appreciate those people who were kind enough to reply to my question about linen thread. Thank you for taking the time to help out. In a couple of weeks I hope to be purchasing some linen thread - probably from Lacis - so I can try working with it. Carole Newson-Smith (Cordelia Toser in the SCA) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 2 Oct 1996 14:18:33 -0400 From: ERICA DANIELLE STEVENS Subject: Re: New interest... I just wanted to thank all of you that have replied to my post about getting started creating a medival/renaissance costume. Thank you, and I'll be checking more about this one on my own. I know now where to come if I need any more help! :) Erica Stevens ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 2 Oct 1996 11:14:58 -0700 From: The Polsons Subject: Jewish Embroidery HELP! Could people please *stop* sending me information on Jewish embroidery? I am NOT the original requestor, and I'm sure whoever it is would appreciate the information far more than me! Please check attributions more carefully... Thanks! ********************************************** Willow Polson....willow@recreating-history.com Recreating History magazine ..."Historic Crafts, Cooking, and Clothing"... ----> http://www.recreating-history.com <----- Call us toll free! 1-(888) REENACT (733-6228) ********************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 2 Oct 1996 10:34:33 -0700 From: Frances Grimble Subject: White and ecru together; misconceptions LuAnn, It would help to know what period you're costuming for. From your message it sounds like it's somewhere in the Victorian era, but it's not clear when. Anyway, what about using lace collars, cuffs, etc. instead of fabric? The Victorians used lots of lace in cream color, ecru, and black, for collars and so on as well as trims. Our eyes balk at yellowish white and stark or bluish white together; they see some contrast but not quite enough to look intentional. But you can mix different shades of yellowish white, or mix yellowish white with ecru, or mix white, yellowish white, or ecru with black. If you're talking about Civil War era costuming--I have two pairs of undersleeves, probably from the 1850s, which came from the same estate auction. One pair is straight and narrow, in a sheer muslin or lawn with delicate whitework embroidery. These are now off-white but may have yellowed. The other pair is to tack under open flared sleeves. It is a dark shade of cream embroidered net, and it probably was never stark white, even if it has darkened over time. About misconceptions: In my opinion misconceptions are often spread by reenactment/living history costuming guidelines. Some guidelines consciously focus on helping people who need a costume to participate, to put something more or less passable together quickly and inexpensively. But then the look becomes standardized; like the chemise-off-the-shoulder busting-out-of-the-bodice Renaissance Fair wench. On the other hand, some misconceptions are spread by reenactment/living history costumers who are promoting "authenticity." Frankly, I wish people would focus on their own efforts, good or bad, and worry less about whether others are "authentic." Fran Grimble ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 2 Oct 1996 14:11:21 -0500 From: Noelle Nicol Subject: Re: Farthingale help Forgive me if I seem a little perplexed. First, I have ot seen the pattern in question so I cannot easily visualize the layout. But my question is this- Okay, you have 4, 20-inch wide triangles, equalling 80 inches of hem, and 2, 22-inch wide rectangles, equalling 44 inches of hem. While this does add up to 124 total inches, wouldn't the total length *decreased* by seam allowance, since the fabric cannot go beyond its own 22" width? YIS Lyssandre ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 2 Oct 1995 15:05:56 -0400 From: Sharon and/or Mikie Subject: "Costume Design for Dummies" Hello everyone! I am a theatre tech student majoring in costuming, and have a question no one has been able to give me a clear answer on. Sometime back I heard a rumour that there was an IBM program out there that could be used for designing costume. You could enter a person's mearsurements into the program, it would sketch the figure of these measurements for you, and then you could either choose basic garments from the program, or design your own to fit this figure. It had texturing tools, as well as already installed textures for different fabrics. I don't know if this program was an attatchment for AutoCad, 3D Studio Max (which has the capabilities to do all of these things, with a good programmer), or if it was a seperate program altogether. Or maybe this vision came to me in a dream, and it doesn't exist at all (if this is the case, there's a market for it, so if anyone can program...) :) Anyways, I would like to know if this exists, where to find it, what it takes to run it, and if anyone has used it, what's it like?? Oh, price, of course is a concern, but since I am a student, I may be able to get a student registration. Thanks in advance for your help! Sharon ***************************** * * * DON'T MESS WITH TECHIES - * * * * THEY ALL CARRY KNIVES * * * ***************************** ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 2 Oct 1996 14:40:32 -0500 From: Noelle Nicol Subject: No Subject ---------------------- Forwarded by Noelle Nicol/Sunnyvale/US/DGII on 10/02/96 12:31 PM --------------------------- Noelle Nicol 10/02/96 12:09 PM To: LuAnnMason @ AOL.COM @ SMTP cc: h-cotume @ brownvm.brown.edu @ smtp Subject: Re: White and ecru together--ugh (Men may delete) Have you tried going with A "warmer" white? Not necessarily a cream or an ivory, but a white that doesn't have quite such a strong leaning towards the blue-based tones? YIS Lyssandre ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 2 Oct 1996 12:31:42 -0700 From: The Polsons Subject: Re: H-COSTUME Digest - 30 Sep 1996 to 1 Oct 1996 Erica says: >First, I am a student, so I have very little money to put into creating a >costume at the moment. I may not be able to create what I would consider >a _good_ costume for a few more years (until after I finish medical >school). So, I suppose what I am asking is where would be a good place >to start? I have both Irish and English in my ancestry and thought that >might be a good place to start. Oh, and I suppose I should have >mentioned that I'm looking to the medival and renaissance time periods. >:) If anyone has ideas on the matter you can email me at my personal >address since it will most likely not be of interest to the entire group. AHAH! But that's where you're wrong! This is what the list is for... I'm doing late 15th c. "civilized" Irish (as mentioned previously) in the SCA (gasp!) and have been working on authentic, but relatively inexpensive, outfits for hubby and me. By civilized, I mean those Irish who adopted the fashions and ways of the new English rulers, as opposed to the "wild" Irish who opposed them. I philosophically side with the wild Irish, but have found that it's WAY easier to reenact their civilized cousins! This could be especially appropriate for you, as being both Irish and English. I've found that the civilized Irish of the Tudor era basically wore English fashion, with a few variations. I sneak more Celtic stuff like knotwork onto mine and have a decidedly Irish flair, while following English costume of that era. My favorite outfit is a navy linen overdress with linen underskirt and separate blouse. The overdress laces up the back, and the skirt is split in front, using the selvege edges as the front edges. The skirt is simply a plain skirt the right length with a drawstring waistband, and the blouse varies depending on my mood and the event. I might wear a leine-like blouse for more medieval events, or a button-cuffed cotton gauze blouse for hot ren faires. The overdress uses about 3 yards of linen or linen blend, which I get at New York Fabrics on sale in the off season. The blouse uses about 2-1/2 or 3, depending on the style of pattern you use. Leines use much more fabricdue to their huge sleeves, so you might not want to use them until you have more money! They're not documentable to the 16th century anyway - "Images of Ireland", a sketchbook from that era, shows civilized Irish ladies wearing a blouse with large, baggy sleeves, but they are NOT gathered up the seam like the man's leine and are only modestly baggy by comparison with a cuff at the wrist. Yeah, I could go on about this all day. Let me know if you want or need to hear more! 8-) Then Carol Kocian said: > Many people on the list don't write unless a specific >question is asked. Well, here's one - what are the compromises >and examples of incorrect items you see? Specifics, please, with >solutions, citations of better resources, etc. If I could pick just one thing that drives me NUTS about the SCA costuming, it's those Gawdawful baggy pants all the menfolk wear!!!!!! I can find NO reference for them anywhere, except among poor laborers who tied them to their legs with cross-trussing! ARGH! I HATE those pants!!! My solution? Either use dance tights (not fully accurate either, but at least the silhouette is in the ballpark!), or tie the ugly sacks to your legs and pretend you're poor! Sheesh! That and horrible shoes like fringed moccasins and biker boots. Imported "china doll" shoes are incredibly cheap ($3.00 on sale) and look right from medieval times through the renaissance (check sources for your area of Europe). And this is for both men & women! If you need more arch support, many styles of Doc Martins are pretty close, although the sole is usually too thick and heavy. These run about $100 a pair, but if you need 'em and have no other resource (like a custom shoe maker), you may want to splurge. Finally, Black Swan Designs will make custom-fitted medieval turnshoes, complete with moss-filled pointy toes, for only $100! These were worn with wooden pattens to avoid excessive sole wear, sharp stones, and mud (they have soft, moccasin-like suede soles), and the matching hand-carved pattens are available for only $40. These guys do the best, most accurate period workmanship I've personally ever seen! Contact them at: Black Swan Designs, 17228 Voorhes Lane, Ramona, CA 92065-7109, (619) 789-2299. ********************************************** Willow Polson....willow@recreating-history.com Recreating History magazine ..."Historic Crafts, Cooking, and Clothing"... ----> http://www.recreating-history.com <----- Call us toll free! 1-(888) REENACT (733-6228) ********************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 2 Oct 1996 16:01:41 -0400 From: Joanne Haug Subject: "Victoriana" update Hi Everyone, I have updated the "Victoriana- Resources for Victorian Living" site with lots of new articles, including: 1] "Victorian Gardens" (also a gardening hat article) 2] "The Unsuitable Suitor of 1879" (not all Victorian men were gentlemen) 3] "Is the Red Nose from the Corset or Liquor?" (about tight lacing) Check out our "Harpers Bazar" online section with articles and images of 19th C. costume including mourning and funeral customs. And visit all the new Museum and 19th C. website links found on our "What's New" page. Joanne Haug "Victoriana-Resources for Victorian Living" http://www.victoriana.com and "Reflections of the Past, Antique Costume & Textiles" http://www.victoriana.com/antiques voice/fax: (216)835-6924 ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 2 Oct 1996 16:29:56 -0700 From: Glenna Jo & Bill Christen Subject: Re: sources & misconceptions LuAnnMason@aol.com wrote: >A lady ALWAYS wore something on her head myth: ...we could have been more >comfortable and MORE AUTHENTIC just to put our hair up and leave it alone. This myth is only partially bunk. Daycaps did go out of fashion by the 1860's, but they still wore a bonnet or hat when out of doors. Look at any outdoor photo, engraving or any other image from the period and women are wearing a hat or a bonnet. Going bare headed *in public* is a late 20th century phenomena. >A lady was NEVER seen in public without gloves myth: This is definitely a class issue. Even upper class women went barehanded for many activities out of sheer practicality. How can you feel fabric when shopping with gloves on? Ladies and gentlemen did wear gloves for formal social occasions, including balls, ceremonial social calls (the 10-15 minute variety, not the long chats with friends kind) church, etc. Poor people didn't have the time or money for such niceties for the most part. >...so we must rely upon period etiquette books. And from modern times, we all >KNOW just how accurately "ettiquette books" reflect general usage, right? :D They are often good sources of info about what some people were or were not doing. If they had to be told Not to do something, then someone must have been doing it. :-) > The great white snood myth: ugh. Or worse: the day-glo nylon ones. The over use of hairnets in general! Even the word 'Snood' is inaccurate. They called them nets or hairnets. The word snood if it even appeared in period dictionaries was defined as an archaic Scottish term. It took until the 1940's revival for the term snood to come into common usage. > A man ALWAYS had on a vest or jacket in public. Again, photographic evidence > belies this. It does and it doesn't. The rare photo of men in just their shirt sleeves generally show them doing hard manual labor. Shirts were underwear and people in the 19th century were nothing if not extremely modest. Yes, working class men sometimes did go without their vests and jackets when they were working, but they would have been considered awe inspiringly rude and crude to do so when ladies were present. This is a difficult concept for people to understand who have grown up in an era where they have to be told things like "No shirts, no shoes, no service." I have seen a number of photos of slaves working in the fields who are wearing vests over their shirts! Would a white man of the era be out done by a field hand? IMHO, a man in his shirt sleeves when women are present is not appropriate. It was a magic moment for Suzanne Carter & I when we were escorted to the officer's tent at Perryville 130th and Steve Osman and Tom Shaw of the 1st MIs scrambled to button their vests and put on their coats to greet us. Men in the ranks apologized to us for not having their coats on when we were escorted to the head of one of the company streets to deliver seed cakes and greet some of our friends from home. It warmed my etiquette police heart. :-) Now for my big myth. White shirts and skirts! This is almost a uniform for reenactors. It is probably due to the fact that they are easy to make, there is a pattern available and it requires no real fitting. Someone saw a photo or two and it was a familiar style. Also picking fabric is cheap and easy. Mix and match skirt and top combinations are so familiar to modern women it's hard to imagine it hasn't always been this way too. Unfortunately, it was a very rare fashion in the 1860's. I was mainly limited to very young and trendy women. Juanita Leish's research confirms what I've been seeing in our 2,000+ CdV's as well. The few women in white shirts are all obviously very young, most look to be teenagers or very early 20's at the oldest. Even if a young and fashionable woman is wearing such an outfit, it is rarely done right. Even a loose fitting garibaldi style shirt were controlled in some manner, generally being fitted onto a waistband hidden inside the skirt which kept the fullness concentrated in the center back and either side of the center front. It should also be worn with a jacket or at least a very wide belt. (Those double pointed "medici" belts are way over done too. Another rare and young fashion) IMHO, even at a huge event with a large number of civilians any more than one or two young ladies in such an outfit is far too many. Women of any age wearing white shirts and unhooped skirts is flat out inaccurate. Another fashion myth includes any woman's hat that perches on the head. Perhaps people looked at later images when hats did perch. Again, these "juliet" types caps are cheap and easy to make. They are sold by lots of merchants for just that reason. Unfortunately again, they aren't correct. Hats of the CW era fit squarely down on the head. They were worn basically parallel to the ground, not tilted on the back of the head as I so often see them worn. They also *tended* to be worn more by younger women since they were more casual. Fortunately, accurate bonnets are becoming more widely available so more women can start wearing them, especially on Sunday. Hats were definitly Not worn on Sunday, and certainly Not to church! Catholics of a certain age can remember when a woman did not enter church without a hat; back then, no matter what your religion (certain religious sects excluded here, they had their own church laws) women wore bonnets, not hat to church. Hats were far too informal for church wear. Well, I did it again, ranted on and on... I will now try and step off my soap box without tripping. I should be good at it by now, I've had enough practice. :-) Flame shields up, Glenna Jo Christen LHS, LSFS & MSAS gwjchris@rust.net ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 2 Oct 1996 18:09:16 -0400 From: Gretchen M Beck Subject: Re: sources & misconceptions Excerpts from internet.other.h-costume: 2-Oct-96 Re: sources & misconceptions by Margo Anderson@HOOKED.NE > Here's one that come from the Ren Faire circuit: : everyone in 16th century > England wore a tankard or goblet hanging on their belt. Is there any > actual documentation for this? Not that I want to discourage actors from > fending off heat exhaustion, but I've actually been told that my middle > class costume was incorrect because I keep my tankard, scissors, money > pouch, eating knife, and spoon in a basket instead of hanging from my person > (and probably bashing my toddler in the head.) I've never seen pictures of such. I did see a picture of a leather goblet holder--a tubular object with a lid that could be hung from the belt. The knife and money pouch, on the other hand, I've seen lots of pictures of, though mostly of the peasant classes (see the Brueghal drawings of peasants in the marketplace--they almost all have pouches and knives hanging from their belts). I don't know where women carry their spoons, but again, Brueghal shows some men carrying them stuck into their hats. I suspect silverwear was carried wherever was convenient; probably in a pocket or tied into the clothing somewhere. It's pervasive, though. toodles, margaret ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 2 Oct 1996 18:28:39 -0400 From: "M. Cricket Bauer" Subject: Ecru LuAnn The black garment with stark white undergarments/undersleeves is excruciatingly correct, and one that I think is quite nice. I think that the problem with your ensemble is that fact that you have ecru lace on the dress. As part of my thesis, I've laboriously typed the fashion descriptions from the war year mags into my computer, and white lace showed up with evening dress, ball gowns, and on undersleeves and collars- maybe on petticoats. The most common trim, throughout the war, were black velvet bands- on almost any color, any pattern. These bands were sometimes edged w/ lace, either flat or slightly fulled. "Blonde" lace refers to the type of lace and the silk that it is made from, and it came in black white, and natural -very common trim on bonnets. The ecru color looks very pleasing to modern eyes, but, from what I have read, it is also a modern form of trim. I'd be very interested to hear if others have evidence of ecru trim on dresses. Cricket ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 2 Oct 1996 17:17:08 -0700 From: Frances Grimble Subject: Ecru lace The blonde silk lace I've seen is fairly yellow, yellower than linen and cotton laces; though even those tend to be natural off-white rather than stark blue-white. "Black blonde" was also used. LuAnn's message did not make it entirely clear what period(s) she is costuming for. Because good lace is expensive it has always been reused. (Also, by the 1840s patterned machine laces were manufactured, and the makers turned to earlier laces for design inspiration.) However, in the 1870s the Victorians became keenly interested in collecting and using antique lace, and this remained a passion till about 1910. (Of course, for some people it still is.) The Victorians and Edwardians were aware that machine lace was replacing hand lace. Also, antique lace looked inherited, implying the wearer was "old money." What I'm getting at is, antique lace had so much cachet that they also tried to make newer laces look antique by dying them ecru. This was a light-to-medium coffee color, and in fact coffee was used for home dyeing; so was tea. Pinker shades of beige lace became fashionable in the 1920s and 1930s; I most often see them on lingerie. As I mentioned recently on this list, late Victorian and Edwardian laces are available at vintage clothing stores and shows. It's easier to find shaped pieces like collars, cuffs, and berthas than long lengths of trim. But these are sometimes adaptable for earlier periods and if you look you can find the trims too. It's worth hunting; most antique lace is much more attractive and authentic looking than any modern lace you can find. Fran Grimble ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 2 Oct 1996 22:33:23 -0400 From: suzanne hader Subject: HMR (fwd) ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Wed, 02 Oct 1996 11:01:43 -0700 From: "Rene L. Ash" To: H-COSTUME-request@BROWNVM.brown.edu Subject: HMR NOW AVAILABLE - VOL I-NO. 6 - SEPTEMBER 1996 -------------------------------------------- HISTORICAL MEDIA REVIEW (ISSN 1090-1124) The exclusive international published monthly encompassing world history. September issue devoted to all Historical Book and Electronic Reviews: Plus - THREE MONTH VIEW OF FORTHCOMING TITLES (September, October, November) HISTORICAL NEWS ITEMS For those interested, please respond by EMail: reafilm@nfinity.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 2 Oct 1996 20:15:59 -0700 From: Julie Adams Subject: Re: White and ecru together--ugh (Men may delete) >d) Any other options I haven't come up with! If your lace was white and has now yellowed, you might try gently soaking and gently hand washing the lace in Biz. Its best to reblock it afterwards. Good Luck Julie Adams ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 2 Oct 1996 22:08:51 -0700 From: Glenna Jo & Bill Christen Subject: Re: White and ecru together; misconceptions Frances Grimble wrote: > Anyway, what about using lace collars, cuffs, etc. instead of fabric? > The Victorians used lots of lace in cream color, ecru, and black, for > collars and so on as well as trims. It is dangerous to make sweeping statements about what Victorians wore since that term covers an incredibly long span of time in fashion terms. For example, lace of various kinds was very popular for collars in the 1850's, but it was rarely ever used in the 1860's. As for black being used in collars, the only documentation I have found for black being used in collars was for mourning and little or no lace was used for this purpose, especially the first stage of mourning. Crape was the material of choice for this purpose. Collars were almost invariably white in the period LuAnn is asking about (1860's) mainly because white was easy to boil clean as well as looking neat and clean to their eyes. >In my opinion misconceptions are often spread by reenactment/living history >costuming guidelines. Only if they are based on speculation without any documentation behind them. Good guidelines are subject to change as new information is found through research. Guidelines are only as good as the research that goes into them. Not having any guidelines at all does nothing to eliminate misconceptions. Rejecting all guidelines because some are not based on ongoing research is throwing the baby out with the bath water. Standards go up as more knowledge is gained. What was concidered a really good outfit a few years ago would be considered marginally accurate at best now based on current research. Glenna Jo Christen gwjchris@rust.net ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 2 Oct 1996 21:49:46 -0700 From: Glenna Jo & Bill Christen Subject: Re: sources & misconceptions-ball dresses Margo Anderson wrote: > > At the Dickens Fair that occasionally happens out here..debutante age girls >...the special dress requirements of this age group get entirely overlooked; >at my last Victorian event there were several 17 year old girls in dark or >jewel toned ball gowns, elaborate jewelry, and caps. Sigh. Ah! That reminds me of another 1860's reenacting myth. I have heard often that "all" balldresses were white or pale pastel so they would show up well in a gas or lamp lit ball room. Yes, young single ladies were generally dressed in white or very pale dresses for their first few "seasons" out in society since they should stand out in the crowd, they were also symbols of innocence as well. If every one wore white no one would stand out! Once a woman married, or perhaps after she "passed the Rubicon of 30 years" (I love that line from one of my etiquette books), she would start choosing darker, or more subdued colors for her formal wear. Of course what is generally worn at most dances have little or nothing to do with period fashions, but a lot to do with Hollywood and prom dresses. Oh yeah! The big myth! Ball dresses are appropriate to wear to an outdoor dance! How many dresses have been ruined at these so called Balls? Call them hops or dances and wear an ordinary dress. There are more and more indoor dances being held all the time, and many of them qualify as real balls where a ball dress not only won't get ruined, but where it can be seen and appreciated. Give me time, I'll think of more myths I'm sure! Glenna Jo Christen gwjchris@rust.net ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 2 Oct 1996 20:34:48 -0700 From: Julie Adams Subject: Re: sources & misconceptions >The knife and money pouch, on the other hand, I've seen lots of >pictures of, though mostly of the peasant classes (see the Brueghal >drawings of peasants in the marketplace--they almost all have pouches >and knives hanging from their belts). I don't know where women carry >their spoons, but again, Brueghal shows some men carrying them stuck >into their hats. I suspect silverwear was carried wherever was >convenient; probably in a pocket or tied into the clothing somewhere. > >It's pervasive, though. > >toodles, margaret In the first 1/2 of the 16th century you see lots of women with long narrow sashes or cords or narrow belts (about 1/2"). at the end, hanging down about the knee level is often a purse, keys, and and eating knife (single-bladed, no quillions). This style phases out about 1540s for upper class women though. I have seen some German Landesknects portrayed with spoons, but they were satirical portraits showing "the cook" who has now joined the Landesknechts. Julie Adams ------------------------------ End of H-COSTUME Digest - 1 Oct 1996 to 2 Oct 1996 ************************************************** From ???@??? Mon Oct 07 13:16:53 1996 Received: from brownvm.brown.edu by mail.math.TU-Berlin.DE with SMTP id AA05619 (5.67b8/IDA-1.5 for ); Fri, 4 Oct 1996 05:06:57 +0100 Message-Id: <199610040406.AA05619@mail.math.TU-Berlin.DE> Received: from BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU by BROWNVM.brown.edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with BSMTP id 5265; Fri, 04 Oct 96 00:02:34 EDT Received: from BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU (NJE origin LISTSERV@BROWNVM) by BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 6727; Fri, 4 Oct 1996 00:02:27 -0400 Date: Fri, 4 Oct 1996 00:01:31 -0400 Reply-To: Historic Costume List Sender: Historic Costume List From: Automatic digest processor Subject: H-COSTUME Digest - 2 Oct 1996 to 3 Oct 1996 To: Recipients of H-COSTUME digests There are 40 messages totalling 1543 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. corsets (2) 2. sources & misconceptions (5) 3. Patterns and medieval Jewish (2) 4. Sources and misconceptions (3) 5. Jewish Embroidery 6. Drawstring necklines 7. Pincushions 8. tipping fluid substitute (5) 9. Costume Design Software. (3) 10. Flag Silk. (2) 11. Re Pincushions (2) 12. "Costume Design for Dummies" (2) 13. Research Fellowships at Winterthur 14. Things dangling from belts (2) 15. New Dissertation Fellowship 16. ecru vs. white, misconceptions, & computer program 17. Tying Objects to Oneself 18. Sources & Misconceptions 19. sources & misconceptions-ball dresses 20. Rocking Horse Farm 21. Norwegian 'bunader' 22. white linen ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 2 Oct 1996 18:09:01 -0300 From: Margaret Rae Carignan Subject: Re: corsets On Mon, 30 Sep 1996, M. Cricket Bauer wrote: > My research in 19th century corsets, (at least before the 1880s as that > add cited by someone else would indicate), including examining > originals, lead me to conclude that our plain steel boning is a better > choice than spiral boning. > > Cricket > I would be curious to know how plain steel boning will react on curved seams, such as those in any 19th century corset. I would have thought it would twist something wicked! Has anyone any experience with this? Meg Carignan ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 2 Oct 1996 19:03:10 -0300 From: Margaret Rae Carignan Subject: Re: sources & misconceptions On Wed, 2 Oct 1996, Margo Anderson wrote: > >I think this is a wonderful topic for discussion. These 1860's reenacting > >versions of "urban myths" are just as difficult to track down as the modern > >version! As this discussion continues, I'm sure we'll all catch a few more > >of these "myths" in our own impressions! > > Here's one that come from the Ren Faire circuit: : everyone in 16th century > England wore a tankard or goblet hanging on their belt. Is there any > actual documentation for this? Not that I want to discourage actors from > fending off heat exhaustion, but I've actually been told that my middle > class costume was incorrect because I keep my tankard, scissors, money > pouch, eating knife, and spoon in a basket instead of hanging from my person > (and probably bashing my toddler in the head.) You're right - they're wrong. In all my years of research, I have NEVER seen a tankard hanging off a person. A pouch, perhaps (especially on a man, but ocassionally on a woman) - I've seen spoons worn as hat pins, and (I hate to admit it) have fed the fallacy by wearing all my sewing tools hanging off my belt at once. I stopped doing that, not because it was hideously inauthentic, but because telling people that it is didn't stop them from copying me! (I'll take responsibility for my own inauthenticity, but NOT any one elses!) Apart from the total lack of documentary evidence (so far) think how impractical and dangerous - a cutpurse is a bad thing, but a cuttankard? A cutentirepersonalpossession? Meg/Francesca ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 2 Oct 1996 21:59:50 -0700 From: don and carolyn richardson Subject: Re: Patterns and medieval Jewish Mrs C S Yeldham wrote: > > Cindy said > > >I have McCalls 8449. I hope by using it and another pattern, both > >slightly modified, to make a costume for our local RenFaire next > >year. The girls/womens pattern consists of a drawstring neck > >gown > I thought the request was for Tudor patterns? I'm sorry, but what is > described here has very little to do with what was worn in the Tudor period > - to start with the smock doesn't have a drawstring neck (friends working > on this are now putting drawstring necks to the 18th century at the > earliest), Maybe in England, but not in Italy. Drawstring necks were done in the Renaissance there - look at Lynne Lawner's "Lives of the Courtesans" for several examples. There's a particularly good one on page 102 of Palma Vecchio's "Flora" from the 16th century - this chemise is obviously drawn shut since it is partially opened and the blue ribbon drawstring is blatently visable. There's another example on page 112 from Raphael, although it's less obvious there. And if your copy has the dust jacket, the front cover painting is also a drawstring chemise (again illustrated well), again by Vecchio. But I don't recall any examples of this from Tudor paintings, at least nothing real obvious. Tetchubah ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 2 Oct 1996 22:54:13 -0700 From: Joan Broneske Subject: Re: corsets I am currently working on a Victorian corset and am using spring steel = boning. If you make the channels just wide enough to take the boning, = it shouldn't twist. I am not quite finished with it yet, but so far it seems to be working = out wonderfully. It holds the shape yet is flexible and on curved = seams, it just follows the curve, as it bends not only back and forth = but side to side. Joan ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 2 Oct 1996 23:01:51 -0700 From: Frances Grimble Subject: Sources and misconceptions Glenna, I am aware that the Victorian period encompassed a number of style changes. I mentioned "Victorian" lace because LuAnn posted a question to the h-costume list, which discusses costumes of many historic periods, without specifying what period(s) she was costuming for. However, her question about combining lace and fabric colors is valid for a variety of periods. So was my suggestion that she use appropriate-looking antique lace even if it was actually made later. I think we'll have to disagree about reenactment "standards" and "guidelines." An academic researcher may have access to primary sources that are difficult for most people to get access to, and get valuable information from others in the field. I think the secondary sources produced by such researchers can be very valuable. There are also primary (or reprinted) sources that are fairly easy to get hold of; and some that aren't as easy, but possible. These are the types of sources I prefer to rely on. They are also the sources used by people who write reenactment guidelines. But frankly, I don't need someone else to read them for me. I have never belonged to any group with costume "standards" or "guidelines"; but from my observation these seem largely motivated by group politics and competition. For example, I'm not interested in whether other people wearing colored satin ballgowns are the right "real life" age and marital status for them. Reenactment isn't real life, what they wear is none of my business, and I would not want to spoil their enjoyment by criticizing them. Nor do I criticize the way they dance in the ballroom. Instead, I teach classes. Fran Grimble http://www.best.com/~lavolta/dance/index.htm ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 2 Oct 1996 23:13:22 -0700 From: Sandra McDaniel Subject: Jewish Embroidery Sorry they are sending the stuff to you. I'm the original poster. Could you forward anything you've gotten? Thanks and please accept my apologies for the inconvenience. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 3 Oct 1996 09:55:00 BST From: Mrs C S Yeldham Subject: Drawstring necklines >Mrs C S Yeldham wrote: > friends working > on this are now putting drawstring necks to the 18th century at the > earliest), Tetchubah said >Maybe in England, but not in Italy. Drawstring necks were done in the >Renaissance there - look at Lynne Lawner's "Lives of the Courtesans" for > several examples. There's a particularly good one on page 102 of Palma >Vecchio's "Flora" from the 16th century - this chemise is obviously >drawn shut since it is partially opened and the blue ribbon drawstring >is blatently visable. There's another example on page 112 from Raphael, >although it's less obvious there. And if your copy has the dust >jacket, the front cover painting is also a drawstring chemise (again >illustrated well), again by Vecchio. >But I don't recall any examples of this from Tudor paintings, at least >nothing real obvious. I have to be pedantic here. If you say 'Tudor' or 'Elizabethan' then you mean England, before or after 1558 (this is where I get the date wrong!). There are other terms referring to Europe or parts of Europe, which do not apply to England (or other countries) eg Counter-Reformation Europe refers explicitly to post-1562 Catholic Europe (after the Council of Trent). Renaissance Italy usually refers to late 15th century, very early 16th century, before the impact of the Reformation (about 1515). Secondly, I don't know these particular pictures, but I have seen others from the period which *look* like drawstrings. In ones I've examined carefully, what looks like a drawstring, usually a ribbon, actually has the gathers sewn to it - it would not have run freely. I made the smock of my wedding dress this way, based on a 1515 Italian picture. I cannot think of any Tudor or Elizabethan picture where the smock has a drawsting neck. The fashions in Italy were very different to those in England - read Shakespeare's plays for contemporary views on Italians! Sorry to be dogmatic about it, but it is one of the myths that turns up in the events I do, together with the idea that every woman showed off as much of her bosom as possible! Caroline ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 3 Oct 1996 10:15:00 BST From: Mrs C S Yeldham Subject: Pincushions On Wed, 2 Oct 1996, Margo Anderson wrote: > Here's one that come from the Ren Faire circuit: : everyone in 16th century > England wore a tankard or goblet hanging on their belt. Is there any > actual documentation for this? Not that I want to discourage actors from > fending off heat exhaustion, but I've actually been told that my middle > class costume was incorrect because I keep my tankard, scissors, money > pouch, eating knife, and spoon in a basket instead of hanging from my person > (and probably bashing my toddler in the head.) Meg/Francesca wrote >You're right - they're wrong. In all my years of research, I have NEVER >seen a tankard hanging off a person. A pouch, perhaps (especially on a >man, but ocassionally on a woman) I agree, I think the pictures are remarkable for how little people wore hanging from their belts, especially after you've tried coping with an event with no-where else to put anything! Pouch (presumably holding spoon - they are big enough) and often a bollock dagger stuck through the gap between pouch and belt, with a knife on the other side, is about the limit. Janet Arnold says women's purses would often be hung off a belt around an inner garment, so that what we see is the gown without anything hung from the belt, or unbelted. The other thing they used was a snap bag, mine is about 15 inches wide by about 2ft deep with an overlapping flap about 6 inches long (buttoned), an insert between front and back about 3 inches wide and a strap long enough to go over my shoulder so it hung at about hip height - made out of wool. When I was playing a thief, it was the best thing for wandering about with I've ever come across - I got more in there than anyone could believe! >- I've seen spoons worn as hat pins, and >(I hate to admit it) have fed the fallacy by wearing all my sewing tools >hanging off my belt at once. I stopped doing that, not because it was >hideously inauthentic, but because telling people that it is didn't stop >them from copying me! Some of these accutrements are obviously designed for hanging off belts, eg the pincusions associated with some purses - would this be only whilst being used? Mind you, think of the dangers of looking after children with a pincushion swinging from your hip! Caroline ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 3 Oct 1996 08:47:47 -0400 From: "Johanna R. Forte" Subject: tipping fluid substitute HELP!!! We are in the middle of constructing a 1775 corset and have run out of tipping fluid (paint like liquid which seals the cut ends). Does anyone have any suggestions for a substitute? I do not have time to order any more until after the show is over. Thanks in advance!! Johanna R. Forte Costume Designer Kutztown University ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 3 Oct 1996 08:08:23 -0500 From: "EGSMITH@OPPD.GOV(Earley G. Smith)" Subject: Costume Design Software. In response to: >I am a theatre tech student majoring in costuming, and have a question no >one has been able to give me a clear answer on. Sometime back I heard a >rumour that there was an IBM program out there that could be used for >designing costume.... Thanks in advance for your help! >Sharon You can use a software program called "Fittingly Sew" that is put out by Bartley Software. It is a bit pricey, but is a very good program. I have been able to design some very exquisite early 19th century (War of 1812) period clothing with it. You can contact them by e-mail at "72133.3102@compuserve.com." Earley Smith ******************************************************************************* ******* If Pro is the opposite of Con, and Progress is going forward, then Congress . . . ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 3 Oct 1996 08:18:42 -0500 From: "EGSMITH@OPPD.GOV(Earley G. Smith)" Subject: Flag Silk. I have been looking for silk that is wide enough to make one buff and one green flag (to be painted on) that measures 5 feet on the hoist by 6 feet on the fly, and two blue flags that are 6 feet on the hoist by 7-1/2 feet on the fly. But I haven't had any luck. I really don't want to seam two pieces together, this would not only be incorrect, but would look really tacky. The material has to be the full dimension of the flags fields, and then the insignia is then painted on. Does anyone know of a source of silk that is at least 5 feet wide for the first two flags and 7-1/2 feet wide for the second two flags? I would prefer pure silk as this is the correct material, but if none is available, does anyone know of a source that has a partial silk or silk look suitable material of these widths to make our flags with? Cheers, Earley Smith ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 3 Oct 1996 07:45:18 -0600 From: "Morgan E. Smith" Subject: Re: Flag Silk. I don't know about sources, but if you can find the right material in the right dimensions, I can't think of any way to get it in two colours except by dyeing it in the Japanese fashion of Bokashi. You will need a frame specific to the size of your material, special dyes, soybean mordant and wax to do this. Why is it incorrect to make this out of two pieces seamed together? I haven't seen anything that tells me it was not done throughout history. Morgan On Thu, 3 Oct 1996, EGSMITH@OPPD.GOV(Earley G. Smith) wrote: > I have been looking for silk that is wide enough to make one buff and one > green flag (to be painted on) that measures 5 feet on the hoist by 6 feet on > the fly, and two blue flags that are 6 feet on the hoist by 7-1/2 feet on the > fly. But I haven't had any luck. I really don't want to seam two pieces > together, this would not only be incorrect, but would look really tacky. The > material has to be the full dimension of the flags fields, and then the > insignia is then painted on. Does anyone know of a source of silk that is at > least 5 feet wide for the first two flags and 7-1/2 feet wide for the second > two flags? I would prefer pure silk as this is the correct material, but if > none is available, does anyone know of a source that has a partial silk or > silk look suitable material of these widths to make our flags with? > > Cheers, > Earley Smith > ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 3 Oct 1996 23:58:33 +1000 From: acacia@GIL.COM.AU Subject: Re Pincushions Greetings all Although I do agree with you in regards to the lack of pictures with tankards hanging off the belt I would like to add to the discussion that I have seen one 15 century painting done in the style of Bruger (sp?) which show two peasants - a male and female, outdoors and each had like a leather sash tied to their waist (one side was thick at least 6" or more) going to thinner on the other side. Buttoned to this leather sash (the buttons are very obvious) are a comb, sissors and other items dangleing off the sash - it is quite unusual and I have not seen another like it. I am trying to find the picture in my library so that I can give you the reference - does anyone else know the painting I am talking about? ="="="="="="="="="="="="="="="="="="="="="="="="="="="="="="="="="="="="=" Acacia d'Navarre (Chris d'Aquino) St Florian-della-Riviere, Lochac, West Kingdom (Brisbane, Queensland, Australia) Acacia@gil.com.au ="="="="="="="="="="="="="="="="="="="="="="="="="="="="="="="="="="="="=" ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 2 Oct 1996 09:30:07 PDT From: "Marlo W. Peck" Subject: Re: sources & misconceptions I think that the tankard on the belt began in the Ren Faire and carried = over to the SCA because people wanted to drink without carrying a can or = bottle around. Not everyone wants to carry a basket around so the belt = method sort of evolved naturally. Over these many years it has grown to = the level of tradition backed by myth that is believed by the non-researc= h types to be history. Marlo W. Peck Knowne to the Society as Muriel deRedfearne > > Here's one that come from the Ren Faire circuit: : everyone in > 16th century > > England wore a tankard or goblet hanging on their belt. Is there > any > > actual documentation for this? Not that I want to discourage > actors from > > fending off heat exhaustion, but I've actually been told that my > middle > > class costume was incorrect because I keep my tankard, scissors, > money > > pouch, eating knife, and spoon in a basket instead of hanging from > my person > > (and probably bashing my toddler in the head.) > > You're right - they're wrong. In all my years of research, I have > NEVER > seen a tankard hanging off a person. A pouch, perhaps (especially on > a > man, but ocassionally on a woman) - I've seen spoons worn as hat > pins, and > (I hate to admit it) have fed the fallacy by wearing all my sewing > tools > hanging off my belt at once. I stopped doing that, not because it > was > hideously inauthentic, but because telling people that it is didn't > stop > them from copying me! (I'll take responsibility for my own > inauthenticity, > but NOT any one elses!) > > Apart from the total lack of documentary evidence (so far) think how > impractical and dangerous - a cutpurse is a bad thing, but a > cuttankard? A > cutentirepersonalpossession? > > Meg/Francesca ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 3 Oct 1996 09:31:39 -0500 From: Sheryl Nance-Durst Subject: Re: tipping fluid substitute >HELP!!! We are in the middle of constructing a 1775 corset and have run >out of tipping fluid (paint like liquid which seals the cut ends). Does >anyone have any suggestions for a substitute? I do not have time to >order any more until after the show is over. Johanna, Can you run to your local hardware store? Most of them carry a similar product which is used to coat the handles of tools. I don't remember the brand name right now but they should know what you're talking about if you describe the stuff to them. Sheryl J. Nance-Durst ...one of the secret masters of Kansas City MO Public Library the world: a librarian. They p_sheryl@kcpl.lib.mo.us control information. Don't ever p**s one off. - Spider Robinson, _The Callahan Touch_ (Opinions expressed in this message do not reflect the viewpoint of the Kansas City MO Public Library.) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 3 Oct 1996 09:49:07 -0500 From: Sheryl Nance-Durst Subject: Re: "Costume Design for Dummies" >I am a theatre tech student majoring in costuming, and have a question no >one has been able to give me a clear answer on. Sometime back I heard a >rumour that there was an IBM program out there that could be used for >designing costume. Sharon, There are a number of software packages designed for the home sewer that might work. Check out http://www.hk.super.net/~rlowe/sew.html It's a page listing most of these packages with comments on them & links to places where you can download free demos of them. If you are specifically looking for something designed for the theatre, then I only know of one software package. It's called "B Famous on Stage". The web page for it is http://www.newstuff.com/ I haven't used any of them myself, but I imagine that at least one of these programs would be useful to you. To the person who mentioned "Fittingly Sew": I was under the impression that the company that developed this is no longer selling it. Did another company pick it up? I was thinking about buying it, but they discontinued it before I could make up my mind. :( Sheryl J. Nance-Durst ...one of the secret masters of Kansas City MO Public Library the world: a librarian. They p_sheryl@kcpl.lib.mo.us control information. Don't ever p**s one off. - Spider Robinson, _The Callahan Touch_ (Opinions expressed in this message do not reflect the viewpoint of the Kansas City MO Public Library.) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 3 Oct 1996 10:46:00 -0400 From: Gretchen Buggeln Subject: Research Fellowships at Winterthur Winterthur Museum invites applications for its 1997-98 residential fellowship programs: NEH Fellowships: Available to scholars pursuing advanced research for four to twelve months with stipends up to $30,000. Winterthur Fellowships: Available to academic, museum, and independent scholars, and to support dissertation research for one to six months with stipends from $1,000 to $2,000 per month. One fellowship devoted to the history of business and/or technology is jointly sponsored by the Hagely Museum and Library. Winterthur's rich and varied resources will support research on many topics in American social and cultural history, including pre-industrial crafts, Shaker history, decorative arts, painting and graphics, consumerism, foodways, the history of childhood, travel and tourism, public memory, and everyday life. Resources include a library of approximately half a million imprints, manuscripts, visual materials, and printed ephemera from the seventeenth through the early twentieth century and a museum collection of 89,000 domestic artifacts and works of art made or used in America to 1840. Application deadline for the 1997-98 academic year is December 1, 1996. For an application packet, please write to: Gary Kulik, Director Research Fellowship Program Winterthur Museum, Garden, and Library Winterthur DE 19735 (302) 888-4649 email=pelli@udel.Dedu ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 3 Oct 1996 11:45:33 -0400 From: Mary Smith Subject: Things dangling from belts Long ago and far, far away I worked at an 18th C historic site. This was fairly early in the authenticity daze. We were issued a set of clothes that weren't all that bad (but they were far from perfect), and a salt glazed mug. We signed a piece of paper that said we'd loose our last paycheck if the clothes weren't turned in. The same piece of paper said that if we broke/lost our salt glazed mug, too bad, we'd have to buy a replacement. It took me a week to leave that mug sitting where some sweaty, stinking, sticky fingered tourist could pinch it. I wish I'd have tied it to me. I'm told that this is why the interpreters at Plimoth don't leave their knives around - they disappear. Anybody from Plimoth want to comment? On the few occasions I've worked at a Ren Faire (long ago, but not so far away), I've tied my belongings to me so I'd keep them. I've played SCA for almost 15 years, and rarely let my mug get out of reach, even though I don't tie it to me. The only time something was stolen from me at an SCA event, it was stolen by a mundane teenager. Historic veracity is important. Providing the mundane public with souveniers of their trip to a site or faire is not in my job contract. 2c Mary Denise Smith ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 3 Oct 1996 08:23:07 -0700 From: Margo Anderson Subject: Re: Sources and misconceptions Frances Grimble wrote: For example, I'm not interested in whether other people wearing >colored satin ballgowns are the right "real life" age and marital >status for them. Reenactment isn't real life, what they wear is none >of my business, and I would not want to spoil their enjoyment by >criticizing them. Perhaps you didn't read my message carefully enough. The event I was referring to was not a reenactment, but a theatrical event, and the young ladies in question (whose true ages and marital status I am unaware of) were portraying young girls, and therefore incorrectly dressed. I believe an event which charges customers to attend, and bills itself as a historically accurate portrayal of a time period, has not only the right, but the duty, to maintain standards of accurate costume. Lacking the budget for a full time scholar of costume, these standards are maintained and constantly raised by dedicated amatuers. I further believe that the young ladies in question are intelligent and interested enough to be motivated to change their costumes when they are informed that they are incorrect. The way to inform them is not to barge up to them and proclaim at the top of your voice that "that's not period!!!" but by example, through workshops, and by providing the guidelines you disdain. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 3 Oct 1996 09:34:16 -0700 From: Heather Rose Jones Subject: Re: tipping fluid substitute On Thu, 3 Oct 1996, Johanna R. Forte wrote: > HELP!!! We are in the middle of constructing a 1775 corset and have run > out of tipping fluid (paint like liquid which seals the cut ends). Does > anyone have any suggestions for a substitute? I do not have time to > order any more until after the show is over. > Thanks in advance!! Call up your local hardware store (preferably a big one) and ask if they carry "tool dip" (a latex compound for adding a non-slip and insulated surface to metal tool handles). It may very well be the same stuff as your tipping fluid -- it should certainly work. Heather Rose Jones ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 3 Oct 1996 09:44:24 -0700 From: Heather Rose Jones Subject: Re: Re Pincushions On Thu, 3 Oct 1996 acacia@GIL.COM.AU wrote: > I would like to add to the discussion that I have seen one 15 century > painting done in the style of Bruger (sp?) which show two peasants - a male > and female, outdoors and each had like a leather sash tied to their waist > (one side was thick at least 6" or more) going to thinner on the other side. > Buttoned to this leather sash (the buttons are very obvious) are a comb, > sissors and other items dangleing off the sash - it is quite unusual and I > have not seen another like it. > > I am trying to find the picture in my library so that I can give you the > reference - does anyone else know the painting I am talking about? I don't know about that one particularly, but in some sketches I made (back in '81) at the Victoria and Albert museum, there are some from an early 16th century tapestry of a pastoral scene that has something very similar. The belt-like object that they're hanging from isn't very detailed in my sketch (it bears a startling resemblence to a modern fanny-pack in some ways -- but I'm not sure that it was a container rather than a belt). At any rate, it has the bottons mentioned above and a number of objects hanging off the buttons by small loops of string or ribbon: a double-sided comb, a small, cylindrical leather box, knife (no sheath), a pair of X-scissors, a rosary with cross, a six-holed fipple flute (i.e., penny-whistle type). Heather Rose Jones ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 3 Oct 1996 13:17:55 -0400 From: Gretchen Buggeln Subject: New Dissertation Fellowship Winterthur Museum announces the new Lois F. McNeil Dissertation Fellowship for doctoral candidates engaged in research in American decorative arts/material culture. We will award either one nine-month ($11,500) or two semester-length ($5,500 each) fellowships. An additional $1,000 is available to the recipient(s) for travel and research expenses. We expect the fellow(s) to be in residence at Winterthur and to use the term of the fellowship researching in our library and museum collections. Winterthur houses a library of half a million imprints, manuscripts, visual materials, and printed ephemera that support research in the seventeenth through the early twentieth centuries. The museum collections include 89,000 domestic artifacts and art objects made or used in America prior to 1840. Research topics might include: history of the family, domestic life, childhood, consumerism, Shaker history, decorative arts, pre-industrial crafts, business history, the history of travel and tourism, and popular memory. Winterthur houses a lively scholarly community of staff, graduate students, and researchers and has strong ties to the University of Delaware. The Lois F. McNeil Dissertation Fellow(s) will be expected to participate in academic activities at Winterthur and to make a contribution to the community in the form of participation in seminars and attendance at lectures and colloquia. Housing is available on the grounds. Applicants must have completed coursework, passed qualifying exams, fulfilled language requirements, and have an approved prospectus. Application deadline is February 1, 1997. For an application packet, please write: Gretchen Buggeln Office of Advanced Studies Winterthur Museum Winterthur DE 19735 (302) 888-4640 email=gtbug@udel.edu ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 3 Oct 1996 12:37:13 -0500 From: Sheryl Nance-Durst Subject: Things dangling from belts >On the few occasions I've worked at a Ren Faire (long ago, but not so far >away), I've tied my belongings to me so I'd keep them. > >Historic veracity is important. Providing the mundane public with souveniers >of their trip to a site or faire is not in my job contract. You bet! I work regularly at 2 RenFests in the Midwest & that is definitely one reason we keep things on our belts! The street characters don't have anywhere to store their mugs & things and it would mean their jobs if they were caught drinking out of paper cups or eating out of the paper bowls they get from the food stands. They also rotate sections every few hours & it is much more convenient to carry things on your belt than to carry them in a basket. Also the patrons sometimes walk up & start poking around in your basket if you have one. (It happened to me more than once.) Bad news if you keep modern things like your watch covered up in there! Admittedly, it does go farther than that. Many people like the look of dangling items & the sound they make as they clink together, so they pile more & more things on their belts. We also tend to string our employee medallions on thongs & wear them on our belts as a sign of how many years we've worked at the Fair. But most of us realize that it's not period, and mostly it's just mugs, bowls, pouches & knives hanging around. Sheryl J. Nance-Durst ...one of the secret masters of Kansas City MO Public Library the world: a librarian. They p_sheryl@kcpl.lib.mo.us control information. Don't ever p**s one off. - Spider Robinson, _The Callahan Touch_ (Opinions expressed in this message do not reflect the viewpoint of the Kansas City MO Public Library.) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 3 Oct 1996 10:53:24 -0700 From: Alice Morgan Subject: Re: "Costume Design for Dummies" Sheryl, Thank you for the web page pointer. I'm also looking for some good pattern drafting software. members of the list, >From the web page, the package "Symmetry" from Wild Ginger looks interesting. http://www.wild-ginger.com/wginger/homepage.htm I'd want to look into it for a while longer, but would there be enough interest on the list that we (various people on the list) could try to buy 5 or more of either "custom pattern" or "complete package" and get the package discount ($100 to $200 off). Custom pattern is listed at $495 US single, $395 US for five or more Complete package is listed at $795 US single, $595 US for five or more Its a lot of money I realize, especially with end of year holiday expenses coming up, but maybe we can look at as a gift to ourselves ;-) It looks like the main difference between the custom and the complete package is the ability to do grading to multiple sizes. I'm personally more interested in the custom, but can see the usefullness of the grading package down the line. Is there other people interested in this on the list? Alice Sheryl Nance-Durst said something close to this: [snip] > > There are a number of software packages designed for the home sewer that > might work. Check out http://www.hk.super.net/~rlowe/sew.html > It's a page listing most of these packages with comments on them & links > to places where you can download free demos of them. If you are specifically > looking for something designed for the theatre, then I only know of one > software package. It's called "B Famous on Stage". The web page for it is > http://www.newstuff.com/ > I haven't used any of them myself, but I imagine that at least one of these > programs would be useful to you. From ???@??? Mon Oct 07 13:16:53 1996 Received: from brownvm.brown.edu by mail.math.TU-Berlin.DE with SMTP id AA05619 (5.67b8/IDA-1.5 for ); Fri, 4 Oct 1996 05:06:57 +0100 Message-Id: <199610040406.AA05619@mail.math.TU-Berlin.DE> Received: from BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU by BROWNVM.brown.edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with BSMTP id 5265; Fri, 04 Oct 96 00:02:34 EDT Received: from BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU (NJE origin LISTSERV@BROWNVM) by BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 6727; Fri, 4 Oct 1996 00:02:27 -0400 Date: Fri, 4 Oct 1996 00:01:31 -0400 Reply-To: Historic Costume List Sender: Historic Costume List From: Automatic digest processor Subject: H-COSTUME Digest - 2 Oct 1996 to 3 Oct 1996 To: Recipients of H-COSTUME digests [snip] -- Alice Morgan Spotted Dog Systems ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 3 Oct 1996 14:14:01 -0400 From: Dale Loberger Subject: Re: sources & misconceptions Dear All: Where do I start???!!! For whatever reason, these are my pet peeves (circa 1750 - 1820 or so): 1. Too many site directors down South think that All Slave Women Wore Shifts and that s all. Frankly, I refuse to tell anyone to re-enact in their underwear, besides the fact that this has absolutely no historical basis. There are so many things wrong with this assumption I could write a book. Firstly, the clothing your slaves wore was a direct reflection upon you as an owner. Your moral duty was to clothe and to provide for your household, and this _included_ your slaves. If they went about naked then you were seen as too stupid to protect your investment, at the very least, and cruel and morally deficient, at worst. Plenty of runaway slave ads describe the colorful and plentiful clothing of slaves, quite probably often handed down from the family. Later, into the 1820 s and 1830 s, many households cut back to only two outfits a year for each slave; one particularly awful example comes to mind in Fanny Kemble s *Journal of a Residence on a Georgia Plantation*, where each one of over 700 slaves received so many yards of "red flannel" a year for making clothing, and that was it. (For those of you who haven t visited the Georgia coast in July, I assure you that flannel is not a fabric most of us have in our wardrobes at that time of year.) Nonetheless, even her cheap and uncaring husband, Pierce Butler, wouldn t haven t even considered neglecting to provide clothing for his slaves. For many a plantation wife, seeing to the clothing and outfitting of slaves, making gowns for women in confinement and their little babies, constituted a very large investment of her time. So many misconceptions on this whole slave/family thing. It will be decades before the picture is clear. Since Carol in her original post asked that we suggest - "solutions, citations of better resources, etc."--- In general, I recommend that female house servants wear simple, unadorned cotton or linen dresses for the period, clean aprons and either caps, biggins, or head wraps (wound around the head and tucked under, not knotted in front in the minstrel-show misconception/Aunt Jemima head scarf) of either white linen or a two-color cotton plaid or for head wraps, a tiny subtle print. Shortgowns that could have been made of old dress material from the family and wool twill petticoats for kitchen help, with the same apron and headgear advice as above. Kitchen help can go barefoot, but house servants usually should not. (Male house servants: I haven t researched these much at all but I understand those at Mt. Vernon and Carter s Grove Plantation have so I would contact & consult with them.) Slaves who work outdoors in the garden or on the grounds, or who do living history in the cabins or actually work in the fields of course wear coarser attire. Unbleached "brown" linen or tow cloth shirts and hand-me-down or rough-looking (out of style, much-worn) breeches or trousers, jackets or waistcoats and worn, torn, stained and dirty work frocks for this period (see opening line). No stockings, or very worn ones and plain black rough-out leather shoes, if any. Colorful neckerchiefs (for the period, meaning checks or period plaids or bright solid colors). Shifts for the females and children can certainly be not so white as the family s, but my understanding is that only the most miserly of masters would have given servants unbleached tow or linen for body linen in this period. Later, I think this was done, however (after 1820), especially for field hands. 2. Again, seen all the time down here in the south, the petticoat and chemise outfit. Yes, there are eyewitness accounts that some of the backcountry women were "naked" most probably meaning their body linen wasn t covered, for whatever reason, heat, poverty, ignorance, laziness, whatever but too many of us here in the south try to make the excuse to get out of wearing the proper attire because of the heat, and try to rationalize that that s what _all_ of our ancestors did, too. Show me some documentation on this, and we ll talk about it. Discomfort is no excuse for laziness on our part. For Rev War, try a simple round gown in lightweight linen or plain cotton chintz or callicoe. Plenty of portraits survive of young girls and women wearing very simple, lightweight one-piece gowns with low necks, chemise ruffles showing, and elbow-length sleeves after 1780. BTW, dresses in general are cooler than two-piece outfits (meaning shortgown or jacket and petticoats). For the period 1790 - 1820, there are plenty of comfortable options such as the very simple, short-sleeved empire drawstring-waisted gowns of lightweight cottons that were worn, and you can leave off your neckerchief or chemisette and leave your neckline bare. For older women, lightweight cotton empire or round gowns with elbow-length sleeves and a moderately low neckline with a sheer kerchief are certainly cooler (and more interesting) than linen shortgowns and petticoats. You do have options!!!! New and different patterns are becoming more available for this period; check Rocking Horse Farm, Period Impressions, and James Burnley s catalog for ideas. (I also have quite a few, many drafted from original garments; if you re having a hard time finding something you want, feel free to e-mail me.) 3. The Bodice That Never Existed: commonly sold as a "French" bodice. This unboned, lined, lace-up the front thing that women wear, often very loose, as in droopy and unfitted. Where did it come from? I want to know. When I see one I have this grouchy impulse to go up and say something like: "Oh, are you wearing jumps? Oh, but it isn t boned --at all, I see. And the shoulder straps are so wide! What _is_ it?" It s like a cross between a shortgown and jumps, I think. Droopy and stupid-looking. No woman ever would have worn such a useless garment. Let s all do our part to TRASH this thing! 4. Wearing highly visible bras under chemises, especially with pet peeves #2 and #3. AAAGGGHHHH!! 5. Caps, chemises, men s shirts, etc., made of modern unbleached muslin. Why do people insist on this fabric, and why do big-time dealers who here shall go un-named insist on continuing the myth by carrying it??? Oh, that s right, because it s cheap. Meow!!! 6. And the most important: People who are mean enough to point out any of this in public to anyone making any of the above mistakes. Discretion is the better part of valor. Toujours, la politesse. Just because I am bold enough to blab all this to you guys as part of this discussion does not mean I am a rude and uncaring cad. I find that getting to know the offender often presents multiple opportunities for doing things like recommending good resource material to read, invitations to lunch and a library visit, etc., in the hope that they will discover a better outfit all by themselves. When people know what I do they often ask me right out to critique a costume and still I have a very hard time telling people directly that what they are wearing is trash. I say things like, "That s a very interesting color." "You did a good job setting in the sleeves on that dress." "It isn t often, I thought, that a person of what was then considered mature age actually wore pink. You must portray a very unique character." One of the advantages of this medium is that I can roar like a lion when in person I m really a little fish. Thanks to all of you for letting me have my say! ;-) Susannah Eanes, Mantua Maker and Fine Tailoring (Susan Bridges Loberger, for Susannah s Heirloom, Ltd.) "We are only the trustees for those who come after us." -William Morris ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 3 Oct 1996 12:18:06 -0700 From: The Polsons Subject: ecru vs. white, misconceptions, & computer program LuAnn said: >c) Make underthings out of cream/ecru cotton which looks nice, but feels >farby. Why is this "farby?" Wouldn't unbleached muslin, while not as "upper crust" as pure white cotton, be just as period? Huh... (scratches head)... Then Cordelia said: >Willow, if you come to my house next Wednesday night, you can look at my copy. I'll try! Depends on what my body's doing THIS week... 8-| Then Fran said: >About misconceptions: In my opinion misconceptions are often spread by >reenactment/living history costuming guidelines. Some guidelines >consciously focus on helping people who need a costume to participate, >to put something more or less passable together quickly and >inexpensively. But then the look becomes standardized; like the >chemise-off-the-shoulder busting-out-of-the-bodice Renaissance Fair >wench. ARGH! Yes, yes, yes, you are so right! Another example is the T-tunic - I wish these things would die. These things are WAY too common in "reenactment" groups and ugly as well (when made with modern materials, anyway). The fabric chosen is usually too stiff so they look like they're made out of cardboard, they're some godawful color or even in a PRINT, and then they're "dressed up" with some kind of nasty OOP trim... 8-p Easy and cheap to make, but many people never get beyond that, or even try to find out what IS period for their persona! It's too easy to "just wear what everyone else is wearing" instead of doing the work to research what IS the right thing... And the fact that T-tunics, "loose women's" bodices at the Ren Faire, and the universal hat/head covering thing is perpetuated by the very people who are claiming to be running a group devoted to history drives me up the wall (can you tell? ;>). THEN Sharon said... >Sometime back I heard a >rumour that there was an IBM program out there that could be used for >designing costume. You could enter a person's mearsurements into the >program, it would sketch the figure of these measurements for you, and then >you could either choose basic garments from the program, or design your own >to fit this figure. Sounds like it MIGHT be "Fittingly Sew" by Bartley Software. I have a sample disk, and was very impressed with it. Contact them at 72 Robertson Rd., Box 26122, Nepean, Ontario, Canada K2H 9R6. More on misconceptions from various listies... >>A lady ALWAYS wore something on her head myth: ...we could have been more >>comfortable and MORE AUTHENTIC just to put our hair up and leave it alone. > >This myth is only partially bunk. Daycaps did go out of fashion by the 1860's, >but they still wore a bonnet or hat when out of doors. Look at any outdoor >photo, engraving or any other image from the period and women are wearing a hat >or a bonnet. Going bare headed *in public* is a late 20th century phenomena. Actually, I've seen lots of photos of women in the gold rush, especially laboring women, who just have their hair up in a bun. Guess it depends on why they're outdoors and what part of the country you're from... Lots of Victorian era middle-class women in family portraits at the homestead with no hats too... Belt-hanging thingies... >The knife and money pouch, on the other hand, I've seen lots of >pictures of, though mostly of the peasant classes (see the Brueghal >drawings of peasants in the marketplace--they almost all have pouches >and knives hanging from their belts). I've seen all classes of people in "books of days" paintings wearing a belt pouch and knife. >I don't know where women carry >their spoons, but again, Brueghal shows some men carrying them stuck >into their hats. I'm actually at a loss with the whole spoon thing to begin with... I've never seen them carried about as knives were. Seems like a rude host that would not include a spoon when serving a meal to someone, making you bring your own! 8-) Just my $1.95 (inflation). 8-) ********************************************** Willow Polson....willow@recreating-history.com Recreating History magazine ..."Historic Crafts, Cooking, and Clothing"... ----> http://www.recreating-history.com <----- Call us toll free! 1-(888) REENACT (733-6228) ********************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 3 Oct 1996 11:23:27 -0700 From: Frances Grimble Subject: Re: Sources and misconceptions > Lacking the budget > for a full time scholar of costume, these standards are maintained and > constantly raised by dedicated amatuers. >From my observation, this is what turns into group politics. Certain people in the group decide they are costume authorities. That somehow they are more qualified than others to do research from sources available to all, and to create and impose guidelines on the others. Whether they can manage to do this often depends on factors that have little to do with their costume expertise. Personally, I feel people should research, learn, think, and make decisions for themselves. That's much more educational than letting someone else think for them. It's also healthier for both the individual and the group. Fran Grimble ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 3 Oct 1996 17:19:30 -0400 From: Marsha Hamilton Subject: Tying Objects to Oneself >The only time something was stolen from me at an SCA event, it was stolen >by a >mundane teenager. I've never had anything lifted but friends of mine have--also by mundane teens. I'm very impressed by the honesty of reenactors. Everything is so easy to pilfer, sitting out in tents or on the ground. It's nice to do events with people you may not know but you can trust to leave your kit alone. On a different topic. I went to the Muster at Plimoth a few weekends ago. I slept in the Soule house on a wooden platform bed with a straw tick. Not bad really. Two ten year old girls (one of them mine) slept on ticks on the floor. We used candles and tin lanterns but it was too hot for a fire. You could see the ocean. Beautiful! The houses are generally one room with some furniture. Some have lofts. Each lot is enclosed by a small fence that allows gardening in the back. Plimoth doesn't allow stray reenactors. The men doing the muster had been invited from various groups to represent specific people. They spent a day "mustering" (drilling, firing muskets...) The visiting women, children, and other men dressed in costume after the public left at 5:00 pm. It was incredible to walk through an entire village with animals and gardens where EVERYONE is costumed. (Alright, one or two people weren't but the illusion was almost complete.) There was a dance and I laughed so much I woke up hoarse the next day. Despite the best of teachers, we crashed into each other and went the wrong directions. It was wonderful. My daughter will treasure that experience forever. This really is a great group of people. Marsha ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 3 Oct 1996 14:25:09 -0700 From: "Carol E. Newby" Subject: Re: Costume Design Software. On Thu, 3 Oct 1996, EGSMITH@OPPD.GOV(Earley G. Smith) wrote: > You can use a software program called "Fittingly Sew" that is put out by > Bartley Software. It is a bit pricey, but is a very good program. I have > been able to design some very exquisite early 19th century (War of 1812) > period clothing with it. You can contact them by e-mail at > "72133.3102@compuserve.com." I agree it is a wonderful program - unfortuneately the company is no longer selling it. I purchased a similar program called Pattern Maker that I am pleased with so far, though I'm still getting familiar with it and haven't actually printed a pattern yet. They have a web site at: http://www.eskimo.com/~pmaker/ Carol ~~~*~~~*~~~*~~~*~~~*~~~*~~~*~~~*~~~*~~~*~~~*~~~*~~~*~~~*~~~*~~~ Carol E. Newby ladybug@falkor.neverending.webnexus.com http://falkor.neverending.webnexus.com/~ladybug "Unless you try to do something beyond what you have already mastered, you will never grow." ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 3 Oct 1996 17:38:10 EST From: Carol Kocian Subject: Sources & Misconceptions The most popular time periods to reenact are the ones with the most myths! Margo Anderson wrote, > Here's one that come from the Ren Faire circuit: : everyone in 16th > century England wore a tankard or goblet hanging on their belt. In American Rev War reenacting, too there are a lot of things that are worn hanging off the belt. It's a matter of sorting out what should be dangling and what should not. Soldier reenactors sometimes tie their tin cups to themselves. The fact is, canteens were issued to soldiers, and tin cups were not. Would a soldier have brought along his own tin cup? Or did he only have a canteen, and drink straight from that? Campfollower reenactors of the same era sometimes wear a knife tucked into a leather belt. But women in this time period did not wear leather belts! On the other hand, ladies had chatellaines. It the 18thC, these were a decorative clip (which hooked onto the waistband of the petticoat) with several chains hanging down. The ends of the chains held sewing supplies (scissors, pincushion, needle case, tape measure, etc) and keys. A simpler version would be a piece of tape (ribbon) folded in the middle, with the fold tucked into the waistband and scissors and a pinball (pincushion) hanging from either end. 18thC women wore pockets, which held other items. Glenna Jo Christen wrote, > Once a woman married, or perhaps after she "passed the Rubicon of > 30 years" (I love that line from one of my etiquette books), she > would start choosing darker, or more subdued colors for her formal > wear. I attended a ball where there were several over-30 women in very elegant, dark colored ballgowns. They looked wonderful! My favorite line about dressing in younger clothes is "mutton dressed like lamb". Of course this can work well if it fits with a role that is being played, but when unintentional the results aren't as attractive. Today there are still examples of dressing for one's age. Diana, former wife of Prince Charles, was recently photographed in a halter style dress. The older women around her wore more conservative cuts. Here's another one from the 18th century. Some campfollower reenactors wear "bodices", sleeveless lace-up vest-like tops over their shifts. The "English bodice" looked to me like someone's attempt to make stays, with no knowledge that the garment is boned. It frequently appears in thin fabric that offers no support or shaping to the body. Imagine my surprise when Suzanne Gousse found a similar garment to be appropriate to French women living in North America in the mid-18thC! In this case, though, the Corset (that's the name of the garment) has one piece of boning on each of both edges of the center front opening. The entire garment is also stiffened with paper. So it's not the flimsy bodice that some people are wearing, but it does look similar at first glance. -Carol Kocian ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 3 Oct 1996 19:06:06 -0300 From: Margaret Rae Carignan Subject: Re: Patterns and medieval Jewish > Maybe in England, but not in Italy. Drawstring necks were done in the > Renaissance there - look at Lynne Lawner's "Lives of the Courtesans" for > several examples. There's a particularly good one on page 102 of Palma > Vecchio's "Flora" from the 16th century - this chemise is obviously > drawn shut since it is partially opened and the blue ribbon drawstring > is blatently visable. There's another example on page 112 from Raphael, > although it's less obvious there. And if your copy has the dust > jacket, the front cover painting is also a drawstring chemise (again > illustrated well), again by Vecchio. > Take another look at that Vecchio painting. Yess, the neckline is gathered, and it does close with ribbon ties, but I'll bet the farm it's NOT a drawstring. Correct me if I'm wrong, but a drawstring implies an arrangement whereby the neckline (or cuff, or whatever) can be adjusted by pulling on the string or ribbon. That is not what I believe is happening here. These necklines have the gathers (or often tiny cartridge pleats) sewn into place permanently. The ribbons merely allow the neckline to open, not to change shape. I have seen all of the paintings you have refered to, and would love to sit with you, with them before our eyes, and argue this point. Of course, this is when someone will calmly slide conclusive proof of my absolute wrongness before my eyes - that's prbably why I don't own a farm... Francesca ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 3 Oct 1996 19:27:18 -0300 From: Margaret Rae Carignan Subject: Re: tipping fluid substitute On Thu, 3 Oct 1996, Johanna R. Forte wrote: > HELP!!! We are in the middle of constructing a 1775 corset and have run > out of tipping fluid (paint like liquid which seals the cut ends). Does > anyone have any suggestions for a substitute? I do not have time to > order any more until after the show is over. > Thanks in advance!! > Hardware stores (here in Canada, anyway) carry stuff that is used to dip tool handles to plastic coat them. It comes in white and colours, and I found it very good. The main problem with it is that it gets quite thick if left open too long. It's about half as expensive as tipping fluid, too! Meg ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 3 Oct 1996 15:40:04 -0700 From: Glenna Jo & Bill Christen Subject: Re: sources & misconceptions-ball dresses This post belongs to the list, not to me as an individual since I don't do tourney era events. American Civil War era dresses generally clear the ground by 1"-4" and we still wick up the mud and dirt. :-( Glenna Jo Christen gwjchris@rust.net ches@io.com wrote: What about the myth of how much fabric should drag the ground in each period and what it means? Also, I know that most of us want to be as realistic as possible out at events but what would you all say is the safest distance from the ground to the bottom of the hemline so that you do not soil the garment too much? That is, to still remain looking realisticly period at a mud feast tourny. ..o0*0o.. Lady Chiara Ciao @}\ Known World Academy of the Rapier: Ches @}----`--,-- http://www.io.com/~ches/rapier.html @}/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 3 Oct 1996 17:11:07 -0700 From: "SNORTON.US.ORACLE.COM" Subject: Rocking Horse Farm Does anyone have an address or phone number for the Rocking Horse Farm pattern company? Do they have a web site? Thanks for any help. Sally Norton snorton@us.oracle.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 3 Oct 1996 17:38:57 -0700 From: karen pedersen Subject: Norwegian 'bunader' I am trying to find sources of embroidery patterns for Norwegian buands. = This is the costume that distinguishes each province. For a pictoral = source I have found the book by Kjersti Skavhaug 'Norwegian Bunads' to = be very informative. There are kits that supply all the authentic = materials and the pattern is stamped on the woolen fabric. If I was = interested in an adult garment it would be worth the expense and 300 = hours of embroidery..... but I am more interested in the technique than = an adult garment. I am particularily looking for the style of = embriodery from Hallingdal, Gol or Hemsedal. =20 There is very little information available on the NET ... and short of = joining a Scandinavian dance group and pledge myself to an = apprenticeship .... I was wondering if anyone has an idea where I can = find some American sources.=20 thanks for the info ....=20 Karen ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 3 Oct 1996 18:04:13 -0700 From: Laura Nunemaker Subject: Re: Costume Design Software. If Fittingly Sew is no longer being sold, I where it stands as far as copyrights go. I mention this because I have a copy for the Macintosh and if I can share without getting into trouble, I will. ********************************************** Observation If I don't drive around the park, I'm pretty sure to make my mark. If I'm in bed each night by ten, I may get back my looks again. If I abstain from fun and such, I'll probably amount to much; But I shall stay the way I am, Because I do not give a damn. Dorothy Parker (Goddess) Laura Nunemaker drkangel@sirius.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 4 Oct 1996 01:18:04 UT From: Susan Carter Subject: white linen Please keep in mind that almost all of the "white" linen we can buy today is not just it's own natural white - it's "optic" white which means that it's been dyed a very artificial white that no self-respecting linen, or cotton for that matter, would ever be on it's own. This is just about guaranteed to look odd with any of the natural off-white colors. If anyone knows where to get non-optic white linen or for that matter, how to undye the optic stuff, I'd love to hear about it. Of course, there's always the lawn and the lye and the sun. . . Good thread, keep it going, the only way to fight these sneaky little mistakes/misconceptions is to keep fighting them - they seem to have a life all their own. The myth police have a big job. Su _ sucarter@msn.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 3 Oct 1996 19:31:38 -0700 From: Julie Adams Subject: Re: sources & misconceptions >On Wed, 2 Oct 1996, Julie Adams wrote: > >> In the first 1/2 of the 16th century you see lots of women with long narrow >> sashes or cords or narrow belts (about 1/2"). at the end, hanging down >> about the knee level is often a purse, keys, and and eating knife >> (single-bladed, no quillions). This style phases out about 1540s for upper >> class women though. >> OOOPs! I accidentally edited out "Germany" after the 16th cent. I think if you look you will find quite a few in Central Europe during that period. Particularly 1490 to about 1530. The style pretty much dissappears after about 1550. Julie Adams ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 3 Oct 1996 23:22:52 -0400 From: Sheridan Alder & David Webb Subject: Re: sources & misconceptions I just have to express my public appreciation for Susan Bridges Loberger's entertaining and interesting pet peeves, as well as for her call for courtesy. A few of my own comments... >Where do I start???!!! For whatever reason, these are my pet peeves >(circa 1750 - 1820 or so): > >1. Too many site directors down South think that All Slave Women Wore >Shifts and that s all. > Frankly, I refuse to tell anyone to re-enact in their underwear, >besides the fact that this has absolutely no historical basis. Yeah, the old chemise and petticoat look is an epidemic at War of 1812 events. Granted, I've come across several examples documenting working class women stripping down to chemise, petticoat and stays during harvesting and laundry, but it was considered vulgar even then. Besides, most of the adherents of this look don't wear stays. >For many a >plantation wife, seeing to the clothing and outfitting of slaves, making >gowns for women in confinement and their little babies, constituted a >very large investment of her time. So many misconceptions on this whole >slave/family thing. Just have to add that this sort of "private charity" seems to be fairly common in Britain throughout the nineteenth century. Putting together and maintaining a "box" of linen consisting of clothing for both mother and infant, for the poor of the parish would be considerable a worthy occupation for genteel ladies who were so inclined. I've recently heard (and I'm hoping to hear more) that this custom was maintained in the Niaraga-on-the-Lake are well into the twentieth century! In general, I recommend that female house servants wear simple, >unadorned cotton or linen dresses for the period, clean aprons and >either caps, biggins, or head wraps (wound around the head and tucked >under, not knotted in front in the minstrel-show misconception/Aunt >Jemima head scarf) of either white linen or a two-color cotton plaid or >for head wraps, a tiny subtle print. Shortgowns that could have been >made of old dress material from the family and wool twill petticoats for >kitchen help, with the same apron and headgear advice as above. My pet peeve for soldier's wives in 1812 - all the thin, $2.99-a-metre cotton or cotton and poly get-ups. If you were incredibly poor, and knew that this garment would have to last a couple of years, wouldn't you choose a stout calico or linen fabric or garment to re-make? I'd love to see garments with more body. I've got a 1798 estimate of how often the poor would have to replace various articles of clothing. If anyone if interested I'll try to dig it up. A great source is "Paintings of the British Social Scene". Sorry, I'm not very well-prepared tonight, I can't find more information. Lots of examples of 18th-early 19th c. genre paintings (yes, I know, I know, you have to be careful) many of which indicate the texture and weight of the garments depicted, at least to my imaginative eye! On the other hand, I think it would be great to have a "Regency Rambling Rose" type at an event - a young and nubile women who was given the old gown of a former genteel employer and thinks she's hot damn, but has failed to notice how faded and shabby it's becoming, and doesn't have the cop-on to repair it! And wouldn't you fellas enjoy such a character? >Colorful neckerchiefs (for the period, meaning checks or period >plaids or bright solid colors). My pet peeve regarding neckerchiefs - ones that are just cut from just any ol' piece of floral print fabric, usually matching the petticoat! My impression (which may, of course, be wrong) is that they were often specially woven, in order to get that "checked" border pattern. It's interesting - the upper classes seemed to REALLY approve of plain white kerchiefs as being eminently respectable for working class females - perhaps they were perceived as being more serious and modest that a flaunting scarlet silk kerchief! Regarding neckerchiefs - I'm got to put a plug in for Veronica Murphy's "Tie-dyed Textiles of India". Damn! where did my photocopy of the title page go? Anyways, she documents the silk Indian bandanna through the eighteenth century into the twentieth and concludes that it was a very popular working-class accessory for both men and women. (Yes, they were imported into the U.S.) She offers a far variety of 18th c. genre art which depicts the bandanna, around women's shoulders, knotted around the neck for country yokels, etc. and shows examples of similar traditional patterns, including the "Jemmy Belcher". Now I have to do is slowly and painfully tie-dye (knotting until my fingers bleed) to get the typical "bird's-eye" pattern. Oh well! winters in Canada are long and boring... If you want to add variety to your impresssion, get this book on inter- library loan. >3. The Bodice That Never Existed: commonly sold as a "French" bodice. > This unboned, lined, lace-up the front thing that women wear, often >very loose, as in droopy and unfitted. Where did it come from? I want >to know...Let s all do our part to TRASH this thing! Yes! Death to the French (bodice)! Even if someone comes up with docu- mentation for this item, it's become a tedious cliche at events. >4. Wearing highly visible bras under chemises, especially with pet >peeves #2 and #3. AAAGGGHHHH!! What's worse - when people don't wear a chemise at all and you can count most of their vertebrae if their upper garment has a back opening. I also hate it when someone has on a super gown, and decides to drag around barefoot, with hair straggling down their back. I've come across several references of visitors to Scotland during the Regency who were appalled by women with no caps, kerchiefs, stockings or shoes. It appears even the poor in Britain could boast of these. I also have to add that I've come across two references stating that a women of the upper classes would virtually be "swarmed" by the populace if she dared brave the public streets without a bonnet. Finally, I'm sick of the Kinsale cloak! I've been research genre art for the last couple of years, and I've never found any examples of a woman of the labouring classes wearing one. However there are many examples of cloaks - from mid-calf to hip-length though. Much less romantic...I must admit I have a secret fantasy of myself in a Kinsale cloak, wind whipping its folds as I brood in the heather, unaware that Alan Rickman (or should it be Gary Oldman this time?) is striding towards me to sweep me up... enough of this! I know about the museum examples, but I doubt if c. 1812 soldier's wives wore cloaks sweeping the ground. To be brutally realistic, as the British retreated through Upper Canada, when you retired to pee in the bushes, it'd be damn difficult to avoid...I bet there was a good reason why Wolfe fussed about the cleanliness of latrines earlier, too! I feel dirty after using the portapotties! even. My two pence worth - please be gentle with me, my dog died recently. Sheridan Alder ------------------------------------------------------------ Name : Sheridan Alder & David Webb Company : Sheridan Alder & David Webb Address : 145 Dalhousie Avenue City : St. Catharines, ON, Canada, L2N 4X6 Home Number: (905) 935-2729 ------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 3 Oct 1996 23:55:44 -0400 From: Al De Santis Subject: Re: tipping fluid substitute At 08:47 AM 10/3/96 -0400, you wrote: >HELP!!! We are in the middle of constructing a 1775 corset and have run >out of tipping fluid (paint like liquid which seals the cut ends). Does >anyone have any suggestions for a substitute? I do not have time to >order any more until after the show is over. >Thanks in advance!! I have used white nail polish, especially some that has thickened with age. Alexa Fletcher Westfield Benevolent Society ------------------------------ End of H-COSTUME Digest - 2 Oct 1996 to 3 Oct 1996 ************************************************** From ???@??? Mon Oct 07 13:16:56 1996 Received: from brownvm.brown.edu by mail.math.TU-Berlin.DE with SMTP id AA11657 (5.67b8/IDA-1.5 for ); Sat, 5 Oct 1996 05:06:47 +0100 Message-Id: <199610050406.AA11657@mail.math.TU-Berlin.DE> Received: from BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU by BROWNVM.brown.edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with BSMTP id 4506; Sat, 05 Oct 96 00:01:45 EDT Received: from BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU (NJE origin LISTSERV@BROWNVM) by BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 9960; Sat, 5 Oct 1996 00:01:39 -0400 Date: Sat, 5 Oct 1996 00:01:18 -0400 Reply-To: Historic Costume List Sender: Historic Costume List From: Automatic digest processor Subject: H-COSTUME Digest - 3 Oct 1996 to 4 Oct 1996 To: Recipients of H-COSTUME digests There are 28 messages totalling 1243 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. white linen (4) 2. sources & misconceptions-ball dresses 3. Cutlery (and flatware) 4. Pattern drafting systems 5. Corset busks 6. Pincushions (2) 7. Welcome to stagecraft 8. Dating a 3 or 4 tiered gathered skirt-Taos style? 9. Paintings as documentation (3) 10. Corset clasps 11. H-COSTUME Digest - 2 Oct 1996 to 3 Oct 1996 12. Help Resubsribing 13. Hair Oils 14. Sources & Miscon. - 18thC "bodice" 15. FWD>RE>H-COSTUME Digest - 2 16. FWD>RE>H-COSTUME Digest 17. help 18. Ready for the eighties... (2) 19. Flag Silk. 20. sources & misconceptions 21. Drafting a Pattern ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 4 Oct 1996 01:42:27 -0400 From: lukelep@NECA.COM Subject: Re: white linen Sue, >Please keep in mind that almost all of the "white" linen we can buy today is >not just it's own natural white - it's "optic" white which means that it's >been dyed a very artificial white that no self-respecting linen, or cotton for >that matter, would ever be on it's own. This is just about guaranteed to look >odd with any of the natural off-white colors. If anyone knows where to get >non-optic white linen or for that matter, how to undye the optic stuff, I'd >love to hear about it. I find that a good old tea dye does a lot of good towards toning down overly white linen. Lipton does quite well. BTW, thanks quite belatedly for sending on the lucetted cord by way of John, my apologies for being so slow to acknowledge it. Lisa ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 3 Oct 1996 01:22:28 PDT From: "Marlo W. Peck" Subject: Re: sources & misconceptions-ball dresses > What about the myth of how much fabric should drag the ground in each = period > and what it means? > > Also, I know that most of us want to be as realistic as possible out = at events > but what would you all say is the safest distance from the ground to = the > bottom of the hemline so that you do not soil the garment too much? Tha= t is, > to still remain looking realisticly period at a mud feast tourny. How much drags the ground depends on just what year it is and a whole lot= of other considerations like rank and how formal the outfit is. Just = give up on clean hems use _lots_ of scotch gard on the hems and then lots= of stain remover. Nothing looks worse than gowns that are too short. The ongoing gripe about "french" and "english" bodices seems to pervade = every historical re-enactment group. Even in the SCA where they are reas= onably correct for period they are seldom made fitted and boned properly.