From ???@??? Mon Dec 02 10:27:59 1996 Received: from brownvm.brown.edu by mail.math.TU-Berlin.DE with SMTP id AA25720 (5.67b8/IDA-1.5 for ); Sun, 1 Dec 1996 06:01:13 +0100 Message-Id: <199612010501.AA25720@mail.math.TU-Berlin.DE> Received: from BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU by BROWNVM.brown.edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with BSMTP id 5572; Sun, 01 Dec 96 00:00:23 EST Received: from BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU (NJE origin LISTSERV@BROWNVM) by BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 1464; Sun, 1 Dec 1996 00:00:23 -0500 Date: Sun, 1 Dec 1996 00:00:21 -0500 Reply-To: Historic Costume List Sender: Historic Costume List From: Automatic digest processor Subject: H-COSTUME Digest - 29 Nov 1996 to 30 Nov 1996 To: Recipients of H-COSTUME digests There are 4 messages totalling 89 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. Cotehardies 2. *CORRECTION* (Was Cotehardies) 3. T-Tunics. 4. Clothing on fire (was: flame retardency) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 30 Nov 1996 00:44:52 -0500 From: ERICA DANIELLE STEVENS Subject: Re: Cotehardies I've been very pleased (though I'll admit a little overwhelmed) by this topic since I've recently become interested in 14th century costuming. I am hastily gobbling up all this information and I've seen references to lots of sources. To those of you who seem to have some expertise in this area, is there a list of sources you'd recommend to a newcomer? I'd really like to make some accurate replicas of this era and any help would be appreciated. Erica Stevens ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 30 Nov 1996 00:08:36 -0600 From: "I. Marc Carlson" Subject: *CORRECTION* (Was Cotehardies) <"I. Marc Carlson" > >...If I may alter your picture slightly (based on Borlund, page 102, fig. 63) >... Let's try making that *Norlund* ("Buried Norsemen at Herjolfsnes: an Archaeological and Historical Study" P. Norlund. In _Meddelelser om Gronland. Bind LXVII. Kobenhavn: C.A. Reitzel, Boghandel, 1924.) For what it's worth, what Kohler showes on pgs 158-9 (figs 187-90) are Herjolfnses nos. 38 and 43 (as well as no.76, the hood). The dotted line shown between the two rear side gores is a false seam. The fact that paintings exist that show seams is interesting to me, since both of these details suggest that it was somehow stylish to use smaller bits of fabric, and to show that you did so. Marc Carlson ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 30 Nov 1996 12:18:49 -0600 From: "Rachel E. Mast" Subject: T-Tunics. It's been sometime but I offered a copy of my T-Tunic pattern to several people. Well I lost the list of addresses so if you could re-send them to me I'll have them sent out soon. I'm sorry for keeping you waiting so long Sorry about that Rachel ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 18 Nov 1996 13:52:38 -0500 From: Sharon and/or Mikie Subject: Re: Clothing on fire (was: flame retardency) Remove clothing that has been soaked >in hot fat or burning water immediately (with scissors, if possible). I had to post my own experience verifying this point. I used to be a manager at Burger King (stop laughing, I was in high school) One night I was preparing to clean out a fryer, and I dropped cover into the hot grease. It splashed on my legs, covering me from my lower hip to just above the knee. Of course, our uniforms were made of polyester. Knowing that the polyester would melt I took off my pants immediately (to the surprise of my entirely male crew...) before the grease melted the polyester, or reached my skin. I ended up with very minor burns-no more than very red itchy skin - no blistering! I went to the hospital anyways, just in case, and I was told by the doctor that this is the best possible thing that could be done. One more thing...DO NOT put ice on a burn...another BK experience taught me that... Sharon > ***************************** * * * DON'T MESS WITH TECHIES - * * * * THEY ALL CARRY KNIVES * * * ***************************** ------------------------------ End of H-COSTUME Digest - 29 Nov 1996 to 30 Nov 1996 **************************************************** From ???@??? Mon Dec 02 10:28:01 1996 Received: from brownvm.brown.edu by mail.math.TU-Berlin.DE with SMTP id AA29186 (5.67b8/IDA-1.5 for ); Mon, 2 Dec 1996 06:01:38 +0100 Message-Id: <199612020501.AA29186@mail.math.TU-Berlin.DE> Received: from BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU by BROWNVM.brown.edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with BSMTP id 5989; Mon, 02 Dec 96 00:00:52 EST Received: from BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU (NJE origin LISTSERV@BROWNVM) by BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 4248; Mon, 2 Dec 1996 00:00:52 -0500 Date: Mon, 2 Dec 1996 00:00:50 -0500 Reply-To: Historic Costume List Sender: Historic Costume List From: Automatic digest processor Subject: H-COSTUME Digest - 30 Nov 1996 to 1 Dec 1996 To: Recipients of H-COSTUME digests There are 4 messages totalling 90 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. Hoop wire 2. Various Questions (2) 3. Dolls ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 1 Dec 1996 08:49:00 -0700 From: Karen Lovejoy Subject: Hoop wire A friend asked me if there was any place, particularly here in Seattle where she can get wide, about 1-2" solid metal hoop wire. She is making a costume for Mother Ginger in Nutcracker and needs something very strong and sturdy to hold up the fabric and handle the hieght required. Thanks for any help. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 1 Dec 1996 11:47:55 -0800 From: Alison Kondo Subject: Various Questions I have a couple of unrelated questions I wondered if folks could help me with... When did little boys stop wearing short pants? I don't mean what age they graduated to long pants, but when the custom of starting boys out in knee pants stopped. What colour is marron or marron glace? I run across a lot of references to this in the 1920's & am guessing it's reddish brown. Am I correct? Non historical question: Does anyone know what brands of good costume jewelry are popular in Japan right now? In the 1980's "Monet" was very popular, etc. My mom has to send a gift & wants to get the right thing. Alison ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 1 Dec 1996 19:29:22 -0500 From: Jim and Angela Burnley Subject: Re: Dolls Subject: Re: Dolls Carol Kocian asked in her posting if others had made dolls for their children to use at events. Several years ago, my son asked for a doll just like him. Striving for something that would be correct for him to have at events I made a cloth doll that was jointed by stitching. I stuffed mine with poly for lack of lamb's wool. I painted the face and all exposed parts of the body. I added combed flax stitched onto his head for hair and then dressed him in completely hand stitched 1750's clothing. All clothing was removable and made of either linen or wool. I even found some small pewter buttons. Caleb fell in love with him and named him Joshua. He has slept with him since and taken him to all our events. This past year he was presented with a little girl doll made in the same manner. She is dressed in shift, cap, pocket, shortgown, petticoat and apron. I even made very small brass pins to close her shortgown properly. I enjoyed making them immensely and am now considering taking a wooden carved doll and making up some of Janet Arnold's patterns to make her a proper fashion doll. (in my spare time of course!) Regards, Angela Burnley jasburn@aol.com PS For those of you interested in dolls and the 18th century, Colonial Williamsburg owns a wonderful fashion doll complete with clothing and accessories. It is featured in Linda Baumgarten's book as well. >> ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 1 Dec 1996 17:49:36 -0800 From: Frances Grimble Subject: Re: Various Questions Alison Kondo wrote: > > I have a couple of unrelated questions I wondered > if folks could help me with... > > When did little boys stop wearing short pants? I > don't mean what age they graduated to long pants, but when > the custom of starting boys out in knee pants stopped. > My father, who was born in 1925, was made by his mother to wear knickers. He hated it because it was old-fashioned--the other boys had short pants, which he says were not the same thing. I think he said the knickers were shorter than the short pants, and in winter he got colder. Fran Grimble ------------------------------ End of H-COSTUME Digest - 30 Nov 1996 to 1 Dec 1996 *************************************************** From ???@??? Wed Dec 04 15:29:46 1996 Received: from brownvm.brown.edu by mail.math.TU-Berlin.DE with SMTP id AA24241 (5.67b8/IDA-1.5 for ); Wed, 4 Dec 1996 06:02:08 +0100 Message-Id: <199612040502.AA24241@mail.math.TU-Berlin.DE> Received: from BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU by BROWNVM.brown.edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with BSMTP id 1094; Wed, 04 Dec 96 00:01:04 EST Received: from BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU (NJE origin LISTSERV@BROWNVM) by BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 0507; Wed, 4 Dec 1996 00:00:46 -0500 Date: Wed, 4 Dec 1996 00:00:38 -0500 Reply-To: Historic Costume List Sender: Historic Costume List From: Automatic digest processor Subject: H-COSTUME Digest - 2 Dec 1996 to 3 Dec 1996 To: Recipients of H-COSTUME digests There are 20 messages totalling 558 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. La vie des enfants au Moyen Age 2. Various Questions 3. Short Trousers 4. Knickers (2) 5. short pants 6. Changing your subscription 7. Britex Pattern Sale (2) 8. knickers (3) 9. H-COSTUME Digest - 30 Nov 1996 to 1 Dec 1996 (2) 10. Short pants/knickers (2) 11. Cotehardies (long) 12. another question: lederhosen (2) 13. corset sizes again ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 2 Dec 1996 23:15:55 -0600 From: "Sara J. Davitt" Subject: La vie des enfants au Moyen Age Greetings!.. The search for French Texts led me to a wonderful little book,(The life of Children in the Middle Ages) that I had picked up on a whim... I hadn't really looked at it fully, until now, and I realized what a good source it was for costume!... it had many illuminations, and the like... So, I will scan them in, and mail them, or if someone has homepage room for them, just let me know if this interests any of you... And I will do it... take Care everyone, Sarahj ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 3 Dec 1996 00:09:26 -0500 From: Jafath@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Various Questions In a message dated 96-12-01 14:51:42 EST, kondoa@UCS.ORST.EDU (Alison Kondo) writes: << When did little boys stop wearing short pants? I don't mean what age they graduated to long pants, but when the custom of starting boys out in knee pants stopped. >> About 1950, when our church sponsored a relocating German family, the boy (then about 11) wore short pants (until his family, very speedily, Americanized). This is the only thing I know about that . . . Jo Anne ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 3 Dec 1996 09:00:00 GMT From: "Chandler, Sally A." Subject: Short Trousers I was born in 1961 and grew up in England. Boys wore shorts until they went to secondary school at the age of 11. Sally Ann Chandler s.a.chandler@shu.ac.uk ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 3 Dec 1996 11:07:00 GMT From: "Chandler, Sally A." Subject: Knickers Despite the fact that knickers were our undergarments - we also wore something called knickers for games lessons throughout the 70's (and of course - we were girls so this may not relate to Knickers for boys in another continent!) They were not the much loved thick blue things which we all wore under the school uniform (made of something like sweatshirting and worn for P.E, when we were younger) but black glazed cotton things - gathered onto a yoke, zip at the side, gathered legs about as short as they could be. I've never hated a garment more! Sally Ann Chandler@shu.ac.uk ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 3 Dec 1996 08:44:06 -0500 From: Gary Stephens Subject: Re: short pants Paul wrote: >Howeverm, I don't understand the reference about knickers being *shorter* than >short pants; I'd have expected the term "knickers" to denote a type of >breeches. When I went to private school, knickers refered to our underwear, and from the saying: don't get your knickers in a knot - I'd take that to mean don't get your underwear in a knot - a saying for which my grandmother was famous. According to Funk & Wagnals, knickers refers to a woman's or girl's undergarment, similar to