= Don't these ladies understand that the wench bodice is in no way attrac= tive to anybody if your breasts are sagging to your waist? Marlo W. Peck Knowne to the Society as Muriel deRedfearne ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 4 Oct 1996 10:07:00 BST From: Mrs C S Yeldham Subject: Cutlery (and flatware) Willow said: >I'm actually at a loss with the whole spoon thing to begin with... >I'venever seen them carried about as knives were. Seems like a rude host >thatwould not include a spoon when serving a meal to someone, making you >bringyour own! 8-) Knives were used for a multitude of purposes, not just eating, so would be needed easily available. Spoons don't seem to be carried about (except sometimes in hats) and were probably kept in pouches - the originals are quite small. I am now talking about England! The dates will be different, but the principle the same for the rest of Europe! In England, until 1660s, nobody provided cutlery or flatware (cutlery is knives, flatware, spoons and forks), you always provided your own - everyone carried their own eating irons around. This is not rudeness but different social mores. The idea of buying (or making) a canteen of cutlery (and flatware) didn't come in until the Restauration of the Monarchy and some french fashions came in (no, I don't know when the French developed the idea). This was slow to catch on until Louis XIV enacted the Revocation of the Edict of Nantes, and something like 50,000 Hugenots, of all social classes, emigrated to England and french habits became more common. Cutlery and flatware continue to be made by separate methods, people and even companies until the present day, in traditional workshops. I can see why it would be slow to catch on - you wouldn't know where they had been, how they had been cleaned, or who had eaten from them before. Your own set would only be used by yourself (loaned to close friends?) - much cleaner! On dresses trailing over the ground, certainly in the medieval/early modern period, you (generalisation warning) tend to see the women wearing the trailing outfits indoors. Women working outdoors either wear mid-calf skirts, or have kirtled up their skirts to mid-calf. Our behaviour has to match what we wear! On the question of theft, which is a problem over here too, is there nothing the organisers can do?, particularly if they are going to fine you if you lose something and don't allow you to behave inauthentically! What about a secure area out of the public's way where things can be left, or locked cupboards if things get really bad! Most events I've been to do have somewhere things can be left - especially valuable things like musical instruments. Caroline ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 4 Oct 1996 07:44:25 -0400 From: Dale Loberger Subject: Pattern drafting systems For those of you who are interested, Isabelle Lott supplies an AutoCAD add-on for pattern drafting. It is state-of-the-art. For a sample disk, contact PC-Pattern, at PatternWorks, 2530 W. Mulford Ct., SE, Grand Rapids, MI 49546 (616) 949-3429. It runs on IBM 486 or higher with 8 mg. RAM (if you already operate AutoCAD you don t have to upgrade your hardware usually to run PC-Pattern) There is a Mac version. I personally do not use this program although I did get the sample disk. One day .It is very impressive and does have a complete sloper library. ... I still plod along in a map-drafting package .sigh. Those out there who have not yet tried the wonders of computer drafting or digitizing a pattern and need an incentive, here s one: it is unbelievably simple to use those complicated graphed patterns a la Janet Arnold, etc. Simply digitize in the pattern at the proper scale (ex.: 1/10th" square = 1square inch) and all of a sudden you have incredible flexibility in changing the size of the bust, shoulder, back waist length, etc., all by moving the mouse. You can preview the finished pattern piece on the screen and check for scale, fit, etc., _before_ you print it out and save so much trouble (and measuring and guessing and erasing in the old method by hand). By overlaying a pattern piece in your file (such as a front bodice piece) that you know fits with the new one, you can compare how the new one may fit before you ever even cut a sample muslin. It s an incredible time-saver and after you get used to it, it really does open up new possibilities and allows you to try things you probably wouldn t if you hadn t had access to this technology. Now, what would really be neat would be the capability to fit the pieces together on the screen, such as those tricky curved 1840 s bodice seams, and view them in 3-D to check and see how the ease allowed will work after you make your size adjustments. I know you can do this with engineering drawings (such as pipe fittings) in AutoCAD; I don t know if PC-Pattern allows you to do this or not. Saundra, are you listening? I know, this sounds pretty dumb coming from an anachronism like me. Digitize the patterns so I can stitch the garments by hand. Go figure! But patternmaking is such an exacting task that as far as I am concerned, every little bit helps, from the math to selecting the proper line width and not worrying about if it will be legible. For me, this part is a science. The art comes later, when I put needle to cloth. Susannah Eanes, Mantua Maker and Fine Tailoring (Susan Bridges Loberger for Susannah s Heirloom, Ltd.) "We are only the trustees for those that come after us." William Morris ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 4 Oct 1996 07:46:06 -0400 From: Dale Loberger Subject: Corset busks Does anyone know where I can find smaller size steel corset clasps say in a 9" or 10" length? I have not been able to make the 1840 s corset I want because I can t find a clasp short enough for my 5 foot tall frame. I cannot deal with the longer lengths because they push down into my upper legs when I try to sit down. (Ouch!) I tried Greenberg & Hammer but they only carry 8" (too short) and 12" (too long) lengths. Amazon doesn t have anything shorter than 11". If anyone can help, please let me know! Thanks! Susannah Eanes, Mantua Maker and Fine Tailoring (Susan Bridges Loberger for Susannah s Heirloom, Ltd.) "We are only the trustees for those that come after us." William Morris ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 4 Oct 1996 07:58:44 EDT From: Eric Praetzel Subject: Re: white linen > Please keep in mind that almost all of the "white" linen we can buy today is > not just it's own natural white - it's "optic" white which means that it's > been dyed a very artificial white that no self-respecting linen, or cotton I believe that is a dye that has phosphates in it; or something that is white-flourescent. But I'm guessing based upon what I heard years ago. I'm curious about what bleech does exactly. I came across some water-dammaged dyed linen ($3/yd at War) and we've been playing the clean-it-up game. I washed 9 yards of it with one cut of bleech and it came out with the dye removed; but the water stains quite noticable. At least it is a lot softer and fuller. A friend washed 5 yards with a cup of bleech (both in a "full" load cycle with hot water) and it came out whiteish (while mine is yellowish) and _without_ the water stains (or reduced by a heck of a lot). So, should I cut it in half and wash it in bleech again; or just wash all 9 yards with another cup of bleech? Or ??? Is washing X quantity of fabric in one cup of bleech twice the same as washing X quantity in 2 cups of bleech? As for the strength of linen vs cotton. No comparison between this linen and cotton thread. The cotton is a lot stronger. - Eric ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 4 Oct 1996 09:46:56 -0300 From: Margaret Rae Carignan Subject: Re: white linen In resonse to Eric's question; I was told never to bleach linen by one of my Costume Studies instructors. Linen apparently never dries completely, and chlorine bleach will never completely rinse out of it, meaning that your linen is probably going to disintegrate alot sooner. (It definitely won't last 100 years, which it ordinarily would). You might want to try a stain remover, like Zout or Rit, but I suspect that ain't nothin going to get that stain out now! Keep in mind that chlorine bleach is a drastic measure for stain removal (it will help keep clothes white that are already white, when used regularly in small quantities, but it rarely produces the effect we want on bad stains!), and that you shold always try less damaging methods first. Does anyone out there have sources of info on textile conservation and resoration? If such a thread has not already gone through here, it might be interesting for all of us. Sorry I couldn't be more help, but I'm sure someone here will be! Meg/Francesca ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 4 Oct 1996 10:42:30 GMT From: "Paul C. Dickie" Subject: Re: Pincushions In message <1734.199610030912@mailhub.ggr.co.uk> csy20688@GGR.CO.UK writes: > On Wed, 2 Oct 1996, Margo Anderson wrote: > > > Here's one that come from the Ren Faire circuit: : everyone in 16th century > > England wore a tankard or goblet hanging on their belt. > > Meg/Francesca wrote > > >You're right - they're wrong. In all my years of research, I have NEVER > >seen a tankard hanging off a person. A pouch, perhaps (especially on a > >man, but ocassionally on a woman) > > I agree, I think the pictures are remarkable for how little people wore > hanging from their belts, especially after you've tried coping with an event > with no-where else to put anything! Pouch (presumably holding spoon - they > are big enough) and often a bollock dagger stuck through the gap between > pouch and belt, with a knife on the other side, is about the limit. I'm sure I shall regret asking this, but *what* was a "bollock dagger"? < Paul > ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 4 Oct 1996 07:22:33 -0600 From: Majordomo@INQUO.NET Subject: Welcome to stagecraft -- Welcome to the stagecraft mailing list! If you ever want to remove yourself from this mailing list, you can send mail to "Majordomo@inquo.net" with the following command in the body of your email message: unsubscribe stagecraft h-costume@andrew.cmu.edu Here's the general information for the list you've subscribed to, in case you don't already have it: Welcome to the Stagecraft mailing list. Send submissions to stagecraft@inquo.net. The list is just a digest mail forwarder so send all maintenance messages (additions, address changes, deletions, etc) to stagecraft-request@inquo.net. Other working addresses are included below. The list can also be received in single message format (each message separately remailed as it comes in). Please only request the single message format if you are redistributing the messages or are putting the messages into a public bulletin board. If you want to receive the digest form send mail to stagecraft-request@inquo.net requesting it. Purpose: This list is for the discussion of all aspects of stage work, including (but not limited to) special effects, sound effects, sound reinforcement, stage management, set design and building, lighting design, company management, hall management, hall design, and show production. This is not a forum for the discussion of various stage productions (unless the discussion pertains to the stagecraft of a production), acting or directing methods (unless you know of ways to get actors to stand in the right spots), film or video production (unless the techniques can be used on the stage). The list will not be moderated unless problems crop up. 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Name: Brad Davis Email: bdavis@inquo.net Mail: 3242 South 540 West Bountiful, UT, 84010, USA Phone: USA (801) 298-6345 Skills: Lighting design/tech, Sound design/tech, Tech Director, Stage Manager, Stage crew Company: StageRight Theatre Company If you are a novice user of the networks and/or mailing lists let us know and we'll send you a copy of the Introduction for Novices. Because of the way the mailing list is currently set up you may get bounced messages returned to you, not to the list maintainer. If you do, just forward them on to stagecraft-request and we'll take care of them. We will remove you from the list if your mail bounces and we can't get in touch with you, so if you have problems with mail reaching you (lost or changed account, changed routing, computer has been down for a while, etc.), contact stagecraft-request to be re-added to the list. Brad Davis (list maintainer) stagecraft{-request}@inquo.net Other resources of interest to stagecraft readers (please inform me if they become out of date). Fantasy Costume list Contact: f-costume-request@lunch.asd.sgi.com Purpose: The creation of fantasy costume of all eras: past, present and future. "Fantasy" is defined, for the purposes of this list, as that which comes from the imagination, not that which comes from existing historical designs. Ideally we'd like to concentrate on the creation of new and unique designs, rather than on the reproduction of something already existent. Discussions should concentrate on design, motivation and execution of fantasy clothing, costume, or wearable art. Suitable topics include techniques of abstraction, theatrical costumes, serious Halloween and Mardi Gras costumes, mythological and other non-factual historic-type costumes, incorporating mixed media, creative and motivational forces, using and finding patterns, materials, books, and other sources for supplies. Both a direct mail and a digest version are offered. Both carry identical information and conversations, but the procedure to sign up for one or the other is a little different. To subscribe to either, send e-mail to majordomo@lunch.asd.sgi.com with the command: subscribe f-costume OR subscribe f-costume-digest in the body of the message, depending upon which version you want. Historic Costume list Contact: h-costume-request@andrew.cmu.edu Purpose: This list concentrates on recreating period elegance, from the Bronze age to the mid-20th Century. Its emphasis is on accurate historical reproduction of clothing, historical techniques for garment construction, and the application of those techniques in modern clothing design. Other topics appropriate for discussion include adapting historical clothing for the modern figure, clothing evolution, theatrical costumes, patterns, materials, books, and sources for supplies. Members of the SCA should note that this list discusses historic costume of all eras, not just the SCA period. General conversations about the SCA are not suitable for this list. Other topics not suitable for this list include halloween and children's dress-up costumes, and advertisements for vintage clothing (for sale or wanted). vintage clothing list Contact: vintage-request@lunch.asd.sgi.com Purpose: To discuss existing vintage clothing and vintage costume jewelry, of all eras, but especially existing Victorian vintage through to the Sixties. "Existing" is the key word here, and conversations concentrate on how to find such clothing and jewelry, where to buy it, how to judge its quality, how much to pay for it, how to wear it, etc. Some restoration topics, such as how to use parts of damaged goods in other garments or jewelry settings are suitable topics too. Announcements for estate sales, advertisements for sale or wanted, and pointers to shops are all welcome on the new list. To subscribe, send e-mail to majordomo@lunch.asd.sgi.com with the command: subscribe vintage as the body of the message. Safety in the Arts Gopher Directions to the gopher: Address: gopher.tmn.com Choose the Arts Wire option, and then Center for Safety in the Arts. For those interested, the path information is: Type=1 Name=Center for Safety in the Arts Path=1/Artswire/csa Host=gopher.tmn.com Port=70 URL: gopher://gopher.tmn.com:70/11/Artswire/csa For comments on the gopher or questions on art hazards, e-mail to: Michael McCann, csa@tmn.com Show-Fire mailing list Show-Fire is for the discussion of the safe design, construction, and application of pyrotechnics for entertainment. The primary topics are Theatrical Pyrotechnics, Display Fireworks, and related crafts. Offensive weapons, destructive devices, and mischievous uses of pyrotechnics will be off topic. To subscribe send the following one line message to listserv@vnet.net: subscribe show-fire name@your.address Computerization of the Performing Arts You can subscribe to ARS.DIGIT-L, a list dealing with the computerization of the performing arts, by sending the message: SUB ARS.DIGIT-L _Your_ _Name_ to Listproc@frank.mtsu.edu THEATRE-SOUND: Sound Design for Live Theatre Discussion List This list is for the discussion of all aspects of sound design for live theatre discussion. List Owner or Contact: Jim Bay, theatre-sound-owner@io.com To subscribe to this list, send e-mail to Majordomo@io.com; in the body of the message, type SUBSCRIBE THEATRE-SOUND. To unsubscribe from this list, send e-mail to Majordomo@io.com; in the body of the message, type UNSUBSCRIBE THEATRE-SOUND. Send all other list-related commands to Majordomo@io.com. For assistance, send the command HELP. Send all articles to THEATRE-SOUND@io.com. ARTS-ALERT-USA: The free subscription service aims to make current information available to as broad a coalition of artists, organizations, arts consumers, arts educators and advocates as possible. The hope is to empower more individuals and organizations to be effective advocates in the arts. To subscribe to the service, send an e-mail message to: listproc@lists.colorado.edu Leave the subject line blank. In the body of the message, simply write: subscribe arts-alert-usa followed by your full name. This network is part of a comprehensive plan being implemented by a broad coalition of artists and arts organizations in Colorado, The Colorado Arts Technology and Telecommunications Task Force. For further information contact Richard Finkelstein: finkelst@spot.colorado.edu Theatre related web pages: Lighting Companies http://www.esta.org/ Lighting Design http://www.mit.edu:8001/people/herrick/home.html Sound Design http://www.netminder.com/netminder/ward/rsd Technical Theatre http://www.teleport.com/~moore/entertech.html Virtual Theatre http://www.cc.ukans.edu/~mreaney Theatre Central http://www.mit.edu:8001/people/quijote/theatre-central.html Talent Network directory http://www.talentnet.com/ Production Arts Web Site http://www.prodart.com Dustin Moore's collection http://www.teleport.com/~moore/entertech.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ The following is out of date. Please let me know if you have better information. filmmakers list Send a mail message to majordomo@power.net with the body: subscribe filmmakers Purpose: The Filmmakers' Mailing List deals with all aspects of motion picture production, with an emphasis on technical issues. Heavily stressed are construction and design issues for those working on tight budgets. It should be emphasized that the subject is film, and not video. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 4 Oct 1996 09:37:51 -0400 From: Terry Wass Subject: Re: white linen All: Finally, I can contribute !! Eric Praetzel asked >>I'm curious about what bleach does exactly<< Bleach, by original definition, is a substance which "whitens" textiles. = It now apples to almost any material which removes color by oxidation = (hair bleach, etc.). The compounds used as bleaches are "oxidizers" (the most common: = hydrogen peroxide, sodium hypochlorite, sodium perborate). These = compounds have the ability to break the chemical bonds of organic = materials (the stain or dye) during the process of oxidation. The = ultraviolet rays in sunshine do this also. Bleach works so well on some chemical stains because it breaks the stain = molecule up into smaller parts by breaking its chemical bonds. The = resulting fragment molecules either have no color, or are such that they = can be washed away with the washwater. Bleach is not very effective on "waterstains." This is due to the fact = that a "waterstain" is actually the deposition of insoluble salts on the = material left behind when the water evaporated. These same salts are = contained in "hard water." That's why irons use distilled water, so we = don't leave these salt deposits behind. Chemically the best way to remove these salts is to dissolve them, = usually in an acidic solution. Or by using a chemical which makes the = water "softer." I AM NOT RECOMMENDING THAT YOU USE ACID ON YOUR LINENS = .... REMOVING WATERSTAINS FROM FABRICS IS NOT MY AREA OF EXPERTISE !! = There are commercially available products which can accomplish this. From ???@??? Mon Oct 07 13:16:56 1996 Received: from brownvm.brown.edu by mail.math.TU-Berlin.DE with SMTP id AA11657 (5.67b8/IDA-1.5 for ); Sat, 5 Oct 1996 05:06:47 +0100 Message-Id: <199610050406.AA11657@mail.math.TU-Berlin.DE> Received: from BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU by BROWNVM.brown.edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with BSMTP id 4506; Sat, 05 Oct 96 00:01:45 EDT Received: from BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU (NJE origin LISTSERV@BROWNVM) by BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 9960; Sat, 5 Oct 1996 00:01:39 -0400 Date: Sat, 5 Oct 1996 00:01:18 -0400 Reply-To: Historic Costume List Sender: Historic Costume List From: Automatic digest processor Subject: H-COSTUME Digest - 3 Oct 1996 to 4 Oct 1996 To: Recipients of H-COSTUME digests Terry Wass ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 4 Oct 1996 11:11:29 -0400 From: Eileen Watson Subject: Dating a 3 or 4 tiered gathered skirt-Taos style? Could anyone help me with authenticating the 3 or 4 tiered gathered full skirt sometimes called a Navajo skirt from the 1870's and tell me if this style is seem earlier ( possibly in Taos?) Any help on earliest dates and sources for the info. will get things started, plus appropriate fabrics ( including color, Print vs. Solid). Any information would be gladly appreciated and shared with my fellow reenactors. Thanks, Eileen Watson ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 4 Oct 1996 11:24:07 -0400 From: Susan Evans Subject: Re: Paintings as documentation Regarding the discussion on sources and misconceptions, I would be wary of holding paintings as 100% accurate documentation. I used to until I read the book "Martin's Hundred". Basically, the author (an archaeologist) said you can't rely on paintings totally because: the artist may be trying to portray an idea/allegory rather than reality; the "details" (such as stuff hanging from a belt) may have, in the artist's opinion, made the painting look cluttered; a particular artifact may not have existed (painted from imagination); a particular artifact may not have been used in that time period (something left over from his grandparents and used as a prop); a particular artifact may not have been used by the class of person holding it (peasant with glass goblet, for instance - an allegory, perhaps). I've got a book called "Polygraphics", which is a book for artist's showing how to draw, paint, mix up stuff, etc. It also includes a chapter on how different subjects are to be depicted. It states that certain props, etc. are associated with certain individuals (saints-obviously, but also Greek gods, etc.) As an artist was more interested in composition than historical authencity in period, I'd be careful of holding paintings as totally accurate. Portraits of specific individuals are probably "safer" to use as documentation than non-portraits. The noble possessed the wealth necessary to own the fine props. The middle class (if looking at a portrait) may have tried to look more "upscale" and the artist accommodated the customer. Not that I know (or have seen) paintings with cutlery, etc. hanging off a belt (I haven't), but if you were paying to have your portrait painted, and wanted to look successful, you'd simulate what the wealthier class did. As for the poor class, you can read in some books that they wore rags, etc. but I don't think I've ever seen them portrayed that way in period paintings. They are usually wearing whole clothes (unpatched too). Artistic license has to be factored into documentation. Sue Evans aka Shoshonnah Jehanne ferch Emrys ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 4 Oct 1996 11:08:23 -0700 From: Frances Grimble Subject: Corset clasps It's easy to customize a corset clasp, at least the kind consisting of two lengths of metal with knobs on one side and loops on the other. Get a clasp longer than you want. Figure out where you want the top and bottom fastenings to fall. Cut the ends with a hacksaw and round them with a file. Dip the ends in tipping solution. You can customize metal corset bones this way too. Fran Grimble ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 4 Oct 1996 11:14:22 -0700 From: The Polsons Subject: Re: H-COSTUME Digest - 2 Oct 1996 to 3 Oct 1996 Carol said: > Campfollower reenactors of the same era sometimes wear a knife >tucked into a leather belt. But women in this time period did not >wear leather belts! On the other hand, ladies had chatellaines. It >the 18thC, these were a decorative clip (which hooked onto the >waistband of the petticoat) with several chains hanging down. The >ends of the chains held sewing supplies (scissors, pincushion, needle >case, tape measure, etc) and keys. A simpler version would be a piece >of tape (ribbon) folded in the middle, with the fold tucked into the >waistband and scissors and a pinball (pincushion) hanging from either >end. 18thC women wore pockets, which held other items. Don't ask me why, but I have to comment again on this. ;> It makes sense to me, as a reenactor and needleworker, that you wouldn't ALWAYS have EVERYTHING hanging from your belt, just when you're going to USE it! I keep my chatelaine in my basket until I'm getting down to some serious embroidery, then I get it out and have it on to use as I need it. It also makes sense to me that this is why you don't usually see a bunch of stuff hanging from belts in period sources - workers would keep their supplies in their shop or stored away until needed. If you're a woodcutter, you'll have an axe in your belt, but if you're say, a dairyman who happens to own an axe, you certainly wouldn't have it in your belt all the time. (Except if you're being OOP and essentially saying to everyone in visual range, "see what a neat, period, expensive axe I've got?") So the bottom line - 1) People don't know any better because they just see others doing it. 2) People are showing off their "neat period stuff". 3) Hangy stuff should be kept to a minimum, using *documentation* (gasp!) and common sense for what really goes on their belts as needed for the tasks they're performing at that time. Hope I've made this more clear than I think I did... (huh?) 8-) Then Francesca said: >Take another look at that Vecchio painting. Yess, the neckline is >gathered, and it does close with ribbon ties, but I'll bet the farm it's >NOT a drawstring. (snip) >These necklines have the gathers (or often tiny cartridge pleats) >sewn into place permanently. The ribbons merely allow the neckline to >open, not to change shape. I have seen all of the paintings you have >refered to, and would love to sit with you, with them before our eyes, and >argue this point. I'm honestly not trying to be a snot here, but how many artists/painters are so well versed in clothing construction that they accurately portray how a piece is constructed? Holbein being the obvious exception, how many spent their commission time and money on clothing rather than on the people whose portrait they were doing? Just some more grist... ;> ********************************************** Willow Polson....willow@recreating-history.com Recreating History magazine ..."Historic Crafts, Cooking, and Clothing"... ----> http://www.recreating-history.com <----- Call us toll free! 1-(888) REENACT (733-6228) ********************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 4 Oct 1996 14:22:43 -0400 From: Stacey_Weinberger_at_WADSWORTH.WADSWORTH@WADSWORTH.COM Subject: Help Resubsribing New Text Item: Re: Patterns and medieval Jewish Please pardon this message being posted to everyone. We've been having internet problems at work and I think I've been put on the bounces list. Can someone please tell me how to get in contact with the owner of the list? Thank you very much, Stacey stacey_weinberger@wadsworth.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 4 Oct 1996 11:32:18 -0800 From: "R.L. Shep" Subject: Re: Paintings as documentation Susan Evans wrote: > > Regarding the discussion on sources and misconceptions, I would be wary > of holding paintings as 100% accurate documentation. I used to until I > read the book "Martin's Hundred". Basically, the author (an > archaeologist) said you can't rely on paintings totally because: the > artist may be trying to portray an idea/allegory rather than reality; the > "details" (such as stuff hanging from a belt) may have, in the artist's > opinion, made the painting look cluttered; a particular artifact may not > have existed (painted from imagination); a particular artifact may not > have been used in that time period (something left over from his > grandparents and used as a prop); a particular artifact may not have been > used by the class of person holding it (peasant with glass goblet, for > instance - an allegory, perhaps). > I've got a book called "Polygraphics", which is a book for artist's > showing how to draw, paint, mix up stuff, etc. It also includes a chapter > on how different subjects are to be depicted. It states that certain > props, etc. are associated with certain individuals (saints-obviously, but > also Greek gods, etc.) As an artist was more interested in composition > than historical authencity in period, I'd be careful of holding paintings > as totally accurate. > Portraits of specific individuals are probably "safer" to use as > documentation than non-portraits. The noble possessed the wealth > necessary to own the fine props. The middle class (if looking at a > portrait) may have tried to look more "upscale" and the artist > accommodated the customer. Not that I know (or have seen) paintings with > cutlery, etc. hanging off a belt (I haven't), but if you were paying to > have your portrait painted, and wanted to look successful, you'd simulate > what the wealthier class did. > As for the poor class, you can read in some books that they wore rags, > etc. but I don't think I've ever seen them portrayed that way in period > paintings. They are usually wearing whole clothes (unpatched too). > Artistic license has to be factored into documentation. > > Sue Evans aka > Shoshonnah Jehanne ferch Emrys Although I agree with you in principle, paintings are often the ONLY thing we have to rely on when it comes to historical costume. Often there are no examples left (and does one example of something mean that all garments from that era looked exactly like that?). What has to be done is look at a number of paintings from the same era and by different artists to try to find a happy medium. That and read accounts of the clothing of the era from a PRIMARY SOURCE. There are certain eras where allegory was it, and all the art seemed to reflect it. It is obvious that people did not look like that. A little bit of discretion and a lot of research is what makes for a good product/result if you are trying to establish what was worn when. ~!~ R.L. Shep ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 4 Oct 1996 14:49:53 -0400 From: Peter Songal <643324@ICAN.NET> Subject: Hair Oils I was under the impression that women during the Civil War Era used a lot of hair oil or pomade to dress their hair. This use of oil on the hair to today's modern eye would make us think the hair was greasy and dirty. They certainly did not believe in shampooing everyday. I was wondering--do women re-enactors use oils on their hair today? Kathy Songal ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 4 Oct 1996 15:12:41 EST From: Carol Kocian Subject: Sources & Miscon. - 18thC "bodice" Susan Bridges Loberger wrote, > 1. Too many site directors down South think that All Slave Women Wore > Shifts and that s all. There are published advertisements for runaway slaves and servants that describe what they were wearing. Shortgowns, petticoats, caps, hats, etc. were all worn. One thing that I noticed - checked petticoats or shortgowns & jackets only appeared on descriptions of "negro" women for the Amer. Rev War era. (Checks for these clothing items were pretty rare to begin with.) I wonder if this was a fabric pattern that would be avoided by free women and white indentured servants? Susan Bridges Loberger wrote, >2. Again, seen all the time down here in the south, the petticoat and >chemise outfit. Yes, there are eyewitness accounts that some of the >backcountry women were "naked".... And if these women became campfollowers, would they dress the same way? I would think a woman would dress in a more proper and modest style when around a large group of men who were not family members. Alexa Fletcher wrote, >Yes! Death to the French (bodice)! Even if someone comes up with docu- >mentation for this item, it's become a tedious cliche at events. The idea is to use *documentable* items, not to discount them because we don't like them! This was found to be correct for one ethnic group living in one area. That doesn't justify it's use for any other culture, but for those roles where the garment is appropriate, it should be used! When made with the correct stiffening, the Corset will looks much better than the thin French or English " bodices". There are a lot of examples out there of people mixing cultural influences just because they like certain items. I wrote, the other day, >On the other hand, ladies (middle and upper classes) had >chatellaines. The ends of the chains held sewing supplies (scissors, >pincushion, needle case, tape measure, etc) and keys. Someone mentioned that she didn't want to wear all her sewing supplies dangling from her belt at an event. It all depends on the event, and what else you are doing! A chatellaine is very easy to remove, so I would think that was done if it would interfere with other activities. -Carol Kocian ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 4 Oct 1996 12:19:25 -0700 From: Karen Lovejoy Subject: FWD>RE>H-COSTUME Digest - 2 Mail*Link=A8 SMTP FWD>RE>H-COSTUME Digest - 2 Oct 1996 to 3= Oct 1996 I have been reading this tread with some degree of amusement. I have oft= en watched people walking around w/ various bits of ephemera banging them ab= out the legs and have wondered how they could manage it. I would wager it le= aves some very interesting bruises. Always struck me as being very ungainly a= nd uncomfortable not to mention just plain looking silly. -------------------------------------- Date: 10/4/96 11:58 From: The Polsons Carol said: > Campfollower reenactors of the same era sometimes wear a knife >tucked into a leather belt. But women in this time period did not >wear leather belts! On the other hand, ladies had chatellaines. It >the 18thC, these were a decorative clip (which hooked onto the >waistband of the petticoat) with several chains hanging down. The >ends of the chains held sewing supplies (scissors, pincushion, needle >case, tape measure, etc) and keys. A simpler version would be a piece >of tape (ribbon) folded in the middle, with the fold tucked into the >waistband and scissors and a pinball (pincushion) hanging from either >end. 18thC women wore pockets, which held other items. Don't ask me why, but I have to comment again on this. ;> It makes sense = to me, as a reenactor and needleworker, that you wouldn't ALWAYS have EVERYTHING hanging from your belt, just when you're going to USE it! I ke= ep my chatelaine in my basket until I'm getting down to some serious embroidery, then I get it out and have it on to use as I need it. It also makes sense to me that this is why you don't usually see a bunch = of stuff hanging from belts in period sources - workers would keep their supplies in their shop or stored away until needed. If you're a woodcutte= r, you'll have an axe in your belt, but if you're say, a dairyman who happen= s to own an axe, you certainly wouldn't have it in your belt all the time. (Except if you're being OOP and essentially saying to everyone in visual range, "see what a neat, period, expensive axe I've got?") So the bottom line - 1) People don't know any better because they just se= e others doing it. 2) People are showing off their "neat period stuff". 3) Hangy stuff should be kept to a minimum, using *documentation* (gasp!) an= d common sense for what really goes on their belts as needed for the tasks they're performing at that time. Hope I've made this more clear than I think I did... (huh?) 8-) Then Francesca said: >Take another look at that Vecchio painting. Yess, the neckline is >gathered, and it does close with ribbon ties, but I'll bet the farm it's >NOT a drawstring. (snip) >These necklines have the gathers (or often tiny cartridge pleats) >sewn into place permanently. The ribbons merely allow the neckline to >open, not to change shape. I have seen all of the paintings you have >refered to, and would love to sit with you, with them before our eyes, a= nd >argue this point. I'm honestly not trying to be a snot here, but how many artists/painters are so well versed in clothing construction that they accurately portray how a piece is constructed? Holbein being the obvious exception, how many spent their commission time and money on clothing rather than on the peop= le whose portrait they were doing? Just some more grist... ;> ********************************************** Willow Polson....willow@recreating-history.com Recreating History magazine ..."Historic Crafts, Cooking, and Clothing"... ----> http://www.recreating-history.com <----- Call us toll free! 1-(888) REENACT (733-6228) ********************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 4 Oct 1996 15:35:47 -0700 From: Karen Lovejoy Subject: Re: FWD>RE>H-COSTUME Digest Reply to: RE>>FWD>RE>H-COSTUME Digest - 2 true, I'm not arguing its authenticity. The plague, no running water or electricity or heating are also period but I don't particularly want to recreate them. There were also some very bizarre and silly looking fashions which were period but I don't want to recreate them either. I totally agree that saying things to people about their lack of "periodness" is very rude and tacky, it is better by far IMHO to lead by example and hope that inspires others to do better with their efforts. -------------------------------------- Date: 10/4/96 14:04 To: Karen Lovejoy From: Ron Carnegie At 12:19 PM 10/4/96 -0700, you wrote: >I have been reading this tread with some degree of amusement. I have often >watched people walking around w/ various bits of ephemera banging them about >the legs and have wondered how they could manage it. I would wager it leaves >some very interesting bruises. Always struck me as being very ungainly and >uncomfortable not to mention just plain looking silly. > > Of course this does not make it wrong. Most 16th century wood cuts that I have seen of sailors, show them wearing ballock daggers hanging from the front of their belts and dangling around half way down their thighs. This is very impratical, except when hanging aloft in the rigging. A good example of this would be the title page for the "MARINER'S MIRROR". That would be the original dutch version, the english translation shows officers, so they are wearing landsmen clothes. Of course you will rarely see 16th century reenactors wearing proper sailor clothes. There was also mention of the errors in paintings. It is important to remember that Pr. Hume still does make use of paintings in his research. (Also explained in "MARTIN'S HUNDRED".) Accuracy in painters varies as well. Breughal, mentioned here oft, has his painting "THE BLIND LEADING THE BLIND". This painting is accurate enough that docters today can diagnose the illness causing each man's blindness. I would say that is not just symbolism or allegory. All primary research has different pluses and minuses. It is important to use many different sorts to reach the end result, rather than to just forget one due to it's inequities. Cheers, Ron Carnegie rcarnegie@widomaker.com ************************************************* "The poetry of history lies in the quasi-miraculous fact that once on this earth, on this familiar spot of ground walked other men and women as actual as we are today, thinking their own thoughts, swayed by their own passions but now all gone, vanishing after another, gone as utterly as we ourselves shall be gone like ghosts at cockcrow." G.M. Trevelyan ************************************************* ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 4 Oct 1996 17:14:55 -0700 From: Cynthia Virtue Subject: Re: Pincushions >In message Paul writes: >> with no-where else to put anything! Pouch (presumably holding spoon - they >> are big enough) and often a bollock dagger stuck through the gap between >> pouch and belt, with a knife on the other side, is about the limit. > >I'm sure I shall regret asking this, but *what* was a "bollock dagger"? It is a dagger with an ... evocative handle and quillions. If you happen to be able to find the January illumination from the Tres Riches Heures (feasting) the servants in front can be seen with them sticking out of their purse-arrangement. To be blunt, the dimensions of the handle, and the guards, which were spherical, resemble men's genitals. Hence the name. A friend of mine has a believable looking version; the handle and guard are of a dark wood; the illuminations could be depicting wood or metal. As Meg/Francesca wrote, they were kept in or with the men's pouches (I don't have the Museum of London knife book to be certain) and this was probably the source of much ribaldry, considering that the term "pouch" is used also as wordplay for the female genitals. --- Cynthia Virtue, or sometimes Lady Cynthia du Pre Argent "Such virtue hath my pen...." -Shakespeare, Sonnet LXXXI "I knew this wasn't _my_ pen!" --Cynthia V. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 4 Oct 1996 19:14:23 -0400 From: Boedeker Subject: help Greetings! For some reason I copied down this address to ask a specific question pertaining to garb and the SCA. Now that many days have passed, I haven't faintest idea what the question was. Could you please e-mail me about the purpose of this site and maybe my memory will return. They say the mind is the first thing to go...... Regards, Viola Boedeker ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 4 Oct 1996 17:46:29 -0700 From: Laura Nunemaker Subject: Re: Ready for the eighties... Parachute pants! (I loved mine when I was 16) ********************************************** Observation If I don't drive around the park, I'm pretty sure to make my mark. If I'm in bed each night by ten, I may get back my looks again. If I abstain from fun and such, I'll probably amount to much; But I shall stay the way I am, Because I do not give a damn. Dorothy Parker (Goddess) Laura Nunemaker drkangel@sirius.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 4 Oct 1996 23:59:27 UT From: Susan Carter Subject: Re: Flag Silk. >I have been looking for silk that is wide enough to make one buff and one >green flag (to be painted on) that measures 5 feet on the hoist by 6 feet on >the fly, and two blue flags that are 6 feet on the hoist by 7-1/2 feet on the >fly. But I haven't had any luck. I really don't want to seam two pieces >together, this would not only be incorrect, but would look really tacky. The Ummm, can I ask what era these flags are supposed to be. Silk was a narrow fabric for centuries. I don't know when it got wide but I'd venture a guess that it's a 20th century development. As to flags, all my research indicates narrow widths joined together. Su Carter _ sucarter@msn.com ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 5 Oct 1996 00:05:07 UT From: Susan Carter Subject: Re: sources & misconceptions >I'm told that this is why the interpreters at Plimoth don't leave their >knives around - they disappear. Anybody from Plimoth want to comment? And not just knives, we loose pewter and books and just about anything pocket or bagable. About the "Bodice". I was at Williamsburg while they were still in the costume mill and I'll admit they were easy and somewhat comfortable but most of us were very aware of how wrong they were and just dying to get something more accurate. I was thrilled with my full boned stays and jacket, although it's almost impossible to drive in stays, especially with a stick-shift!! The stays at Plimoth aren't nearly as stiff but very comfortable once you get used to them. There's something to be said for wearing "costume" 5 days a week, but oh, thank heavens for the washing machine at the end of that week!!! Marsha, I'll pass along your thanks. Su _ Su Carter Weaver, spinner, lacemaker (508) 746-1622 ext.214 Plimoth Plantation sucarter@msn.com Box 1620 Plymouth, MA 02362 "There is no problem which does not become increasingly complex when actively investigated, growing in scope and depth, endlessly opening up new vistas of work to be done." - Fernand Braudel ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 4 Oct 1996 22:24:51 -0400 From: "Penny E. Ladnier" Subject: Drafting a Pattern I am going on a new adventure and need help. I need to know the simplest way to take a pattern from an 1895 skirt. Also note, that it is cartridge pleated in the back. The person who was to teach me to do this, bailed out. She was going to teach me a method using tracing paper. I need step by step directions of this or any other method. Thank you in advance, Penny E. Ladnier Penny E. Ladnier, Virginia Commonwealth University s0peladn@erols.com http://www.geocities.com/BourbonStreet/2157 "If it is out there, I'll find it..." ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 4 Oct 1996 23:05:15 -0400 From: Susan Evans Subject: Re: Paintings as documentation I wasn't suggesting that we not use paintings as documentation. I was suggesting some caution in holding them as 100% accurate. Many people don't take the time to survey different paintings from their chosen time period and develop a "likely" concept. Many people also hold the notion of "I saw it in a painting so it must be true". Sue Evans ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 4 Oct 1996 23:02:50 -0400 From: Kelly A Rinne Subject: Re: Ready for the eighties... And what, pray tell, has this to do with costume? On Fri, 4 Oct 1996, Laura Nunemaker wrote: > Parachute pants! (I loved mine when I was 16) > > > ********************************************** > > Observation > > If I don't drive around the park, > I'm pretty sure to make my mark. > If I'm in bed each night by ten, > I may get back my looks again. > If I abstain from fun and such, > I'll probably amount to much; > But I shall stay the way I am, > Because I do not give a damn. > > Dorothy Parker (Goddess) > > Laura Nunemaker > drkangel@sirius.com > ------------------------------ End of H-COSTUME Digest - 3 Oct 1996 to 4 Oct 1996 ************************************************** From ???@??? Mon Oct 07 13:16:58 1996 Received: from brownvm.brown.edu by mail.math.TU-Berlin.DE with SMTP id AA14817 (5.67b8/IDA-1.5 for ); Sun, 6 Oct 1996 05:05:15 +0100 Message-Id: <199610060405.AA14817@mail.math.TU-Berlin.DE> Received: from BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU by BROWNVM.brown.edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with BSMTP id 0515; Sun, 06 Oct 96 00:00:52 EDT Received: from BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU (NJE origin LISTSERV@BROWNVM) by BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 0398; Sun, 6 Oct 1996 00:00:51 -0400 Date: Sun, 6 Oct 1996 00:00:43 -0400 Reply-To: Historic Costume List Sender: Historic Costume List From: Automatic digest processor Subject: H-COSTUME Digest - 4 Oct 1996 to 5 Oct 1996 To: Recipients of H-COSTUME digests There are 11 messages totalling 385 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. RUSSIAN ART - NEW EXHIBIT on the WEB 2. Togas? 3. Paintings as documentation (3) 4. Bollock daggers 5. re. Can anyone help? 6. June Swann lecture 7. H-COSTUME Digest - 28 Sep 1996 to 29 Sep 1996 8. 19th C Amer. Army 9. Sorry -- my goof! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 5 Oct 1996 08:05:27 +-300 From: George Maevski Subject: RUSSIAN ART - NEW EXHIBIT on the WEB Dear H-Costume List Subscribers, We are are an art gallery from Moscow, Russia, featuring quality contemporary art of Russian painters, sculptors, graphic artists. Right now our site features more than 140 works, and is constantly growing. We would like to invite you to visit our site: http://www.rawspace.net/RusArt/rusart.htm We would appreciate any of your comments and suggestions and we are open to any form of possible cooperation. Cross-links are welcome. Hope to hear from you soon. Best regards, George Maevski Manager of RusArt Web server and Mgallery (Virtual Art Gallery) 117311 V311 P.O. Box 57 Moscow, Russia ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 5 Oct 1996 09:38:58 -0500 From: Curt McClain Subject: Togas? I have searched the net for hours with no success trying to find some information on togas that goes beyond "take a bedsheet and wrap it around yourself...". If anybody has any ideas as to where I might look for more information, please e-mail me. Best wishes, Curt McClain ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 5 Oct 1996 11:31:23 -0400 From: Ed Safford & Carol Kocian Subject: Re: Paintings as documentation Sue Evans wrote, > I wasn't suggesting that we not use paintings as documentation. I was >suggesting some caution in holding them as 100% accurate. Many people >don't take the time to survey different paintings from their chosen time >period and develop a "likely" concept. Many people also hold the notion >of "I saw it in a painting so it must be true". Claudia Kidwell, costume curator at the Smithsonian Institution, gives a wonderful presentation about 18thC portraits done by Copley. He painted many women in classical-looking dress that did not resemble something they may have actually owned. -Carol Kocian *^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^* This account is shared by Carol Kocian and Ed Safford. Carol can also be e-mailed at ckocian@epe.org Ed can be reached at ecsaffor@ingr.com ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 5 Oct 1996 10:04:57 -0800 From: "R.L. Shep" Subject: Re: Paintings as documentation Ed Safford & Carol Kocian wrote: > > Sue Evans wrote, > > I wasn't suggesting that we not use paintings as documentation. I was > >suggesting some caution in holding them as 100% accurate. Many people > >don't take the time to survey different paintings from their chosen time > >period and develop a "likely" concept. Many people also hold the notion > >of "I saw it in a painting so it must be true". > > Claudia Kidwell, costume curator at the Smithsonian Institution, > gives a wonderful presentation about 18thC portraits done by Copley. He > painted many women in classical-looking dress that did not resemble > something they may have actually owned. > > -Carol Kocian > > *^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^* > This account is shared by Carol Kocian and Ed Safford. Carol can also be > e-mailed at ckocian@epe.org Ed can be reached at ecsaffor@ingr.com All that means is that some of Copley's paintings are not valid for research. It does not mean that all paintings are invalid. Unfortunately from what I can see there are a number of people who want 1 book, or 1 painting, or someone who is on the net to solve all their costuming or research problems. It just won't work in the long run. In this case you are using an example of something that Claudia Kidwell (who I happen to know, respect and admire as a researcher) does compeletely out of context. ~!~ R.L. Shep ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 5 Oct 1996 12:35:59 GMT From: David Brewer Subject: Bollock daggers In message cvirtue@WELL.COM writes: > >I'm sure I shall regret asking this, but *what* was a "bollock dagger"? > > It is a dagger with an ... evocative handle and quillions. If you happen > to be able to find the January illumination from the Tres Riches Heures > (feasting) the servants in front can be seen with them sticking out of > their purse-arrangement. > > To be blunt, the dimensions of the handle, and the guards, which were > spherical, resemble men's genitals. Hence the name. A friend of mine has > a believable looking version; the handle and guard are of a dark wood; the > illuminations could be depicting wood or metal. Archelogical finds in England generally have a wooden handle attached to a whittle tang, with the "bollocks" attached to a metal plate (at the hilt) with long rivets/nails. Supposedly some continental daggers of this sort have metal "bollocks". The quaint Victorian name for them is "kidney dagger". > As Meg/Francesca wrote, they were kept in or with the men's pouches (I > don't have the Museum of London knife book to be certain) and this was > probably the source of much ribaldry, considering that the term "pouch" is > used also as wordplay for the female genitals. Note that some pouches are referred to as "bollock pouches", and placed often dangling at the front of the belt in a sort of scrotal aspect, like a sporan. Pair with a dagger, hilt thrust upward between the pouches two suspending loops and one has a fine male display. To be perfectly honest I don't know what the origin of these two names is. It sounds vaguely period (15th-16th century), more so than "kidney" certainly, and I have never known them to be called anything else in my circle. The only period use of the word "bollock" I have seen clearly refers to bullocks. -- David Brewer ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 5 Oct 1996 23:10:04 +0100 From: Carol May Subject: re. Can anyone help? Suzanne, I can't thank you enough for the list!! It's brilliant!! I was having some real problems..........thank you!! I'll let you know what mark i get for the project and you can take some of the credit. Thanks again!! Carol ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 5 Oct 1996 23:41:58 UT From: Susan Carter Subject: June Swann lecture I sent this announcement before the time and price were set. Here's the firm information- Shoes from Columbus to the Present a public lecture by June Swann, M.B.E. former keeper of the Shoe & Boot Collection at Northampton Central Museum Saturday, October 26 4:30 PM at Plimoth Plantation Plymouth, MA Free ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 5 Oct 1996 23:35:14 UT From: Susan Carter Subject: Re: Paintings as documentation Wow, I had forgotten about the Noel Hume painting stuff in Martin's Hundred - have to read it again! Another excellent read is "The Tudor Image" by Maurice Howard. It was published by the Tate Gallery to accompany the Dynasties exhibit. ISBN # 1-85437-159-2 price L 7.95. Su _ sucarter@msn.com ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 5 Oct 1996 19:22:03 -0700 From: David & Anita Pirkle Subject: Re: H-COSTUME Digest - 28 Sep 1996 to 29 Sep 1996 > Topics of the day: > 1. French Rennaisance (3) > 2. Three Wise Men > 6. Higher backed corset???? > 10. Seamed stockings > > ------------------------------ > > Date: Sun, 29 Sep 1996 10:18:06 EDT > From: Larry Farris <73764.2675@COMPUSERVE.COM> > Subject: Three Wise Men > > Dear Tammie, > > As there is no mention in the Bible as to where the Wise Men came from, or even > that there were three, the costuming for them is very much open to > interpretation. I recently costumed them for a production of "Ahmal and the > Night Visitors" and did them up as Egyptian, Persian, and Byzantine. that was a > lot of fun and quite fanciful, as that show is seen through the eyes of a child. > I even did one once Chi'in. Of course none of that is exactly "Biblical" period, > but I believe that the idea there is to portray some men who were a cut above > the everyday man in the street. If you would like some more info, please e-mail > me at the above address. > > M. Alysea of Ashley > MKA Karen Farris > > ------------------------------ > > Date: Sun, 29 Sep 1996 09:25:17 -0800 > From: "R.L. Shep" > Subject: Re: French Rennaisance > > P. M. Ostwald wrote: > > > > Does anyone on the costume list have any suggestions where I could look to > > find portraits of french 16th century costumes. I've got books on 16th > > century English costume, and know of others, but not French. Except for a > > few images in general historical fashion books, I've yet to see anything > > useful. > > > > Alternatively, perhaps a book on the court artists Clouet? (father and son, > > I think) who painted many Royal and noble portraits of the time. > > > > Tricia > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Patricia Ostwald Newcastle Mater Hospital > > Medical Physicist Locked Bag 7 > > Radiation Oncology Department Newcastle Region Mail > > Centre > > 2310, NSW, Australia > > There is a new book out entitled: THE FRENCH PORTRAIT 1550-1850. > According to one of our reviewers for RAGS this book is an excellent > source for costume information. Also a lot of the information it > contains has not been available in English for some time. It is > distributed by University of Washington Press (world rights) so I > suppose that you would be able to at least order it through a bookshop > in Australia. > > Good Luck! > > ~!~ R.L. Shep > http://www.mcn.org/R/RAGS > > ------------------------------ > > Date: Sun, 29 Sep 1996 18:06:44 -0700 > From: don and carolyn richardson > Subject: Re: Higher backed corset???? > > Melissa Hicks wrote: > > > > wouldn't the boning over the hips make this style uncomfortable and > > restrictive?? > > > > >Several friends swear by the longer lengthed corset as well. It's > > >something to consider when making your own. And I mean down over the > > >hips. I've got one made this way (for Edwardian) and it's definitely > > >more comfortable for anyone with prominent hip bones like mine. No > > >jabbing and it doesn't feel like your hips are about to fall off by the > > >end of the day (like my Elizabethan). > > > > > >Carolyn > > > > > > > > Not if you use spiral bones, which are more appropriate to Victorian and > Edwardian corsets, instead of the straight bones typically used in > earlier periods. Spiral bones approximate the movement you can get from > actual whalebone (baleen) which was more common in later periods. > > Carolyn > > ------------------------------ > > Date: Sun, 29 Sep 1996 21:56:32 -0400 > From: "M. Cricket Bauer" > Subject: Corsets > > Spiral bones in Victorian corsets is news to me! > Waugh describes the use of whalebone into the early 20th century, > despite the developments in the steel industry. (CC p.169) > What is your source?- I'd love to be able to expand the types of boning > I use, and still be authentic.. > > Cricket > > ------------------------------ > > Date: Sun, 29 Sep 1996 19:53:01 -0700 > From: "erin k. gault" > Subject: Seamed stockings > > Yesterday I bought a whole bunch of old seamed stockings at a Salvation > Army basement sale. The old ladies in there said they were probably from > the forties. All of them have a weird reinforcment in the heel that > would definitly extend above the top of the back of the shoe. Why was > that there and was it supposed to show? > > ***************************************************************** > * Erin K. Gault Evergreen State College * > * e-mail: gaulte@elwha.evergreen.edu * > ***************************************************************** > > ------------------------------ > > Date: Sun, 29 Sep 1996 23:22:50 -0400 > From: Kelly A Rinne > Subject: Re: French Rennaisance > > Boucher's 20,000 years of costume is the "bible" in this business, > followed a close second by Milia Davenport's History of Costume. > More than you will ever want to know.K > ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 5 Oct 1996 22:12:34 -0400 From: EGerds@AOL.COM Subject: Re: 19th C Amer. Army In a message dated 96-09-28 14:53:38 EDT, cricket wrote: << Even the reenactor's in the US have trouble finding the appropriate 19th uniform fabrics. Most officer grade uniforms, Mex. War through Indian wars at least, used a dark blue superfine wool broadcloth that had a short but smooth one way nap, and was tightly fulled so it doesn't fray when cut. Enlisted grades used different fabrics, depending on which war, and whether dress or fatigue. >> AlterYears carries the dark blue wool that is from the same mill as the Smithsonian uses when they are doing reproductions of ACW uniforms. It is so dark that you would swear in low light that it was black. It has a definate nap to it, and has a wonderful hand. I don't think it is fulled as tightly as the original uniform wool, but at only $20.00/yd (60" wide) it's pretty good. Liz Gerds ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 5 Oct 1996 19:28:57 -0700 From: David & Anita Pirkle Subject: Re: Sorry -- my goof! I didn't send my "digest of the digest" to you on purpose -- honest! Sorry! Anita ------------------------------ End of H-COSTUME Digest - 4 Oct 1996 to 5 Oct 1996 ************************************************** From ???@??? Mon Oct 07 13:16:59 1996 Received: from brownvm.brown.edu by mail.math.TU-Berlin.DE with SMTP id AA17640 (5.67b8/IDA-1.5 for ); Mon, 7 Oct 1996 05:05:33 +0100 Message-Id: <199610070405.AA17640@mail.math.TU-Berlin.DE> Received: from BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU by BROWNVM.brown.edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with BSMTP id 2544; Mon, 07 Oct 96 00:01:08 EDT Received: from BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU (NJE origin LISTSERV@BROWNVM) by BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 1111; Mon, 7 Oct 1996 00:01:07 -0400 Date: Mon, 7 Oct 1996 00:00:59 -0400 Reply-To: Historic Costume List Sender: Historic Costume List From: Automatic digest processor Subject: H-COSTUME Digest - 5 Oct 1996 to 6 Oct 1996 To: Recipients of H-COSTUME digests There are 15 messages totalling 339 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. Cutlery (and flatware) 2. 19th C Amer. Army 3. A little of everything (2) 4. Togas? 5. Claddagh rings (was New interest...) (2) 6. Two new historically-dressed paper dolls to give away 7. Paintings as documentation (3) 8. Reinforced Stockings 9. hanging "stuff" on your belt 10. Paintings as reference. 11. H-COSTUME Digest - 2 Oct 1996 to 3 Oct 1996 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 5 Oct 1996 23:26:50 -0700 From: Julie Adams Subject: Re: Cutlery (and flatware) >On the question of theft, which is a problem over here too, is there >nothing the organisers can do?, particularly if they are going to fine you >if you lose something and don't allow you to behave inauthentically! What >about a secure area out of the public's way where things can be left, or >locked cupboards if things get really bad! Most events I've been to do >have somewhere things can be left - especially valuable things like musical >instruments. > >Caroline At some of the big Renn faires here in CA, there are not many secure areas. And most actors are supposed to work the "streets", so they many not even have a home where they can set their goods down. When I was a street musician years ago, I would ask the kind folk in the Celt camp if I could leave my harp with them, but for the first year or so I worked the faire there, I didn't realize I could do that. Basically it was always with me (talk about a cumbersome accessory!). Even currently, in our military camp, we have had things stolen. Some maybe from visitors, but some from unsavory faire participants. Years ago goblets were a hot item for theft. Nowadays, weapons are targetted more often. Instead of a jug, I often carry a period jug (a trapezoidal style canteen), with a strap over my shoulder. Julie Adams ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 6 Oct 1996 09:07:47 -0400 From: Kelly A Rinne Subject: Re: 19th C Amer. Army Now that I have complete info: MJ Cahn Fabrics, Inc.212-4773570 They deal exclusively in uniform and period wools. Kel ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 6 Oct 1996 08:38:00 CDT From: Mickie Erickson Subject: A little of everything 1. Re Norwegian Bunads: Information is extremely rare. You may be able to find a book on embroidery patterns in a local scandanavian bookstore; you probably will only find info on Hardanger. My mother, who is deeply steeped in the pursuit of norwegian culture, is currently making a Bunad from a region that I can't remember. (using an official pattern/kit) When she got to the embroidery on the blouse, it basically said to do something in "the usual way"!##*&##@ she has searched high and low to find out what that is. She was eventually able to find a real, knowledgeable norwegian, who was able to inform her. P.S. Don't sell the dance groups short. They have a great deal of the same spirit as this group- if you're interested, they'd love to help. 2. About dipping compound: I believe I saw a note on this list months ago about the tool dip; they said that the fumes were most toxic. Please be careful. 3. As someone who is interested in reenacting for the purposes of costuming (i.e.: I have an unfortunate need to costume, but I have to justify it) I address this to any of the buckskinning crowd: would a Napoleonic war (or 1812) veteran be likely to be involved in the trapping/trading thing, & would they have continued to wear their uniform? (I've got an idea that I'd love to execute, but don't want to look outre.) Thanks! Tom@Mickie's station ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 6 Oct 1996 06:58:48 -0700 From: Conrad Hodson Subject: Re: Togas? Try Katherine Strand Holkeboers' Patterns for Theatrical Costumes. There are some pretty good illustrations in it. Your library may have it. Peace, Christine (the Cyborg) On Sat, 5 Oct 1996, Curt McClain wrote: > I have searched the net for hours with no success trying to find some > information on togas that goes beyond "take a bedsheet and wrap it > around yourself...". If anybody has any ideas as to where I might look > for more information, please e-mail me. > > Best wishes, > > Curt McClain > ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 6 Oct 1996 08:24:27 -0600 From: Jeff Gottfred Subject: Re: Claddagh rings (was New interest...) ERICA DANIELLE STEVENS wrote, in part: >PS And can anyone out there tell me the earliest reported records of >claddaugh (sp?) rings or tell me where I could find it? Three or four hand-heart-crown claddagh rings were excavated at Rocky Mountain House, an Alberta fur fort dating to 1799-1821. --Angela Gottfred gottfred@agt.net ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 6 Oct 1996 08:24:39 -0600 From: Jeff Gottfred Subject: Re: Two new historically-dressed paper dolls to give away Thanks to all who asked about the paper dolls. They have found a good home! --Angela Gottfred gottfred@agt.net ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 6 Oct 1996 10:41:02 -0400 From: Booboopies@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Paintings as documentation In a book on Copley (I apologize for not having the citation, I borrowed it from the library ages ago), there is evidence that Copley (and probably other painters as well) maintained a portfolio of gowns for women to chose from for their sitting. There are at least two paintings in which the female sitters are wearing the same gown. Karen Mullian ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 6 Oct 1996 09:13:56 -0700 From: Julie Dickson Subject: Re: Reinforced Stockings The fancy heels on seamed stockings were also used as decoration, to draw attention to attractive ankles. They sometimes had arrows, dots or rhinestones along the seam. Next came sling back heels, to show off the stockings ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 6 Oct 1996 12:25:39 -0400 From: Veda Crewe Joseph Subject: hanging "stuff" on your belt Don't forget the matter of class when thinking about what you would wear on your belt. It is my observation that the more wealthy you were, the more likely you were not to have to carry much. You'd have servants for this. Of course if you were working in the fields, you might not want much of anything in the way. My persona is late gothic. When I am banging around in everyday working class clothing, I wear my pouch and my belt knife. If I need more than that, I carry a basket with my flask, mug, etc. If I am more formally dressed in an extra long flowing over gown, I have the option of fitchets (slits) in the over gown, to get at my pouch. Practicality has to win out in this whole matter. Why carry around more than you need? In my research, I have seen all manner of elaborate, velvet, embriodered, jeweled, tasseled, beaded pouches in all manner of designs. I believe that all classes wore pouches as needed, during my era. Just a few thoughts from a particular angle. Veda Crewe Joseph ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 6 Oct 1996 12:32:59 -0400 From: Veda Crewe Joseph Subject: Paintings as reference. One of the first things to keep in mind about using paintings as reference is the objective of the artist. To do this you need to know a little about the artist him/herself. Pre renaissance art was rarely concerned with realism. Things are recogniseable but the object was not to make things as optically correct as representative or symbolic of. Once you get into the rennaissance the object was much more in the direction of authentic representation. Unfortunately at the same time was the revival of classisism an allegory. So you need to really check into the subject matter of the painting. Portraits, per se are more likely to be free of these kinds of distortions, but you need to check out the tendencies of your artist. It is not completely nessesary to only use the works of the more talented artists of your time period. Sometimes the lesser talents were more slavishly depicting every thread and seam than anyone else. Personally, my own rule of thumb is to cross reference with the work of other artists of the time and find similar pieces. If i can't find three or more artists depicting the same thing, it may be whimsey. Veda Crewe Joseph ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 6 Oct 1996 16:28:13 -0400 From: ERICA DANIELLE STEVENS Subject: Re: Claddagh rings (was New interest...) On Sun, 6 Oct 1996, Jeff Gottfred wrote: > ERICA DANIELLE STEVENS wrote, in part: > >PS And can anyone out there tell me the earliest reported records of > >claddaugh (sp?) rings or tell me where I could find it? > > Three or four hand-heart-crown claddagh rings were excavated at Rocky > Mountain House, an Alberta fur fort dating to 1799-1821. > > --Angela Gottfred > gottfred@agt.net > I suppose since this was my post to begin with I should also post the answer I just found. The earliest record of a claddagh (the correct spelling) ring is 1689, supposedly made by Richard Ioyce (or Joyce if you wish) who lived in Claddagh on Galway Bay. Just to let you all know. Erica Stevens Oh, and thanks for all of the help so far! :) ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 6 Oct 1996 18:19:46 -0300 From: Margaret Rae Carignan Subject: Re: Paintings as documentation You are oh, so very right about this. Absolute discretion must be used when using paintings as documentation. Allegorical subjects, religious ones, and yes, even portraits, all are subject to the painters' whims. Take, for example, the portraits of the American artist Copely in the Eighteenth century; many of his portraits (of ladies, especially) depict the sitter in the dress of the SEVENTEENTH century! Occassionally, one will see (again, ladies particularly) "classical" garments on sitters, right up to the present time. Portraits are usually intended to flatter the sitter, and create a certain image of that person for "posterity" - they were not always meant as reflections of the times! Paintings should never be your only source; the information gleaned from them should always be backed up by other research sources. Consider the paintings of people (especially the Virgin Mary) wearing those lovely ultramarine robes; lapis lazuli makes an amazing pigment for paint, but makes a lousy dye! Meg/Francesca ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 6 Oct 1996 18:29:31 -0300 From: Margaret Rae Carignan Subject: Re: H-COSTUME Digest - 2 Oct 1996 to 3 Oct 1996 On Fri, 4 Oct 1996, The Polsons wrote: > I'm honestly not trying to be a snot here, but how many artists/painters > are so well versed in clothing construction that they accurately portray > how a piece is constructed? Holbein being the obvious exception, how many > spent their commission time and money on clothing rather than on the people > whose portrait they were doing? Just some more grist... ;> > Point taken. Then again, if the painteres were buying lots of clothes, do you think they might have noticed how they were put together, or at least, how the closures worked? But really, I'm getting mischevious, here. The fact is, we can only know how these things were really done if a) we see one for realy, in front of our eyes, or B) someone from the period has described it in great detail (why didn't they, that's what I want to know! Didn't they know that hundreds of years later, we'd be asking each other these questions?!! Oh, and for documentation hounds (UNITE!), the sixteenth century ladies linen chemise with the polychrome embroidery described in "Cut My Cote" (Dorothy K. Burnham, Royal Ontario Museum) had permanently shaped neckline and wrist gathers. Meg/Francesca ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 6 Oct 1996 14:43:25 -0700 From: Julie Adams Subject: Re: A little of everything > I address this to any of the buckskinning crowd: would a >Napoleonic war (or 1812) veteran be likely to be involved in the >trapping/trading thing, & would they have continued to wear their >uniform? (I've got an idea that I'd love to execute, but don't want to >look outre.) > >Thanks! >Tom@Mickie's station I can't answer your question except to say that I have never seen a big "military" look in any of the period representations of trappers/traders that I have seen. But how odd it would look would depend a lot on which parts of the uniform you used. Mountain men's costumes needed to be practical, so I would keep that in mind. HOWEVER many of the trappers did exchange their wares at or near a military post, so a full military uniform (as if you were a visitor to the Rendezvous from a local post) might not be out of place, especially if there were a group of you in uniform. (That might look cool.) Since most of the costumes I've seen here in So. CA rendezvous are really 1870's and 1880's indian and mountain man costumes, I wouldn't be too concerned. But with the warning that a friend of mine put together a _perfect_ explorers costume (Louis & Clark) and was read the riot act by some jerk in an animal hat and chrome yellow Tandy leather "mountain man" outfit covered with lots of 20th century beadwork. No matter how authentic your costume is, there is no guarantee that you will not have someone come up and criticize it. And no matter how non-period and inauthentic your costume is, you will probably get some compliments. Have fun doing what your doing for its own sake and you will be way ahead of the game. Julie Adams ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 6 Oct 1996 17:56:54 -0600 From: Andrew Tarrant/Julie Malin Subject: Re: Paintings as documentation We must not take anything for granted. I have a lovely photograph of my mother as a little girl wearing a broach and lacy collar which never existed except in the imagination of the person who had coloured the photo! =A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4= =A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4 ]=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF[ Home of Trespasser Ceramics /=AF=AF=AF\=AF=AF=AF\=AF= =AF=AF\=AF\=3D=3D\\ Andrew Tarrant - (SCA) Eric the Trespasser | \ @ \ @ \ @ \ | || Julie Malin - (SCA) Ara the Trespassed | \ \ \ \| || Turner Valley, Alberta, Canada, T0L 2A0 \ \ \ \ /= =3D // Phone/Fax - (403) 933-7221 \_\___\___\ / =A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4= =A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4 '-------------' ------------------------------ End of H-COSTUME Digest - 5 Oct 1996 to 6 Oct 1996 ************************************************** From ???@??? Tue Oct 08 11:22:58 1996 Received: from brownvm.brown.edu by mail.math.TU-Berlin.DE with SMTP id AA24552 (5.67b8/IDA-1.5 for ); Tue, 8 Oct 1996 06:49:32 +0100 Message-Id: <199610080549.AA24552@mail.math.TU-Berlin.DE> Received: from BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU by BROWNVM.brown.edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with BSMTP id 6709; Tue, 08 Oct 96 00:02:19 EDT Received: from BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU (NJE origin LISTSERV@BROWNVM) by BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 3966; Tue, 8 Oct 1996 00:02:03 -0400 Date: Tue, 8 Oct 1996 00:01:10 -0400 Reply-To: Historic Costume List Sender: Historic Costume List From: Automatic digest processor Subject: H-COSTUME Digest - 6 Oct 1996 to 7 Oct 1996 To: Recipients of H-COSTUME digests There are 33 messages totalling 1039 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. 12th/13th century garb 2. Togas? 3. Paintings as documentation (2) 4. togas 5. Corset busks 6. H-COSTUME Digest - 3 Oct 1996 to 4 Oct 1996 7. Stagecraft (4) 8. FW: Flag Silk. 9. Scrip Bags (2) 10. replies 11. German Whalebone 12. fur 13. paintings as sources (2) 14. period misconceptions (4) 15. Togas 16. Early 16th C. Shirt Embroidery 17. Bunads 18. Renaissance wedding rings 19. Anne of Cleves 20. ribbons 21. Web sites depicting Restoration costume 22. A little of everything 23. SCA in Australia 24. Pincushions &c ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 7 Oct 1996 03:57:59 GMT From: Megan Hargreaves Subject: 12th/13th century garb Does anyone know where I can get information on clothing from the 12th/13th centuries? Thanks Megan ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 6 Oct 1996 21:25:00 -0700 From: don and carolyn richardson Subject: Re: Togas? Curt McClain wrote: > > I have searched the net for hours with no success trying to find some > information on togas that goes beyond "take a bedsheet and wrap it > around yourself...". If anybody has any ideas as to where I might look > for more information, please e-mail me. > I just bought a used copy of a Dover book called "Costumes of the Greeks and Romans" by Thomas Hope. I haven't had a chance to peruse it thoroughly so I can't give you an opinion on how well it will meet your needs, but it has lots of illustrations on different toga styles and the text seems informative. I don't know if Dover still has this in print but it shouldn't cost an arm and a leg if it is. Carolyn ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 6 Oct 1996 21:40:57 -0700 From: don and carolyn richardson Subject: Re: Paintings as documentation Margaret Rae Carignan wrote: > > Take another look at that Vecchio painting. Yess, the neckline is > gathered, and it does close with ribbon ties, but I'll bet the farm it's > NOT a drawstring. Correct me if I'm wrong, but a drawstring implies an > arrangement whereby the neckline (or cuff, or whatever) can be adjusted by > pulling on the string or ribbon. That is not what I believe is happening > here. These necklines have the gathers (or often tiny cartridge pleats) > sewn into place permanently. The ribbons merely allow the neckline to > open, not to change shape. I have seen all of the paintings you have > refered to, and would love to sit with you, with them before our eyes, and > argue this point. Of course, this is when someone will calmly slide > conclusive proof of my absolute wrongness before my eyes - that's prbably > why I don't own a farm... Sorry, Francesca - I'm sticking to my guns on this one. I'm willing to concede the Vecchio on the book jacket my be what you say, but I still think the "Flora" portrait is a drawstring. While the picture is reduced (and I can't find another book with it larger right now) and this makes it difficult to see what's going on, the fallen down portion of the chemise on the left, where you can see the interior of the garment, sure looks like a drawstring channel to me. And while I agree completely with those posters who say you can't use paintings as your only documentation, I don't think they should be excluded out of hand. And even the sacred Holbein isn't entirely reliable - many friends who are more enthusiastic needleworkers than I have told me several times that many of Holbein's blackwork patterns were probably made up by him. (Don't ask me what their source is - I don't know). And wasn't it Holbein who painted Anne of Cleeves so attractively in her famous portrait that Henry fell in love with her, only to be repulsed by the real thing? But I don't know of many books on Italian Renaissance clothing that are based on actual sources, ala Arnold. If anyone knows of books in print that are I'd sure love to hear about them. Every book I've seen on the subject, including the ones in Italian, are based on portraiture - and sometimes not even straight portraiture, but on wall panels or the like which I would consider less reliable a source as a straight portrait. I don't recall seeing a single garment in the Italian museums when I was there several years ago - does anyone know if any of the museums there have pieces of clothing on display? I'd sure like to know for my next trip. Tetchubah ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 7 Oct 1995 00:55:50 -0400 From: Sharon and/or Mikie Subject: togas Hello! I don't know how much this will help, but it is definately better than wrapping a sheet around the body! "It was a shape probably like two large segments of a circle, equal in size, placed with straight edges together. In length it was nearly three times and in width about twice the height of the wearer. The toga was put on by folding it longitudinally about the middle, bunching it into thick folds, and hanging it over the left shoulder so that a third of the total length was suspended in front. The remainder was passed diagonally across the back, brought through under the right arm, and again thrown back over the left shoulder. Because of it's width, it covered nearly the whole of the left arm. Finally, the portion crossing the back was spread out so as to cover the right shoulder blade, and the corner that hung forward over the left shoulder was shortened by drawing the toga up at the breast and letting it fall over the mass of folds. This mass of folds at the breast served as a pocket..." The picture shows the cut as being football shaped, with a seam running horizontally along the centre, and another seam running vertically across half the height. (I hope that made sense) Kinda like this: ------ / \ / \ ---------- \ l / \ l / ------ Now, of course, there are a million and one interpretations on how this was done, so PLEASE don't send me hate mail on using the wrong method!!! Oh, by the way, this info is straight out of Carl Kohler's "A History of Costume" :) Hope it helped! Sharon ***************************** * * * DON'T MESS WITH TECHIES - * * * * THEY ALL CARRY KNIVES * * * ***************************** ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 7 Oct 1996 01:59:07 EDT From: Gary Anderson <72437.674@COMPUSERVE.COM> Subject: Corset busks The following inquiry... >Does anyone know where I can find smaller size steel corset clasps say >in a 9" or 10" length? I have not been able to make the 1840 s corset I >want because I can t find a clasp short enough for my 5 foot tall frame. > I cannot deal with the longer lengths because they push down into my >upper legs when I try to sit down. (Ouch!) I tried Greenberg & Hammer >but they only carry 8" (too short) and 12" (too long) lengths. Amazon >doesn t have anything shorter than 11". If anyone can help, please let >me know! Thanks! > >Susannah Eanes, Mantua Maker and Fine Tailoring >(Susan Bridges Loberger for Susannah s Heirloom, Ltd.) Yes, we do! This is Gary Anderson for Raiments/AlterYears (back online after getting back to 10-12 hour workdays). We carry busks in 9 to 16 inch lengths, every 1 inch. Plus all the other boning, plus wooden busks, plus... Well, you get the idea. These were in stock when I was down at the store earlier today, and we mailorder anything at the store. (818) 585-2994 phone, this email address, or drop in if you are in southern California. Hours are 10-4:30 PST Tues, Wed, Fri; 10-7:30 Thurs (That's SCA night), and 11-5:30 Sat. Gary the AlterYears/Raiments Ook ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 7 Oct 1996 09:53:30 +0000 From: Alan Braggins Subject: Re: H-COSTUME Digest - 3 Oct 1996 to 4 Oct 1996 > common. Cutlery and flatware continue to be made by separate methods, > people and even companies until the present day, in traditional workshops. As a student engineer I was taught that the introduction of wet-and-dry sandpaper was the biggest single advance in industrial health and safety this century, and it was developed after a study of lung diseases in Sheffield knife and fork grinders, where one trade traditionally used a wet grindstone and the other dry. --- > after you make your size adjustments. I know you can do this with > engineering drawings (such as pipe fittings) in AutoCAD; I don t know if > PC-Pattern allows you to do this or not. Pipe fittings are rigid and don't drape or stretch. That makes them a lot easier to model realistically. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 7 Oct 1996 11:26:00 BST From: Mrs C S Yeldham Subject: Stagecraft Why do I find myself apparently subscribed to the stagecraft mailing list? I have no interest in this list! Of course we have to treat pictures with the same caution we treat any original or secondary source. A greater worry is the frequency with which authors use Victorian pictures to illustrate histories or texts of other periods - I've recently bought two good histories on the Wars of the Roses and the Hundred Years War - and many of the illustrations are victorian, without being labelled as such. I would be fascinated to have more details on the suggestion Holbein made up some of the blackwork shown in his paintings. Even if there are no extant originals showing those patterns, we have so few of the thousands of pieces which were created, that proves very little. He does show different versions of the blackwork on the different versions of the Jane Seymour picture, for example, but does this prove he made any of them up? He could have been using different examples. I have made a pair of cuffs using the Kunsthistoriche picture as an original - and it is impossible to make them fully double-sided - there are some motifs which are separate from the rest of the blackwork (which means you have to link the thread in somehow). However, this may mean that this is a modern requirement, and they were less bothered about neat backs than modern embroiderers are (someone on the list has said similar things about the back of samplers). On the Anne of Cleves picture, we don't know whether Holbein painted her 'correctly' or 'incorrectly', we only know Henry VIII disliked her as a wife (quite happy to have her as a sister)! It may have been another aspect of her character that disgusted him, and not her looks (eg Henri IV of France was infamous for his body odour). On the subject of samplers, they started out, and exist as such in the 16th century, as 'samples' of different stitches, designed more as aide memoires, either for experienced needlewomen or beginners, than as pictures, and it is probably these that Shakespeare refers to. There is a picture of one such in one of the Dover books on embroidery. Making pictures of samplers, and restricting the stitches to cross-stitch, is much later. Whilst they can be pretty, and were obviously useful training for beginners, to call these 'samplers' is rather a misnomer. It's something else to beware of Just because they used a term we still use, it doesn't mean they meant the same thing by it! Another example is rosaries - the Museum of London book on Dress Accessories, has a section on them in the late middle ages and they varied a great deal (there is a comment that the modern rosary is based on the Dominican - back to the Council of Trent I guess) but I will have another look if anyone is interested. Caroline ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 7 Oct 1996 07:24:03 -0400 From: Terry Wass Subject: FW: Flag Silk. Su Carter wrote: >>Ummm, can I ask what era these flags are supposed to be. Silk was a = narrow fabric for centuries. I don't know when it got wide but I'd venture a = guess that it's a 20th century development. As to flags, all my research = indicates narrow widths joined together.<< If the person is interested in 1860-1865 era flags, I suggest that they = take a look at Time-Life Books, Echoes of Glory Series. Many National = and Regimental flags photos are included. Both pieced and one piece = flags are depicted. As a side note - Waldenbooks has the 3 volume Echoes of Glory in a = paperback boxed set for $24.98. Different covers but same books. I paid = $40.00 each for the hardcopies. Regards, Terry Wass=20 ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 7 Oct 1996 12:57:00 0BS From: "Chandler, Sally A." Subject: Scrip Bags Re the discussion about belts/bags around the waist - these are, I think, scrip bags. There are numerous representations of them in paintings of the time. I believe they were worn by lower classes or for traveling. I've seen no reference to the way they were constructed but most seem to have a net effect on the outside. I think they were actually a long net which could be spread out flat, covered with a cloth in which to place objects or a bundle of belongings. If you then take the two ends and pull the net to its fullest extent it will (with some coaxing) roll itself up so that the two ends can be tied around the waist. A net could be woven to perform this function but with a more tailored shape. This is a very poor description of what I mean and I know it doesn't answer the question about buttons being clearly visible. I'll give that some more thought. They are extremely versatile and useful bags. The construction may have varied - I'm sure it would have done. Sally Ann Chandler ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 7 Oct 1996 09:56:24 -0400 From: Gaelscot@AOL.COM Subject: replies I'm very sorry to harp on this. But please, please, PLEASE don't quote entire letters you are responding to! Just the relevant portions, if you quote anything. I am sure that I can't be the only one who doesn't want to reread whole letters -- including the cute quotes and ASCII drawings -- numerous times. As for quoting someone's original AND someone else's response to it -- AARGH! Gail Finke/gaelscot@aol.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 7 Oct 1996 15:25:00 0BS From: "Chandler, Sally A." Subject: German Whalebone To those of you who asked me to look into this: I haven't forgotten you - just been suffering from 'flu and now intend to enjoy a holiday/research trip to the Continent and I'll get back to you then. Sally Ann ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 7 Oct 1996 10:51:34 -0400 From: STACEY.DUNLEAVY@EY.COM Subject: fur This has nothing to do with costuming, but maybe you folks could direct me to a better source. A friend gave me a gray persian lamb fur coat, thinking I could cut it up into something else. But upon seeing its age and condition, I'd like to keep it as a fur. (animal rightists, don't attack me) The only thing wrong with it is that the cuffs are worn down to the skin. I'm contemplating just sewing on some matching leather as a trim, but I'm too nervous with my leather skills. Does anyone have any other ideas or sources for restoring this coat? Thanks, Stacey STACEY.DUNLEAVY@EY.COM ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 7 Oct 1996 11:18:12 -0400 From: Gaelscot@AOL.COM Subject: paintings as sources Just wanted to add my support for examining more than one painting source. I am not an art historian, but I have read enough about art to know that, at least in the 16th century, "fantasy lace" was often added to people's portraits to make them look pretty. We all know that artists often make the subjects of their paintings look better than they do in real life. When you think about it, why shouldn't they improve the color or fit of a garment, add (or again, improve) some jewelry, or make a cloth color a little richer than it really was? And of course, people might have worn all their jewels at once, rather than what they would really have worn, or worn the most beautiful garment they owned, rather than what they would more typically wear. And if you want to really worry about recreation, just take a look at any of the clothing books that go to the 20th century and see how well they represent what people actually wore! On the other hand -- and I do want to insert a more cheerful note here -- perhaps we can assume (always a dangerous word) that most portraits, if not obviously fancy dress or alligorical, at least depicted dress that people at the time would not find unbelievable. If recreating a particular garment makes you look better or richer than most people actually were, why not? There's SOME fantasy in even the most authentic reproduction, if only in the way it makes us view ourselves. Gail Finke gaelscot@aol.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 7 Oct 1996 11:18:17 -0400 From: Gaelscot@AOL.COM Subject: period misconceptions This is a fun thread! My pet peeve in SCA costuming is the persistent idea that "t-tunics" are correct costuming for nearly all eras before the 1500s. I believe this originated in the fairly accurate statement that VARIATIONS ON t-tunics were worn for centuries. And indeed they were. But the word "variations" makes all the difference. And of course basic construction is one thing, appearance and execution is another. An Elizabethan shirt is a variation on the basic "t" construction, as is a modern t-shirt. What is NOT period -- for ANY period, as far as I can tell -- is the ubiquitous (around here, anyway) t-shaped tunic made out of whatever material happened to be on sale last week and trimmed with metallic trim at the hem, sleeves, and (sometimes) neck. It's certainly an easy garment to make, and a good way to get started. But many people wear these things serenely for years, under the impression that they would look great in almost any country in almost any century. Sigh. Costuming information in more recent eras seems to be more accessible -- and is certainly more complete -- than medieval sources. Hardly anyone seems to publish accurate "how-to" stuff for the middle ages, and I think that's why the costuming level in the SCA is so low. If you're interested in a particular time and place, you pretty much have to go from scratch, unless you're lucky enough to live near someone who has done the research for you. I find it a lot easier, in my limited research time, to find out what is NOT period than to find out what is. Gail Finke gaelscot@aol.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 7 Oct 1996 08:46:06 -0800 From: "R.L. Shep" Subject: Re: Paintings as documentation don and carolyn richardson wrote: > > Margaret Rae Carignan wrote: > > > > Take another look at that Vecchio painting. Yess, the neckline is > > gathered, and it does close with ribbon ties, but I'll bet the farm it's > > NOT a drawstring. Correct me if I'm wrong, but a drawstring implies an > > arrangement whereby the neckline (or cuff, or whatever) can be adjusted by > > pulling on the string or ribbon. That is not what I believe is happening > > here. These necklines have the gathers (or often tiny cartridge pleats) > > sewn into place permanently. The ribbons merely allow the neckline to > > open, not to change shape. I have seen all of the paintings you have > > refered to, and would love to sit with you, with them before our eyes, and > > argue this point. Of course, this is when someone will calmly slide > > conclusive proof of my absolute wrongness before my eyes - that's prbably > > why I don't own a farm... > > Sorry, Francesca - I'm sticking to my guns on this one. I'm willing to > concede the Vecchio on the book jacket my be what you say, but I still > think the "Flora" portrait is a drawstring. While the picture is > reduced (and I can't find another book with it larger right now) and > this makes it difficult to see what's going on, the fallen down portion > of the chemise on the left, where you can see the interior of the > garment, sure looks like a drawstring channel to me. And while I agree > completely with those posters who say you can't use paintings as your > only documentation, I don't think they should be excluded out of hand. > > And even the sacred Holbein isn't entirely reliable - many friends who > are more enthusiastic needleworkers than I have told me several times > that many of Holbein's blackwork patterns were probably made up by him. > (Don't ask me what their source is - I don't know). And wasn't it > Holbein who painted Anne of Cleeves so attractively in her famous > portrait that Henry fell in love with her, only to be repulsed by the > real thing? > > But I don't know of many books on Italian Renaissance clothing that are > based on actual sources, ala Arnold. If anyone knows of books in print > that are I'd sure love to hear about them. Every book I've seen on the > subject, including the ones in Italian, are based on portraiture - and > sometimes not even straight portraiture, but on wall panels or the like > which I would consider less reliable a source as a straight portrait. I > don't recall seeing a single garment in the Italian museums when I was > there several years ago - does anyone know if any of the museums there > have pieces of clothing on display? I'd sure like to know for my next > trip. > > Tetchubah The Piti Palace in Florence has become interested in showing costumes. I don't know if they have a permanent display, but they have put on some really good exhibitions. Most museums in Italy have have good costume collections keep them in storage (alas). ~!~ R.L. Shep ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 7 Oct 1996 10:56:14 -0500 From: Gunnora Hallakarva Subject: Togas Date: Sat, 5 Oct 1996 09:38:58 -0500 From: Curt McClain Subject: Togas? I have searched the net for hours with no success trying to find some information on togas that goes beyond "take a bedsheet and wrap it around yourself...". If anybody has any ideas as to where I might look for more information, please e-mail me. Best wishes, Curt McClain ============================================ Hi, Curt. I can't locate my copies right now, but there are several excellent works by textile archaeologists regarding the clothing of the Romans. I last did a toga and tunica for my Latin Club in high school, but we did extensive research. First you'll need fine-woven white wool (remember, Rome is on the same latitude as Washington DC, it gets cold there!). The tunica is the undergarment worn under the toga. It's basically a tabard, made of two rectangles of wool. The seams are not sewn, rather the edges are ravelled out (6" or so) and the loose threads are roped (or cabled/twisted, however you want to describe it) to hold them together. This cabling continues as edge trim around the arm openings and then down the sides of the garment. There is some documentation for tunicas in a variety of colors and perhaps also appearing in silk or other fabrics, but the classic tunica was made of wool. The toga is a very simple garment indeed. It's a semi-circle of wool, 15 ft across. The Romans took the toga and wet it, then a specially trained slave would patiently make the thousands of tiny folds necessary for proper draping. I suspect that once the toga dried in the right folds, it was probably kept on a stand or form of some type to minimize the time necessary for re-pleating later. The archaeological evidence shows that the toga was actually woven as a semicircle, not cut and hemmed. This is impractical for most modern costumers. I have found that you can use other types of fabric, but it has to be fairly heavy in order to drape properly and stay in place. Bed sheets just won't do it. We used photos of several Roman statues showing the toga from various angles in order to properly get it draped and pleated. This takes some experimentation. Once it is right, the toga will stay on without pinning or sewing. Men of Senatorial class wore a puple stripe at the hem of their togas. Late in the Empire other ornament may have been possible. Good luck with your project. Wassail, ::GUNNORA:: Gunnora Hallakarva Herskerinde =========================================== Ek eigi visa (th)ik hversu o(dh)lask Lofstirrlauf-Kruna heldr hversu na Hersis-A(dh)al ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 7 Oct 1996 09:23:38 -0700 From: Julie Adams Subject: Re: Scrip Bags Sally wrote: >Re the discussion about belts/bags around the waist - these are, I think, >scrip bags. There are numerous representations of them in paintings of the >time. I believe they were worn by lower classes or for traveling. The bags I mentioned in my post were purses and did not look anything like the above description. In 16th c. Germany, the lower classes wore all sorts of bags and purses, but none look like your description. What era/country are you talking about? Could you supply a book reference with a painting in it? Ever Curious, Julie Adams ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 7 Oct 1996 09:23:41 -0700 From: Julie Adams Subject: Re: Early 16th C. Shirt Embroidery >I have made a pair of cuffs using the >Kunsthistoriche picture as an original - and it is impossible to make them >fully double-sided - there are some motifs which are separate from the rest >of the blackwork (which means you have to link the thread in somehow). >However, this may mean that this is a modern requirement, and they were >less bothered about neat backs than modern embroiderers are (someone on the >list has said similar things about the back of samplers). >Caroline Have you noticed that in many Holbein and other German/Flemish painters of the period often show a verticle strip of blackwork on the inside of the neck opening? It is clearly used as an interfacing. Many of the patterns shown on the inside of the collar could not possibly be the back of what is shown on the outside, just due to the differences in pattern type. IMHO, the ruffs and ruffles may be double-sided, but the collar, cuff, and neckbands were lined with separate pieces. The basis for my rationalle is: 1) The embroidery patterns are not compatible. 2) If you examine the construction you see that there is no visible rolled edge seam where the ruffle meets the neckband, indicating that the inner fabric covers the selvage of the seams where the ruffles meat the collar like an interlining. This construction matches the construction that is shown in other sources for the garments of this period (1500-1540). 3) A unlined collar would be likely to buckle, crumple and crush. I believe that there was some interfacing for stiffening as well as the embroidered interlining, which would give support and strength to the collar piece. One layer of embroidered linen will not keep a collar standing. Whether he made the patterns up or not, there are similar patterns in the paintings and woodcuts of other artists of the period. I have a cute little softcover book: German Renaissance Patterns for Embroidery, Curious Works Press, A Facsimile copy of Nicolas Basse'es New Modelbuch of 1568 ISBN 0-9633331-4-3 Which is a reprint of a period book, but also has some good explanitory text. It includes several patterns similar to those found in Holbein's work. Julie Adams ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 7 Oct 1996 11:23:56 -0500 From: Gunnora Hallakarva Subject: Bunads Heilsa! If this is a topic you're interested in, consider joining the Sons of Norway... they put out a monthly magazine called the "Viking" and it has lots of excellent ads throughout. I'd try some of the following dealers: Odden's Norsk Husflid, Inc. Located on Hwy 63 Box 87 Barronett WI 54813 (800) 626-4360 or (715) 822-8747 (carries Bunad shoes and silver, probably have embroidery patterns as well) The Wooden Spoon 1617 Ave K Plano, TX 75074 (800) 2-NORDIC or (214) 424-6867 They have Bunad kits (or they did in the last catalog I got, so I'd expect that they'd have embroidery patterns too!) Sandeen's Scandinavian Art, Gifts & Needlecraft 1315 White Bear Avenue St Paul MN 55106 (800) 235-1315 or (612) 776-7012 (Have needlecraft catalogs for Norwegian, Swedish & Danish, $3 ea refundable) Wassail! ::GUNNORA:: Gunnora Hallakarva Herskerinde =========================================== Ek eigi visa (th)ik hversu o(dh)lask Lofstirrlauf-Kruna heldr hversu na Hersis-A(dh)al ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 7 Oct 1996 09:20:10 -0700 From: Karen Lovejoy Subject: Re: period misconceptions Reply to: RE>period misconceptions My pet peeve in SCA costuming is the persistent idea that "t-tunics" are correct costuming for nearly all eras before the 1500s. -- is the ubiquitous (around here, anyway) t-shaped tunic made out of whatever material happened to be on sale last week and trimmed with metallic trim at the hem, sleeves, and (sometimes) neck.>>>> A friend of mine and I were talking about t-tunics, one of our pet peeves as well, and we decided that they would be a great fund raiser, You know, "My baron/ baroness/etc went to Estrella/Pennsic/etc and all I got was this lousy t-tunic." They would certainly be more interesting to look at then the t-tunics that are worn everywhere. I'm so sick of seeing them worn, especially by people who claim to be costumers, I guess the making of a dozen identical t-tunics qualifies someone as a costumer. Well, until the costume scenery improves, we costumers must just lead by example I guess. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 7 Oct 1996 10:54:34 -0700 From: Julie Adams Subject: Re: period misconceptions >This is a fun thread! My pet peeve in SCA costuming is the persistent idea >that "t-tunics" are correct costuming for nearly all eras before the 1500s. The key to looking more authentic than your standard SCA T-tunic is usually fabric and decorative technique. A nice woven wool tunic in a natural color with subtle decoration, such as a twisted cord couched around the neck and hem, along with a linen undershirt really can be flexible for many periods depending on headwear, shoes and leggings. It may not be the height of fashion for the nobility during all those periods, but it would still be a "period" style for some of the lower and middle classes for many countries and eras from 1000 to 1550 or so. Unfortunately, in the SCA, most of the T-tunics I see are a variety poly-cotton tunics with either a metallic (but not real metal) trim or woven tape trim (in not-necessarily period patterns). And then there are the brocades, prints, and stripes, or color choices, which are sometimes used inappropriately to the period being represented by the wearer. An interesting side to this is that I was doing a costume brochure for a little Renn faire that wanted to do Germany in the time of Maximillian,as they were hosting a reproduction of a Guttenberg press. When a close look is given to Germany in the period of 1490-1510, the T-tunic is still the predominant garment. There are many variations shown just in this 20 year span. Especially for the lower and middle classes. The standard peasant garb is a tunic and trews. This even continues through to mid-16th century in the lower classes. Julie Adams ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 7 Oct 1996 11:56:26 -0600 From: Sylvia Rognstad Subject: Renaissance wedding rings Does anyone know on what hand and what finger wives and husbands wore their wedding rings during the Renaissance? Thanx, Sylvia Rognstad, CU., Boulder ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 7 Oct 1996 13:31:43 -0700 From: Nancee Beattie Subject: Anne of Cleves The story I heard about that Anne of Cleves painting was that Holbein painted her straight-on to hide some less than charming aspects of her visage. If you look at other Holbein portraits, you'll see that the Anne of Cleves portrait is unique in it's full-front angle. Most of his works are three-quarter views. Yes, Henry found her ugly. He called her the Flanders mare. Also, I have heard that she smelled a bit, too. Nancee ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 7 Oct 1996 15:09:44 -0400 From: Gretchen M Beck Subject: Re: period misconceptions Excerpts from internet.other.h-costume: 7-Oct-96 Re: period misconceptions by Karen Lovejoy@TXGTWY.MCI > A friend of mine and I were talking about t-tunics, one of our pet peeves as > well, and we decided that they would be a great fund raiser, You know, "My > baron/ baroness/etc went to Estrella/Pennsic/etc and all I got was this lousy > t-tunic." They would certainly be more interesting to look at then the > t-tunics that are worn everywhere. I've long been considering one that says "My husband/wyfe on pilgramage did go, and all I got was this beloused tee-tunic." toodles, gretchen ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 7 Oct 1996 15:45:41 -0400 From: Tess Parrish Subject: ribbons Would this be the right list to write to for expertise in ribbons? I have a friend who is doing research into the trading goods between the colonists and the American Indians. Her focus is on ribbons--that's her field--and any references to primary sources and documentation of this trade would be very helpful. She is also always collecting information on the silk ribbon trade, just in case someone has some sources that she hasn't already discovered. Thanks. Tess (Tess1929@aol.com) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 7 Oct 1996 10:45:55 -1000 From: Lisa Leong Subject: Re: Stagecraft > Why do I find myself apparently subscribed to the stagecraft mailing list? > I have no interest in this list! > I got that subscription confirmation message too and was wondering whether it was something I did inadvertently. I guess not. Were all h-costume subscribers automatically added to the stagecraft list? I wrote to the majordomo-owner address to ask what happened. Was going to just unsubscribe from stagecraft but was afraid that if I did I might be unsubscribed from h-costume too--just in case the lists are linked. When and if I get a reply I'll let you know. > I would be fascinated to have more details on the suggestion Holbein made > up some of the blackwork shown in his paintings. Even if there are no > extant originals showing those patterns, we have so few of the thousands of > pieces which were created, that proves very little. I'd be interested in hearing about this too. I must admit that I've been looking at quite a few of his paintings and trying to transcribe the patterns onto graph paper with mixed success. Not the best way to find period patterns; more so now if some of them were made up. > On the Anne of Cleves picture, we don't know whether Holbein painted her > 'correctly' or 'incorrectly', we only know Henry VIII disliked her as a > wife (quite happy to have her as a sister)! > I'm not sure how I would reconcile this with "correctness" as I can see why he would do so, but I understand that Holbein omitted Anne's smallpox scars. Also, to what quality was Henry VIII referring to when he called her a "great Flanders mare"? Her size? (lack of) Coordination? Features? Oops, I guess this is not costume related. --lisa ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 7 Oct 1996 14:15:48 -0700 From: "B.M. O'Brien" Subject: Re: Stagecraft On Mon, 7 Oct 1996, Lisa Leong wrote: > I got that subscription confirmation message too and was wondering whether > it was something I did inadvertently. I guess not. Were all h-costume > subscribers automatically added to the stagecraft list? I wrote > to the majordomo-owner address to ask what happened. Was going to just > unsubscribe from stagecraft but was afraid that if I did I might be > unsubscribed from h-costume too--just in case the lists are linked. When > and if I get a reply I'll let you know. I suspect that everyone on this list got that subscribe message. Please post the response to the list when you get you answer. Thanks. PS [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Peggy Sue O'Brien pegisue@u.washington.edu University of Washington Lady Orfhlaith Ingen Bhriain Infectious Diseases, Mailstop SJ-10 Barony of Madrone, An Tir Seattle, WA 98195 [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 7 Oct 1996 15:19:58 PST From: meier@SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Subject: Web sites depicting Restoration costume Help, help. I'm in search of information on web sites where I could examine pictures of clothing from the period 1650-1700, other than the excellent HISTORY OF COSTUME (nothing wrong with the latter, I'm merely looking for other sites). My particular interest is in English costume of the period, should sites exist that narrow it down that much. (I'm not without library resources, of course; I'm just working out of my usual period and looking for electronic sources to jumpstart my search, since I seem to be lashed to my computer for the next several days.) Thanks for any help y'all can offer! Vanessa Schnatmeier =============================================================================== Vanessa Schnatmeier MEIER@SSRL750.BITNET or MEIER@SSRL01.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Disclaimer: I speak only for myself, not SLAC or SSRL =============================================================================== ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 7 Oct 1996 16:33:52 -0600 From: Jeff Gottfred Subject: Re: A little of everything Mickie Erickson wrote (in part): > 3. As someone who is interested in reenacting for the purposes of > costuming (i.e.: I have an unfortunate need to costume, but I have to > justify it) I address this to any of the buckskinning crowd: would a > Napoleonic war (or 1812) veteran be likely to be involved in the > trapping/trading thing, & would they have continued to wear their > uniform? (I've got an idea that I'd love to execute, but don't want to > look outre.) In fact, an entire 1812 regiment had a significant impact on fur trade history in Canada. After the War of 1812, the Swiss mercenary Regiment de Meuron was hired by Lord Selkirk and the Hudson's Bay Company to straighten out some trouble they had with the North West Company. To make a long story short, they laid seige to and captured the North West Company HQ at Fort William, and then marched west to the Red River settlement (now Winnipeg) to become armed settlers and settle some problems that had been happening with North West Company men there (the NWC was not keen to see the HBC establish a settlement at Red River). After settling at Red River for a while, with more civilian Swiss brought in later by the HBC, a major flood convinced them all to go south and settle in the U.S. The Regiment de Meuron is now portrayed by a great bunch of serious reenactors in Winnipeg. Did they get active as trappers or traders? I don't know for sure, but their role in the Canadian fur trade was definitely pivotal. --Angela Gottfred Northwest Brigade Club gottfred@agt.net ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 7 Oct 1996 22:23:39 GMT From: Megan Hargreaves Subject: SCA in Australia Does anyone know how I can get involved in the SCA in Australia if there is one. I am extremely interested and would appreciate any information. Thanks Megan ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 7 Oct 1996 20:23:49 -0500 From: "Sara J. Davitt" Subject: Re: paintings as sources I would be one to add that not only should one check more than one source when using a painting, but also look into the common 'embellishments artistes added, certain canons of dress/hieght weight proportion, as well as symbolisms that showed thge personality of the person in paint. Be Well! Sarahj ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 7 Oct 1996 20:20:11 -0700 From: Chris Laning Subject: Pincushions &c PINCUSHIONS: I attend the same Faire as Margo (Hi, Margo!) and I started out with a rather fussy chateleine-like arrangement of scissors, pincushion, thimble, stiletto and needle case hanging from ribbons from my belt. Even just from a practical point of view, this was terrible: they got all tangled up with each other at every opportunity. The last couple of years I've worn a small flat pincushion on a very short (less than two inches) ribbon at my waist, and hanging from that is a longer ribbon with a thimble-cage and a pair of small scissors on it. My excuse for wearing these is that I'm a professional: my character got her start as an embroideress. I find I do use the scissors a lot, since I spend a lot of time at Faire doing needlework, but the pincushion hardly at all unless I lose my needle and need a new one. (Faire gives new meaning to the phrase, "finding a needle in a haystack..."!) If I remember, I tuck the scissors into my pocket (the pocket slit is right next to where they hang) if I'm going to be dancing, running, or anything else that might turn flying-scissors-on-a-ribbon into a hazard. They are also fairly blunt-tipped. * * * * * SPOONS: FWIW, the interpreter at the Folk Museum I visited in Norway (years ago, don't remember which museum) said that each member of, say, a reasonably prosperous farming family, would have his or her own wooden spoon. At the end of the meal, you would lick your spoon clean and stick it under your arm to dry (i.e. place the handle in your armpit, with the spoon sticking out in front of you, then close your arm down on the handle so you can continue working, cleaning, etc. with both hands free). * * * * * NORWEGIAN BUNADER (COSTUMES) I've seen a number of these close up, and for the most part the embroidery appears to be what is commonly called "crewel" -- i.e. an assortment of stitches such as satin stitch, long-and-short stitch, French knots, et cetera, worked in strands of brightly colored wools. Be aware, by the way, that the "bunader" are the "official" folk costumes of Norway. Their origin is in the "folk revival movement" of the first decade or so of the present century. From what I've seen in other sources, they are for the most part reasonable re-constructions and abstracts (and some extrapolations) of the few actual clothes that have survived from various regions. But they are highly standardized, and there is only one "official" costume for each region. When I was there, which was something like 25 years ago (yeeps!) you would only very occasionally -- perhaps one out of a hundred -- see some variation introduced by the individual maker (a white Telemark bodice rather than a red one, for instance). * * * * * Chris (who has publicly vowed that her fellow-servant Justin will be *properly* garbed, complete with the right buttons, a livery badge, and at least one whole shirt that fits, for the Folsom Faire two weeks hence, as he should have been at the beginning of the "big Faire" just ended . . .) ____________________________________________________________ O Chris Laning | + Davis, California ____________________________________________________________ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 8 Oct 1996 02:31:33 GMT From: David Brewer Subject: Re: Stagecraft In message pegisue@U.WASHINGTON.EDU writes: > On Mon, 7 Oct 1996, Lisa Leong wrote: > > > I got that subscription confirmation message too and was wondering whether > > it was something I did inadvertently. I guess not. > > I suspect that everyone on this list got that subscribe message. Please > post the response to the list when you get you answer. The message indicates that one list (ours) got subscribed to another ("stagecraft"). I can only imagine that this could be done by our esteemed list-owner (presumably by accident), or by someone being naughty and forging a message to add one list to another. In any case, I haven't noticed any "stagecraft" mail, so I think our esteemed list-owner quietly sorted it out. -- David Brewer ------------------------------ End of H-COSTUME Digest - 6 Oct 1996 to 7 Oct 1996 ************************************************** From ???@??? Wed Oct 09 10:09:33 1996 Received: from brownvm.brown.edu by mail.math.TU-Berlin.DE with SMTP id AA02356 (5.67b8/IDA-1.5 for ); Wed, 9 Oct 1996 05:06:42 +0100 Message-Id: <199610090406.AA02356@mail.math.TU-Berlin.DE> Received: from BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU by BROWNVM.brown.edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with BSMTP id 0473; Wed, 09 Oct 96 00:02:10 EDT Received: from BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU (NJE origin LISTSERV@BROWNVM) by BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 9999; Wed, 9 Oct 1996 00:02:06 -0400 Date: Wed, 9 Oct 1996 00:01:47 -0400 Reply-To: Historic Costume List Sender: Historic Costume List From: Automatic digest processor Subject: H-COSTUME Digest - 7 Oct 1996 to 8 Oct 1996 To: Recipients of H-COSTUME digests There are 30 messages totalling 1042 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. PLEASE HELP ME WITH MY RESEARCH! (4) 2. Zoot Suits (2) 3. T-tunic 4. Pincushions 5. MRS. RUDOLPH'S BUTTONS: AN EXHIBIT 6. Stagecraft (3) 7. New Book on Tudor/Stuart Era 8. Togas 9. 12th and 13th century clothing 10. sources & misconceptions (2) 11. paintings as a reference 12. Weding Rings 13. Hair Oils (3) 14. togas 15. Standards in group 16. coat linings 17. H-COSTUME Digest - 6 Oct 1996 to 7 Oct 1996 18. H-COSTUME Digest - 23 Sep 1996 to 24 Sep 1996 19. Corset-Adjusting size? 20. FWD:highland dancing costumes 21. Unsubscribe ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 7 Oct 1996 21:58:53 -0700 From: Koehn or Koivisto Subject: PLEASE HELP ME WITH MY RESEARCH! Hello everyone! My name is Mike Koehn and I am an undergraduate student at the University College of the Cariboo in Kamloops, British Columbia. I am currently enrolled in a women's literature class that has presented me with the task of researching the effects of women's clothing in the 17th, 18th, 19th centuries upon their physical and mental health. Anyone out there with information, ie. text and/or pictures that relate to my topic, please email me! I would be eternally grateful for any assistance that could be offered. Thanks! Mike Koehn mrkoehn@netshop.net ================================================================= This message was sent to you by: Skippy the Wonder Squirrel Soon to be on the 'net! Watch this signature file for more info!!! ;-) Mike Koehn Matthew Koivisto ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 8 Oct 1996 05:29:29 UT From: Rebecca Plummer Subject: Zoot Suits Can anyone point me in the right direction for some good, detailed information, and even a pattern (that would be great!!) for a zoot suit? Thanks, Becci ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 8 Oct 1996 10:38:00 BST From: Mrs C S Yeldham Subject: T-tunic Julie Adams wrote: >It may not be the height of fashion for the nobility during all those >periods, but it would still be a "period" style for some of the lower and >middle classes for many countries and eras from 1000 to 1550 or so. Well, I don't know about the earlier period, but this is certainly not true for Western Europe from 1450 on (I have read that shaping garments to the body starts in the 14th century)! The shirt/smock may be T-shaped, but it is usually quite full and gathered (whether sewn or to a drawstring, it is still gathered! and I maintain they are sewn!). As for the upper garments, they are usually quite fitted to the body, and show up to a dozen seam lines on the bodice (through to the lower half of the body) for women. Men's outfits are hose, pourpoint and doublet (plus hat, shoes, belt, knife ...). The hose are closely fitted, almost skin tight, and full-length, from waist to feet (tho' there are different feet patterns). Early in this period the crotch seam is not sewn up, by the 1500's it is and a codpiece is being attached. This is kept up by pointing to the pourpoint, which fits neatly to the body, is sleeved, and may be covered by the doublet. If they were wearing a T-tunic with hose, how would they keep the hose up? >An interesting side to this is that I was doing a costume brochure for a >little Renn faire that wanted to do Germany in the time of Maximillian,as >they were hosting a reproduction of a Guttenberg press. When a close look >is given to Germany in the period of 1490-1510, the T-tunic is still the >predominant garment. There are many variations shown just in this 20 year >span. Especially for the lower and middle classes. The standard peasant >garb is a tunic and trews. This even continues through to mid-16th century >in the lower classes. Well, Germany's not a speciality of mine, but for the rest of Europe this is just not true. I don't know what you mean by 'trews' - the only meaning I know for that is the Scottish term for trousers, which certainly cannot be mistaken for hose. Perhaps what you were seeing were pictures of working men with their hose unpointed or rolled down their legs, wearing their shirts without the upper garments? I have seen pictures showing this, but this is only acceptable for men doing heavy physical labour - in any other circumstances they are improperly dressed. Most of the pictures I know of men working show them wearing hose and some kind of reasonably fitted upper garment! In England, there is plenty of other evidence (like wills) showing that craftsmen and merchants had proper upper garments. As for the idea that middle class men were wearing T-tunics as their upper garment in the 1510s, look at Holbein's paintings of German merchants from the 1520's and later! On the other hand, perhaps I'm misunderstanding what you mean by a T-tunic? The simple T shaped garment with a head opening, coming down to mid-thigh or lower on the leg I'm thinking of is barely adequate for a woman's shift for most of the medieval period. You could describe the houppeland for men and women, or the woman's gown, in that way, but it is much bigger, made of solid materials (eg wool) and lined, sometimes in fur. It is also worn neatly belted, with the gathers arranged, or sewn, symetrically, and I certainly wouldn't describe it as a T-tunic! Caroline puzzled! ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 8 Oct 1996 07:04:57 -0400 From: lukelep@NECA.COM Subject: Re: Zoot Suits >Can anyone point me in the right direction for some good, detailed >information, and even a pattern (that would be great!!) for a zoot suit? > >Thanks, > >Becci Becci, For good photos of zoot suits, my suggestion would be to take a look at books about the Swing Era of the late '30's-early '40's. Some years ago, Time/Life put out an excellent set (20 vols or so) of records and illustrated books about the history of jazz and I think there are some good illustrations there. I hope this is a help. Please email me if you need more info. Lisa ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 8 Oct 1996 11:40:45 GMT From: "Paul C. Dickie" Subject: Re: Pincushions In message cvirtue@WELL.COM writes: > >In message Paul writes: > >> with no-where else to put anything! Pouch (presumably holding spoon - they > >> are big enough) and often a bollock dagger stuck through the gap between > >> pouch and belt, with a knife on the other side, is about the limit. > > > >I'm sure I shall regret asking this, but *what* was a "bollock dagger"? > > To be blunt, the dimensions of the handle, and the guards, which were > spherical, resemble men's genitals. Hence the name. A friend of mine has > a believable looking version; the handle and guard are of a dark wood; the > illuminations could be depicting wood or metal. Thank you -- and thanks to the others who also explained it... For a moment or two -- and perhaps prompted by the description on this thread -- I had wondered if the name might denote their use! o-) < Paul > ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 8 Oct 1996 08:16:59 -0400 From: Joanne Haug Subject: Re: PLEASE HELP ME WITH MY RESEARCH! >the task of researching the effects of women's clothing in the 17th, 18th, >19th centuries upon their physical and mental health. Anyone out there with >information, ie. text and/or pictures that relate to my topic ........................................................ At "Victoriana- Resources for Victorian Living" we have a library with articles about the 19th C. including the following which might help: 1. "Mourning and Funeral Usages," 2. "Is the Red Nose From the Corset or Liquor?" 3. "Beyond the Fringe- Shawls of Paisley Design" Also links to costume related sites and museums can be found at the COSTUME SHOPS PAGE on this site. At "Reflections of the Past, Antique Costume & Textiles" (an online catalog) are images of 19th C. clothing you are welcome to download to illustrate your research, especially alot of corsets (even maternity clothes). Joanne Haug "Victoriana-Resources for Victorian Living" http://www.victoriana.com and "Reflections of the Past, Antique Costume & Textiles" http://www.victoriana.com/antiques voice/fax: (216)835-6924 ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 8 Oct 1996 08:23:36 -0700 From: Leta Hendricks Subject: MRS. RUDOLPH'S BUTTONS: AN EXHIBIT PRESS RELEASE THE OHIO STATE UNIVERSITY =95 325 CAMPBELL HALL 1787 NEIL AVENUE =95=20 COLUMBUS, OHIO 43210 =95 614.292.4220 =95 Fax: 614.292.7859 For Immediate Release Date: October 8, 1996 Contact:Leta Hendricks Phone: 614.292.4220 Fax: 614.292.7859 MRS. RUDOLPH'S BUTTONS: AN EXHIBIT COLUMBUS, OHIO=97 Mrs. Rudolph's Buttons: An Exhibit will feature unique button books,=20 periodicals, and papers from The Ohio State University Libraries and=20 distinctive buttons and related realia from The College of Human=20 Ecology's Historic Costume and Textile Collection. In 1993, a wonderful collection of books and serials about buttons was=20 bequeathed to University Libraries through the estate of Ann W. and=20 Emmanuel D. Rudolph. Mrs. Rudolph was an avid button and book collector,= =20 collecting a variety of botanical related buttons and resources on button= =20 history, manufacturing, and styles. Selected items from both collections= =20 will be on display from September 25 through December 7, 1996 in Sills=20 Exhibit Hall. The Buckeye State Button Society will sponsor, in conjunction with the=20 exhibit, a library lecture by the renowned button author and collector,=20 Ms. Peggy Ann Osborne on Saturday, October 19, 1996 at 2:00 p.m. in Room=20 122 Main Library. Ms. Osborne will discuss the importance of button=20 collecting and button research. The Sills Exhibit Hall is located in the Main Library, 1858 Neil Avenue=20 Mall. The Main Library is open daily except on holidays, Monday -=20 Thursday 7:45 a.m. to midnight; Friday 7:45 a.m. to 10:00 p.m.; Saturday=20 8:00 a.m. - 10:00 p.m.; Sunday 11:00 a.m. - midnight. Parking is=20 available in the Ohio Union Garage, 1780 College Road. Both events are=20 free and open to the public. For further information contact exhibition curator, Leta Hendricks, Head=20 of the Human Ecology Library at 614.292.4220. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 8 Oct 1996 08:59:14 -0400 From: Gale Storm Latzko Subject: Re: Stagecraft On Tue, 8 Oct 1996, David Brewer wrote: > The message indicates that one list (ours) got subscribed to > another ("stagecraft"). I can only imagine that this could be done > by our esteemed list-owner (presumably by accident), or by someone > being naughty and forging a message to add one list to another. One doesn't have to be a list-owner to subscribe a list to another list. However, it is a big, nasty no-no to do so without the list-owners express permission, which in most cases will be denied. I've had to deal with this on other lists I administer (I tend about 35, of which this is not one). No forgery need be involved to accomplish this, either. However, as you said, I haven't seen any stagecraft mail come through, so I expect that our list-owner (who is it these days, anyway?) sorted it out without our knowledge. Cheers! Gale * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * tempest@netaxs.com http://vger.rutgers.edu/~tempest/ "I said 'she must be swift and white And subtly warm and half perverse And sweet like sharp soft fruit to bite, And like a snake's love lithe and fierce.'" -- from A.C. Swinburne's "Felise" "A girl needs a knife." -- The Flash Girls O- ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 8 Oct 1996 09:20:46 -0500 From: Sheryl Nance-Durst Subject: Re: PLEASE HELP ME WITH MY RESEARCH! >... researching the effects of women's clothing in the 17th, 18th, >19th centuries upon their physical and mental health. Anyone out there with >information, ie. text and/or pictures that relate to my topic, please email >me! I would be eternally grateful for any assistance that could be offered. Here's a few titles (mostly 1800's) that I found on OCLC WorldCat database: _The Evils of Tight Lacing_ O.S. Fowler, 1842. _On Taking Great Pains With Fashion_ Susan Pryor, 1990 _The Absurdities of Stays ; and The Evil Effects of Tight Lacing_ Henry Whitfiled, 1845 _Letters to Married Ladies, to Which is Added a Letter on Corsets_ Hugh Smith, 1832 _The Influence of Well-Made Stays on the Health and the Beauty of Women and the Great Injuries Which Ill-Made Ones Inflict_ Rebecca Mills, 1841 _The American Cosstume, or, Woman's Right to Good Health_ Harriet Austin, 1864 _Woman's Dress: Its Moral and Physical Relations_ M.M. Jones, 1865 _The Evils of Fashionable Dress, and How to Dress Healthfully_ John Harvey Kellogg, 1876 _Dress-Reform: a Series of Lectures, Delivered in Boston, on Dress as it Affects the Health of Women_ Abba Louisa Goold Woolson, 1874 _Women's Fashions and Health: 1865-1910_ Ernabeth Elnora Rey, 1986 (thesis) _Nineteenth Century Dress Reform: Changing the Shapes of Women's Lives_ Carolyn Sprinthall, 1986 _Dress Reform Practically and Physiologically Considered_ M. Angeline Merritt, 1852 Sheryl J. Nance-Durst ...one of the secret masters of Kansas City MO Public Library the world: a librarian. They p_sheryl@kcpl.lib.mo.us control information. Don't ever p**s one off. - Spider Robinson, _The Callahan Touch_ (Opinions expressed in this message do not reflect the viewpoint of the Kansas City MO Public Library.) HTH! ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 8 Oct 1996 09:33:29 -0500 From: Sheryl Nance-Durst Subject: Re: PLEASE HELP ME WITH MY RESEARCH! Here's a couple more titles I found: _Three Essays: First, On the Disorders of People of Fashion;........_ S.A.D. Tissot, 1772 _History of the First 35 Years of the Science Costume Movement in the United States of America_ Mary E. Tillotson, 1885. Sheryl J. Nance-Durst ...one of the secret masters of Kansas City MO Public Library the world: a librarian. They p_sheryl@kcpl.lib.mo.us control information. Don't ever p**s one off. - Spider Robinson, _The Callahan Touch_ (Opinions expressed in this message do not reflect the viewpoint of the Kansas City MO Public Library.) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 8 Oct 1996 09:38:59 -0500 From: Sheryl Nance-Durst Subject: New Book on Tudor/Stuart Era I found this new book on one of my library's databases. Sorry it's only partially about costume. Has anyone seen this one yet? Is it any good? ACCESSION: 34046617 AUTHOR: Hull, Suzanne W., 1921- TITLE: Women according to men : the world of Tudor-Stuart women / PLACE: Walnut Creek : PUBLISHER: AltaMira Press, YEAR: 1996 PUB TYPE: Book FORMAT: 239 p. : ill. ; 24 cm. NOTES: Includes bibliographical references (p. 203-227) and index. Introduction : setting the scene -- Rules for wives -- Health habits and household remedies -- Misconceptions on conception -- Care of babies -- Raising daughters -- Preparing food -- Face and fashion -- Conclusion. ISBN: 0761991190 0761991204 (pbk.) SUBJECT: English literature -- Early modern, 1500-1700 -- History and criticism. Women -- England -- History -- Renaissance, 1450-1600 -- Historiography. Women -- England -- History -- 17th century -- Historiography. Women -- England -- Books and reading -- History -- 16th century. Women -- England -- Books and reading -- History -- 17th century. English literature -- Men authors -- History and criticism. Women -- England -- Conduct of life -- Historiography. Women in literature. Sheryl J. Nance-Durst ...one of the secret masters of Kansas City MO Public Library the world: a librarian. They p_sheryl@kcpl.lib.mo.us control information. Don't ever p**s one off. - Spider Robinson, _The Callahan Touch_ (Opinions expressed in this message do not reflect the viewpoint of the Kansas City MO Public Library.) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 8 Oct 1996 15:17:04 +0100 From: Bill Hubbard Subject: Togas The Romans used many different patterns of toga over the period that it was worn (a thousand years?). I think that it developed from a basic cloak early on in the Republic period, went through the "semi-circle" fitting in the early Empire and eventually developed into an odd attentuated "T" form used by the Byzantines. There is a book devoted to the toga - whose details I cannot remember - which was written in the thirties by a woman who analysed all the representations of togas she could find in mosaics, statues and paintings and came up with patterns for the garment throughout its history. I hope it is not too annoying to be told of such a book, but not told of the details you need to find it. At least you know it is out there, so keep looking, but I would suggest good old-fashioned libraries rather than the Net. I made a toga for Tyne & Wear Museum Service when I worked for them. The pattern I used was a long rectangle with one edge rounded off: not a true semi-circle: I think that using a true semi-circle would give you too much width. You need a long long piece to give you the necessary folds. Memory suggests over 20 foot - and probably well-over - because I couldn't lay it all out flat in my work-room to draw the curve. It is definitely a garment that you are conscious of wearing: while the final arrangement is stable, you still have to take care of the way you move. You find yourself adopting that classical pose with your left arm across your chest, as this keeps everything just-so. Hope this helps. Regards, Bill ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 8 Oct 1996 11:13:28 -0400 From: Susan Carroll-Clark Subject: Re: 12th and 13th century clothing Greetings! Finally a question I can say something about! Megan asked about 12th/13th century clothing. This has been my primary period of interest for the past five years, with the emphasis on the 13th century. Most of the sources I'll list talk about both. First, for an overview, have a look at the relevant sections in Milia Davenport's _The Costume Book_. Good pictures, but no patterns or the like (a trend which will continue). Then, move on to a couple of the more in-depth surveys. Cunnington's _Handbook of English Medieval Costume_ and Yarwood's _English Costume_ are good sources. Joan Evans has one covering the same period in France whose name escapes me at the moment. To learn about the fabrics used, you should have a look at Crowfoot et. al.'s _Textiles and Clothing_, which is published by HMSO under the auspices of the Museum of London. Then, after looking at these various sources, look at as many manuscript illuminations and statuary as you can, noting the way the folds fall, where the wrinkles are, how many layers are involved, and so forth. I'll give you a quick overview of 13th century styles. In the early part of the century, the predominate style was a belted gown worn over an undergown, which often showed at the neck and was closed with a pin. As the century wore on, these gowns' sleeves became tighter and tighter below the elbows, and the bust area also became somewhat tighter, making the skirt look as if it was flaring more. Belts were fairly thin and still worn at the waist, with the material blousing over it. Some time about the middle of the century, the surcote for women began to be worn. This was cut much like the gown, but had no sleeves and was worn without a belt. This style came to predominate (in England, at least) by about 1280, although the other style did not disappear. Over the next 3/4 century, the slits in the surcote would gradually get lower, evolving into the sideless surcote in the 14th century. The tight sleeves seen in the 13th century gowns and the trend towards a tightening through the body would also continue into the 14th century, where the lacing or sewing of the sleeves was replaced by buttons. It should be mentioned that while straight cutting is still used in the 13th century (especially at the sleeve heads), experimentation with ways to achieve tighter fits in certain places, including lacing and curved seams, had been on-going since perhaps as early as the 11th century. Men wore similar cuts as women, with the most common length in this century falling about the mid-calf, and slowly rising towards the end. They also adapted the surcote, originally a military fashion, earlier than women. Headgear for women consisted of a variety of veils, wimples, hair netting (you can see surviving examples in the Museum of London book), "fillets" (bands of linen worn about the head, sometimes fluted) and "pillbox-style hats"--small pleated caps worn with a "chinstrap-style" wimple and a hair net. Men wore hats, too, the most common being a simple coif. Hope this helps! Susan Carroll-Clark sclark@chass.utoronto.ca ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 8 Oct 1996 13:28:38 -0400 From: Sue & Ted Subject: Re: sources & misconceptions I have been following this thread for a few days. One of my pet peeves has been used here a number of times. The basic ladies undergarment has been called a chemise. When refering to females in the English speaking countries, the word should be shift (for the 18th C.) In all my primary documentation & many other researchers, we are not finding the use of the French term, only the English. Sources include dictionaries, newspapers, diaries, & inventories. I believe this is another case of wrong info started by secondary sources. As for bodices as outerwear, I agree they need to be banished. In the book I co-edited, Had on and Took with Her, all the women are wearing gowns, shortgowns or jackets. Thanks for hearing my 2 cents, Sue Huesken Rancocas Merchant ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 8 Oct 1996 10:19:43 -0700 From: Karen & Jackie Subject: paintings as a reference With using paintings as references remember that at times it was a fad to appear in the styles of a different era. Look at all the paintings and statues of Napolean as a Roman Emperor. Karen Fouracre (Lady Rachanda of Locksley) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 8 Oct 1996 10:26:51 -0700 From: Karen & Jackie Subject: Weding Rings Can't help you with renissance wedding ring customs. But I do know that currently in Lithuania the wedding ring is worn on the ring finger of the right hand. Karen Fouracre (Lady Rachanda of Locksley) "Spelling is a matter of taste" ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 8 Oct 1996 14:44:11 -0400 From: Ed Safford & Carol Kocian Subject: Re: Hair Oils Kathy Songal wrote, >I was under the impression that women during the Civil War Era used a lot of >hair oil or pomade to dress their hair. This use of oil on the hair to >today's modern eye would make us think the hair was greasy and dirty. They >certainly did not believe in shampooing everyday. There are a lot of recipies & ads for hairdressing oils & pomades. Why do you think they used a lot of it? Photographs from the era do not show the hair as greasy or dirty. >I was wondering--do women re-enactors use oils on their hair today? Personally I use oil, but not just for reenactments. My hair is long (low waist/high butt length) and dry. I need to use oil because my natural hair oils would never make it to the bottom of my hair between shampoos. I use a commercial hair oil, "Botanic Oil" by Nexxus. It probably attracts a bit more dust to my hair, but it doesn't look dirty. At least I hope it doesn't! Reenactors frequently use modern equivalents to period cosmetics. Instead of white lead powder, for example, I use a thin coat of clown white to get the fashionable 18thC pallor. Hair dressings are similar - there may be some herbal formulas that are good to use, but other period recipies could damage the hair. Reenactors who have non-period haircuts or wear hairpieces also use modern gels & hairsprays achieve a period look. One reenactor that I knew tried an experiment in not washing her hair. She was not working & didn't have to worry about an employer's reaction. In the first couple of days to a week, her hair did start to look greasy & dirty. After a while, (with daily brushing) it balanced out, and looked normal again. It was not as shiny as we're used to, with our frequent washing & conditioners, but it didn't look bad, either. -Carol Kocian *^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^* This account is shared by Carol Kocian and Ed Safford. Carol can also be e-mailed at ckocian@epe.org Ed can be reached at ecsaffor@ingr.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 8 Oct 1995 14:48:03 -0400 From: Sharon and/or Mikie Subject: togas If this is a repost, please forgive me! System problems... > >Hello! > >I don't know how much this will help, but it is definately better than wrapping a sheet around the body! > >"It was a shape probably like two large segments of a circle, equal in size, placed with straight edges together. In length it was nearly three times and in width about twice the height of the wearer. The toga was put on by folding it longitudinally about the middle, bunching it into thick folds, and hanging it over the left shoulder so that a third of the total length was suspended in front. The remainder was passed diagonally across the back, brought through under the right arm, and again thrown back over the left shoulder. Because of it's width, it covered nearly the whole of the left arm. Finally, the portion crossing the back was spread out so as to cover the right shoulder blade, and the corner that hung forward over the left shoulder was shortened by drawing the toga up at the breast and letting it fall over the mass of folds. This mass of folds at the breast served as a pocket..." > >The picture shows the cut as being football shaped, with a seam running horizontally along the centre, and another seam running vertically across half the height. (I hope that made sense) Kinda like this: > > > ------ > / \ > / \ > ---------- > \ l / > \ l / > ------ > >Now, of course, there are a million and one interpretations on how this was done, so PLEASE don't send me hate mail on using the wrong method!!! Oh, by the way, this info is straight out of Carl Kohler's "A History of Costume" :) > >Hope it helped! >Sharon > > > > > > > > > ***************************** * * * DON'T MESS WITH TECHIES - * * * * THEY ALL CARRY KNIVES * * * ***************************** ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 8 Oct 1996 16:05:35 -0400 From: Peter Songal <643324@ICAN.NET> Subject: Hair Oils Carol Kocian asked? > There are a lot of recipies & ads for hairdressing oils & pomades. >Why do you think they used a lot of it? Photographs from the era do not >show the hair as greasy or dirty. > Women in the 1860s used pomades and oils to keep their hair in place since they did not have hair sprays and they were trying to achieve a different look than today's blow-dried hairstyles. After looking at photos in Alison Gernsheim's book, Victorian and Edwardian Fashion, it is debatable as to whether the hair appears greasy. Looking at hairstyles in black and white photos and what a person might look like in person could tell the story. I'm old enough to remember men in the 1950s who used a lot of oil to dress their locks and it definitely did look greasy. Modern women who use Nexxus Botanic Oil are not using a product that the 1860s woman used. I tend to think the 1860s women had greasy-looking hair to our modern eye. Maybe someone else can give more insight. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 8 Oct 1996 13:12:09 -0700 From: Heather Rose Jones Subject: Re: Hair Oils On Tue, 8 Oct 1996, Ed Safford & Carol Kocian wrote: > One reenactor that I knew tried an experiment in not washing her > hair. She was not working & didn't have to worry about an employer's > reaction. In the first couple of days to a week, her hair did start to look > greasy & dirty. After a while, (with daily brushing) it balanced out, and > looked normal again. It was not as shiny as we're used to, with our > frequent washing & conditioners, but it didn't look bad, either. Another thing to keep in mind, in relation to this, is that our skin's oil glands are sensitive to what _they_ perceive as a "need" for oil production. In plain English, the more you wash your hair, the more oil will be produced. If you wash your hair on a more "historic" schedule, the oil glands will adjust and produce less. Currently, I wash my hair every day (it's short), and I find that if I skip even one day, it gets very stringy-looking. But back when I had long hair, I washed it twice a week, and it didn't get greasy-looking at anywhere near the same rate. This is a situation where practical experimentation (as above) can produce unexpected conclusions. Heather Rose Jones ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 9 Oct 1996 06:34:26 +1000 From: Sue Dancer Subject: Re: Standards in group I'm not in the SCA but I am a member of a group which does public re-enactments and tries to be authentic about things. 1. How do you enforce standards in a small group? By general consensus from the group and having a costumer (or costumers) who has done a lot of research. 2. Can standards increase in time? Yes they can, with both the medievial history groups I belong to I have seen the standards rise over the time I have been a member. This is due to sharing of research, patterns, the sewing skills of the various members (some are excellent sewers -- including the guys-- but some aren't, we all help each other), and other mundane things such as what fabrics you can use (even to the point of providing samples for some people) and where to buy it cheaply (as most are on a budget). >3. Can you have different standards for newcomers and old-timers? Yes, in both groups there are different standards for newcomers and old-timers. The hierachy of each group knows that you cannot have everything you need all at once. Most of us who have been in the either of the groups for a while tend to have several costumes which show the history of our time in the groups. My first costume started was a basic T-tunic made of cotton/linen, which I have embroidered since to the current costumes I have which are 12th century ladies costumes which are properbly done, right down to hand-sewing on seen sewing (hems, etc.). Mind you some the newcomers have put some of us older ones to shame by having costumes which are fully embroidered and sewn perfectly the first time. 4. How much should the experienced people do to help the newcomers? As much as possible, but encourage people to do their own reasearch. I was when I first joined the two groups. I knew basic stuff, but had some of my misconeptions sorted out. Now I am one of the people to who people come to because of my bothering to learn from people in the group and doing my own reasearch -- mainly due to the fact that one of my characters is a Christian Arab and needs to dress slightly different from the rest of the group. Both groups have handbooks which include basic costumes for both males and females, the list of basic and 'extras' equipment which is desirable, a number of people who are excellent sewers, a store of patterns (both commercial and drafted) and a decent library of assorted costuming books. 5. What do you do when there is someone who you need (he is the only one who can easily fill a specific need of the group) and he won't follow group standards? Only you can answer this one, which is most important to you? Besides no-one is that indespensible. My groups are the Knights Guild of Wessex and Mercia ( which is based in England circa 1150 to 1250)and The Companie of Knights Bachelor (basically same time period but is based in the Holy Lands). Both are Brisbane based groups and several people from other groups have used our costume resources for their own group. I have also found that some of costuming research has come from the SCA when the limited resources of the local libraries has not been up to it. My $0.02 worth -- important to some , but not so important to others. Yours sincerely Sue Dancer Mark & Sue NetMark Consultancies Pty. Ltd. Dancer. mdancer@thehub.com.au Can your PC boot from a CD-ROM? Macintosh can. These comments and questions are solely my doing. My company, colleagues, family, neighbors, gender, sex, race, creed, national origin, medieval reenactment group... bear no responsibility for the accuracy thereof. Further, I apologize in advance and retract any part of this email that in any way offends anyone, anyone's sensibilities, ancestors, cars, favorite ice cream, or points of view. This communique may add to your store of knowledge. It may not. Proceed at your own risk. (Slightly modified from an original by Ed Long). ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 8 Oct 1996 20:25:43 UT From: Rebecca Plummer Subject: coat linings Can anyone please enlighten me as to the regulations on 1860's frock coat linings. I have seen so many different examples such as front facings only, full lining, lining and interlining, quilted lining, and chest padding. Any insight would be greatly appreciated as to types, fabrics and when one was used over another. Thanks again, Becci ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 8 Oct 1996 13:33:03 -0700 From: The Polsons Subject: Re: H-COSTUME Digest - 6 Oct 1996 to 7 Oct 1996 Caroline said: >I would be fascinated to have more details on the suggestion Holbein made >up some of the blackwork shown in his paintings I'm a needleworker, and while I have not taken up blackwork (yet... that's my next project), I have enough of an idea how this very simple form of needlework operates that I feel I can say that SO WHAT if he made up his own patterns? If you're stitching a geometric pattern on linen, you can come up with ANY pattern yourself and *voila* it's a geometric blackwork pattern on linen. It's impossible, as far as I know, for Holbein to have "made up" (as in "invented wrongly") unworkable blackwork patterns in any event. So stop splitting hairs! (Or threads?) 8-) Then Sally Ann said: >Re the discussion about belts/bags around the waist - these are, I think, >scrip bags. There are numerous representations of them in paintings of the >time. I believe they were worn by lower classes or for traveling. I've >seen no reference to the way they were constructed but most seem to have a >net effect on the outside. I think they were actually a long net which >could be spread out flat, covered with a cloth in which to place objects or >a bundle of belongings. If you then take the two ends and pull the net to >its fullest extent it will (with some coaxing) roll itself up so that the >two ends can be tied around the waist. A net could be woven to perform this >function but with a more tailored shape. Yes, I've seen these a lot in Books of Days paintings of French peasants. I'd also like to add that small items may also have been carried in a woman's pocket, underneath her outer skirts. A friend of mine showed me how they work at a recent medieval/renaissance event: It's a small sack, the size and shape of a large skirt pocket from today, that is tied around the waist and under the outer skirt, which has a slit in the side for your hand. Simply reach through the slit, into the pocket (which also has a slit), and your small belongings are safe and hidden from prying eyes (like those of itinerant painters...) ;> And as for references, the BEST book I've ever found was a 1/2 pricer at Barnes & Noble that I almost passed by: "A Medieval Book of Seasons" by Marie Collins & Virginia Davis, 1992 Harper Collins Publishers. If you're interested in 15th & 16th century European costume, GET THIS BOOK! Then Gail said: >What is NOT period -- for ANY period, as far as I can tell -- is the >ubiquitous (around here, anyway) t-shaped tunic made out of whatever material >happened to be on sale last week and trimmed with metallic trim at the hem, >sleeves, and (sometimes) neck. It's certainly an easy garment to make, and a >good way to get started. But many people wear these things serenely for >years, under the impression that they would look great in almost any country >in almost any century. Sigh. Thank you sistah!! Amen! 8-) (And you'll note that I did NOT quote the ENTIRE post to which I was responding! The list would be WAY shorter for us all if we would please remember to use quotes only as needed for context!!! Thanks.) ********************************************** Willow Polson....willow@recreating-history.com Recreating History magazine ..."Historic Crafts, Cooking, and Clothing"... ----> http://www.recreating-history.com <----- Call us toll free! 1-(888) REENACT (733-6228) ********************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 8 Oct 1996 17:00:55 -0400 From: Morigianna@AOL.COM Subject: Re: H-COSTUME Digest - 23 Sep 1996 to 24 Sep 1996 In a message dated 96-09-25 01:04:46 EDT, you write: << I always had a devil of a time getting the darn seams straight. It's reassuring to know that it wasn't just me. I figured that there must be some trick to it that I didn't know about. >> I thought the whole point was as you got up from the chair you reached back and straightened the seam along your leg with "draping fingers" to draw the gentlemens eye to your curvy leg. Maybe I watch to many movies.................Misty ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 8 Oct 1996 17:00:56 -0400 From: Morigianna@AOL.COM Subject: Corset-Adjusting size? I had a custom victorian corset made to fit my VERy hourglass shape and it is wonderful alas, I have lost weight and now it meets in the back and I can still breathe freely! I need to make it smaller. How eould be the best way to do this. I really don't want to pay for another one as it took almost 9 months for this one. I don't know if taking in the seams on the sides or back would help? Any suggestions? Misty ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 8 Oct 1996 16:44:46 -0500 From: "Sara J. Davitt" Subject: Re: Stagecraft Hello all! If you read far enough into the mailing, there was a section devoted to H-Costume, and F-costume, etc... I would assume that we are collectively know as "stagecraft", and that the letter was sent out to Everyone on all the lists, as partially an advertisement, partially, to save mailing. my 2 cents, Sarahj ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 8 Oct 1996 19:06:17 -0400 From: Lauren Podolak Subject: FWD:highland dancing costumes >Date: Tue, 08 Oct 1996 01:56:36 -0700 >From: Death Squirrel >Organization: Satanic Rodentia, Inc. >MIME-Version: 1.0 >To: milieux@digital.net >Subject: highland dancing costumes >X-URL: http://ddi.digital.net/~milieux/costume.html > >Hello, >My name is ALison Starnes and I have recently been involved in a venture >to make a costume for Scottish >highland dancing. I have been completely unable to find any pictures of >the "Scottish National Costume", so we >sort of made up a pattern according to what we were told it looked like. >I would like to find more information >on this subject, so if anyone has pictures of any of the female dancing >costumes, please let me know at: > >astarnes@gladstone.uoregon.edu > >Thanks, >Alison > ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 8 Oct 1996 19:21:14 -0700 From: Steven Geringer Subject: Unsubscribe Please take me off the subscription list. Thanks, Susan in CA ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 8 Oct 1996 19:47:31 -0700 From: Joan M Jurancich Subject: Re: sources & misconceptions At 01:28 PM 10/8/96 -0400, Sue Huesken wrote: >I have been following this thread for a few days. >One of my pet peeves has been used here a number of times. >The basic ladies undergarment has been called a chemise. >When refering to females in the English speaking countries, >the word should be shift (for the 18th C.) [snip] And in the 16th Century in England, the same women's garment was called a smock. Also, the word 'corset' is, as far as I can determine, a 19th Century term for what would have been called 'a stiffened pair of bodies' in the later 16th Century, and 'stays' in the 18th. Aren't period inventories fun! Regards, Joan Jurancich joanj@quiknet.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 8 Oct 1996 23:42:19 -0400 From: nancy m moeur Subject: Re: Stagecraft The "Welcome to the Stagecraft List" message that h-costume received is the message anyone who subscribes to the Stagecraft list gets. As the message didn't come from the Stagecraft address, and I seem to remember someone posting an apology for having posted it in the first place (it seems they had forwarded their personal copy), I don't think we're in any danger of receiving unwanted mail. Also, I'm subscribed to the Stagecraft list already, and I haven't been receiving duplicate messages. (For those who are interested, it is a mailing list dealing with production/technical work in educational and professional theatre.) Enough said. back to lurking and learning from those who know so much more than i. -nmm nancy marie moeur 00nmm@williams.edu (finger 00nmm@colrain.williams.edu) ---- are you implying that i'm a demon beast? (-jon) ------------------------------ End of H-COSTUME Digest - 7 Oct 1996 to 8 Oct 1996 ************************************************** From ???@??? Thu Oct 10 10:10:15 1996 Received: from brownvm.brown.edu by mail.math.TU-Berlin.DE with SMTP id AA09251 (5.67b8/IDA-1.5 for ); Thu, 10 Oct 1996 05:07:23 +0100 Message-Id: <199610100407.AA09251@mail.math.TU-Berlin.DE> Received: from BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU by BROWNVM.brown.edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with BSMTP id 7778; Thu, 10 Oct 96 00:01:50 EDT Received: from BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU (NJE origin LISTSERV@BROWNVM) by BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 5054; Thu, 10 Oct 1996 00:01:45 -0400 Date: Thu, 10 Oct 1996 00:01:34 -0400 Reply-To: Historic Costume List Sender: Historic Costume List From: Automatic digest processor Subject: H-COSTUME Digest - 8 Oct 1996 to 9 Oct 1996 To: Recipients of H-COSTUME digests There are 25 messages totalling 1258 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. Holbein and Blackwork 2. T-tunic 3. Past Impressionss Home Page 4. Paintings as documentation 5. Things they didn't care about... 6. Eleanora of Toledo stockings (2) 7. Paintings, etc. 8. H-COSTUME Digest - 7 Oct 1996 to 8 Oct 1996 9. T-Tunic 10. Stagecraft 11. Holbein 12. Patterns 13. 14th-15th C Italian costume (2) 14. Hair Oils (2) 15. MRS. RUDOLPH'S BUTTONS: AN EXHIBIT 16. Early Period Fitted Garments (4) 17. Still asking for research assistance!!!! 18. clothes & styles 19. Monk's habit ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 9 Oct 1996 15:11:09 +1000 From: Sarah Randles Subject: Holbein and Blackwork >Caroline said: >>I would be fascinated to have more details on the suggestion Holbein made >>up some of the blackwork shown in his paintings I think this is a specious argument. I have been conducting some in depth research into the transmission of blackwork and other embroidery and lace patterns for a conference paper (BTW, thanks to all who helped with my earlier plea for material, I'm still interested in period sources). One of the things that emerges as soon as one starts to examine the primary sources, in the shape of both printed pattern books and extant pieces, is that what we have now represents only a part of the corpus of printed patterns and works. Many of the extant embroidery pieces do not have a counterpart in the printed patterns, although a number do. This suggests one of two things - either we have lost the pattern books which transmitted these designs (very likely), or embroiderers made up patterns (very likely). Some of the embroideries depicted in contemporary paintings have counterparts in extant pattern books and pieces, many do not. The same argument holds. Therefore, to suggest that Holbein or any other painter invented patterns, on the basis that the patterns have no extant corrollary in pattern books or embroideries, is clearly unfounded. The only argument for such painterly invention which would be plausible is if the patterns depicted were unworkable. This clearly isn't the case with the various Holbein portraits. They may not all be reversible, but as has been correctly pointed out, sixteenth century blackwork need not be reversible. The majority of the extant examples and many of those depicted in pattern books are not. and Willow said >I'm a needleworker, and while I have not taken up blackwork (yet... that's >my next project), I have enough of an idea how this very simple form of >needlework operates that I feel I can say that SO WHAT if he made up his >own patterns? If you're stitching a geometric pattern on linen, you can >come up with ANY pattern yourself and *voila* it's a geometric blackwork >pattern on linen. I almost agree with this, but not quite. I think there is a period aesthetic involved. While many made up patterns would be perfectly acceptable, there will be some that are not, depending on the time and place. For example, the patterns produced in this sort of embroidery are two dimensional. The depiction of 3D boxes, however geometrical would not fit the aesthetic. Although the depiction of plants and some animals (I'm remembering a lovely fill pattern of repeating snails) is common, others would be inappropriate. (I contemplate, with some amusement, the repeating cow motif.) And for those who asked, when my paper is finished, I will make it available electronically, unless that contravenes copyright if it is published. Sarah ****************************************************************************** Sarah Randles email: s-randles@adfa.oz.au English Department phone: 06 268 8898 University College ADFA fax: 06 268 8899 Canberra ACT 2601 AUSTRALIA ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 8 Oct 1996 22:06:46 -0700 From: Julie Adams Subject: Re: T-tunic >Julie Adams wrote: > >>It may not be the height of fashion for the nobility during all those >>periods, but it would still be a "period" style for some of the lower and >>middle classes for many countries and eras from 1000 to 1550 or so. Notice I used the word "many" countries--not "all" countries and qualified _lower and middle_ classes.... Caroline wrote: >Well, I don't know about the earlier period, but this is certainly not true >for Western Europe from 1450 on (I have read that shaping garments to the >body starts in the 14th century)! The shirt/smock may be T-shaped, but it >is usually quite full and gathered (whether sewn or to a drawstring, it is >still gathered! and I maintain they are sewn!). I was describing the outer garment layers, some of which are T-tunics split in the front like a coat. From my research I would say that _lower_ class shirts are _not_usually_ "quite full and gathered". They are usually rather thrifty on fabric. Full baggy sleeves are impractical when working and can be constricting under tight sleeves. Working class clothing is often vastly different than the fashionable. I evaluated HUNDREDS of examples, woodcuts, paintings, relief, ceramics, embroidery for my little Maximillian costume guide. While there are other styles out there, and far more popular, the T-tunic is still with us in the mid-16th century in mainland Europe. > As for the upper garments, >they are usually quite fitted to the body, and show up to a dozen seam lines >on the bodice (through to the lower half of the body) for women. Look at older women and maternity garb. Servants. I think you will find that many of the garments are cut after a T-tunic with some gores. T-tunics can be fitted fairly closely without extra seams. There are MANY ways of cutting bodices, but the T-tunic cut (sleeves and bodice in one, with no shoulder seams) is used well into the 16th c. for women as well as men. Yes, your example is out there too, but it is not alone. C: > Men's >outfits are hose, pourpoint and doublet (plus hat, shoes, belt, knife ...). >The hose are closely fitted, almost skin tight, and full-length, from waist >to feet (tho' there are different feet patterns). Early in this period the >crotch seam is not sewn up, by the 1500's it is and a codpiece is being >attached. This is kept up by pointing to the pourpoint, which fits neatly >to the body, is sleeved, and may be covered by the doublet. If they were >wearing a T-tunic with hose, how would they keep the hose up? I think you are generalizing here about what is fashionable. Yes the style you describe was worn, usually worn by the dapper young dandy, but I have seen T-tunics in the same woodcut worn by older peasants too. Not all hose were closely fitted or held up by the pourpoint. Many in Europe were full hose in the later period. They were held up by strings which drew in the waists. The codpiece was also sometimes just attached to the hose themselves. J: >>An interesting side to this is that I was doing a costume brochure for a >>little Renn faire that wanted to do Germany in the time of Maximillian,as >>they were hosting a reproduction of a Guttenberg press. When a close look >>is given to Germany in the period of 1490-1510, the T-tunic is still the >>predominant garment. There are many variations shown just in this 20 year >>span. Especially for the lower and middle classes. The standard peasant >>garb is a tunic and trews. This even continues through to mid-16th century >>in the lower classes. C: >Well, Germany's not a speciality of mine, but for the rest of Europe this is >just not true. I don't know what you mean by 'trews' - the only meaning I >know for that is the Scottish term for trousers, which certainly cannot be >mistaken for hose. Perhaps what you were seeing were pictures of working >men with their hose unpointed or rolled down their legs, wearing their >shirts without the upper garments? I have seen pictures showing this, but >this is only acceptable for men doing heavy physical labour - in any other >circumstances they are improperly dressed. Most of the pictures I know of >men working show them wearing hose and some kind of reasonably fitted upper >garment! But the Holy Roman Empire of the era 1490 -1600 is a specialty of mine. I can only say that if you were here in my house in my library, I could show you hundreds of examples of T-tunics well into the 16th c. in not only Germany, but the Lowlands, Spain, Italy, eastern Europe and more. If you ever get near Southern CA, USA, come on by! Like I said in my original post, T-tunics were not the "fashionable" things to wear, but they were out there. Mostly worn by men, but there are a few worn by women too. You even see women's bodices cut in one piece as fitted T cut with sleeves built-in, but with the skirts attached separately. There is a huge mix of styles in the lower classes. Check out the background characters in various Breugel paintings (1550s/1560s), and you'll still occasionally find a few lurking in the backgrounds. It took me a while to find some that were in common sources besides the Bruegels, but there are examples of some of the woodcuts by Barthel Beham and others in Peasants Warriors and Wives, Popular Imagery in the Reformation by Kieth Moxey. Even still these examples are just a few of the ones I've found. When I say trews, I mean tight trousers or very loose hose. These are typical for the peasantry who did not always wear very well-fitted hose. C >In England, there is plenty of other evidence (like wills) showing that >craftsmen and merchants had proper upper garments. As for the idea that >middle class men were wearing T-tunics as their upper garment in the 1510s, >look at Holbein's paintings of German merchants from the 1520's and later! Those were UPPER middle class merchants! Some were much weathier than the nobility. There are many many examples of lower middle class, clerks, and peasants wearing a t-tunic like garment. But there are very few examples of lower class English anything of that period in comparison to Europe. Just can't compare. I see that the lower classes often followed fashion, sometimes up to 100 years late. >On the other hand, perhaps I'm misunderstanding what you mean by a T-tunic? >The simple T shaped garment with a head opening, coming down to mid-thigh or >lower on the leg I'm thinking of is barely adequate for a woman's shift for >most of the medieval period. You could describe the houppeland for men and >women, or the woman's gown, in that way, but it is much bigger, made of >solid materials (eg wool) and lined, sometimes in fur. It is also worn >neatly belted, with the gathers arranged, or sewn, symetrically, and I >certainly wouldn't describe it as a T-tunic! > >Caroline >puzzled! T-Tunic is cut with sleeves and body in one piece like a "T", but it can have gores as variations and flare at either the sleeves or the skirt. T-tunics can be made of anything, including solid materials or even lined, and still be T-tunics, its a description of the cut of the upper body, not the materials. Most houpelandes are not T-tunics because the sleeves are normally cut separately and inset or cut as raglan. A T-tunic can be as short as the hip or to the ground. The opening can be a hole for the head, v-neck, key-hole or off-set key, or can be split down the front. It can have a walking split in the skirt sides or front or none at all. Houpelandes bodies are usually cut as 1/4 circles at least, starting at the breast, to give the fullness for the set pleats. A T-tunic is more likely to be cut straight down from the armscye and then flare at the waist, or flare gradually down the length. A T-tunic is a perfectly legitimate garment for medieval and early Renn.lower classes, its just so very often done in such ghastly fabrics and trims! Julie Adams ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 9 Oct 1996 05:26:45 UT From: Rebecca Plummer Subject: Past Impressionss Home Page I have just made a lot of improvements to my page (although I still have a lot to work on). I welcome anyone to view it and give me any suggestions (CONSTRUCTIVE not DESTRUCTIVE criticism please) as to my design, and also as to the clothing I am offering. Thank you very much. Rebecca A. Plummer www.geocities.com/Broadway/3379 ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 8 Oct 1996 22:37:29 -0700 From: don and carolyn richardson Subject: Re: Paintings as documentation R.L. Shep wrote: > > The Piti Palace in Florence has become interested in showing costumes. > I don't know if they have a permanent display, but they have put on some > really good exhibitions. Most museums in Italy have have good costume > collections keep them in storage (alas). > > ~!~ R.L. Shep Definitely, Alas! And several other oaths I can think of. But the Pitti didn't have any costumes on display when I was in Italy in the late 80's - Guess I'll have to arrange another trip to Florence. Tetchubah ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 8 Oct 1996 23:07:29 -0700 From: Chris Laning Subject: Things they didn't care about... Caroline Yeldham wrote, >I have made a pair of cuffs using the >Kunsthistoriche picture as an original - and it is impossible to make them >fully double-sided - there are some motifs which are separate from the rest >of the blackwork (which means you have to link the thread in somehow). >However, this may mean that this is a modern requirement, and they were >less bothered about neat backs than modern embroiderers are (someone on the >list has said similar things about the back of samplers). I don't know if you have seen a book called _An Anonymous Woman: Her Work_ by (root around hunting for my copy...darn!) It's an analysis of an early 17th-century sampler, with patterns in double-sided blackwork (some in two or more colors) and in variations of cross stitch. The Great Revelation to me on this one was that the author matter-of-factly states that the fabric used has 17 threads to the centimeter in one direction and 22 in the other. *It is NOT square.* And the sampler's maker apparently didn't care in the least: she worked the patterns in every case to the counted thread, despite the fact that they look squashed, and would undoubtedly have looked squashed the other way if she'd turned a corner. Maybe this is another thing that we fuss about a lot (paying extra for special "square" linen for counted thread work...) that needleworkers back then didn't think was a big deal at all. ____________________________________________________________ O Chris Laning | + Davis, California ____________________________________________________________ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 8 Oct 1996 23:07:50 -0700 From: Chris Laning Subject: Eleanora of Toledo stockings I'm about to embark on as close a reproduction as I can make (with a few cautious, carefully thought out adaptations) of the knitted silk stockings from Eleanora of Toledo's tomb (1562). And I'm wondering if anyone has more information or references that I haven't found. I do have Richard Rutt's _A History of Hand Knitting_, which has a large photo that is clear enough to count stitches and knit from, at least for the parts it shows (the upper half or so). Janet Arnold also has a couple of pictures, with one showing the heel turning, in _Patterns of Fashion: The cut and construction of clothes for men and women c1560-1620_. I'd like to know of any other references that give additional information. In particular, neither author I've seen says anything about the silk thread of which the stockings were made, except that it was probably crimson but has now faded. I'd be interested if anyone knows of information on its thickness and texture, how it was spun and plied and from what sort of silk fiber. Rutt simply says it is "spun silk," which I assume means it is not "reeled" silk. I have a couple of samples of various fibers to experiment with, but it would make the search for suitable silk thread a little easier if I knew more about what I was looking for. ...and yes, I *know* this is going to be an expensive project if I really do it in silk . [P.S. O tame ook of AlterYears: do you carry silk threads?] ____________________________________________________________ O Chris Laning | + Davis, California ____________________________________________________________ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 9 Oct 1996 00:07:00 -0700 From: don and carolyn richardson Subject: Paintings, etc. Please, I wasn't trying to imply the Holbein made up *all* his embroidery patterns - my point was that nearly all artists of the period tended to do some "ad lib" work with their portraiture. I mentioned Holbein specifically because several past posts quoted him as the *exception* to this practice. But I don't think he was above "gilding the lilly" when it suited him (i.e. like with Anne of Cleves' portrait). Yes, Henry called her "that Flanders mare" when he first saw her in person, but I don't think her opinion of him was too high either. She did agree to a speedy divorce. Several people have mentioned in past posts that paintings shouldn't be used as primary source material, particularly when the subject is religious or allegorical in nature. That may be *partially* true, but you need to keep in mind that what they saw as allegory isn't exactly what we think of as allegory. It wasn't unusual for the Renaissance artists, particularly the Italians, to paint a portrait using an allegorical reference, but very little else in the way of allegory. Thus, you have innumerable "Flora" portraits where the only thing that designates the sitter as Flora is the flower in her hand. Any woman with an asp in her grasp becomes Cleopatra, if there's a swan with her she becomes Lida, and add a shower of gold coins and she's Danae, even if she's wearing High Italian Renaissance clothing. Just because they were using an allegory in the painting doesn't mean the clothing painted isn't accurate as to what the sitter was wearing. Likewise, just because the painting is a straight portrait doesn't mean the sitter was wearing any such garment. Or even looked like the resulting portrait. How many times have you heard the story that Mona Lisa is a composite of several sitters? Couldn't her clothes likewise be a composite, or completely fictional, or real? You need to know your artist before you can judge what his/her predilictions for accuracy were, and the circumstances of the paintings. To dismiss the clothes in a painting from the period just because the main theme of the painting is allegorical or religious would mean you'd have to exclude about 95% of the paintings from the Italian Renaissance since straight portraiture was a small portion of the paintings produced. But as we are probably all aware, the paintings of the period typically had your every day folk in the painting even if there was a religious theme to it. Think of Raphael's "School of Athens" where Socrates and Plato hold center stage in Raphael's impression of Greek clothing, but they're surrounded by young men in Italian Ren clothing (including Raphael's self portrait). Or the newly restored "Christ at the Wedding" (sorry, I've forgotten the artist) where if you took the painting as gospel (okay, that's a bad pun) you'd think Christ lived in the 15th Century judging from the wedding guests. Tetchubah ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 9 Oct 1996 09:48:29 GMT From: TEDDY Subject: Re: H-COSTUME Digest - 7 Oct 1996 to 8 Oct 1996 Hello all, several bit's I want to share my opinions about. Hopefully I've successfully snipped my quotes down to the bit's I'm answering, appologies if I haven't done it right. Mrs C S Yeldham wrote > Subject: T-tunic > You could describe the houppeland for men and women, or the woman's > gown, in that way, but it is much bigger, made of solid materials > (eg wool) and lined, sometimes in fur. It is also worn neatly > belted, with the gathers arranged, or sewn, symetrically, and I > certainly wouldn't describe it as a T-tunic! I beg to differ here Caroline. I would describe both, and many many other garments, as VARIATIONS on the T-tunic. Theu may be fuller in places, or more fitted in others, but, if you lay them out flat they form variations on a "T" shape. > From: Ed Safford & Carol Kocian > Subject: Re: Hair Oils > One reenactor that I knew tried an experiment in not washing her > hair. She was not working & didn't have to worry about an employer's > reaction. In the first couple of days to a week, her hair did start to look > greasy & dirty. After a while, (with daily brushing) it balanced out, and > looked normal again. It was not as shiny as we're used to, with our > frequent washing & conditioners, but it didn't look bad, either. I'm just approaching ten weeks without washing mine (it's mid-back leangth and of the type shampoo manufacturers refer to as "greasy"). About the 3-4 weeks stage it was HORRIBLE, then started to even out. Most of the time it looks fairly good, and I do rinse it with plain water every so often, but you should see the state of my hairbrush after I've brushed it!! Ugh! Maggie Percival is conducting the same "experiment", several weeks ahead of me. How's it going Maggie? > From: Heather Rose Jones > Subject: Re: Hair Oils > Another thing to keep in mind, in relation to this, is that our skin's oil > glands are sensitive to what _they_ perceive as a "need" for oil > production. In plain English, the more you wash your hair, the more oil > will be produced. If you wash your hair on a more "historic" schedule, the > oil glands will adjust and produce less. That's the result I'm hoping for, and it seems to be working (much to my surprise). The natural curl is more pronounced too!! > From: The Polsons > Subject: Re: H-COSTUME Digest - 6 Oct 1996 to 7 Oct 1996 > ... SO WHAT if he made up his own patterns? If you're stitching a > geometric pattern on linen, you can come up with ANY pattern > yourself and *voila* it's a geometric blackwork pattern on linen. > It's impossible, as far as I know, for Holbein to have "made up" > (as in "invented wrongly") unworkable blackwork patterns in any > event. So stop splitting hairs! (Or threads?) 8-) I'll go along with that. IMHO, unimaginative people would have copied existing patterns, imaginative ones may have got bored with them and adapted them or made up their own. Incidently, I hold this oppinion about variations in styles of dress. In any given period (I believe) there would have been those who refused to wear the current fashions as they didn't like them, they didn't suit the individual, the individual thought they looked plain stoopid, or the individual LOVED the style of sleeves/bodice/whatever of her grandmother's old dress. I use myself as an example. I LOVED flared trousers and bell-bottoms when they were first "in", and didn't stop wearing them when they went "out". I know/know of other (non costumers) who stick to styles they like rather than the current trends... MY opinion only folks. > From: Morigianna@AOL.COM > Subject: Re: H-COSTUME Digest - 23 Sep 1996 to 24 Sep 1996 > > In a message dated 96-09-25 01:04:46 EDT, you write: > > << I always had a devil of a time getting the darn seams straight. It's > reassuring to know that it wasn't just me. I figured that there > must be some trick to it that I didn't know about. >> > > I thought the whole point was as you got up from the chair you reached back > and straightened the seam along your leg with "draping fingers" to draw the > gentlemens eye to your curvy leg. Maybe I watch to many > movies.................Misty Sounds right to me. Speaking personally, I NEVER had any problems getting my stocking seams straight, or keeping them that way, and I was in the habit of wearing VERY short skirts, so a LOT of seam showed. Perhaps mens legs are a better shape for this than womens..? Well, I think that's enough from me Teddy teddy1@mdx.ac.uk Central Bibliographic Unit Middlesex University Tel No. (0181) 362 6405 If a costume's worth making, it's worth making well enough to wear for every-day ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 9 Oct 1996 10:21:00 BST From: Mrs C S Yeldham Subject: T-Tunic Julie Adams has written a long piece justifying her position. Her definition of a T-tunic is interesting, and different from mine. The key to hers seems to be the body cut in one and the sleeves cut in the same piece as the body, which is a pretty wide definition. I disagree that *anything* cut through the body can be defined as a T-tunic! I would just point out that most of my re-enactment is lower orders, so I concentrate on pictures showing them, not the nobility, difficult as that is. I too have looked at hundreds of pictures and she seems to be seeing things I have never seen, or we are seeing the same things and giving them different labels! I would not call a woman's bodice with sleeves built-in sleeves but separate skirts a T-tunic, and unless the sleeves have the characteristic folds you get with a T-tunic, I would assume the sleeves seams were there in the original but obscured in the picture. Most of the overgarments, cut down the front, are also waisted - again, not a T-tunic style. However, she is also seeing things I have never seen, and don't believe existed in the 15th and 16th century. For example, I have never seen a gathered waist on a pair of hose (tho' you do see them on braies - perhaps that is what she means) - I don't think gathered waists *ever* came in for men! Even fashionable wear in the late 16th and 17th century, when men's hose became very full, is pointed to the upper garment! Julie also mentions the idea of clerks wearing T-tunics, and I really believe she is just misinterpreting what she has seen here - clerks wear gowns, usually black and full-length, full and gathered (sewn gathers). I have rarely seen a pair of hose, even on elderly working men, that were loose enough to be called trousers. In fact it is remarkable how well fitted most hose were, given how difficult they are to make. IMHO you don't get anything like that until the mid-16th century, and then they are knee-length, called slops and worn by sailors. Again, IMHO, I am always impressed at how well and solidly made clothes of this period are, and to call them T-tunics is a misnomer. To encourage anyone looking at this period (1450's on) to wear a T-tunic, or even think in terms of a T-tunic, is to do them and the group they are joining a disservice, including the SCA. As someone active in English 15th and 16th century re-enactment, both in England and on the Continent, I can assure you that anything like that will not be acceptable in any group I know! I will however, accept that I overstated how loose shirts and smocks can be - some of them are quite meanly cut, but it seems to depend on the fabric chosen - the thicker the fabric, the meaner the cut. Caroline ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 9 Oct 1996 06:27:19 -0300 From: Margaret Rae Carignan Subject: Re: Stagecraft And besides, is there something wrong with Holbein designing blackwork patterns? Do they somehow lose validity because he "made them up?" What about his jewellery patterns? I think I must be missing the point again! ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 9 Oct 1996 11:23:00 BST From: Mrs C S Yeldham Subject: Holbein Please, it wasn't me who said Holbein made up blackwork patterns, it was Tetchubah, I just asked for the evidence! I would like to see it, more on the grounds of the kinds of evidence aduced! I would be inclined to doubt anyone could prove it - you would have to have the originals of all the garments he painted to do so! This is also the case in the idea that painters added lace or jewellery to garments to make them look better (unless it was clearly a later painter or a later style of lace or jewellery). If it was done when the painting was made, and it was not an allegory, we can at least be sure it was not outlandish to the viewer (and the person who paid for the picture). BTW, on the subject of allegories, in my experience the problem is not that people rule out acceptable clothing on the grounds the source is an allegorical picture, it's more usual that they ignore the allegory, or which elements are allegorical (eg in pictures of saints/Mary and child with the donor of the picture realistically painted), and cite it as a source for something they want to wear. Second BTW - there are few English lower order painted sources for the late 15th and 16th centuries, which is why we have to look to the continent, and weigh that evidence carefully! Even some of the accepted sources were painted by foreign painters, so have to be handled with care - eg the Wedding at Bermondsey. Caroline ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 9 Oct 1996 12:18:00 BST From: Mrs C S Yeldham Subject: Patterns Hello Teddy (didn't we meet at Eastercon?) >Mrs C S Yeldham wrote >> Subject: T-tunic > >> You could describe the houppeland for men and women, or the woman's >> gown, in that way, but it is much bigger, made of solid materials >> (eg wool) and lined, sometimes in fur. It is also worn neatly From ???@??? Thu Oct 10 10:10:15 1996 Received: from brownvm.brown.edu by mail.math.TU-Berlin.DE with SMTP id AA09251 (5.67b8/IDA-1.5 for ); Thu, 10 Oct 1996 05:07:23 +0100 Message-Id: <199610100407.AA09251@mail.math.TU-Berlin.DE> Received: from BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU by BROWNVM.brown.edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with BSMTP id 7778; Thu, 10 Oct 96 00:01:50 EDT Received: from BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU (NJE origin LISTSERV@BROWNVM) by BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 5054; Thu, 10 Oct 1996 00:01:45 -0400 Date: Thu, 10 Oct 1996 00:01:34 -0400 Reply-To: Historic Costume List Sender: Historic Costume List From: Automatic digest processor Subject: H-COSTUME Digest - 8 Oct 1996 to 9 Oct 1996 To: Recipients of H-COSTUME digests >> belted, with the gathers arranged, or sewn, symetrically, and I >> certainly wouldn't describe it as a T-tunic! >I beg to differ here Caroline. I would describe both, and many many >other garments, as VARIATIONS on the T-tunic. Theu may be fuller in >places, or more fitted in others, but, if you lay them out flat they >form variations on a "T" shape. In that sense any garment cut in one piece from neck to floor could be described as a T-tunic. The key is whether it is a helpful term to use in talking or thinking about the garment, and I don't think its a very helpful way to think of the garments when making them, and positively dangerous when describing them to a new costumer! > Subject: Re: Hair Oils I have very dry curly hair, and my record for not washing my hair was 4 weeks (before itchy scalp did for me) and no-one noticed! Some time ago the Body Shop stocked Macassar oil (the genuine stuff). I loved it, a few drops gave my hair a glossy gleam. >> From: The Polsons >> Subject: Re: H-COSTUME Digest - 6 Oct 1996 to 7 Oct 1996 > >> ... SO WHAT if he made up his own patterns? If you're stitching a >> geometric pattern on linen, you can come up with ANY pattern >> yourself and *voila* it's a geometric blackwork pattern on linen. >> It's impossible, as far as I know, for Holbein to have "made up" >> (as in "invented wrongly") unworkable blackwork patterns in any >> event. So stop splitting hairs! (Or threads?) 