bloomers. Perhaps the short pants refered to as knickers, actually refers to knicker-bockers, which were wide, short breeches gathered below the knee. Lorina J. Stephens author of _Touring the Giant's Rib_ & _Credit River Valley_ embroiderer, restorer, artist http://web.idirect.com/~canuck/stephens/stephen.html ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 3 Dec 1996 07:50:33 -0600 From: Carrie Bryant Subject: Re: Changing your subscription Carolyn and others: Here are the instructions I have regarding changing your subscription to the list: >For more information about subscription options, send a "QUERY H-COSTUME" >command to LISTSERV@BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU (or LISTSERV@BROWNVM.BITNET). Hope this helps. Carrie ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 3 Dec 1996 07:52:21 -0600 From: Carrie Bryant Subject: Re: Britex Pattern Sale Loren Dearborn wrote: >SF folks on this list might be interested to hear that > Britex is having their 50% off all patterns sale - I > discovered last time they did this that this INCLUDES > Folkwear Patterns. The sale runs from today thru Saturday. Where is Britex and what is there phone number? There are several Folkware patterns I need. Thanks. Carrie ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 3 Dec 1996 09:07:29 EST From: bglickman@ECKERT.ACADCOMP.MONROECC.EDU Subject: knickers S.A.Chandler@SHU.AC.UK 3-DEC-1996 wrote: Despite the fact that knickers were our undergarments - we also wore something called knickers for games lessons throughout the 70's (and of course - we were girls so this may not relate to Knickers for boys in another continent!) They were not the much loved thick blue things which we all wore under the school uniform (made of something like sweatshirting and worn for P.E, when we were younger) but black glazed cotton things - gathered onto a yoke, zip at the side, gathered legs about as short as they could be. I've never hated a garment more! ===================== I'd forgotten about "knickers" being undies - I have an English friend who's favorite phrase is "Don't get your knickers in a twist!" I love it and now mumble it all the time at anyone who ticks me off... MY knickers were bought for cross-country skiing: heavy corduroy (that chanted as I skiied -so much for sneaking up on wildlife...) that went to a velcro-ed cuff just below the knee, worn with nordic knee socks so that the skin is covered. We had a bar in town called "Knickers", and their sign showed a golfer wearing knickers and it was the same arrangement - socks up to the knee covered by the bottom cuff of the pants. NO knobby knees! Someone else mentioned the military wearing shorts - This summer both my male and female Mail Carriers wore nicely cut "bermuda shorts" in a medium blue with a navy stripe down the side, plus knee socks. (What's the purpose/function of the stripe? Don't tuxedo pants have them also??? There's a new discussion subject!!) Bonnie Glickman -------------------------------------------------|=|=|=|=|=|=|=|=|=|=|=|=|= Bonnie Glickman =|=|= "I'm NOT waiting Bio. Dept.; Monroe Comm. Coll. |=|=| until I'm old... Rochester, NY 14623 (716) 292-2725 =|=|= I'm wearing my email: bglickman@eckert.acadcomp.monroecc.edu |=|=| Purple NOW!!" -bg or GLICKMAN@mccvm.is.monroecc.edu =|=|=|=|=|=|=|=|=|=|=|=|=| ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 3 Dec 1996 07:00:54 -0800 From: Catnip Subject: Re: Britex Pattern Sale On Tue, 3 Dec 1996, Carrie Bryant wrote: {snip Britex Sale} > Where is Britex and what is there phone number? There are several Folkware > patterns I need. Britex is at 4601 Geary Street, San Francisco. Phone 415-392-2910. Sale hours are M,T,W,Sat. 9:30-6; TH 9:30-8:00 and Friday 9:30-7:00. Hope this helps :) - Dorothy ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 3 Dec 1996 10:01:35 -0600 From: Noelle Nicol Subject: Re: H-COSTUME Digest - 30 Nov 1996 to 1 Dec 1996 It occurs to me that over the past few years Lady Di's boys have been photographed by the "news" magazines (read: high-tone trash! =+} ) wearing short pants. I think it was about age eleven or twelve that they were finally seen in full-length trousers . . . . yours, Noelle ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 3 Dec 1996 12:54:33 -0500 From: Al De Santis Subject: Re: H-COSTUME Digest - 30 Nov 1996 to 1 Dec 1996 At 07:14 PM 12/2/96 -0500, you wrote: I think that short pants, in the north anyway, went out after WW II, although by the fifties men were beginning to wear shorts for casual wear (and as part of >military uniforms) in hot weather. Depends upon the country (do English boys >still have short pants as part of their uniforms?) and climate: everyone >wears shorts in the tropics. My son, born in '56, wore long pants in first >grade, but my brother, born '30 and '31, wore short pants until they began to >grow at 13 or so. Tess > All my cousins born in 1960 and later in scotland wore short pants at least until they were 9 or 10. Alexa Fletcher al.desantis@sympatico.ca ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 3 Dec 1996 18:11:19 +0000 From: K.M.Bunting@DERBY.AC.UK Subject: Short pants/knickers I have always understood that "knickers" in early 20th century usage was short for "Knickerbockers", which were so called after a Washington Irving character, an early Dutch settler in the US who wore knee breeches. The Oxford English Dictionary confirms this. The term superseded "drawers" for the women's undergarment, and (for the benefit of you Americans) is still commonly used colloquially in England for the modern equivalent. BTW, when I was in primary school in the 1950's the boys all wore short trousers. Kate Bunting Library, University of Derby ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 3 Dec 1996 14:37:07 -0500 From: Valerie Winkler Subject: Cotehardies (long) Greetings to the learned denizens of h-costume. As the 14th Century is the period I'm working in, I timidly offer my 2 cents' contribution: To Carol Newby and Erica Stevens, who asked (in essence) how to get started: If you can't find a commercial pattern that looks right to you, try Period Patterns #21, but be aware that unless they've changed it in the last 2 years, the sleeves are inaccurate (the seam should be at the back of the arm, and they give no indication how to make the opening for working buttons on the forearm), and the curves