8-) >I'll go along with that. IMHO, unimaginative people would have >copied existing patterns, imaginative ones may have got bored with >them and adapted them or made up their own. Yes but ... A modern person making up a blackwork pattern is less 'steeped' in the visual cues of the 16th century, so there will be differences between what a 20th century and a 16th century person will invent. That's fine for ordinary use, but not if you are saying it is what a 16th century person would have embroidered. Holbein might well have developed patterns for use by embroiderers, but it is also possible that in painting a pretty pattern he could have come up with a design that an embroiderer would have rejected as unworkable. We would have to know more about the standards embroiderers set themselves, which means someone needs to examine the remaining originals closely and write about them, like the Museum of London Textiles book does on textiles. In the meantime, I am happy to copy painted designs and am reluctant to make up my own! >Incidently, I hold this >oppinion about variations in styles of dress. In any given period >(I believe) there would have been those who refused to wear the >current fashions as they didn't like them, they didn't suit the >individual, the individual thought they looked plain stoopid, or the >individual LOVED the style of sleeves/bodice/whatever of her >grandmother's old dress. I use myself as an example. I LOVED >flared trousers and bell-bottoms when they were first "in", and >didn't stop wearing them when they went "out". I know/know of other >(non costumers) who stick to styles they like rather than the current >trends... MY opinion only folks. Yes, you do see this on brasses, women dressed in the fashion of their youth, not current fashions (don't know any of grandmother's fashion!). It could be conservatism in the brass engravers, but could also reflect conservatism in dress, but you see, for example, gable headresses on women buried in the 1550s and 1560s, when they tend to have gone out of the pictures by the 1540s at the latest (Jane Seymour being about the last I can think of, and I often wonder if that was not a political statement). However, I don't think I can think of an example where one element of an outdated fashion is 'tacked-on' to a more modern fashion - tho you do get this with foreign fashions - Stubbs is very funny about this. Caroline ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 9 Oct 1996 07:56:07 -0500 From: Gary Stephens Subject: 14th-15th C Italian costume Greetings all, I wondered if any of you infinitely knowledgeable people could point me to any books on 14th & 15th century Italian costume, other than to look at paintings? I have a costume through the ages type of book by Peacock, which, while a good place from which to start, certainly leaves a good many questions as to structure, etc. There is a particular gown in there from 1490 Italy with a plunging neckline on the overgown, a bodice laced up the front under that, and a what appears to be a chemise under that. I'm very much interested in attempting to reconstruct the overgown in black silk which would be entirely embroidered in gold, and the bodice in rust with black & gold embroidery. Now, the pattern for the embroidery I'm thinking of using is based upon a fabric design on the woman's gown in Piero del Pollaiolo's painting of Temperance, from his Six Virtues. The embroidery's not a problem. It's the construction of the gown which has me concerned, because although it appears easy enough, I would like it to be correct, a true recreation. Any and all comments appreciated. Oh, BTW, I looked in Theatre Books in Toronto for costume books and was greatly disappointed. While a paradise of books of plays, the costume books mostly consisted of Victorian, Restoration and paperdoll cutouts. Sigh. Lorina J. Stephens author of _Touring the Giant's Rib_ & _Credit River Valley_ http://web.idirect.com/~canuck/stephens/stephen.html ------------------------------------------------------------ assistant editor, art director Maple Syrup Simmering http://web.idirect.com/~canuck/canzine.html ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 9 Oct 1996 07:50:58 -0400 From: Dale Loberger Subject: Hair Oils For some reason I did not receive the original post from Carol K., but I can second Heather Rose Jones comments about the relative "greasiness" of short hair when compared to longer hair. >our skin's oil >glands are sensitive to what _they_ perceive as a "need" for oil >production. In plain English, the more you wash your hair, the more oil >will be produced. If you wash your hair on a more "historic" schedule, the >oil glands will adjust and produce less. This is exactly the case. My dad used to raise so much sand with me in high school about washing my hair every day telling me that the more I washed it, the more I would need to for this very reason that Heather states! You know, he was right. I have found, since I am a mom with absolutely no time on my hands for such basic luxuries as a daily shampoo, that my hair honestly doesn t need it as often. I do brush often with a wooden brush -the kind with little wooden pegs set into a rubber base instead of actual bristles because it s gentler on the strands and also easier to get tangles out with. People never believe me when I say that with four kids, I keep my hair long (I can sit on it but don t -ouch!) because it s so much easier to care for that way than when it s short and needs daily styling. This way, I can experiment with period hairstyles to my heart s content and I don t have to toe the line about wearing a little white cap to cover my "incorrect" hair. Regarding the question Carol had about why they might have used "so much" hair pomades, etc., given the proliferation of recipes and ready-made ones available --from what I have read and seen in the antebellum period (photographic evidence & period writings), the desirable effect was for shiny, glossy, well-controlled hair, be the then-current fashion leaning more toward sleek or curly, either of which would benefit from an application of goo. I especially liked how the hair was done in the recent BBC production of Pride & Prejudice lots of glossy, controlled curls, tight on some (Jane upon going to the ball at Mr. Bingley s), sometimes looser and more casual-looking on others (Elisabeth when she comes upon D Arcy on horseback in the lane), depending on the occasion and the character of the girl herself. Even on the extremely fashionable Caroline Bingley and Mrs. Hurst, though the pomades were more evident, the hair shinier and even more extremely controlled, (in the case of Mrs. Hurst, often it is a very fashionable wig!) -- you still did not see "grease." Granted, I know this is a movie, but this time they did their homework: the hairstyles are very good, true-to-period renditions of what we see in portraits and fashion prints. I believe, contrary to what someone else who wrote supposed, that a "greasy" look was just as undesirable then as now, because think what the vagabonds, poor persons and beggars must have looked like, who never bathed and accumulated all kinds of Godknowswhat in their hair I am sure no one wanted to appear unclean or even remotely disreputable. The overly slick, greasy look associated with the Napoleonic hairstyles that men wore almost never appear in period portraits (a la Mr. Collins in P&P), even though then declared fashionable, was eschewed by many men as evidence of too much attention to ones looks, even in times when men took so much care of their appearance. Napoleon himself is often pictured with a gentler, softer sheen instead of the dripping with pomade look of Mr. Collins and some of the dandies. A present-day example of this attitude would be the fact that many young men wear an earring (or two). It is a fashionable thing to do. Many more men never will. Many fashionable young ladies wear slinky, short, polyester dresses. Those of us who suffered through them in the seventies will, I ll wager, never do so again. We want people to think there is something more to us than "fashion sense" like common sense. It was the same with people during this somewhat extreme period in history. I also have Gernsheim s book, and it may be that the hair in Victorian photographs "looks" greasy to us because we "know" that it wasn t necessarily washed as often as ours is. During the 1830 s, daily bathing became popular and the practice increased throughout the Victorian period. Before that, many people did bathe regularly out of personal beliefs or preference, even though it wasn t the common practice. We must remember that the desirable look for hair then was "a glossy sheen", not the carelessly flyaway windblown look that most of us like now. That sheen was produced by careful, prolonged brushing to distribute the oils to the ends of the shafts and the application of various herbal salves and other niceties to style and hold curl, as well as to protect and nourish the hair. Remember, we re not talking Vaseline here, or any other petroleum-based product such as might have been used by men in the 1950 s. Jane Newdick, in _At Home with Herbs_, states that "Certain herbs, such as willow, horsetail, rosemary, yarrow, nettle, and chamomile, have always been connected with healthy hair and scalp." The recipes I have use egg, elderflower, sage, and soapwort (this in an old recipe for shampoo). An old hair tonic for men uses "box and bay" (boxwood and bay leaves) and is said to "strengthen the hair and stimulate the scalp." Rosemary was said to prevent dandruff by nourishing and protecting the scalp. It has slight antiseptic properties. Lemon was used for the same reason - we now know its acidity restores pH to hair after the alkalinity of soap or shampoo, repelling bacteria. Time after time I read admonishments in old books to rinse, rinse, rinse and rinse some more, until you are absolutely certain that no trace of soap remains in the hair or on the scalp. Certain rinses containing herbs, such as the aforementioned elderflower and rosemary, were said to aid in this, as well as vinegar and horse-radish root. (Yuck!) All more evidence toward cleanliness, shine, manageability and "healthy" appearance being the desired standard and not an overly dressed, or a greasy, appearance, even by modern standards. Herewith, a quote, from "The Ladies Book of Etiquette, Fashion & Manual of Politeness" by Florence Hartley, published 1860. "When used moderately, oils, ointments, &c., tend to strengthen the hair, especially when it is naturally dry. When used in excess, they clog the pores, prevent the escape of the natural secretions, and cause the hair to wither and fall off." "Whether oils are used or not, the hair ought to be night and morning carefully and elaborately brushed. This is one of the best preservatives of beauty." This would seem to belie the supposed penchant for overly dressed hair. She relates various recipes for hair care. Some of the ingredients of these include bergamot, attar of roses, honey, lard, oil of cloves, port wine, southernwood, beeswax, oil of almonds, thyme, rosemary, lemon, rosewater, palm oil or annatto, quince, brandy, red wine, lavendar, "balsam of Peru," "common oil," egg yolk, and cinnamon. For one in particular she states, "This highly-praised and excellent pomade is made in the following way and if so made, will give a beautiful gloss and softness to the hair " Although the ingredients listed above are certainly unusual, reading the receipts does not give one the impression of producing a heavy, greasy or oily ointment, with only one or two exceptions, most noticeably, "Macassar oil," (for which antimacassars were created!), and "Lemon pomatum," which starts out with "Best lard, two pounds." As WBTS is not (yet) my period (keep working with me, Glenna Jo!) I cannot say how much of what was true in American and British culture from 1810 up to 1850 or so held over into the 1860 s but my absolutely uneducated guess would be that the frequency of shampooing stayed pretty consistent right up until the 1960 s, when daily showers and all that over-attention to body awareness in every way came in. If anyone can add more on this subject, please do. I especially like studying hairstyles (or couldn t you tell? ;-) Susannah Eanes, Mantua Maker and Fine Tailoring (Susan Bridges Loberger for Susannah s Heirloom, Ltd.) "We are only the trustees for those that come after us." William Morris ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 9 Oct 1996 10:49:27 -0400 From: aleed Subject: Re: Eleanora of Toledo stockings On Tue, 8 Oct 1996, Chris Laning wrote: > I'd like to know of any other references that give additional information. > In particular, neither author I've seen says anything about the silk thread > of which the stockings were made, except that it was probably crimson but > has now faded. I'd be interested if anyone knows of information on its > thickness and texture, how it was spun and plied and from what sort of silk > fiber. Rutt simply says it is "spun silk," which I assume means it is not > "reeled" silk. I have a couple of samples of various fibers to experiment > with, but it would make the search for suitable silk thread a little easier > if I knew more about what I was looking for. I found a quote in Queen Elizabeth's Wardrobe Unlock'd on the subject: "They have nether-stockes to these gaie hosen...of Jarnsey, Worsted, Crewell, Silke, Thred, and Suche like, or els at the least of the finest Yearne that can bee got, and so curiously knitte with open seame downe the legge, with quirks and clocks about the anckles and sometime interlaced with golde or silver threds, as is wonderfull to behold... the time hath bene, when one might have clothed all his body well, for lesse than a payre of these nether stockes will cost." And that's the extent of my knowledge on the subject. Drea ------------------------------- We've secretly replaced their dilithium crystals with new folgers crystals. Now let's watch them go to warp. ------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 9 Oct 1996 11:16:22 -0700 From: Leta Hendricks Subject: MRS. RUDOLPH'S BUTTONS: AN EXHIBIT PRESS RELEASE THE OHIO STATE UNIVERSITY =95 325 CAMPBELL HALL 1787 NEIL AVENUE =95=20 COLUMBUS, OHIO 43210 =95 614.292.4220 =95 Fax: 614.292.7859 For Immediate Release Date: October 9, 1996 Contact:Leta Hendricks Phone: 614.292.4220 Fax: 614.292.7859 MRS. RUDOLPH'S BUTTONS: AN EXHIBIT COLUMBUS, OHIO=97 Mrs. Rudolph's Buttons: An Exhibit will feature unique button books,=20 periodicals, and papers from The Ohio State University Libraries and=20 distinctive buttons and related realia from The College of Human=20 Ecology's Historic Costume and Textile Collection. In 1993, a wonderful collection of books and serials about buttons was=20 bequeathed to University Libraries through the estate of Ann W. and=20 Emmanuel D. Rudolph. Mrs. Rudolph was an avid button and book collector,= =20 collecting a variety of botanical related buttons and resources on button= =20 history, manufacturing, and styles. Selected items from both collections= =20 will be on display from September 25 through December 7, 1996 in Sills=20 Exhibit Hall. The Buckeye State Button Society will sponsor, in conjunction with the=20 exhibit, a library lecture by the renowned button author and collector,=20 Ms. Peggy Ann Osborne on Saturday, October 19, 1996 at 2:00 p.m. in Room=20 122 Main Library. Ms. Osborne will discuss the importance of button=20 collecting and button research. The Sills Exhibit Hall is located in the Main Library, 1858 Neil Avenue=20 Mall. The Main Library is open daily except on holidays, Monday -=20 Thursday 7:45 a.m. to midnight; Friday 7:45 a.m. to 10:00 p.m.; Saturday=20 8:00 a.m. - 10:00 p.m.; Sunday 11:00 a.m. - midnight. Parking is=20 available in the Ohio Union Garage, 1780 College Road. Both events are=20 free and open to the public. For further information contact exhibition curator, Leta Hendricks, Head=20 of the Human Ecology Library at 614.292.4220. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 9 Oct 1996 11:56:38 -0500 From: Gunnora Hallakarva Subject: Early Period Fitted Garments An earlier post said: >Well, I don't know about the earlier period, but this is certainly not true >for Western Europe from 1450 on (I have read that shaping garments to the >body starts in the 14th century)! Actually, in some places this occurred much earlier. In the last few years, several Viking ships have been recovered from the seafloor near Haithabau (Hedeby). When archaeologists started investigating, they found that the caulking between the strakes was composed of cloth that had been twisted into ropes and covered thoroughly with tar. Amazingly enough, textile archaeologists have been able to de-tar and unroll the cloth, revealing that the caulking ropes were made of *entire garments* which have been *perfectly* preserved in an airtight fashion by the tar! What is very interesting is that we can now look at exactly what people were wearing in the 10th & 11th centuries in Haithabau, at least. Some intersting finds show that many women's dresses were fitted using eight or more gores, and the so-called "Viking apron" was really a single wrap-around rectangle of cloth that was fitted to the body using a variety of darts. So far, the research has not been easily available except in German, but more and more is trickling into English-language research. I can't wait to see *all* of the information. Wassail, ::GUNNORA:: Gunnora Hallakarva Herskerinde =========================================== Ek eigi visa (th)ik hversu o(dh)lask Lofstirrlauf-Kruna heldr hversu na Hersis-A(dh)al ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 9 Oct 1996 13:02:48 -0400 From: aleed Subject: Re: Early Period Fitted Garments Do you happen to know the names of the german publications? I'd love to reed this! Drea On Wed, 9 Oct 1996, Gunnora Hallakarva wrote: > An earlier post said: > > >Well, I don't know about the earlier period, but this is certainly not true > >for Western Europe from 1450 on (I have read that shaping garments to the > >body starts in the 14th century)! > > Actually, in some places this occurred much earlier. In the last few years, > several Viking ships have been recovered from the seafloor near Haithabau > (Hedeby). When archaeologists started investigating, they found that the > caulking between the strakes was composed of cloth that had been twisted > into ropes and covered thoroughly with tar. Amazingly enough, textile > archaeologists have been able to de-tar and unroll the cloth, revealing that > the caulking ropes were made of *entire garments* which have been > *perfectly* preserved in an airtight fashion by the tar! > > What is very interesting is that we can now look at exactly what people were > wearing in the 10th & 11th centuries in Haithabau, at least. Some > intersting finds show that many women's dresses were fitted using eight or > more gores, and the so-called "Viking apron" was really a single wrap-around > rectangle of cloth that was fitted to the body using a variety of darts. > > So far, the research has not been easily available except in German, but > more and more is trickling into English-language research. I can't wait to > see *all* of the information. > > Wassail, > > ::GUNNORA:: > > > Gunnora Hallakarva > Herskerinde > =========================================== > Ek eigi visa (th)ik hversu o(dh)lask Lofstirrlauf-Kruna > heldr hversu na Hersis-A(dh)al > ------------------------------- We've secretly replaced their dilithium crystals with new folgers crystals. Now let's watch them go to warp. ------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 9 Oct 1995 15:30:20 -0400 From: Sharon and/or Mikie Subject: Early Period Fitted Garments Hello all! This is just a question brought up by another posting. I have read that the first fitted garments were actually prehistoric. The skins or furs would be fitted because they "laced" them up the sides with long strips of leather. I know there is really no way to vareify this (that's why they call it prehistoric, after all), but is there any validity to this point? Just curious! Sharon ***************************** * * * DON'T MESS WITH TECHIES - * * * * THEY ALL CARRY KNIVES * * * ***************************** ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 9 Oct 1996 13:18:30 -0700 From: Glenna Jo & Bill Christen Subject: Re: Hair Oils Dale Loberger wrote: > >Herewith, a quote, from "The Ladies Book of Etiquette, Fashion & Manual >of Politeness" by Florence Hartley, published 1860. Most of my etiquette books of the same era give very similar information on care of the hair. A few also recommend 'regular' rinsing (without actually washing) of the hair with warm water. This probably got rid of the loose dirt and dust without stripping out the natural oils. _Beaton's Book of Household Management_ (1859-61) recommended washing the hair in warmed soft water once every week or two and to shampoo it once/month or so. > As WBTS is not (yet) my period (keep working with me, Glenna Jo!) I > cannot say how much of what was true in American and British culture > from 1810 up to 1850 or so held over into the 1860's... My research in the 1860's makes it clear that at least for women there wasn't much of a change in hair care practices from earlier decades. I don't know if my other post on this topic ever appeared on the list, but I commented on the health hazards of washing hair in the winter in cold climate areas. Living in a poorly heated house with a wood burning stove as the only method to speed up the hair drying process would make me think twice about washing my hair too often that's for sure. One could easily "Catch her death of dampness" that way! :-) Having examined the 1,000+ (I need to do a recount!)1860's CdV's in our collection I can't say any of the women's hair looked greasy to me at all. They generally display a very smooth even sheen that was the sign of healthy hair, and was much prized at that time. I've tried using oil on my hair for events when I know I will have time to wash my hair before going to bed, and my hair is much easier to dress. I've learned not to wash my hair within a day of an even or my hair is a real mess to deal with. Once I make myself a night cap, I may start to oil my hair for all my events. As the old Brylcreme ads once stated, "a littled dab'l do ya" or in the case of the hair tonic with oil I have, a drop or two is sufficient, and my hair tends to look much more like the hair on women in period photos. I sure wouldn't describe it as greasy looking at all. Glenna Jo Christen gwjchris@rust.net ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 9 Oct 1996 13:48:49 -0700 From: Koehn or Koivisto Subject: Still asking for research assistance!!!! Hello everyone! My name is Mike Koehn and I am an undergraduate student at the University College of the Cariboo in Kamloops, B.C. I am enrolled in a women's literature class and am researching the effects that the clothing that women wore in the 17th, 18th, and 19th centuries had upon their mental and physical health. Anyone out there with expertise in this area, please contact me!!! To those that have already sent material, thank you so much. Hopefully I have sent a thank you reply to you but if not, my apologies. Thanks everyone! Mike Koehn ================================================================= This message was sent to you by: Skippy the Wonder Squirrel Soon to be on the 'net! Watch this signature file for more info!!! ;-) Mike Koehn Matthew Koivisto ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 9 Oct 1996 18:50:49 -0300 From: Margaret Rae Carignan Subject: Re: Early Period Fitted Garments On Mon, 9 Oct 1995, Sharon and/or Mikie wrote: I have read that the > first fitted garments were actually prehistoric. The skins or furs would be > fitted because they "laced" them up the sides with long strips of leather. > I know there is really no way to vareify this (that's why they call it > prehistoric, after all), but is there any validity to this point? Just curious! > You're right - there is no way to verify it, which means we can all have fun arguing without documentation getting in the way! I think it depends partially on your definition of "fitted" - I assume the term to mean a garment thatfits the shape of the body, like a princess-line dress, or such like. The idea that cavemen might have laced their furs on (possibly to keep tham from falling off, or to keep the wind out?) seems perfectly plausible - they wouldn't have needed needles or anything complicated - just poke holes, and push! I somehow doubt, however, that they were "fitting" the garments. It is possible, but it wouldn't provide much benefit, wouldit? Fun, and silly, too. My idea of a good thing! Meg/Francsca ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 9 Oct 1996 17:56:00 CDT From: Mickie Erickson Subject: clothes & styles More on the T-Tunic: Yes, it is a horror when misused;but it is essential when portraying a Saxon Yeoman (and it combines with basic breeches to make a comfortingly familiar garment for a new SCA participant. But Yes; upgrade to something different (unless you are interested in that era; plenty of opportunity to embroider & elaborate. Up Harold! Down William!) Napoleon as Roman Emperor: before we completely discard those paintings, remember that the French made an effort to completely retool State costume on classical lines. Hence, Nap. would have dressed in a toga &ct. However, many of the illustrations are gratuitous (in the Museum of American Art in Cooperstown, NY, there are several busts of noted statesmen in tunics & togas. It makes them look very strong & just. I'd hate to have seen the rest of them, though.) About 'hidden' pockets. Many Norwegian Bunads (folk costumes) have the woman's purse/pocket concealed under the apron or overskirt, availiable thru a side slit. (hard to carry a goblet or tankard in there, though. With farthingales, though!) Frock coats: According to the holy of holies (The Cut of Men's Clothes 1600-1900, norah waugh) they would probably been lined with cotton cloth. Re: padding, shaping, ; it would have been fitted, but probably not overly padded unless the wearer's physique needed help. (yes, I finally got my own copy. Thank you all for your moral support!) Tom Erickson ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 9 Oct 1996 23:06:49 -0400 From: No Name Subject: Monk's habit I am working on an early 16th century Augustinian Friar's habit. Anyone know where to find patterns (I should be so lucky), reliable (!) pictures, or have any pointers? Cheers, TimN ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 9 Oct 1996 17:29:10 -1000 From: Lisa Leong Subject: Re: 14th-15th C Italian costume On Wed, 9 Oct 1996, Gary Stephens wrote: > I wondered if any of you infinitely knowledgeable people could > point me to any books on 14th & 15th century Italian costume, other than to > look at paintings? Lorina, This just barely skims the end of your period and it's particular to Venice but I recall it as being quite good. Don't remember anything specifically about embroidery, tho'. --lisa The Dress of the Venetians, 1495-1525 (Pasold Studies in Textile History 7) by Stella Mary Newton Scolar Press, 1989 ISBN: 056605177X ------------------------------ End of H-COSTUME Digest - 8 Oct 1996 to 9 Oct 1996 ************************************************** From ???@??? Fri Oct 11 10:00:55 1996 Received: from brownvm.brown.edu by mail.math.TU-Berlin.DE with SMTP id AA16605 (5.67b8/IDA-1.5 for ); Fri, 11 Oct 1996 05:06:40 +0100 Message-Id: <199610110406.AA16605@mail.math.TU-Berlin.DE> Received: from BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU by BROWNVM.brown.edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with BSMTP id 7992; Fri, 11 Oct 96 00:02:04 EDT Received: from BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU (NJE origin LISTSERV@BROWNVM) by BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 7632; Fri, 11 Oct 1996 00:02:00 -0400 Date: Fri, 11 Oct 1996 00:01:18 -0400 Reply-To: Historic Costume List Sender: Historic Costume List From: Automatic digest processor Subject: H-COSTUME Digest - 9 Oct 1996 to 10 Oct 1996 To: Recipients of H-COSTUME digests There are 19 messages totalling 683 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. Hair care 2. Various 3. Multiple Messages 4. FWD:highland dancing costumes 5. 30s pattern 6. T-tunics--cut and fit 7. Early Period Fitted Garments 8. period misconceptions (2) 9. Zoot Suits 10. 12th and 13th century clothing 11. coat linings 12. T-tunics 13. Weding Rings 14. Hair Oils... that reminds me...! 8-) 15. Textiles & Clothing Book 16. Robin Hood 17. 20's fashions 18. Eleanora of Toledo stockings ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 10 Oct 1996 14:50:28 +1000 From: Sarah Randles Subject: Hair care Susannah wrote: >" The recipes I have use egg, elderflower, sage, and soapwort >(this in an old recipe for shampoo) Let me share a word of warning about egg as a shampoo. I too had read that it was good for hair, and thought I'd try it. If you're going to do this, make sure you use lukewarm rinsing water (Ugh!). I tried to rinse it under a hot shower, and, voila!, made scrambled egg in my hair. Scrambled egg is difficult to remove from long wavy hair, and is not generally considered an attractive look. Sarah ****************************************************************************** Sarah Randles email: s-randles@adfa.oz.au English Department phone: 06 268 8898 University College ADFA fax: 06 268 8899 Canberra ACT 2601 AUSTRALIA ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 Oct 1996 09:57:00 BST From: Mrs C S Yeldham Subject: Various I'm having trouble getting this through. Can I please assure the listserver that I haven't quoted that much of Teddy's text and have added in quite a lot of mine! Hello Teddy (didn't we meet at Eastercon?) >Mrs C S Yeldham wrote >> Subject: T-tunic > >> You could describe the houppeland for men and women, or the woman's >> gown, in that way, but it is much bigger, made of solid materials >> (eg wool) and lined, sometimes in fur. It is also worn neatly >> belted, with the gathers arranged, or sewn, symetrically, and I >> certainly wouldn't describe it as a T-tunic! >I beg to differ here Caroline. I would describe both, and many many >other garments, as VARIATIONS on the T-tunic. Theu may be fuller in >places, or more fitted in others, but, if you lay them out flat they >form variations on a "T" shape. In that sense any garment cut in one piece from neck to floor could be described as a T-tunic. The key is whether it is a helpful term to use in talking or thinking about the garment, and I don't think its a very helpful way to think of the garments when making them, and positively dangerous when describing them to a new costumer! > Subject: Re: Hair Oils I have very dry curly hair, and my record for not washing my hair was 4 weeks (before itchy scalp did for me) and no-one noticed! Some time ago the Body Shop stocked Macassar oil (the genuine stuff). I loved it, a few drops gave my hair a glossy gleam. >> ... SO WHAT if he made up his own patterns? If you're stitching a >> geometric pattern on linen, you can come up with ANY pattern >> yourself and *voila* it's a geometric blackwork pattern on linen. >> It's impossible, as far as I know, for Holbein to have "made up" >> (as in "invented wrongly") unworkable blackwork patterns in any >> event. So stop splitting hairs! (Or threads?) 8-) >I'll go along with that. IMHO, unimaginative people would have >copied existing patterns, imaginative ones may have got bored with >them and adapted them or made up their own. Yes but ... A modern person making up a blackwork pattern is less 'steeped' in the visual cues of the 16th century, so there will be differences between what a 20th century and a 16th century person will invent. That's fine for ordinary use, but not if you are saying it is what a 16th century person would have embroidered. Holbein might well have developed patterns for use by embroiderers, but it is also possible that in painting a pretty pattern he could have come up with a design that an embroiderer would have rejected as unworkable. We would have to know more about the standards embroiderers set themselves, which means someone needs to examine the remaining originals closely and write about them, like the Museum of London Textiles book does on textiles. In the meantime, I am happy to copy painted designs and am reluctant to make up my own! >Incidently, I hold this >oppinion about variations in styles of dress. In any given period >(I believe) there would have been those who refused to wear the >current fashions as they didn't like them, they didn't suit the >individual, the individual thought they looked plain stoopid, or the >individual LOVED the style of sleeves/bodice/whatever of her >grandmother's old dress. Yes, you do see this on brasses, women dressed in the fashion of their youth, not current fashions (don't know any of grandmother's fashion!). It could be conservatism in the brass engravers, but could also reflect conservatism in dress, but you see, for example, gable headresses on women buried in the 1550s and 1560s, when they tend to have gone out of the pictures by the 1540s at the latest (Jane Seymour being about the last I can think of, and I often wonder if that was not a political statement). However, I don't think I can think of an example where one element of an outdated fashion is 'tacked-on' to a more modern fashion - tho you do get this with foreign fashions - Stubbs is very funny about this. Caroline ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 Oct 1996 11:37:00 BST From: Mrs C S Yeldham Subject: Multiple Messages Why am I getting multiple messages from Postmaster@dgii.com objecting to my last message? Could someone please stop it! Caroline ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 Oct 1996 08:39:53 -0400 From: Veda Crewe Joseph Subject: Re: FWD:highland dancing costumes Highland dancing costumes, for competition have become extremely=20 standardised. I would be important to know if you mean this sort of=20 dancing or the Scottish country Dancing which has more options. Clan=20 tartans are the most important part of making it Scottish and=20 traditional. What exactly does this group do? Veda Crewe Joseph Lauren Podolak wrote: >=20 > >Date: Tue, 08 Oct 1996 01:56:36 -0700 > >From: Death Squirrel > >Organization: Satanic Rodentia, Inc. > >MIME-Version: 1.0 > >To: milieux@digital.net > >Subject: highland dancing costumes > >X-URL: http://ddi.digital.net/~milieux/costume.html > > > >Hello, > >My name is ALison Starnes and I have recently been involved in a ventu= re > >to make a costume for Scottish > >highland dancing. I have been completely unable to find any pictures = of > >the "Scottish National Costume", so we > >sort of made up a pattern according to what we were told it looked lik= e. > >I would like to find more information > >on this subject, so if anyone has pictures of any of the female dancin= g > >costumes, please let me know at: > > > >astarnes@gladstone.uoregon.edu > > > >Thanks, > >Alison > > --=20 =D0=CF=11=E0=A1=B1=1A=E1 ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 Oct 1996 09:19:51 -0500 From: Joe Lichtenstein Subject: 30s pattern I have a reproduction 1930s dress pattern put out by Simplicity a few years ago to celebrate their 60th Anniversary. The pattern is a size 14. It has been used but all pieces are there and the instruction sheet has been written on but is still legible. The dress is mid-calf length with a slim-fitting skirt, elasticized waist, sleeveless but has a capelet hanging off its yoke to cover the upper arms. Interested?? Just $5.00 ppd. (as is) Lezlie owd@netins.net ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 Oct 1996 10:43:08 -0400 From: Susan Carroll-Clark Subject: Re: T-tunics--cut and fit Greetings! Julie, while I agree with almost everything you say about straight-cut garments (don't call 'em t-tunics--that was not a period word; use "shirt" or "camisa" or "cote"--or even just plain "tunic" is better), one thing still puzzles me: sleeves cut at one with the garment. Now, I have seen some examples of woven Egyptian shirts from c. 6th century where the sleeves were actually created by weaving the cloth into a shape that could be folded over and stitched together (it's in Dorothy Burnham's _Cut my Cote_, if anyone is curious), the majority of other evidence I have seen (granted, most of it pre-1300, and I know that larger looms were available by the 14th century) shows the sleeve cut separately and stitched to the body. The shirt of St. Louis (also in _Cut my Cote_) shows this arrangement, as do some garments found in bogs from the 10th-14th century. In practical terms, it's necessary because most of my research points towards 22"-27" being the standard width of fabric up to about the 14th century (see Crowfoot et al. _Textiles and Clothing_ (the Museum of London book). I've seen some persuasive evidence for a seam on the bicep, as well, but not for the standard SCA "fold a piece of material, cut, and instant tunic" construction. If you've got some documentation for this, I would LOVE to see it! (Really--I'm not challenging your findings; I've found a lot of variation and exceptions to what we thought were hard and fast rules of cutting over the years, and would be pleased to add this one in, too). The problem is, of course, that artists of this period were not interested in depicting seam lines. If you look at a 13th century painting, it sure as heck looks like the sleeve is cut as one with the body, and, in fact, many of the costume books swear that this is the way it was actually done. As for fitting--there were experiementations ongoing with fitting garments to the body from about the 11th century on. Contemporary references in the 12th century lead us to believe that the "bliaut" was side laced to obtain the desired tight-through-the-body look; likewise, in the 13th century, lower sleeves were first laced or sewn shut, buttons later being adapted for this purpose. Even though straight-cut garments went out of fashion for the upper classes around the 14th-15th century, they still remained the mainstay for one type of clothing for all classes: underwear. Contemporary paintings and illuminations point out that underchemises and shirts, while sometimes pleated in later periods, are still essentially straight-cut garments (as opposed to, for instance, a modern pattern with curved pieces). And certainly anyone who's ever looked at European folk dress will be struck by how much straight-cutting is used; this is the clothing likely to have been worn by peasants and labourers. Cheers-- Susan Carroll-Clark sclark@chass.utoronto.ca ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 Oct 1996 09:59:28 -0500 From: Gunnora Hallakarva Subject: Re: Early Period Fitted Garments Heilsa, Everyone. Several people have contacted me regarding the German sources for the information on fitted/tailored Viking women's garments. The source I mentioned which describeds the Haithabu finds is: Hagg, Inga, "Die Textilfunde aus dem Hafen von Haithabu. Beriche uber die Ausgrabungen in Haithabu," Bericht 20. Neumunster: Karl Wachholz Verlag, 1984. There may be other sources by this time, but not being a textile archaeologist, I'm not as current in the field. I tend to get the info as it trickles down into English research. I got my first hint of this information reading: Jesch, Judith. Women in the Viking Age. Woodbridge: Boydell. 1991. ISBN 0-85115-278-3. "Thus, the largest collection of Viking Age terxtiles comes from the underwater excavation in 1979-80 of the harbour at Haithabu (Hedeby), the southernmost emporium of Viking Age Scandinavia, now in Germany near the Danish border. These textile fragments wree all discraded clothing which had been torn up into rags and used in shipbuilding, either for tarring the outside of a ship or stuffing into cracks to make it watertight. "The simplest clothes found at Haithabu were made of the roughest woolen fabric, suggesting that these were the clothes of slaves, servants and the poor, or the daily dress of the better-off. The women's garments consisted of very simple anlkle-length, long-sleeved dresses, cut loose to enable freedom of movement at work, and possibly a simple wrap or shawl. "Better-quality clothing was also found in the rags of Haithabu and here the finds are similar to those of the clothing from Birka and elsewhere in Scandinavia: over a linen shift, women wore an overdress of fine woolen fabric, held up by the ubiquitous pair of brooches. However, whereas elsewhere the overdress has always been reconstructed as a straight garment, the Haithabu finds indicate that there at least it was tailored at the waist. Tucks and decorative braid running vertically further emphasized the wearer's shape. Outdoors, the better-off women of Haithabu wore an ankle-length coat, again quite wide at the bottom. These coats were made of high-quality dyed wool that had been felted to make it weather-resistant, and were lined, and often quilted with down or feathers for added warmth." (Jesch, p. 17-18) If you are having trouble locating the texts by Hagg or Jesch, I highly recommend: Krupp, Christina and Carolyn A. Priest-Dorman. "Women's Garb in Northern Europe: 450-1000 CE: Frisians, Angles, Franks, Balts, Vikings and Finns." Compleat Anachronist 59. Milpitas: Society for Creative Anachronism. 1992. (available for $4 + SH from The Office of the Stock Clerk, P.O. Box 360789, Milpitas, CA 95036-0789. Call (408)956-5444 for details.) While I don't know Krupp's background, Priest-Dorman is an expert in Viking Age textiles and fashions. This pamphlet is very well done on a scholarly level that is still extremely useful to anyone wishing to reconstruct early-period women's clothing from Northern Europe. Information from this pamphlet includes: "The tenth-century smocks from Hedeby included such refinements as 'wide, rounded neck openings; the sharply curved armholes; seperate lengths of fabric used in the construction, with gores inserted' and front and back 'sides sewn together at the shoulders' [Hagg, 1984, p. 171].... In the tenth century at Birka and Hedeby there is evidence for pieced construction including seperately-cut sleeves, shoulder seams, and gores in gowns. At Hedeby especially, there is clear evidence that the torso section of a gown 'fitted closely to the body and ... was widened by the addition of several triangular gores, widening significantly toward the bottom.' [Hagg, 1984, p. 177]" (Krupp and Priest-Dorman, p. 43-44) According to Krupp & Priest-Dorman, the "Viking apron" consisting of two rectangles worn tabard-style is a misconception: "Fifty years ago Agnes Geijer postulated that Viking aprons were made from large untailored rectangles wrapped around the body. Due perhaps to the fact that this postulate was in a German book published in Sweden, not many writers of popular Viking books in English got the picture. Most illustrators drew Viking women dressed in two hanging panels connected by brooches. The more recent works by Inga Hagg, who examines the finds of women's clothing at Birka and Hedeby in exacting detail, clearly contradict that assumption. "The apron-dress, a direct decendant of the peplos dress, was worn suspened over the shoulders by paired brooches hooked through looped straps.... In the earlier period most apron-dresses were made of wool, but like the other layers, in the later period a few were apparently made of linen. No examples of embroidered or metal-trimmed apron-dresses have been published, However, many were richly colored; some were ornamented with woven or braided trim at the top, and some were lined with silk. "Hagg [1974, pp. 108-9] suggests that in its early, untailored incarnation, the apron-dress was likely to have been sewn closed like a peplos. Her work, based on the finds from Hedeby, indicates that some apron-dresses were even tailored to fit closely to the body: 'the pieces come from a garment cut and sewn in several panels. The garment narrows at the waist and is made even more fitting by tucks or darts at the waist. Lower down, it widens over the hips.' [Hagg, 1984, p. 169]" "Although the fragments are incomplete, definite evidence of tailoring can b e discerned, consisting of long, vertical tapered darts taken in the torso area between breast and hip. Decorative narrow strips of braid in two colors were applied ion the outside of the dart seams of this apron-dress at Hedeby, much as braids were applied over the seams of clothing in several localities, including Birka." (Krupp & Priest-Dorman, pp. 45-46) For those who are interested, the other works cited in the pamphlet quotes above are: Hagg, Inga. "Kvinnodrakten i Birka: Livplaggens Rekonstruktion pa Grundval av det Arkaeologiska Materialet." Uppsala: Archaeological Institute, 1974. Geijer, Agnes. "Die Textilfunde aus den Grabern," Vol III of Birka: Untersuchungen und Studien. Uppsala: Kungl. Vitterhets Historie och Antikvitets Akademien, 1938. If you need more detailed information, please feel free to contact me. If your questions go beyond my skills (I am *not* a textile archaeologist) I'd refer you to Carolyn Priest-Dorman (Mistress Thora Sharptooth in the SCA) at priest@vassar.edu Wassail, ::GUNNORA:: Gunnora Hallakarva Herskerinde =========================================== Ek eigi visa (th)ik hversu o(dh)lask Lofstirrlauf-Kruna heldr hversu na Hersis-A(dh)al ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 Oct 1996 11:44:09 -0400 From: EGerds@AOL.COM Subject: Re: period misconceptions In a message dated 96-10-07 11:22:48 EDT, Gail said: << Hardly anyone seems to publish accurate "how-to" stuff for the middle ages, and I think that's why the costuming level in the SCA is so low. If you're interested in a particular time and place, you pretty much have to go from scratch, unless you're lucky enough to live near someone who has done the research for you. >> I would argue that there is a good amount of research published on medieval cultures -- much of it by the SCA or SCA friendly publishers (such as Falconwood & Moongate). Admitedly, you are not going to find this stuff at Crown Books -- but you're not going to find much on costuming at a general book store anyway! The Complete Anacronist series is also a wonderful resource, and most of the past issues are still in print. The booklets may be small, but many of them are full of very good information. There are lots more books I could site, but I don't want to take up too much time or bandwidth -- I figure most people just stick with there old t-tunics because they are (1) a finished costume and (2) "comfy". Liz Gerds AKA Lady Elizabeth Oakwood ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 Oct 1996 11:44:16 -0400 From: EGerds@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Zoot Suits Becky wrote: :Can anyone point me in the right direction for some good, detailed :information, and even a pattern (that would be great!!) for a zoot suit? Working at AlterYears this is a question that we get about 6 to 10 times a year. Unfortunately, while there is still a company who makes Zoot Suits, there is no available pattern. If anyone ever finds a pattern, please, please, please let me know! Liz Gerds ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 Oct 1996 11:44:17 -0400 From: EGerds@AOL.COM Subject: Re: 12th and 13th century clothing In a message dated 96-10-08 11:17:09 EDT, sclark@CHASS.UTORONTO.CA (Susan Carroll-Clark) writes: << To learn about the fabrics used, you should have a look at Crowfoot et. al.'s _Textiles and Clothing_, which is published by HMSO under the auspices of the Museum of London. >> If you are interested in this book get a hold of a copy soon. It just went out of print! Liz Gerds ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 Oct 1996 11:44:18 -0400 From: EGerds@AOL.COM Subject: Re: coat linings In a message dated 96-10-08 16:39:58 EDT, Becci_Plummer@MSN.COM (Rebecca Plummer) writes: << Can anyone please enlighten me as to the regulations on 1860's frock coat linings. I have seen so many different examples such as front facings only, full lining, lining and interlining, quilted lining, and chest padding. >> To the best of my knowledge the difference is not anything regulated (unless you are looking at military frock coats) but rather quality of construction. A lined coat will last longer than an unlined coat and tends to hang better as well. Interlining will give the coat more shape, and quilting and padding is sometime put there to give the coat a better figure than that of the person wearing it. If you ever want a real education in tailoring, get your hands on a trashed Marine Dress uniform and take it apart, layer by layer. There's good reason why the Marines look so spif in their dress uniforms -- they are tailored to death! Liz Gerds ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 Oct 1996 08:46:22 -0700 From: Heather Rose Jones Subject: T-tunics > >> You could describe the houppeland for men and women, or the woman's > >> gown, in that way, but it is much bigger, made of solid materials > >> (eg wool) and lined, sometimes in fur. It is also worn neatly > >> belted, with the gathers arranged, or sewn, symetrically, and I > >> certainly wouldn't describe it as a T-tunic! > > >I beg to differ here Caroline. I would describe both, and many many > >other garments, as VARIATIONS on the T-tunic. Theu may be fuller in > >places, or more fitted in others, but, if you lay them out flat they > >form variations on a "T" shape. I'm sure that part of the problem is that everyone has their own technical definition of "T-tunic", but I will argue that a properly-cut houppelande cannot be laid out "flat". If we're going to apply the term t-tunic to something like a houppelande, then I think we're perilously close to making it a synonym for "clothes". My personal definition of "T-tunic" is a simple garment where the sleeves and body are all cut as a single piece (usually described by the "fold your fabric in quarters and trace around a shirt" method). This cut bears some resemblence to Classical tunics woven as a singe piece and then sewn up, but for even early-medieval tunic styles, this method can best be thought of as a modern approximation to the effect, not as an actual historic cut. Heather Rose Jones ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 Oct 1996 09:06:44 -0700 From: Heather Rose Jones Subject: Re: period misconceptions On Thu, 10 Oct 1996 EGerds@AOL.COM wrote: > In a message dated 96-10-07 11:22:48 EDT, Gail said: > << Hardly anyone seems to > publish accurate "how-to" stuff for the middle ages, and I think that's why > the costuming level in the SCA is so low. If you're interested in a > particular time and place, you pretty much have to go from scratch, unless > you're lucky enough to live near someone who has done the research for you. > >> > I would argue that there is a good amount of research published on medieval > cultures -- much of it by the SCA or SCA friendly publishers (such as > Falconwood & Moongate). Admitedly, you are not going to find this stuff at > Crown Books -- but you're not going to find much on costuming at a general > book store anyway! > > The Complete Anacronist series is also a wonderful resource, and most of the > past issues are still in print. The booklets may be small, but many of them > are full of very good information. There are lots more books I could site, > but I don't want to take up too much time or bandwidth -- The main problem here is that the quality and accuracy of the information published in the SCA -- even _by_ the SCA, Inc. itself -- varies so widely that you _still_ need to learn everything from scratch yourself before you have a hope of being able to sort the wheat from the chaff. There's great, reliable information there -- but there's also disinformation and perpetuated myth. Which, I think, is where this conversation started. Heather Rose Jones ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 Oct 1996 12:18:18 -0400 From: Adriane Elizabeth Wyndham Subject: Re: Weding Rings From the little research I have done for my wedding, the ring was worn on the right hand on the middle finger. When presenting the ring, the officiate would say in the name of the Father, of the Son, and the HOly Spirit. As each name was said the ring was slid onto and off each finger starting with the thumb and ending on the middle finger. "of the Father" (slid on and off the thumb) "of the Son" (slid on and off the index finger) "and the Holy Spirit" (slid onto the middle finger and left there) I don't know if both men and women wore rings <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< "If ever there was a woman deserving of happiness, it is my Love." --Richard, written to his bride-to-be on March 24, 1996 Adriane Wyndham aelizab@bgnet.bgsu.edu (419) 352-1752 <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 Oct 1996 13:47:28 -0700 From: The Polsons Subject: Hair Oils... that reminds me...! 8-) Hello everybody. After seeing all the traffic on Hair Oils recently, I would like to remind y'all that I am always in search of articles of interest to living history folks. You know, things like "10 Period Recipes for Victorian Hair Oils" or somesuch that folks could make and use in reenactments. Need writer's guidelines? Lemme know and I'll forward them, or you can find them on my web page. Oh, and as an added enticement, I PAY $$ for articles! 8-) Thanks for indulging me this space... ********************************************** Willow Polson....willow@recreating-history.com Recreating History magazine ..."Historic Crafts, Cooking, and Clothing"... ----> http://www.recreating-history.com <----- Call us toll free! 1-(888) REENACT (733-6228) ********************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 Oct 1996 17:33:38 -0400 From: Veda Crewe Joseph Subject: Textiles & Clothing Book I have a copy which I'll sell for $76. which is exactly what I paid for it. Veda Crewe Joseph > << To learn about the fabrics used, you should have a look at Crowfoot et. > al.'s _Textiles and Clothing_, which is published by HMSO under the auspices > of the Museum of London. > >> > > If you are interested in this book get a hold of a copy soon. It just went > out of print! > > Liz Gerds ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 Oct 1996 22:01:35 GMT From: Megan Hargreaves Subject: Robin Hood Does anyone know how authentic Robin Hood: Prince of Thieves is? I am looking at Lady Marion's dress for authenticity and I am not sure if it is the right period as said at the start of the movie, 1100's. Thanks. Megan ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 Oct 1996 21:43:09 -0400 From: Leigh Ann Schwarzkopf Subject: 20's fashions The University of Minnesota's Goldstein Gallery is holding an exhibit entitled "Coming Apart at the Seams" until January 12th. Phone number is 612-624-7473. >From the Star/Tribune: "Seams" incorporates diverse objects ranging from the ice skates of cultural hero Speed King Kelly to advertising posters that foretell the changing role of women. But apparel - from undergarments in a bedroom scene to flapper gowns - set the exhibit themes. ... The goal of the exhibit, says one of its curators, Julia Mickenberg, was to break down some of the more sensationalized stereotypes surrounding the roaring '20s and the Jazz Age. The staff has highlighted the rise of the new youth culture, for example, with a diplay of typical college wear. A photo blowup of an automobile emphasizes the car's central place in that culture. If anyone goes, let me know what you think. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 Oct 1996 23:10:47 -0400 From: Jafath@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Eleanora of Toledo stockings _Cast-On_, the magazine of The Knitting Guild of America, ran a similar pattern (worked out by a TKGA member) a couple of years ago, but done in fine wool. Would you find it helpful to see how someone else dealt with it? I can send a photocopy if so. Jo Anne ------------------------------ End of H-COSTUME Digest - 9 Oct 1996 to 10 Oct 1996 *************************************************** From ???@??? Mon Oct 14 09:36:19 1996 Received: from brownvm.brown.edu by mail.math.TU-Berlin.DE with SMTP id AA23422 (5.67b8/IDA-1.5 for ); Sat, 12 Oct 1996 05:05:45 +0100 Message-Id: <199610120405.AA23422@mail.math.TU-Berlin.DE> Received: from BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU by BROWNVM.brown.edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with BSMTP id 1039; Sat, 12 Oct 96 00:01:12 EDT Received: from BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU (NJE origin LISTSERV@BROWNVM) by BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 8497; Sat, 12 Oct 1996 00:01:11 -0400 Date: Sat, 12 Oct 1996 00:01:08 -0400 Reply-To: Historic Costume List Sender: Historic Costume List From: Automatic digest processor Subject: H-COSTUME Digest - 10 Oct 1996 to 11 Oct 1996 To: Recipients of H-COSTUME digests There are 12 messages totalling 295 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. Robin Hood (2) 2. Holbein 3. stagecraft list (fwd) 4. subscribe (2) 5. Eleanora of Toledo stockings 6. Hair Oils... that reminds me...! 8-) 7. wedding rings 8. Hair 9. Introduction 10. some SCA stuff ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 10 Oct 1996 02:31:43 PDT From: "Marlo W. Peck" Subject: Re: Robin Hood > > Does anyone know how authentic Robin Hood: Prince of Thieves is? > I am looking at Lady Marion's dress for authenticity and I am not sure = if it > is the right period as said at the start of the movie, 1100's. > > Thanks. > Megan I'm not certain about Lady Marion's dress, but most of Prince of Thieves = is Hollywood History. The roots of history are there, but a lot of the = details are modern so that the standard audience will be comfortable and = so that the stars will be shown off. The men's clothing is definately = a historical mix. The sherif is in clothing of a differents century than= Robin. Marlo W. Peck Knowne to the Society as Muriel deRedfearne ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 Oct 1996 09:30:11 +1 From: Jon Bagguley Subject: Holbein I too would be interested in any information on Holbein making up the blackwork designs. However even if he did it doesn't necessarily invalidate them because he was also a well known designer. I don't know if he was ever known to design embroidery designs but some of his jewellery designs are wonderful. He was a very talented man who obviously had and eye for detail. I'm guessing now but wouldn't such a man notice such things and feel them important and have a eye for at least getting the style right. Has anyone got information on any other primary sources of blackwork such a pattern book or surviving items ? As has been already said several different sources add up to give a better picture. Esther Reeves ( on my husband's account ) Temporal Schizophrenia : when you refer to both 15th and 20th century as modern and anything in between as old fashioned ! ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 Oct 1996 23:42:31 -1000 From: Lisa Leong Subject: Re: stagecraft list (fwd) ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Thu, 10 Oct 1996 08:36:16 -1000 From: Brad Davis To: lisaleon@hawaii.edu Subject: Re: stagecraft list Someone subscribed the whole h-costume mailing list. It has been removed and you shouldn't be getting anymore Stagecraft digests. Let me know if the problem happens again. Brad Davis Stagecraft List Maintainer (owner-stagecraft@inquo.net) ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 Oct 1996 10:38:10 -0400 From: X90BARBER11@WMICH.EDU Subject: subscribe Hello. I am looking for what used to be the h-costume mailing list. I would like to subscribe again if this is the correct adress. Is the list still a mail list or does it operate differently now? Roxy Barber x90barber11@wmich.edu ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 Oct 1996 09:15:03 -0700 From: Daniel Wright Subject: Re: subscribe I have no idea . I thought ItOn Fri, 11 Oct 1996 X90BARBER11@WMICH.EDU wrote: > Hello. I am looking for what used to be the h-costume mailing list. I would > like to subscribe again if this is the correct adress. > > Is the list still a > mail list or does it operate differently now? > > Roxy Barber > x90barber11@wmich.edu > OPPS!! I have no idea !I thought it was. But have had no response but you. Danie'l Marie Wright dwright@clark.edu ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 Oct 1996 09:18:24 -0700 From: Daniel Wright Subject: Re: Eleanora of Toledo stockings On Thu, 10 Oct 1996 Jafath@AOL.COM wrote: > _Cast-On_, the magazine of The Knitting Guild of America, ran a similar > pattern (worked out by a TKGA member) a couple of years ago, but done in fine > wool. Would you find it helpful to see how someone else dealt with it? I can > send a photocopy if so. > > Jo Anne > I would love to get copies of it if you would . I'm just getting starting in this new adventure. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 Oct 1996 09:42:11 -0700 From: Daniel Wright Subject: Re: Robin Hood On Thu, 10 Oct 1996, Megan Hargreaves wrote: > Does anyone know how authentic Robin Hood: Prince of Thieves is? > I am looking at Lady Marion's dress for authenticity and I am not sure if it > is the right period as said at the start of the movie, 1100's. > > Thanks. > Megan >I believe that it's close . but to be sure most libraries have books on period clothing. I know that the library has been my best friend while I'm designing my midevil wedding gowns, cloaks, swords, ect. by the way does anyone have any ideas on maid-of-honors dress? I'm going early 13 century. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 Oct 1996 11:13:42 -0700 From: Daniel Wright Subject: Re: Hair Oils... that reminds me...! 8-) On Thu, 10 Oct 1996, The Polsons wrote: > Hello everybody. After seeing all the traffic on Hair Oils recently, I > would like to remind y'all that I am always in search of articles of > interest to living history folks. You know, things like "10 Period Recipes > for Victorian Hair Oils" or somesuch that folks could make and use in > reenactments. > > Need writer's guidelines? Lemme know and I'll forward them, or you can find > them on my web page. Oh, and as an added enticement, I PAY $$ for articles! > 8-) Thanks for indulging me this space... > > ********************************************** > Willow Polson....willow@recreating-history.com > Recreating History magazine > ..."Historic Crafts, Cooking, and Clothing"... > ----> http://www.recreating-history.com <----- > Call us toll free! 1-(888) REENACT (733-6228) > ********************************************** >most herb books have Old recipe for hair oil . I happen to have some wonderful lavander oil now. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 Oct 1996 17:01:59 -0400 From: Al De Santis Subject: wedding rings The question about which finger a wedding ring was worn, made me suddenly realise that wedding rings were worn on different fingers. Can someone give me a brief list of which finger and when up to 19th century? Send it privately if you don't want to tie up the list. thank you Alexa Fletcher al.desantis@sympatico.ca ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 Oct 1996 11:45:01 +0100 From: Maggie Percival Subject: Hair Teddy asked re not washing hair > >Maggie Percival is conducting the same "experiment", several weeks >ahead of me. How's it going Maggie? OK, for those who are interested I actually last used shampoo on my hair around twenty weeks ago. I have fine, normally dead straight hair that would have been defined as oily, and I also have very sensitive skin - both problems have been somewhat lessened since I stopped using shampoo. Most of the time my hair looks fine but to keep it out of the way at night I french plait it into three plaits (one each side and one at the back) which gives it body and a decided wave that lasts through the day in a way that would have been impossible when I used shampoo (the wave wouldn't hold then, it just fell out within an hour). For those of you who have fine hair which makes headdresses difficult to keep in place because they have a nasty tendency to slip off I also used to suffer from that problem - I don't any more. One other thing, I don't get anything like as many split ends - in fact I get very very few and although I still get my hair trimmed it gets done once every two months now and has gone ten weeks before it has needed to be neatened up. > >> From: Heather Rose Jones >> Subject: Re: Hair Oils > >> Another thing to keep in mind, in relation to this, is that our skin's oil >> glands are sensitive to what _they_ perceive as a "need" for oil >> production. In plain English, the more you wash your hair, the more oil >> will be produced. If you wash your hair on a more "historic" schedule, the >> oil glands will adjust and produce less. Absolutely right. Even at this time of year when the central heating is on my hair is coping and for those of you who say - fine but what happens if you do a lot of exercise, well, I currently do two ballet classes a week and it really hasn't made any difference. As with Teddy I give my hair a rinse with water once a week (after the more strenuous of the ballet classes) with lukewarm water - not hot. > -- Maggie Percival ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 Oct 1996 18:48:48 EDT From: "Leann W. Thompson" Subject: Introduction Hello, all -- As a new subscriber to the h-costume listserv, I thought I'd introduce myself. My name is Leann Thompson, and I am involved in living history -- specifically the mid Nineteenth Century. I've been doing living history for about four years now, and am a member of the Michigan Soldier's Aid Society. I sew my own period clothing, and am involved in research at the local museum. (Materials and construction details of the clothing in their collection is what I'm most interested in.) That's about it! Leann W. Thompson ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 Oct 1996 22:34:28 -0400 From: Gaelscot@AOL.COM Subject: some SCA stuff As the original poster on what has become two SCA-related threads, I'd like to simply restate my position on them. (I'm afraid that I haven't read all the comments on them, because I get the digest and lately they have all been far too long for my email program, so I've missed about half of the discussion.) ON T-TUNICS: What I meant by the term "t-tunic" is a simple straight shirt-like garment, with the sleeves cut either as one with the body or attached separately. What I object to is the tendency for people in the SCA to assume that this simple garment is appropriate for nearly all times and places covered by the SCA. Certainly variations on that shape ARE appropriate in many times and places, sometimes as underwear, sometimes as outer wear, for different social classes, etc. But the difference between the gored "St. Louis" shirt, for example, and a basic SCA t-tunic are quite obvious. And as my husband points out, the "SCA t-tunic" is often the only remotely period thing that the wearer has on. If a person has trews or hosen or headgear or what have you, then their garment is likely to be based on some real period, and isn't the kind of "t-tunic" I'm talking about. MEDIEVAL COSTUMING INFORMATION: I beg to differ with Lady Elizabeth -- I think that most SCA costuming information is awful, with the big exception of the stuff that's based on good, solid scholarly (non-SCA) publications. Where those don't exist, we all have to look at paintings and guess. I would certainly appreciate any recommended sources for construction of 15th century garments, if anyone has any! Gail Finke/gaelscot@aol.com PS My husband's request: pattern or description of how to make a fitted, King Rene-style surcote worn over armor. ------------------------------ End of H-COSTUME Digest - 10 Oct 1996 to 11 Oct 1996 **************************************************** From ???@??? Mon Oct 14 09:36:20 1996 Received: from brownvm.brown.edu by mail.math.TU-Berlin.DE with SMTP id AA26545 (5.67b8/IDA-1.5 for ); Sun, 13 Oct 1996 05:04:48 +0100 Message-Id: <199610130404.AA26545@mail.math.TU-Berlin.DE> Received: from BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU by BROWNVM.brown.edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with BSMTP id 2855; Sun, 13 Oct 96 00:00:06 EDT Received: from BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU (NJE origin LISTSERV@BROWNVM) by BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 7001; Sun, 13 Oct 1996 00:00:05 -0400 Date: Sun, 13 Oct 1996 00:00:01 -0400 Reply-To: Historic Costume List Sender: Historic Costume List From: Automatic digest processor Subject: H-COSTUME Digest - 11 Oct 1996 to 12 Oct 1996 To: Recipients of H-COSTUME digests There are 13 messages totalling 617 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. 12th and 13th century clothing 2. Weding Rings 3. Eleanora of Toledo stockings 4. Standards in group 5. period misconceptions 6. T-tunics 7. SCA costume sources; 13th century cut 8. Zoot Suits 9. Wanted: Pattern for lace wimple in cotton thread (3) 10. 13th century cut/T-tunics 11. 15th and 16th c. T-tunics ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 12 Oct 1996 00:09:06 -0400 From: Jafath@AOL.COM Subject: Re: 12th and 13th century clothing In a message dated 96-10-10 11:49:50 EDT, EGerds@AOL.COM writes: ><< To learn about the fabrics used, you should have a look at Crowfoot et. > al.'s _Textiles and Clothing_, which is published by HMSO under the auspices > of the Museum of London. > >> > >If you are interested in this book get a hold of a copy soon. It just went >out of print! > > But on the other hand, it's in the Edward Hamilton, Bookseller catalog I just got! Jo Anne ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 Oct 1996 22:39:48 -0700 From: Julie Adams Subject: Re: Weding Rings > From the little research I have done for my wedding, the ring was >worn on the right hand on the middle finger. The middle finger of either hand is always the only finger on which a ring is never worn in early 16th c. Germany. Don't know why, just isn't one. I have heard of wedding rings worn on the ring fingers of either the left or the right hand in this period and region. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 Oct 1996 23:42:04 -0700 From: Erin Harvey Moody Subject: Re: Eleanora of Toledo stockings If you are using Janet Arnold's article (on stockings) in 'Patterns of Fashion' on Eleanor of Toledo's tomb, you should know that she has since published an article with further evidence based on the extensive and continuing research that has been done for the last ten years since the PoF article was originally written. In the new article, she contradicts her earlier findings. For instance, the ribbons found in the tomb were originally thought to have been garters. Arnold now writes that they were wrist and ankle bindings used to keep the limbs in place after being placed in the tomb. The xray photo evidence clearly shows where the ribbons were tied against the stockings at the ankles. It is a very interesting article. I don't have the name of the book on hand, it has only been published in the last year. I am ordering a few copies, it is exclusively evidence found on the tomb clothing, and it is only published in Italian. Erin At 11:07 PM 10/8/96 -0700, you wrote: >I'm about to embark on as close a reproduction as I can make (with a few >cautious, carefully thought out adaptations) of the knitted silk stockings >from Eleanora of Toledo's tomb (1562). And I'm wondering if anyone has more >information or references that I haven't found. > ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 12 Oct 1996 17:04:12 +1000 From: Sue Dancer Subject: Re: Standards in group Don't know whether this got through the first time I sent it, as it did not appear in my mailbox. If it did I'm sorry about repeating the message. Cheers Sue I'm not in the SCA but I am a member of a group which does public re-enactments and tries to be authentic about things. 1. How do you enforce standards in a small group? By general consensus from the group and having a costumer (or costumers) who has done a lot of research. 2. Can standards increase in time? Yes they can, with both the medievial history groups I belong to I have seen the standards rise over the time I have been a member. This is due to sharing of research, patterns, the sewing skills of the various members (some are excellent sewers -- including the guys-- but some aren't, we all help each other), and other mundane things such as what fabrics you can use (even to the point of providing samples for some people) and where to buy it cheaply (as most are on a budget). >3. Can you have different standards for newcomers and old-timers? Yes, in both groups there are different standards for newcomers and old-timers. The hierachy of each group knows that you cannot have everything you need all at once. Most of us who have been in the either of the groups for a while tend to have several costumes which show the history of our time in the groups. My first costume started was a basic T-tunic made of cotton/linen, which I have embroidered since to the current costumes I have which are 12th century ladies costumes which are properbly done, right down to hand-sewing on seen sewing (hems, etc.). Mind you some the newcomers have put some of us older ones to shame by having costumes which are fully embroidered and sewn perfectly the first time. 4. How much should the experienced people do to help the newcomers? As much as possible, but encourage people to do their own reasearch. I was when I first joined the two groups. I knew basic stuff, but had some of my misconeptions sorted out. Now I am one of the people to who people come to because of my bothering to learn from people in the group and doing my own reasearch -- mainly due to the fact that one of my characters is a Christian Arab and needs to dress slightly different from the rest of the group. Both groups have handbooks which include basic costumes for both males and females, the list of basic and 'extras' equipment which is desirable, a number of people who are excellent sewers, a store of patterns (both commercial and drafted) and a decent library of assorted costuming books. 5. What do you do when there is someone who you need (he is the only one who can easily fill a specific need of the group) and he won't follow group standards? Only you can answer this one, which is most important to you? Besides no-one is that indespensible. My groups are the Knights Guild of Wessex and Mercia ( which is based in England circa 1150 to 1250)and The Companie of Knights Bachelor (basically same time period but is based in the Holy Lands). Both are Brisbane based groups and several people from other groups have used our costume resources for their own group. I have also found that some of costuming research has come from the SCA when the limited resources of the local libraries has not been up to it. My $0.02 worth -- important to some , but not so important to others. Yours sincerely Sue Dancer Mark & Sue NetMark Consultancies Pty. Ltd. Dancer. mdancer@thehub.com.au Can your PC boot from a CD-ROM? Macintosh can. These comments and questions are solely my doing. My company, colleagues, family, neighbors, gender, sex, race, creed, national origin, medieval reenactment group... bear no responsibility for the accuracy thereof. Further, I apologize in advance and retract any part of this email that in any way offends anyone, anyone's sensibilities, ancestors, cars, favorite ice cream, or points of view. This communique may add to your store of knowledge. It may not. Proceed at your own risk. (Slightly modified from an original by Ed Long). ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 12 Oct 1996 07:31:35 -0600 From: "Morgan E. Smith" Subject: Re: period misconceptions But some general bookstores DO carry costuming books. This is not a spam, but my bookstore, Blue Castle Books does try to stock costuming books. Right now we don,t have a lot, but we have carried Janet Arnold's stuff, Cut My Cote, The History of Underclothes, and other titles as we can get them. Morgan On Thu, 10 Oct 1996 EGerds@AOL.COM wrote: > > In a message dated 96-10-07 11:22:48 EDT, Gail said: > > << Hardly anyone seems to > publish accurate "how-to" stuff for the middle ages, and I think that's why > the costuming level in the SCA is so low. If you're interested in a > particular time and place, you pretty much have to go from scratch, unless > you're lucky enough to live near someone who has done the research for you. > >> > > > I would argue that there is a good amount of research published on medieval > cultures -- much of it by the SCA or SCA friendly publishers (such as > Falconwood & Moongate). Admitedly, you are not going to find this stuff at > Crown Books -- but you're not going to find much on costuming at a general > book store anyway! > > The Complete Anacronist series is also a wonderful resource, and most of the > past issues are still in print. The booklets may be small, but many of them > are full of very good information. There are lots more books I could site, > but I don't want to take up too much time or bandwidth -- > > I figure most people just stick with there old t-tunics because they are (1) > a finished costume and (2) "comfy". > > Liz Gerds > AKA Lady Elizabeth Oakwood > ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 12 Oct 1996 07:34:50 -0600 From: "Morgan E. Smith" Subject: Re: T-tunics Actually, I think this is a semantics thing. If you look at Elizabeth Wayland Barber's "Women's Work:the first 20,000 years", you'll see that she gives a set of examples of the basic garments and garment shapes, and points out that, with modifications, we are still basically wearing them. Morgan ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 12 Oct 1996 11:09:35 -0400 From: Susan Carroll-Clark Subject: SCA costume sources; 13th century cut Hi all.... On the topic of SCA costuming sources--I've never really come across that many SCA-published ones, except in connection with the Compleat Anachronist series. The four I am familiar with from that series are all anywhere from very good to excellent. The three collections of excerpts from "Seams Like Old Times" contain a good commentary on Hill and Bucknell, a good annotated costume bibliography, and various shorter articles; the one on Northern European Women's clothing is *superlative* and based on scholarly sources which are known in Sweden and other Scandinavian countries, but not over here. There is the section on basic patterns in the Known World Handbook, but the idea there is to get someone started, not provide well-researched patterns. I am also familiar with a few self-published pamphlets and articles, of which I can say none are worse than the costume books commonly found in public libraries. THESE, in fact, rather than SCA publications, seem to be the source of many SCA errors. So many libraries seem to have that book by Peacock on costume in England from 1066 to 19-something, which is really awful--he slaps together totally unrelated elements and comes up with outfits which are pure fantasy--and of course, he doesn't tell his sources. The problem in the SCA is that many folk--especially the newer ones--do not know how to do critical costume research, and so accept these drawings as fact. *** I am still trying to find out whether anyone has documentation for cutting sleeves and body as one for 13th century gowns. As I mentioned, several costume books declare that this is the way it was done, yet my research tells me that fabric beyond 27" wide was uncommon during this period, and the few remaining pieces support the idea of separately-cut sleeves. Any help? Cheers-- Susan Carroll-Clark (SCA Nicolaa de Bracton) sclark@chass.utoronto.ca ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 12 Oct 1996 18:52:41 -0400 From: Ed Safford & Carol Kocian Subject: Re: Zoot Suits Liz Gerds wrote, >Working at AlterYears this is a question that we get about 6 to 10 times a >year. Unfortunately, while there is still a company who makes Zoot Suits, >there is no available pattern. I've tracked down a maker of Zoot Suits - El Pachuco of Fullerton, CA. Phone is (714) 526-3743. He makes suits for swing dancers. I don't know how helpful he will be or whether he sells patterns, but there you have it. -Carol Kocian *^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^* This account is shared by Carol Kocian and Ed Safford. Carol can also be e-mailed at ckocian@epe.org Ed can be reached at ecsaffor@ingr.com ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 12 Oct 1996 20:05:14 -0400 From: Ann McGrath Subject: Wanted: Pattern for lace wimple in cotton thread Hello all, I hope that one or more of you can help Bridgette with information on her question about lace wimples, and crochet patterns that could be used to create one. Please address your replies to Bridgette at: Thanks very much. ==BEGIN=QUOTE==== Subject: CP:) Lace wimple Date: Sat, 12 Oct 1996 00:29:28 -0400 From: Bridgette Redman To: crochet partners Hi! I have kind of an unusual question. Has anyone ever seen a pattern for a wimple made with cotton thread? I might be costuming a show in the spring and all of the costumes are 11th century. I know crochet doesn't go back that far, but we won't be having completely authentic costuming. I thought that if I could find it, a threaded white wimple attached over black cotton or black velvet would look gorgeous on a stage and stand out nicely. So, has anyone seen anything like this? Thanks! Bridgette redman@arq.net ====END=QUOTE==== -- Ann A. McGrath email: mcgrath@enter.net Jewelry Design voice: (610)253-7588 Easton, PA 18042 A bead! A bead! My kingdom for a bead! ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 12 Oct 1996 18:02:12 -0700 From: Julie Adams Subject: Re: 13th century cut/T-tunics >I am still trying to find out whether anyone has documentation for cutting >sleeves and body as one for 13th century gowns. As I mentioned, several >costume books declare that this is the way it was done, yet my research tells >me that fabric beyond 27" wide was uncommon during this period, and the few >remaining pieces support the idea of separately-cut sleeves. Any help? You might want to look through the H-costume archives (where ever they are now!) There was an intense thread on period loooms and weaving about a year ago, several people proved to my mindthat looms were much wider than 27" in that period in northern Europe. I remember that many references were quoted from archeolicals digs describing 13th and 14th c looms which were much much wider than 27". I can't remember the exact widths but I believe they were comparable or even wider than modern widths. The other thing to note is that many early period "T" cuts have the selvage and a seam at the Center Front and Center back. This provides 4 seams to allow a semi-fitted garment, and gores are easily inserted in the center front and back to make the skirts fuller if needed. Cut like this, widths of 36"-45" would allow enough sleeve for most people. My late 15th and 16th c. examples are luckily in an era of artistic realism and seams are very carefully depicted. Julie Adams ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 12 Oct 1996 18:32:24 -0700 From: Heather Rose Jones Subject: Re: Wanted: Pattern for lace wimple in cotton thread > From: Bridgette Redman > > I have kind of an unusual question. Has anyone ever seen a pattern for a > wimple made with cotton thread? I might be costuming a show in the > spring and all of the costumes are 11th century. I know crochet doesn't > go back that far, but we won't be having completely authentic costuming. > I thought that if I could find it, a threaded white wimple attached over > black cotton or black velvet would look gorgeous on a stage and stand > out nicely. The important question is, how "not completely authentic" is the costuming meant to be? I don't mean that as a snide question -- simply as, are you doing a deliberate "costumes from one era reinterpreted in another era" or do you simply mean that effect, rather than accuracy of detail, is important? As you note, crochet doesn't belong to the 11th century, but more to the point, wimples in the medieval period weren't done in any form of lace at all. (I don't know if there was any overlap in late uses of wimples with early uses of lace where such a thing might have occurred.) As part of a deliberate theatrical "look" there's certainly no reason why you couldn't do such a thing, but if you're thinking of crochet as "an easy way to make a lace wimple" then the fact that wimples weren't made of lace in the 11th century may save you even more work. Heather Rose Jones ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 12 Oct 1996 23:04:34 -0400 From: Kelly A Rinne Subject: Re: Wanted: Pattern for lace wimple in cotton thread I also have the same concerns that Heather does. My big question is: wimples are traditionally cut on the bias. Lace/crochet usually can't give you the drape you need. How are you planning to cut this? Kelly (who is all over conceptualism in costume design:) meaning that its' a good thing!) On Sat, 12 Oct 1996, Heather Rose Jones wrote: > > From: Bridgette Redman > > > > I have kind of an unusual question. Has anyone ever seen a pattern for a > > wimple made with cotton thread? I might be costuming a show in the > > spring and all of the costumes are 11th century. I know crochet doesn't > > go back that far, but we won't be having completely authentic costuming. > > I thought that if I could find it, a threaded white wimple attached over > > black cotton or black velvet would look gorgeous on a stage and stand > > out nicely. > > The important question is, how "not completely authentic" is the costuming > meant to be? I don't mean that as a snide question -- simply as, are you > doing a deliberate "costumes from one era reinterpreted in another era" or > do you simply mean that effect, rather than accuracy of detail, is > important? As you note, crochet doesn't belong to the 11th century, but > more to the point, wimples in the medieval period weren't done in any form > of lace at all. (I don't know if there was any overlap in late uses of > wimples with early uses of lace where such a thing might have occurred.) > As part of a deliberate theatrical "look" there's certainly no reason why > you couldn't do such a thing, but if you're thinking of crochet as "an > easy way to make a lace wimple" then the fact that wimples weren't made of > lace in the 11th century may save you even more work. > > Heather Rose Jones > ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 12 Oct 1996 20:52:06 -0700 From: Julie Adams Subject: Re: 15th and 16th c. T-tunics Caroline wrote: >I too have looked at hundreds of pictures and she seems to be seeing >things I have never seen, or we are seeing the same things and giving them >different labels! This may be true, so to be more exact I dug up some references in some fairly common sources, I have redefined my "T-tunic" definition a little after thinking about all those "SCA" t-tunics I have seen:-) My definition is maybe a bit broader than yours, Caroline, but includes garments that are cut so if you laid out the body and sleeves, the sleeves would form a "T" at the shoulders, whether cut in one piece or pieced together. Like Heather Rose Jones, mentioned, it is often created by tracing around a shirt or Tshirt. In the early 16th c. T-tunic, there is often a seam down the center front and back. In my definition there is a variety of necklines. There is no gathering around the armscyes allowed in my definition, but gores added to the body to add fullness to the skirts are ok, but not separate skirts. Tailoring the sleeves in at the cuff is ok. Splitting the tunic down the front or sides is ok. Normally they are from the top of the thigh to floor length, with the majority residing in the mid-thigh range in length. Often worn with a belt. My definition is based on styles that I would see many "standard" SCAers wearing. I will hold to my original statement: >A nice woven wool tunic in a natural color with subtle decoration, such as >a >twisted cord couched around the neck and hem, along with a linen >undershirt >really can be flexible for many periods depending on headwear, >shoes and >leggings. It may not be the height of fashion for the nobility >during all those >periods, but it would still be a "period" style for some >of the lower and >middle classes for many countries and eras from 1000 to >1550 or so. These tunics are still worn with the short-caped hood still into the 16th c., a style I normally associate with the 14th c. or earlier. Some of the later period examples, such as those from the Book of Trades are more likely to show the tunics worn over various pluderhosen and full breeches instead of the tighter hosen/fitted breeches. Certainly these examples are open for interpretation, but I would say that if I saw someone make an interpretation of these as a T-cut tunic, it would be no more invalid than any other, where period fabrics, decorations and construction techniques were used. If I were a judge and they provided me this documentation for a 16th c. peasant or working class tradesman, I would be hard put to argue it. For here amongst the puffed and slashed and fitted, the skirted and pleated, are simple tunics abound. In "Herr und Knecht" the book goes from about 1100 to 1570s, comparing the relationship of peasants to their landowners, so its easy to look at the tunics shown for 1150 and then turn right to the ones for 1530. Darn if those tunics don't look like the same garment to me. Here are some for you all to look up: The Triumph of Maximillian (about 1510) - Plates 132-137 The Baggage Train Etchings and Engravings of Albrecht Durer - Peasant and Wife at Market - Bearing of the Cross - Three Peasants in Conversation - Rustic Couple - The Ill-assorted Couple or The offer of Love - Coat of Arms with Skull Also look at Durer's early woodcuts Authentic Everyday Dress of the Renaissance All 154 Plates from the "Trachtenbuch" by Christopher Weiditz (Dover Press) (1530s-1560s) Plate XXIX &XXX Spanish Peasant Ploughing Plate XXXII. Cleaning Corn in Spain Plate XXXIV Transporting Corn and Flour in Spain Plate XXXV & XXXVI Castilian waterseller Plate LXVII Escort of a noble woman in Barcelona Plates CXII-CXII Various Basque Women - the overshirt Bruegel: Twelve Proverbs (there are at least two) The flight between Carnival and Lent - 1559 - the man in a long pink gown up front left - fellow in pale yellow dancing at left edge and man in gray behind him - man blue/gray carrying jugs or baskets in top left near plague doctors - man with son in top right wearing blue/gray Childrens Games - 1560 - various children The Month of August-the Corn Harvest 1565 - The shirts of all the men working. St. John the Babtist preaching in the wilderness - man in gold in front of young landsknecht - man in blue far right Vecellio's Renaissanc Costume Book (Dover Press) mostly late 16th c. - 132 Scappoli - Venician sailor - 138, 139 Venetian Porters and Stevedores - 311 Bohemian Commoner Martin Schoengauer - A Wise Virgin Pieter van der Heyden - The Thin Kitchen Barthel Beham - Peasant Holiday Sebald Beham - Church Anniversary Holiday at Mogelsdorf Herr und Knecht by Hartmut Zwahr (German Publication) - Many woodcuts by Johann Grieninger from Strasburg c. 1502 p. 96,110, 154, 155, - Martin Schongauer 1483 Stehendes Madchen - Albrecht Durer 1490 Junges Madchen - Lucas van Leyden 1520 Uylenspiegel - Hans Sebald Beham 1526 Verlorene Muhe - Hans Sebald Beham 1544 Fahnrich und Trommier (the Drummer) - Erhard Schoen 1533 Das Schlaraffenland The Book of Trades - Jost Amman (Dover Press) - Fig 2,3, 6,7 by Ulm Master - Six mechanical arts - 1475 - Fig 17 and 18 from Les Ordonnances de Paris - Scenes of Trade: Timber Haulers and Charcoal Burners - 1500/01 - Fig 24 - A nail maker 1529 - Fig 25 - A Shoemaker 1531 >From the works published in 1568 - The Pilgrims - The Lawyer (person approaching) - The papermaker (the apprentice) - The Goldsmith (front guy) - The Huntsman - The Farmer (sitting down) - The Brushmaker - The Grinder (standing) - The Ropemaker (standing) - The Fisherman - The Wiredrawer (standing) Caroline wrote: >I would not call a woman's bodice with sleeves built-in >sleeves but separate skirts a T-tunic, and unless the sleeves have the >characteristic folds you get with a T-tunic, I would assume the sleeves >seams were there in the original but obscured in the picture. Women's bodices with those characteristic "t-tunic" folds at the armpits are seen over and over in Durer and other artists of the late 15th/early 16th c. I don't call them T-tunics, but they are clearly an evolution of that cut. Many of these gowns (1490-1520 Germany) do not even have separate skirts, but have gores set in at the front, sides and backs, The gores are set high in the front and cartridge pleated from breast to waist. The fitting about the bustline is often done with strings which often tie above and below the breast. In this period, particularly in the etchings and drypoints, every seam is quite evident, and sometimes the stitching too. About early 16th c men's hose/breeches, I wrote: >They were held up by strings which drew in the waists. Caroline wrote: >For example, I have never seen a >gathered waist on a pair of hose (tho' you do see them on braies - perhaps >that is what she means) - I don't think gathered waists *ever* came in for >men! Even fashionable wear in the late 16th and 17th century, when men's >hose became very full, is pointed to the upper garment! I apologize! Thanks Caroline for keeping me on my toes. I certainly was not clear on this in my original statement,(though I said nothing about "gathered waists"). The strings are in the center front which draw in the center front gap (the gap is usually partially covered by the codpiece). The strings hold the waistband of the hose/breeches together and are used to size the waist to fit. Just like modern mens' pants, they don't fall down because they fit (well unless the gentleman has nothing to hold them up:-) Over and over one can see men in hose which often have points dangling all about, but are usually only tied in the front, if at all. My husband never ties his points unless at a formal dress event, just due to the practicality of toiletry. When hose are all tied up to an underdoublet or pourpoint, to use the toilet, one must either untie all those points and retie them, or one must strip all the outer garments off to then get the underdoublet off as well (it works kind of like overalls). If left attached, and toiletry requires sitting, the body of the garment might drag on the ground, not to mention all the over doublets/Rocks,and weapons laying about. This is really dangerous from both a cleanliness and a theft point of view in any public men's restroom or at portapotties at Renn Faires. Anyway, the inconvenience causes him to avoid tying up all those points, but the breeches/hose stay on anyway (not having real servants to help...) These breeches/hose can be seen in the Corn Harvest painting by Breugel quite clearly. I imagine the Breugel peasants had the same lack of servants problem:-) Now if we could just convince some of the poly-cotton crowd to buy some nice wool and linen.... Julie Adams -- Ain't this research stuff just a hoot? ------------------------------ End of H-COSTUME Digest - 11 Oct 1996 to 12 Oct 1996 **************************************************** From ???@??? Mon Oct 14 09:36:20 1996 Received: from brownvm.brown.edu by mail.math.TU-Berlin.DE with SMTP id AA29526 (5.67b8/IDA-1.5 for ); Mon, 14 Oct 1996 05:05:36 +0100 Message-Id: <199610140405.AA29526@mail.math.TU-Berlin.DE> Received: from BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU by BROWNVM.brown.edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with BSMTP id 3398; Mon, 14 Oct 96 00:00:57 EDT Received: from BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU (NJE origin LISTSERV@BROWNVM) by BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 2863; Mon, 14 Oct 1996 00:00:56 -0400 Date: Mon, 14 Oct 1996 00:00:54 -0400 Reply-To: Historic Costume List Sender: Historic Costume List From: Automatic digest processor Subject: H-COSTUME Digest - 12 Oct 1996 to 13 Oct 1996 To: Recipients of H-COSTUME digests There are 10 messages totalling 327 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. French 16th C. 2. 16th C. costumes 3. 13th Century Cut/T-Tunics 4. SCA Stuff (2) 5. H-COSTUME archives? (2) 6. digest 7. Wanted: Pattern for lace wimple in cotton thread 8. Eleanora of Toledo stockings ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 14 Oct 1996 16:57:08 +1000 From: "P. M. Ostwald" Subject: French 16th C. Some time ago I asked for help looking for 16th century french costumes. Armed with the suggestions from the list, I found the following references. (I didn't get hold of all the suggested refs. I'm still looking for some) The Valois Tapestries, F. A. Yates, (Routledge & Kegan Paul, London, 1975) Shows both full shots and details of the Valois tapestries plus a series of small reproductions of 16th C. costume woodcuts by De Bruyn and Lucas de Heere for comparison. The costume pictures in the tapestries themselves are clear images. It is suggested that portraits were copied of the French royalty for the larger images, but the clothes were taken from costume portraits (or directly from clothes) by an artist who was particularly interested the popular costume manuals of the day. Detailing on these larger figures is good, down to the buttons on Catherine de Medici's bodice. Unfortunately, all the pictures are in black and white.(thanks Etienette, for pointing out this book!) Jean Clouet, P. Mellen, (Phaidon, London, 1971). A collection of the court artist Jean Clouet's sketches and portraits. Clouet was artist for Francious 1st court, and died in 1541. His son Francois Clouet also painted court portraits until his death in 1572. The book is full of lots of gorgeous chalk sketches reminiscent of Holbein. Alas, head and shoulders almost exclusively, and not much costume detail except for hats and french hoods. Still, a good collection of images of 1530-1540 noble headwear. Mostly B&W images, plus a few from son Francois Clouet, that look very promising, costumewise. Prince of the Renaissance (the life of Francois I) D. Seward, (Constable, London, 1973). There are a number of learned texts on Francois, but most without images. This book is full of pictures, and contains a number of portraits of Francois, his family and his mistresses. Most of the Diane de Portiers images are nude portraits (not very useful for costuming!) but the rest are good. Mostly in colour. Catherine de' Medici, H. R. Williamson (Michael Joseph, London, 1973). Another image heavy life of Queen Catherine book. Contains (among other images) portraits of the royal family, plus several colour pictures of the Valois tapestries. A useful collection of costume portraits, mostly upper torso only, but many in colour. Hope this information is of interest. Thanks for everyones help. Tricia ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Patricia Ostwald Newcastle Mater Hospital Medical Physicist Locked Bag 7 Radiation Oncology Department Newcastle Region Mail Centre 2310, NSW, Australia ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 14 Oct 1996 16:57:16 +1000 From: "P. M. Ostwald" Subject: 16th C. costumes Now that I've seen the images of 16th century French costumes, mentioned in my previous post I have a few questions. Several of the images show back shots (very useful for seeing what the back of the costume looks like). None of these show a join up the back, though many of the costumes do not show a front opening either. I'd made 1540s Tudor (Jane Seymour style) twice now, once with a back lacing (which I'm inclined to think was wrong) and once with a front opening covered by a flap of material which then fastens at the side. (Jane Seymour apparently fastened her bodice at the side front with tiny gold headed pins) My question is, has anyone else tried the Jane Seymour costume, and how was it fastened. Was the side fastening successful (mine bunches). Do pins actually stay in , or was this an example of a costume for people who didn't intend to move around much. I'd really like to get this look right. Second question: French Hoods. The Clouet portraits of the 1540s Hoods all show ties under the chin. I've used this in my French hood, which attaches over a small cap, but it still drifts backward. That fall of velvet/velveteen at the back is very heavy and the hood itself is not well balanced. I have to keep settling it forward. Any ideas, suggestions? What about those Elizabethan versions of the French Hood which perches on the back of the hair? It is pinned to the hair ? (I've never noticed this in any portraits) How? I'd love to see more SCA folk wearing headress but I can't very well comment until I get it right myself. And since I'm on the topic of headgear, Hennins are likewise really difficult to keep on the head (and lets not mention - not really good for fitting in small cars either. Difficult to drive in a Hennin:-) I've used the Flemish version of the hennin which has a black velvet flap in front of the steeple shape, and a black velvet v shaped section, centre front, for repositioning the hat. This is likewise unbalanced and difficult to keep on. Did they just use lots of pins? How are they attached so that no hair shows? Is this something to do with the change in hair texture due to lack of washing? I know pins just slide out of my hair, which is pretty fine. Yes, I know I ask lots of questions. If I ever find a topic I know the answers to I will - but I haven't seen one yet :-( Tricia (Journeyman costumer) ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Patricia Ostwald Newcastle Mater Hospital Medical Physicist Locked Bag 7 Radiation Oncology Department Newcastle Region Mail Centre 2310, NSW, Australia ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 13 Oct 1996 02:53:34 -0500 From: "I. Marc Carlson" Subject: Re: 13th Century Cut/T-Tunics > >... >The other thing to note is that many early period "T" cuts have the selvage >and a seam at the Center Front and Center back. This provides 4 seams to >allow a semi-fitted garment, and gores are easily inserted in the center >front and back to make the skirts fuller if needed. Cut like this, widths >of 36"-45" would allow enough sleeve for most people. >... I've been reading this set of threads with some interest. While I certainly have not done the research on the illustrations as other people here, and I realize the problems that can occur when using a single item as a "standard", but I am currently sitting with a schematic of the Bocksten Man's tunic (in Nockert, Margareta. Bockstenmannen och hans drakt) and it clearly illustrates a single piece torso, with separate sleeves, attached at the shoulder, and seams at the bottom. There are gores inserted front, back and at the sides, as well as inserts in the underarms. There is not a speck of trim or any other decoration (unless you count the holes from where the body was pinned to the ground after he was killed). The clothes are estimated to be anywhere from 1320-1360. The first person to study the remains, Dr. Albert Sadklef, suggested that he may have been a royal representative who dissapeared about 1360. For what it's worth, the main torso piece of the tunic only shows one selvage and is about 55 cm wide (or about 23 inches). The cloak, however, is clearly pieced together from a length of cloth that is 380 cm x 60 cm (13+ feet x 25 inches). I. Marc Carlson, Reference Librarian |LIB_IMC@CENTUM.UTULSA.EDU Tulsa Community College, West Campus LRC| Reference Tech. McFarlin Library | University of Tulsa, 2933 E. 6th St. | Tulsa, OK 74104-3123 (918) 631-3794 | ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 13 Oct 1996 18:18:52 +1000 From: acacia@GIL.COM.AU Subject: Re: SCA Stuff Greetings from Acacia Well here comes this old chestnut out again. The SCA is a very large world wide organisation with quite a variety of skills levels in it. We go from those who have first picked up a needle through to those who write scholarly thesises on their area of interest. The publications put out by the SCA are aimed at a number of different levels. Some are simple for beginners most are not - anyone at Laurel level (highest award for arts and sciences) I have always found to be extemely well researched and very open to discussion in their field of interest. Generalisations aimed at such a big society often go very wide of the mark and indeed can be very insulting. How about, in the interest of friendly discussion, that we all try and avoid them. ="="="="="="="="="="="="="="="="="="="="="="="="="="="="="="="="="="="="=" Acacia d'Navarre (Chris d'Aquino) St Florian-della-Riviere, Lochac, West Kingdom (Brisbane, Queensland, Australia) Acacia@gil.com.au ="="="="="="="="="="="="="="="="="="="="="="="="="="="="="="="="="="="="=" ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 13 Oct 1996 09:06:06 -0400 From: Kelly A Rinne Subject: Re: SCA Stuff Then again, all sca commentary could stay on the sca.rec.newsgroup... Kel On Sun, 13 Oct 1996 acacia@GIL.COM.AU wrote: > Greetings from Acacia > > Well here comes this old chestnut out again. > > The SCA is a very large world wide organisation with quite a variety of > skills levels in it. We go from those who have first picked up a needle > through to those who write scholarly thesises on their area of interest. The > publications put out by the SCA are aimed at a number of different levels. > Some are simple for beginners most are not - anyone at Laurel level (highest > award for arts and sciences) I have always found to be extemely well > researched and very open to discussion in their field of interest. > > Generalisations aimed at such a big society often go very wide of the mark > and indeed can be very insulting. How about, in the interest of friendly > discussion, that we all try and avoid them. > > ="="="="="="="="="="="="="="="="="="="="="="="="="="="="="="="="="="="="=" > Acacia d'Navarre (Chris d'Aquino) > St Florian-della-Riviere, Lochac, West Kingdom (Brisbane, Queensland, Australia) > Acacia@gil.com.au > ="="="="="="="="="="="="="="="="="="="="="="="="="="="="="="="="="="="="=" > ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 13 Oct 1996 11:26:02 -0400 From: Susan Carroll-Clark Subject: H-COSTUME archives? Hi again... My thanks to Julie for the pointers towards the archives. Now, anyone know where they've put all of the old h-costume stuff? I've been on this list since its inception and lived through two or three moves and would be very interested in being able to download some of the threads I remember. cheers-- Susan Carroll-Clark sclark@chass.utoronto.ca ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 13 Oct 1996 12:45:29 -0400 From: Tess Parrish Subject: digest How do you get on the digest? I prefer getting my mail this way. Tess ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 13 Oct 1996 18:15:45 -0400 From: Ann McGrath Subject: Re: Wanted: Pattern for lace wimple in cotton thread My thanks for answering Bridgette's question. Thought you all might want to hear what she decided about crocheting a lace wimple. Bridgette Redman wrote: > > Ann, > Thank you again for your kindness in forwarding this to your costume > list. They truly have responded in a quick and wonderful fashion. > Although the answers were not what I expected, they were certainly what > I needed. The two responses that you have sent me have convinced me > that I'm going off in the wrong direction. I sure am glad the show is > six months away!! It was a nice idea, and I might try it for myself > sometime, but I'm going to turn to a different tack for the show. If > lace wasn't used at all during the 11th century, then I'll stay away > from it. > > Thank you again! > Bridgette -- Ann A. McGrath email: mcgrath@enter.net Jewelry Design voice: (610)253-7588 Easton, PA 18042 A bead! A bead! My kingdom for a bead! ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 13 Oct 1996 22:35:20 EDT From: Eric Praetzel Subject: Re: H-COSTUME archives? > My thanks to Julie for the pointers towards the archives. Now, anyone know > where they've put all of the old h-costume stuff? I've been on this list I have not seen any such posting yet! The archives for 93, 94, 95, 96 are on my account accessable in two ways. The files are zip compressed sorted by year. You can get them by anonymous ftp from ece.uwaterloo.ca in pub/jpeg/hcostume (or h-costume??) Or if you worm your way thru my web pages http://ece.uwaterloo.ca/~praetzel if you actually go to ~praetzel/hobby about half way down it will have a pointer to the anon. ftp. area and clicking on that should bring your web browser up into ftp protocal ie clicking and draging a file or whatever; will download it. Of course the ultimate fun is going to be in searching thru an entire one year archive to find what you want. Haveing a good search program helps. Random note about linen and bleech. After washing with bleech my linen still smells like bleech. Another wash seems to cure that. I'm going to go for a nice puffy shirt for my new doublets. I'll probalby try bleeching it some more to see how it takes it and to see if it gets it any cleaner. Also; if anyone knows how long it takes to sew 300 pearls onto a doublet; don't tell me! Eric Praetzel, http://ece.uwaterloo.ca/~praetzel ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 13 Oct 1996 23:04:39 -0400 From: Jafath@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Eleanora of Toledo stockings Tell ya what -- Anyone who wants a copy of the "Eleanora's Stockings" knitting pattern can send me a SASE (number 10 size). Send it to: Jo Anne Fatherly 249R Powell Avenue Newburgh, NY 12550 I made a bunch of copies today, so I should be able to get it back to you fairly quickly. ------------------------------ End of H-COSTUME Digest - 12 Oct 1996 to 13 Oct 1996 **************************************************** From ???@??? Tue Oct 15 10:53:38 1996 Received: from brownvm.brown.edu by mail.math.TU-Berlin.DE with SMTP id AA09317 (5.67b8/IDA-1.5 for ); Tue, 15 Oct 1996 05:06:34 +0100 Message-Id: <199610150406.AA09317@mail.math.TU-Berlin.DE> Received: from BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU by BROWNVM.brown.edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with BSMTP id 9570; Tue, 15 Oct 96 00:01:29 EDT Received: from BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU (NJE origin LISTSERV@BROWNVM) by BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 8139; Tue, 15 Oct 1996 00:01:28 -0400 Date: Tue, 15 Oct 1996 00:01:22 -0400 Reply-To: Historic Costume List Sender: Historic Costume List From: Automatic digest processor Subject: H-COSTUME Digest - 13 Oct 1996 to 14 Oct 1996 To: Recipients of H-COSTUME digests There are 12 messages totalling 317 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. 1630 Cavalier 2. 1540s gowns and french hoods 3. Mourning Attire 4. 5. lace wimples (2) 6. Raiments/AlterYears 7. photo of crepe paper dresses 8. persian surcoats 9. catalogue request (fwd) 10. [Fwd: Re: Wanted: Pattern for lace wimple in cotton thread] 11. how does it close? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 14 Oct 1996 09:04:09 -0400 From: Sharron Fina Subject: 1630 Cavalier I have a question about an era which is not often addressed here. My son is a fencer, and is completing a new outfit (French). The doublet is blue twill with silver buttons, and the pantaloons of the same fabric have a row of closures down the side of each leg. Our question is, do the buttons on the doublet differ from the buttons on the pantaloons or must they match? The illustration we are using as a guide (from "The history of Costume" by Braun) is not detailed enough to determine what the buttons looked like, just that there are buttons. Thanks for any assistance you can give. Sharron Fina sfina@retina.anatomy.upenn.edu ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 14 Oct 1996 13:28:00 +0100 From: Maggie Percival Subject: 1540s gowns and french hoods Hello Tricia, There are one or two Holbein sketches of the period which do suggest that there was a seam at the back. Certainly one sketch - dated 1527 - shows a back seam and another - dated 1541 - hints at the same. > I'd made 1540s Tudor (Jane Seymour style) >twice now, once with a back lacing (which I'm inclined to think was wrong) I agree with you >and once with a front opening covered by a flap of material which then >fastens at the side. (Jane Seymour apparently fastened her bodice at the >side front with tiny gold headed pins) OK, I am in the process of completing a 1540s gown - not based on a particular painting but based on observations of a number of portraits - all by Holbein. Sometimes you need to look back in time to find the answers. There is a Holbein sketch of the More family (which is earlier than the Jane Seymour portrait) which gives a hint as to how these gowns were fastened. I have surmised that the gowns were fastened at the front (as is seen on the More family portrait) but in order to hide the lacings a stomacher was secured on top which I suspect was pinned on both sides. I have seen no evidence to suggest that the gowns were laced at the side. Caroline - if you're reading this you might have a comment on this one. > > >Second question: French Hoods. The Clouet portraits of the 1540s Hoods all >show ties under the chin. I've used this in my French hood, which attaches >over a small cap, but it still drifts backward. That fall of >velvet/velveteen at the back is very heavy and the hood itself is not well >balanced. I have to keep settling it forward. I'm slightly nervous about replying to this one as this is another area that I am experimenting with and I think I have a solution. It's very complicated to explain but I suspect the key to the French Hood lies in the way you arrange your hair. Remember that the ladies of the day wore their hair very long (or as long as it would grow). Looking at the portraits the suggestion is that the undercaps were very close fitting at the top of the neck - too close fitting to allow hair to be coiled away down there. Coil it at the back of the head and the resulting bulge prevents the black velvet at the back hanging straight; if, however, you coil it at the back of the top of the head you can actually extend the platform upon which your headdress is sitting. Hope you're with me so far. So you have your plaits/coils whatever forming this additional 'platform' at the back of the top of your head. Over this you place your cap (and the indication is that they were cut to fit closely). There is quite a lot of evidence to suggest that this was held in place by a strip of fabric (there is a sketch thought to be of Queen Anne Boleyn by Holbein which shows this rather well). Now comes a bit I am nervous about - I suspect that this same strip of fabric may have been the filler in part between the two billements (the back and front jewelled bands). For those of you who are somewhat skeptical about this there are two portraits that hint at it. One is the portrait thought to be of Queen Catherine Howard (though that is now open to question I understand) and the other is a pair of miniatures thought to be of the same queen - all are by Holbein. One of those miniatures shows a tell tale white flash between the coloured band of fabric and the hindmost of the two billments. The first mentioned portrait (which shows a lady in black with large padded sleeve showing what appears to be gold and black undersleeves) also shows the front edge of what appears to be a strip of white (or off white) fabric between the two billements. The front billement is placed at the front of the white undercap (and the indication from the portraits is that they were tight fitting - you can actually see them pressing into the cap quite clearly in some paintings) which helps to hold the whole lot in place. The back billement goes in front of the coils of arranged hair at the back of the head and helps to secure the velvet hood as well as holding the whole thing in place. I have actually done a rough version of this and it stayed in place quite securely without the use of any ties though ties could be used for additional security if you wanted to. By the way folks, please note I am talking about French Hoods found in the English court circa 1540. They did change in style quite a lot throughout the Tudor era. Incidentally a more detailed explanation of this is due to appear in THE MANTLE in either issue 4 or issue 5. OK, right, I've said my bit (very nervously), and I've got an awful feeling that a lot of you out there may disagree. I am not trying to say that this is how it was done, it may have been done this way it may not, but believe me this does appear to work and the resulting headdress looks right. My hair is not terribly long (and as some of you may recall has not been washed with shampoo for some time), but it is just long enough to plait up and secure to the top of the back of my head. > > >Is this something to do with the change in hair texture due to lack of >washing? I know pins just slide out of my hair, which is pretty fine. I must admit that I have asked the same question quite a few times since I stopped shampooing my hair. > Maggie Percival another journeyman costumer (for historical dress) although I'm told that I'm only allowed to enter on Master level for SF and Fantasy costume. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 14 Oct 1996 11:18:20 -0400 From: "Penny E. Ladnier" Subject: Mourning Attire I am looking for a good source for mourning attire for a gentleman around 1895. Can anyone suggest a source? Penny E. Ladnier, Virginia Commonwealth University s0peladn@erols.com http://www.geocities.com/BourbonStreet/2157 "If it is out there, I'll find it..." ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 14 Oct 1996 09:17:50 -0700 From: Daniel Wright Subject: Good Day my LOrds and Ladies, I'm in a quest for l9ovly patterns of wedding garb of the late 1100 centery to early 1300 as well as knowledge of handfastings ceramonies. your help will be much apperiencated. Danie'l Marie Wright dwright@clark.edu ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 31 May 2009 11:16:59 -0500 From: Anne Reaves Subject: lace wimples No! Never cut lace to shape! First, needlelace and bobbin lace seem to have developed in the late fifteenth century, as edgings which could be removed from fabric and reused on other garments. Second, if people must crochet hair nets for 16th c styles, remind them that the few hairnets were netted with that distinctive filet lace knot at the intersection. Crocheting in 19th c style snoods from the center radiating outwards is not appropriate for 16th faking it; filet crochet is closer in appearance. For the 11th century, cover that hair with solid fabric and a veil unless you are depicting an unmarried girl (who might also have concealed that hair). ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 14 Oct 1996 13:21:49 -0400 From: Stacey Weinberger Subject: Raiments/AlterYears New Text Item: -No Subject- Greetings All, I heard rumor that Raiments/AlterYears was going out of business! Does anybody know about this? Is it true? Stacey ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 14 Oct 1996 13:09:31 -0500 From: Teresa Shannon Subject: Re: lace wimples [snipped message] > filet crochet is closer in appearance. For the 11th century, cover that > hair with solid fabric and a veil unless you are depicting an unmarried > girl (who might also have concealed that hair). ...or a prostitute, young queen or saint. Teresa ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 14 Oct 1996 13:58:00 -0500 From: Deb Subject: photo of crepe paper dresses There is a B&W photo of 7 young girls (maybe age 12 ?) in crepe paper dresses made for a school play. Dated 1932. They were apparently portraying flowers. Some dresses have petals (about 5") all over, some have a smooth top with dropped waist and petals below that (daffodils??) Mar/Apr 1996 issue of "Country Woman" magazine, p56 Country Woman c/o Reiman Publications Box 989 Greendale, WI 53129 (414) 423-0100 I have no idea where to find this magazine, other than the address in the front of it, and in my doctor's waiting room! Deb <=========================================================> < Deb Baddorf baddorf@fnal.gov Costumer, RevWar re-enactor ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 14 Oct 1996 12:43:00 -0700 From: Catherine.Keegan@NCAL.KAIPERM.ORG Subject: persian surcoats I've seen references to an outer garment called a Persian Surcoat in various books, most memborably _Pillars of the Earth_. I've seen a redrawing in a book on costuming for the stage, but without any reference as to where an example of the garment could be found. I believe it's supposed to be 12th or 13th century. Does anyone know of a depiction of this supposed crusade-inspired overcoat? It was supposed to have made it as far as Ile-de-France. Catherine Keegan syscxk@ncal.kaiperm.org ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 14 Oct 1996 18:06:03 -0400 From: Gretchen M Beck Subject: catalogue request (fwd) ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Mon, 14 Oct 96 14:57:40 UT From: Anastasia Coulianos-Mulvoy To: h-costume-request@andrew.cmu.edu Subject: catalogue request I am interested in receiving a catalogue. Please send to Michael Mulvoy 67 Bellevue Hill Road West Roxbury, MA 0232 Thank you. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 14 Oct 1996 19:51:02 -0400 From: Ann McGrath Subject: [Fwd: Re: Wanted: Pattern for lace wimple in cotton thread] Note: This is a resend; I received a msg that the mail was undeliverable because the mailbox is full. Ann McGrath wrote: My thanks for answering Bridgette's question. Thought you all might want to hear what she decided about crocheting a lace wimple. > Bridgette Redman wrote: > > Ann, > Thank you again for your kindness in forwarding this to your costume > list. They truly have responded in a quick and wonderful fashion. > Although the answers were not what I expected, they were certainly what > I needed. The two responses that you have sent me have convinced me > that I'm going off in the wrong direction. I sure am glad the show is > six months away!! It was a nice idea, and I might try it for myself > sometime, but I'm going to turn to a different tack for the show. If > lace wasn't used at all during the 11th century, then I'll stay away > from it. > > Thank you again! > Bridgette -- Ann A. McGrath email: mcgrath@enter.net Jewelry Design voice: (610)253-7588 Easton, PA 18042 A bead! A bead! My kingdom for a bead! ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 14 Oct 1996 21:13:31 -0400 From: SyRilla@AOL.COM Subject: how does it close? Hello, my wise friends, I would first like to thank everyone for the help that you have given me over this year. I have so much enjoyed, and learned so much in this short time. I have another question. I have seen (in pictures) womens' mid to late 1500's dress with back princess seam. I think it was in Janet Arnold book. Where or how does it close? Thanks, Kimberly ------------------------------ End of H-COSTUME Digest - 13 Oct 1996 to 14 Oct 1996 **************************************************** From ???@??? Wed Oct 16 10:26:44 1996 Received: from brownvm.brown.edu by mail.math.TU-Berlin.DE with SMTP id AA18548 (5.67b8/IDA-1.5 for ); Wed, 16 Oct 1996 05:06:36 +0100 Message-Id: <199610160406.AA18548@mail.math.TU-Berlin.DE> Received: from BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU by BROWNVM.brown.edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with BSMTP id 2299; Wed, 16 Oct 96 00:01:26 EDT Received: from BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU (NJE origin LISTSERV@BROWNVM) by BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 5757; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 00:01:24 -0400 Date: Wed, 16 Oct 1996 00:00:53 -0400 Reply-To: Historic Costume List Sender: Historic Costume List From: Automatic digest processor Subject: H-COSTUME Digest - 14 Oct 1996 to 15 Oct 1996 To: Recipients of H-COSTUME digests There are 33 messages totalling 880 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. Eleanora's Stockings 2. Raiments/AlterYears (2) 3. La Mode Illustree 4. warm feet? 5. Various (2) 6. 13th century cut/T-tunics 7. dress forms (8) 8. request for list manager 9. SCA Stuff (2) 10. Footwear In the Middle Ages (update) 11. 1630s suit - reply 12. Wedding rings 13. French Hoods (2) 14. 15. wedding dresses of the late 11c to early 13c (2) 16. Mourning Attire 17. New Subcriber 18. naalbinding (2) 19. Hairnets (deja vu) 20. Orvus - a saga (long) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 15 Oct 1996 00:14:52 -0400 From: Jafath@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Eleanora's Stockings Tell ya what -- Anyone who wants a copy of the "Eleanora's Stockings" knitting pattern can send me a SASE (number 10 size). Send it to: Jo Anne Fatherly 249R Powell Avenue Newburgh, NY 12550 I made a bunch of copies today, so I should be able to get it back to you fairly quickly. P.S. I tried to send this earlier, but it got returned. Delay unintentional. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 14 Oct 1996 22:11:15 -0700 From: don and carolyn richardson Subject: Re: Raiments/AlterYears Stacey Weinberger wrote: > > New Text Item: -No Subject- > Greetings All, > > I heard rumor that Raiments/AlterYears was going out of business! > Does anybody know about this? Is it true? > > Stacey Stacey, I believe this is strictly rumor. I'm sure if Janet were going out of business I'd have heard about it by now as she'd probably have the "going out of business" sale to end them all. Last I heard from her, business was booming and she was thinking of hiring some more people to handle all the mail order since she was getting backlogged. I think Alteryears will be around a *LOOONNNGG* time. Tetchubah ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 14 Oct 1996 22:14:33 -0700 From: don and carolyn richardson Subject: La Mode Illustree This bounced back to me once - let's try it again. Would anyone out there be interested in copies of "La Mode Illustree"? I ran across a treasure trove of them over the weekend, and since I aid a small fortune for them I thought maybe I could help pay for them by selling xerox copies of the complete magazines. I've got 23 of them from the early 1890's and 1900's, complete with pattern sheets, and I can get another 12 of them from the same period (I sold them to Mela Hoyt-Hayden for her use since she met me at the show I bought them at when I called her about them). I don't know how much I'd have to charge for them but it would probably be between $5 and $10 per copy. They're oversized and the pattern sheets are large so it'll probably cost me extra to have them copied. One warning - these are PERIOD patterns. If you haven't seen the pattern sheets from "La Mode Illustree" before, let me warn you that they are copied OVER each other so each side of the pattern sheet has about 5-6 patterns on it, all overlapping, with additional notes on the side. This means you would get about 12 patterns per copy (the sheets are double sided), and their contents is variable. It's definitely a daunting prospect for a beginner to interpret these things, articularly since they are in French. But they are an *excellent* resource. I'm just feeling the waters right now so if you're interested, please email me back with how many copies you think you might want - I'll try to put out a list in a couple of days but I have to go to the SCA Board meeting Thursday so please be patient - it may not be till I get back. Janet & Gary - I know you're out there on this list somewhere - would you be interested in copies for sale at Alteryears? Tetchubah ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Oct 1996 02:49:11 EDT From: Gary Anderson <72437.674@COMPUSERVE.COM> Subject: Raiments/AlterYears In reply to: >Stacey Weinberger >Subject: Raiments/AlterYears >Greetings All, >I heard rumor that Raiments/AlterYears was going out of business! >Does anybody know about this? Is it true? >Stacey Hi! This is Gary of Raiments/AlterYears, and this rumor is manifestly NOT true. We are doing very well, expanding greatly both mail order and the store, and adding additional patterns and books to our line. Next year's catalog will be our biggest ever, and we have more folks working for us. Call us at 818-585-2994, fax us at 818-432-4530, or send to our email address. It's true I haven't been as active on the nets as previous, but while Janet runs the store, I do engineering (besides moving heavy stuff and jockeying computers for Raiments/AlterYears) and those inconsiderate people actually wanted me to do work! But I will try to be a bit more active in the future. I don't know how silly rumors like this get started. Just contact us, and we will have a good laugh. Not to mention try to sell you all sorts of neat stuff. The girls are quite good at that. It is surprising the amount of business, especially overseas, that we do via email. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Oct 1996 10:19:00 CDT From: Van Opstal Walter Subject: warm feet? Dear all, A practical question that is puzzling us right now is how our medieval ancestors would have kept there feet warm? You can get away with an extra pair of socks inside a pair of hose with integral feet, but my own pair doens't have any feet attached to them and then their are the female camp followers as well. We'd say no to knitted socks, and are somehow wondering what would actually be an authentic way of taking care of this. I have read about the Vikings and their naalbinding (sp?) technique and I do know that knittingwas known in the Arab world in the late middle ages. We focus on early 14th century Flanders & the Low Countries and, frankly, I would have no idea. Thanks! Walter Van Opstal ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ "De Klauwaerts" 1270-1320 re-enactment group based in Belgium Home Page: http://www.novarltd.demon.co.uk/DeKlauwaerts/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Oct 1996 10:01:00 BST From: Mrs C S Yeldham Subject: Various T-tunics First a quick comment on T-tunics, tho' I won't go into detail until I've had a chance to look more closely at Julie's long list! I have got and seen some of those pictures, but will have to hunt for others. However, I think someone put her finger on the question when she mentioned definitions. I think I have quite a tight definition of T-Tunic, which I gave before - essentially I think of it as an *unfitted* garment with as few seams as possible. Julie has quite a broad definition, which includes fitting, and gores. My question on this is whether this is a useful way to discuss these garments, particularly with neophytes. I suspect it may mislead them, especially if they have the same definition as I do! My reading too would indicate that the normal width for weaving was 22" to 27", but I'm not sure the Museum of London Textiles book is specific except for luxury fabrics. Would any handweaver amongst us care to comment on the width that is convenient for throwing the shuttle? This is particularly important on the question of fitting. I know not everyone agrees with me, but I am always struck in the pictures by how *well* clothes fit everyone except the very poor. The problem arises with modern people, in that most of us think of *loose* as *comfortable*, and tight as uncomfortable (the only exceptions that spring to mind are lycra etc, which don't restrict movement, and tailored garments - which most people associate with formal, uncomfortable clothing). These are generalisations, but in my experience it is difficult to persuade the ordinary 20th century person that a fitted garment made of wool can be comfortable, and anything that hinders that understanding is to be avoided! Vote for wool! and linen! Drawstring Waists Thanks Julie, we obviously misunderstood each other! Yes, there is a tie at the centre front to hold the two sides together, and allow a certain amount of 'sizing' - tho' if the man gains too much weight then the codpiece area starts running into problems! I have recently seen men wearing split leg hose (no seam through the crotch) with long shirts and have been very impressed with the ease and decency achieved! My husband too usually has the back points unlaced, which is often seen, tho not universally. I wonder if men helped each other in lacing up? Jane Seymour gown I have made one of these, as well as earlier and later gowns. I think Maggie is right, the explanation lies in where these gowns came from, the evolution of the style. Going back to the turn of the century in England, (excluding working women) women wore two main items of clothing over the smock, the kirtle and the gown, which reached from neck to toes, cut through the waist, with sleeves. The fastening of these was either side front or centre front (Italian dresses show side back closures but these don't seem to have come into England) and women alternated these (ie if the kirtle was centre front then the gown was side front). This can be seen clearly in the More picture - you get both versions as well as the ease available for pregnancy. The kirtles can be seen around the edge of the necklines, the forearms (where the gown sleeves are turned back) and sometimes at the hems of the gowns. The variant where the centre closing gown is worn open with decorative laces shows the kirtle underneath at centre front. The kirtle and particularly gown around 1500 were not particularly tight, but by the 1520s waists have come in, the top half is getting tighter and the bottom half looser (and the gown lower sleeve bigger - a trumpet shape). Gradually the kirtle becomes the lower half of the outfit alone with matching false sleeves. The idea continues through the second half of the century where you get the forepart, stomacher and undersleeves matching with a contrasting gown worn over them (Gower, Hilliard etc). In the 1540's however the ideal of the top half seems to be this smooth, open square-necked look, with a flat front (lots of Holbein's women). This works if you have an underlayer, not seen, which is laced centre front - I found this needed to be quite heavily boned (but I am big busted, which most of the girls in the pictures aren't!). The side closing decorative top part (again boned to be smooth) is attached at a side seam and then pinned on the other side (I cheated and used hooks and eyes). Given the position of the pinned edge, which is practically under the armpit, you need help to do this! I have seen women do this as a separate stomacher pinned on both sides but to my mind it was not successful, it tended to 'float' as a separate item, not looking like an integral part of the garment. Prostitutes Someone mentioned that prostitutes didn't cover their hair, which I have always understood in the past. However, reading that it occurred to me that the only pictures I've seen of prostitutes show them wearing normal headgear. These are some woodcuts of taverns from about 1600, showing them with revealed breasts and pretty little coifs, and some French(?) and German(?) woodcuts from the 1500s or 1520s showing bathhouses which, as far as I remember, show them uncovered but the hair dressed normally (pinned up) or wearing turban things. Has anyone any evidence about this, or is it something that comes from what they wore when doing penance? There is a woodcut from about 1590s/1600s of a madam, who was associated with one of the playhouses and she is dressed as a normal wealthy middleclass woman. Back Princess seam What is this? Apart from overgowns, the Janet Arnold Patterns of Fashion shows gowns which are waisted and cartridge pleated at the waist. The seam lines might be the back of the bodice, where you get a straight centre seam and/or curved side seams. Puzzled! Hope this helps Caroline ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Oct 1996 07:43:24 -0400 From: Eric Praetzel Subject: Re: 13th century cut/T-tunics In terms of the archives. I'm still keeping everything in zip compressed files: available by ftp from ece.uwaterloo.ca in pub/jpeg/h-costume or http://ece.uwaterloo.ca/~praetzel/hobby.html about half of the way down the page. The files are: -rw-r--r-- 1 praetzel users 151810 Jun 25 08:02 hcos93.zip -rw-r--r-- 1 praetzel users 1446598 Jun 25 08:03 hcos94.zip -rw-r--r-- 1 praetzel users 2561831 Jun 25 08:03 hcos95.zip -rw-r--r-- 1 praetzel users 1264067 Jun 25 08:04 hcos96.zip Julie wrote: > The other thing to note is that many early period "T" cuts have the selvage > and a seam at the Center Front and Center back. This provides 4 seams to I have never run across any such details and I've been making mine with the selvage around the neck, arm cuffs and waist. You simply cut the fabric so that the only non-selvage seams are on your side seams. I thought that was a great discovery in terms of making a tunic that required no finishing on the edges :-) My last attempt had 6' of selvage gathered at the neck (2' wide pieces for front/back/arms) and that was not comfortable on the side. I gored it but the problem seems to be not enough width in the torso when the arms are raised. I'd also say that 2' of material is not enough for really puffy arms. I still have not managed to get the really puffy look since the fabric just falls. I'm starting to think that the sleves have to be lined with a stiff material of sorts. - Eric ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Oct 1996 10:15:13 -0400 From: Gaelscot@AOL.COM Subject: dress forms Advice wanted! I would like to purchase a dress form, as I'm much better at fitting garments on other people than on myself. My question is this: are any of the commercially available ones useful for both costuming and regular sewing? Can the foam ones be shaped with corsets, for instance, and if so will they go back to regular shape afterward? I don't want more than one dress form, and I don't want to make my own (I know how, I'd just prefer not to). Am I in or out of luck? Any advice would be very much appreciated! Gail Finke/gaelscot@aol.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Oct 1996 10:15:17 -0400 From: Gaelscot@AOL.COM Subject: request for list manager I have a question for the list manager and I accidentally deleted her address. Sorry to post this. Please reply privately. Gail Finke/gaelscot@aol.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 14 Oct 1996 20:25:48 +1100 From: "Cameron S. Boyd" Subject: Re: SCA Stuff Hi all, Kelly A Rinne wrote: > Then again, all sca commentary could stay on the sca.rec.newsgroup... I most certainly agree. Politics is not what this mailing list is about. Can we stop the SCA discussions and get back to costuming? Thanks, Cameron (Louis de Boyd - CKB) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Oct 1996 16:01:37 UT From: Rebecca Plummer Subject: Re: dress forms I got an old "My Double" form from the flea market for 50 cents and it is perfect!!! It is made with wires ( sort of like chicken wire but much easier to handle and manipulate - rubber coated). It is absolutely perfect!!! You can create the exact shape you need down to pokey shoulder bones and pot bellies. Don't know if you can find them or buy them anymore. Just thought I throw this out there. Becci ---------- From: Historic Costume List on behalf of Gaelscot@AOL.COM Sent: Tuesday, October 15, 1996 10:15 AM To: Multiple recipients of list H-COSTUME Subject: dress forms Advice wanted! I would like to purchase a dress form, as I'm much better at fitting garments on other people than on myself. My question is this: are any of the commercially available ones useful for both costuming and regular sewing? Can the foam ones be shaped with corsets, for instance, and if so will they go back to regular shape afterward? I don't want more than one dress form, and I don't want to make my own (I know how, I'd just prefer not to). Am I in or out of luck? Any advice would be very much appreciated! Gail Finke/gaelscot@aol.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Oct 1996 11:30:29 -0500 From: "Sara J. Davitt" Subject: Re: Various (She Wrote) woodcuts from the 1500s or 1520s showing bathhouses which, as far as I remember, show them uncovered but the hair dressed normally (pinned up) or wearing turban things. ( I write) July, Medivael Woman's Calendar... the Lady in her bath is completely nude, and is still wearing a Turban hood thing... When I saw this, I was confused... perhaps this was for alegorical/Symbolic Virtue purposes? (Because a Man was watching her? or??).. Or was it just a variation on the "shower Cap?" Just curious... I like all the customs talk.. it gives an interesting insight into what they wore and why... :) Take care, Sarahj ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Oct 1996 09:41:06 -0700 From: Margo Anderson Subject: Re: dress forms At 10:15 AM 10/15/96 -0400, you wrote: >Advice wanted! I would like to purchase a dress form, as I'm much better at >fitting garments on other people than on myself. My question is this: are any >of the commercially available ones useful for both costuming and regular >sewing? Can the foam ones be shaped with corsets, for instance, and if so >will they go back to regular shape afterward? > I have a foam dress form (a garage sale purchase) which I have been corseting for years. It springs back just fine. The expensive forms used in the professional costume shops I've worked in didn't compress at all. Unfortunately I never worked on a show involving strict corsetry, so I have no idea what the solution to such a problem would be. I'm intrigued with the idea of making a dress form by making a plaster cast of one's body, then filling it with expanding foam insulation. Has anyone tried this? Is this foam soft, or is it rigid? It seems to me that this technique would give a very accurate shape, and avoid the tedious fitting that a traditional form requires. Margo Anderson "One Tough Costumer" ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Oct 1996 12:12:41 -0500 From: "I. Marc Carlson" Subject: Footwear In the Middle Ages (update) There have been some minor updates added to the Footwear of the Middle Ages site ("http://www.pbm.com/~lindahl/carlson/SHOEHOME.HTM") including two new shoes, a *complete* revision of the first of the Footed Hose pages. There is more information on sole materials, as well as threading bristles for sewing. There is a receipe for Shoemaker's Wax (but don't tell anyone -- it's a Trade Secret...). The Bibliography has been restructured and updated, and the acknowledgements have been corrected and updated (and include a link to a rather nifty bootmaking site). I. Marc Carlson, Reference Librarian |LIB_IMC@CENTUM.UTULSA.EDU Tulsa Community College, West Campus LRC|Sometimes known as: Reference Tech. McFarlin Library | Diarmuit Ui Dhuinn University of Tulsa, 2933 E. 6th St. | Tulsa, OK 74104-3123 (918) 631-3794 | ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Oct 1996 18:32:45 +0000 From: K.M.Bunting@DERBY.AC.UK Subject: 1630s suit - reply Glad to know there's someone else on this list interested in the 17th century! The buttons often sewn down the outside leg seams of breeches were purely decorative. I don't know of any conventions about whether or not they matched the doublet buttons, but I should think that if the doublet and breeches are made of matching fabric it would be appropriate for the buttons to match too. Kate Bunting (Derby, UK - Sealed Knot member) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Oct 1996 13:41:50 -0400 From: Lethegirl@AOL.COM Subject: Re: dress forms The plaster cast idea is an interesting one, and I would assume that there is some material out there, like a foam rubber, that would be more suited to shaping. I do know that all of the expanding foam insulation I have seen used in my sculpture class is quite rigid when it dries. hope this helps at all... -T. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Oct 1996 12:52:00 -0500 From: "Davis, Charles E." Subject: Re: dress forms Be careful with that expanding foam. First it is a rigid form, and second it has some rather nasty chemicals in it. Use with caution. Charles Davis -------------------------------------------------- From: Margo Anderson To: Multiple recipients of list H-COSTUME Subject: Re: dress forms Date: Tuesday, 15 October 1996 11:41:00 AM At 10:15 AM 10/15/96 -0400, you wrote: >I'm intrigued with the idea of making a dress form by making a plaster cast of one's body, then filling it with expanding foam insulation. Has anyone tried this? Is this foam soft, or is it rigid? It seems to me that this technique would give a very accurate shape, and avoid the tedious fitting that a traditional form requires. Margo Anderson "One Tough Costumer" -------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Oct 1996 11:04:16 -0700 From: The Polsons Subject: Wedding rings Alexa said: >The question about which finger a wedding ring was worn, made me suddenly >realise that wedding rings were worn on different fingers. Can someone give >me a brief list of which finger and when up to 19th century? Send it >privately if you don't want to tie up the list Ah, I've actually idly wondered about this a few times since some friends of mine got married a few years back. In the Russian Orthodox church (not known for change) they wear their wedding rings on the RIGHT hand, which I though was odd until I asked my friend about it and he said, "Hmm... I didn't know there was any other way." ********************************************** Willow Polson....willow@recreating-history.com Recreating History magazine ..."Historic Crafts, Cooking, and Clothing"... ----> http://www.recreating-history.com <----- Call us toll free! 1-(888) REENACT (733-6228) ********************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Oct 1996 11:04:20 -0700 From: The Polsons Subject: French Hoods Tricia said: >Second question: French Hoods. The Clouet portraits of the 1540s Hoods all >show ties under the chin. I've used this in my French hood, which attaches >over a small cap, but it still drifts backward. That fall of >velvet/velveteen at the back is very heavy and the hood itself is not well >balanced. I have to keep settling it forward. Is velvet a common material for that veil at the back of a French hood? I had always seen/heard it as being more of a lightweight gauze, silk, or other sheer, light material. ********************************************** Willow Polson....willow@recreating-history.com Recreating History magazine ..."Historic Crafts, Cooking, and Clothing"... ----> http://www.recreating-history.com <----- Call us toll free! 1-(888) REENACT (733-6228) ********************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Oct 1996 14:17:01 -0400 From: "Elizabeth J. Poole" Subject: Re: dress forms If you want to do both regular dressmaking, AND have a form you can manipulate with corsetry, you need a Uniquely You. They run for about US$160 at the JoAnne's chain, and go on sale for US$99 or so three or four times a year. They take more time and trouble to fit up front than the hardbody dial-your-bustline forms do, but you can do corsetry on them. They're also the only solution if your measurements can't be accommodated by the hardbodies -- like my own incredibly short back-waist length. I'm not affiliated with them, but I *am* a passionate fan. :) cheers, ejp -------- Elizabeth Poole Yorktown Heights, NY ejp@watson.ibm.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Oct 1996 20:32:46 +0100 From: Jo Reynolds Subject: >The question about which finger a wedding ring was worn, made me suddenly >realise that wedding rings were worn on different fingers. Can someone give >me a brief list of which finger and when up to 19th century? Send it >privately if you don't want to tie up the list. Please don't - I would love to hear more on this subject! ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Oct 1996 13:38:40 -0700 From: Daniel Wright Subject: wedding dresses of the late 11c to early 13c Hello I'm new to this wonderful world of historicaly correct costumes. I'm making a wedding dress for my handfasting and would like to get help in designing it and what fabrics that would be correct in it's making. My house colors are emerld green and cream. It will be a early spring event. I would gladly except any help. Oh, this is to be a celtic handfasting. Danie'l Marie Wright dwright@clark.edu ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Oct 1996 16:46:54 -0700 From: Glenna Jo & Bill Christen Subject: Re: Mourning Attire Penny E. Ladnier wrote: > > I am looking for a good source for mourning attire for a gentleman around > 1895. Can anyone suggest a source? Men didn't appear to have any particular "mourning" attire as did women. Wearing a black arm band for a few days was concidered sufficient, even for the death of a man's wife. Glenna Jo Christen gjwchris@rust.net ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Oct 1996 16:32:03 -0500 From: Noelle Nicol Subject: Re: wedding dresses of the late 11c to early 13c As has been the case in the past, I'm sure you will receive a great deal of advice on your dress, but more information is needed first: What period of Irish history are you emulating? Please be specific as to century. As to fabrics, wool and linen were most common, usually embroidered in contrasting silk thread. For the wealthier of the nobles a silk smock or stockings may have been worn. The silk, again, depends on the time period you choose for your dress. YIS, Lady Lyssandre Mac Kenzie ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Oct 1996 17:23:26 -0400 From: Jasburn@AOL.COM Subject: New Subcriber Dear List, Please add us to your list. We are the owners of Burnley and Trowbridge, purveyors of 18th century fabrics and related goods. We are members of the BAR, British Brigade, Living History Association and Costume Society. We were told about your list by Ed and Jean Wilde and look forward to participating. Thank You, Angela and Jim Burnley jasburn@aol.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Oct 1996 17:55:45 -0400 From: Tess Parrish Subject: naalbinding Can anyone direct me to information, and especially directions for making, on naalbinding (there are various spellings).. Thanks, Tess ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Oct 1996 20:46:57 -0400 From: aleed Subject: Hairnets (deja vu) After purchasing the Museum of London Textiles and Clothing book and looking at the section on hairnets, I've found myself wanting to make one for myself. The book showed the net being made with an extremely odd looking instrument, rather like a cross between a needle-threader and a crochet hook. I tried making a net by hand and failed rather miserably, and so am now searching for one of these obscure items. Does anyone know the name of the implement used to make hairnets in the middle ages, and more to the point, where I might find such a thing? Thanks, Drea ------------------------------- We've secretly replaced their dilithium crystals with new folgers crystals. Now let's watch them go to warp. ------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Oct 1996 22:07:12 -0300 From: Margaret Rae Carignan Subject: Re: SCA Stuff On Mon, 14 Oct 1996, Cameron S. Boyd wrote: > Hi all, > > Kelly A Rinne wrote: > > Then again, all sca commentary could stay on the sca.rec.newsgroup... > > I most certainly agree. Politics is not what this mailing list is > about. Can we stop the SCA discussions and get back to costuming? > > Thanks, > Cameron (Louis de Boyd - CKB) > I agree that pure political discussions, and certain philisophical ones, might be better suited to other discussion groups. However, costume has it's own problems and dillemas, some of which seem political in nature to the less than interested, whether the period is SCA or RevWars. Unless you are suggesting separate newsgroups for each period and organization, I suspect we will be stuck with (and perhaps enriched by) some slightly off-topic discussions. I will endevour to reply to "political" or philosophical questions directly, without posting to the whole group - how does that sound? Meg/Francesca ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Oct 1996 22:12:45 -0300 From: Margaret Rae Carignan Subject: Re: dress forms Margo said: > > I'm intrigued with the idea of making a dress form by making a plaster cast > of one's body, then filling it with expanding foam insulation. Has anyone > tried this? Is this foam soft, or is it rigid? It seems to me that this > technique would give a very accurate shape, and avoid the tedious fitting > that a traditional form requires. > A friend of mine and I tried making headforms using the technique you describe. It was a dismal failure. The foam insulation, which dries rigid, did not expand evenly, leaving big, unfillable holes in the mold. We were sad. We havn't tried anything else since. If anyone out there has had better luck, I would love to know. I have heard of people buying foam sheets (upholstery-type ones), cutting them in cross-sectional shapes, gluing them together, and then laboriously smoothing them. Yikes! There must be a way! Meg/Francesca ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Oct 1996 22:18:08 -0300 From: Margaret Rae Carignan Subject: Re: French Hoods On Tue, 15 Oct 1996, The Polsons wrote: > Is velvet a common material for that veil at the back of a French hood? I > had always seen/heard it as being more of a lightweight gauze, silk, or > other sheer, light material. > Good Evening! All the paintings I have been seeing over the years show opaque (usually black, one dark blue, usually velvet or other similar stuff) drapes on the back. I have read that sheer fabrics were common, but have never yet seen one in a painting. My theory is that sheer veils were more "casual" (if any Tudor costume can be called casual!) and the opaque ones more formal, but that is pure conjecture. I would like to see some paintings of sheer veils - they would probably make the hoods easier to wear. Meg/Francesca ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Oct 1996 10:42:35 EDT From: "Wilson, Annette" Subject: Orvus - a saga (long) A few months ago, there was a thread about the wonderous substance 'Orvus'. In typical fashion, I deleted all the messages and then tried to buy the stuff in Australia, with no success. I tried all sorts of shops, and, based on the info that it was used in the stock trade for washing show animals and washing down cows' udders, I asked a friend who shows horses for help. Eventually, after asking every stock agent in the area, she went to an interstate show (Royal Melbourne Show) and asked a small stock agent "Have you heard of Orvus?" The answer was surprisingly agressive "where did you hear about it?" and the woman refused to say how much she would charge for it, said she wasn't ordering it again until January, and declined to supply any to my friend on the grounds that she only had enough for the show cattle people. Subsequent enquiries reveal that the cattle people won't tell other people how much they pay the supplier for it, and that she also supplies one of the Spinners and Weavers Guilds with it and _they_ won't say how much it costs either. The whole story is extraordinary. If I hadn't heard the saga direct from my friend I wouldn't believe it. The only construction I can put on it is that the supplier is probably charging an outrageous markup, and is trying to make it look as if she is the _only_ source of supply. Since then, I have found a chemical company who can probably supply sodium laurel sulphate, for which Orvus WA and Orvus WA Paste are listed as synonyms. So, finally :-) my questions are: Is Orvus pure sodium laurel sulphate? (should tell you on the label) Is it a dry chemical or a paste as one of the names suggests? How much do you dilute it for washing things like silk, raw wool both in the fleece and spun, and horses before shows :-)? How much does it cost in the USA for what quantities? My friend and I have gone to such lengths to get this far that we can't stop now! Thank you all in advance Annette Wilson (Leonie de Grey in the SCA for those that care) Email: awilson@anca.gov.au ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Oct 1996 19:30:09 -0700 From: Heather Rose Jones Subject: Re: naalbinding On Tue, 15 Oct 1996, Tess Parrish wrote: > Can anyone direct me to information, and especially directions for making, on > naalbinding (there are various spellings).. Thanks, Tess There's a wonderfully detailed description of the basic technique in Margrethe Hald's "Ancient Danish Textiles from Bogs and Burials" although I don't believe she gives instructions for any particular garment. Heather Rose Jones ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Oct 1996 23:48:28 -0400 From: Kitty Randall Subject: Re: dress forms >I have a foam dress form (a garage sale purchase) which I have been >corseting for years. It springs back just fine. The expensive forms used in >the professional costume shops I've worked in didn't compress at all. >Unfortunately I never worked on a show involving strict corsetry, so I have >no idea what the solution to such a problem would be. >Margo Anderson >"One Tough Costumer" I've worked on a number of shows requiring strict corsetry with the Wolf dress forms. The way we've gotten around the non-compression issue is by using a smaller form and padding it out with batting to the correct size. Hope this helps. -Kitty Randall kittyr@pinn.net ------------------------------ End of H-COSTUME Digest - 14 Oct 1996 to 15 Oct 1996 **************************************************** From ???@??? Thu Oct 17 11:49:24 1996 Received: from brownvm.brown.edu by mail.math.TU-Berlin.DE with SMTP id AA25908 (5.67b8/IDA-1.5 for ); Thu, 17 Oct 1996 05:06:56 +0100 Message-Id: <199610170406.AA25908@mail.math.TU-Berlin.DE> Received: from BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU by BROWNVM.brown.edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with BSMTP id 4788; Thu, 17 Oct 96 00:01:40 EDT Received: from BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU (NJE origin LISTSERV@BROWNVM) by BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 3838; Thu, 17 Oct 1996 00:01:36 -0400 Date: Thu, 17 Oct 1996 00:01:05 -0400 Reply-To: Historic Costume List Sender: Historic Costume List From: Automatic digest processor Subject: H-COSTUME Digest - 15 Oct 1996 to 16 Oct 1996 To: Recipients of H-COSTUME digests There are 28 messages totalling 948 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. Tudor Undersleeves 2. French Hoods 3. Orvus - a saga (long) 4. Raiments/alteryears (2) 5. Eleanora of Toledo stockings 6. Holbein & Blackwork 7. Tudor undersleeves 8. 16th C. costumes 9. Tudor 10. SCA Stuff 11. warm feet? (2) 12. Warm Feet (2) 13. Orvus 14. Hairnets & dressforms 15. Paper dresses 16. Tricia--Hennin questions (2) 17. naalbinding (2) 18. Folkwear Patterns 19. Orvus Soap & French Hood Material 20. Hennin questions 21. Hairnets (deja vu) 22. Eleanora's Stockings 23. Submissions to the list ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 16 Oct 1996 00:09:45 -0400 From: RoseDAnjou@AOL.COM Subject: Tudor Undersleeves My name is Rose and I am looking for some information or direction to research sources. I am working on making a Tudor period gown and I can't quite figure out how to do the puffy undersleeve thing. In one portrait of Jane Seymour, by Holbein, it appears as if the undersleeve is a trapezoidal piece of material that is draped over the arm, and is somehow attached to the dress or undershirt. I was under the impression that the undersleeves were made kind of like a fur muff where both ends were fitted and the inbetween area was stuffed. Then you just slip it over the undershirt. Maybe some of them were done this way but not others? If you know any good primary or secondary sources, please e-mail me back and let me know. If you know of a specific portrait that might shed some light, please give me the name and I will try to look it up. Any help or suggestions would be greatly appreciated!! ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Oct 1996 21:31:45 -0700 From: don and carolyn richardson Subject: Re: French Hoods Margaret Rae Carignan wrote: > > > Is velvet a common material for that veil at the back of a French hood? I > > had always seen/heard it as being more of a lightweight gauze, silk, or > > other sheer, light material. > All the paintings I have been seeing over the years show opaque (usually > black, one dark blue, usually velvet or other similar stuff) drapes on the > back. I have read that sheer fabrics were common, but have never yet seen > one in a painting. My theory is that sheer veils were more "casual" (if > any Tudor costume can be called casual!) and the opaque ones more formal, > but that is pure conjecture. I would like to see some paintings of sheer > veils - they would probably make the hoods easier to wear. > > Meg/Francesca Hey Giles - get Louise into this conversation would you? She's the resident expert on Tudor caps of all shapes and sizes. Tetchubah ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Oct 1996 21:41:46 -0700 From: don and carolyn richardson Subject: Re: Orvus - a saga (long) Wilson, Annette wrote: > So, finally :-) my questions are: > > Is Orvus pure sodium laurel sulphate? (should tell you on the > label) The label doesn't mention anything other than sodium laurel sulphate, so I'd assume it's pure since under US labeling laws they'd have to list anything else (I suspect water is in there too). > Is it a dry chemical or a paste as one of the names suggests? The stuff I have is sort of like a liquidy gel (think thick Ivory dishwashing soap). > How much do you dilute it for washing things like silk, raw wool > both in the fleece and spun, and horses before shows :-)? The instructions on my bottle (for antique quilts) say to mix one tablespoon with a washer full of water (figure about 10 gallons). It's very concentrated. No further instructions are included on my bottle. > How much does it cost in the USA for what quantities? I bought this bottle (8 oz) from Alteryears for (I think) $5.00. I hear you can get it at most feed stores around here in bigger quantities at cheaper prices (and since Janet at Alteryears told me this, I'd believe her). > > My friend and I have gone to such lengths to get this far > that we can't stop now! > > Thank you all in advance That story was really bizarre! Good luck - I'm sure you can order this thru Alteryears if all else fails. Tetchubah ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Oct 1996 21:45:29 PDT From: Venus Envy Subject: Raiments/alteryears I confess I started the rumor that Raiments was going out of business... I meant to ask Gary on this list but hadn't gotten to my email this week at all... but the reason I heard it is my housemate called Raiments to order a pattern, and the woman she spoke to said they were going out of business, her pattern wasn't there and there wouldn't be any more shipments, but that there would be a store sale in December... I overheard the whole thing! I thought it was ridiculous as I know we *all* use Raiments ... and I love it! I'm jsut wondering who was on the other end of the phone and why they said that... -heather meadows ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Oct 1996 22:51:34 -0700 From: Erin Harvey Moody Subject: Re: Eleanora of Toledo stockings If you are using Janet Arnold's article (on stockings) in 'Patterns of Fashion' on Eleanor of Toledo's tomb, you should know that she has since published an article with further evidence based on the extensive and continuing research that has been done for the last ten years since the PoF article was originally written. In the new article, she contradicts her earlier findings. For instance, the ribbons found in the tomb were originally thought to have been garters. Arnold now writes that they were wrist and ankle bindings used to keep the limbs in place after being placed in the tomb. The xray photo evidence clearly shows where the ribbons were tied against the stockings at the ankles. It is a very interesting article. I don't have the name of the book on hand, it has only been published in the last year. I am ordering a few copies, it is exclusively evidence found on the tomb clothing, and it is only published in Italian. Erin > >At 11:07 PM 10/8/96 -0700, you wrote: >>I'm about to embark on as close a reproduction as I can make (with a few >>cautious, carefully thought out adaptations) of the knitted silk stockings >>from Eleanora of Toledo's tomb (1562). And I'm wondering if anyone has more >>information or references that I haven't found. >> > ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Oct 1996 22:49:56 -0700 From: Erin Harvey Moody Subject: Holbein & Blackwork Perhaps I missed the beginning of this thread. Was the question about sources for patterns or is it if Holbein's paintings depicting blackwork from the actual garments or made up himself? To answer some of the other questions, embroidery patterns were created in one of three ways during the 16th century: 1. Patterns were commissioned from a draughtsman who transferred the pattern onto the fabric and was later stitched in part or whole by the individual. 2. Commercial pattern books were commonly available and used during this period. The same patterns can be seen in existing spot and band samplers over and over again, because they were using the same pattern books. The same patterns can also be seen in paintings of the period, from different painters (i.e. not the same painter using the same embroidery motif on all his sitters). 3. Patterns were passed from needle teacher to student, or patterns were the invention of the needleworkers' own design. Commissions for draughtsmen and professional needlework are easily found in household inventories, receipts and records of the period. Commercial pattern books from the 16th Century do exist, and in greater number than you would think. I personally own several reproductions of originals, and I have seen many more originals during the course of my research. The assumption of needleworkers' personal design is almost impossible to document, but is deduced by many who have spent time researching this subject, without actual proof available. Further, blackwork was stitched both as reversible and not, in 16thC England. Both styles are depicted in Holbein's paintings. The modern term for the double running stitch used to create reversible blackwork is called the "Holbein stitch" for that very reason. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Oct 1996 21:24:44 -1000 From: Lisa Leong Subject: Re: Tudor undersleeves Sorry, not an answer, but more questions to add about Tudor gowns. While keeping in mind the cautions about using paintings as documentation, I've been poring over some pictures trying to figure this out--hopefully someone can share their insights. The pictures are Holbein's Jane Seymour (1536-7), Mary I at age 28 (1544)-golden/orangey gown with red sleeve lining and pale green undersleeves, Princess Elizabeth (~1545)-wearing deep coral gown, holding book, and a couple of Lady Jane Grey, among others. In all the paintings, the costume has the same (for lack of a better term) pattern of jewels on the headdresses, in the necklaces, and around the necklines, plus in the girdles for both Janes and Elizabeth). Since all the jewels match I would think that they would be removable so they could be worn with other gowns. Yes? If so, around the necklines and on the headdresses, what were they attached to? Were they strung as they must have been for the necklaces and girdles and then pinned or stitched to the garments? Sewn directly onto a strip of fabric and pinned/sewn to the dress? To the chemise (which does show around the neckline too)? In Jane S.'s portrait, there is a strip of white under the jewels across the top of her bodice but what was that strip a part of? Also in the Jane S. portrait, on her left shoulder there is a narrow space between the jewels and sleeve with skin showing through which makes me think that they weren't attached to the gown itself. Also, at the point where her right armhole and bodice front meet there is a gap where there are no jewels even though you can can see the gold cording/embroidery almost down to her armpit. The Mary and Elizabeth portraits have the jewels completely edging the neckline. Next question is about sleeves. Looking at the portraits, it appears that the only thing going over the shoulder is the sleeve head, which falls at or very close to the shoulder end of the clavicle. Is the sleeve "set into" anything or is the sleeve head just suspended between the bodice front and back? If they weren't attached to anything, how did they keep them from slipping off their shoulders? The pattern in Jean Hunnisett's book has a narrow strap going over the shoulder from the back, but as was pointed out to me, that is theater rather than history. Or do those jewels cover the shoulder piece? There isn't any gown fabric under Jane Seymour's and Mary's jewels, although Elizabeth's could be hiding something. Mary's sleeve heads are edged with a strip of what looks like ribbon--doesn't seem to be attached to anything else. There are some lines under Jane Seymour's arm but I think those are folds rather than seams. If Holbein included all those tiny gold pins and edge on the stomacher, wouldn't he have included a sleeve seam if there was one too? The only back view I've been able to find of this style of gown is the 1540 sketch by Holbein and the lappet of the headdress covers the sleeve-shoulder area :\ The part of the sketch that I can see indicates that something does go up the back, but where does it go _to_? Would it taper off to a point and end somewhere at the back of the shoulder? Almost looks like the bodice back and sleeve are one piece although I'm sure it can't be. Like Rose, I'm looking for some primary sources too and I also appreciate the information that you all share. --lisa ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Oct 1996 21:54:42 -1000 From: Lisa Leong Subject: Re: 16th C. costumes On Sun, 13 Oct 1996, P. M. Ostwald wrote: > My question is, has anyone else tried the Jane Seymour costume, and how was > it fastened. Was the side fastening successful (mine bunches). Do pins > actually stay in , or was this an example of a costume for people who > didn't intend to move around much. I'd really like to get this look right. Tricia, I haven't tried this yet--in fact, I'm working on it now--but I read somewhere (the Rialto archives?) that that method works very nicely if you bone the stomacher well and place the pins perpendicular rather than parallel to the stomacher edge. I think it was also mentioned that it stayed on securely even with lots of movement. Tried to track the file down but their server seems to be down. I think it was under clothing-->fastenings. HTH, lisa * <| .^. * * .=.=.=. * Lisa Leong * <| ^V V V^ <| lisaleon@hawaii.edu \^ ^ ^/ | | \^ ^ ^/ SCA: Annora verch Llwyd Bryneirian | |^^^^| |^^^^| | Western Seas, Caid | [] [] [] | | ":":":":...:":":":" | ~~~|________[oIo]________|~~~ ~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~ ~~~~~ ~~~~~ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Oct 1996 11:06:00 BST From: Mrs C S Yeldham Subject: Tudor Lisa wrote about Tudor Gowns: On some points I shall have to go home and check my books, but I can react immediately to some questions. > In all the paintings, the costume has the same (for lack of a >better term) pattern of jewels on the headdresses, in the necklaces, and >around the necklines, plus in the girdles for both Janes and Elizabeth). >Since all the jewels match I would think that they would be removable so >they could be worn with other gowns. Yes? If so, around the necklines >and on the headdresses, what were they attached to? It is always said that jewels were reused, which is why so few of these gowns survive. I'm not 100% certain about these, they could have been sewn to strips of cloth and then to the gown, but certainly some were sewn directly onto the cloth, some of the late Elizabeth I gowns where the jewels are in a pattern across the whole of the gown, it would be the only way to do it. I think Janet Arnold also mentions ecclesiastical outfits where jewels were sewn directly to the outfit. The Francis Lady Chandos gown from the 1590s has motifs in seed pearls all over the sleeves, stomacher and forepart of her gown, which were almost certainly sewn directly onto it. >To the chemise (which does show around the >neckline too)? In Jane S.'s portrait, there is a strip of white under the >jewels across the top of her bodice but what was that strip a part of? The period term in England is smock or shift, not chemise (pet hate of mine). I would have to check the picture but it is normal for the low square-necked style of gown to show a little of the smock at the edge, which is often decorated (blackwork). It is unlikely that the jewels would be attached to the smock since that is a separate garment, which would be changed much more frequently than the gown. >Also in the Jane S. portrait, on her left shoulder there is a narrow >space between the jewels and sleeve with skin showing through which makes >me think that they weren't attached to the gown itself. I'll have a look! > Also, at the point where her right armhole and bodice front meet there is >a gap where there are no jewels even though you can can see the gold >cording/embroidery almost down to her armpit. The Mary and Elizabeth >portraits have the jewels completely edging the neckline. This could be the junction of the main part of the garment and the front layer which gives the smooth look to the front. > Next question is about sleeves. Looking at the portraits, >it appears that the only thing going over the shoulder is the sleeve head, >which falls at or very close to the shoulder end of the clavicle. Is the >sleeve "set into" anything or is the sleeve head just suspended between >the bodice front and back? If they weren't attached to anything, how did >they keep them from slipping off their shoulders? The pattern in Jean >Hunnisett's book has a narrow strap going over the shoulder from the back, >but as was pointed out to me, that is theater rather than history. We've had this discussion before on the list, and I think we agreed to differ. Some people think the shoulder strap was omitted and you do just see the sleeve head at this point. Personally I think this would make construction, and keeping the sleeve head in position very difficult (and its almost impossible anyway). I think there is a very narrow shoulder strap covered by the decorative strip. The gowns before and after this style (the evolutionary origins and development of this gown) both show clear shoulder straps, sometimes appearing to run from the back down to armpit level at the front, which helps keep the shoulders up. Hunnisett is pretty good. > Or do those jewels cover the shoulder piece? There isn't any gown >fabric under Jane Seymour's and Mary's jewels, although Elizabeth's could >be hiding something. Mary's sleeve heads are edged with a strip of what >looks like ribbon--doesn't seem to be attached to anything else. There >are some lines under Jane Seymour's arm but I think those are folds rather >than seams. If Holbein included all those tiny gold pins and edge on the >stomacher, wouldn't he have included a sleeve seam if there was one too? I'll have a look at my copies, but I'm not sure they are good enough to show this kind of detail! Holbein may just not have bothered to show the fabric, since the jewels would take the viewer's eye. > The only back view I've been able to find of this style of gown is >the 1540 sketch by Holbein and the lappet of the headdress covers the >sleeve-shoulder area :\ The part of the sketch that I can see indicates >that something does go up the back, but where does it go _to_? Would it >taper off to a point and end somewhere at the back of the shoulder? >Almost looks like the bodice back and sleeve are one piece although I'm >sure it can't be. I think that sketch has tormented all of us working in this period! And I'm not 100% sure its English (that headdress looks more like continental contemporaries than English ones). If so it is possible that the front is not as low as the English went as some of the continental pictures have a higher front neckline. It's the only back view I know of and the plain fact is that that deep V doesn't work with the very wide square front. The shoulders fall off. I've seen at least a dozen variants, women working independently on the same sources you are quoting, and I've only known two that worked (ie the shoulders stayed on without the woman ending up with chronic neck and shoulder pain after about 2 days). In the first case the woman used the kirtle/gown principle I mentioned in my last mailing. She made the kirtle very high, round-necked but extending out to the shoulders and then down into the square front-neck. The gown had a very deep V, practically down to the waist. She then pinned or sewed the shoulders of the gown to the kirtle, so the back-neck of the kirtle kept the gown and shoulders in place. The second variant (I must confess) was my own. Firstly I worked with an interlining with *no* stretch in it, and fully interlined the bodice. I didn't take the V as deep as shown, about down to armpit level at the back. I used an integral shoulder strap which ran from the back down to the armpit in one piece and was very tight (I could not lift my arms above my head when dressed). The top half of the sleeves was also very tight, so the weight of the lower sleeves was on my upper arms and did not run to the shoulder. It worked for a couple of weeks, but was beginning to stretch by the end. All the other gentry women had falling sleeves after a day or two, shoulder cramp from trying to keep them up and found the weight of the lower trumpet sleeves quite painful. As for the false undersleeves, I haven't made the really big ones, like the picture of Elizabeth your refer to, but I have made ones like the Jane Seymour. They don't need padding, but stiffening, or use a stiff fabric. I used a cotton brocade, interlined it at least partially to hold the puffs of false smock sleeve showing through slashes in place, and lined it. The shape is not difficult, you can use the shape of a forearm part of a sleeve as a pattern, move the seam to under the arm and then extend to the shape wanted. The fun bit was putting in the 'sunray' lines running up from the wrist - raised tucks made with saddle stitch. I experimented in calico first to get the shape (and allowance for the tucks) right. Janet Arnold seems to start about 1550 and apart from Jean Hunnisett I don't know anyone else writing on this period in the kind of detail needed. Pictures are all we have for this kind of detail at the moment. I am told the Museum of London has a lot of 16th century textiles in store but currently have not plans to publish (I am going to try and pressurise on this!) Good luck Caroline ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Oct 1996 08:12:52 -0400 From: Kelly A Rinne Subject: Re: SCA Stuff I actually wasn't trying to polarize anyone. I happen to find extremely offensive messages from rec/sca folks who address everyone as milord or milady, and then we have to tolerate a message full of faux-olde-English patois be fore we get to their costume-oriented question. Just trying to establish professionalism....:) Kel ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Oct 1996 08:45:49 -0500 From: "I. Marc Carlson" Subject: Re: warm feet? > >A practical question that is puzzling us right now is how our medieval >ancestors would have kept there feet warm? You can get away with an extra >pair of socks inside a pair of hose with integral feet, but my own pair >doens't have any feet attached to them and then their are the female camp >followers as well. We'd say no to knitted socks, and are somehow wondering >what would actually be an authentic way of taking care of this. 14th century Flanders? It's a good question, what to wear. Have you considered simply *sewing* stockings from, say, wool fabric, and using them. If nothing else, it would give the ladies something to hold up with their garters (which according to the foundation of the Garter Knights myth, we are told at least SOME people wore). Does anyone know of any extant examples? To return to a source, I've mentioned already, the Bocksten "bog man" was wearing footed hose, what appear to be underhose AND had his feet wrapped in remnants of old garments, all of which were worn inside the shoes. I. Marc Carlson, Reference Librarian |LIB_IMC@CENTUM.UTULSA.EDU Tulsa Community College, West Campus LRC| Reference Tech. McFarlin Library | University of Tulsa, 2933 E. 6th St. | Tulsa, OK 74104-3123 (918) 631-3794 | ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Oct 1996 11:45:02 -0400 From: EGerds@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Raiments/alteryears In a message dated 96-10-16 00:48:16 EDT, goddess@WONDERLAND.COM (Venus Envy) writes: << confess I started the rumor that Raiments was going out of business.. but the reason I heard it is my housemate called Raiments to order a pattern, and the woman she spoke to said they were going out of business, her pattern wasn't there and there wouldn't be any more shipments, I overheard the whole thing! I thought it was ridiculous as I know we *all* use Raiments ... and I love it! I'm jsut wondering who was on the other end of the phone and why they said that... >> AH HA! I bet your housemate was ordering a Folkwear Pattern. Folkwear is going out of business, not AlterYears. The person at the other end of the phone was likely Teresa our newest helper who is still learning her way around, and I'll bet my petticoat that she said that "they" were going out of business, meaning Folkwear, but that you thought "they" meant AlterYears. Liz Gerds AlterYears Employee ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Oct 1996 09:52:15 -0800 From: Carole Newson-Smith Subject: Warm Feet Walter, Knitted wool socks would be appropriate for your group if we are to believe Richard Rutt. According to his book on the history of knitting, knitting was known in Italy in the 1340's and Germany later in the same century. Apparently the earliest knitted pieces were socks, caps and mittens. Another thought would be to research something that I recall reading on the net a couple of years ago. An lady who was a member of the Vanaheim Vikings re-enactment group in England mentioned that vikings' shoes were sometimes stuffed with hay, and that when the hay is damp it produces a bit of heat. I'm sorry that my recollection is so vague. Carole Newson-Smith ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Oct 1996 10:12:06 -0800 From: Carole Newson-Smith Subject: Orvus I am fascinated with Annette's saga. Orvus is Proctor and Gamble's brand name for the product. I do not know if it is available outside the U.S. Unfortunately my email access is at work and the Orvus is at home. But I can tell you that there are four ingredients, the first of which is water, and the second is sodium lauryl sulfate. The stuff is a milky paste of a thick syrupy consistence, at least at room temperature. The container is a squarish plastic jar and probably holds about a gallon. But the contents are marked with its weight. I paid $20 US for it, which a co-worker said is a bit expensive for California. I think you would have to experiment with it, but be conservative with the amount you use, as it is very sudsy. I washed 6 yards of silk broadcloth in my bathtub with it, and probably used about 1/4 cup Orvus to more than 5 gallons of cold water. Good luck. Carole Newson-Smith ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Oct 1996 14:11:02 EST From: Carol Kocian Subject: Hairnets & dressforms Margo Anderson wrote, > I'm intrigued with the idea of making a dress form by making a > plaster cast of one's body, then filling it with expanding foam > insulation. ... > It seems to me that this technique would give a very accurate > shape, and avoid the tedious fitting that a traditional form > requires. Plaster can compress the figure the same as a corset. The resulting cast will not necessarily give an accurate shape. It would take a lot of practice with plaster casting to be able to do this well. I have a dress form with the panels that move. It can be adjusted for different back waist lengths, raising or lowering the bustline, etc. I've also padded it a bit because it was made in the style of the girdle era & has no derierre to speak of. It may be best to get a friend to learn to fit you. Dress forms don't have arms that move, and they don't breathe, so it's better to fit on a live body. Drea wrote about hairnets, > The book showed the net being made with an extremely odd looking > instrument, rather like a cross between a needle-threader and a > crochet hook. I tried making a net by hand and failed rather > miserably, and so am now searching for one of these obscure items. I've made hairnets with a netting shuttle. It may not be the same device you're describing. The shuttle is longer & thinner than a weaving shuttle, and sometimes made of metal. There is also another type of shuttle that has a point on one end. The technique is the same as for making fishnets. Lacis, in Berkeley, CA, carries both types of shuttles along with instructions on how to use them. -Carol Kocian ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Oct 1996 11:55:06 -0800 From: Carole Newson-Smith Subject: Warm Feet Ok, I just got a message from Eric Praetzel (I am on the digest version of the list and do not know if the list also got the note) regarding heat-generating properties of wet hay. He questioned that such a thing was possible with such a small amount of hay as would fit into a shoe along with somebody's foot. I really don't know, myself, but it seems a reasonable thing to stuff extra wool or moss or hay inside the shoe on colder days. (And yes, I realize that "reasonable" to the 20th century mind may have absolutely no bearing on what was actually done.) So I just sneaked a look at the Viking Home Page via Netscape, which has an interesting writeup by Jeff Clark/Hafgrim Gunnarson about actual viking shoes dug up at various archeological finds. The article includes line drawings of shoes and their patterns. Late in the article he states "It is a well known fact that straw generates heat when wet and as no authentic shoe is waterproof, when you try this out [stuffing hay in your shoes] you will find the bottom of your shoe wet, but your foot on the straw will be dry." You may find this worth looking up. Carole Newson-Smith (Cordelia Toser in the SCA) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Oct 1996 11:51:18 -0700 From: The Polsons Subject: Paper dresses I just ran across an article on paper dresses that I forgot I had - Victorian Decorating & Lifestyle magazine, June/July 1996, article begins on page 56. Their address is GCR Publishing Group, Inc., 1700 Broadway, New York, NY 10019. ********************************************** Willow Polson....willow@recreating-history.com Recreating History magazine ..."Historic Crafts, Cooking, and Clothing"... ----> http://www.recreating-history.com <----- Call us toll free! 1-(888) REENACT (733-6228) ********************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Oct 1996 12:37:23 -0700 From: Diana Dills Subject: Tricia--Hennin questions I am not an expert in the period you are costuming for, but I have done a little research in headwear and shoes from the 10-15th centuries... The black velvet loop at the front of hennins is thought by some to hide a stiff wire, which is worn pressed flat against the forehead and helps anchor the hennin so it ddoes not slip backwards off the head. There are extant examples of this, and also it is seen in some later folk costumes in certain areas of Europe--I seem to recall Belgian and Flemish costumes, but can't give you any specifics. Sorry to be vague; like I said, most of my research is bronze age-13th c. Also, at the time hennins were being worn, it was the height of fashion for women to pluck or shave the hairline at the forehead and the nape of the neck so these headdresses could be worn without hair showing. Brows also seem non-existent during this period, so plucking and shaving must have been quite extensive. I think if I were wearing a hennin, I'd have to draw the line at shaving my forehead! (Not-Quite-an-Authentinazi!) DIANA DILLS *UWPD* ddills@u.washington.edu ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Oct 1996 16:06:32 -0400 From: Tess Parrish Subject: naalbinding I have just received a thirty-page, very complete and interesting folder of instructions on naalbinding. If someone is interested, please Email me. Tess ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Oct 1996 13:16:42 -0700 From: janet henry Subject: Folkwear Patterns Before we get another rumor going - Folkwear is not going out of business, but being sold. Taunton Press has decided not to support this product any more and is preparing to sell that division. Janet ******************************************************* Janet Henry jhenry@astron.berkeley.edu "The real threats to our creative process are in thinking we don't know, when we do; that we can't, when we can; that we're nothing, when we're all." - Karin Carrington ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Oct 1996 13:51:48 -0700 From: The Polsons Subject: Orvus Soap & French Hood Material Meg/Francesca said about French hoods: >All the paintings I have been seeing over the years show opaque (usually >black, one dark blue, usually velvet or other similar stuff) drapes on the >back. I have read that sheer fabrics were common, but have never yet seen >one in a painting. Hmm.... I was just curious, not having researched this much at all. Please post what you find out or know, as I plan to make a few next spring! 8-) Then Anette says: >Is Orvus pure sodium laurel sulphate? (should tell you on the >label) Apparently, according to the bottle I'm looking at (purchased at a quilt shop, 8oz. for $5.75 retail). It just says "Contents: Sodium Lauryl Sulfate." >Is it a dry chemical or a paste as one of the names suggests? It's a very thick liquid, something like thick shampoo. >How much do you dilute it for washing things like silk, raw wool >both in the fleece and spun, and horses before shows :-)? The bottle says to use 1 tablespoon per full washer or bathtub for quilts. I even have a source address on the label - Quilter's Rule, Inc. 2322 N.E. 29th Ave. Ocala, FL 34470 Good luck, and I hope this helps! 8-) ********************************************** Willow Polson....willow@recreating-history.com Recreating History magazine ..."Historic Crafts, Cooking, and Clothing"... ----> http://www.recreating-history.com <----- Call us toll free! 1-(888) REENACT (733-6228) ********************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Oct 1996 17:33:37 -0500 From: Hollie Hoffman Subject: Re: warm feet? >I have read about the Vikings and their naalbinding (sp?) technique and I do >know that knitting was known in the Arab world in the late middle ages. Well, one of the classes at Pennsic XXV that I observed was on making Scandinavian felted boots. I'd hoped to participate but I was only first on the waiting list and everyone showed up so I didn't get to actually make a pair for myself. :( These boots would have been about ankle high and were worn inside leather shoes, much like socks and could be decorated with embroidery. They were made from cleaned and carded wool and were felted in one three dimentional piece, i.e. no seams. I believe the instructor said that the technique was also used in other parts of Europe during some of the earlier time periods, but eventually lost popularity everywhere except Scandinavia, where they're still being made today. They seemed to be lots of fun to make, especially with a friend since some of the final stages basically involved giving each other a foot rub with the warm, wet soapy boots on to cause the felt to shrink and custom fit them to your own feet. Ananda hhoffman@uwf.edu ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Oct 1996 17:27:33 -0700 From: Cynthia Virtue Subject: Re: Tricia--Hennin questions Diana Dills wrote: >The black velvet loop at the front of hennins is thought by some to hide >a stiff wire, which is worn pressed flat against the forehead and helps >anchor the hennin so it does not slip backwards off the head. > >There are extant examples of this, and also it is seen in some later >folk costumes in certain areas of Europe-- I missed the first posting of this one, but I have one comment and a question: The loop wasn't always black velvet, although certainly black is the most common color. The lady on the horse in the Falconry panel of the Devonshire Hunting Tapestries (which can be seen in the Medieval Lovers book of days) has a brown loop. Due to the uncertainty of the tapestry, one could even argue that it is chain, although I'd believe it's fabric. I have a few other drawings where the loop is more of a triangle; these seem to be used in the taller cones, perhaps the difference in shape is aesthetic. [Round loops for rounder hats, triangles for cones.) I haven't before heard of extant examples from the medieval period; most of what I have heard of roundabout and in the H-Costume archives are all "it could have been done this way," or "this is a way I do it and it seems to work well." Extant examples would be great; on this point the Museum of London books are indeterminate. Does anyone have knowledge of actual hats recovered? Good fortune to you all, Cynthia --- Cynthia Virtue, or sometimes Lady Cynthia du Pre Argent "Hey, ma, that's a neat quotation! Can I wear it?" Ursula K. Leguin, speaking of her debt to early writers. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Oct 1996 18:34:51 -0700 From: Margo Anderson Subject: Hennin questions (SNIP) >The black velvet loop at the front of hennins is thought by some to hide >a stiff wire, which is worn pressed flat against the forehead and helps >anchor the hennin so it ddoes not slip backwards off the head. > I once made a VERY extreme hennin for an SCA event, after I somehow challenged someone to millinery. The challenge was to make a medieval hat using at least five yards of fabric. I liked the "Butterfly" style of hennin, which incorporates an additional antennae shaped wire at the front of the hennin over which veiling is draped. All the examples of this style showed the shaved head look, which I was unwilling to use. Another style of hennin, without the antennae, was worn over a velvet hood with a turned back border. Since the basic concept was silliness, I decided to throw accuracy to the winds and wear the butterfly hennin over a hood. I made the hood of velvet, with a pearl edging and jeweled ornaments. Then I made a basic "conehead" about 18" long, covered with ivory antique satin upholstery material, which I kept on in the following way: I braided my hair in two braids and pinned them very securely around my head, fitting the cone and undercap to the increased circumference. I made the v-shaped wire covered with velvet described above, and pinned it to the braids with lots of bobby pins. Then I pinned the hood to my braids, using pearl headed cosage pins, and finally pinned the hennin though the hood and braids. I draped the whole thing with eight yards of sheer veiling, long enough to make a train behind me, pinning the veiling to the point of the hennin, tips of the wires, and the hood. I wore it for an entire evening, and it was surprisingly comfortable. It did pull a bit at my hair, but it was bearable, and as long as I was careful of the train and going through doors, it really wasn't a problem to move in. Someday (If I ever get around to going to another SCA event) I'll probably make an accurate version. As I recall, my "challengee" made himself a liripipe hood some fourteen feet long. AND there was another person there who hadn't heard about the challenge, but still qualified--in a Middle Eastern turban that was made of a dozen yards of silk. Margo Anderson One Tough Costumer ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Oct 1996 23:05:41 -0400 From: Jafath@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Hairnets (deja vu) In a message dated 96-10-15 20:59:48 EDT, aleed@DNACO.NET (aleed) writes: > I tried making a net by hand and failed rather miserably, >and so am now searching for one of these obscure items. Does anyone know >the name of the implement used to make hairnets in the middle ages, and >more to the point, where I might find such a thing? > > Didn't I see netting needles (and isn't that what they're called?) in a catalog of lacemaking supplies, maybe Lacis? And what kind of thread are you thinking of? (I had the same impulse when I read that chapter!) Jo Anne ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Oct 1996 23:05:48 -0400 From: Jafath@AOL.COM Subject: Re: naalbinding In a message dated 96-10-15 18:00:01 EDT, Tess1929@AOL.COM (Tess Parrish) writes: >Can anyone direct me to information, and especially directions for making, on >naalbinding (there are various spellings).. Thanks, Tess > > The naalbinding directions given in Rutt's _History of Hand Knitting_ look pretty do-able. Jo Anne demon knitter ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Oct 1996 23:05:55 -0400 From: Jafath@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Eleanora's Stockings Tell ya what -- Anyone who wants a copy of the "Eleanora's Stockings" knitting pattern can send me a SASE (number 10 size). Send it to: Jo Anne Fatherly 249R Powell Avenue Newburgh, NY 12550 I made a bunch of copies today, so I should be able to get it back to you fairly quickly. (This message has bounced three times so far for "full mailbox" problems.) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Oct 1996 20:34:47 -0700 From: Karen & Jackie Subject: Submissions to the list Hi I've sent several submissions to the costume list but I have seen none of them there. Am I doing something wrong? Please let me know. Thanks Karen Fouracre ------------------------------ End of H-COSTUME Digest - 15 Oct 1996 to 16 Oct 1996 **************************************************** From ???@??? Fri Oct 18 14:14:04 1996 Received: from brownvm.brown.edu by mail.math.TU-Berlin.DE with SMTP id AA04842 (5.67b8/IDA-1.5 for ); Fri, 18 Oct 1996 05:07:54 +0100 Message-Id: <199610180407.AA04842@mail.math.TU-Berlin.DE> Received: from BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU by BROWNVM.brown.edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with BSMTP id 7434; Fri, 18 Oct 96 00:02:40 EDT Received: from BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU (NJE origin LISTSERV@BROWNVM) by BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 2221; Fri, 18 Oct 1996 00:02:36 -0400 Date: Fri, 18 Oct 1996 00:02:05 -0400 Reply-To: Historic Costume List Sender: Historic Costume List From: Automatic digest processor Subject: H-COSTUME Digest - 16 Oct 1996 to 17 Oct 1996 To: Recipients of H-COSTUME digests There are 20 messages totalling 597 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. H-COSTUME Digest - 13 Oct 1996 to 14 Oct 1996 2. Various 3. Orvus (2) 4. Tudor undersleeves 5. Tricia--Hennin questions 6. 16th C. costumes 7. Tudor shoulders 8. We Need Your HELP!!! 9. SCA Stuff 10. oops! 11. wedding dresses of the late 11c to early 13c 12. Belts 13. Socks, Warm Feet, and Medieval Footwear 14. Submissions to the list (2) 15. Empire Gowns (2) 16. Garbaldi shirts and myths 17. wedding rings ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 16 Oct 1996 22:16:01 -0700 From: Sandra McDaniel Subject: Re: H-COSTUME Digest - 13 Oct 1996 to 14 Oct 1996 Maggie Percival mentioned a publication, THE MANTLE, with which I am unfamiliar. I'd appreciate any info on it. Thanks ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Oct 1996 22:35:15 -0700 From: Julie Adams Subject: Re: Various Caroline wrote: >However, I think someone put her finger on the question when she mentioned >definitions. I think I have quite a tight definition of T-Tunic, which I >gave before - essentially I think of it as an *unfitted* garment with as >few seams as possible. Julie has quite a broad definition, which includes >fitting, and gores. Actually most of my example references are of loose fitted garments that have pretty much the same sillouette as SCA t-tunics or early period tunics, and are mostly mid-thigh length (but of course, if belted have the narrow belts predominant in Europe at the time, and no fantasy "O" ring tang-less buckles.) My discussion of the dress that was fitted is not my definition of a T-tunic, but was meant to show an evolution of this simple patterning technique. > Would any handweaver amongst us care to comment on the >width that is convenient for throwing the shuttle? While I'm not a weaver myself, some of my friends have some older American looms which can weave fabric between 36 and 40" wide. Though the widest I've seen them weave is about 35". I'll delve into this a bit more. I have some values in cm for some 15th and 16th c Italian fabrics. I'll try to do some conversions in the next week to figure out the width comparisons. I'll see if I can get some "off-line" input from some friends not on the list currently, but who also have done a lot of medieval weaving/fabric industry research. >Vote for wool! and linen! A resounding YES! :-) >My husband >too usually has the back points unlaced, which is often seen, tho not >universally. I wonder if men helped each other in lacing up? One certainly wonders. My husband has found it pretty difficult to remove the outer weaponry, belts, rocks, capes, etc. to get down to the underdoublet. Where do you put it all when waiting for a porta-john or men's room? They rarely have an "accessories and overgarments" table set aside... >The side closing decorative top part >(again boned to be smooth) is attached at a side seam and then pinned on >the other side (I cheated and used hooks and eyes). You may not be far off in using hooks and eyes, given that Anne of Cleves would have brought the concept of hook and eyeing gowns from the Netherlands. The "Cranach" bodices of that era and earlier use hooks and eyes to achieve the wide open front bodice (which she is shown wearing in her Holbein portrait). Usually the sides of the bodice are attached by hooks and eyes to the heavily embroidered fancy placket across the breast. We've found that a hidden lacing rings or strip under the edge of the bodice works really well for the lacings which start below that decorated placket and go to the waist. (The wide single zig-zag lacing you see on the German "lace across the front" Cranach bodices). While so different from the English styles, I can see a few common evolutionary fashion and technique concepts between the English and German of the same era. I can easily imagine either what Caroline describes. I can also hypothesize a hidden lacing strip under that side front lacing the inner lining together, with the outer fabric overlapped and pinned. >German(?) woodcuts from the 1500s or 1520s showing bathhouses which, as far >as I remember, show them uncovered but the hair dressed normally (pinned >up) or wearing turban things. Has anyone any evidence about this, or is it >something that comes from what they wore when doing penance? German "bathhouse" workers and attendees (both men and women) usually wore a woven basket hat. Usually a pillbox shape, sometimes wider on the top, but sometimes even fitted on the head. I have _no_ clue about the history or reasons as to why this hat in particular. But it is called "badehut" -- bath hat... Julie Adams ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Oct 1996 22:35:20 -0700 From: Julie Adams Subject: Re: Orvus >Is Orvus pure sodium laurel sulphate? (should tell you on the >label) >Is it a dry chemical or a paste as one of the names suggests? >How much do you dilute it for washing things like silk, raw wool >both in the fleece and spun, and horses before shows :-)? >How much does it cost in the USA for what quantities? > >Annette Wilson I'll try to pick some up on my next run to a feed store to check. I really can't remember the cost, but I know they are jacking up the price for heirloom sewers and selling it in little bottles for a huge markup. I used to buy a about a gallon bucket of it for about $10. But that was a few years ago. I wouldn't expect it to be more than about $25 a gallon nowadays though. I used to use it on my horses all the time. It was a soft creamy soap. Thicker than normal shampoos. I would just scoop it out with my fingers about like a shampoo. Not diluted, but put on directly and lathered up (for washing horses...) Julie Adams ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Oct 1996 17:53:28 +1000 From: "P. M. Ostwald" Subject: Re: Tudor undersleeves Lisa asked: > > The only back view I've been able to find of this style of gown is >the 1540 sketch by Holbein and the lappet of the headdress covers the >sleeve-shoulder area :\ The part of the sketch that I can see indicates >that something does go up the back, but where does it go _to_? Would it >taper off to a point and end somewhere at the back of the shoulder? >Almost looks like the bodice back and sleeve are one piece although I'm >sure it can't be. The French Valois Tapestries book, that I mentioned recently, has several back views of costumes. These gowns are 1560+ and French, but have a similar shape (as viewed from the front) to the later Tudor gowns. They similarly have no shoulder straps. The back of the gown comes straight or with slight upwards curvature, across at mid upper back (above shoulder blades) and joins straight on to the sleeves.