in the front and back seams near the neckline are 'way too pronounced. Even for full figured women, I have had to reduce them. In my experience, cotehardies for either sex always require individual fitting. A nifty modification to P.P.21 is to add gores in the front and back as well as at the sides, to add width and weight to the skirt. I have also modified McCall's 6052 (more later), but I had to make the bodice 2 sizes too small to get a close enough fit, and of course moved the sleeve seam. I think McCall's 7300 would work too, but haven't tried it yet. I would suggest you use wool (if you can wear it), velveteen, or a heavy silk for court garb. If cost is a problem, the velveteen may be your best choice. It drapes well, and the weight of opinion I've heard in the SCA (I'm sure the list will correct me if this is inaccurate) says cotton velveteen actually *looks* more "period" than nylon or rayon velvets. It is certainly easier to work with. I line my velveteen cotehardies with muslin so an underdress isn't needed in warm weather (it's not correct, but I can't take the heat). I am making underdresses ("kirtles"?) of china silk and of cotton damask for winter. The underdress is made on the same pattern as the overdress, but the overdress may have elbow-length sleeves with tippets in the early- or mid-14th c. The neckline seems to get wider the later in the century you go. To be completely correct, I think you should have a shift under the underdress. The Museum of London book on Dress Accessories shows a sleeveless one which looks like it would go under a dress with a fairly wide neckline. Cunnington's underwear book unfortunately isn't much help in this century. Regarding sources, I also suggest Newton (hard to find, and much more useful for materials used and period nomenclature than construction), Kohler, and the Museum of London books. I like Mary G. Houston, _Medieval Costume in England and France_, recently reprinted by Dover, ISBN 0486-29060-3. As for the books that seem to get pushed on SCA "newbies", I'd recommend staying away from Peacock and Braun & Schneider. Herbert Norris is good for an overall perspective of the times, but don't take his pictures too seriously. Regarding the discussion about whether princess-type seams (or the Herjolfsnes model) or the four-panel (Period Patterns 21) model are actually more correct: I don't see how this can be resolved in the absence of a larger number of extant garments. Almost everybody seems to reproduce or redraw Norlund's pattern diagram. However, period artwork may give a clue here, if you consider the impracticality of making an heraldic mi-parti cotehardie from Norlund's pattern! I would guess that, in whatever period, dressmakers did the same thing we do - use whatever type of pattern WORKS for what you want to achieve. For example, I will use P.P.21 for the heraldic I'm making this year, becase it makes it a lot easier to work in the heraldic decoration. But for dresses of all one color, where I wanted the extra fitting, fullness of skirt, and smooth drape the gores allow, I have also made the multi-gored model, for which I modified McCall's 6052. I found that when you extend the side pieces to the floor, the bottom is wider than the fabric, which REQUIRES you to cut the side front and side back in half and make 8 rather than 4 side pieces. I straightened the princess seam, so that it terminates at the neckline rather than the armhole. It works, but next time I think I'll move the curve over a bit and widen the central panel, more like the Norlund drawing, to see how that works. The shape of the gores turned out more like Chantal's drawing than either Susan's or Marc's. Hope this helps. Val Winkler (Kate Oakley) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 3 Dec 1996 09:29:08 EST From: bglickman@ECKERT.ACADCOMP.MONROECC.EDU Subject: another question: lederhosen In a message dated 96-12-01 14:51:42 EST, kondoa@UCS.ORST.EDU (Alison Kondo) writes: << When did little boys stop wearing short pants? I don't mean what age they graduated to long pants, but when the custom of starting boys out in knee pants stopped. >> Jo Anne (Jafath@AOL.COM) About 1950, when our church sponsored a relocating German family, the boy (then about 11) wore short pants (until his family, very speedily, Americanized). This is the only thing I know about that . . . ========================================================= >From Bonnie G. (me): What's the history of lederhosen? -the translation is "Leatherstocking" - is that the source of Cooper's Leatherstocking Tales - Are there "Lederhosen" that are long, or are they always shorts? Do they always have the bib and suspender straps? Danka! (I only know about 20 German words...) ("A fool can ask more questions than a wise man can answer."- I had a professor once who put that at the bottom of a difficult exam...) Bonnie G. -------------------------------------------------|=|=|=|=|=|=|=|=|=|=|=|=|= Bonnie Glickman =|=|= "I'm NOT waiting Bio. Dept.; Monroe Comm. Coll. |=|=| until I'm old... Rochester, NY 14623 (716) 292-2725 =|=|= I'm wearing my email: bglickman@eckert.acadcomp.monroecc.edu |=|=| Purple NOW!!" -bg or GLICKMAN@mccvm.is.monroecc.edu =|=|=|=|=|=|=|=|=|=|=|=|=| ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 3 Dec 1996 13:13:39 -0800 From: "R.L. Shep" Subject: Re: Short pants/knickers K.M.Bunting@DERBY.AC.UK wrote: > > I have always understood that "knickers" in early 20th century usage > was short for "Knickerbockers", I didn't realise that this discussion was going to include definitions of these items... but now that Ido I have resorted to "A Dictionary of English Costume 900-1900" by Cunnington. To be brief about it: KNICKERBOCKERS -1860 on (men) a loose form of breeches used for the Volunteers (whatever that may be) and used by civilians for country wear...etc The name derived from Washington Irving in 1808. KNICKERS - 1890s (women) an under-garment similar to knickerbockers but usually made of flannel or longecloth, and worn instead of drawers and often without a petticoat. DRAWERS - from 16th c. on (men and women) 1. Male essentially an under-garment and until the 19th c. usually of linen: a) short: knee-length or trunks cut full & square, tied in front with ribbon & pulled in behind by tapes over a short vent. worn until the end of the 19thc. b) long: ankle-length; some footed or with stirrup-band passing under the instep... lots more.... then... Long drawers in the 19th c. were known as 'trousers' or 'long pants'. 2. Female. from c 1806 at first similar in cut to the male garment but each leg separate or merely attached to the waistband...1806 "muslin drawers' ..1807 "patent elastic woollen drawers of stockinette' for riding... 1813 drawers with attached feet.... silk.. cotton..merino reaching below the knee and very full. Int he 1840s broderie anglaise trimming might be added. In the Crinoline period drawers of scarlett flannel were fashionable & often exposed to view. Often replaced by knickerbockers of scarlett or in the 1890 of grey flannel. From 1870 elaborately trimmed...(see combinations) 3) the term 'drawers' was occasionally loosely aplied in the 17th & 18th c's to any garment - such as breeches- which could be drawn on. {forgive the typos} ~!~ R.L. Shep ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 3 Dec 1996 16:29:06 -0800 From: Glenna Jo & Bill Christen Subject: Re: another question: lederhosen bglickman@ECKERT.ACADCOMP.MONROECC.EDU wrote: > ><< When did little boys stop wearing short pants? >>From Bonnie G. (me): What's the history of lederhosen? -the translation > is "Leatherstocking" While that is a logical assumption, the actual translation is leather trousers or pants. Stockings is "strumpf" in German "Strumpfhosen" is German for pantyhose. >Are there "Lederhosen" that are long, or are they always shorts? I very occasionally saw elderly men in southern Germany wearing the classic short lederhosen, bib and all. This garment is not just for little boys there. I more frequently saw men of similarly advanced age wearing below-the-knee "knickerbocker" type leather pants. It wasn't typical, but it was not all that unusual, especially among day hikers in Switzerland, etc. It appears to be more of a regional costume with practical applications for long, sturdy wear. I also offer my $.02 worth on when little boys stopped wearing short pants. At least in the US, it very likely may have been a family preference decision. For example, I have a number of photographs taken during the 1860's of very young boys (some just out of diapers!) wearing long pants as well as a number of boys who appear to be as old as 8 or even 9 in short pants... Glenna Jo Christen gwjchris@rust.net ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 3 Dec 1996 14:10:00 -0800 From: Elaine Pedersen Subject: Knickers In 1960 George Bush and Perry London wrote an article: "On the disappearance of knickers: Hypotheses for the functional analysis of the psychology of clothing"; it is currently published in DRESS AND IDENTITY, edited by Mary Ellen Roach-Higgins, Joanne B. Eicher, & Kim K. P. Johnson, Fairchild Publications. In that article Bush and London state that knickers disapperd from "the American scene" between the 1930s and early 1940s. They state that "it was possible, until the beginning of the Second World War, to distinguish most American boys younger than six or seven from those between the ages of seven and puberty, in that those in their preschool years generally wore shorts, while those in grammar school wore knickers. It was further possible to distinguish the prepubescent boy from the adolescent on a similar basis, namely the former's wearing of knickers and the latter's wearing of long trousers. . . . differences in trousers were used as a means of differentiating one stage of development from another, this change having something of the import of a rite de passage" (p. 109, DRESS AND IDENTITY). - - - - - - - - - - - Elaine L. Pedersen pedersee@ucs.orst.edu - - - - - - - - - - - ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 3 Dec 1996 20:39:31 -0500 From: "Penny E. Ladnier" Subject: knickers I just so happened to have my old pattern boxes out this week. I found a 1981 McCall's pattern (#7756) for knickers and a vest. Knickers were very fashionable for children and women in the early 1980's. As I remember, I made several outfits for my boys with knickers. Some were even jumpsuits with knickers. Oh! If they could only be that sweet again. Anyway, at that time they were ages 6 and 2 y.o. My next three sons, wore the smaller one's knickers until 1990. Not because it was a fashion because they were cute! The only outfit my husband has ever bought me was a red jumpsuit with knickers in the early 1980's (when they were fashionable). They hang in my closet and come out at Christmastime when I dress as an elf. How many people remember the fashion of wearing bloomers that matched your mini-dresses in the 1970's. It didn't matter if your underwear would show when you bent over. They matched your dress! Penny Penny E. Ladnier, Virginia Commonwealth University s0peladn@erols.com http://www.geocities.com/BourbonStreet/2157 member: Costume Society of America American Fashion Council Association for Information Systems Professionals ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 3 Dec 1996 19:55:21 -0800 From: "erin k. gault" Subject: corset sizes again Hi, I'm still working on my statistics project about corset sizes. I did get the info on existing period corset sizes but now I need to know modern day corset sizes. If any of you have made or worn a corset, please send me the corset size (not the waist size). You don't even have to say anything. You can just put the number. Thanks alot! ***************************************************************** * Erin K. Gault Evergreen State College * * e-mail: gaulte@elwha.evergreen.edu * ***************************************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 3 Dec 1996 20:28:16 -0800 From: Frances Grimble Subject: Re: knickers Knickers were very > fashionable for children and women in the early 1980's. I had a couple pairs; they were great. > How many people remember the fashion of wearing bloomers that matched your > mini-dresses in the 1970's. It didn't matter if your underwear would show > when you bent over. They matched your dress! That I don't remember. However, it brings to mind a black-and-white film of a 1920s Charleston contest which I recently went through frame by frame to analyze the steps. The woman of the winning couple wore a white or very light dress with black or very dark, almost knee-length knickers, probably gym wear rather than underwear. They obviously were meant to show and contrast with the dress. Especially when she did her big finale, which involved bending backward, very low, at right angles to the floor (with her partner holding her at her armpits), with one leg planted on the floor and the other kicking straight up. Fran Grimble http://www.best.com/~lavolta/dance/index.htm ------------------------------ End of H-COSTUME Digest - 2 Dec 1996 to 3 Dec 1996 ************************************************** From ???