(you can see the seams between sleeves and bodice clearly) Tricia ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Patricia Ostwald Newcastle Mater Hospital Medical Physicist Locked Bag 7 Radiation Oncology Department Newcastle Region Mail Centre 2310, NSW, Australia ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Oct 1996 18:01:48 +1000 From: "P. M. Ostwald" Subject: Re: Tricia--Hennin questions Diana writes: >The black velvet loop at the front of hennins is thought by some to hide >a stiff wire, which is worn pressed flat against the forehead and helps >anchor the hennin so it ddoes not slip backwards off the head. This does work. I made mine as a black velvet around wire, and it was useful for resettling the hennin. >Also, at the time hennins were being worn, it was the height of fashion >for women to pluck or shave the hairline at the forehead and the nape of >the neck so these headdresses could be worn without hair showing. Brows >also seem non-existent during this period, so plucking and shaving must >have been quite extensive. > >I think if I were wearing a hennin, I'd have to draw the line at shaving >my forehead! (Not-Quite-an-Authentinazi!) That's why I used a Flemish hennin, with the black velvet hoodlike bit at the front. It looked quite good, and no hair shaving required. So I guess it comes down to having lots of hair, well braided and attatched firmly in place, to pin the hennin to. (much like Margo suggested) It must have been an odd look, when seen without the hennin - front top and outer edges of hairline shaved, as well as eyebrows, but long hair at back of head (sort of Centauri:-) - with apologies for the non-historical costume reference!) Tricia ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Patricia Ostwald Newcastle Mater Hospital Medical Physicist Locked Bag 7 Radiation Oncology Department Newcastle Region Mail Centre 2310, NSW, Australia ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Oct 1996 18:33:04 +1000 From: "P. M. Ostwald" Subject: Re: 16th C. costumes Lisa wrote: > I haven't tried this yet--in fact, I'm working on it now--but I >read somewhere (the Rialto archives?) that that method works very nicely >if you bone the stomacher well and place the pins perpendicular rather >than parallel to the stomacher edge. I think it was also mentioned that >it stayed on securely even with lots of movement. > Tried to track the file down but their server seems to be down. I >think it was under clothing-->fastenings. Thanks, I tracked it down. Address is: http://www.pbm.com/~lindahl/rialto/fasteners-msg.html for anyone else interested (1/2 way down page after discussion on buttons) I'll try this on my next Tudur. Tricia ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Patricia Ostwald Newcastle Mater Hospital Medical Physicist Locked Bag 7 Radiation Oncology Department Newcastle Region Mail Centre 2310, NSW, Australia ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 17 Oct 1996 09:59:00 BST From: Mrs C S Yeldham Subject: Tudor shoulders Well, I checked my pictures of the 1540s, of Mary and Elizabeth and any others I could find (mainly the Dynasties exhibition book). Not Jane Seymour as I can't find my copy of Ashelford (lamentations through the house!). I can't see *anything* under the jewellery which runs around the neck edge of these gowns - the jewellery looks pretty solid to me, certainly on the young Elizabeth there are lots of pearls! It makes sense to me that the jewels are mounted on the very narrow shoulder straps. I know several people have said these gowns don't have these straps and what we see are the sleeve heads, but I still don't see how the shoulders would stay up! Sorry, Julie, haven't had a chance yet to look for T-tunics - been too busy in the garden! Caroline ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Oct 1996 19:22:38 +0400 From: "Michael A. Sniggin" Subject: We Need Your HELP!!! Gentlemen! Please, read this message over - this is not an ads or something like that. We are living in the South Urals, Russia and we are trying to connect our society, our people to the Internet by new technologies - just to have normal conditions to work with this Great Net. What we have now is just a mockery - sometimes 25 bytes/sec (!!!). But new equipment is very expensive. So we are trying to collect the sum we need by donations of persons holding the same views. If you sympathise our ideas and consider it possible to send us some money - it would be accepted with warm gratitude. We would be also very grateful to all advises too, our mail - specle@specle.chel.su Thank you for reading this message over, and - forgive us for taking your time. Yours virtually, Yang businessmen. Please transfer ANY sum to the: BENEFICIARY: Lazarev Yuri Ivanovich, Russia ACCOUNT # 008100072 With Savings Bank Of Russian Federation (SBERBANK) C.H.I.P.S. Number 3212333 SWIFT Code - SABRRUMM Kurchatovskoe Branch 8053 In Favour Account # 7207001394/001 (for USD) # 7207000088/048 (for DM) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 17 Oct 1996 12:17:11 -0500 From: "Lorraine E. Weiss" Subject: Orvus I could not find Oruvs at any of agricultural supply stores and most of the horse-related businesses in my area, but finally found it at a tack shop -- a 7.5 pound container (8 oz. under a gallon) for $15.00 (US). Worth the search. Lorraine E. Weiss, Education Director Rensselaer County Historical Society, Troy, NY , (rchs@crisny.org) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 17 Oct 1996 11:10:27 -0700 From: Daniel Wright Subject: Re: SCA Stuff On Wed, 16 Oct 1996, Kelly A Rinne wrote: > I actually wasn't trying to polarize anyone. I happen to find extremely > offensive messages from rec/sca folks who address everyone as milord or > milady, and then we have to tolerate a message full of faux-olde-English > patois be fore we get to their costume-oriented question. > Just trying to establish professionalism....:) > Kel > Kel; Have you thought maybe it's a way to address unknown people in a polite fashion without trying to be rude!!!!!!! I'm very sorry if this is a problem for you . I thought it was just being polite and courtious. As a matter of fact, I am a SCA member but was a costume designer FIRST!! Historical dress has always been my passion along with designing. SORRY TO CAUSE SUCH DISSTRESS!!!!!!! Danie'l Marie Wright dwright@clark.edu ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 17 Oct 1996 14:24:28 -0400 From: Psyche09@AOL.COM Subject: oops! I accidentally deleted the posts regarding "ample-breasted women and George V dresses" (or was it George III? My memory for history is sadly lacking!) If anyone still has them I would greatly appreciate a re-post, or you could e-mail me directly. We are costuming a play and our more generously busted actresses are not exactly in harmony with the empire waists! Thank you! ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 17 Oct 1996 11:41:49 -0700 From: Daniel Wright Subject: Re: wedding dresses of the late 11c to early 13c On Tue, 15 Oct 1996, Noelle Nicol wrote: > As has been the case in the past, I'm sure you will receive a great deal of > advice on your dress, but more information is needed first: What period of > Irish history are you emulating? > Please be specific as to century. > > As to fabrics, wool and linen were most common, usually embroidered in > contrasting silk thread. For the wealthier of the nobles a silk smock or > stockings may have been worn. The silk, again, depends on the time period you > choose for your dress. > > YIS, > > Lady Lyssandre Mac Kenzie This most likely will be a early 13c handfasting. I was thinking linen blouse velvet bodice and silver brocaid skirt. My hertiage is Native American, German, and Irish. Our colors are grey emerald green and silver. Any other suggestions? > Danie'l Marie Wright dwright@clark.edu ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 17 Oct 1996 15:22:43 -0400 From: Annikki Weston Subject: Belts On Wed, 16 Oct 1996, Julie Adams wrote: > Actually most of my example references are of loose fitted garments that > have pretty much the same sillouette as SCA t-tunics or early period > tunics, and are mostly mid-thigh length (but of course, if belted have the > narrow belts predominant in Europe at the time, and no fantasy "O" ring > tang-less buckles.) You mean those long leather belts with a metal ring on one end, tied about the waist in a fashion similar to the way one ties the girth on a western saddle, leaving a dangling end, aren't period? They're fantasy-based? Ack! If this is true, perhaps it should be added to the list of myths in costuming. Darn, and I really like them! Annikki Weston Lady Adele Desfontaines, SCA weston@tardis.svsu.edu ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 17 Oct 1996 13:03:45 -0700 From: Diana Dills Subject: Socks, Warm Feet, and Medieval Footwear I have researched European footwear from 600-1200 a.d., and the most common solution to this problem was, as one writer said, wrapping the feet in rags (for the peasant classes, at least). There have been documented finds, such as the man found buried in ice in the Alps a couple of years ago, who stuffed their shoes with straw or grass. Moss was also used in some areas. I have made leather shoes from patterns and diagams in Margarethe Hald's excellent book, circa 600-1000, and I wear these for reenactments. my favorite method of keeping my feet warm, and it works quite well, is to take a tuft of carded raw wool and stuff the toes of my shoes with it. Even in cold, wet, Pacific Northwest weather, my feet stay reasonably warm, if somewhat damp. DIANA DILLS *UWPD* ddills@u.washington.edu ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 17 Oct 1995 16:37:58 -0400 From: Sharon and/or Mikie Subject: Submissions to the list >X-Sender: medieval@prcn.org (Unverified) >Date: Wed, 16 Oct 1996 20:34:47 -0700 >Reply-To: Karen & Jackie >Sender: Historic Costume List >From: Karen & Jackie >Subject: Submissions to the list >To: Multiple recipients of list H-COSTUME > > > Hi >I've sent several submissions to the costume list but I have seen none of >them there. Am I doing something wrong? >Please let me know. >Thanks >Karen Fouracre > Hello! I have had the same problem, but even messages that I didn't recieve were answered by members of the group. Hmmm...Curiouser and curiouser... Sharon ***************************** * * * DON'T MESS WITH TECHIES - * * * * THEY ALL CARRY KNIVES * * * ***************************** ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 17 Oct 1996 15:45:16 MDT From: Lyssa/Maggie Griggs Subject: Re: Submissions to the list Sharon and/or Mikie Wrote: | >From: Karen & Jackie | > Hi | >I've sent several submissions to the costume list but I have seen none of | >them there. Am I doing something wrong? | >Please let me know. | >Thanks | >Karen Fouracre | > | | Hello! | | I have had the same problem, but even messages that I didn't recieve were | answered by members of the group. | | Hmmm...Curiouser and curiouser... | | Sharon I had both problems with the list earlier this year. The first turned out to be a problem with my net provider rather than the list. Seems to have been archiving instead of forwarding. I actually had a few of the messages turn up months after they were sent. Caused some real interesting problems. :) Alternately, if someone actually replys to a message you sent but didn't get a copy of, check the options set for your ID with the list. Send a help message to the list administrator. Your ID may be set to not send you a copy of messages you send. The address for requests is in the letter sent just after we moved to the most recent list address. I've a copy of the letter if you need it. Good Luck! Lyssa mgriggs@shepards.com or Lyssa@kktv.com http://www.usa.net/~norseman/costume.html ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 17 Oct 1996 19:36:40 -0400 From: Ed Safford & Carol Kocian Subject: Empire Gowns With the rising popularity of 1812 reenacting and as we're reaching the bicentennial of the era, people are getting more interested in the Empire style. I've used pattern drafts from Blanche Payne and Janet Arnold to make this style. I've only made two dresses, so my experience with it is limited! I own a copy of the Folkwear pattern but haven't used it yet. Someone told me it comes up short in the authenticity department. Does anyone else have any comments? What other patterns out there are good? I prefer working with the drafts, but I get information requests from friends who want a pattern. Any advice? Thanks! -Carol *^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^* This account is shared by Carol Kocian and Ed Safford. Carol can also be e-mailed at ckocian@epe.org Ed can be reached at ecsaffor@ingr.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 17 Oct 1996 20:49:48 -0700 From: Glenna Jo & Bill Christen Subject: Re: Empire Gowns Ed Safford & Carol Kocian wrote: > > I own a copy of the Folkwear pattern but haven't used > it yet. Someone told me it comes up short in the authenticity > department. Does anyone else have any comments? I tried it, and my results, and that of others is the main reason I was seriously put off by the whole era! My reaction is "Run Away! Run Away!" :-) Glenna Jo Christen gwjchris@rust.net ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 17 Oct 1996 19:29:07 -0700 From: Elizabeth Pruyn Subject: Garbaldi shirts and myths Hi there, I admit I'm a women of certain years who has fallen for the white blouse myth. In the interest of accuracy, my question is: Is the use of the blouse incorrect or just the white fabric for "matrons"? If it's the fabric, what types would be appropriate for an upper-middle class English woman? I do not pattern draft, scale, etc. and find having a pattern for a mid-victorian blouse a handy thing. I'd like to continue to use it. Also, have any of you looked at the new Past Patterns patterns- The Wrapper and the Sacque Dress. What do you think of them? Thanks, Elizabeth Elizabeth Pruyn iteach@slip.net Oakland, CA "If I had been around when Rubens was painting, I would have been revered as a fabulous model. Kate Moss? Well, she would have been the paint brush..." - Dawn French ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 17 Oct 1996 22:39:49 +0500 From: Ann Orr Subject: Re: wedding rings >The question about which finger a wedding ring was worn, made me suddenly >realise that wedding rings were worn on different fingers. Can someone give >me a brief list of which finger and when up to 19th century? Send it >privately if you don't want to tie up the list. > >thank you >Alexa Fletcher >al.desantis@sympatico.ca I'd be interested in seeing a list like this, too. Lone Heart, lneheart@vianet.on.ca So many ideas, so little time! "Sorry, I thought it was a cariboo. So many hunting accidents around here." DS Pilot. ------------------------------ End of H-COSTUME Digest - 16 Oct 1996 to 17 Oct 1996 **************************************************** From ???@??? Mon Oct 21 10:59:28 1996 Received: from brownvm.brown.edu by mail.math.TU-Berlin.DE with SMTP id AA13467 (5.67b8/IDA-1.5 for ); Sat, 19 Oct 1996 05:07:52 +0100 Message-Id: <199610190407.AA13467@mail.math.TU-Berlin.DE> Received: from BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU by BROWNVM.brown.edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with BSMTP id 1347; Sat, 19 Oct 96 00:01:10 EDT Received: from BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU (NJE origin LISTSERV@BROWNVM) by BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 8343; Sat, 19 Oct 1996 00:01:06 -0400 Date: Sat, 19 Oct 1996 00:00:37 -0400 Reply-To: Historic Costume List Sender: Historic Costume List From: Automatic digest processor Subject: H-COSTUME Digest - 17 Oct 1996 to 18 Oct 1996 To: Recipients of H-COSTUME digests There are 34 messages totalling 879 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. Garbaldi shirts and myths (2) 2. Belts (4) 3. Carol, I've lost you... 4. nalbinding (4) 5. H-COSTUME Digest - 13 Oct 1996 to 14 Oct 1996 6. Masterpiece Theatre's Moll Flanders (2) 7. wedding cloths 8. wool cleaning/washing 9. Messages to the List 10. coin dots and linen 11. Tricia--Hennin questions 12. Belts / Buckles 13. coin dots 14. Empire Gowns 15. Empire gowns (2) 16. cc:Mail SMTPLINK 2.0 Undeliverable Message 17. Children's Garb - was: Belts (3) 18. striped silk 19. Using a tartain in "The Nutcracker" 20. striped silk-1780's polonaise 21. Time line costume books 22. hair does what? 23. 16th C. costumes ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 17 Oct 1996 21:08:50 -0700 From: Julie Adams Subject: Re: Garbaldi shirts and myths >In the interest of accuracy, my question is: Is the use of the >blouse incorrect or just the white fabric for "matrons"? If it's the >fabric, what types would be appropriate for an upper-middle class English >woman? > >Elizabeth And another question is: Is the white blouse/colored skirt thing just inappropriate for American women during the years of the Civil War? or was it really not used in England, Europe, during that period as well? and America in the decades before and after?....my Godeys and Harpers sure shows quite a few....If they are appropriate during the Victorian period, where? when? Julie Adams ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 17 Oct 1996 21:08:44 -0700 From: Julie Adams Subject: Re: Belts >You mean those long leather belts with a metal ring on one end, tied >about the waist in a fashion similar to the way one ties the girth on a >western saddle, leaving a dangling end, aren't period? They're >fantasy-based? Ack! If this is true, perhaps it should be added to the >list of myths in costuming. Darn, and I really like them! > >Annikki Weston Yup, thems the ones:-) I have never seen any documentation of that "O" ring tangless buckle. And have looked. hard. If a tang is added (which is pretty darn easy) and holes punched in the belt, then there are examples in earlier periods (like I think 14th and 15th), but 16th c. belts are normall narrow -- around an inch wide, and have buckles. Narrow sashes and cords are also seen quite a bit in the first 1/2 of the 16th c. That metal ring was probably originally used because it was very quick and easy to make and was readily adjustable for various size people. Anyway, just my guess.... Julie Adams ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Oct 1996 00:15:20 -0400 From: SyRilla@AOL.COM Subject: Carol, I've lost you... I am sorry to post this, but I am look for Carol in Glasgow, Scotland. My computer is acting up and has lost many of my addresses. Thank you Kimberly ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Oct 1996 00:24:01 -0400 From: Tess Parrish Subject: nalbinding Having received TWELVE inquiries to date--and I haven't checked my mail since this morning--I went down to the local printing place and have come up with a cost of $4.00 per. This is what it would cost me to print thirty pages, buy an envelope, and put stamps on it. If interested, please send me an S-mail address. I will post a list of every name as I send them off. Those on today's list who sent me addresses will be mentioned tomorrow. Tess ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Oct 1996 00:54:40 -0400 From: Morigianna@AOL.COM Subject: Re: H-COSTUME Digest - 13 Oct 1996 to 14 Oct 1996 In a message dated 96-10-15 00:33:37 EDT, you write: << I'm in a quest for l9ovly patterns of wedding garb of the late 1100 centery to early 1300 as well as knowledge of handfastings ceramonies. your help will be much apperiencated. >> DragonMarsh (909) 276-1116 has a Historical Wedding Consultant who has several ceremonies as she is a minister also. I know this 'cause It's ME! Call me or e-mail me for more info. Misty (909) 276-1116 Morigianna@aol.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 17 Oct 1996 22:04:50 PDT From: Venus Envy Subject: Masterpiece Theatre's Moll Flanders Ok, I can't believe I haven't heard anything about this yet - I saw Masterpiece Theatre's Moll Flanders *twice* this week [I love living in an area where I get three public channels] I enjoyed it so much... it's not an era I've ever been interested in much, but I thought it was costumed *beautifully* and now I really must have one of those dresses! so I'm wondering - was it costumed accurately? what years exactly is it set in? if I were to get a pattern approximating those dresses from Raiments or Amazon, which one would come the closest? I've always been intimidated by the huge panniers of the 18th, but what Moll & company were shown in seemed much more reasonable in the way of undergarments - though I couldn't tell exactly what they were supposed to be wearing underneath their skirts - it didnt' look like hoops to me, it looked more like an oversized - more emphasis on the hips - bumroll. Any guesses? just had to ask... -heather meadows ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Oct 1996 01:19:18 -0400 From: Morigianna@AOL.COM Subject: wedding cloths In a message dated 96-10-18 00:11:59 EDT, you write: << >The question about which finger a wedding ring was worn, made me suddenly >realise that wedding rings were worn on different fingers. >> Just thought someone might know this answer too. I have been doing various handfastin/weddings for the last year (minister) I have several ceremonies but someone asked a bout a celtic wedding cloth that takes the place of rings? I have tied peoples hands together but am unfimiliar with this. HELP? Misty Morigianna@aol.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Oct 1996 01:19:21 -0400 From: Morigianna@AOL.COM Subject: wool cleaning/washing I just bought 6 yds of real(!) wool to make a cape for the SCA. Normally I prewash all fabrics but I'm not sure how to with the wool. I wash cotton on hot and dry on hot to shrink it. Should I wash the wool or plan on drycleaning it? Misty Morigianna@aol.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Oct 1996 10:14:00 0BS From: "Chandler, Sally A." Subject: Messages to the List I'm the most inept user of this list so I have to ask and a while ago I asked why I don't get the messages I send to the list. If I remember rightly I was told that, since the list moved about 6 weeks ago your own messages will not be sent to you but will go to the rest of the list. I find it a bit odd as I never know whether I've got the information to the right place. Perhaps the technology has to work like this? That's not a lot of help, I know, but perhaps it sheds some light on the situation, Sally Ann Chandler ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Oct 1996 07:29:02 -0400 From: Eric Praetzel Subject: Re: Belts > >You mean those long leather belts with a metal ring on one end, tied > >about the waist in a fashion similar to the way one ties the girth on a > >western saddle, leaving a dangling end, aren't period? They're > > Yup, thems the ones:-) I have never seen any documentation of that "O" ring > tangless buckle. And have looked. hard. If a tang is added (which is pretty > darn easy) and holes punched in the belt, then there are examples in > earlier periods (like I think 14th and 15th), but 16th c. belts are normall As a tablet weaver I spend time making belts for people. If a belt were made by putting a tang thru the fabric; the belt would soon be destroyed. A round loop thru which the belt is wraped gives a strong, non-destroying closure. So I'd like to believe that the O ring design is period if only out of bare necessity. Of course belts can be woven with a fabric loop at the end; although I have yet to see a belt made that way. I've done it for my one piece woven flute holders where the belt loop and hollow tube is all woven in one go. But I'm not claiming that to be period; just fun to make. - Eric ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Oct 1996 07:48:32 -0400 From: MsSheep@AOL.COM Subject: Re: coin dots and linen Hello - Thanks to the list - I now have two bolts of very nice linen from Ragfinders. Anyone wanting details pls e-mail me. I would like to trade several yards of this for thin white linen suitable for coifs. I am looking for documentation on the use of coin dot material in the 18th century. I have several books where this is mentioned, but want additional documentation. Anyone seen any? Thanks! Dianne in Indy mssheep@aol.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Oct 1996 15:06:14 +2 From: Ella Lynoure Rajamaki Subject: Re: Belts > As a tablet weaver I spend time making belts for people. > If a belt were made by putting a tang thru the fabric; the > belt would soon be destroyed. A round loop thru which the belt > is wraped gives a strong, non-destroying closure. So I'd like > to believe that the O ring design is period if only out of > bare necessity. I am also a tablet weaver and I have noticed the belts stay tied pretty well if you tie them into a simple or double knot, so I wouldn't say the O-ring would be necessary in any way. In fact, the first time I saw such ring as a method of tying a belt was only about a week ago and then it was worn as a part of fantasy costume. > - Eric Lynoure (who is very happy about her very long tablet woven (sp?) belt) Ella Lynoure Rajamaki--------------* lynoure@clinet.fi * -----------------------------------*er4055@bessel.tutech.fi* ------------------------------------------------------------ a small chaotic multi-era creature.------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Oct 1996 09:41:12 -0400 From: Tess Parrish Subject: nalbinding In case my previous postings don't show up, I repeat the information: I will gladly send out the 30-page folder on nalbinding to anyone who sends me an S-mail address (use Email). It costs me $4 to get it all together, so I would appreciate this when you receive your packet. I will print out all names on the Hist-Cost. list as I send them out. Tess ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Oct 1996 14:44:00 BST From: Mrs C S Yeldham Subject: Belts The Museum of London book on Textiles and the companion one on Dress Accessories make it perfectly clear the type of belts and belt accessories that were used, and belt buckles did have the cross pieces and the piece that goes through the fabric or leather (don't have it here and my memory's playing tricks on the technical terms!). What they didn't use was the roller around the cross-piece most modern belt buckles use. They also used decorative metal fixings as belt ends and along the length of the belt, as on pouches etc. The Museum of London books show these punched through the fabric (woven). We don't know whether contemporary weavers objected to this practice. Caroline ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Oct 1996 11:19:01 -0300 From: Margaret Rae Carignan Subject: Re: Tricia--Hennin questions The whole issue of hairline plucking or shaving, once again makes me glad to be Italian! In the pictures that I have of the Italian equivalent of a hennin (often seen in profile, making it hard to judge the actual shape), their hair showed at the front, and the back came very low on the head, hiding the natural hairline. Unless you, like me, have the lowest hairline possible, no plucking would be required. These hats have no wires in the front. The one I made (after "Man and Woman at a Casement" by Lippi) needed a weight in the padded roll to keep it in place. I used three or four heavy pipe washers in the centre of the roll, and the jewel at the centre helped too. I put one of those nice continuos flexible hair combs in the front, and wore my hair in a high ponytail. The thing stayed on great, and was surprisingly comfy (no getting into a car, though). The biggest problem was the drape, which is longer on one side, and quite heavy with pearls and spangles. The next one I make will have a counterweight in the shorter side of the drape. I think those covered continuous drapery weights would work nicely... Meg/Francesca ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Oct 1996 10:31:59 -0400 From: Mary Smith Subject: Re: nalbinding Thank you, thank you, thank you! Mary Denise Smith 4500 19th St #298 Boulder CO 80304-0619 ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Oct 1996 15:48:00 0BS From: "Chandler, Sally A." Subject: Belts / Buckles Caroline spoke about the type of buckle used in the late medieval period, and I was certain that was true until I visited the Historical Museum in Amsterdam last week. They have an oblong buckle about 1 inch by three quarters(without my notes) which they say is 15th /16th century which has a roller on one of the long sides. It would have fitted a belt or strap about three quarters of an inch wide and was quite heavy duty. The buckle is brass (by the looks of it) and otherwise looks far more like a modern buckle than one of that period and unlike the other buckles in their collection. There were also some lovely little round ones, just as Caroline described, with the tang, to fit a belt or strap about half an inch wide. I couldn't find anything like a catalogue in English. Does anyone know of any other examples? Sally Ann Chandler The Historical Clothing Company s.a.chandler@shu.ac.uk ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Oct 1996 09:49:30 -0500 From: Deb Subject: Re: Masterpiece Theatre's Moll Flanders >I've always been intimidated by the huge panniers of >the 18th, but what Moll & company were shown in seemed >much more reasonable in the way of undergarments - though >I couldn't tell exactly what they were supposed to be >wearing underneath their skirts - it didnt' look like >hoops to me, it looked more like an oversized - more emphasis >on the hips - bumroll. Any guesses? I haven't had time to see the show, so this is pure conjecture about what may have been worn. There WERW huge panniers. There WERE bumrolls. There were also "pocket hoops" which consist of a half-bucket shaped hoop worn on each hoop. (We also call them "buckets"). These would emphasize the hips more than the back, but can be perhaps 8-10" inches of projection on each hip, rather then the ~4 ft some court panniers have. Deb Baddorf baddorf@fnal.gov <===============================================================> < Deb Baddorf Fermilab, MS220 Arthurian,Inkling,&Regency fan baddorf@fnal.gov PO Box 500 Costumer, RevWar re-enactor Batavia, IL 60510 Computational Lexicography ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Oct 1996 09:58:01 -0500 From: Deb Subject: Re: coin dots >I am looking for documentation on the use of coin dot material in the 18th >century. I have several books where this is mentioned, but want additional >documentation. Anyone seen any? Thanks! Dianne in Indy mssheep@aol.com There is a book called "Toiles du Juoy" (or is that "de" ?) which I have further details on at home, but not here now. I interlibrary-loaned it a while back. It has a colored print of a bit of dotted fabric from the 18th century, produced at the noted fabric factories (did they use that term?) in Juoy, France. It's had to be sure of scale on the photo, but judging from the threads which can be seen, I estimated that the dots were no larger than an American quarter ($.25) coin. As I recall it was done in a "resist" technique ... the dot was lighter in color and the ground was darker (implying that the fabric started out light, and the background was printed onto it). There are also shots of tiny dots in "Textiles in America 1650-1870" I believe. But the Juoy book is the only picture I've found of "coin sized dots". Deb Baddorf <===============================================================> < Deb Baddorf Fermilab, MS220 Arthurian,Inkling,&Regency fan baddorf@fnal.gov PO Box 500 Costumer, RevWar re-enactor Batavia, IL 60510 Computational Lexicography ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Oct 1996 12:54:00 -0400 From: Gretchen M Beck Subject: Re: Empire Gowns Excerpts from internet.other.h-costume: 17-Oct-96 Re: Empire Gowns by Glenna & B. Christen@RUS > > > > I own a copy of the Folkwear pattern but haven't used > > it yet. Someone told me it comes up short in the authenticity > > department. Does anyone else have any comments? > > I tried it, and my results, and that of others is the main reason I > was seriously put off by the whole era! My reaction is "Run Away! > Run Away!" :-) Really? I used it to make my wedding gown, and was quite happy with it. I can't speak for its authenticity, and, of course, it required some fitting, but the resulting garment fit nicely, and looked good. toodles, gretchen ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Oct 1996 13:36:51 -0700 From: Glenna Jo & Bill Christen Subject: Re: Garbaldi shirts and myths Julie Adams wrote: >Is the use of the blouse incorrect or just the white fabric for matrons"? Based on massive surveys of CdV's taken during the years 1861-1865, white shirts and skirts were only rarely worn by young women, ie those who appear to be under about the age of 25. Of these women, less than 20% were photographed in such outfits. Almost no one over that visual age was photographed wearing this combination. What the overwhelming majority of women were wearing was a one piece dress in variations on the basic drop shoulder, snug waist, full pleated skirt style of the era. While the ladies' magazines of the era occasionally showed white "waists," these fashions were far outnumbered by the more typical one piece garment, further indicating that white "waists" were not typical attire for that time period. It was a young and "trendy" fashion. >Is the white blouse/colored skirt thing just inappropriate for American >women during the years of the Civil War? or was it really not used in >England, Europe, during that period as well? What references and CdV's I've seen from England and Europe indicate that this holds true there as well. The main difference between the two that I've observed is that the British & European fashions tend to be a bit more elaborate than the Americans. It could only mean that we are only seeing the high fashion extremes over here, but I have encountered contemporary accounts from Europeans traveling to the US in the early and mid-19th cent. who not only commented on how large Americans were, but how "Republican" we were in our mode of dress. (i.e. Plainer) >....in the decades before and after? In the 1850's there was a clear fashion for loose fitting, belted over garments called sacks in the US and canezou's in Britain. These were for very informal summer wear. They were often of fine white or white on white fabric. I have seen one in a painting of a young lady picking fruit with a young man as well as two ambrotypes of young women wearing them. I have also seen engravings of women doing household work wearing what appear to be colored versions of these also from the 1850's. I personally haven't seen anything like it in the 1860's though. After the mid '60's white shirts and skirts become progressivly more common as the young ladies who wore such combinations in the early '60's got older. I compare it to the generation who wore jeans and T-shirts in their teens who found them so practical they didn't give them up when they got older. My 75 year old mother even now occasionally wears them, but she would never have considered it when I was first wearing them in the '60's or even '70's. Glenna Jo Christen gwjchris@rust.net ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Oct 1996 14:23:01 -0400 From: Sheridan Alder & David Webb Subject: Re: Empire gowns My main complaint with the Folkwear Empire pattern is that it is too high-busted. I'm 5'9" so I'm on the tall side. Granted, several months ago a member of this list attended a lecture by a costume curator who stated that the bustline (waist) seam of "Empire" gowns were often placed an inch "up" the bust, so that the garment wouldn't rest on the abdomen. On the other hand, my impressions is the the waistline was constanting moving from under the bust to the lower ribs and back again. Jane Austen mentions lowering the waists of gowns in a letter to her sister. I've photocopied the plates from Ackermann's Repository, The Ladies Monthly Museum and La Belle Assemblee from c. 1807-1815 and the fashionable waistline did wander about. The low waistline on the "Empire" gown is REALLY unattractive! but they did wear it. The pattern from p. 132 of "Revolution in Fashion" is the basis of most of my gowns from this period. I'm not afraid to fiddle with a pattern to "get" the sleeve from one garment or the gathered bodice of another, etc. I altered the "Folkwear" pattern to imitate a Parks Canada prototype. The main difference was that the fullness in the bodice ran in different ways. I'm really tired of the cliche of the short, puffed, girlish, sleeves personally. There seems to have been tremendous variety. I've grown fond of the short, tight ones, and also the long, full sleeves, almost like bishop's sleeves, which are flat, but with a few full pleats at the head of the sleeves (not puffy!) The Folkwear patterns certainly doesn't seem to be screamingly inaccurate. Sheridan Alder ------------------------------------------------------------ Name : Sheridan Alder & David Webb Company : Sheridan Alder & David Webb Address : 145 Dalhousie Avenue City : St. Catharines, ON, Canada, L2N 4X6 Home Number: (905) 935-2729 ------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Oct 1996 11:36:05 PST From: Loren Dearborn Subject: cc:Mail SMTPLINK 2.0 Undeliverable Message Really? I used it to make my wedding gown, and was quite happy with it. I can't speak for its authenticity, and, of course, it required some fitting, but the resulting garment fit nicely, and looked good. I've got to agree with Gretchen. I've made this several times and never been dissatisfied, and I've had several friends of widely varying shapes and sizes make it and all looked quite pretty. It *does* look better with a regency corset than with a bra, but then most period clothes look better with their accompanying underwear...Just my 2 cents. Loren Dearborn ldearborn@calacademy.org ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Oct 1996 12:42:42 -0700 From: "Carol E. Newby" Subject: Children's Garb - was: Belts One point in favor of the O ring belt - by it's very nature it is a great piece for children. Our two are 6 & 9 and it seems that every time we prepare for an event I'm discovering that one of them has outgrown the majority of their garb, but their belts have yet to need to be replaced.;) Does anyone out there have suggestions for costuming children for the SCA? I have used some of the suggestions in Winter and Savoy's "Elizabethan Costuming..." and I would like to break away from t-tunics but still have the garb be comfortable and allow freedom of movement. What suggestions or tricks does anyone out there have for making garb that could "grow" with kids (for instance rows of tucks on shifts and skirts that can be let out). I'm sewing for both a boy and a girl (she's the older of the two). Thanks, Carol (in the SCA: Elspeth the Semstress of Dunkeld) ~~~*~~~*~~~*~~~*~~~*~~~*~~~*~~~*~~~*~~~*~~~*~~~*~~~*~~~*~~~*~~~ Carol E. Newby ladybug@falkor.neverending.webnexus.com http://falkor.neverending.webnexus.com/~ladybug "Unless you try to do something beyond what you have already mastered, you will never grow." ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Oct 1996 17:39:36 -0300 From: Margaret Rae Carignan Subject: striped silk I am planning to reproduce an 1780's gown from a portrait of "Mrs. Siddons" by Gainsborough; this is a school project, and I want it to be perfect. My problem is, I have no local source for a blue and white cross-grain striped silk (either a tafetta or a fine shantung would do, but the tafetta would be best). In fact, I need the striped silk, as well as a plain matching blue for the ruffles and neck-drape. The silk should have 3/4" white, and 1/4"blue stripes; the blue should be a deep sky blue. Any ideas of mail-order sources? I need the fabric by January 1, and the project has to be finished by April 1. I need about 7-10 yards of the strip, and probably about 3 of the solid blue. I hope to avoid the solution used by a woman in last year's class - she painted the stripes on her silk fabric with floral spray! Yikes! Luckily for me, I have a backup plan - the Gainsborough portrait of Mary, Duchess of Richmond, which is in a solid lavender blue silk, that I can get. I just think the other one is more interesting, being a polonaise (if you can call the bodice/skirt combo of this period a polonaise) over a same fabric petticoat. I am just starting research on this period, and have a lot to learn. I would appreciate any help you can give me. Thanks in advance. Meg/Francesca ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Oct 1996 16:47:22 -0400 From: aleed Subject: Re: Children's Garb - was: Belts > What suggestions or tricks does anyone out there have for making garb > that could "grow" with kids (for instance rows of tucks on shifts and > skirts that can be let out). I'm sewing for both a boy and a girl (she's > the older of the two). > I have a friend with three children who's in the same situation; i.e., every time she makes garb for her children, it lasts a total of 1 event before they outgrow it. for her daughter, she has a basic chemise with an elastic neck and wrists over which she puts an italian-rennish dress which laces in the back. when she'd found it grew too short for her, she just added a strip of complementary-colored fabric onto the bottom. Basically, she says that elastic is her friend. Drea ------------------------------- We've secretly replaced their dilithium crystals with new folgers crystals. Now let's watch them go to warp. ------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Oct 1996 14:33:13 -0700 From: Margaret Griffith Subject: Re: Children's Garb - was: Belts > > I have a friend with three children who's in the same situation; i.e., > every time she makes garb for her children, it lasts a total of 1 event > before they outgrow it. > > for her daughter, she has a basic chemise with an elastic neck and wrists > over which she puts an italian-rennish dress which laces in the back. > when she'd found it grew too short for her, she just added a strip of > complementary-colored fabric onto the bottom. Actually, adding to the bottom & sleeves of a garment is a very period tradition - while reading the Lisle letters, and some other correspondence from the 1500's, there are several accounts of people buying an ell or so of fabric to lengthen children's garments. They also would cut up one garment to make another one - e.g. cut up an old gown to make a doublet, etc. A sketch by Rubins in the early 1600's shows a toddler wearing a loose gown with a 3-4" hem and the sleeves rolled up, so you might try making things larger to start with and let them grow into them. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Oct 1996 16:35:07 -0500 From: Sheryl Nance-Durst Subject: Using a tartain in "The Nutcracker" This question came across my desk & I thought someone here on h-costume could give me a few tips. The tartan in question is green & red with gold threads. The time period of the ballet is the 1880-1890. If the tartan is not historically accurate, could anyone recommend some suitable fabric choices? >I have a patron whose daughter is going to be dancing in a local production >of the Nutcracker. She has purchased Christmas plaid to use as a cumberbund >and bow for a jumper in the party scene. She took it to her daughter's >dance instructor and he said she could only use it if it was historically >correct. She could go and purchase another 1/2 yd of material to use but >she says she is now going to prove to him that it is correct. >Could anyone out there help me or suggest where I may go for help? TIA :) > >Paula Carter >Oak Hill Public Library Thanks! Sheryl J. Nance-Durst ...one of the secret masters of Kansas City MO Public Library the world: a librarian. They p_sheryl@kcpl.lib.mo.us control information. Don't ever p**s one off. - Spider Robinson, _The Callahan Touch_ (Opinions expressed in this message do not reflect the viewpoint of the Kansas City MO Public Library.) ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Oct 1996 18:17:40 -0400 From: Tess Parrish Subject: nalbinding Copies have been sent (Oct 18) to the following: Phyllis Spurr Sharron Fina Juli Kupperman Linda Roy Blanche Krbechek Tess ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Oct 1996 17:14:30 -0500 From: Deb Subject: Re: striped silk-1780's polonaise Sounds like a wonderful project! 18th century is my pet area (1770's, but 1780 is close enough!) I hope you are planning to make a corset for it? It won't look the same without it ... Here are some mail-order silk addresses which have passed over the list in times past. I have never dealt with any of them, but others here have. Oriental Silk Co. these "stripes" were mentioned: 8377 Beverly Blvd. Satin stripe chiffon Los Angeles, CA 90048 Metallic stripe chiffon (213) 651-2323 Satin stripe crepe ---------------------------- Thai Silks 242 State Street Los Altos, CA 94022 Phone: (415) 948-8611 Fax: (415) 948-3426 Toll free numbers: 1-800-722-SILK 1-800-221-SILK (in California) " They'll send you a price list for free. For a $20 deposit they'll send you a swatch of EVERY fabric (400-450 samples). I believe you get the your deposit back if you place an order within a certain length of time. They also have a fabric club in which you get samples of all the newest fabrics 4 times a year for $20/year membership fee." -------------------------------- WinterSilks 2700 Laura Lane, P.O. Box 620130 Middleton, WI 53562 Customer service phone # is 1-800-621-3229, M - F, 8 am to 5 pm CST (Don't know if this is silk fabric, or a product called "wintersilks") <===============================================================> < Deb Baddorf Fermilab, MS220 Arthurian,Inkling,&Regency fan baddorf@fnal.gov PO Box 500 Costumer, RevWar re-enactor Batavia, IL 60510 Computational Lexicography ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Oct 1996 18:59:22 -0400 From: "Penny E. Ladnier" Subject: Time line costume books Here I go again with more questions about costume books... I am making a time line on costume books. I need to know what are the earliest costume books you have seen and the app. date of them. Also, please give a line or two about its contents. I am also looking for costume books published in all time frames. Don't be shy, you may have one that someone has not summited. When I finish this part of my report, I will post the results. Remember, if you are summiting a magazine, please include your earliest edition. Thank you in advance, Penny Penny E. Ladnier, Virginia Commonwealth University s0peladn@erols.com http://www.geocities.com/BourbonStreet/2157 "If it is out there, I'll find it..." ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Oct 1996 15:21:06 -0700 From: CBecht@LMUMAIL.LMU.EDU Subject: Re: Empire gowns Another explanation for the variance in bodice height/waistline is the variance in individual forms; the bustiness or non-bustiness of women. Also, corsets were worn by most and the bust pushed up... so I'm assuming the high-busted bodice looks better worn with a Regency corset. I'm working on one now, so I'll know soon enough. Has anyone else made the Mantua-Maker Regency-era corset? I used the Folkwear pattern for my first attempt at a Regency gown; however I only used the skirt portion of the pattern and mixed it with a different pattern's bodice and sleeves. It helped make a first project fun and didn't appear too inaccurate to me either. The skirt at least seems right on the money and its side panel seams look represented in at least one painting in Boucher. - Cynthia Becht - still a lurker fledging after lo, these many years cbecht@lmumail.lmu.edu ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Oct 1996 23:12:07 -0400 From: SyRilla@AOL.COM Subject: hair does what? I am sorry that this is not really a costume question, but more of an accent to the costume. I have made a basic 1870's bustle dress. I would say that it is more of a morning visiting dress, or such. I need suggestions on what to do with my hair. At the moment it is in long layers. About 2" below shoulders, cut in the v-shape (mid back is longer that the sides). I thought of adding extention, but I can't find a hair piece that matches my hair color. It is red and blond, almost a strawberry. I know that they curled or frizzed the bangs, and created a bustle like effect in the back, but how? And if head wear was worn what kind? Thanks in advance Kimberly SyRilla@aol.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Oct 1996 21:02:33 -0700 From: Joan M Jurancich Subject: Re: 16th C. costumes At 04:57 PM 10/14/96 +1000, P. M. Ostwald (Tricia) wrote [excerpts]: >Second question: French Hoods. The Clouet portraits of the 1540s Hoods all >show ties under the chin. I've used this in my French hood, which attaches >over a small cap, but it still drifts backward. That fall of >velvet/velveteen at the back is very heavy and the hood itself is not well >balanced. I have to keep settling it forward. > >Any ideas, suggestions? What about those Elizabethan versions of the French >Hood which perches on the back of the hair? It is pinned to the hair ? >(I've never noticed this in any portraits) How? I think that the problem you may be having is in trying to attach the hood (the part that drapes) to the crescent. I wore a French hood and crescent while participating in the recently completed Renaissance Pleasure Faire North (in California, USA). My headdress has three pieces: the coif, the hood, and the crescent. I found that if I put a braid of my hair from (approximately) ear-to-ear, that I could pin the hood and coif to my hair (the coif ties under the chin), and then put the crescent on so that it was supported by the braid. (I also folded the hood up so that it would not blow into my face.) When tied on under the back of the neck, I found the crescent quite stable (I only lost it during a particulary hilarious bit while laughing uproariously) for the full day of Faire (about 9 to 10 hours). The hood I made is of two layers of black silk (remnants are grand things), so it's not too heavy. I haven't done one in velvet. Hope this experience of mine can be of some use. Ciao, Joan Jurancich joanj@quiknet.com ------------------------------ End of H-COSTUME Digest - 17 Oct 1996 to 18 Oct 1996 **************************************************** From ???@??? Fri Oct 18 14:14:04 1996 Received: from brownvm.brown.edu by mail.math.TU-Berlin.DE with SMTP id AA04842 (5.67b8/IDA-1.5 for ); Fri, 18 Oct 1996 05:07:54 +0100 Message-Id: <199610180407.AA04842@mail.math.TU-Berlin.DE> Received: from BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU by BROWNVM.brown.edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with BSMTP id 7434; Fri, 18 Oct 96 00:02:40 EDT Received: from BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU (NJE origin LISTSERV@BROWNVM) by BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 2221; Fri, 18 Oct 1996 00:02:36 -0400 Date: Fri, 18 Oct 1996 00:02:05 -0400 Reply-To: Historic Costume List Sender: Historic Costume List From: Automatic digest processor Subject: H-COSTUME Digest - 16 Oct 1996 to 17 Oct 1996 To: Recipients of H-COSTUME digests There are 20 messages totalling 597 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. H-COSTUME Digest - 13 Oct 1996 to 14 Oct 1996 2. Various 3. Orvus (2) 4. Tudor undersleeves 5. Tricia--Hennin questions 6. 16th C. costumes 7. Tudor shoulders 8. We Need Your HELP!!! 9. SCA Stuff 10. oops! 11. wedding dresses of the late 11c to early 13c 12. Belts 13. Socks, Warm Feet, and Medieval Footwear 14. Submissions to the list (2) 15. Empire Gowns (2) 16. Garbaldi shirts and myths 17. wedding rings ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 16 Oct 1996 22:16:01 -0700 From: Sandra McDaniel Subject: Re: H-COSTUME Digest - 13 Oct 1996 to 14 Oct 1996 Maggie Percival mentioned a publication, THE MANTLE, with which I am unfamiliar. I'd appreciate any info on it. Thanks ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Oct 1996 22:35:15 -0700 From: Julie Adams Subject: Re: Various Caroline wrote: >However, I think someone put her finger on the question when she mentioned >definitions. I think I have quite a tight definition of T-Tunic, which I >gave before - essentially I think of it as an *unfitted* garment with as >few seams as possible. Julie has quite a broad definition, which includes >fitting, and gores. Actually most of my example references are of loose fitted garments that have pretty much the same sillouette as SCA t-tunics or early period tunics, and are mostly mid-thigh length (but of course, if belted have the narrow belts predominant in Europe at the time, and no fantasy "O" ring tang-less buckles.) My discussion of the dress that was fitted is not my definition of a T-tunic, but was meant to show an evolution of this simple patterning technique. > Would any handweaver amongst us care to comment on the >width that is convenient for throwing the shuttle? While I'm not a weaver myself, some of my friends have some older American looms which can weave fabric between 36 and 40" wide. Though the widest I've seen them weave is about 35". I'll delve into this a bit more. I have some values in cm for some 15th and 16th c Italian fabrics. I'll try to do some conversions in the next week to figure out the width comparisons. I'll see if I can get some "off-line" input from some friends not on the list currently, but who also have done a lot of medieval weaving/fabric industry research. >Vote for wool! and linen! A resounding YES! :-) >My husband >too usually has the back points unlaced, which is often seen, tho not >universally. I wonder if men helped each other in lacing up? One certainly wonders. My husband has found it pretty difficult to remove the outer weaponry, belts, rocks, capes, etc. to get down to the underdoublet. Where do you put it all when waiting for a porta-john or men's room? They rarely have an "accessories and overgarments" table set aside... >The side closing decorative top part >(again boned to be smooth) is attached at a side seam and then pinned on >the other side (I cheated and used hooks and eyes). You may not be far off in using hooks and eyes, given that Anne of Cleves would have brought the concept of hook and eyeing gowns from the Netherlands. The "Cranach" bodices of that era and earlier use hooks and eyes to achieve the wide open front bodice (which she is shown wearing in her Holbein portrait). Usually the sides of the bodice are attached by hooks and eyes to the heavily embroidered fancy placket across the breast. We've found that a hidden lacing rings or strip under the edge of the bodice works really well for the lacings which start below that decorated placket and go to the waist. (The wide single zig-zag lacing you see on the German "lace across the front" Cranach bodices). While so different from the English styles, I can see a few common evolutionary fashion and technique concepts between the English and German of the same era. I can easily imagine either what Caroline describes. I can also hypothesize a hidden lacing strip under that side front lacing the inner lining together, with the outer fabric overlapped and pinned. >German(?) woodcuts from the 1500s or 1520s showing bathhouses which, as far >as I remember, show them uncovered but the hair dressed normally (pinned >up) or wearing turban things. Has anyone any evidence about this, or is it >something that comes from what they wore when doing penance? German "bathhouse" workers and attendees (both men and women) usually wore a woven basket hat. Usually a pillbox shape, sometimes wider on the top, but sometimes even fitted on the head. I have _no_ clue about the history or reasons as to why this hat in particular. But it is called "badehut" -- bath hat... Julie Adams ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Oct 1996 22:35:20 -0700 From: Julie Adams Subject: Re: Orvus >Is Orvus pure sodium laurel sulphate? (should tell you on the >label) >Is it a dry chemical or a paste as one of the names suggests? >How much do you dilute it for washing things like silk, raw wool >both in the fleece and spun, and horses before shows :-)? >How much does it cost in the USA for what quantities? > >Annette Wilson I'll try to pick some up on my next run to a feed store to check. I really can't remember the cost, but I know they are jacking up the price for heirloom sewers and selling it in little bottles for a huge markup. I used to buy a about a gallon bucket of it for about $10. But that was a few years ago. I wouldn't expect it to be more than about $25 a gallon nowadays though. I used to use it on my horses all the time. It was a soft creamy soap. Thicker than normal shampoos. I would just scoop it out with my fingers about like a shampoo. Not diluted, but put on directly and lathered up (for washing horses...) Julie Adams ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Oct 1996 17:53:28 +1000 From: "P. M. Ostwald" Subject: Re: Tudor undersleeves Lisa asked: > > The only back view I've been able to find of this style of gown is >the 1540 sketch by Holbein and the lappet of the headdress covers the >sleeve-shoulder area :\ The part of the sketch that I can see indicates >that something does go up the back, but where does it go _to_? Would it >taper off to a point and end somewhere at the back of the shoulder? >Almost looks like the bodice back and sleeve are one piece although I'm >sure it can't be. The French Valois Tapestries book, that I mentioned recently, has several back views of costumes. These gowns are 1560+ and French, but have a similar shape (as viewed from the front) to the later Tudor gowns. They similarly have no shoulder straps. The back of the gown comes straight or with slight upwards curvature, across at mid upper back (above shoulder blades) and joins straight on to the sleeves.(you can see the seams between sleeves and bodice clearly) Tricia ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Patricia Ostwald Newcastle Mater Hospital Medical Physicist Locked Bag 7 Radiation Oncology Department Newcastle Region Mail Centre 2310, NSW, Australia ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Oct 1996 18:01:48 +1000 From: "P. M. Ostwald" Subject: Re: Tricia--Hennin questions Diana writes: >The black velvet loop at the front of hennins is thought by some to hide >a stiff wire, which is worn pressed flat against the forehead and helps >anchor the hennin so it ddoes not slip backwards off the head. This does work. I made mine as a black velvet around wire, and it was useful for resettling the hennin. >Also, at the time hennins were being worn, it was the height of fashion >for women to pluck or shave the hairline at the forehead and the nape of >the neck so these headdresses could be worn without hair showing. Brows >also seem non-existent during this period, so plucking and shaving must >have been quite extensive. > >I think if I were wearing a hennin, I'd have to draw the line at shaving >my forehead! (Not-Quite-an-Authentinazi!) That's why I used a Flemish hennin, with the black velvet hoodlike bit at the front. It looked quite good, and no hair shaving required. So I guess it comes down to having lots of hair, well braided and attatched firmly in place, to pin the hennin to. (much like Margo suggested) It must have been an odd look, when seen without the hennin - front top and outer edges of hairline shaved, as well as eyebrows, but long hair at back of head (sort of Centauri:-) - with apologies for the non-historical costume reference!) Tricia ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Patricia Ostwald Newcastle Mater Hospital Medical Physicist Locked Bag 7 Radiation Oncology Department Newcastle Region Mail Centre 2310, NSW, Australia ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Oct 1996 18:33:04 +1000 From: "P. M. Ostwald" Subject: Re: 16th C. costumes Lisa wrote: > I haven't tried this yet--in fact, I'm working on it now--but I >read somewhere (the Rialto archives?) that that method works very nicely >if you bone the stomacher well and place the pins perpendicular rather >than parallel to the stomacher edge. I think it was also mentioned that >it stayed on securely even with lots of movement. > Tried to track the file down but their server seems to be down. I >think it was under clothing-->fastenings. Thanks, I tracked it down. Address is: http://www.pbm.com/~lindahl/rialto/fasteners-msg.html for anyone else interested (1/2 way down page after discussion on buttons) I'll try this on my next Tudur. Tricia ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Patricia Ostwald Newcastle Mater Hospital Medical Physicist Locked Bag 7 Radiation Oncology Department Newcastle Region Mail Centre 2310, NSW, Australia ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 17 Oct 1996 09:59:00 BST From: Mrs C S Yeldham Subject: Tudor shoulders Well, I checked my pictures of the 1540s, of Mary and Elizabeth and any others I could find (mainly the Dynasties exhibition book). Not Jane Seymour as I can't find my copy of Ashelford (lamentations through the house!). I can't see *anything* under the jewellery which runs around the neck edge of these gowns - the jewellery looks pretty solid to me, certainly on the young Elizabeth there are lots of pearls! It makes sense to me that the jewels are mounted on the very narrow shoulder straps. I know several people have said these gowns don't have these straps and what we see are the sleeve heads, but I still don't see how the shoulders would stay up! Sorry, Julie, haven't had a chance yet to look for T-tunics - been too busy in the garden! Caroline ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Oct 1996 19:22:38 +0400 From: "Michael A. Sniggin" SFrom ???@??? Mon Oct 21 10:59:31 1996 Received: from brownvm.brown.edu by mail.math.TU-Berlin.DE with SMTP id AA19517 (5.67b8/IDA-1.5 for ); Mon, 21 Oct 1996 05:05:24 +0100 Message-Id: <199610210405.AA19517@mail.math.TU-Berlin.DE> Received: from BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU by BROWNVM.brown.edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with BSMTP id 2770; Mon, 21 Oct 96 00:00:39 EDT Received: from BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU (NJE origin LISTSERV@BROWNVM) by BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 4339; Mon, 21 Oct 1996 00:00:38 -0400 Date: Mon, 21 Oct 1996 00:00:34 -0400 Reply-To: Historic Costume List Sender: Historic Costume List From: Automatic digest processor Subject: H-COSTUME Digest - 19 Oct 1996 to 20 Oct 1996 To: Recipients of H-COSTUME digests There are 25 messages totalling 727 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. Moll Flanders costumes (3) 2. Janet Arnold's and picot edging (2) 3. Thtr/Film Pedagogy, History, Historiograpy Conference cfp 4. Empire gowns (6) 5. Thanks for Lace Wimple help 6. Tudor Sleeves (2) 7. Underpinnings 8. wool cleaning/washing (3) 9. Orvus 10. Three Wise Men 11. corsetry 12. wedding rings 13. wool washing (2) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 20 Oct 1996 01:18:27 -0500 From: LACONSTANCE@DELPHI.COM Subject: Moll Flanders costumes > Return-path: > Received: from listserv.brown.edu ("port 3585"@listserv.brown.edu) > by delphi.com (PMDF V5.0-7 #10880) id <01IAUBGD1NW09199A6@delphi.com> for > LACONSTANCE@delphi.com; Sat, 19 Oct 1996 21:35:23 -0400 (EDT) > Received: from stanley.cis.Brown.EDU (stanley.cis.brown.edu [128.148.128.155]) > by listserv.brown.edu (8.6.10/8.6.10) with SMTP id VAA26816; Sat, > 19 Oct 1996 21:17:16 -0400 > Received: from BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU by BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU (LISTSERV release 1.8b) > with NJE id 3840 for H-COSTUME@BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU; Sat, > 19 Oct 1996 21:11:19 -0400 > Received: from BROWNVM (NJE origin SMTP@BROWNVM) > by BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) > with BSMTP id 7304 for ; Sat, 19 Oct 1996 21:11:19 -0400 > Received: from emout05.mail.aol.com by BROWNVM.brown.edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) > with TCP; Sat, 19 Oct 1996 21:11:18 -0400 (EDT) > Received: by emout05.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) > id VAA13909 for H-COSTUME@brownvm.brown.edu; Sat, 19 Oct 1996 21:15:55 -0400 Dear Gail, > Those costumes WERE gorgeous, weren't they? I am not sure of the exact dates > in years (the story covered more than a decade) I was very interested in both the costumes and the set design. I figure the story could not have covered a period of more than 20 years (from Moll as a teenager to the end of the story), but my gut reaction was that there was a costume time span of more than 50 years. But this is just a first reaction -- haven't actually checked my references... Constance La Lena laconstance@delphi.com ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 19 Oct 1996 22:35:19 PDT From: Venus Envy Subject: Janet Arnold's and picot edging Ok - I'm looking at Janet Arnold's 1920's dresses and I keep seeing the phrase "such and such piece is picot edged" I've asked around, and looked in my books, and I can't seem to figure out exactly what that means... can anyone help me out here? thanks ! -heather meadows ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 20 Oct 1996 03:21:43 -0400 From: Kathy Chung Subject: Thtr/Film Pedagogy, History, Historiograpy Conference cfp *** CALL FOR SUBMISSIONS *** ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ F.O.O.T. 1997 -- FESTIVAL OF ORIGINAL THEATRE & FILM ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ "FOR THE RECORD": PEDAGOGY, HISTORY, HISTORIOGRAPHY 5-9 March 1997 Graduate Centre for Study of Drama, University of Toronto The Festival of Original Theatre, F.O.O.T., is a student administered conference/arts festival sponsored by the Graduate Centre for Study of Drama, University of Toronto, which unites academia and the arts in a spirit of cross-disciplinary exploration. F.O.O.T. combines conference papers, panel discussions, workshops, play readings, story telling, and original stage performances and films. This year, F.O.O.T. will explore theatre, film, and performance historiography and pedagogy: what we as scholars study and how this information is disseminated in the classroom, particularly as it applies to the discipline of performance history/historiography. We invite proposals for academic papers and original performances which complement the exploration of our theme. Productions should be no more than 1 hour in duration and will be provided with dramaturgical assistance. Priority will be given to original works. Papers should explore the methodology, theory, and terminology used in the study of the performing arts a nd must be no more than 20 minutes in duration. Proposed topics may include but are not limited to: * Historicising Theory and Theorising Historiography * Biography and Autobiography in the Performing Arts * Period Performance Reconstruction * The Use and Abuse of Performance History * Theatre and Living Museums * The State of Performance Studies in Canada * Historical Evidence: definition, documentation, access, and interpretation * Performance Archives, Museums, and Collection * Constructing Curricula and Canons * Theatre and Film as Teaching Tools * Vocabularies, Languages, and Rhetorical Strategies Proposals should include your name, address, title of submission, and a 500 word abstract or performance synopsis. DEADLINES FOR PROPOSALS: Original works 18 November 1996 Papers 9 December 1996 We will be celebrating F.O.O.T.'s fifth anniversary. We hope you will join us! --- Artistic Directors: Kathy Chung, Jessica Gardiner, Kirsty Johnston ** Please direct your submissions or inquiries to: Artistic Directors, F.O.O.T. 1997 Graduate Centre for Study of Drama University of Toronto 214 College St, 3rd Fl. Tel: (416) 978-7986 Toronto, Ontario Fax: (416) 971-1378 Canada M5T 2Z9 Email: graduate.drama@utoronto.ca ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 20 Oct 1996 09:42:17 -0400 From: Kelly A Rinne Subject: Re: Empire gowns If you don't have a copy, get Norah Waughs' "Corsets and Crinolines" It not only has scale patterns and instructions, but a very concise history of the development of the corset, using extant garments and patterns from the period. Kel On Sat, 19 Oct 1996, Leann W. Thompson wrote: > On Fri, 18 Oct 1996 15:21:06 -0700 CBecht@LMUMAIL.LMU.EDU writes: > > Another explanation for the variance in bodice height/waistline > >is the > > variance in individual forms; the bustiness or non-bustiness of > >women. > > Also, corsets were worn by most and the bust pushed up... so I'm > >assuming > > the high-busted bodice looks better worn with a Regency corset. > >I'm > > working on one now, so I'll know soon enough. Has anyone else > >made the > > Mantua-Maker Regency-era corset? > > Since I am involved in ACW re-enacting, I have no knowlege of corsets for > other time periods, but I am rather interested in knowing what the > corsets for the early 1800's were like. It seems to me that the Empire > style gowns look incredibly comfortable, yet in the movie "Pride and > Prejudice" the actresses seem to move just as stiffly as I do when I wear > my 1860's corset. Were the corsets of the early 1800's as long as the > 1860's (that is, they come just over the hips) or were they short? (And > yes, I do know that just because something is shown in a certain manner > in a movie doesn't mean that it was actually used that way in real life!) > > Thanks bunches, > Leann > > lwthomp@juno.com **** lwthomp@iserv.net > Visit the Little Grey proDUCKtions homepage > ******** http://www.iserv.net/~lwthomp ********* > >>>>>>>>>Practical HTML solutions<<<<<<<<<< > ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 20 Oct 1996 09:46:19 -0400 From: Kelly A Rinne Subject: Re: Janet Arnold's and picot edging Picot edging is still found on lace. It usually looks like scallops and points. The edging in JA is probably a way of "serging" the edges using an early zig-zag machine. I have an extant 1927 tea gown whose cut edges are finished this way, its gorgeous! Kel On Sat, 19 Oct 1996, Venus Envy wrote: > Ok - I'm looking at Janet Arnold's 1920's dresses > and I keep seeing the phrase "such and such piece is > picot edged" I've asked around, and looked in my books, > and I can't seem to figure out exactly what that means... > can anyone help me out here? > > thanks ! > > -heather meadows > ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 20 Oct 1996 10:03:19 -0400 From: Ann McGrath Subject: Thanks for Lace Wimple help Note: This is a resend; I received a msg that the mail was undeliverable because the mailbox is full. Ann McGrath wrote: My thanks for answering Bridgette's question. Thought you all might want to hear what she decided about crocheting a lace wimple. > Bridgette Redman wrote: > > Ann, > Thank you again for your kindness in forwarding this to your costume > list. They truly have responded in a quick and wonderful fashion. > Although the answers were not what I expected, they were certainly what > I needed. The two responses that you have sent me have convinced me > that I'm going off in the wrong direction. I sure am glad the show is > six months away!! It was a nice idea, and I might try it for myself > sometime, but I'm going to turn to a different tack for the show. If > lace wasn't used at all during the 11th century, then I'll stay away > from it. > > Thank you again! > Bridgette -- Ann A. McGrath email: mcgrath@enter.net Jewelry Design voice: (610)253-7588 Easton, PA 18042 A bead! A bead! My kingdom for a bead! ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 20 Oct 1996 10:56:13 -0400 From: Susan Carroll-Clark Subject: Moll Flanders costumes Greetings! I would not call post-Civil War costumes "Cavalier", although the Protectorate signals a transition period in style. Most of Moll Flanders takes place during the period known as the Restoration, which is probably the best name for this style. Cheers-- Susan Carroll-Clark sclark@chass.utoronto.ca ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 20 Oct 1996 08:22:15 -0700 From: Natascha Storms Subject: Re: Moll Flanders costumes She was about 62 when the story finally ended. -NS @@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@ @ "What if you rub-up against it? @ @ I'm always rubbing-up against things" @ @ -Cristi Jenkins @ @@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 20 Oct 1995 12:58:41 -0400 From: Sharon and/or Mikie Subject: Re: Empire gowns >Date: Sun, 20 Oct 1996 00:20:45 -0300 >Reply-To: Margaret Rae Carignan >Sender: Historic Costume List >From: Margaret Rae Carignan >Subject: Re: Empire gowns >To: Multiple recipients of list H-COSTUME > > >In Evelyn Waugh's "Corsets and Crinolines" (great book - anyone interested >in historical undies should see it), there is a sketch of an early 19th >century corset. These were quite long, being gored over the hips, and also >had gores to help bring the breasts RIGHT OUT. I suspect that the >silhouettes in "Pride and Prejudice" are pretty reasonable. Apparently >these corsets (still called stays) were only boned lightly, and not always >at all. > Hello! This brought up a question. That book is out of print!! :( I am taking a Corsetry class next year, and have been told that Corsets and Crinolines is the only book to bother looking at. If anyone has a copy that they'd sell, write and let me know!!!! Thanks a lot! Sharon ***************************** * * * DON'T MESS WITH TECHIES - * * * * THEY ALL CARRY KNIVES * * * ***************************** ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 20 Oct 1996 10:21:56 -0700 From: Karen & Jackie Subject: Tudor Sleeves In "Elizabeths Wardrobe Unlock'd" there is information of how the sleeves were given a puff at the top by using short peices of baleen, the same as was used to make the standing wired veils of Elizabeths time. I'm afraid I can't look it up because we're moving and all the GOOD books are packed. Karen ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 20 Oct 1996 11:51:12 -0700 From: Gjuka Subject: Underpinnings In the past week, I have heard two references to the "fact" that the ancient Greeks invented the bra. ??? Comments? Norma gjuka@cnw.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Oct 1996 14:01:55 PDT From: "Marlo W. Peck" Subject: Re: wool cleaning/washing Most pure wool is not washable! If you have a poly/wool blend than maybe= . Try cutting off a 2" square and zigzaging or surging the edges and was= h on delicate with cold water and dry flat. If the piece doesn't shrink= bad or felt your safe. Otherwise plan on a drycleaning bill. With a = cloak you should not have to worry about cleaning very often. Scotchgard= the hem, alway hang the cloak up to air after events and brush off dirt = and soil before storing. > > I just bought 6 yds of real(!) wool to make a cape for the SCA. Normall= y I > prewash all fabrics but I'm not sure how to with the wool. I wash cotto= n on > hot and dry on hot to shrink it. Should I wash the wool or plan on > drycleaning it? > > Misty > Morigianna@aol.com Marlo W. Peck Knowne to the Society as Muriel deRedfearne ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 20 Oct 1996 15:13:00 CDT From: Mickie Erickson Subject: Orvus For those who were looking for Orvus Info- I'm clearing out my archives, and ran across this: >Date: Wed, 04 Sep 1996 10:28:18 -0400 >From: Dale Loberger >To: h-costume@andrew.cmu.edu >Subject: Orvus Paste for cleaning >Orvus is available from Clotilde~s, 2 Sew Smart Way, B8031, Stevens >Point, WI 54481-8031 in an 8 oz. plastic jar for $4.00 plus sh/hdg. I >have used it for washing old quilts in my son~s swimming pool and it >works well for that. It is advertised in her catalog as "a SAFE washing >concentrate for silk fabrics, treasured needlework, and quilts alike. > Contains no harmful phosphates. Biodegradable. Highly concentrated. >Color and consistency may change from winter to summer." Their > toll-free order line is 1-800-545-4002. > I would like to know if anyone has ever used it for antique clothing and > had success in removing rust stains. > Susannah Eanes, Mantua Maker and Fine Tailoring > (Susan Bridges Loberger, for Susannah~s Heirloom, Ltd.) > "We are only the trustees for those that come after us." -William > Morris Hope this helps! Tom Erickson ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 20 Oct 1996 15:31:00 CDT From: Mickie Erickson Subject: Three Wise Men I may be rather late with this, but in the first couple of chapters of "Ben Hur" (by Lew Wallace), the author gives a reasonably detailled description of the clothing (as he saw it) of the three wise men. Otherwise, You may wish to follow the "traditional" style of Middle Eastern garments, using lush fabrics & varying the headdresses for the different Wise Men & their attendants. Tom Erickson ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 20 Oct 1996 15:36:00 CDT From: Mickie Erickson Subject: corsetry Per: >Since I am involved in ACW re-enacting, I have no knowlege of corsets for >other time periods, but I am rather interested in knowing what the >corsets for the early 1800's were like. It seems to me that the Empire >style gowns look incredibly comfortable, yet in the movie "Pride and >Prejudice" the actresses seem to move just as stiffly as I do when I wear >my 1860's corset. Were the corsets of the early 1800's as long as the >1860's (that is, they come just over the hips) or were they short? (And >yes, I do know that just because something is shown in a certain manner >in a movie doesn't mean that it was actually used that way in real life!) >Thanks bunches, >Leann The actresses may have been moving in a stiff manner to reflect their proper upbringing & fine carriage as young women of quality (if not wealth). Tom Erickson ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 20 Oct 1996 15:31:49 -0700 From: Trudy Subject: wedding rings i happened to find a book yesterday which discuessed (only a little) wedding rings and on which finger they were worn...i just wrote down some notes, so i'm only paraphrsing here: during the period of george I in england, the wedding ring was usually worn on the thumb (although it was placed on the fourth -- i guess what we consider the ring -- finger during the ceremony). apparently very large wedding rings were fashionable which necessitated waering them on the thumb. in france from the 11th to the 15th centuries, they wre usually on the right hand, middle finger; s in some areas they were on the fourth finger. the guals and the britons of the 1st century wore the ring on the middle finger (didn't say which hand). the order of matrimony in england, pre-freformation said that men should wear their wedding ring on their right hand, women on the left. chirlandajo's frescoes in the curch of santa croce in florence show the betrothal of the ivrgin (make that virgin...no backspace c key here) mary -- the ring is placed by joseph on mary's fourth vinger, right hand. during the betrothal of lucrezia borgia with giv ARGH make that giovanni sforza on feb. 2, 1493, the wedding (engagement) ring was placed on her fourth finger, left hand. and finally, an idea that might explain the custom of wearing the wedding ring on the thumb -- the second digit of the thumb was dedicated to the virgin mary. this is all from "rings for the finger", by george frederick kunz, dover press, 1917 (repreinted i believe late 1940s). i found thi s book used at Green Apple Books on Clement St. in San Francisco (i didn't buy it so it's still there ) if any bay area people are interested. -Kendra Van Cleave ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 20 Oct 1996 18:13:54 -0400 From: MsSheep@AOL.COM Subject: Re: wool washing On washing of wool - I do so all the time. With that said let me note the following: Much of the wool I wash is handspun, or handwoven or handknitted. All of it is 100 % wool as I usually pick out the sheep I want sheared for my fleece stash. You cannot throw a wool article into the washer go a full cycle then put it into the dryer unless you want felt or at least heavily fulled yardage. Sometimes I do - note "boiled wool" which is great for warm and tough garments. Yardage off the loom is put into the washer to be finished.. a necessary step to finishing the cloth, esp since most times I cannot get 8 or 9 friends to "waulk the wool." Cautions with commercial wool would be the dyes used in it - they may not be wash fast. Take a square wet it well and rub on white cloth any color? Take the same square and soak it - any color bleeding out? The real challenge with wool is the drying since for the most part you are not going to use a dryer . I spin the water out in my washer then begin looking for the warmest out of the weather spot I can find. January washings are challenging. Dianne mssheep@aol.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 20 Oct 1996 18:23:26 EDT From: "Leann W. Thompson" Subject: Re: Empire gowns On Sun, 20 Oct 1996 00:20:45 -0300 (ADT) Margaret Rae Carignan writes: >In Evelyn Waugh's "Corsets and Crinolines" (great book - anyone >interested >in historical undies should see it), there is a sketch of an early >19th >century corset. I'll have to check and see if the library here has it, and if they don't I can probably get it through inter-library loan... >These were quite long, being gored over the hips, and >also >had gores to help bring the breasts RIGHT OUT. Hmmm... When I wear my 1840's corset (it is quite long, gored over the hips and also at the breasts) my chest seems to be pushed up as well... Could this be similar in style? I realize that in the early 19th century, there would not have been a spoon clasp in the front, like the repro that I have, but at least it does give me some idea of the style. The 1840's seems to have had a very cylindrical silhouette, with fullness at the top of the bust. Other details aside, I find that the darts in a *bodice* provide a clue as to when the bodice was worn, as the pre- ACW bodices seem to have more of a vertical darting tendancy, while the ones worn during the war have more of a diagonal tendancy. But back to the Empire style -- I assume that the *gathered* bodices were made of a fitted lining, with a gathered exterior, right? If so, would it be safe to assume that the lining was darted and boned, or was it only darted? If it was darted, were the darts more vertical, or were they more diagonal? (I am running on the assumtion that they were *not* darted in the manner of the 1950's with a horizontal dart coming from the arm pit... Oh the questions! > I suspect that the >silhouettes in "Pride and Prejudice" are pretty reasonable. Apparently >these corsets (still called stays) were only boned lightly, and not >always >at all. Somebody told me that there was a variation on the corset of this era which resembled a lightly boned sports bra. It seems as if this would be reasonable, but it still wouldn't give the "proper" carriage to the lady who was wearing it. It's too bad that Grand Rapids (where I live) wasn't built until after this era, or else there would be some examples in the museum collection for me to examine! My, how I do go on! Thanks, everyone for your continued input! lwthomp@juno.com **** lwthomp@iserv.net Visit the Little Grey proDUCKtions homepage ******** http://www.iserv.net/~lwthomp ********* >>>>>>>>>Practical HTML solutions<<<<<<<<<< ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 20 Oct 1996 19:11:29 -0400 From: Ed Safford & Carol Kocian Subject: Re: Empire gowns I'm working on a set of stays out of _Corsets And Crinolines_; it's the set at the end of the 18thC section of the book. (I'm doing 1797.) They lace in the back and also lace in front only halfway down to the waist. This looks like a bustline fullness adjustment. They don't have bust gores yet, but the seams are slightly curved and will give a rounded bustline. (As opposed to being flattened & pushed out at the top, as are the earlier 18thC stays.) >Somebody told me that there was a variation on the corset of this era >which resembled a lightly boned sports bra. The very brief stays are pictured in the Kyoto book, and that's the only example I've heard of them. It looks like the stays mostly transformed from flat to curved during the Empire era. This was done with the gussets for the bust & then later the hips. >But back to the Empire style -- I assume that the *gathered* bodices were >made of a fitted lining, with a gathered exterior, right? Not necessarily. Later 19thC gowns are cunstructed this way (1840's) but Empire gowns are not. They tended to get lighter & "unconstructed" in this era. -Carol *^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^* This account is shared by Carol Kocian and Ed Safford. Carol can also be e-mailed at ckocian@epe.org Ed can be reached at ecsaffor@ingr.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 20 Oct 1996 19:15:04 -0400 From: Mary Smith Subject: Re: Empire gowns All the discussion about waist placement and infantile sleeves begs the question - who's wearing this? I'm rather fond of these dresses, but I just turned 47 yesterday and will not appear somewhere as "mutton turned out as lamb". I refer the list to Emma Thompson's production of Sense & Sensibility. The young women are fashionably turned out. The older women (of a certain age), are conservatively dressed. Fashionable women of a certain age look silly. Mutton turned out as lamb. The point is, I am making a ruby silk Folkwear Empire dress. I like the slightly lower waist (I'm not huge in the bust, but they're better than bee bites), and the conservative sleeves. I am investing considerable dithering in finishing/decorative details. I'll wear this at Beethoven's Birthday Bash in Denver in December, where there will be every other kind of costume in the entire world, and I'll look just fine. NOW! If there exists a chemical not banned by the Geneva Convention that will keep my hair in curls for the entire evening . . . Regards, Mary Denise Smith ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 20 Oct 1996 20:25:41 -0300 From: Margaret Rae Carignan Subject: Re: Empire gowns Are you certain that Corsets and Crinolines is out of print? I purchased a copy at Dalhousie University that was ordered by them this fall; it cost me around $35.00 Canadian. The reprint date on it is 1995. It is currently being published by Routledge/Theatre Arts Books, 29 West 35th Steet, New York, New York, 10001. ISBN 0-87830-526-2. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 20 Oct 1996 18:39:17 -0500 From: "Sara J. Davitt" Subject: Re: wool washing > not going to use a dryer . I spin the water out in my washer then begin > looking for the warmest out of the weather spot I can find. January washings > are challenging. Dianne mssheep@aol.com > Some commercial laundro-mats have a machine specifically for the 'spinning' and spins it much faster than a home machine, and can get it almost dry!... very nice... ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 20 Oct 1996 20:12:49 -0400 From: Mary Smith Subject: Re: Tudor Sleeves Baleen support for sleeves is also mentioned in Patterns of Fashion 1550-1660, pp 111, 112. Hope this helps, Mary Denise ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 20 Oct 1996 20:12:58 -0400 From: Mary Smith Subject: Re: wool cleaning/washing I beg to differ with Muriel de Redfearne. Wool is washable. The controlling factor is: wool is washable with care. We have been over this road in the very recent past, so I will summarize Constance La Lena's very good advice: Fill the washer with warm (not hot) water. Add a small amount ofsoap/detergent. Slosh briefly to disperse in water. Stop machine. Put the wool into the machine, pushing it under the water, making sure it is thoroughly wet. Set the kitchen timer for 15 minutes or so. At the end of the appointed time, drain the washer and allow to go through the spin cycle. Hang to dry. AT NO TIME DOES THE WOOL AGITATE. Simple. YIS, Mary Denise Lady Marged ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 20 Oct 1996 19:11:48 -0700 From: Julie Adams Subject: Re: wool cleaning/washing >Most pure wool is not washable! Well it is, but it shrinks. Most 100% wool flannel will shrink a fair amount, but if you wash it 3 or 4 times in your hottest water and dry hot, it takes most of the shrink out of it. Many of the women in my German Renn. group do this regularly and then have a gown that they can then wash in COLD later. Of course this means all linings and trims must be pre-washed as well... >With a cloak you should not have to worry about cleaning very often. >Scotchgard the hem, alway hang the cloak up to air after events and brush off >dirt and soil before storing. This is true for any wool garment. If aired and dusted, they rarely require cleaning...except for cleaning off gunk from food fights and other rambunctious activities...:-) Julie Adams ------------------------------ End of H-COSTUME Digest - 19 Oct 1996 to 20 Oct 1996 **************************************************** From ???@??? Tue Oct 22 10:32:31 1996 Received: from brownvm.brown.edu by mail.math.TU-Berlin.DE with SMTP id AA08128 (5.67b8/IDA-1.5 for ); Tue, 22 Oct 1996 06:06:47 +0200 Message-Id: <199610220406.AA08128@mail.math.TU-Berlin.DE> Received: from BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU by BROWNVM.brown.edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with BSMTP id 5133; Tue, 22 Oct 96 00:01:59 EDT Received: from BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU (NJE origin LISTSERV@BROWNVM) by BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 0305; Tue, 22 Oct 1996 00:01:52 -0400 Date: Tue, 22 Oct 1996 00:01:12 -0400 Reply-To: Historic Costume List Sender: Historic Costume List From: Automatic digest processor Subject: H-COSTUME Digest - 20 Oct 1996 to 21 Oct 1996 To: Recipients of H-COSTUME digests There are 35 messages totalling 1260 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. hair does what? (2) 2. Belts and Buckles 3. civil war 4. Dress form for sale 5. Empire gowns 6. Men's footwear circa 1800-1810 (2) 7. Civil War 8. clothing of history on the Internet (fwd) 9. Finish on Period Eye Glass Case (fwd) 10. nalbinding--last call 11. Folkwear Patterns 12. Empire Gowns 13. Moll Flanders costumes 14. White Oak web site 15. Books in Print (4) 16. 1870's hair 17. Re[2]: Empire Gowns 18. Cloak Pins 19. Washing Wool, etc. (2) 20. Nutcracker tartan (2) 21. Chaps 22. How to Get Involved 23. 19th-century plaids 24. [Fwd: Re: Men's footwear circa 1800-1810] 25. Empire Gowns/corsets 26. French Hoods, Tudor Sleeves & bodice, Foam Dress Forms 27. M.Edge Civil War uniform 28. Belts ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 20 Oct 1996 21:34:06 -0700 From: don and carolyn richardson Subject: Re: hair does what? SyRilla@AOL.COM wrote: > I have made a basic 1870's bustle dress. I would say that it is more of a > morning visiting dress, or such. I need suggestions on what to do with my > hair. At the moment it is in long layers. About 2" below shoulders, cut in > the v-shape (mid back is longer that the sides). I thought of adding > extention, but I can't find a hair piece that matches my hair color. It is > red and blond, almost a strawberry. > I know that they curled or frizzed the bangs, and created a bustle like > effect in the back, but how? And if head wear was worn what kind? > You might check out the Dover book "Fashions from Harper's Bazar 1868-1897". I recall there is *one* page in the "Cuirass body" chapter about how hair was styled. I don't think your hair would work without an extension of some sort since they tended to plait and curl a good deal. I also have a book I got from Alteryears called "Hair, hat and bonnet" that is copies from Godey's from the 1860's - check it out, it wasn't expensive. As to headwear, they usually wore these real nifty hats. Lots of examples in Godey's and Harpers, but where you could get something like them I' don't know. I did check with Mary LaVenture at Enhancements about hat forms for 1870's but she doesn't make them (I asked her "pretty please" so maybe later if she gets lots of requests). You might also check with her about extensions since she carries wigs and may be able to get your color. Tetchubah ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Oct 1996 10:38:00 BST From: Mrs C S Yeldham Subject: Belts and Buckles Buckles I was at the Museum of London on Saturday, having a good look at their medieval section - lots of shoes, knives and belts, buckles, badges etc. I wasn't specifically looking for rollers, but I didn't see any. I'll have a look in the MofL Dress Accessories book. They had several buckles on display where the fabric of the belt fits into a flat extension on one side of the buckle and then a 'half' buckle on the other side the fabric would fit through, between an inch and half an inch wide (presumably to match the belt end, tho they didn't have any matching sets). A couple were very pretty, with the curve of the buckle folded back on itself as though you had taken a half circle and folded part of it back towards the tang (I hope this makes sense!) The one Sally Ann saw does seem to be unusualy - could it be horse furniture - especially if more solid than usual? Nutcracker Tartan 1880's, 1890's is, I think, after the peak of the Victorian tartan fashion, so you would be fine if it was English - but isn't the Nutcracker set somewhere in MittelEurope (Austria?). If it is, there are several books published on social history in Austria in that period (I've got books on architecture, Schiele and Kokoska (sp?) but they wouldn't help!) Waughs BTW the Waugh who wrote 'Corsets and Chrinolines' was Nora, not Evelyn (which could be interesting in a library!) - I suggest you avoid Auberon Waugh as well! Caroline ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Oct 1996 21:53:11 +0930 From: Martin Edge Subject: civil war I am making a senior officer's frock coat, with attendant shirt, waistcoat and trousers, and need information regarding the decoration on the coat. There also seems to be variation in the button placement, presumably due to which company the individual belonged to. I would appreciate any information people have, including the names of suitable reference works, although as I live in Australia I am not overly confident of being able to track them down. Most of the photo references I can find are front images (I wonder why??!!) and I would also like to know what the frock coats look like from the back - are there any pleats in the skirts, or is it a straight skirt, or is it again a matter of which regiment they belonged to as to how it was constructed? Cuffs appear to vary as well - one reference says Union soldiers wore no cuffs, but I have seen paintings where there are cuffs and collar are in a darker contrasting fabric. Any information is appreciated Thanks, Bean ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Oct 1996 09:53:40 -0400 From: Thea Goldsby Subject: Dress form for sale Elizabeth J. Poole described the Uniquely You dress form: >If you want to do both regular dressmaking, AND have a form you >can manipulate with corsetry, you need a Uniquely You. They run >for about US$160 at the JoAnne's chain, and go on sale for US$99 >or so three or four times a year. I bought a Uniquely You form at a going-out-of-business sale hoping it would be my size; it's not even close. I am willing to sell the form for $70 (US). This includes shipping within the continental US. The form is a size ML which the manufacturer says fits hip measurements 43"-45 1/2", waist 32"-38 1/2" and bust 39"-44 1/2". If necessary, extra foam could be added to pad out a certain area. There is no cover included with the form. I have seen them for around $30 or you could make one from scratch. Thea Goldsby TheaG@aol.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Oct 1996 09:51:15 -0500 From: Sheryl Nance-Durst Subject: Re: Empire gowns >>In Evelyn Waugh's "Corsets and Crinolines" (great book - anyone interested >>in historical undies should see it), there is a sketch of an early 19th >>century corset. >This brought up a question. That book is out of print!! :( Sharon, _Corsets and Crinolines_ IS in print. It is published by Routledge, Chapman & Hall, Inc. ISBN: 0878305262 It is currently only available in paperback in the US as far as I can tell. Any good bookstore should be able to order it for you. Price is listed as $18.95. My source: The current computerized version of Books in Print (which most large bookstores also use) HTH! Sheryl J. Nance-Durst ...one of the secret masters of Kansas City MO Public Library the world: a librarian. They p_sheryl@kcpl.lib.mo.us control information. Don't ever p**s one off. - Spider Robinson, _The Callahan Touch_ (Opinions expressed in this message do not reflect the viewpoint of the Kansas City MO Public Library.) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Oct 1996 09:03:38 -0600 From: Jeff Gottfred Subject: Men's footwear circa 1800-1810 My husband needs shoes to go with his new circa-1805 tailcoat. Unfortunately, my usually reliable source for this period (_Revolution_in_Fashion_)is no help at all--it shows most male mannequins wearing stocking feet! This leads me to two questions: 1. Can anyone recommend a good source for information on men's footwear during this period, or give me their impressions on what men wore on their feet? What about the question of boots versus shoes? 2. Once we decide what would be best, there is another hurdle: Jeff has size 14 feet (not size _13_, size _14_). So we're probably looking at custom-made shoes. Who would you folks suggest for this job? Thanks awfully, Angela Gottfred gottfred@agt.net ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Oct 1996 16:05:00 BST From: Mrs C S Yeldham Subject: Re: Civil War Bean said >I am making a senior officer's frock coat, with attendant shirt, waistcoat >and trousers, and need information regarding the decoration on the coat. >There also seems to be variation in the button placement, presumably due to etc Well, in the Civil War I know about *nobody* wore frock coats - they wore doublet and hose... >Cuffs appear to vary as well - one reference says Union soldiers wore no >cuffs, but I have seen paintings where there are cuffs and collar are in >a darker contrasting fabric. So I deduce he means the American Civil War (or War Between the States) >Any information is appreciated Unless we know what you are talking about, this is difficult. Bean has sparked this question, but he is not the only person who does this (I'm sorry to pick on him, I've just reached critical mass!). I didn't know which War he was talking about until the last paragraph - if he'd been more specific I'd have stopped reading at the first para - I don't know anything about the ACW. PLease, Please, please - if you want information, be as specific as possible about what you are asking for. Period (as close as possible), social class, geographical area (you are from and the clothes you are interested in), and the 'authenticity' or otherwise of the group you are in, all help us know how much and what kind of information you require. Some of the people on this list can date clothes to a 5 year period, worn by young women of the upper middle class living in a particular geographical area - asking for a 100 or 200 year stretch in Western Europe will not elicit any information - its too broad! Caroline ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Oct 1996 11:26:21 -0400 From: Gretchen M Beck Subject: clothing of history on the Internet (fwd) ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Tue, 15 Oct 1996 11:45:32 -0600 From: Tim & Margo McKenna To: "'h-costume-request@andrew.cmu.edu'" Subject: clothing of history on the Internet Is there such a thing on the Internet that will show what people dressed liked in certain years? Is there also a place one would order patterns or clothes from? ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Oct 1996 11:27:07 -0400 From: Gretchen M Beck Subject: Finish on Period Eye Glass Case (fwd) ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Thu, 17 Oct 96 11:58:00 EDT From: "PRYOR, KATHLEEN A." To: "'h-costume-request@andrew.cmu.edu'" Subject: Finish on Period Eye Glass Case I have an oval metal eyeglass case with a flip top for period glasses (circa 1740-1790). At the present, the metal is a bit tarnished. Does anyone on the list know the correct type of finish for this case? Was it bright metal, Japanned, painted, etc. Thanks! Kathy Pryor pryor1@amgdal.hcc.com (that's the number one after pryor!) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Oct 1996 11:43:00 -0400 From: Tess Parrish Subject: nalbinding--last call Today I sent packets to the following: Oct 21-- Gunnora Hallakarva Vandy Simpson Julie Malin Ann A. McGrath Natascha Storms Stephanie Ray-Solum Carol Desrochers Richard Harper Cathy Harding This gives a grand total of 32 copies sent. All my $4 packets are used up and I will have to get more printed if there is a demand. However, I am leaving for several weeks on Thursday, so will be unsubscribing then, and will have to hear from you by Tuesday night or Wednesday morning at the latest if you want a copy. Be sure to send your snail mail address. I never thought there would be such a demand! Tess ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Oct 1996 11:52:43 -0400 From: EGerds@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Folkwear Patterns In a message dated 96-10-16 20:53:15 EDT, jhenry@ASTRON.BERKELEY.EDU (janet henry) writes: << Before we get another rumor going - Folkwear is not going out of business, but being sold. Taunton Press has decided not to support this product any more and is preparing to sell that division. Janet >> That is the official word, but since they made the statement about selling the division over a year and a half ago, and they have yet to get out a perspectus to interested parties (like AlterYears) I don't think they really want to sell it. If they are interested in selling it, they are going about it in a strange way, depleating the inventory and thereby decreasing the value of the division, plus no advertising to keep the name in the public eye --- I could go on but I'm just making myself more frustrated by the situation. Liz Gerds ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Oct 1996 09:04:51 -0700 From: Joan Broneske Subject: Re: hair does what? >From what I have seen in pictures and fashion plates, they did wear the = curled bangs and the back of the hair was worn in a coiled braid or bun = at about the upper back of the head. Then sometimes, probably mostly = for evening wear, there were a couple of ringlet type curls which hung = down the back out of the bun or coil. Since your hair is layered, you may want to curl the layers and then pin = them up in your bun. It may help it to stay up. As for hats -- small hats, perched on the head. I have a small, straw, = craft hat which I have decorated with lace and feathers and ribbons and = it looks great. I believe also that pillbox/porkpie type hats were = appropriate and small, narrow brimmed bonnets. I suggest you find some fashion plates or actual photos from the period = to check out the hats and hair styles. Check Godey's or Peterson's = magazines. I have a book (can't remember the name of it right now) that = has a lot of fashion plates from the bustle era and also shows some good = close up sketches of hair styles. Joan Broneske ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Oct 1996 10:38:02 -0400 From: Dale Loberger Subject: Re: Empire Gowns ____Finally! **My** era!____ The thing I think people hate most about Empire gowns is that they are "too" low in the neckline (they can be as low as the bust point and still be quite correct, depending upon how fashionable your character is) and that they are "too" tight in the armscye/sleeve area. Add that to the lack of waistline definition and we modern folks get real confused as to how in the world this was ever seen as a flattering, liberating, much less provocative, style. You have to think like they did and remember what they were used to seeing, or not seeing, just before this style came into being. I ll elaborate on this in a minute. First of all, re: the Folkwear pattern. It is fine, it s just often seen made out of cheap poly-cotton cloth and badly fitted, and that makes it look like some Kindergarten dress. The sleeves are set correctly, the seaming is correct, the bodice gathering centers in the front and back as many did. It is a good basic pattern, and very simple. It looks better with a corset, and looks horrible with a bra. This is entirely due to the silhouette of the period, which is perfectly easily re-created using this dress. By the way, there are more of these becoming available Rocking Horse Farm, Period Impressions, etc. all have new 1812 /Jane Austen dresses. Watch for my own line coming Very Soon I Promise it will be available nationally under the name "Thistles and Roses Patterns for Living History." Some of them are available now, but only through me. I have farm/work dresses, as well as daygowns, a wrapper, and aprons. Anyway, with any period dress you all know how important the right underwear can be. This is the only period I know of where there was often actually padding to *increase* the waist size, and that is a little known fact. But it s crucial if you re going to capture the look, unless your waist really is thick in relation to your bustline and your hips. (I have been so impressed with the BBC version of Pride and Prejudice because the costuming has been so meticulously built for each character s body type to give a perfect period silhouette. Watch it and you will see exactly what I am going to describe here.) First of all, I am going to assume Carol is looking to recreate an American or British 1812 look. A lot of what I am going to say here has absolutely nothing to do with the French of the period they went totally off in a different direction and a lot of what the American and English women did was in direct rejection of the French look of this period. OK, first of all, understand that the whole Empire line was scandalous to most eyeballs when it first appeared. Many women refused to wear it until well into the nineteenth century. Why, you ask? Well, what was different about it? What did it reveal that hadn t been seen since I don t know, help me out, you SCA folks the fourteen hundreds or something before the invention of the farthingale? HIPS!!!! All of a sudden you could actually see a woman s hips and legs moving under her gown when she gasp walked!! (Now, think of that scene when Caroline Bingley is trying to get Darcy to notice her, and she keeps walking back and forth across the room. She finally gets Elizabeth to "come take a turn about the room with me. It s so refreshing!" Still Darcy refuses to look up as she passes. Finally, she says, "won t you join us, Mr. Darcy?" And he says, "That would defeat the object." "Whatever can you mean? We insist on knowing your meaning, sir!" And Darcy says, "Why, that your figures appear to best advantage when walking, and I might best admire them from my present position." Caroline: "Shocking! Abominable reply! Eliza, how can we punish him?") Generally, the more conservative a woman was, the more respectable she wished to appear, the more padding she wore under the Empire gown to disguise the real shape of her figure, and make it nearly impossible to guess, it would seem, where her hips actually were located under that columnar gown. Now, does it start to make sense? Also, many more conservative woman actually wore more of a combination empire/round gown with fuller, gathered skirts instead of the flat-fronted, back-gathered silhouette popular among the younger and more fashionable. (like the older housekeepers and maids in the BBC Pride & Prejudice production). The proper resting place for the waistline of the gown was somewhere between the point of the bust and the chest wall -- ___not___ on the chest wall itself, as we might think from a first glance at the silhouette. This caused the front of the gown to ride away from the stomach, and just skim the outer hips at the sides. The bum roll, worn for dress-up and again by respectable women more often with day gowns, disguised from the back just where the buttocks were, by causing the dress to just skim over it to the floor. It also pushed the dress away from the figure to extend gracefully behind, very often in a train. And so, completely hiding the shape of the womanly figure to all but the imaginative male eye. Still, the way a woman moved made it possible for more to be revealed about all this feminine mystery than had been in anyones memory, due to the absence of abundant gathered skirts and many petticoats. Often only one narrow one was worn, with the chemise. Now, for the foundation or corset contrary to popular belief, women did not just "throw away" their corsets during this period. Again, I m not talking about the French here. English and American women often continued to wear their eighteenth century corsets under these high-waisted gowns, resulting in "pleasing mounds of flesh" riding high up and out of the low necklines of these dresses, (as they did in the 18th c. face it, they were used to seeing lots of bosom) and a flat fronted torso directly below. Later, toward the end of the first decade, a straight, long-lined corset appeared, and *it* was often padded in front in a large diamond shape, to fill in a woman s naturally concave area (at least before childbirth) below the bustline and make it appear more conical or columnar. These corsets laced up the back and had busks on either side of the lacing, and could have a busk up the front, too, but a girl with good posture could forego that. These corsets were often said to have been laced very tightly, from the bottom of the bust to below the hips, in order that the whole body be forced into a straight, columnar shape. The waist was not necessarily constricted, for to do so would disturb that columnar ideal. So, if you re going to attempt to duplicate the 1812 line, you have to re-think your body. Realize the emphasis and focal point was the upper chest and neckline area. Everything else is meant to draw the eye upward and away from those scandalously obvious legs and hips. Decide whether you re going to be more comfortable with either pretty collars and chemisettes to fill in the low neckline or the WonderBra look. (Don t try wearing one of these, though. Bras don t work here they are much too obvious and difficult to hide, besides the fact that they don t give the right silhouette to build on.) Try it with your 18th c. corset first, remembering that the waistline of the dress does not go down below the bust against the chest wall but just above it. If you aren t satisfied with this look, you can try the 1830 corded stays Saundra Altman has at Past Patterns but you almost have to wear it with the busk in order to avoid drooping if you have any chest at all. Fit the waistline wearing the corset or stays you plan to wear. Try things like the bum roll or chest padding if the dress doesn t seem to duplicate the incredibly smooth, columnar shape. Absolutely NO bumps or bulges allowed they all must be disguised/flattened/hidden /skimmed over. If you like trying graphed patterns, there are some stays for this period in the Norah Waugh _Corsets & Crinolines_ book. Unfortunately, there are none that I know of with the diamond shaped inset in the front, but there are pictures. Maybe you can experiment. I just read Loren Dearborn s message do you have a pattern for the regency corset you mention? Would you share???J As to the fact that your movement is restricted even more so than you may be used to in other eras the arms are still pulled back, the chest is held up and out, the sleeves are small and tight and often don t allow you to reach your arms up to do your hair comfortably. If you have to be in something that doesn t restrict movement (such as to be able to operate a shuttle at a loom, for instance), make a fuller sleeve and add a little at the upper side seam at the armhole. Many different sleeves are available, however, besides the short, tight puffed look the marmaluke sleeve, with the series of puffs down the arm, the long, fitted sleeve that flares at the wrist, often with a separate little buckled band made of self-fabric worn over it, the elbow length tapered sleeve, with a little fullness in the upper arm, and fitted at the elbow. As to the movement of the waistline seam, it first began rising in the late 1780 s (in France, natch) and by 1790 was definitely on the way up towards the bustline. By 1800, of course, the most fashionable were wearing it way up there, with the lowest of low necklines. It stayed up pretty high until skirts started getting fuller again toward the end of the teens. Toward the end of the 20 s it was down to between 2 & 3 inches above the normal waistline, and skirts were relatively full. I think that s about enough from me on this! But if anyone wants to know more, feel free to e-mail me privately. Susannah Eanes, Mantua Maker and Fine Tailoring (Susan Bridges Loberger for Susannah s Heirloom, Ltd.) "We are only the trustees for those that come after us." --William Morris ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Oct 1996 10:02:30 PST From: Loren Dearborn Subject: Re: Men's footwear circa 1800-1810 My husband needs shoes to go with his new circa-1805 tailcoat. Amazon Dry Goods has a custom shoe catalog with shoes from this (and many other) periods. I'm actually looking for men's regency shoes too, personally I think the boots are much better looking than the shoes for men, and seem to remember that the boots in this catalog were about $450. Amazon's order # is 1 800 798-7979. Consultation phone # is 1 319 322-4138. However if anyone else knows of a source for men's boots that look regency-ish that might be cheaper (they don't have to be custom) I'd love to hear about it. Cheers, Loren Dearborn ldearborn@calacademy.org ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Oct 1996 12:32:17 -0400 From: Marsha Hamilton Subject: Re: Moll Flanders costumes IMHO the Moll Flanders costumes were pretty good. The problem was Moll herself not aging as she should have. In the mayor's household (she's about 18), the clothing looks about 1660-ish. He is conservative and they are wearing mostly plain cloths perhaps of older fashion. At the end, she is supposed to be 61 (she still looks 30), that would put the date around 43 years later, or 1703. I think the styles at the end looked a bit later than that, perhaps 1720s? It was a nice transition from the Protectorate to Restoration to early 18th century styles. I thought they did a nice job with fabrics, color choices, trims, cut of garments, corseting, etc. but agree that styles were changing faster than the actors were aging. Marsha > >She was about 62 when the story finally ended. >-NS ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Oct 1996 12:31:08 -0700 From: Rick Balen Subject: White Oak web site Hi I know that this isn't about any type of costume, but because we do=20 living history our costume is important, and who else would know about=20 that. We teach fur trade history from a reconstructed 1798 North West Co.= =20 fur post. http://northernnet.com/white_oak/index.html I hope everyone understands why I posted this and please let us know what= =20 you think and help us pass the word. Rick Balen --=20 Votre humble & domestique ob=E9issant M. Cotton White Oak Society http://northernnet.com/white_oak/index.html Colonial Treasures http://www.nic.com/%7Ecirca/cs6.htm ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Oct 1996 13:40:58 -0400 From: Marsha Hamilton Subject: Books in Print One comment...the data in Books in Print (BIP), especially the printed version, can be up to a year out of date. I believe the CD version is updated monthly. Not everything listed is actually available. The reverse is also true. Smaller publishers, those with fewer than 5 or so new titles a year, might not be represented in BIP although their titles are available. So use BIP with a grain of salt. Marsha >_Corsets and Crinolines_ IS in print. It is published by >Routledge, Chapman & Hall, Inc. ISBN: 0878305262 >It is currently only available in paperback in the US as far as I can tell. >Any good bookstore should be able to order it for you. Price is listed as >$18.95. > >My source: The current computerized version of Books in Print (which most > large bookstores also use) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Oct 1996 11:23:58 PST From: Loren Dearborn From ???@??? Tue Oct 22 10:32:31 1996 Received: from brownvm.brown.edu by mail.math.TU-Berlin.DE with SMTP id AA08128 (5.67b8/IDA-1.5 for ); Tue, 22 Oct 1996 06:06:47 +0200 Message-Id: <199610220406.AA08128@mail.math.TU-Berlin.DE> Received: from BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU by BROWNVM.brown.edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with BSMTP id 5133; Tue, 22 Oct 96 00:01:59 EDT Received: from BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU (NJE origin LISTSERV@BROWNVM) by BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 0305; Tue, 22 Oct 1996 00:01:52 -0400 Date: Tue, 22 Oct 1996 00:01:12 -0400 Reply-To: Historic Costume List Sender: Historic Costume List From: Automatic digest processor Subject: H-COSTUME Digest - 20 Oct 1996 to 21 Oct 1996 To: Recipients of H-COSTUME digests Subject: 1870's hair I am sorry that this is not really a costume question, but more of an accent to the costume. I have made a basic 1870's bustle dress. I would say that it is more of a morning visiting dress, or such. I need suggestions on what to do with my hair. At the moment it is in long layers. About 2" below shoulders, cut in the v-shape (mid back is longer that the sides). I thought of adding extention, but I can't find a hair piece that matches my hair color. It is red and blond, almost a strawberry. I know that they curled or frizzed the bangs, and created a bustle like effect in the back, but how? And if head wear was worn what kind? I've braided my hair, wrapped it into a bun in the back and curled the hair around my face. If you wanted a more draped look you might do the same only loop the braid up underneath and tie it with a bow to it's base. I'm spacing on the name of the book (English women's clothing in the 19thC? Help me folks) that has line drawings of hair/hat styles from 1800 thru 1890s, that might help. I too would be *very* interested to hear of vendors who have strawberry-blond extensions. I have yet to find any close enough the color of my hair to pass! Cheers, Loren Dearborn ldearborn@calacademy.org ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Oct 1996 11:41:15 PST From: Loren Dearborn Subject: Re[2]: Empire Gowns Dearborn s message do you have a pattern for the regency corset you mention? Would you share???J Gladly! I used what seems to have become my basis for everything these days: Period Costume for Stage and Screen by Hunniset. There are 3 volumes of these wonderful books all with instructions, scaled dress patterns and corset/petticoat/bumroll etc. patterns/instructions as well. These patterns are based upon actual period garmets in most cases, but are adapted to a modern figure - she gives measurements in each book for the scaled patterns, so unless you're the size given there is some fitting/redrafting involved. I got my corset pattern from the last book which covers 1800-1915 (I think...). It is a long, over the hips style with a wooden busk (I took Hunniset's advice and used a cut-to-size and sanded wooden ruler for the busk!!) and lacing up the back. There are gussets to create the breast cups and the over-the-hip shapes. Between these and the busk you definitely get that lift and seperate look seen in so many regency paintings. I like the corset a lot. It gives me support, helps minimize my tummy and gives me that columnar look and it's comfortable besides. And yes, it definitely makes my old folkwear gown look much more true to period! Cheers, Loren Dearborn ldearborn@calacademy.org ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Oct 1996 12:05:11 -0700 From: The Polsons Subject: Cloak Pins While we're talking about costuming myths, here's a vote for making dinner-plate-sized cloak pins obsolete as well... Period sources (including the small collection of 9 pins that I own) indicate that they were MUCH smaller that the flashy Celtic fantasies we see today... ********************************************** Willow Polson....willow@recreating-history.com Recreating History magazine ..."Historic Crafts, Cooking, and Clothing"... ----> http://www.recreating-history.com <----- Call us toll free! 1-(888) REENACT (733-6228) ********************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Oct 1996 12:05:15 -0700 From: The Polsons Subject: Washing Wool, etc. Misty says: >I just bought 6 yds of real(!) wool to make a cape for the SCA. Normally I >prewash all fabrics but I'm not sure how to with the wool. I wash cotton on >hot and dry on hot to shrink it. Should I wash the wool or plan on >drycleaning it? I've found that you can wash the wool in the machine as long as you do so in COLD water, and use an "air dry" or very cool setting on your dryer (or drip dry). I've only had a shrinkage problem with *knitted* wool items, not with *woven* ones. But be sure you wash the fabric at least once before you make anything out of it! I avoid "dry-clean-only" fabrics like the plague... they drive me nuts. Any other comments? ********************************************** Willow Polson....willow@recreating-history.com Recreating History magazine ..."Historic Crafts, Cooking, and Clothing"... ----> http://www.recreating-history.com <----- Call us toll free! 1-(888) REENACT (733-6228) ********************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Oct 1996 12:05:19 -0700 From: The Polsons Subject: Nutcracker tartan Paula says: >This question came across my desk & I thought someone here on h-costume >could give me a few tips. The tartan in question is green & red with >gold threads. The time period of the ballet is the 1880-1890. If the >tartan is not historically accurate, could anyone recommend some suitable >fabric choices? Urk... I would think that by the late 19th c. (and no, I'm not sure), tartan would be used as it was today, as just another geometric fabric. If the dance instructor is being... uh, *strict*... about clans and such, just say she's in the Clan Ross or something else close. ;> The metallic gold is right out, though. Sounds like the dance instructor should be concentrating more on *dance* than on what kind of plaid she's wearing! But I guess the main question here should be, did they use plaid as a fashionable fabric in the late 19th century at all? I would think so, but... Just my $.02... I'm eager to hear other opinions on this.... ********************************************** Willow Polson....willow@recreating-history.com Recreating History magazine ..."Historic Crafts, Cooking, and Clothing"... ----> http://www.recreating-history.com <----- Call us toll free! 1-(888) REENACT (733-6228) ********************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Oct 1996 12:05:23 -0700 From: The Polsons Subject: Chaps Babs said: > Now I'd like to find a pattern for >simple chaps that we could make in any necessary size. Where should >I enquire for this pattern? Where's a good place for supplies for it >once I do locate one? Here's two good sources for leather and patterns (and friendly assistance...) Hanson's Leather Becky Neilson 6900 Andressen Rd. Sheridan, CA 95681 (916) 633-0844 Pale Rider Leather Rick Koster 420 Conrad Dr. Kalispell, MT 59901 (406) 755-0353 (You never know when a request like this will spark some "me too's" 8-) ) ********************************************** Willow Polson....willow@recreating-history.com Recreating History magazine ..."Historic Crafts, Cooking, and Clothing"... ----> http://www.recreating-history.com <----- Call us toll free! 1-(888) REENACT (733-6228) ********************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Oct 1996 14:20:09 -0500 From: Sheryl Nance-Durst Subject: Re: Books in Print >One comment...the data in Books in Print (BIP), especially the printed >version, can be up to a year out of date. I believe the CD version is >updated monthly. Not everything listed is actually available. You're right. The paper edition is only updated yearly, but I was looking at the CD version so _Corsets & Crinolines_ should still be available as of this month. When a book is out of stock or the publisher is not sure if they are going to do another printing, then the CD-ROM version still lists the book, but the record has notes attached to it to that effect. _Corsets & Crinolines_ is still listed as an active record with no restrictions attached. Sheryl J. Nance-Durst ...one of the secret masters of Kansas City MO Public Library the world: a librarian. They p_sheryl@kcpl.lib.mo.us control information. Don't ever p**s one off. - Spider Robinson, _The Callahan Touch_ (Opinions expressed in this message do not reflect the viewpoint of the Kansas City MO Public Library.) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Oct 1996 12:37:09 -0700 From: Frances Grimble Subject: Re: Books in Print Marsha Hamilton wrote: > > One comment...the data in Books in Print (BIP), especially the printed > version, can be up to a year out of date. I believe the CD version is > updated monthly. > > Not everything listed is actually available. The reverse is also true. > Smaller publishers, those with fewer than 5 or so new titles a year, might > not be represented in BIP although their titles are available. So use BIP > with a grain of salt. > Actually, R. R. Bowker, the publisher of _Books in Print_, will list any book from any publisher who submits the proper information. The size of the publisher and the number of titles they publish per year is irrelevant. Since most bookstores and wholesalers rely heavily on _Books in Print_, any publisher with any knowledge of the industry lists all their books there. Any publisher who doesn't is so amateurish they probably have not managed to produce a professional quality book. Bowker has supplementary publications on forthcoming books, and I believe on books that have been declared out of print. The problem with publication dates is, the publisher needs to announce one many months in advance, for marketing purposes. But, in the industry it is standard and expected for the publication date that is announced to be 3-4 months _after_ the book is actually printed, to make major trade reviewers and wholesalers sure they are not dealing with an "old" book. On the other hand, the pub date is set so far ahead that unexpected glitches in the editing or production process can cause the book to be printed _after_ the official publication date. Thus, a publication date is pretty much a ballpark idea of when the book will be available. Fran Grimble ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Oct 1996 16:01:18 -0400 From: Peter Songal <643324@ICAN.NET> Subject: How to Get Involved The informative and inspiring information recently provided by Susannah Eames on the subject of empire gowns has prompted me to ask the following questions: 1) If I were to make an empire gown, where could I wear it? I would love to attend an event where such a gown could be worn. 2) Are there workshops or clubs to attend where I can learn how to properly fit an empire corset and gown? It almost sounds as if it would be easier to work with other people on this project, besides being more fun. I would really like to get involved in something like this, please point me in the right directions. Sincerely, Kathy Songal ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Oct 1996 13:07:41 -0700 From: Frances Grimble Subject: 19th-century plaids Offhand, I can think of one 1880s dress I have in silk plaid (1885 or so--the really big bustle period). It is a small scale plaid in dark green and black, not very ethnic looking. I can also think of an 1870s wool plaid dress I have in a pleasant light brown, somewhat darker than beige, with subdued yellow stripes. Again, the only fabric used. A somewhat larger scale plaid but without much color contrast. And I can remember an 1870s skirt I passed up at a vintage clothing show because the dress bodice was missing, in a medium-sized cream and beige plaid. Thing is, neither children's dress (and I forget if that is what you are talking about) nor theatrical dress followed precisely the same rules as fashionable women's dress. If I were making an 1880s dress for ballet I'd be thinking more about whether it is likely to be too heavy, too hot, or too structured to perform the movements easily. Fran Grimble http://www.best.com/~lavolta/dance/index.htm ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Oct 1996 15:48:43 -0700 From: Glenna Jo & Bill Christen Subject: [Fwd: Re: Men's footwear circa 1800-1810] Jeff Gottfred wrote: >My husband needs shoes to go with his new circa-1805 tailcoat... >Can anyone recommend a good source for information on men's footwear >during this period...custom-made shoes. Who would you folks suggest for >this job? I have had excellent luck with D.J. & J.C. McCabe of Timefarer Footwear in Scotland for my 1860's shoes. I know they do all time periods for which they can find documentation. They have done a lot of work for British museums so that should also be a good clue as to their quality and research. The address I have for them is: The Shoemakers Gorthleck Inverness IV1 2YS Scotland UK tel: 04563 696 They were a delight to work with, and everyone I know that has ordered shoes from them have been very happy. They are reasonable, but they aren't cheap either. You sure get what you pay for! They only use period correct materials and supply documentation for their products if you ask for it. (Wow! What a concept!! :-)) The usual statement applies, I have no connection with them, I'm only a satisfied customer. Glenna Jo Christen gwjchris@rust.net ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Oct 1996 16:26:08 -0400 From: Morghana@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Washing Wool, etc. In a message dated 96-10-21 16:09:45 EDT, willow@RECREATING-HISTORY.COM (The Polsons) writes: << I've found that you can wash the wool in the machine as long as you do so in COLD water, and use an "air dry" or very cool setting on your dryer (or drip dry). I've only had a shrinkage problem with *knitted* wool items, not with *woven* ones. But be sure you wash the fabric at least once before you make anything out of it! I avoid "dry-clean-only" fabrics like the plague... they drive me nuts. >> True, unless you want to change your wool into "felted wool".... there is *nothing* warmer and it is virtually waterproof. You WILL have significant shrinkage, though. I'd figure 10-12 yards (depending on the wool itself and what my "wash test" tells me about the shrinkage. I normally figure I'm gonna lose 25% in length..... ~Morghana ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Oct 1996 16:41:35 -0500 From: Noelle Nicol Subject: Re: Books in Print Is there some way I can order a copy of the Books In Print CD? I'd be very interested in getting my hands on that kind of information base . . . . Thank you! LEM ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Oct 1996 14:41:44 -0700 From: CBecht@LMUMAIL.LMU.EDU Subject: Re: Empire Gowns/corsets Thanks for all the descriptions from Waugh, Hunnisett, etc. It sounds as if the Mantua Maker pattern of an early 19th-century corset is as well researched as it appeared to me to be. It too is a long, straightish corset, covering (and tightening up) the abdomen, with large hip gussets and smaller bust gussets. Very much an evolutionary midstep between the late 18th century stays and the 1830s-40s corsets I see in Waugh. It looks, from initial fittings, like it will achieve easily the columnar, high-busted effect that Susan Loberger and Loren Dearborn described. I can't wait to know for sure. Again, I'd be interested to know if someone more experienced has already tried out the Mantua Maker (AlterYears carries it) pattern and has any comments to share. I agree with the difficulty present-day minds can have adjusting comfortably to an older look (the Regency/Empire era always seems to draw the most disgusted expressions from my non-history-loving friends - while I adore especially the backs of those gowns). I had trouble at first too and messed up my first Regency gown attempt by making its bodice too loose and the waistline too low at the chest wall (not to mention wearing it with a bra!). A year or so after, I gained weight to my dismay, especially in the bust area, and struggled into the gown to find the bodice annoyingly tight - and looking GREAT, or at least, rather accurate. It made for semi-sweet compensation. Cynthia Becht cbecht@lmumail.lmu.edu ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Oct 1996 18:19:15 EST From: dlxibm!Liz_Jones@SMTPGWY.BITNET Subject: French Hoods, Tudor Sleeves & bodice, Foam Dress Forms As quick (but long) a post as I can manage without reading these threads all the way back. As usual, I am behind on my reading! French Hoods: I have made two - one with, and one without a hood. Both successfully stayed on my head, but I do confess to cheating and tacking a small hair comb in each. Both forms were made out of buckram edged with millinery wire (covered with thread, and rather sturdy), and then covered with fabric that had interfacing. At this point in time I would omit the modern interfacing in favor of a heavy linen, as I am becoming more of a purist these days (although not entirely without creativity). I wrestled with the velvet fall issue before succumbing, for I could find no evidence of anything but black (or very dark) velvet. I originally wanted to use black silk, but couldn't justify it. I will give a helpful construction hint to anyone making these, as they are not difficult: the "fall" pattern looks something like a modern sleeve pattern. That is, there is a "hill" on top that is the same as a modern "seam under the arm" cut that we do nowadays. The medieval and renaissance sleeves (for those that don't know) usually went down the back of the arm, thereby creating an "S" (on it's side) on the top of the sleeve pattern. (I didn't mean to digress into this, really!) At any rate, with the French hood, you have to make sure to cut that "hill" or curve rather high, in order to actually go over the top of your head. If you mess up, the headpiece will naturally try to come off because it is simply not big enough. The rest of the "sleeve" just goes round under the nape of your neck: I did actually sew mine into a tubular sleeve form, although I am not sure it is entirely correct. The earlier ones certainly had lappets that flapped about, as in the Holbein print. Tudor Sleeves: More on this time period. I have become a better costumer in these past six years, but I did make two Tudor dresses at that time. These are some things I would change, but the lower sleeves worked all right on both. I did not use any baleen-type stiffener, but simply interfaced them. I think they could have been stiffer, but were not bad. I put a hook underneath my oversleeve that held them in place, and they were just open at the top near the elbow - they did not close around the forearm. As I do not know of any extant pieces, I am not sure this is accurate - it just worked. The interesting thing about this thread to me, however, was the bit about bodices and shoulder straps. In 1989, I was challenged by my then Laurel (in the SCA, that's a master in an art) to "figure out" the construction of the Tudor shoulder seams. We had both agonized over all the fitting issues with the non-visible straps in all the references mentioned in this list, and did not have an answer. She gave me this task as a way to improve my patterning, and solve an outstanding sewing mystery (of which I have many left to solve). After spending several hours drafting, cutting and piecing together pattern pieces, I did achieve the goal: a shoulder piece (the sleeve) that fitted directly to the bodice, with the V-neck in the back and the square neck in front. Yes, folks, those shoulders were tight, but not painful. I could NOT do my hair in them without my arms going numb, but I'm sure that is an accurate feeling. The front of the sleeve forms the side pieces of the rectangular front, and then the back bodice starts at just in back of the shoulder and joins to the sleeve in back, giving a "normal" seam look. The V is certainly not that deep (NOT down to the waist!), but is comparable to the Holbein drawing. I covered the neckline edge with jeweled pieces that were sewn on. Now, I am not saying that this is the actual construction, and have spent many hours after this debating it with various people. I do agree that patterns before and after this time have the shoulder strap in them, and this type of information is usually indicative. However, I am reporting to this list that the construction does work, is comfortable (enough), and most importantly (!) stays on the shoulders (due to the V-neck in back). So I felt that I rose to the challenge and gained information. I will report also that a good friend has borrowed the first "field" Tudor, and is in terrible pain after a few hours of wearing it. I can surmise therefore, that this is the type of fit that MUST be done to only your own body, if you do not want to suffer! Lastly: Foam dress forms - I took a class at SCA XXV year in Texas (that was in 1990) on this subject. The man who taught it had made four, three of which he had there. He did give handouts, and I still have them, but have not tried it myself. I found it fascinating and always wanted to do one. In those, he did make a plaster cast of the torso, then fill it with medical-type foam, as in the type used for casts. Therefore, they do not "give" at all. If you want a corseted form, you must plaster your body with a corset on, etc. They looked great, and I loved the method because it was exact. After looking at dressmaker forms that are sold, I could never figure out how to make them look like me! Too much bother - I'll just use my apprentice to fit me! But these dress forms could be pinned, etc. He did admit to mistakes, and said it took some practice. Here I go: I am done with my SCA commitments for the fall, and will therefore offer to copy this article for interested people. I also have the Gypsy Dress 16th century article to send out, and will honor my promise on that if people will send me a SASE: Liz Jones, 88 Park Street, Bristol, CT 06810 with their choice of article. I have a feeling that I owe some other stuff, but can't remember what! BTW: Erin, I would be really interested in the Eleanora Grave Study that you mentioned as being recently published and in Italian. Did I miss the info on that? Liz Jones Maestra Damiana Illaria d'Onde (SCA) ljones@datalogix.com Don't use "REPLY", use forward or address fresh instead! ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 22 Oct 1996 09:50:30 +1000 From: Wendy Purcell Subject: M.Edge Civil War uniform For the more general stuff on the American Civil War (I presume it's that one), fossick through the Osprey series of books (A4/quarto-ish size paperbacks which usually have accurate watercolours of military subjects - be warned they are not always accurate and are not good as primary research). I think the style coat you are looking at is the one with a slit up the back at the centre; and inverted box pleats at either side. The lapel shapes as well as the buttons can alter according to regiment & etc. In doing the Naval uniform some time back, I learnt that lapels and button numbers were often altered to suit the size and personal choice of the wearer - I presume the same goes for army types, especially of higher ranks. If you are that Martin Edge from Adelaide, you are welcome to pull and tug at my frock coat if you are ever in the civilised part of Australia (Melbourne) some time. If not, most military book stores have a selection of American Civil War resources, some backed by excellent re-enactment societies. On that point, is Gettysberg available on video yet, it's damned good? -CHRISTOPHER BALLIS HOGGING WENDY'S ON-LINE TIME AGAIN ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Oct 1996 20:28:55 -0400 From: Gary Walker Subject: Re: Belts Annikki Weston wrote: >You mean those long leather belts with a metal ring on one >end, tied about the waist in a fashion similar to the way one >ties the girth on a western saddle, leaving a dangling end, >aren't period? The O-rings aren't period, but the dangly ends are, at least in some periods and cultures. Caroline wrote: >What they didn't use was the roller around the cross-piece >most modern belt buckles use. We are talking about the little metal sleeve opposite the side the tongue is connected to aren't we? What makes you say that most modern belts use them? I've made a lot of belts over the years and the only time I've used this type was on equipment requiring cinching, never on clothing, modern or period. I looked in the Tandy catalog (it was handy) and you wouldn't know it from what they offer. Most of the period belts that I've seen (mostly Norse), had what I think are described as D buckles with tongue, strap end, and sometimes even the strap catching bracket (which proper name I can't recall off-hand). As far as ornaments being attached through the belt material, they don't appear to have differentiated between materials (just as likely on woven as leather). Odd. Julie Adams wrote: > . . . but 16th c. belts are normally narrow -- around an inch >wide, and have buckles. I should point out that just because buckles and such are narrow doesn't mean the belt is necessarily. In earlier periods (I sure this isn't applicable to Julie's reference in the 16th C.) belts sometimes were for the most part wider just narrowing down at the ends. This seems to have been a development of a roman military belt, quite wide with one or two narrow belt ends to close them. These also seem to have had a number of dangling straps with strap ends like later Avar and like belts. I've gotten off the track here haven't I? Sorry. >That metal ring was probably originally used because it was >very quick and easy to make and was readily adjustable for >various size people. As I recall from my early days in the Society (23 years), these first appeared among former Navy members. Where they would have encountered them in their service I don't know, but that's what I recall. I wouldn't say they were that common though. Perhaps this is a regional variance. I also do tablet-weaving. From my research I fail to see why you would want to put a buckle on a tablet woven belt. All of the period tablet woven belts I've seen (not many admittedly) were buckleless. I've speculated that this might be one reason that belt buckles aren't found in Norse women's graves. (There are other possibilities too, of course.) That 15th/16th c roller buckle sounds interesting. Sorry I took so long commenting on some of this, my system has been crashing and made things difficult. Gary R.D. Walker Gerekr@aol.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Oct 1996 18:35:48 -0700 From: Margo Anderson Subject: Re: Nutcracker tartan At 12:05 PM 10/21/96 -0700, you wrote: >Sounds like the dance instructor should be concentrating more on *dance* >than on what kind of plaid she's wearing! Not neccesarily. In this type of recital performance, the dance instructor is acting as the director -- and the director of a theatrical event has every right to ask that historical accuracy be maintained. Personally, I'd go with the tartan, but it is the director's call. Margo Anderson ------------------------------ End of H-COSTUME Digest - 20 Oct 1996 to 21 Oct 1996 **************************************************** From ???@??? Wed Oct 23 09:36:57 1996 Received: from brownvm.brown.edu by mail.math.TU-Berlin.DE with SMTP id AA15653 (5.67b8/IDA-1.5 for ); Wed, 23 Oct 1996 06:05:50 +0200 Message-Id: <199610230405.AA15653@mail.math.TU-Berlin.DE> Received: from BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU by BROWNVM.brown.edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with BSMTP id 8360; Wed, 23 Oct 96 00:01:04 EDT Received: from BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU (NJE origin LISTSERV@BROWNVM) by BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 7174; Wed, 23 Oct 1996 00:01:02 -0400 Date: Wed, 23 Oct 1996 00:00:38 -0400 Reply-To: Historic Costume List Sender: Historic Costume List From: Automatic digest processor Subject: H-COSTUME Digest - 21 Oct 1996 to 22 Oct 1996 To: Recipients of H-COSTUME digests There are 13 messages totalling 547 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. How to Get Involved 2. Cloak Pins 3. Empire gowns 4. request for hat (fwd) 5. Sources for 1800-1810 Footwear 6. T-tunics, definitions and assumptions 7. 8. Dance design and historical accuracy (2) 9. Corsets and Crinolines 10. Shoes 11. Australian Naalbinding Representative 12. thanks for all the chaps suggestions ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 21 Oct 1996 21:20:23 -0700 From: Alikhat Subject: Re: How to Get Involved At 04:01 PM 10/21/96 -0400, Kathy wrote: >1) If I were to make an empire gown, where could I wear it? > >2) Are there workshops or clubs to attend where I can learn how to >properly fit an empire corset and gown? > Well, I'm not sure where you're writing from, but here in California we have ( or *had*, I'm not sure, I've been away from this sort of thing for awhile )"The Friends of the English Regency". They give balls, workshops, dance lessons and assorted other events all circling around the years of George's term as Prince Regent. I've been trying to find an address or phone number you can use to get in touch with them, but so far they've both evaded me. I'm certain some- one on this list will have the info, though. Even if you live elsewhere, the "Friends of..." may know who you could contact in your area. Hope this is helpful, Alikhat ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 22 Oct 1996 07:13:54 -0700 From: Conrad Hodson Subject: Re: Cloak Pins On Mon, 21 Oct 1996, The Polsons wrote: > While we're talking about costuming myths, here's a vote for making > dinner-plate-sized cloak pins obsolete as well... Period sources (including > the small collection of 9 pins that I own) indicate that they were MUCH > smaller that the flashy Celtic fantasies we see today... Sorry, but it's just not so. They really did make them that big! When I saw the Treasures of Irish Art museum tour a number of years ago, I was stunned at the size of the Tara Brooch and some of its companions. I've also seen original Norse brooches of impressive size. One thistle pattern penannular had a pin almost a foot long--would have made an impressive weapon. Of course, they also made lots of smaller ones. But the big ones were quite real. Conrad Hodson ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 22 Oct 1996 12:13:01 -0400 From: EGerds@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Empire gowns In a message dated 96-10-21 10:55:10 EDT, P_SHERYL@KCPL.LIB.MO.US (Sheryl Nance-Durst) writes: << Corsets and Crinolines_ IS in print. It is published by Routledge, Chapman & Hall, Inc. ISBN: 0878305262 It is currently only available in paperback in the US as far as I can tell. Any good bookstore should be able to order it for you. Price is listed as $18.95. >> This information is slightly out of date, the current price is $24.95 Liz Gerds ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 22 Oct 1996 14:29:25 -0400 From: suzanne hader Subject: request for hat (fwd) As she says, please address replies directly to her, not to me or the list. Thanks. s. ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Tue, 22 Oct 1996 09:29:52 -0700 From: Aviva Garrett To: smh@cs.brown.edu Cc: aviva@cisco.com Subject: request for hat Hi Suzanne, A coworker pointed me at h-costume. I don't want to subscribe, but I am searching for a nice Napoleon-sytle hat for my manager for Christmas. Can you pass on my request to the h-costume group, and ask that responses be sent directly to me. Thanks, ..Aviva ------- Aviva Garrett Engineering Documentation aviva@cisco.com (408) 526-4667 fax: (408) 526-5080 Cisco Systems 170 W. Tasman Drive San Jose, CA 95134 ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 22 Oct 1996 14:05:59 -0600 From: Brian Hill Subject: Sources for 1800-1810 Footwear A few sources of footwear for the discerning Gentleman or Gentlewoman can be found at the following locations: Buffalo Enterprises 308 W. King St. Box 183 East Berken (sp?), PA 17316 ph 717-259-9081 or 800-458-SHOE Bradley Co. of the Fox 4330 N. State Rd. 110 Oshkosh, WI 54904 414-233-5332 G. Gedney Godwin Box 100 Valley Forge, PA 19481 215-783-0670 Wooden Shoe Factory Box 2102 Holland, MI 49422 616-396-6513 In addition to these I believe Jas. Townsend & Son still carries shoes in their line of wares. I do not have their address, but I do believe they even have a web page, but I do not have their address handy at the moment. I have no investment or other interests in these companies and cannot report on their quality of goods. I would recommend anyone spending $100 - 400.00 for a pair of shoes or boots get several refernces in advance. I have seen some of what is out there and the quality does vary greatly. A good pair of shoes or boots used strickly for re-enactment can last 10 years or better. A poorly made pair you'll want to pitch after the first weekend. I will try to post a list of books on footwear later today ot tomorrow. Brian Hill bjhill@stthomas.edu ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 22 Oct 1996 16:31:15 +0000 From: TEDDY Subject: T-tunics, definitions and assumptions Well, my last attempt at quoting the bits I was talking about worked. Here we go again! Sorry if any of this is already horsemeat, I've been away. Feel free to skip dead threads... > From: Mrs C S Yeldham > Hello Teddy (didn't we meet at Eastercon?) You certainly did. I was hoping to see you at Masque 4 too, you missed quite a fun little costume convention there > >They may be fuller in places, or more fitted in others, but, if > >you lay them out flat they form variations on a "T" shape. > In that sense any garment cut in one piece from neck to floor could be > described as a T-tunic. The key is whether it is a helpful term to use in > talking or thinking about the garment, and I don't think its a very helpful > way to think of the garments when making them, and positively dangerous > when describing them to a new costumer! I agree. I also think that either a set of agreed definitions is needed (given the amount of disagreements that the h-costume regulars seem to have so much fun hashing out this may never happen) or that when reading these postings the h-costume subscribers give up assuming the author of the post means the same thing (by use of a given term or garment name) that the reader would mean by it, and seek clarification if the description seems at odds with their understanding at it. The more postings I read, however, the more I am able to mentally substitute MY terminology for the word/definition I'm reading. I've noticed this in discussions on several subjects. Kirtle: Is there an accepted definition, it seems to me to change according to the nationality of the person posting a piece <> the periods they are used to dealing with/are writing about. Corset/Pair of bodies/bodice : I'm not sure I could sort out where the lines are drawn on these ones. Similarly, I have (not necessarily on h- costume) encountered discussions of gowns, overdresses and surcoats, <> refering to the same garment. On occassion, these have been face-to face discussions with each person using their own preferred term!! Surprizingly, they were all able to follow the conversation and those listening in were able to too, if they mentally substituted their own term for the ones they were hearing. Also, some confusion occurs when people refer to particular periods by established terms (Tudor, Elizabethan, Regency etc) though not necessarily restricting them to the COUNTRY that the term originated in. I confess that I think of the <> covered by these terms, and sometimes forget about the geographical location part. Unfortunately, it gets very confusing (for example) when someone refers to "Elizabethan" when describing a garment that happened to be worn in Italy, during Elizabeth I's reign in England. > >In any given period (I believe) there would have been those who > >refused to wear the current fashions as they didn't like them.... > Yes, you do see this on brasses, women dressed in the fashion of > their youth, not current fashions (don't know any of grandmother's > fashion!). It could be conservatism in the brass engravers, but > could also reflect conservatism in dress, but you see, for example, > gable headresses on women buried in the 1550s and 1560s, when they > tend to have gone out of the pictures by the 1540s at the latest > (Jane Seymour being about the last I can think of, and I often > wonder if that was not a political statement). I have read (in a book about headgear that I haven't got to hand) something which actually does <> to back up my arguement about people not always wanting to wear the current fashions. It stated that the commemorative brasses, effigies and statues were often comissioned while the person was still alive, in order that an acceptably good likeness be achieved. This, I think, was particularly true of those effigies depicting couples, the surviving partner (usually the woman if the man waskilled in battle etc.) would comission both likenesses, and it may be many more years and changes of fashion before she actually went legs-up herself. This all sounds quite reasonable to me. > However, I don't think I can think of an example where one element > of an outdated fashion is 'tacked-on' to a more modern fashion - > tho you do get this with foreign fashions - Stubbs is very funny > about this. A-ha! ASSUMPTIONS! . You're saying foreign fashion as an English person, thinking (mostly) in terms of English conventions. A lot of the postings on h-costume (probably the majority) are not made by English people and some may be using examples from other countries, or several, because they are all from the same period. Now I've lost track of the next item I wanted to answer, perhaps it's just as well... Teddy teddy1@mdx.ac.uk Central Bibliographic Unit Middlesex University Tel No. (0181) 362 6405 If a costume's worth making, it's worth making well enough to wear for every-day ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 22 Oct 1996 15:41:44 -0400 From: jessica Subject: CALL FOR THEATRE\FILM PROPOSALS F.O.O.T 1997 FESTIVAL OF ORIGINAL THEATRE AND FILM "FOR THE RECORD": PEDAGOGY, HISTORY, HISTORIOGRAPHY 5 - 9 March, l997 Graduate Centre for Study of Drama, University of Toronto The Festival of Original Theatre, F.O.O.T., is a student administered conference/arts festival sponsored by the Graduate Centre for Study of Drama, University of Toronto, which unites academia and the arts in a spirit of cross-disciplinary exploration. F.O.O.T combines conference papers, panel discussions, workshops, play readings, story telling, and original stage performances and films. This year, F.O.O.T. will explore theatre, film, and performance historiography and pedagogy: what we as scholars study and how this information is disseminated in the classroom, particularly as it applies to the discipline of performance history/historiography. We invite proposals for original film and theatre presentations which complement our theme. This year, the Artistic Directors would like to stress the developmental mandate of F.O.O.T. by providing access to dramaturgical assistance for each performance group. In the spirit of bringing together the academic and professional worlds, as well as providing students at the Graduate Centre for Study of Drama a forum for learning, F.O.O.T. this year will give both experienced and new dramaturges the opportunity to work on original performance projects. Dramaturigal assistance will be tailored to each performance group based on their needs, as determined through early consultations with directors and/or playwrights. Based on these conversations, groups may have lessor or greater degrees of input from dramaturges - and this is fine. We would like to stress that it is our intention to provide assistance in the developmental process, not interfere with the natural evolution of any particular project. Options available might include workshop time prior to rehearsals in January, one-on-one sessions witth a dramaturge, or having a dramaturge sit in on a rehearsal and provide feedback; again, the type of input will be determined in consultation with each individual performance group. F.O.O.T. also includes a limited number of play-readings and proposals for these are welcomed. Productions should be no more than one hour in length. Proposed topics may include but are not limited to: - Biographical or Autobiographical Accounts of Historical Figures - Period Performance Reconstructions - Reevaluation or Re-imagining of Historical Events - An Exploration of the Nature of Chronology and Place - Theatre or Film as Teaching Tools - The Use and Abuse of Performance History - An Exploration of Vocabularies, Languages and Rhetorical Strategies employed in Performance Studies - Alternative Histories Proposals should include your name, address, title of submission, and a 500 word performance synopsis. THE DEADLINE FOR PROPOSALS IS 18 NOVEMBER 1996. Please direct your submissions or inquiries to: Artistic Directors, F.O.O.T. l997 Tel: (416) 978-7986 Graduate Centre for Study of Drama University of Toronto Fax: (416) 971-1378 214 College Street, 3rd Floor Toronto, Ontario Email: jessica@idirect.com Canada, M5T 2Z9 or kjohnsto@chass.utoronto.ca ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 22 Oct 1996 20:58:29 +0100 From: Maggie Percival Subject: Dance design and historical accuracy Hello everyone, > >Paula says: >>This question came across my desk & I thought someone here on h-costume >>could give me a few tips. The tartan in question is green & red with >>gold threads. The time period of the ballet is the 1880-1890. If the >>tartan is not historically accurate, could anyone recommend some suitable >>fabric choices? You said this was for a cumberbund and bow to go with a jumper. What do you mean by jumper in this sense? > And Willow Polson said > >Sounds like the dance instructor should be concentrating more on *dance* >than on what kind of plaid she's wearing! As a general point on dance design and historical costuming can I just say as someone who does classical ballet (although not professionally) and who has some interest in dance design that I agree whole heartedly with this point. Also I don't know how big the auditorium is but do bear in mind that a different set of rules applies when designing costumes for the stage; you would be quite amazed - for instance - at the effects stage lighting can have on certain fabrics and colours. > But I guess the main question >here should be, did they use plaid as a fashionable fabric in the late 19th >century at all? I would think so, but... More to the point was it fashionable to wear it in Russia in the late 19th century. Apologies for my ignorance on this, but 19th century fashions are not my period of study at all. Though admittedly all of this may well be irrelevant depending on the setting chosen by the director and designer. Fran Grimble says on this subject > >Thing is, neither children's dress (and I forget if that is what you are >talking about) nor theatrical dress followed precisely the same rules as >fashionable women's dress. Exactly > >If I were making an 1880s dress for ballet I'd be thinking more about >whether it is likely to be too heavy, too hot, or too structured to >perform the movements easily. Precisely. It gets very hot under stage lights, and if you are doing ballet you are likely to be very active. As far as weight of fabric is concerned, that depends on the choreography. From what I can remember of the children's dancework in Nutcracker we are not talking about grand jetes or double pirouettes. Even so do consider the dancers and the choreography not just the visual impact of the costumes. > > And Margo Anderson wrote >Not neccesarily. In this type of recital performance, the dance instructor >is acting as the director -- and the director of a theatrical event has >every right to ask that historical accuracy be maintained. Whilst you have a point, I would stress that historical accuracy and ballet do not always go together. Remember that ballet is an art form that relies on highly stylised movement. Most dress styles (and the fabrics used) through the ages were for people who did not move around in that way and are most unsuitable for doing classical ballet. Adaptations and allowances have to be made for that fact. +-- Maggie Percival ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 22 Oct 1996 16:52:41 -0400 From: Jim and Angela Burnley Subject: Corsets and Crinolines Dear List, Corsets and Crinolines is still available, we sell it thru our mail-order. The current publishers price is $24.95. We can be reached at 757 (Or 804) 253-1644, mon thru friday 9:30 to 5:30. Don't mean to solicit sales, but I would hate to see the rumor continue that it's out of print! Angela Burnley Burnley & Trowbridge jasburn@aol.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 22 Oct 1996 17:17:17 -0600 From: Brian Hill Subject: Shoes Some books on shoes that I promised earlier: Footwear: A short history of European & American Shoes Iris Brook New York; Theatre Arts Books; 1971 isbn 0878300473 >From my Grandmothers Hands Carol Sheehan Calgary, Alta; Glenbow-Alberta Institute; 1979 Mode in Footwear Ruth Turner Wilcox New York; C. Schribner's Sons; 1948 Put Your Foot Down: A Treatise on the History of Shoes Florence Ledger Meksham, Wiltshire, UK; 1985 isbn 0854751114 brian hill bjhill@stthomas.edu ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 22 Oct 1996 18:22:44 -0400 From: Gretchen M Beck Subject: Re: Dance design and historical accuracy Excerpts from internet.other.h-costume: 22-Oct-96 Dance design and historical.. by Maggie Percival@IREADH.D > More to the point was it fashionable to wear it in Russia in the late > 19th century. Apologies for my ignorance on this, but 19th century > fashions are not my period of study at all. Though admittedly all of > this may well be irrelevant depending on the setting chosen by the > director and designer. Ah, but only the MUSIC is Russian, and late 1800s--the story is German, and written before 1822. So, is plaid appropriate for Germany sometime after the Napoleonic Wars might be a better question. toodles, gretchen ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Oct 1996 10:30:00 +1000 From: Sarah Randles Subject: Australian Naalbinding Representative Hi All, Tess has very kindly sent me a package of the Naalbinding stuff so that I can distribute to those of us in Australia. I don't anticipate having to pay for the copying, so all you will need to do is send me a stamped self addressed A4 envelope and I will post it out to you when I get it. My address is: 18 Cambridge Gardens Catchpole St Macquarie ACT 2614 Sarah Randles ****************************************************************************** Sarah Randles email: s-randles@adfa.oz.au English Department phone: 06 268 8898 University College ADFA fax: 06 268 8899 Canberra ACT 2601 AUSTRALIA ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 22 Oct 1996 23:19:52 -0500 From: Babs Woods Subject: thanks for all the chaps suggestions I've been watching them go by, both on the list and privately, and there are some good suggestions. I did find the address for a new tack shop in the next town (one of the four towns who contributed ribs to fashion this town out of, in fact) and I might just call them and ask if they carry chaps. As to Fran's suggestion that I just use chain mail, it's pretty amusing. The first respondent I had had offered me Tandy's patterns as a possibility, and also said that maybe chainmail would be an amusing alternative (neither of us know how to make any!), but that maybe wearing the chainmail UNDER the leather chaps would provide for the most safety. I found this as amusing as she did. Then Fran suggests chainmail independently and I just got the giggles! I may end up buying them, it occurs to me, as per someone else's comment privately, that my machine may not be able to handle the leather. It can almost cope with heavy denim. My problem is that I'm such an odd size that I may still end up being obligated to try to make some for myself. I should be able to find his size. This same person points out that sewing kevlar may also be difficult. Anyway, many thanks and I'll try to update people on what the results are. -babs Yes it's period in kevlar! It's late 20th century. So there. :) "Excuse me, while I dance a little jig of despair." ------------------------------ End of H-COSTUME Digest - 21 Oct 1996 to 22 Oct 1996 **************************************************** From ???@??? Thu Oct 24 12:11:45 1996 Received: from brownvm.brown.edu by mail.math.TU-Berlin.DE with SMTP id AA23696 (5.67b8/IDA-1.5 for ); Thu, 24 Oct 1996 06:07:09 +0200 Message-Id: <199610240407.AA23696@mail.math.TU-Berlin.DE> Received: from BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU by BROWNVM.brown.edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with BSMTP id 9810; Thu, 24 Oct 96 00:02:19 EDT Received: from BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU (NJE origin LISTSERV@BROWNVM) by BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 5555; Thu, 24 Oct 1996 00:02:16 -0400 Date: Thu, 24 Oct 1996 00:01:55 -0400 Reply-To: Historic Costume List Sender: Historic Costume List From: Automatic digest processor Subject: H-COSTUME Digest - 22 Oct 1996 to 23 Oct 1996 To: Recipients of H-COSTUME digests There are 18 messages totalling 667 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. Wool-- washing & fulling 2. hair extension color 3. Clothing and Textiles 4. Children's Garb 5. Definitions 6. Children's clothes 7. Various, again! (2) 8. Men's tailcoats circa 1800; clerk's cap 9. cleaning wool 10. Periods and Countries--Suggestion 11. Wool washing and cloak pins 12. T-tunic 13. Turn of the Century Costumes (fwd) 14. How to Get Involved 15. TEXTILES & CLOTHING 1150-1450 16. unsubscribe 17. Nalbinding--The End ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 23 Oct 1996 00:05:30 -0500 From: CJ Brunette Subject: Re: Wool-- washing & fulling I also wash all my wool and have had very good luck with it, it makes lovely cloaks. My recommendation is to wash the yardage on hot a couple times or more, using a cold rinse cycle and dry in a hot dryer. This will give you a lovely fuzzy texture and soft hand. This gets most of the shrinkage out of it, and the fibers go together, so whatever you make is more water resistant. The finished garment can be washed in the machine in cool water, and air dried or put in the drier at a very low setting with little or no further shrinkage or texture changes, although it won't need to be washed too often as it will also repel dirt. --CarolJane in Mpls. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Oct 1996 10:42:53 +0200 From: Barbara Maren Winkler Subject: hair extension color Loren Dearborn writes: >I too would be *very* > interested to hear of vendors who have strawberry-blond > extensions. I have yet to find any close enough the color > of my hair to pass! The hairdresser I went to last week told me that extension hair came in a few different defined colors, which you would blend (by brushing) to achieve your own hair color. So if it was something between blond and red, it should be manageable. Hope this helps. Greetings Barbara Maren -- Barbara Maren Winkler barbara@math.tu-berlin.de ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Oct 1996 10:28:00 0BS From: "Chandler, Sally A." Subject: Clothing and Textiles I have just contacted Her Majesty's Stationery Office, publishers of Crowfoot's Clothing and Textiles (or is it Textiles and Clothing?). This is the book of finds from the Museum of London. The book is not out of print but is available from them, at the address someone gave a few days ago on this list, at about ?32 which includes p&p within the UK. Sally Ann ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Oct 1996 13:43:32 +0000 From: TEDDY Subject: Re: Children's Garb > From: "Carol E. Newby" > Subject: Children's Garb - was: Belts > Does anyone out there have suggestions for costuming children for the > SCA? I have used some of the suggestions in Winter and Savoy's > "Elizabethan Costuming..." and I would like to break away from t-tunics > but still have the garb be comfortable and allow freedom of movement. > What suggestions or tricks does anyone out there have for making garb > that could "grow" with kids (for instance rows of tucks on shifts and > skirts that can be let out). I'm sewing for both a boy and a girl (she's > the older of the two). I'm looking into this one at the moment. From the point of view of practicality rather than accuracy/authenticity - I don't see the point of spending long hours making something that will need constant altering when it's only going to be worn for events rather than every day. What I've come up with, but not yet tried, for girls is a drawstring (sorry Caroline) or elasticated chemise/shift/shirt/smock with tucks in both sleeves and skirts. Over this is a vaguely Renaissance (very-ISH) garment with a "bodice" four panels which laces up centre front and both sides, possibly centre back too. The skirts are open fronted and attached to this bodice and have sections of drawstring casing at the waist where the side (and back) bodice openings are. The centre section of the lacing tape/string passes through the drawstring casing, then up through the lacing holes on the bodice (in whatever the preferred lacing pattern is) to be tied off at the top. The skirt has tucks (on the inside) possibly with braiding over the stitch-lines. Sleeves are seperate and tied or hookeed in place. I'm thinking of seperate upper and lower sleeves that are pointed to each other and around the arm. I have a youngster in mind to test this garment on. Unfortunately, like her mother as a child, young Kethry often resists attempts to get her into dresses! A similar shirt and bodice could be used as shirt and skirted doublet for a growing boy. Persuading the boy to wear the cheap (and easily replaceable) children's tights instead of sewn hose may be a problem however. How did you convince your two Maggie? > From: aleed > Subject: Re: Children's Garb - was: Belts > I have a friend with three children who's in the same situation; i.e., > every time she makes garb for her children, it lasts a total of 1 event > before they outgrow it. > > for her daughter, she has a basic chemise with an elastic neck and wrists > over which she puts an italian-rennish dress which laces in the back. > when she'd found it grew too short for her, she just added a strip of > complementary-colored fabric onto the bottom. Basically, she says that > elastic is her friend. A friend of mine put her daughter into her son's outgrown skirted doublet and added a strip to the bottom. It has worked for a couple of years now. Teddy teddy1@mdx.ac.uk Central Bibliographic Unit Middlesex University Tel No. (0181) 362 6405 If a costume's worth making, it's worth making well enough to wear for every-day ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Oct 1996 14:06:00 BST From: Mrs C S Yeldham Subject: Definitions >From Teddy >I also think that either a set of agreed definitions is >needed The list perennially hits the problem that drawing is impossible on email - so we end up discussing pictures only some of us have seen - pity we can't have a reference library on the Web parallel to the archives - would that be possible? The problem with any of the books, like Cunningham, is that again, not everyone has a copy, or they disagree with the book! >Kirtle: Is there an accepted definition, it seems to me to change according >to the nationality of the person posting a piece <> the periods >they are used to dealing with/are writing about. Corset/Pair of >bodies/bodice : I'm not sure I could sort out where the lines are >drawn on these ones. Similarly, I have (not necessarily on h- >costume) encountered discussions of gowns, overdresses and surcoats, <> refering to the same garment. Well, usage of some (most?) terms changed over time, so people interested in different specific periods may well refer to different garments by the same name. So our definitions could work two ways, the item worn (eg a full-length skirt) and what it was called in different periods; or the name (eg kirtle) and what that signified over various periods. To illustrate some of the problems: On kirtles, in the 15th century (not sure about earlier) a kirtle was a full-length garment, neck to toes, worn (usually) under a gown. By 1550 a kirtle was an underskirt worn over the farthingale, possibly with a decorative forepart attached, or entirely decorated, again worn under a gown. On corset/pair of bodies/bodice - I don't think the term corset is used in the 16th century, its a 'pair of bodies' which may be worn as an undergarment (or corset) or as the top garment (well, a gown could be worn over them). The terms 'corset' or 'bodice' might be used by a 20th century costumer working on the 16th century in order to distinguish between the two types of 'pairs of bodies'. So a working woman would be perfectly well dressed in a pair of bodies and a kirtle (well, assuming coif, smock, shoes and hose), but a gentry lady would be in her underwear. >Also, some confusion occurs when people refer to particular periods >by established terms (Tudor, Elizabethan, Regency etc) though not >necessarily restricting them to the COUNTRY that the term originated >in. I confess that I think of the <> covered by these >terms, and sometimes forget about the geographical location part. >Unfortunately, it gets very confusing (for example) when someone >refers to "Elizabethan" when describing a garment that happened to >be worn in Italy, during Elizabeth I's reign in England. Well, some terms cover the whole of Western Europe, and some are specific - the ones Teddy quoted are all specifically English, and you would have to talk about 'foreign' (non-English, rest of Europe) influences on them. Terms like 'Renaissance' or 'counter-Reformation' (tho I've never seen that used in a costume context) were more general, but would occur at different times in different places, Italian Renaissance can be as early as 1450, but much later in northern Europe. IMHO its not just confusing to refer to a late 16th century Italian dress as 'Elizabethan', or refer to Italian fashions in that context, except as an influence on Elizabethan dress, its meaningless. Also, of course, the term 'Italian' has limited meaning, and not the same as today. The Italian city states were self-governing, and had their own fashions and legislation on fashion. >It stated that the commemorative brasses, effigies and statues were often >comissioned while the person was still alive, in order that an >acceptably good likeness be achieved. This, I think, was >particularly true of those effigies depicting couples, the surviving >partner (usually the woman if the man waskilled in battle etc.) would >comission both likenesses, and it may be many more years and changes >of fashion before she actually went legs-up herself. This all sounds >quite reasonable to me. Not convinced about the likeness - brasses look fairly generic to me. The second point is reasonable. Another theory, its in a book on Suffolk brasses, is that the makers of brasses would have a stock of brasses already engraved and the customer would choose one they liked, so they might well be old-fashioned. >> However, I don't think I can think of an example where one element >> of an outdated fashion is 'tacked-on' to a more modern fashion - >> tho you do get this with foreign fashions - Stubbs is very funny >> about this. >A-ha! ASSUMPTIONS! dramatic pose . >You're saying foreign fashion as an English person, thinking >(mostly) in terms of English conventions. A lot of the postings on >h-costume (probably the majority) are not made by English people and >some may be using examples from other countries, or several, because >they are all from the same period. Interesting point, and it may cause some of the confusion we see. I was thinking as an English person interested in English 15th and 16th century fashions, and the later 16th century was a period when the English were 'magpies' on foreign fashions (interesting lecture by Janet Arnold given with the Dynasties exhibition, pointing out the various 'foreign' elements). To clarify, that's what I meant by 'foreign'. There is an interesting study to be written about how much interplay there was between the different nationalities in terms of clothes, but at the moment, I don't think we know the answer. One indication of the period difference may be the books published in the mid 16th century, there are a couple by Dutchmen, on clothes worn by different nationalities. They, and we, can certainly see differences, which were presumably persistent. A modern European will see great differences between European countries, and make assumptions about differences in the past (which may well be eroneous, or mis-placed). A modern American may well have different views on the effect of geography on people! In this context, does anyone have any idea when 'folk costumes' were established? I have a feeling they are 19th or even early 20th century and don't seem to have much to do with what people were wearing back in the middle ages. Does anyone have any information? Caroline ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Oct 1996 16:03:00 BST From: Mrs C S Yeldham Subject: Children's clothes This is (thank goodness) a problem I haven't had to face. However, friends of mine do in a pretty authentic setting (no drawstrings!). They work on much the same principle as people used to with everyday clothes - hand-me downs, and swopping across families. Each year as the season starts they work out where they are, and what will fit whom, who has a pair of boys hose two sizes up, and who might need a girl's skirt two sizes down.. They usually end up making some clothes each year - but it does save some work. So, one solution might be looking around to see who else in your area/period has children. Even if they are a few years older, they might be able to help you with old stuff. The one thing I've noticed making for children is how quick it is. As a hand-sewer, the seams only take a few minutes - wonderful! Caroline ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Oct 1996 11:20:18 +0000 From: TEDDY Subject: Various, again! > From: Mrs C S Yeldham > how *well* clothes fit everyone except the very poor. The problem > arises with modern people, in that most of us think of *loose* as > *comfortable*, and tight as uncomfortable...(snip)... in my > experience it is difficult to persuade the ordinary 20th century > person that a fitted garment made of wool can be comfortable, I'll agree with this one. Also the more "formal" gasrments in velvets or brocades. My quartered brocade cotehardie (once I'm actually in the thing) with paltock/underdoublet (it's that terminology thing again!) and close fitting woolen hose are all very comfortable, even on a <> hot day. Maggie found the same with her wool dress at the same event, I believe. My late Tudor(esque ) velvet doublet is also comfortable for long periods, even with a fairly full shirt beneath it. > From: Rebecca Plummer > I got an old "My Double" form from the flea market for 50 cents and it is > perfect!!! It is made with wires ( sort of like chicken wire but much easier > to handle and manipulate - rubber coated). It is absolutely perfect!!! You > can create the exact shape you need down to pokey shoulder bones and pot > bellies. I know someone who uses one of these that his mother passed on to him. It's still referred to by the name he and his brother gave it as children. "Metal Mummy". It works well for the shape, the problem being that you can't pin anything to it. I have contemplated making a stretch fabric "sleeve" for it, to see if that would help. Anyone encountered similar problems? > From: K.M.Bunting@DERBY.AC.UK > Subject: 1630s suit - reply > > Glad to know there's someone else on this list interested in the 17th > century! Me too! BTW I'm in the SK to, tho' not very actively as yet > The buttons often sewn down the outside leg seams of breeches were > purely decorative. I don't know of any conventions about whether or > not they matched the doublet buttons, but I should think that if the > doublet and breeches are made of matching fabric it would be > appropriate for the buttons to match too. Kate, should the decorative buttons be unfastenable. I made my breeches with an opening down the side and sewed the buttons through both pieces to hold them together (in a hurry to get them "wearable") I keep meaning to inpick the buttons and work button- holes for them. Is this actually necessary? Thanks Teddy teddy1@mdx.ac.uk Central Bibliographic Unit Middlesex University Tel No. (0181) 362 6405 If a costume's worth making, it's worth making well enough to wear for every-day ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Oct 1996 09:49:29 -0600 From: Jeff Gottfred Subject: Men's tailcoats circa 1800; clerk's cap My husband (the guy who actually does all the hard sewing around here) finally has some questions of his own to pose: 1. Can anyone tell me exactly when a certain men's tailcoat style came into being? I'm having great difficulty pinning this down, and can't find any references in the local libraries to help. The style in question is the direct ancestor of today's formal tailcoat, that is : tails falling from the point of the hips to the back of the knee, with the waist cut straight across above the waistcoat. The lapels in a standard collar (pre-1803?) or M-cut collar (post-1803?) in single or double breasted styles. Does anyone know when this style of topcoat first became common daywear for gentlemen? Was it in the 1790's, did it suddenly come into existence in 1795? All the references I've found really "hand-wave" on this point. Thanks. 2. If anyone knows where I can find a pattern for a clerk's cap circa 1800-1820, I would appreciate it. The cap is a soft cloth cap similar in shape to a "Highland Bonnet" with a leather brim to shade the eyes, and is shown in a number of contemporary paintings of clerks in the Hudson's Bay Company and North West Company. --Jeff Gottfred gottfred@agt.net ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 22 Oct 1996 21:06:00 CDT From: Mickie Erickson Subject: cleaning wool To beat a dead horse further: This information is from the British Army's "Dress Regulations for the Officers of the Army, 1900", reprinted by Arms & Armour Press in 1969, pg 103: "Removing stains from scarlet tunics or frocks." They recommend rubbing the part affected with dry pipeclay and then brushing it well with a clean brush. If this doesn't work ("should this fail to remove them) "The following mixture may be tried;- "1/3 oz of salts of sorrel to 1/2 a pint of boiling water "1/3 oz of cream of tartar to 1/2 a pint of cold water. "each solution should be kept in a separate flat vessel. "These quantities will be sufficient to clean 2 or 3 garments. "The garment which requires cleaning should be first well beaten and brushed, , and a perfectly clean hard brush should be used in applying the solutions. "The solutions should be applied alternately commencing wth the salts of sorrel, until the garment has been washed all over, and all the stains removed. "If the weather permit, the cleaned garments should be hung up in the un to dry; if not, they should be hung up in a dry place, but not near fires or stoves." Tom Erickson ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Oct 1996 10:21:02 PDT From: DGC3%Rates%FAR@GO50.COMP.PGE.COM Subject: Re: Periods and Countries--Suggestion I loved the exchange between Teddy and Caroline, including: =============snip================================ Also, some confusion occurs when people refer to particular periods by established terms (Tudor, Elizabethan, Regency etc) though not necessarily restricting them to the COUNTRY that the term originated in. I confess that I think of the <> covered by these terms, and sometimes forget about the geographical location part. Unfortunately, it gets very confusing (for example) when someone refers to "Elizabethan" when describing a garment that happened to be worn in Italy, during Elizabeth I's reign in England. ============end snip============================= Perhaps some compulsive historian on the list could draw up a parallel timeline with the terms appropriate to various countries, such as English Regency/French Napoleonic/American Federal, or English Elizabethan/Italian Quattrocento? (or would that be English Tudor?) Maybe one of the students could do this for credit. Remember, many email addresses could be anywhere on the globe. Do 'fess up about your location, especially if you are asking about reinactment groups or shopping venues. And it would be sporting to specify _which_ Civil War (as if war were ever civil. Danine Cozzens Internet: dgc3@pge.com Posting from San Francisco, California, USA =================================================================== ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Oct 1996 10:21:18 -0700 From: The Polsons Subject: Wool washing and cloak pins I said: ><< I've found that you can wash the wool in the machine as long as you do so > in COLD water, and use an "air dry" or very cool setting on your dryer (or > drip dry). I've only had a shrinkage problem with *knitted* wool items, not > with *woven* ones. But be sure you wash the fabric at least once before you > make anything out of it! Then Morghana said: >True, unless you want to change your wool into "felted wool".... there is >*nothing* warmer and it is virtually waterproof. > >You WILL have significant shrinkage, though. I'd figure 10-12 yards >(depending on the wool itself and what my "wash test" tells me about the >shrinkage. I normally figure I'm gonna lose 25% in length..... I dunno, I have several wool blankets and cloaks that I've just thrown in the washer and dryer and had very little noticeable shrinkage. The biggest problem I've found is how much of the poor things end up in the lint screen, so I try not to wash them if possible just to avoid wear. Maybe I have magic blankets? (shrug) Maybe I got them pre-washed? It's been surprising me, too, I must confess, but I just wanted to share what I've discovered in my experience. Also, I got an e-mail from a gent who caught me being too general in my comment on small vs. huge Celtic cloak pins. Okay, I'm sure there are examples of pennanulars and the like that are enormous, either because they were meant to be examples of craftsmanship or a noble's gift. There are probably quite a few showy bejeweled ones made for the more well-off. But my contention is that the common, every day, pin-your-clothing-shut-with-something cloak pins are about half the size of the ones commonly offered in current catalogs and such, especially ones intended for fabrics lighter than very heavy wool. Okay, I feel better. 8-) ********************************************** Willow Polson....willow@recreating-history.com Recreating History magazine ..."Historic Crafts, Cooking, and Clothing"... ----> http://www.recreating-history.com <----- Call us toll free! 1-(888) REENACT (733-6228) ********************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Oct 1996 12:10:53 -0700 From: Margo Anderson Subject: Re: Various, again! At 11:20 AM 10/23/96 +0000, you wrote: >> I got an old "My Double" form from the flea market for 50 cents and it is >> perfect!!! It is made with wires ( sort of like chicken wire but much easier >> to handle and manipulate - rubber coated). It is absolutely perfect!!! You >> can create the exact shape you need down to pokey shoulder bones and pot >> bellies. > >I know someone who uses one of these that his mother passed on to >him. It's still referred to by the name he and his brother gave it >as children. "Metal Mummy". It works well for the shape, the >problem being that you can't pin anything to it. I have contemplated >making a stretch fabric "sleeve" for it, to see if that would help. >Anyone encountered similar problems? I believe the "My Double" dress forms were actually sold with a sleeve such as you describe. At least, I know my mom's form had one. I made sleeve for a dress form from 36" tubular rib knit, which worked quite well. Interestingly, my very first award winning costume was the Goddess Athena costume we made together for the Halloween carnival when I was 9. Mom put the My double on me and covered it with aluminum foil to make armor. And she wonders why I'm a costumer instead of a lawyer! Margo Anderson One Tough Costumer ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Oct 1996 16:29:10 -0500 From: "Rachel E. Mast" Subject: Re: T-tunic My fiance and I found a wonderful pattern for a t-tunic. A woman in SCA published it in a news letter we get (Members only). It uses basic geometrical shapes and my fiance made a vewry impressive tunic with about 1 yard of fabric, and very little scrap. I can send it to you if you would like to look at it... Rachel Mast SCA: Sasha ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Oct 1996 17:55:50 -0400 From: Gretchen M Beck Subject: Turn of the Century Costumes (fwd) ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Tue, 22 Oct 1996 21:11:48 -0400 (EDT) From: Rodney Guenther To: h-costume-request@andrew.cmu.edu Subject: Turn of the Century Costumes I'm a graduate student at University of Georgia in the Drama Department. At this time we are researching a show that needs costumes for the late 1800's to early 1900's around 1890-1910 to be precise. My class and I would very much be interested in any information you might be able to provide. My E-mail address is: wolfg@arches.uga.edu Please let me know if it is possible for us to receive this information. If a mailing address is needed please send anything to: Rodney A. Guenther 421 West Hancock Ave. #210 Athens, GA. 30601 Thank You for your time and any response on this request. Rodney A. Guenther ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Oct 1996 18:36:27 EDT From: Susan Subject: Re: How to Get Involved Here's one event for Empire Gowns. Want to say where you're located and perhaps we can connect you with other events? Date: 23 Oct 96 13:10:02 EDT Subject: Vintage Dance Event Announcement November 2, 1996 near Ann Arbor, Michigan English Regency Assembly-Ball. The Friends of the English Regency in the Old Northwest Territory present a dance workshop, period dinner, and early 19th century ball. Cathy Stephens will conduct the workshop and the ball; Horatio's Fancy will provide the music. Advance registration is requested. Subscriptions are $30. Period attire is encouraged for the dinner and ball, but not required. For more information, and to receive subscription forms, contact the Patroness: Jennifer Dye, (313)663-6839, dye@gale.com - - - Susan susan@pcnet.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Oct 1996 15:47:37 -0800 From: Fred Struthers Subject: TEXTILES & CLOTHING 1150-1450 Sally C. writes: >I have just contacted Her Majesty's Stationery Office, publishers of >Crowfoot's Clothing and Textiles (or is it Textiles and Clothing?). This is >the book of finds from the Museum of London. The book is not out of print >but is available from them, at the address someone gave a few days ago on >this list, at about ?32 which includes p&p within the UK. I just can't resist! TEXTILES & CLOTHING 1150-1450 by Crowfoot is listed in my new catalog for $40.00. Email for details. Fred Struthers BOOKS ON CLOTH fsbks@mcn.org ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Oct 1996 19:53:25 -0400 From: Marcia115@AOL.COM Subject: unsubscribe please "unsubscribe" me thanks marcia115@aol.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Oct 1996 22:56:37 -0400 From: Tess Parrish Subject: Nalbinding--The End With this last posting of the packets being sent off today, I bid you all farewell. English and Australian friends have their willing representatives listed below, and if anyone wants to take over my job in the States or Canada, have at it! Good luck and have fun. Tess Packets sent out Oct 23: Wilda Moore Susan Courney Kathy Whitaker Kathy Pryor Sally Ann Chandler--UK Wendy Robertson Jane Shrader Carol Kocian Hugh S. Smith Sarah Randles--Australia I. Pour-El Jari L. James C Flinn Sarahj Davitt-Style Angela Burnley Kathy Whisler Tim Nichols Ann Nielsen ------------------------------ End of H-COSTUME Digest - 22 Oct 1996 to 23 Oct 1996 **************************************************** From ???@??? Mon Oct 28 09:09:44 1996 Received: from brownvm.brown.edu by mail.math.TU-Berlin.DE with SMTP id AA01422 (5.67b8/IDA-1.5 for ); Fri, 25 Oct 1996 06:06:43 +0200 Message-Id: <199610250406.AA01422@mail.math.TU-Berlin.DE> Received: from BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU by BROWNVM.brown.edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with BSMTP id 5863; Fri, 25 Oct 96 00:00:24 EDT Received: from BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU (NJE origin LISTSERV@BROWNVM) by BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 1427; Fri, 25 Oct 1996 00:00:22 -0400 Date: Fri, 25 Oct 1996 00:00:17 -0400 Reply-To: Historic Costume List Sender: Historic Costume List From: Automatic digest processor Subject: H-COSTUME Digest - 23 Oct 1996 to 24 Oct 1996 To: Recipients of H-COSTUME digests There are 15 messages totalling 553 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. I've got the hair now what? 2. I am sorry.... 3. Pluderhosen? (2) 4. 19th c. Hair - New book! 5. Burnley/Trowbridge 6. 19th C. Plaids & Ballet 7. striped silk (2) 8. Wool washing, definitions and good ideas. 9. Wool washing and cloak pins 10. Wool washing, definitions and good ideas 11. Wool washing 12. Renaissance gown 13. FW: Counted Cross-Stitch Kits ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 24 Oct 1996 00:19:47 -0400 From: SyRilla@AOL.COM Subject: I've got the hair now what? Hi, I have just found an almost perfect match for my hair extentions. They have quite a few diffrent shades of red. Everything from blond with red highlights to bright red. The store is in Tenn. It is called "Sally's". If you have any question e-mail me. Now that I have the human hair, how do I attatch it to my head? It is on a long "strand", around a yard long. The length is only about 6" or 7" (they didn't have my color in longer lengths at the time.) I am trying for a 1870's hairstyle. with the bustle effect on the back....I have a few pictures, just not understanding.... Thanks to everyone, for your help. Kimberly SyRilla@aol.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 Oct 1996 00:25:59 -0400 From: SyRilla@AOL.COM Subject: I am sorry.... My friends, I am so sorry about my last post, I did not realise that half of one e-mail became pasted to the h-costume e-mail. I shall be more careful next time. :] Thank you, Sincerly, Kimberly ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 Oct 1996 00:39:03 -0400 From: Susan Carroll-Clark Subject: Pluderhosen? Greetings! Has anyone tried to make up a pair of pluderhosen based on the examples in Janet Arnold's _Patterns of Fashion_? I have someone interested in commisioning a pair from me, and this is one of the few styles in Arnold I _haven't_ tried. Hints, anyone? Susan Carroll-Clark (sca Nicolaa de Bracton) sclark@chass.utoronto.ca ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 Oct 1996 07:37:35 -0400 From: Dale Loberger Subject: 19th c. Hair - New book! I just got a notice from Harper House that, among other things, a new book entitled "The Techniques of Ladies Hairdressing of the 19th. C." is available. It is subtitled, "A compilation of original 19th c. sources by Mark Campbell and Mons. A. Mallemont, edited by Jules & Kaethe Kliot." Harper House s order line is (717) 647-7807. Susannah Eanes, Mantua Maker and Fine Tailoring (Susan Bridges Loberger for Susannah s Heirloom, Ltd.) "We are only the trustees for those that come after us." -William Morris ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 Oct 1996 07:38:38 -0400 From: Dale Loberger Subject: Burnley/Trowbridge Dear All, Now here is a source you all need to get to know better! Write for their catalog --they have very good prices on period woolens and linens, patterns, tapes and trims, buttons, etc.; plus are very nice people to deal with! I am of course not affiliated with them in any way, but I am a very satisfied customer and pleased their company is now on this list. Say a hearty "Welcome!" to Angela and Jim! By the way, you two, I appreciate so much your finding that last 15 yards of brown linen and sending it to me sad to say, however, it is nearly all gone by now! Any more word on the striped linen you were going to try to get? >Please add us to your list. We are the owners of Burnley and Trowbridge, >purveyors of 18th century fabrics and related goods. We are members of the >BAR, British Brigade, Living History Association and Costume Society. We >were told about your list by Ed and Jean Wilde and look forward to >participating. >Thank You, >Angela and Jim Burnley >jasburn@aol.com Susannah Eanes, Mantua Maker and Fine Tailoring (Susan Bridges Loberger for Susannah s Heirloom, Ltd.) "We are only the trustees for those that come after us." -William Morris ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 Oct 1996 07:42:12 -0400 From: Dale Loberger Subject: 19th C. Plaids & Ballet My vintage clothing dealer friend has an ACW-era silk taffeta bodice that is red, green, black, and yellow plaid of medium scale. It is trimmed with black velvet covered buttons and bands. We have all seen plenty of tartan-influenced plaids thoughout the nineteenth century in fashion illustrations Queen Victoria loved them. What bothers me is the stage-mother attitude of the woman who purchased the fabric for the production and then vows to "prove to him that it is correct," instead of asking the director _before_ she bought the fabric if it was what he had in mind for children to wear in the party scene. Often, a dance instructor is only being polite when what he really means is "no." I know. I ve danced Nutcracker and others many times. Ceccetti, of course. Susannah Eanes, Mantua Maker and Fine Tailoring (Susan Bridges Loberger for Susannah s Heirloom, Ltd.) "We are only the trustees for those that come after us." -William Morris ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 Oct 1996 07:43:06 -0400 From: Dale Loberger Subject: striped silk Meg, Deb, et al If anything has changed in the last five years and anybody is carrying period striped silks meaning something other than heavily slubbed wild jewel-toned combinations, I want to know. My favorite source is the direct importer listed below. They have the best prices anywhere but they still don t have period striped silks. WinterSilks, BTW, sells silk long johns, stockings, etc. Great undies, no fabric. Unless you want to consider chintz (a chintzy substitute, I ll be bound ) I d go with the Duchess of Richmond. What a nifty class this must be Silks at great prices from: Exotic Silks! 