@??? Thu Dec 05 09:29:06 1996 Received: from brownvm.brown.edu by mail.math.TU-Berlin.DE with SMTP id AA03505 (5.67b8/IDA-1.5 for ); Thu, 5 Dec 1996 06:03:18 +0100 Message-Id: <199612050503.AA03505@mail.math.TU-Berlin.DE> Received: from BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU by BROWNVM.brown.edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with BSMTP id 3525; Thu, 05 Dec 96 00:02:20 EST Received: from BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU (NJE origin LISTSERV@BROWNVM) by BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 8764; Thu, 5 Dec 1996 00:02:16 -0500 Date: Thu, 5 Dec 1996 00:02:12 -0500 Reply-To: Historic Costume List Sender: Historic Costume List From: Automatic digest processor Subject: H-COSTUME Digest - 3 Dec 1996 to 4 Dec 1996 To: Recipients of H-COSTUME digests There are 17 messages totalling 416 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. corset closure (3) 2. Dutch Traditional Costume 3. Plastic Whaleboning 4. short pants 5. Cote-hardie sleeves 6. cancellation 7. Instructions for Digest format 8. Correction 9. Monroe shoes 10. German Costume Book 11. UK or US supplier of Spoon Busks? 12. Fine Pleats and Fortuny 13. Pride & Prejudice 14. H-COSTUME Digest - 30 Nov 1996 to 1 Dec 1996 15. I have a dress, now how about a bonnet? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 4 Dec 1996 03:56:36 UT From: Rebecca Plummer Subject: corset closure Does anyone know if there is any documentation for corsets to close in the front with laces as well as in the back? Perhaps for those women who did not have help to lace them up in the back? Thanks in advance for the response. Rebecca A. Plummer Past Impressions ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 4 Dec 1996 09:48:00 GMT From: "Chandler, Sally A." Subject: Dutch Traditional Costume Does anyone know anything about the rural Dutch custom of wearing a metal (silver, gold or copper) scull cap type affair over linen and silk coifs and under a lace cap? It's called something like an ohr-razor (which is my interpretation of what I heard, and nothing like the right spelling, I'm sure) Looking forward to your answers, Sally Ann Chandler s.a.chandler@shu.ac.uk ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 4 Dec 1996 09:48:00 GMT From: "Chandler, Sally A." Subject: Plastic Whaleboning A few of us are getting together to put in an order for some of the plastic whalebone we spoke about earlier as a trial run to see how we like it. It will work out at about 70p a metre plus postage. (This is cost price and I don't make anything on the transaction) I don't have the facilities to start sending out little amounts, but if anyone is interested in taking about 10m or multiples thereof to see how it goes, will you let me know as soon as possible, please? It is 6mm x 2.5mm and on an 'endless' strip which is the same dimensions as the whalebone in Queen Elizabeth's effigy's 'bodies' in Westminster Abbey, as well as a number of extant examples in Britain and America (so I'm told!) I understand that it gives the same level of support as real whalebone would ie it's fairly rigid. Best wishes, Sally Ann Chandler s.a.chandler@shu.ac.uk ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 4 Dec 1996 10:33:17 +0000 From: Dorothy Stein Subject: Re: short pants These messages confirm the saying that Americans and Brits are separate people divided by a common language. Also, it seems, time's arrow. Obviously, short pants on schoolboys went out earlier on the western side of the puddle. (When my sons went to school in a Paris suburb in 1963, they were still being worn there.) As to knickers, they are still the usual word for (women's) underpants here. (Men's are called 'Y-fronts). In that sense, they are shorter than short pants. Cheers, Dorothy. > Howeverm, I don't understand the reference about knickers being *shorter* than > short pants; I'd have expected the term "knickers" to denote a type of breeches. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 4 Dec 1996 09:15:42 EST From: Karen J Farris Subject: Cote-hardie sleeves To insert my own two-cents worth, when I make a cote-hardie, I put a seam just above the elbow (on the sleeve). This enables me to make a shaped lower sleeve in two pieces--front and back, so that you can achieve the lovely goblet sleeve at the wrist. I can then shift the lower sleeve around to put the button opening where it belongs--aligned with the pinkie. This also allows you to make all those countless buttonholes _before_ you attatch the sleeves. Hope this helps. Mistress Alysea of Ashley MKA Karen Farris ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 4 Dec 1996 12:04:05 -0800 From: Sherri Gallimore Subject: cancellation Please cancel my subscription. My e-mail address is heathernspud@mursuky.campus.mci.net. I am in the process of moving and I will continue my subscription later. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 4 Dec 1996 16:05:00 -0500 From: "NELSON, Carolyn A." Subject: Instructions for Digest format Deb Baddorf was kind enough to send me instructions for changing my subscription over from individual messages to digest format. Since her instructions worked beautifully, and since they are different from what someone posted today, I thought I'd copy them to the List for anyone else who's interested: Address your message to: listserv@brownvm.brown.edu Key in: 'set h-costume digest' as the body of the message I must also say that the automatically generated messages of your listserv are infinitely more informative, comprehensible and plain ol' friendly in tone than those I've received from other lists I'm on! Regards, Carolyn ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 4 Dec 1996 16:40:15 -0500 From: Valerie Winkler Subject: Correction Sorry, everyone, wrong reference on the shift in my posting on cotehardies. The sleeveless 14th-c. shift is pictured in Kohler, page 177, not the MoL books. Kate ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 4 Dec 1996 17:36:46 -0800 From: Glenna Jo & Bill Christen Subject: Monroe shoes This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------230A5AD76600 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit This was posted to another list I am on. Anyone familiar with the term, "Monroe Shoes," in regard to 19th C. men's foot wear? Thanks... Bill Christen gwjchris@rust.net > What are Monroe shoes? > > At one time, young Philip Sheridan didn't know either. And, dang his > hide, he didn't share once he learned. As he tells it, in a passage > detailing his studying for the West Point entrance examination (in > 1848): > > "That which was to follow worried me more and gave me more sleepless > nights; but these would have been less in number, I fully believe, had > it not been for one specification of my outfit which the circular that > accompanied my appointment demanded. This requirement was a pair of > 'Monroe shoes.' Now, out in Ohio, what 'Monroe shoes' were was a > mystery - not a shoemaker in my section having so much as an inkling of > the construction of the perplexing things, until finally my eldest > brother brought an idea of them from Baltimore, when it was found that > they were a familiar pattern under another name. > "At length the time for my departure came, and I set out for West > Point, going by way of Cleveland and across Lake Erie to Buffalo. On > the steamer I fell in with another appointee en route to the academy, > David S. Stanley, also from Ohio; and when our acquaintanceship had > ripened somewhat, and we had begun to repose confidence in each other, > I found that he had no 'Monroe shoes,' so I deemed myself just that > much ahead of my companion, although my shoes might not conform exactly > to the regulations in Eastern style and finish." > ["Personal Memoirs of P.H. Sheridan," Charles L. Webster and Co., New > York, 1888, Vol. 1, ppg. 8-9.] > > Robin Mitchell --------------230A5AD76600 Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Received: from europe.std.com (europe.std.com [199.172.62.20]) by Fe3.rust.net (8.8.2/8.8.0) with ESMTP id LAA23819 for ; Wed, 4 Dec 1996 11:12:12 -0500 (EDT) Received: by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id LAA10789; Wed, 4 Dec 1996 11:07:16 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: europe.std.com: daemon set sender to cw-reenactors-approval using -f Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id LAA10773; Wed, 4 Dec 1996 11:07:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from osceola.gate.net by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA16662; Wed, 4 Dec 1996 11:07:12 -0500 Received: from [199.227.16.66] (stpfl1-3.gate.net [199.227.16.66]) by osceola.gate.net (8.8.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id LAA04146 for ; Wed, 4 Dec 1996 11:07:06 -0500 Message-Id: <199612041607.LAA04146@osceola.gate.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 4 Dec 1996 11:08:35 -0400 To: CW-reenactors@world.std.com From: oldpap@gate.net (robin mitchell) Subject: HIS: Monroe shoes Sender: cw-reenactors-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: cw-reenactors@europe.std.com What are Monroe shoes? At one time, young Philip Sheridan didn't know either. And, dang his hide, he didn't share once he learned. As he tells it, in a passage detailing his studying for the West Point entrance examination (in 1848): "That which was to follow worried me more and gave me more sleepless nights; but these would have been less in number, I fully believe, had it not been for one specification of my outfit which the circular that accompanied my appointment demanded. This requirement was a pair of 'Monroe shoes.' Now, out in Ohio, what 'Monroe shoes' were was a mystery - not a shoemaker in my section having so much as an inkling of the construction of the perplexing things, until finally my eldest brother brought an idea of them from Baltimore, when it was found that they were a familiar pattern under another name. "At length the time for my departure came, and I set out for West Point, going by way of Cleveland and across Lake Erie to Buffalo. On the steamer I fell in with another appointee en route to the academy, David S. Stanley, also from Ohio; and when our acquaintanceship had ripened somewhat, and we had begun to repose confidence in each other, I found that he had no 'Monroe shoes,' so I deemed myself just that much ahead of my companion, although my shoes might not conform exactly to the regulations in Eastern style and finish." ["Personal Memoirs of P.H. Sheridan," Charles L. Webster and Co., New York, 1888, Vol. 1, ppg. 8-9.] I would suspect these are shoes expressly for interior wear, soft, probably very low-quarter cut. Are these barrack shoes? Dancing shoes (the gracious arts being an intregal part of a cadet's training)? In early illustrations of cadet living quarters, there appear, at the foot of the bed, shoes of a lower, daintier cut than bootees, or issue Jefferson cut. Perhaps the list's cobbler, Bill Christen, can shed light. Certainly there are other pedalists out there. (Note: Stanley, it might be recalled, was one-time Chief of Cavalry of the Army of the Cumberland and received a Medal of Honor for actions at the Battle of Franklin, where he was wounded. Apparently, the lack of 'Monroe shoes' did not hinder his career.) I remain, &c. Robin Mitchell, Barton's Brigade On each end of the rifle, we're the same --------------230A5AD76600-- ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 4 Dec 1996 18:49:15 -0500 From: "Penny E. Ladnier" Subject: German Costume Book My costume design class ran across the most wonderfully illustrated historic costume book today. It is called "Handbuch der Deutschen Tracht". Since none of us speak German, we are looking for help with translations. What does the title mean, will be a good place to start. One of these names are the author's: Fr. Hottenroth or Verlag von G. Weise. There is no copyright in the book but 1892 is the latest date mentioned in the front of the book. This book is almost 1,000 pages long. It has page after page of illustrations. The costume history starts with Greece and ends with Crinoline. Some pages have over 20 types of hats worn during a period, etc... It has a large variety of illustrations like this. It also includes German folk costumes. Has anyone seen this book before? The copy we have is falling apart. I got to bring it home for the week. I will be scanning a good bit of it. If there was a copyright on the book and it has expired, maybe I can put some of it on my web page. This way everyone can enjoy it. Penny Penny E. Ladnier, Virginia Commonwealth University s0peladn@erols.com http://www.geocities.com/BourbonStreet/2157 member: Costume Society of America American Fashion Council Association for Information Systems Professionals ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 4 Dec 1996 19:17:34 -0500 From: Ed Safford & Carol Kocian Subject: Re: corset closure Rebecca A. Plummer asked, >Does anyone know if there is any documentation for corsets to close in the >front with laces as well as in the back? Perhaps for those women who did >not have help to lace them up in the back? It helps to have your specific era to answer this question. 