1959-B Leghorn, Mountain View, CA 94043 (415) 965-0712 Susannah Eanes, Mantua Maker and Fine Tailoring (Susan Bridges Loberger for Susannah s Heirloom, Ltd.) "We are only the trustees for those that come after us." -William Morris ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 Oct 1996 12:58:29 +0000 From: TEDDY Subject: Re: Wool washing, definitions and good ideas. > I also wash all my wool and have had very good luck with it, it > makes lovely cloaks. My recommendation is to wash the yardage on hot > a couple times or more, using a cold rinse cycle and dry in a hot > dryer. I do this with most of the fabrics I use - one experience too many of the "pre-shrunk" calico I bought shrinking once the garment was made up! I'll try it with wool too. One lad I made some trousers for had no idea how to clean wool, so put them in with the regular wash. He now has a pair of tight, thick, fuzzy trousers which reach to just below the knee, with a cotton lining that hangs out the bottom. He still wears them for some events on the grounds that the lining tucks into his knee-length boots more easily and comfortqably... > From: Mrs C S Yeldham > Subject: Definitions > The list perennially hits the problem that drawing is impossible on email - > so we end up discussing pictures only some of us have seen - pity we can't > have a reference library on the Web parallel to the archives - would that be > possible? Great idea, I wonder if it'd work! > Not convinced about the likeness - brasses look fairly generic to > me. Sorry, my mistake! I rechecked the book - it didn't mention brasses, just the effigies. > Interesting point, and it may cause some of the confusion we see. I was > thinking as an English person interested in English 15th and 16th century > fashions, and the later 16th century was a period when the English were > 'magpies' on foreign fashions (interesting lecture by Janet Arnold given with > the Dynasties exhibition, pointing out the various 'foreign' elements). To I heard that lecture too, unfortunatly without being able to see the slides of examples. Very interesting. Was an official recording made of it, by any chance? > From: Danine Cozzens (DGC3%Rates%FAR@GO50.COMP.PGE.COM) > Subject: Re: Periods and Countries--Suggestion > Perhaps some compulsive historian on the list could draw up a parallel timeline > with the terms appropriate to various countries, such as English Regency/French > Napoleonic/American Federal, or English Elizabethan/Italian Quattrocento? (or > would that be English Tudor?) Maybe one of the students could do this for credit. > > Remember, many email addresses could be anywhere on the globe. Do 'fess up > about your location, especially if you are asking about reinactment groups or > shopping venues. And it would be sporting to specify _which_ Civil War (as if war > were ever civil. I like these ideas too. Any volunteers for drawing up the timeline? I'm posting from London, England and haven't yet attended any events outside of the UK. All my experience (or lack thereof) and views will tend to reflect this. I'm also NOT a member of the SCA, though I will be attending one of their local events next month and have been in a similar group for a few years now. Believe me, most of my costumes are no great shakes in the authenticity field. > From: Margo Anderson > I believe the "My Double" dress forms were actually sold with a sleeve such > as you describe. At least, I know my mom's form had one. I made sleeve for > a dress form from 36" tubular rib knit, which worked quite well. I don't know if Metal Mummy is a "My Double". I don't know if a US model would have made it to the UK. If I ever get 'round to making the sleeve for her, I'll let you know how well it works. > Teddy teddy1@mdx.ac.uk Central Bibliographic Unit Middlesex University Tel No. (0181) 362 6405 If a costume's worth making, it's worth making well enough to wear for every-day ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 Oct 1996 09:51:05 -0400 From: Morghana@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Wool washing and cloak pins In a message dated 96-10-23 14:27:57 EDT, willow@RECREATING-HISTORY.COM (The Polsons) writes: << I dunno, I have several wool blankets and cloaks that I've just thrown in the washer and dryer and had very little noticeable shrinkage. The biggest problem I've found is how much of the poor things end up in the lint screen, so I try not to wash them if possible just to avoid wear. Maybe I have magic blankets? (shrug) Maybe I got them pre-washed? It's been surprising me, too, I must confess, but I just wanted to share what I've discovered in my experience. >> I always wash (and felt) my fabric as yardage. The 25% shrinkage figure I cited was more or less a "worst case"... I've seen it be less than that. (However, I didn't want to recommend it, cite a lower percentage and have the list want to Tar-and-Feather me because the shrinkage rate was higher for others! :::Grin:::) As the usual disclaimer, YMMV when you do this. (Or should I say "YYMV" -- Your Yardage May Vary???) To be perfectly candid, the amount of shrinkage depends on a couple factors, one of which is the weave of the wool itself. A fabric that is tightly woven to *begin* with will not shrink as much. Again, try a test swatch first (I usually use a half yard or so), measure CAREFULLY, and wash as you would the *real stuff*. When you're done felting it, remeasure it and you can usually calculate the shrinkage pretty accurately from that. I'd personally rather invest in a half yard that I never end up using than face that major frustration of not buying enough fabric and having to struggle to figure out a way to get my design to work in less yardage, or worse---having to abandon the design I had in mind and go with "Plan B"..... of course, my CAT adores felted wool, and considers those *experiments* perfect-sized "catnappers"........especially when placed in a bay window in the sun..... ~M ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 Oct 1996 16:18:56 +0000 From: TEDDY Subject: Wool washing, definitions and good ideas This is a resend as I got an "undeliverable" message when it bounced back to me Sorry if it appears twice. > I also wash all my wool and have had very good luck with it, it > makes lovely cloaks. My recommendation is to wash the yardage on hot > a couple times or more, using a cold rinse cycle and dry in a hot > dryer. I do this with most of the fabrics I use - one experience too many of the "pre-shrunk" calico I bought shrinking once the garment was made up! I'll try it with wool too. One lad I made some trousers for had no idea how to clean wool, so put them in with the regular wash. He now has a pair of tight, thick, fuzzy trousers which reach to just below the knee, with a cotton lining that hangs out the bottom. He still wears them for some events on the grounds that the lining tucks into his knee-length boots more easily and comfortqably... > From: Mrs C S Yeldham > Subject: Definitions > The list perennially hits the problem that drawing is impossible on email - > so we end up discussing pictures only some of us have seen - pity we can't > have a reference library on the Web parallel to the archives - would that be > possible? Great idea, I wonder if it'd work! > Not convinced about the likeness - brasses look fairly generic to > me. Sorry, my mistake! I rechecked the book - it didn't mention brasses, just the effigies. > Interesting point, and it may cause some of the confusion we see. I was > thinking as an English person interested in English 15th and 16th century > fashions, and the later 16th century was a period when the English were > 'magpies' on foreign fashions (interesting lecture by Janet Arnold given with > the Dynasties exhibition, pointing out the various 'foreign' elements). To I heard that lecture too, unfortunatly without being able to see the slides of examples. Very interesting. Was an official recording made of it, by any chance? > From: Danine Cozzens (DGC3%Rates%FAR@GO50.COMP.PGE.COM) > Subject: Re: Periods and Countries--Suggestion > Perhaps some compulsive historian on the list could draw up a parallel timeline > with the terms appropriate to various countries, such as English Regency/French > Napoleonic/American Federal, or English Elizabethan/Italian Quattrocento? (or > would that be English Tudor?) Maybe one of the students could do this for credit. > > Remember, many email addresses could be anywhere on the globe. Do 'fess up > about your location, especially if you are asking about reinactment groups or > shopping venues. And it would be sporting to specify _which_ Civil War (as if war > were ever civil. I like these ideas too. Any volunteers for drawing up the timeline? I'm posting from London, England and haven't yet attended any events outside of the UK. All my experience (or lack thereof) and views will tend to reflect this. I'm also NOT a member of the SCA, though I will be attending one of their local events next month and have been in a similar group for a few years now. Believe me, most of my costumes are no great shakes in the authenticity field. > From: Margo Anderson > I believe the "My Double" dress forms were actually sold with a sleeve such > as you describe. At least, I know my mom's form had one. I made sleeve for > a dress form from 36" tubular rib knit, which worked quite well. I don't know if Metal Mummy is a "My Double". I don't know if a US model would have made it to the UK. If I ever get 'round to making the sleeve for her, I'll let you know how well it works. Teddy teddy1@mdx.ac.uk ====================== Bibliographical Services Dept. * If a costume's worth * Middlesex University * making, it's worth * Bounds Green Road * making well enough * London, N11 2NQ * for every-day wear. * England ====================== Tel No.(0181) 362 6405 ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 Oct 1996 10:35:19 -0600 From: Andrew Tarrant/Julie Malin Subject: Re: Pluderhosen? Yep! I made the Nils Sture pair for my husband (who always claimed that he would never be caught dead in a codpiece, I might add) and he wore them to death (I gave them a decent burial this fall, as it happens). I made them from a magazine article she had published prior to the output of Patterns in Fashion, so I didn't realize that the poor kid they came from was only 12 when he was killed. Needless to say I had to increase the pattern size, but that was the only problem I encountered. They are comfortable, and quite straitforward to construct. Julie At 12:39 AM 10/24/96 -0400, Susan Carroll-Clark wrote: >Greetings! > >Has anyone tried to make up a pair of pluderhosen based on the >examples in Janet Arnold's _Patterns of Fashion_? I have someone= interested >in commisioning a pair from me, and this is one of the few styles in Arnold >I _haven't_ tried. > >Hints, anyone? >Susan Carroll-Clark >(sca Nicolaa de Bracton) >sclark@chass.utoronto.ca > > =A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4= =A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4 ]=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF[ Home of Trespasser Ceramics /=AF=AF=AF\=AF=AF=AF\=AF= =AF=AF\=AF\=3D\\ Andrew Tarrant - (SCA) Eric the Trespasser | \ @ \ @ \ @ \ | || Julie Malin - (SCA) Ara the Trespassed | \ \ \ \|= || Turner Valley, Alberta, Canada, T0L 2A0 \ \ \ \ = /=3D// Phone/Fax - (403) 933-7221 \_\___\___\ / =A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4= =A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4=A4 '-------------' ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 Oct 1996 13:07:52 -0700 From: Diana Habra Subject: Re: Wool washing The comments up to date on the wool washing issue have been very informative. I'd like to put my two cents in just for the record. Make sure that if you buy wool, it is 100% wool. I have been burned by buying a wool/acrylic blend that went from 3 yards of fabric to 1 1/2 yards of a heavy wool blanket after washing. In short, it shrinks practically in half and is far too thick to use for anything except a coat or a blanket. Along the same lines, beware of *mystery* wool blends. These might contain acrylic or other nasties that you may not want, not to mention that they usually only have 20% wool content in them. If you are buying wool, don't settle for something that may be more polyester than wool. Well, that's my two cents. I hope that you all can avoid the same mistake I made in buying wool. Rose :~> ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 Oct 1996 21:04:53 -0300 From: Margaret Rae Carignan Subject: Re: striped silk My thanks to all of you who sent ideas for sources of striped silks. I have to agree with Dale Loberger, that period stripes are going to be scarce like the teeth of female chickens. Besides, my professor decided to let me do one of Marie Antoinette's gowns (painted by Vigee le Brun) which is a royal blue velvet! I will keep looking for period stripes, though, because they were so very popular and would be a great resource. Anyone who is interested in more information about the Dalhousie University Costume Studies programme can write to me. It is a fabulous two year program, with an optional third year specialization in either Theatre, Film, Design, or Museum Studies. The things we are learning are unbelievably cool. Right now I am learning to draft any kind of pattern for any period of garment, using reasonably simple rules. We are also cutting a period shift (period being, in this case 1780's) this week, and next week we'll start on our stays. The costumes made in this class are museum-quality, and that's in the first year! Yeehaw! Thanks again for all your help. You'll be hearing from me again, no doubt. Meg/Francesca ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 Oct 1996 19:11:41 -0500 From: Heather McGlaughlin Subject: Renaissance gown Good Gentles: I am new to the list and though I have made a lot of garb, most of it has been fairly simple, and my methods of construction hit-and-miss, learning from experience along the way. (I learned to sew in my college drama shop, and theater sewing is very thrown-together). I would like to refine my sewing skills by attempting some more complex types of garb. I am beginning a new Italian Ren. dress, having made a couple before, but never so elaborate. I would like to hear suggestions on construction of the early period corset (most info on the Web is for Elizabethan corsets), or general construction tips for the dress itself, to achieve a more "period" silhouette. The bodice is to be made of an antique white upholstery fabric with a regular "dot" pattern to which I am hand sewing pearls to each dot. The skirt (which I plan to attach in box-pleat manner) is of an antique white heavy drapery satin (duller finish and heavier than satin- like a shantung, only shinier). I have a regular lightweight lining fabric for lining the bodice, and also plan to use some interfacing for added bodice stiffness. The sleeves will be in two sections, tied on and buttoned on the front of the arm. If I'm stupid enough, I will also sew pearls on the sleeves (same fabric as bodice). The bodice is made from a mundane jumper pattern (SEE and SEW at Walmart), fitted, though I had to take out the darts (Thanks again to the Known World Handbook). It is to be made in two pieces (front and back, with the back part being split in the middle and laced up. I am rather busty, so I think the back lacing will work better than side lacing. All my previous Ren. dresses have laced up the front (which leaves room for error). I would still like to achieve some decollete, but still with the somewhat flat bodice front (hence the need for a corset) Please email me privately with suggestions, comments,or other help!! Heather McGlaughlin fiona macLachlan Graduate Assistant Chatelaine Choral Activities/ Dept. of Music Shire of Hammerhold University of Mississippi Oxford, MS University, Mississippi 38677 (601) 281-0250 ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 Oct 1996 22:36:06 PDT From: ches@IO.COM Subject: FW: Counted Cross-Stitch Kits On Thu, 24 Oct 1996 22:16:03 -0500 Joe Bosko wrote: >Interested in obtaining Medieval/Celtic Counted Cross-Stitch Kits. Accolade >Art & Sound Design (seen at many SCA events) is now carrying them -- direct >from England. Contact me if you are interested... > Brennan > > ..o0*0o.. Lady Chiara Ciao @}\ Ches @}----`--,-- @}/ ------------------------------ End of H-COSTUME Digest - 23 Oct 1996 to 24 Oct 1996 **************************************************** From ???@??? Mon Oct 28 09:09:45 1996 Received: from brownvm.brown.edu by mail.math.TU-Berlin.DE with SMTP id AA09294 (5.67b8/IDA-1.5 for ); Sat, 26 Oct 1996 06:07:06 +0200 Message-Id: <199610260407.AA09294@mail.math.TU-Berlin.DE> Received: from BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU by BROWNVM.brown.edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with BSMTP id 4154; Sat, 26 Oct 96 00:02:12 EDT Received: from BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU (NJE origin LISTSERV@BROWNVM) by BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 7511; Sat, 26 Oct 1996 00:02:10 -0400 Date: Sat, 26 Oct 1996 00:02:06 -0400 Reply-To: Historic Costume List Sender: Historic Costume List From: Automatic digest processor Subject: H-COSTUME Digest - 24 Oct 1996 to 25 Oct 1996 To: Recipients of H-COSTUME digests There are 13 messages totalling 284 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. Wool Washing 2. cross stitch kits 3. Italian Ren gown 4. Thanks for plaid help 5. Folk Costume 6. Tail Coats 7. Wool washing AND Orvus (2) 8. Renaissance gown (3) 9. striped silk 10. FW: Counted Cross-Stitch Kits ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 24 Oct 1996 23:35:21 -0700 From: Diana Habra Subject: Re: Wool Washing The comments up to date on the wool washing have been very infomative. I'd like to put my two cents in just for the record. Make sure that if you buy wool, it is 100% wool. I have been burned by buying a wool/acrylic blend that went form 3 yards of fabric to 1 1/2 yards of a heavy wool blanket after washing. In short, it shrinks practically in half and is far too thick to use for anything except a coat or a blanket. Along the same lines, beware of *mystery* wool blends. These might contain acrylic or other nasties that you may not want, not to mention that they usually only have 20% wool content in them. If you are buying wool, don't settle for something that may be more polyester than wool. Well, that's my two cents. I hope that you all can avoid the same mistake I made in buying wool. The blanket is warm, though..... Rose :~> ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 25 Oct 1996 09:32:25 -0700 From: Donna Mann Subject: Re: cross stitch kits > On Thu, 24 Oct 1996 22:16:03 -0500 Joe Bosko wrote: > >Interested in obtaining Medieval/Celtic Counted Cross-Stitch Kits. Accolade > >Art & Sound Design (seen at many SCA events) is now carrying them -- direct > >from England. Contact me if you are interested... > > Brennan Could you send me information on the cross stitch kits? Their address. What patterns you have seen. I have never seen any of their kits. TIA donna ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 25 Oct 1996 09:10:49 -0500 From: Sheryl Nance-Durst Subject: Re: Italian Ren gown >I am beginning a new Italian Ren. dress, having made a couple before, but >never so elaborate. I would like to hear suggestions on construction of the >early period corset (most info on the Web is for Elizabethan corsets), or >general construction tips for the dress itself, to achieve a more "period" >silhouette. >Please email me privately with suggestions, comments,or other help!! Could people who answer please post to the list as well? The answers would be very interesting to me! :) Sheryl J. Nance-Durst ...one of the secret masters of Kansas City MO Public Library the world: a librarian. They p_sheryl@kcpl.lib.mo.us control information. Don't ever p**s one off. - Spider Robinson, _The Callahan Touch_ (Opinions expressed in this message do not reflect the viewpoint of the Kansas City MO Public Library.) ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 25 Oct 1996 09:14:25 -0500 From: Sheryl Nance-Durst Subject: Thanks for plaid help I just wanted to say thanks to everyone who responded to my question about plaid & the Nutcracker. The person who asked the question was very grateful (although the child's mother was dissapointed). Everyone on this list has always been so helpful whenever I've asked any questions or had any comments! Sheryl J. Nance-Durst ...one of the secret masters of Kansas City MO Public Library the world: a librarian. They p_sheryl@kcpl.lib.mo.us control information. Don't ever p**s one off. - Spider Robinson, _The Callahan Touch_ (Opinions expressed in this message do not reflect the viewpoint of the Kansas City MO Public Library.) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 Oct 1996 20:59:00 CDT From: Mickie Erickson Subject: Folk Costume In answer to the date of origin on folk costumes: Norwegian folk costumes (Bunads) were perfected early ths century; they were based on what people had traditionally worn in those districts. The interesting thing, is that they were an outgrowth of youth cultural movements (Extremely patriotic ones at that) They were researched as a move to re-establish norwegian cultural identity after centuries of foreign rule. Tom Erickson ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 Oct 1996 20:59:00 CDT From: Mickie Erickson Subject: Tail Coats "The Cut of Men's Clothes 1600 - 1900" (Norah Waugh) has a pattern for the Dress Tail Coat from 1825 - this is the current type, with the front that is not meant to close. (there are several examples fom this decade) Does this help? Tom Erickson ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 25 Oct 1996 15:04:14 -400 From: "Jill L. Cassebaum" Subject: Re: Wool washing AND Orvus Can wool items, that were not washed before being made (and therefore not pre-shrunk) be washed in Orvus (along with all the other more delicate fabrics)? Or will it still shrink just because of the water? Thanks. Jill ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Oct 1995 16:33:26 -0400 From: Sharon and/or Mikie Subject: Renaissance gown This is just a comment, and is not meant to sound catty in any way, but it is a huge misconception among a lot of people who have never done costuming for theatre (professional theatres, as opposed to community or most college shows) Costuming for theatre is not just thrown together - especially in period shows. A company that connot afford to make period costumes will rent them from one who can. Currently, in Ontario Canada, Stratford Ontario makes beautiful, well made period cotumes. They may not be totally historically accurate in their construction techniques, but they are in their look and the way they hang. Just a comment to clear up miconceptions!!!! :) Sharon ***************************** * * * DON'T MESS WITH TECHIES - * * * * THEY ALL CARRY KNIVES * * * ***************************** ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 25 Oct 1996 16:03:17 -0500 From: Hollie Hoffman Subject: Re: striped silk At 21:04 10-24-96 -0300, you wrote: >My thanks to all of you who sent ideas for sources of striped silks. I >have to agree with Dale Loberger, that period stripes are going to be >scarce like the teeth of female chickens. >Meg/Francesca Could you please post a complete list of the various recommended sources? Thank You, Hollie ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 25 Oct 1996 14:08:48 -0700 From: "B.M. O'Brien" Subject: Re: Wool washing AND Orvus On Fri, 25 Oct 1996, Jill L. Cassebaum wrote: > Can wool items, that were not washed before being made (and therefore > not pre-shrunk) be washed in Orvus (along with all the other more delicate > fabrics)? Or will it still shrink just because of the water? I think that the process of felting should be explained, as that is what happens when wool shrinks. I am sure there are those out there who know much more than I (like almost everybody, right Meg?), so please correct me or add to this. It is the process of the agitation of the washing machine which felts (shrinks) the wool. As the wool agitates the fibers which have little burr like scales interlock with each other causing the fibers to shorten, tighten, and the fabric to appear fuzzier "fuzzier". So, it is less a matter of what you wash it in, than a matter of how you wash it. Although I do understand that using hot water opens up the hair shafts to make the felting process quicker and tighter. I would suggest washing items which have not been preshrunk by hand in cool water. I have to admit, I use Tide [tm] on my wool in the washer on delicate and have had very good luck, but then I hang it to dry. PS [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Peggy Sue O'Brien pegisue@u.washington.edu University of Washington Lady Orfhlaith Ingen Bhriain Infectious Diseases, Mailstop SJ-10 Barony of Madrone, An Tir Seattle, WA 98195 [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 25 Oct 1996 18:11:32 +0500 From: Ann Orr Subject: Re: FW: Counted Cross-Stitch Kits >On Thu, 24 Oct 1996 22:16:03 -0500 Joe Bosko wrote: >>Interested in obtaining Medieval/Celtic Counted Cross-Stitch Kits. Accolade >>Art & Sound Design (seen at many SCA events) is now carrying them -- direct >>from England. Contact me if you are interested... >> Brennan I would be interested in getting the address of the company. Perhaps they have a distributor in the US or Canada that I could contact? Maybe? Lone Heart, lneheart@vianet.on.ca So many ideas, so little time! "Sorry, I thought it was a cariboo. So many hunting accidents around here." DS Pilot. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 25 Oct 1996 19:55:22 -0400 From: "Penny E. Ladnier" Subject: Re: Renaissance gown At 04:33 PM 10/25/95 -0400, you wrote: Costuming for theatre is not just thrown together - especially in >period shows. A company that connot afford to make period costumes will >rent them from one who can. Currently, in Ontario Canada, Stratford Ontario >makes beautiful, well made period cotumes. They may not be totally >historically accurate in their construction techniques, but they are in >their look and the way they hang. > >Sharon At the theatre department I am at, Virginia Commonwealth University, a large percentage of period costumes are are researched, designed and made. I know this for a fact, I've been spending the majority of my semester researching the costumes. Most theatre companies in this area do the same. Penny Penny E. Ladnier, Virginia Commonwealth University s0peladn@erols.com http://www.geocities.com/BourbonStreet/2157 "If it is out there, I'll find it..." ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 25 Oct 1996 22:15:36 -0300 From: Margaret Rae Carignan Subject: Re: Renaissance gown I have to concur with Sharon on this; not only are theatrical costumes not "thrown together", but are (if in a reputable theatre) built with the strictest attention to durability and quality of construction. I have seen costumes, used in long runs of plays, then passed to another theatre, for another long run. I don't know too many commercially made clothes that would put up with the punishment that theatrical costumes can take. I once lined a coat that had to put up with being "broken down" by being stomped on in a parking lot for a couple of hours, with washings in between! The fabric aged twenty years in two days, but the coat held together beautifully. Meg ------------------------------ End of H-COSTUME Digest - 24 Oct 1996 to 25 Oct 1996 **************************************************** From ???@??? Mon Oct 28 09:09:45 1996 Received: from brownvm.brown.edu by mail.math.TU-Berlin.DE with SMTP id AA12426 (5.67b8/IDA-1.5 for ); Sun, 27 Oct 1996 05:06:08 +0100 Message-Id: <199610270406.AA12426@mail.math.TU-Berlin.DE> Received: from BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU by BROWNVM.brown.edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with BSMTP id 6337; Sun, 27 Oct 96 00:01:16 EDT Received: from BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU (NJE origin LISTSERV@BROWNVM) by BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 3902; Sun, 27 Oct 1996 00:01:16 -0400 Date: Sun, 27 Oct 1996 00:01:14 -0400 Reply-To: Historic Costume List Sender: Historic Costume List From: Automatic digest processor Subject: H-COSTUME Digest - 25 Oct 1996 to 26 Oct 1996 To: Recipients of H-COSTUME digests There are 8 messages totalling 195 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. Quaker clothing 2. Renaissance gown 3. Clothing and Textiles 4. TEXTILES & CLOTHING 1150-1450 5. hi 6. wool question 7. theatrical costumes 8. Elizabethan bodice question ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 26 Oct 1996 08:06:00 +0000 From: Carol Blanchard Subject: Quaker clothing I have a friend who is not connected to the net, but is a Quaker clothing research historian. She is looking for others who have information or collections of clothing to share. Information concerning design-line and fabric and looking for Quaker's men's clothing before 1875. Please reply to me personally. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 26 Oct 1996 08:19:39 -0400 From: Kelly A Rinne Subject: Re: Renaissance gown now I have a misconception to clear up: have you ever been in their shop and seen their costumes? my thesis project is AMADEUS, which 80% rented from Stratford. Every single costume is STITCHED BY HAND! Not a machine stitch in it. (you ought to see their contract) Their shop employs hundreds of people, they mke their own buttons and shoes, and the costumes are expensive. It actually often costs more to rent a package than it does to buildone, especially if you are in a university situation and dont have to pay labor. Kel On Wed, 25 Oct 1995, Sharon and/or Mikie wrote: > This is just a comment, and is not meant to sound catty in any way, but it > is a huge misconception among a lot of people who have never done costuming > for theatre (professional theatres, as opposed to community or most college > shows) Costuming for theatre is not just thrown together - especially in > period shows. A company that connot afford to make period costumes will > rent them from one who can. Currently, in Ontario Canada, Stratford Ontario > makes beautiful, well made period cotumes. They may not be totally > historically accurate in their construction techniques, but they are in > their look and the way they hang. Just a comment to clear up > miconceptions!!!! :) > > Sharon > ***************************** > * * > * DON'T MESS WITH TECHIES - * > * * > * THEY ALL CARRY KNIVES * > * * > ***************************** > ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 26 Oct 1996 15:44:28 -0400 From: Veda Crewe Joseph Subject: Re: Clothing and Textiles The price below looks like it is in British pounds and the price of the=20 book in the United States will be based on the exchange rate at the time=20 for the purchaser. A number of dealers in the US carry books from HMSO. Veda Crewe Joseph Chandler, Sally A. wrote: >=20 > I have just contacted Her Majesty's Stationery Office, publishers of > Crowfoot's Clothing and Textiles (or is it Textiles and Clothing?). Th= is is > the book of finds from the Museum of London. The book is not out of pr= int > but is available from them, at the address someone gave a few days ago = on > this list, at about ?32 which includes p&p within the UK. >=20 > Sally Ann --=20 =D0=CF=11=E0=A1=B1=1A=E1 ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 26 Oct 1996 16:07:25 -0400 From: Veda Crewe Joseph Subject: Re: TEXTILES & CLOTHING 1150-1450 Fred Struthers wrote: If this is true, than the book seller who told me they were out of=20 print and sold me the book for $75. really ripped me off. Veda Crewe Joseph > TEXTILES & CLOTHING 1150-1450 by Crowfoot is listed in my new catalog f= or > $40.00. >=20 > Email for details. >=20 > Fred Struthers > BOOKS ON CLOTH > fsbks@mcn.org --=20 =D0=CF=11=E0=A1=B1=1A=E1 ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 26 Oct 1996 15:16:34 -0800 From: "R.L. Shep" Subject: hi I have been off the list for a couple of weeks. I have been in Yemen, which is a strict muslim country. Men BUY their wives who become their property. They are allowed 4 of them (if they can afford them) and if they want more they just get rid of some (i.e. kick them out - no $$ settlement, no alimony, no nothing). I never saw any women (except European tourists who are mostly women). The Yemeni women are covered head to foot in black (a few have slits so you can see their eyes). Lots of interesting costume information (that for women had to be gathered by what was sold in the marketplace). I always wanted to find out what a strict muslim country was like. Now I know! (& you think you have it bad!). ~!~ R.L. Shep ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 26 Oct 1996 22:29:45 -0400 From: Gaelscot@AOL.COM Subject: wool question As far as wool felting goes ... recently I attempted to felt some sweaters for a patchwork vest described in an old "Threads" magazine. I started with two, both bought at garage sales, and both identified as pure wool. One looked pretty much like acrylic to me, and absolutely nothing happened to it after three washings. The other, a cable-knit, got incredibly tiny and ended up more than 1/4-inch thick! How tiny? It was a size large, and my two-year-old thought the final product was for her. The article SAID it would end up about a quarter of the original size, and it was! You've got to see it to believe it. My question is this: does felting WOVEN wool end up with the same amount of shrinkage? I would like to try this someday. Gail Finke/gaelscot@aol.com PS: I haven't felted the dark colored sweaters yet, so I haven't done any sewing. But the article said that sewing felted wool is very hard on your machine. Just thought I'd pass that caution along... ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 26 Oct 1996 22:29:49 -0400 From: Gaelscot@AOL.COM Subject: theatrical costumes I have seen the costume shop at the Stratford Shakespeare Festival in Ontario, and it is incredible. GOOD theater companies do some amazing work. But let's face it, not all costume shops are created equal. Some of them are terrible. Two years ago I saw a production of "The Magic Flute" with costumes that my high school would have been ashamed of -- it was at the Cincinnati Opera, which usually has incredible sets and incredible or at least good costumes. These were rented from a reputable source, and they STUNK. (Maybe there was a shortage of Baroque and Egyptian costumes in the Midwest that month.) Like the amateurs, the professionals vary in quality and ability! Gail Finke/gaelscot@aol.com ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 26 Oct 1996 23:12:41 -0400 From: Annikki Weston Subject: Elizabethan bodice question Hello! I've decided to make one of the Elizabethan bodices that have a high neckline and collar, rather than the lower cut ones that I've been doing. In particular, I'm basing my dress on the 1588 portrait of the Countess of Leicester, page 127, _Queen Elizabeth's Wardrobe Unlock'd_. However, I'm not certain how this high neck with a collar will work on my own, big-chested, form. It's easy to have a bodice with a neckline just above the line of my corset--anything that just refuses to stay put in the corset doesn't mess with the lines of the bodice because there just isn't any bodice there! But I'm not sure how that overflow will affect the lines of a bodice that goes up to my neck. I know the chest should look rather flat. However, I suspect that that's not going to happen on a 40DD body--at least not in the upper chest area. Will this affect things in an odd way? Is there anyone out there with experience in dealing with high-necked bodices for large-chested women, who might have tips on how to deal with this? Should I just look into breast reduction surgery? :) Thanks in advance! Annikki Weston ------------------------------ End of H-COSTUME Digest - 25 Oct 1996 to 26 Oct 1996 **************************************************** From ???@??? Mon Oct 28 09:09:45 1996 Received: from brownvm.brown.edu by mail.math.TU-Berlin.DE with SMTP id AA15946 (5.67b8/IDA-1.5 for ); Mon, 28 Oct 1996 06:00:55 +0100 Message-Id: <199610280500.AA15946@mail.math.TU-Berlin.DE> Received: from BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU by BROWNVM.brown.edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with BSMTP id 1090; Mon, 28 Oct 96 00:00:59 EST Received: from BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU (NJE origin LISTSERV@BROWNVM) by BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 3282; Mon, 28 Oct 1996 00:00:58 -0500 Date: Mon, 28 Oct 1996 00:00:56 -0500 Reply-To: Historic Costume List Sender: Historic Costume List From: Automatic digest processor Subject: H-COSTUME Digest - 26 Oct 1996 to 27 Oct 1996 To: Recipients of H-COSTUME digests There are 7 messages totalling 186 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. More 'Liz bodice 2. Elizabethan bodice question 3. Books in Print 4. Hennins 5. Bustle help needed 6. Italian Corsets? 7. Naalbinding packet ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 27 Oct 1996 00:49:27 -0400 From: Annikki Weston Subject: More 'Liz bodice Ah-HA! After some fiddling around, I think I've discovered a solution to my own problem: big, wide shoulder straps on the corset! And the pattern-drafting seems to be going well, too! Any tips other people come up with, though, are still appreciated! On a side note: embarassment is when your 18 year old brother and some other guy that you don't know show up at your door unexpectedly at 12:30 AM to use your phone (okay, so I forgot that he said, a week ago, that they might drop by). And you're in half-finished garb, the top of which is just a pinned-together trial run. Eek! Nikki Weston weston@tardis.svsu.edu ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 27 Oct 1996 11:01:28 -0400 From: Margaret Rae Carignan Subject: Re: Elizabethan bodice question Howdy! I personally am large all over - not just in the bustal region, although my corset pushes enough other stuff up there to produce the same effect. I made an Italian 1590's gown with a high collar, and the only way my apprentice Bess Darnely and I were able to make it fit without a big boink of fabric at the upper chest was to force a dart out of the area. This was a big dart to force out, so some of it went into the armhole,some into the front (making a curved closure), and some into the neck. (In the pattern only, of course - no darts in the fabric when you're done) If you look at some of the late Tudor high-necked gowns, you will note that the collar is not really very close to the neck. (Most of the examples of this style in Ashelford show this.) Unfortunatly, the Elizabethan ones always have that pesky ruff obscuring the neckline, so it's hard to tell what the neckline looks like. What did these people do with their breasts??!!? (I know the story of the Spanish, flattening theirs with lead weights, but I prefer not to believe it.) This is yet another of those major challenges in cutting and design decision-making that we are forced to overcome in making historical costume fit modern figures. Please let me know how it turns out - man, I wish we could see picures on this thing! Wouldn't it be too cool to be able to see each other's work? ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 27 Oct 1996 10:21:45 -0600 From: "Sandra L. Waldrop" Subject: Re: Books in Print On Mon, 21 Oct 1996, Noelle Nicol wrote: > Is there some way I can order a copy of the Books In Print CD? I'd be very > interested in getting my hands on that kind of information base . . . . Finally got around to tracking this down. The Books In Print CD comes as a monthly subscription and costs roughly 1200 dollars a year. The head of the Reference department at my library suggests that you can get almost-as-good results by consulting www.amazon.com, an online bookstore that is apparently quite comprehensive. Sandy Waldrop swaldrop@prairienet.org ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 27 Oct 1996 13:58:27 -0400 From: Tristan Subject: Hennins Greetings to all I am wearing a hennin on this upcoming festive week and was wondering if anyone had any tricks for stabilizing not to mention keeping it on my head. It seems to stay on with the just the little black velvet loop across the forehead, but I need and want it to stay on. Would a small skullcap underneath attached to the base of the hennin help? Any ideas and tricks would be most appreciated.. thanks... Tristan Deiphilus@InfoAve.net "Fides: Our bodies may tremble at the the thought of tortures, yet our souls exult in the reward so grand." >From -The Martydom of the Holy Virgins Fides, Spes, and Karitas- Hroswitha of Gandersham ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 27 Oct 1996 21:18:24 GMT From: Mary Subject: Bustle help needed Does anyone on the list own a "Langtry" or "Canfield" bustle that they would be willing to send me the measurements of. An engraving of this bustle can be found in N. Waugh's "Corsets and Crinolines" p.127 Mary temple@globalnet.co.uk ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 27 Oct 1996 18:07:05 -0500 From: Susan Carroll-Clark Subject: Italian Corsets? Greetings! I was not under the impression that early (pre 1450-1500 or so) Italian women's garmets _had_ corsets. If you look through the glossary in Jacqueline Herald's book on the period, you'll notice that there does not seem to be a word or description of anything that could be a corset. Look at the silhouettes--the bustlines are rounded, and held in just below the waist. Past experience tells me that this silhouette is consistant with two or more layers of laced (front or side or perhaps side-back) garments, at least one of which is made of substantial material. The look generally is flowing and soft. Now, after, say, 1500-ish, the silhouette does begin to change, and the front of the garment flattens, similar to Tudor and Spanish fashions, although there are stylistic differences. For this period, it seems clear that some kind of corseting was probably used. By the time of the Eleanor of Toledo dress in Janet Arnold (which looks more Italian than Spanish to my eye) and such, corsets are definitely in use. Please, if anyone has info to the contrary, please post! Cheers! Susan Carroll-Clark sclark@chass.utoronto.ca ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 27 Oct 1996 16:29:08 -0700 From: Chris Laning Subject: Naalbinding packet First, I want to express my appreciation of Tess (though I know she's out of town at the moment and won't read this) for making the packet of information she received on Naalbinding more generally available. (Naalbinding is a technique that looks rather like knitting, but is worked with a sewing needle and short lengths of yarn.) Alas, I *blinked* and missed the days she was offering to make copies, so I didn't get one. She also asked if anyone was willing to volunteer to distribute more copies. I know there was much more demand for that information than Tess expected; I think she sent off something like thirty or forty copies. Some of you who received it may be hesitating to offer to make it available lest you be similarly overwhelmed. I'll offer you a deal: I'd be happy to distribute more copies, if I can get a copy myself. Is there someone who received one who would be willing to e-mail me privately and arrange for me to get one? If so, when I get it, I'll make it available again. Thanks, Chris ____________________________________________________________ O Chris Laning | + Davis, California ____________________________________________________________ ------------------------------ End of H-COSTUME Digest - 26 Oct 1996 to 27 Oct 1996 **************************************************** From ???@??? Tue Oct 29 11:45:18 1996 Received: from brownvm.brown.edu by mail.math.TU-Berlin.DE with SMTP id AA23999 (5.67b8/IDA-1.5 for ); Tue, 29 Oct 1996 06:02:09 +0100 Message-Id: <199610290502.AA23999@mail.math.TU-Berlin.DE> Received: from BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU by BROWNVM.brown.edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with BSMTP id 3227; Tue, 29 Oct 96 00:02:11 EST Received: from BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU (NJE origin LISTSERV@BROWNVM) by BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 9286; Tue, 29 Oct 1996 00:02:09 -0500 Date: Tue, 29 Oct 1996 00:02:06 -0500 Reply-To: Historic Costume List Sender: Historic Costume List From: Automatic digest processor Subject: H-COSTUME Digest - 27 Oct 1996 to 28 Oct 1996 To: Recipients of H-COSTUME digests There are 15 messages totalling 454 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. 1630's suit - Reply - Reply 2. Italian Corsets? (2) 3. Gowns, theatrical or otherwise 4. hi (2) 5. Gowns theatrical 6. JA Shirts and Smocks Article (2) 7. Belts 8. Yul Brynner's _King And I_ pants 9. Italian Corsets (2) 10. UK Dress History Conference 97 11. My hair thanks you... ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 25 Oct 1996 15:10:25 +0000 From: K.M.Bunting@DERBY.AC.UK Subject: 1630's suit - Reply - Reply The Cunningtons mention earlier 17c styles of breeches as sometimes having a few buttons left open above the knee to show the lining, so some must have had functional buttonholes, but I would think they were mostly just stitched on as decoration. I suppose it depends on how "grand" your attire is, Teddy, how much work you want to put into it! Kate (from Derby) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 28 Oct 1996 06:42:43 -0500 From: Gary Stephens Subject: Re: Italian Corsets? Susan Carroll-Clark wrote: >I was not under the impression that early (pre 1450-1500 or so) Italian >women's garmets _had_ corsets. At the moment I'm reading _Dress in Italian Painting 1460 - 1500_, by Elizabeth Birbari. An extremely informative book, BTW. I think perhaps the confusion some people have is identifying corsets with laced bodices - an error of which I am formerly guilty. Indeed there are rather constricting bodices throughout the 1450-1500 period. However, like you, I find no reference to corsets. Lorina J. Stephens author of _Touring the Giant's Rib_ & _Credit River Valley_ http://web.idirect.com/~canuck/stephens/stephen.html ------------------------------------------------------------ assistant editor, art director Maple Syrup Simmering http://web.idirect.com/~canuck/canzine.html ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 28 Oct 1996 11:49:00 BST From: Mrs C S Yeldham Subject: Gowns, theatrical or otherwise I'm not sure where this started, but I could like to reply to Sharon's comments from a re-enactor's point of view. I have not made for the theatre, but I have looked at quite a lot and have also gleaned some of what is said below from Janet Arnold and Jean Hunnisett's books. Sharon Wrote: >This is just a comment, and is not meant to sound catty in any way, but it >is a huge misconception among a lot of people who have never done costuming >for theatre (professional theatres, as opposed to community or most college >shows) Costuming for theatre is not just thrown together - especially in >period shows. A company that connot afford to make period costumes will >rent them from one who can. Currently, in Ontario Canada, Stratford >Ontario >makes beautiful, well made period cotumes. They may not be totally >historically accurate in their construction techniques, but they are in >their look and the way they hang. Theatrical costumers have two prime concerns, 1) that the clothes will look good over the lights and 2) that they can be changed into and out of quickly (depending on the play), frequently and by people who know little about costumes (well, actors have other concerns). The demands of theatrical lighting (or TV or film) are different from everyday lighting, and theatrical costumers use all sorts of techniques to give the correct impression (glue, spraying, painting). An outfit duplicating the original, made in the correct fibres, with correct fastenings, may well look like nothing on stage (and take hours to get in and out of, even with assistance). Equally, a quick change demand may involve a modern fastening - fine if it cannot be seen over the lights. This is fine for the theatre, but does rule out using these costumes in a context where they are worn in natural light and judged at a few inches. This is why you will find re-enactors steering people away from theatrical costumes, because they are designed for a different job. The thing to remember is that neither type of costume is wrong, they are both correct *in the right context*. On the question about making a Renaissance gown - Jean Hunnisett's book of patterns covering Medieval - 1500 has lots of useful information on Italian Renaissance construction. On the question about a doublet bodice on an Elizabethan gown - I've never made one as I have a similar problem (big bust). However, a friend has and according to her a curved seam running from the front of the arm (about half-way down), over the bust and into the waist, is very useful for taking in excess material over the bust. The front closure is also not straight but curved. It works for overgowns and 15th century kirtles - which I have made! Caroline ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 28 Oct 1996 11:35:26 +0000 From: Dorothy Stein Subject: Re: hi Although there are many abuses of the custom, and many cultures (including traditional Jewish) demand 'bride-price' (often construed as a payment to the bride's parents for the trouble and expense they've had in bringing her up), the theory of 'mahr' or dowry in Islam is that, if a man decides to get rid of his wife and can't think of anything terrible she's done, or, more often, doesn't want to insult her family, the 'mahr' is the payment she gets to support her thereafter, or at least until her 'guardian' (male relative, father, uncle or even son) can marry her off again (ii.e, it is a sort of alimony). In some places, only half the 'mahr' is paid at marriage, the other half on divorce. Of course, the woman's male relatives often grab the lot. On Sat, 26 Oct 1996, R.L. Shep wrote: > I have been off the list for a couple of weeks. > > I have been in Yemen, which is a strict muslim country. Men BUY their > wives who become their property. They are allowed 4 of them (if they > can afford them) and if they want more they just get rid of some (i.e. > kick them out - no $$ settlement, no alimony, no nothing). I never saw > any women (except European tourists who are mostly women). The Yemeni > women are covered head to foot in black (a few have slits so you can see > their eyes). Lots of interesting costume information (that for women > had to be gathered by what was sold in the marketplace). > > I always wanted to find out what a strict muslim country was like. Now > I know! (& you think you have it bad!). > > ~!~ R.L. Shep > ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 28 Oct 1996 09:47:38 -0500 From: Dawn Vukson-Van Beek Subject: Re: Italian Corsets? On Sun, 27 Oct 1996 18:07:05 -0500 wrote... >Greetings! > >I was not under the impression that early (pre 1450-1500 or so) Italian >women's garmets _had_ corsets. If you look through the glossary >in Jacqueline Herald's book on the period, you'll notice that there >does not seem to be a word or description of anything that could be >a corset. Look at the silhouettes--the bustlines are rounded, and >held in just below the waist. Past experience tells me that this >silhouette is consistant with two or more layers of laced (front >or side or perhaps side-back) garments, at least one of which is made >of substantial material. The look generally is flowing and soft. I would agree with this whole-heartedly. The inventory lists that I have read do not list any corsets- though bodices are listed. The bodice of Elenora Toledo is velvet and linen-lined, but not boned. It is closed with hook and eyes, not laced. I believe the stiff nature of this bodice achieves the silhoutte, not a corset. >Now, after, say, 1500-ish, the silhouette does begin to change, and >the front of the garment flattens, similar to Tudor and Spanish fashions, >although there are stylistic differences. For this period, it seems >clear that some kind of corseting was probably used. By the time >of the Eleanor of Toledo dress in Janet Arnold (which looks more Italian >than Spanish to my eye) and such, corsets are definitely in use. I differ here. Eleanora of Toledo was buried in a bodice, not a corset. If a woman who had eleven children by age forty doesn't need a corset- then who does? I still believe the later silhouette is achieved with a bodice, not a corset- and no farthingales either, though Janet refers to Spanish Farthingales in _Patterns of Fashion, 1560-1620_. Her conclusion is based on a bronze of Isabella of Portugal. Even though Eleanora is from Spain, the Spanish farthingale fashion came in after she had been in Italy for over 20 years. I don't think that stays and bones were a part of Italian dress. This is my theory, but I haven't found anything conclusive to contradict this. I hope to hear more on this discussion! Keep 'em in stitches, Dawn %%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%% Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely. *...broad, wholesome, charitable views... can not be acquired by vegetating in one's little corner of the earth. Mark Twain, _Innocents Abroad_, 1869 Dona Lucia Porzia Sforza di Firenze, modernly known as Dawn Vukson-Van Beek vukso001@tc.umn.edu http://www.tc.umn.edu/nlhome/g080/vukso001/dawn/home.html %%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%% ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 28 Oct 1996 09:04:58 -0800 From: "R.L. Shep" Subject: Re: hi Dorothy Stein wrote: > > Although there are many abuses of the custom, and many cultures > (including traditional Jewish) demand 'bride-price' (often construed as a > payment to the bride's parents for the trouble and expense they've had in > bringing her up), the theory of 'mahr' or dowry in Islam is that, if a > man decides to get rid of his wife and can't think of anything terrible > she's done, or, more often, doesn't want to insult her family, the 'mahr' > is the payment she gets to support her thereafter, or at least until her > 'guardian' (male relative, father, uncle or even son) can marry her off > again (ii.e, it is a sort of alimony). In some places, only half the > 'mahr' is paid at marriage, the other half on divorce. Of course, the > woman's male relatives often grab the lot. > This maybe true in some places, but I have been told on the best authority that it is not in Yemen. The price it paid to the woman's father. The woman becomes the property on the man. If he tires of her, and he needs no excuse, then she is out. At most he ays "milk money" a very small amount to provide milk for the children. > > ~!~ R.L. Shep > > ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 28 Oct 1996 12:09:50 -0800 From: Kat Hargus Subject: Re: Gowns theatrical I have to agree with Caroline 100%. I have my degree in Technical theatre, with an emphasis in costume, also a double minor in history and English lit. The gowns made for the stage must hold up under very abusive conditions -- especially if you consider things light fights scenes in Romeo and Juliet. (1st play that came to mind :^) ) My love however, is re-enactment clothing. I have a shp that specializes in anything pre-1840, and the tecniques are very different! Some one wearing a gown to a ball is going to be very careful -- it is theires, they spent MONEY on it, and once they get home, it will be lovingly hung in the closet until the next festival. A theatrical peice is changed out of in less that 2 min. (fast change -- sometimes less) often dropped on the nearest flat surface until an overworked wardrober grabs it up after sending the person who was just wearing it back out. These clothes are covered in greasy makeup, sweat, occasionally a kool-aid or tea spot, and other scuffs and mars. You've got to create something that can be easily repaired if it doesn't hold up. And, ususally costume is the last thing on teh budget -- unless you're lucky enough to have a director who is hung up on realism, not just looks. Thanks for letting me add my .02! Kat Making Time ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 28 Oct 1996 12:40:25 -0500 From: Gretchen M Beck Subject: JA Shirts and Smocks Article Last night, my husband reached behind one of our bookcases and emerged with the Janet Arnold Shirts and Smocks article that was discussed here, lo, these many weeks ago. So, if anyone wants a copy, let me know. toodles, gretchen ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 28 Oct 1996 14:18:00 -0500 From: Morghana@AOL.COM Subject: Re: JA Shirts and Smocks Article In a message dated 96-10-28 13:43:46 EST, grm+@ANDREW.CMU.EDU (Gretchen M Beck) writes: << Last night, my husband reached behind one of our bookcases and emerged with the Janet Arnold Shirts and Smocks article that was discussed here, lo, these many weeks ago. So, if anyone wants a copy, let me know. >> I'd very much like one. Is this going on the newsgroup, or be emailed privately? Or... horrors!!! will this be snail-mailed? Let me know at your convenience..... ~Morghana ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 28 Oct 1996 16:13:38 -0500 From: Joe Marfice Subject: Re: Belts Caroline wrote: >What they didn't use was the roller around the cross-piece >most modern belt buckles use. I have in my possession some finds, auctioned off by a museum, from a XIV-C dig in England. Among them, item: a small iron belt buckle, with an opening approx. 3/8" / 9 mm. wide, with a separate iron riveted clasp for attaching to the leather strap or belt, an iron tongue, and a tiny sheet-metal tube (with a clear seam) fashioned around the outer side of the buckle. Yep, a 3/8"-wide roller buckle. I can't imagine why, though; roller buckles, as others have noted, are used in high-tension applications like saddle straps to reduce friction during attachment. Very intricate, overall. | Broom at The Lady Perrine | Ministerium honor est. \|/ Which means "Hey, Sysop, quit deleting my damned SIG file!" /|\ 513-222-2330 233 Perrine Street //|\\ af289@dayton.wright.edu Dayton (my fayre citee), OH 45410 ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 28 Oct 1996 16:37:09 -0500 From: "Elizabeth J. Poole" Subject: Yul Brynner's _King And I_ pants I can make a reasonable costume approximation of the Yul Brynner _King And I_ coat pattern very easily. Can anyone here tell me the correct name of the siamese pants he wears, or, failing that, at least point me to some pattern that approximates them? My thanks in advance, cheers, ejp -------- Elizabeth Poole ejp@watson.ibm.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 28 Oct 1996 15:32:02 -0800 From: Diana Habra Subject: Re: Italian Corsets Dear Readers, I would have to agree with Dawn's comment that bodices were not really necessary to achieve the correct silhouette in Italian Rennaisance fashions. I have made two of these types of dresses and with a somewhat generous bust, I believed a corset was necessary. Just in case, though, I lined my bodice with horsehair braid (the stuff they use for suit lining) and an inner lining of a substantial cotton. What I realized after wearing them a couple times is that if made properly, there is no need for a corset. With the bodice being stiff, it acted LIKE a corset and was actually much more comfortable considering that there were no bones to contend with. I will have to comment that the first one I made was a back lace gown (diagonal lacings, of course) and was made out of a heavy upholstery fabric which gave much smoother lines. The second was made out of a twill with the same lining materials and was front laced. It does not give as smooth a silhouette (some slight wrinkling can be seen in places) and it was necessary to put a metal bone on each side of the lacings in order for it to fit together properly without gapping. There again is my two cents. I hope to hear other comments and suggestions on this topic. Rose ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 28 Oct 1996 23:47:26 GMT From: Mary Subject: UK Dress History Conference 97 I don't think this has been mentioned on the list before, forgive me if I missed it. In celebration of it's fiftieth anniversary The Gallery of English Costume will be holding a conference to be held in Manchester, England from the 3rd -6th of July 1997. Subjects to be covered Include:- Museum Studies, Art History, Economic History, Cultural and Gender Studies, and The Role and The Making of Reproduction Dress. I will be happy to forward any further information The Gallery send me. Please Email me if interested. Mary temple@globalnet.co.uk --- ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 28 Oct 1996 22:33:20 -0400 From: Margaret Rae Carignan Subject: Re: Italian Corsets Yes, I think we are all in agreement about pre-1500 Italian gowns not requireing what we think of as a corset - a stiff, boned thing that makes you flat. I have heard, however, that Italian costumes (such as the giorino, the organ-pipe pleated gown like in Lotto's "Man and Woman at a Casement" was worn over a PADDED underbodice (padded with bundles of reeds laid horizontally). I can't remember where I heard this, but I have yet to see a reference to it in print. We should also remember that not all "corsets" are boned, but are merely foundation garments that make a shape, whether rounded or flattened, or whatever. As to Eleanora of Toledo, two things. Yes she was Spanish, but lived in Italy, and probably wore Italian fashion (perhaps with a little Spanish twist). She was also, not surprisingly, dead when she was buried (or at least, we like to assume this), and therefore might have lost some weight before she died. She certainly wouldn't have needed as much corset as a live, healthy woman! If you look at all the portraits of Eleanora by Bronzino (or school of), they all look pretty flat and corseted to me. A broad survey of the available evidence (pictoral mostly) suggests to me that come Italians went corsetted, and some did not. Some bodices are as flat as a Spaniard's and some have a definite curve. As far as farthingales are concerned, Kohler states that Italians didn't wear them, but wore instead "stiffened petticoats". What is the difference, pray tell? Again, some dresses look loose and "flowy" and some are certainly conical. Oh, the questions! Meg/Francesca ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 28 Oct 1996 23:33:41 -0500 From: SyRilla@AOL.COM Subject: My hair thanks you... My friends, I received so much help on getting my hair and the extentions into a 1870's style that I thought it best to send a heart felt thank you to the list. I had the chance to wear the costume to an early costume party, instead of waiting on holloween. Everyone commented on my hair, and not a single person, not even my family (who knew about the hairpieces) could tell that it wasn't all mine. It did take over 21/2 hours to prepare it, but it was worth the experience. And I will do it all again Thrusday....... Thank you again. Sincerly, Kimberly SyRilla@aol.com ------------------------------ End of H-COSTUME Digest - 27 Oct 1996 to 28 Oct 1996 **************************************************** From ???@??? Wed Oct 30 12:24:58 1996 Received: from brownvm.brown.edu by mail.math.TU-Berlin.DE with SMTP id AA03664 (5.67b8/IDA-1.5 for ); Wed, 30 Oct 1996 06:02:07 +0100 Message-Id: <199610300502.AA03664@mail.math.TU-Berlin.DE> Received: from BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU by BROWNVM.brown.edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with BSMTP id 5523; Wed, 30 Oct 96 00:02:04 EST Received: from BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU (NJE origin LISTSERV@BROWNVM) by BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 8620; Wed, 30 Oct 1996 00:02:04 -0500 Date: Wed, 30 Oct 1996 00:01:59 -0500 Reply-To: Historic Costume List Sender: Historic Costume List From: Automatic digest processor Subject: H-COSTUME Digest - 28 Oct 1996 to 29 Oct 1996 To: Recipients of H-COSTUME digests There are 6 messages totalling 166 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. Italian Corsets (2) 2. 1630s suit/Cunningtons 3. Musicians' badges 4. Getting copies of your own messages 5. Getting your own postings ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 29 Oct 1996 15:54:30 +1000 From: Sarah Randles Subject: Re: Italian Corsets Margaret Rae Carignan wrote: >If you look at all the portraits of Eleanora by Bronzino (or school of), >they all look pretty flat and corseted to me. A broad survey of the >available evidence (pictoral mostly) suggests to me that come Italians >went corsetted, and some did not. Some bodices are as flat as a Spaniard's >and some have a definite curve. And some people (women) are as flat as a ... and some have a definate curve. Some people may have needed flattening or found it comfortable and some may not. For my two groats, I have made about half a dozen of the fifteenth century Italian dresses with front and/or side opening bodices. I interline with canvas, don't bone anywhere including down the lacing edges (spiral lacing eliminates the gap), and manage a pretty flat, wrinkle free (if I've cut the pattern right) bodice. I have an average size bust (C cup) but a narrow back and non existent shoulders, but I manage an effect that many people think is due to a corset (work of the devil). Of course my breasts are shoved up, down and sideways into my armpits, but it's actually pretty comfortable. The other advantage of using canvas as an interlining is that if you also use it when you fit the bodice, you get the same squashing effects you are going to get with the finished article. This is a distinct advantage over using a lighter weight fabric which will stretch, and can mean that you make up a bodice that you can't get into. Sarah ****************************************************************************** Sarah Randles email: s-randles@adfa.oz.au English Department phone: 06 268 8898 University College ADFA fax: 06 268 8899 Canberra ACT 2601 AUSTRALIA ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 29 Oct 1996 18:23:19 +0000 From: K.M.Bunting@DERBY.AC.UK Subject: 1630s suit/Cunningtons Sorry not to be more specific; my last message was sent in haste (I only have shared use of a PC). The book I alluded to is "Handbook of English costume in the seventeenth century" by C.Willett Cunnington and Phillis Cunnington. They wrote a whole series covering different periods, including contemporary quotations and illustrations. The 17c one has been published in the USA (Boston, Mass.: Plays, 1972, ISBN 0823801357) but I don't know if it's still in print. One of the Van Dyck portraits of Charles I shows him in a white satin doublet and red breeches - I imagine it was a matter of personal taste whether they were in matching fabric or not. Hope this helps. Kate Bunting (Library, University of Derby) (King's Lifeguard of Foote, SK) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 29 Oct 1996 18:48:39 +0000 From: K.M.Bunting@DERBY.AC.UK Subject: Musicians' badges Does anyone have any knowledge of the arm badges worn by actors and musicians belonging to Royal or noblemen's private companies in 16th-early 17th century England? I am told these were tied on with "rainbow ribbons" attached at the shoulder. A friend of mine is planning to start a musicians' guild within the Sealed Knot, and any information would be much appreciated. Kate Bunting (Library, University of Derby) (King's Lifeguard of Foote, SK) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 29 Oct 1996 14:11:08 -0600 From: Sheryl Nance-Durst Subject: Getting copies of your own messages A couple of weeks ago some people were wondering why they didn't get copies of their own postings. Well, I just found out how to set it so that you CAN get copies of your own messages sent to you when they are sent to the list. For those of that want this, just send a message saying " set h-costume repro " to the address: listserv@brownvm.brown.edu I just did this & got a computer-generated reply that seems to say that it worked. This will be my first posting to the list so it will be a test. I'm crossing my fingers! :) Sheryl J. Nance-Durst ...one of the secret masters of Kansas City MO Public Library the world: a librarian. They p_sheryl@kcpl.lib.mo.us control information. Don't ever p**s one off. - Spider Robinson, _The Callahan Touch_ (Opinions expressed in this message do not reflect the viewpoint of the Kansas City MO Public Library.) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 29 Oct 1996 15:22:59 -0800 From: Diana Habra Subject: Getting your own postings Hey everyone!! Sheryl's advice worked! I have received a confirmation from the listserv that I will now receive my own mail. You can too if you follow Sheryl's simple directions. BTW this was my test also. Keep up the chat! Rose ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 29 Oct 1996 18:40:22 -0600 From: Heather McGlaughlin Subject: Re: Italian Corsets >At 03:32 PM 10/28/96 -0800, you wrote: >>Dear Readers, >> >>I would have to agree with Dawn's comment that bodices were not really >>necessary to achieve the correct silhouette in Italian Rennaisance >>fashions. > >Are we talking early Renaissance or High Renaissance? Is there a difference. One of my reference books mentions the "paire of bodyes" (Can't remember all the details on that...the books are at home. Does anyone have details?? > >>I will have to comment that the first one I made was a back lace gown >>(diagonal lacings, of course) and was made out of a heavy upholstery >>fabric which gave much smoother lines without gapping. > >Could you please explain the diagonal lacings?? I was just planning to cut the back of the bodice down the middle, form a casing, then insert boning and grommets for lacing. > >>There again is my two cents. I hope to hear other comments and >>suggestions on this topic. >> >Thanks to all of you for your help. I have gotten some very useful ideas, and I finished sewing the pearls on the FRONT of the bodice last night (WHEW!!) It's coming along very nicely. > > Fiona > > Heather McGlaughlin fiona macLachlan Graduate Assistant Chatelaine Choral Activities/ Dept. of Music Shire of Hammerhold University of Mississippi Oxford, MS University, Mississippi 38677 (601) 281-0250 ------------------------------ End of H-COSTUME Digest - 28 Oct 1996 to 29 Oct 1996 **************************************************** From ???@??? Thu Oct 31 11:56:42 1996 Received: from brownvm.brown.edu by mail.math.TU-Berlin.DE with SMTP id AA11588 (5.67b8/IDA-1.5 for ); Thu, 31 Oct 1996 06:02:10 +0100 Message-Id: <199610310502.AA11588@mail.math.TU-Berlin.DE> Received: from BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU by BROWNVM.brown.edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with BSMTP id 7901; Thu, 31 Oct 96 00:00:40 EST Received: from BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU (NJE origin LISTSERV@BROWNVM) by BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 9296; Thu, 31 Oct 1996 00:00:39 -0500 Date: Thu, 31 Oct 1996 00:00:35 -0500 Reply-To: Historic Costume List Sender: Historic Costume List From: Automatic digest processor Subject: H-COSTUME Digest - 29 Oct 1996 to 30 Oct 1996 To: Recipients of H-COSTUME digests There are 24 messages totalling 797 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. cloth of gold (2) 2. Italian Corsets (2) 3. 16th century - to corset or not to corset (3) 4. Hennins 5. lacing 6. Cloth of Gold 7. 16th century - to corset or not to corset (Italian) (2) 8. getting copies of your own messages (2) 9. Cunningtons 10. King and I pants (2) 11. King and I Pants 12. New York Trip 13. New York Trip part two 14. CBC (fwd) 15. New York Trip part 3 16. Administrative stuff 17. 19th c. Hair - New book! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 30 Oct 1996 00:05:30 EST From: "Sandra J. Westergren" <74133.704@COMPUSERVE.COM> Subject: Re: cloth of gold Greetings I don't have the correct books in front of me, so turn to the knowledge of the list. When was cloth of gold first used? Was it in minor decoration or major parts of clothing? I seem to remember a reference to a cotehardie bi-coloured using velvet and cloth of silver. Hoping someone can help out, and thereby I give my thanks. Cassandra ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 29 Oct 1996 22:53:48 -0800 From: Diana Habra Subject: Re: Italian Corsets You wrote: > > Are we talking early Renaissance or High Renaissance? Is there a > difference. One of my reference books mentions the "paire of bodyes" (Can't > remember all the details on that...the books are at home. Does anyone have > details?? > I would have to say High Renaissance. As was mentioned previously on the list, early Italian Renaissance has a much softer look to it and was probably achieved without corsetry or rigid materials. I would also have to agree with Meg on this one. Whether or not a corset was used was probably an individual choice. Some of the paintings look like a corset was used and others don't. My point was it is POSSIBLE to do High Italian Renaissance WITHOUT having to use a corset. > Could you please explain the diagonal lacings?? I was just planning to cut > the back of the bodice down the middle, form a casing, then insert boning > and grommets for lacing. > If you can get ahold of the Janet Arnold book "Patterns of Fashion", there is a picture of the bodice from the Elenora of Toledo burial find (pages 40 & 41). It is a bodice with two diagonal lacings in the back. Forgive my bad artistry but I will try to illustrate for you: \ \ / / <--these are the bodice straps \ \----------/ / <--this is the back neckline \ \ / / \ \ / / <--the inside two lines are where the lacings are ) \ / ( I hope you can visualize with this drawing. What the diagonal lacing achieves is a fitted bodice without using darts or fancy footwork. If you can look further into the Janet Arnold book, you will find that the 16th century fashions in Italy and also in England use this as a prevalent fitting technique. Try it!! It works wonderfully! > Thanks to all of you for your help. I have gotten some very useful ideas, > and I finished sewing the pearls on the FRONT of the bodice last night > (WHEW!!) It's coming along very nicely. > > Fiona > I'm glad you are getting what you need. I have very much enjoyed this discussion, myself being a great fan of Italian Renaissance fashions. Please let me know if there is anything else I can help you with and I will try my best! Rose Also, congratulations on being so diligent on your sewing. I have yet to start my Burgundy velveteen Tudor gown. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Oct 1996 10:13:47 +0000 From: Maggie Percival Subject: 16th century - to corset or not to corset Hi everyone, >Margaret Rae Carignan wrote: >>If you look at all the portraits of Eleanora by Bronzino (or school of), >>they all look pretty flat and corseted to me. A broad survey of the >>available evidence (pictoral mostly) suggests to me that come Italians >>went corsetted, and some did not. Some bodices are as flat as a Spaniard's >>and some have a definite curve. > >And some people (women) are as flat as a ... and some have a definate >curve. Some people may have needed flattening or found it comfortable and >some may not. Can I just put in my bit here. I'm not very large - average height but on the petit side - and I went that way after I had my first child (I've had another one since and I'm still petit). I have made 1490/1500 style costumes for myself and am still in the process of making a 1540s Tudor (one day I'll get round to finishing it). I do not need a corset to make myself look flat. I have succeeded in getting that effect by a well fitted gown which has no stiffening in it of any sort - not even canvas, although I have used canvas in other gowns. > >For my two groats, I have made about half a dozen of the fifteenth century >Italian dresses with front and/or side opening bodices. I interline with >canvas, don't bone anywhere including down the lacing edges (spiral lacing >eliminates the gap), and manage a pretty flat, wrinkle free (if I've cut >the pattern right) bodice. This is exactly what I have found doing a similar thing - although I'll admit that I've never had problems with gaps in lacing edges whether they are spiral laced or not. Maggie Percival ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Oct 1996 11:02:20 -0500 From: Gaelscot@AOL.COM Subject: Hennins Recent discussions of hennins have led me to a discovery. About a year ago when the subject came up, I reported seeing numerous illuminations of other sorts of women's headgear, of the same period, with the characteristic little black forehead loop. This led me to wonder whether the loop was connected to a cap under the hennin, and not the hennin itself. No one seems to know. Well, the "June" illustration in 1997's Medieval Women calendar shows something really interesting! The picture is a "tree of consanguinity" from a 1471 French manuscript. Numerous women in various headgear (and dress styles) are shown. One is wearing a sort of fez with the little forehead loop -- and one has no hat on at all. Apparently a young girl, she is wearing her hair in a single ponytail. A black band covers her hairline -- and IT'S got the forehead loop. That's right, all by itself. Now, I don't want to leap to conclusions on the basis of one picture, and I don't have the time to do a lot of library research right now. But is it possible that the loop is just something connected to a hairband of some kind, and that various headgear was pinned to the hairband? The loop would help hold everything on. When I get a chance, I will experiment. Gail Finke/gaelscot@aol.com PS: For those interested, the reference is: MS Fr. 202, fol. 15v., Bibliotheque Nationale, Paris. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Oct 1996 11:28:33 -0500 From: Dawn Vukson-Van Beek Subject: Re: Italian Corsets On Mon, 28 Oct 1996 22:33:20 -0400 wrote... >Yes, I think we are all in agreement about pre-1500 Italian gowns not >requireing what we think of as a corset - a stiff, boned thing that makes >you flat. I have heard, however, that Italian costumes (such as the >giorino, the organ-pipe pleated gown like in Lotto's "Man and Woman at a >Casement" was worn over a PADDED underbodice (padded with bundles of reeds >laid horizontally). I can't remember where I heard this, but I have yet to >see a reference to it in print. We should also remember that not all >"corsets" are boned, but are merely foundation garments that make a shape, >whether rounded or flattened, or whatever. I'm using the term corset to mean a foundation garment that is supplemented with more than fabric- i.e. reeds, boning, busks, etc. I do agree that a foundation bodice of stiff fabric was used, as the one Eleanora was buried in. >As to Eleanora of Toledo, two things. Yes she was Spanish, but lived in >Italy, and probably wore Italian fashion (perhaps with a little Spanish >twist). She was also, not surprisingly, dead when she was buried (or at >least, we like to assume this), and therefore might have lost some weight >before she died. She certainly wouldn't have needed as much corset as a >live, healthy woman! Yes, I'm sure she lost weight as she died of Malaria, so it is possible they used something other than her usual garments. >If you look at all the portraits of Eleanora by Bronzino (or school of), >they all look pretty flat and corseted to me. A broad survey of the >available evidence (pictoral mostly) suggests to me that come Italians >went corsetted, and some did not. Some bodices are as flat as a Spaniard's >and some have a definite curve. I really can't go simply by profile in portraiture. My scientific nature won't allow it as a definitive answer. I don't think that a painter would add garments elements that aren't there to a painting (seams, closures, etc.) But almost all portraitist are not going to add overtly unattractive elements to a painting (with possible the exeception of Holbein). It's still done in media today. If Eleanora had fat rolls around her middle, they would not have been painted. If the ideal is to emulate a Spanish Bodice, the artist would paint that profile. I believe they are limited to a certain extent by a recognizable realism, but still must paint their patron/patroness in a favorable light. >As far as farthingales are concerned, Kohler states that Italians didn't >wear them, but wore instead "stiffened petticoats". What is the >difference, pray tell? Again, some dresses look loose and "flowy" and some >are certainly conical. I would again go by my desciption of corsets- a farthingale being a foundation garment supplemented by other than fabric- reeds, bone, cane, rope, etc. I would think a "petticoat" stiffened by some means- a glue or starch isn't the same thing. I don't think this can be conclusively resolved without a period reference or an extant italian corset. Until that, we are limited to theory. I am re-constructing the dress Eleanora wore in two portraits by Bronzino- the beautiful white satin with gold and black velvet brocade. I am not re-creating the exact fabric, but am attempting to duplicate the lines and details (partlet, snood, jewelry) I plan to enter this in this Spring's SCA Art's & Sciences competition. I will add pictures of the finished dress to my website on Eleanora. I welcome all comments and questions. Keep 'em in stitches! Dawn %%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%% Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely. *...broad, wholesome, charitable views... can not be acquired by vegetating in one's little corner of the earth. Mark Twain, _Innocents Abroad_, 1869 Dona Lucia Porzia Sforza di Firenze, modernly known as Dawn Vukson-Van Beek vukso001@tc.umn.edu http://www.tc.umn.edu/nlhome/g080/vukso001/dawn/home.html %%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%% ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Oct 1996 11:47:03 -0500 From: Gretchen M Beck Subject: Re: 16th century - to corset or not to corset >>If you look at all the portraits of Eleanora by Bronzino (or school of), >>they all look pretty flat and corseted to me. A broad survey of the >>available evidence (pictoral mostly) suggests to me that come Italians >>went corsetted, and some did not. Some bodices are as flat as a Spaniard's >>and some have a definite curve. > No to mention, that the burial clothes included the bodice in white satin AND a pair of bodies (i.e. a corset) in red velvet. toodles, gretchen ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Oct 1996 11:58:15 -0500 From: Gaelscot@AOL.COM Subject: lacing In reply to the lacing question: I don't know what "diagonal lacing" is. But there is a definite difference in the fit and appearance of a garment that is laced crosswise (like we do our shoes) and from the bottom up, like a spiral. With spiral lacing, the two edges of your garment end up much closer together -- assuming, of course, that you want them that way. You can certainly lace more loosely. At least for all the medieval and Italian Renaissance garments I have ever seen, this is the correct way to lace. Is it a pain to do? Yes. You tie the lace to the bottom hole and just keep spiraling up. Tie again at the top. Be careful not to miss a hole! If you are a woman with a B-size or bigger bust, lacing a very tight-fitting cotehardie, you'll probably want to do it in front of a mirror because you will not be to see. It takes a while but it looks great and is very comfortable. It's one of those little details that makes a huge difference in appearance -- like not tying your points in bows. Make a loop! That doesn't make much sense without a picture, but just take a good look at any picture of tied points and you will see what I mean. Gail Finke/gaelscot@aol.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Oct 1996 09:19:03 -0800 From: "R.L. Shep" Subject: Re: cloth of gold Sandra J. Westergren wrote: > > Greetings > > I don't have the correct books in front of me, so turn to the knowledge > of the list. > > When was cloth of gold first used? Was it in minor decoration or major > parts of clothing? I seem to remember a reference to a cotehardie bi-coloured > using velvet and cloth of silver. > > Hoping someone can help out, and thereby I give my thanks. > > Cassandra I do not find any reference to this in the standard costume dictionaries I have. BUT there is a description of the "Field of the Cloth of Gold" in "The Art of Needle-Work" by the Countess of Wilton. This event was the historic meeting between Henry VIII of England and Frances I of France in 1520. The event was so named because of the splendor of the dress and because so much cloth of gold was used. Obviously the actual product has to have been invented before this event. "And the tent itself, the nucleus of the show, the point where the "brother" kings were to confer, was hung round with cloth of gold" the posts, the cones, the cords, the tents, were all of the same precious metal,which glittered here in such excessive profusion as to give that title to the meeting which has superseded all others..." ~!~ R.L. Shep ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Oct 1996 12:19:29 -0500 From: Roxy Barber Subject: Re: 16th century - to corset or not to corset To insert my two cents worth -- It would seem to me that IF most women were corseted, then to portray a woman of the era the 'actor' should also be corseted in order make the same movements they would have. Also if flat chested was 'in fashion' and if you are portraying a woman of fashion you should be flat too. Roxy Barber ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Oct 1996 09:38:55 -0800 From: "R.L. Shep" Subject: Cloth of Gold I did turn up a further reference to this in the "Glossary of Materials" in " A Dictionary of English Costume 900-1900" by Cunnington & Beard, as follows: "CLOTH OF GOLD. Med. A very rich fabric woven of flat threads of gold." It certainly does not date it well saying it is Medieval. But at least it gives more information on the cloth itself. ~!~ R.L. Shep ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Oct 1996 13:30:01 -0500 From: Dawn Vukson-Van Beek Subject: Re: 16th century - to corset or not to corset (Italian) On Wed, 30 Oct 1996 11:47:03 -0500 gretchen wrote... >>>If you look at all the portraits of Eleanora by Bronzino (or school of), >>>they all look pretty flat and corseted to me. A broad survey of the >>>available evidence (pictoral mostly) suggests to me that come Italians >>>went corsetted, and some did not. Some bodices are as flat as a >>>Spaniard's and some have a definite curve. >>> >Not to mention, that the burial clothes included the bodice in white >satin AND a pair of bodies (i.e. a corset) in red velvet. I don't argue there is a bodice used to achieve the silhouette- I believe the question is whether or not it is boned/aupplemented other than fabric. I define a corset as a foundation garment that has support other than fabric-, i.e. bones, stays, reeds, busks, etc. A bodice would not be other than stiff(ened) fabric(s). I would not call the bodice in the burial clothes a "pair of bodies" or corset. Just my two lira... Lucia %%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%% Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely. *...broad, wholesome, charitable views... can not be acquired by vegetating in one's little corner of the earth. Mark Twain, _Innocents Abroad_, 1869 Dona Lucia Porzia Sforza di Firenze, modernly known as Dawn Vukson-Van Beek vukso001@tc.umn.edu http://www.tc.umn.edu/nlhome/g080/vukso001/dawn/home.html %%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%% ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Oct 1996 12:38:12 -0600 From: Sheryl Nance-Durst Subject: Re: getting copies of your own messages Well, it worked! I got a copy of my own posting just like I was supposed to! :) Yippee! (It takes so little to make me happy.) Sheryl J. Nance-Durst ...one of the secret masters of Kansas City MO Public Library the world: a librarian. They p_sheryl@kcpl.lib.mo.us control information. Don't ever p**s one off. - Spider Robinson, _The Callahan Touch_ (Opinions expressed in this message do not reflect the viewpoint of the Kansas City MO Public Library.) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Oct 1996 13:42:53 -0500 From: Gretchen M Beck Subject: Re: 16th century - to corset or not to corset (Italian) Excerpts from mail: 30-Oct-96 Re: 16th century - to corse.. Dawn V. Beek@gold.tc.umn (1501*) > I don't argue there is a bodice used to achieve the silhouette- I > believe the question is whether or not it is boned/aupplemented other > than fabric. I define a corset as a foundation garment that has support > other than fabric-, i.e. bones, stays, reeds, busks, etc. A bodice > would not be other > than stiff(ened) fabric(s). I would not call the bodice in the burial > clothes a "pair of bodies" or corset. I believe (though I'll have to check) that the red velvet bodice WAS boned with reeds. Course my copy of PoF is at home.... toodles, gretchen ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Oct 1996 15:02:25 -0500 From: Stacey_Weinberger_at_WADSWORTH.WADSWORTH@CABELSMTP.WADSWORTH.COM Subject: Cunningtons New Text Item: 1630s suit/Cunningtons Does anyone know if these books are still in print? I'd like to get a hold of the 19th C one. Thank you! Stacey stacey_weinberger@wadsworth.com ______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________ Subject: 1630s suit/Cunningtons Author: K.M.Bunting@derby.ac.uk @ BelmontSMTP at NOTES_DIRECTORY Date: 10/29/96 6:23 PM Sorry not to be more specific; my last message was sent in haste (I only have shared use of a PC). The book I alluded to is "Handbook of English costume in the seventeenth century" by C.Willett Cunnington and Phillis Cunnington. They wrote a whole series covering different periods, including contemporary quotations and illustrations. The 17c one has been published in the USA (Boston, Mass.: Plays, 1972, ISBN 0823801357) but I don't know if it's still in print. One of the Van Dyck portraits of Charles I shows him in a white satin doublet and red breeches - I imagine it was a matter of personal taste whether they were in matching fabric or not. Hope this helps. Kate Bunting (Library, University of Derby) (King's Lifeguard of Foote, SK) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Oct 1996 12:34:24 -0800 From: Susan Fatemi Subject: King and I pants Hi Elizabeth -- I rewatched the movie recently and taped it as I also would like to recreate the jacket at least. I believe the "pants" are patterned after the Indian dhoti, which is a wrapped garment (like a diaper) not sewn. The costume pants may have been sewn for ease of dressing, but made to look like dhoti. I'm sorry I don't know of any resource off hand to tell you how to do it. I also don't know if they are actually appropriate for a King of Siam, but it made a great costume. (Irene Sharaff was the designer by the way) So, have you figured out how the sari fabric was pieced so the gold hem design would work?? Susan Fatemi susanf@eerc.berkeley.edu >Date: Mon, 28 Oct 1996 16:37:09 -0500 >From: "Elizabeth J. Poole" >Subject: Yul Brynner's _King And I_ pants > >I can make a reasonable costume approximation of the Yul Brynner >_King And I_ coat pattern very easily. Can anyone here tell me >the correct name of the siamese pants he wears, or, failing that, >at least point me to some pattern that approximates them? > >My thanks in advance, >cheers, ejp >-------- >Elizabeth Poole ejp@watson.ibm.com > ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Oct 1996 18:01:04 -0500 From: Stacey_Weinberger_at_WADSWORTH.WADSWORTH@CABELSMTP.WADSWORTH.COM Subject: Re: King and I pants New Text Item: King and I pants I think Folkwear might have a pattern that would work. I can't tell you which one, but when I was at AlterYears this weekend I saw a pattern that fits that description. Good luck! Stacey ______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________ Subject: King and I pants Author: susanf@EERC.BERKELEY.EDU (Susan Fatemi) @ BelmontSMTP at NOTES_DIRECTORY Date: 10/30/96 12:34 PM Hi Elizabeth -- I rewatched the movie recently and taped it as I also would like to recreate the jacket at least. I believe the "pants" are patterned after the Indian dhoti, which is a wrapped garment (like a diaper) not sewn. The costume pants may have been sewn for ease of dressing, but made to look like dhoti. I'm sorry I don't know of any resource off hand to tell you how to do it. I also don't know if they are actually appropriate for a King of Siam, but it made a great costume. (Irene Sharaff was the designer by the way) So, have you figured out how the sari fabric was pieced so the gold hem design would work?? Susan Fatemi susanf@eerc.berkeley.edu >Date: Mon, 28 Oct 1996 16:37:09 -0500 >From: "Elizabeth J. Poole" >Subject: Yul Brynner's _King And I_ pants > >I can make a reasonable costume approximation of the Yul Brynner >_King And I_ coat pattern very easily. Can anyone here tell me >the correct name of the siamese pants he wears, or, failing that, >at least point me to some pattern that approximates them? > >My thanks in advance, >cheers, ejp >-------- >Elizabeth Poole ejp@watson.ibm.com > ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Oct 1996 19:02:54 -0500 From: Stacey_Weinberger_at_WADSWORTH.WADSWORTH@CABELSMTP.WADSWORTH.COM Subject: King and I Pants I think Folkwear might have a pattern that would work. I can't tell you which one, but when I was at AlterYears this weekend I saw a pattern that fits that description. Good luck! Stacey ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Oct 1996 16:18:27 -0800 From: Carole Newson-Smith Subject: New York Trip I was in New York City early last week, and had one day on my own. First I went to Ulster Linen Co. (they have changed their name a little) at 148 Madison Avenue and 32nd and talked to them about purchasing linen yardage. I told them I was interested in light weight even weaves, and they have a few to select from. Generally they don't want to sell less than 25 yards, so they charge a $20 cutting charge for smaller lengths. As recently reported, it is possible to spend as little as $10 for a yard. They carry a 1000 count linen that is 36" wide for that amount. It comes in 45" and 60" wide, as well. They also have 1200 count and 1300 count in a couple of those widths. Also there is a very slightly heavier weight called cambric, which they recommend for shirts. They are very nice people. In fact, the fellow who waited on me has a brother who is in an American Civil War group, so he understood. I've misplaced his card, unfortunately, but I still have their phone number if someone wants to call them. It's 212-684-5534. Carole Newson-Smith ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Oct 1996 16:25:51 -0800 From: Carole Newson-Smith Subject: New York Trip part two While I was wandering around Manhattan last Monday, I also went to the fabled Greenberg and Hammer. They had a catalog lying out, and a lady behind the counter was nice enough to show me what spring steel boning is like. Since I used flat metal boning in the one Ren Faire bodice I've made, it's nice to know what the other style is like. >From the small size of their store, I'd guess that much of their business is mail order. Everyhing in the store was something I could get at home, so I didn't buy anything there. I remember reading about Joseph Eidelman, an importer of ecclesiastic trims and fabrics, and thought this company was located in Manhattan, but they aren't in the phone book, so I have no report on this company. Carole Newson-Smith ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Oct 1996 19:22:26 -0500 From: "Penny E. Ladnier" Subject: Re: getting copies of your own messages At 12:38 PM 10/30/96 -0600, you wrote: I followed the directions for doing this and got back a message that I am not a member of the list. This sure is strange since I get posts from the group every day. What's up? >Well, it worked! I got a copy of my own posting just like I was >supposed to! :) Yippee! > Penny E. Ladnier, Virginia Commonwealth University s0peladn@erols.com http://www.geocities.com/BourbonStreet/2157 "If it is out there, I'll find it..." ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Oct 1996 19:27:29 -0500 From: Sharon and/or Mikie Subject: CBC (fwd) >Date: Wed, 30 Oct 1996 16:51:27 -0500 (EST) >From: "b. garcia" >X-Sender: bgarcia@panther.uwo.ca >To: techies@idirect.com >Subject: CBC (fwd) > > > >*************************** > > >The following message was received from Betty Brightwell. >This is a petition to SAVE CBC NATIONAL RADIO. > >Will you sign it and forward it to others? > > >*************************** > >This is a petition to SAVE CBC NATIONAL RADIO, particularly the news & >analysis programs (programs such as IDEAS, MORNINGSIDE, AS IT HAPPENS, >ETC.) > > >PLEASE JUST ADD YOUR NAME TO THE LIST AT THE BOTTOM, THEN FORWARD IT TO >EVERYONE YOU KNOW OR HAVE CONTACT WITH. > >IF YOU ARE THE 50TH, 100TH, 150TH TO SIGN PLEASE E-MAIL THE LIST TO >bbright@pinc.com and I WILL PRINT THE MESSAGE AND SEND IT OFF TO PERRIN >BEATTY WHO IS RESPONSIBLE FOR THE CBC. > > >HOPEFULLY WE CAN SUCCEED IN KEEPING THE BEST PROGRAMS ON CBC RADIO FROM >BEING CUT. > > >THANK YOU. > > >The following citizens oppose further cuts to National CBC Radio programming:i > >1. Betty Brightwell, Victoria, B.C. >2. Alison Acker, Victoria, B.C. >3. Ria Bos, Victoria, B.C. >4. Anita Bundy, Victoria, B.C. >5. Maryanne Campeau, Victoria, B.C. >6. Freda Knott, Victoria, B.C. >7. Inger Kronseth, Victoria, B.C. >8. Joyce Lee, Victoria, B.C. >9. Bess Ready, Victoria, B.C. >10. Fran Thoburn, Victoria, B.C. >11. Mary Rose, Victoria, B.C. >12. Grace Tickson, Victoria, B.C. >13. ernie yacub, cumberland, b.c. >14. Joyce Lydiard >15. Nichola Hall, Vancouver >16. Wilma Sharp, Vancouver >17. Nyree Sharp >18. Barbara von Tigerstrom >19. Kristan McLeod, Edmonton, AB >20. Shawn Muldrew, Edmonton, AB >21. Graham McLeod, Montreal, PQ >22. Sean Muggah, Montreal, PQ >23. Liz Muggah, Hamilton, ONT >24. Dave Seglins, Halifax, NS >25. James Fotheringham, Oxford, UK >26. Monica Kidd, Kingston, ON >27. Dustin Hunter, Kingston, ON >28. Deborah Cividino, Kingston, ON >29. Rick Henderson, Waterloo, ON >30. Spencer Webster, Waterloo, ON >31. Megan Ollivier, Waterloo, ON >32. Alayne Fulton, Waterloo, ON >33. Carolyn Hoskin, Waterloo, ON >34. Luis-Manuel Garcia, London, ON >35. Sharon Drummond, Toronto, ON 36. Mike Kovacic, Toronto, ON > ***************************** * * * DON'T MESS WITH TECHIES - * * * * THEY ALL CARRY KNIVES * * * ***************************** ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Oct 1996 16:39:43 -0800 From: Carole Newson-Smith Subject: New York Trip part 3 The best part of my excursion to Manhattan's garment district on was West 39th street. I wandered in and out of a number of shops at street level, and about the fifth one I went into had some really spectacular fabrics in the back. I bought three yards of a really gorgeous red and metallic gold brocade and had it shipped back to California, so no sales tax and I didn't have to carry it. Then I went to La Lame Importers. They are upstairs and you have to get buzzed in. Once inside, they are very relaxed and nice. There are photographs of church altars and priests garb that they have sold all over the country. I was only looking for trims, so the man pointed me to three different walls and let me look to my heart's content. I ended up buying several yards of three different trims that weren't obviously religious in theme. A word to the wise: if you ever go there, take cash. They sweeten the deal a little bit if you do. But don't take too much cash, because they have fabulous fabrics and trims, and it would be extremely easy to go completely wild in the place. Carole Newson-Smith ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Oct 1996 17:37:36 -0800 From: Frances Grimble Subject: Administrative stuff No offense, but would it be possible to keep messages relating to the h-costume list server off the main mailing list? It seems to me that if you are having trouble getting copies of messages to yourself, the correct and effective procedure would be to consult the list maintainer. And I would really like to see non-costume-related spams kept off the list. Fran Grimble ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Oct 1996 23:02:53 -0500 From: EGerds@AOL.COM Subject: Re: 19th c. Hair - New book! In a message dated 96-10-24 09:17:57 EDT, dloberger@ESRI.COM (Dale Loberger) writes: << I just got a notice from Harper House that, among other things, a new book entitled "The Techniques of Ladies Hairdressing of the 19th. C." is available. It is subtitled, "A compilation of original 19th c. sources by Mark Campbell and Mons. A. Mallemont, edited by Jules & Kaethe Kliot." >> Jules & Kaethe run Lacis and they are the publishers of this book. You can get it from them as well as Harper House and AlterYears. (It came into the store last week and looks great!) Liz Gerds ------------------------------ End of H-COSTUME Digest - 29 Oct 1996 to 30 Oct 1996 ****************************************************