18th century stays sometimes laced both in the front and back, but not just in the front that I know of. Stays exist from around 1797 that have a lacing in front that goes from the top halfway down to the bottom. These are to adjust for bust fullness and not for getting into the stays. They are laced all the way down the back for that. The 1820's corsets tend to lace in the back only and have no front opening. At some point the metal busk closure was developed. It was definitely in use by the American Civil War (1860's) and througout the rest of the 19thC, but I don't know when it first showed up. The busk closes by metal loops on one side going over metal pegs on the other, and then the corset is tightened by the back lacings. Back lacings are easy to tighten by oneself in this type of corset, but difficult to lace up from scratch. -Carol Kocian *^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^* This account is shared by Carol Kocian and Ed Safford. Carol can also be e-mailed at ckocian@epe.org Ed is also at esafford@sun1.wwb.noaa.gov . ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 4 Dec 1996 20:45:27 -0500 From: Kirk Albrecht M311 Subject: Re: corset closure In a message dated 96-12-04 04:28:32 EST, Becci_Plummer@MSN.COM (Rebecca Plummer) writes: << Does anyone know if there is any documentation for corsets to close in the front with laces as well as in the back? >> I saw a picture the otherday where it laced on the side, from the waist to up under the arm. I don't have much expereince with corsets. Is that way very common? And which time period would that be? Kelly Albrecht m311@aol.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 5 Dec 1996 03:11:01 GMT From: Mary Subject: UK or US supplier of Spoon Busks? I recently read from a U.S. source that spoon busks were still available from the U.K. This got my hopes up a bit as I have been looking for a supplier for some= time.=20 My friend who sometimes does metalwork for me (also lets me use this computer) made me a spoon busk a while ago by removing the fittings from a straight busk and riveting them to two pieces of steel he cut to shape This was only after a lot of swearing and cursing.=20 The one set he made work well and are now in place in my 1880=92s corset I would like to make another but so as not to put any more strain on our friendship=85 does any one know where I can get Spoon Busks ready made?=20 Mary --- ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 5 Dec 1996 03:15:15 GMT From: Mary Subject: Fine Pleats and Fortuny I went to a RSC production of TROILUS & CRESSIDA last week. Two costumes reminded me of the dresses produced by Mariano Fortuny. This has started me thinking about making a copy of one of his dresses or one in the spirit of Fortuny. Does anyone on the list have any suggestions for making the fine pleats that typified Fortuny's dresses? More importantly any ideas on making the pleats permanent in silk or a man made fabric? Mary --- ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 4 Dec 1996 18:46:22 -0800 From: Julie Dickson Subject: Re: Pride & Prejudice On this same thread ...has anyone seen the 1940 version with Greer Garson and Lawrence Oliver ? What is it with those costumes ? Did they really wear those horrible hats? ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 4 Dec 1996 22:17:28 -0500 From: Priscilla Meredith Subject: Re: H-COSTUME Digest - 30 Nov 1996 to 1 Dec 1996 Sorry about this but will you please add me to your mailing list.... Cilla@cylatech.com I use to get your digest form but my address changed and this was the only address I still had..... Thanks priscilla ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 4 Dec 1996 23:48:39 -0500 From: SyRilla@AOL.COM Subject: I have a dress, now how about a bonnet? My wonderful friends, Thank you so very much for all of you suggestions and help on making a quick Dicken's dress. It is a basic 1840's dress, and I am almost finished with it. But now I need a bonnet. I thought I remembered how to make one, but... Ohhhh, the mock up looks bad =p.. Does anyone have any other ideas or quick suggestions. I only have 5 more days. Thank you once again. Your ever learning student, Kimberly ------------------------------ End of H-COSTUME Digest - 3 Dec 1996 to 4 Dec 1996 ************************************************** From ???@??? Tue Dec 03 12:29:03 1996 Received: from brownvm.brown.edu by mail.math.TU-Berlin.DE with SMTP id AA09862 (5.67b8/IDA-1.5 for ); Tue, 3 Dec 1996 06:02:30 +0100 Message-Id: <199612030502.AA09862@mail.math.TU-Berlin.DE> Received: from BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU by BROWNVM.brown.edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with BSMTP id 8911; Tue, 03 Dec 96 00:01:35 EST Received: from BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU (NJE origin LISTSERV@BROWNVM) by BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 7189; Tue, 3 Dec 1996 00:01:14 -0500 Date: Tue, 3 Dec 1996 00:01:07 -0500 Reply-To: Historic Costume List Sender: Historic Costume List From: Automatic digest processor Subject: H-COSTUME Digest - 1 Dec 1996 to 2 Dec 1996 To: Recipients of H-COSTUME digests There are 18 messages totalling 515 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. Dolls 2. sjprt pants 3. costume book (2) 4. Kohler-A History of Costume 5. "Fashion in the Age of the Black Prince" 6. corset advice? (2) 7. sub to list 8. Various Questions 9. Marrons 10. Question for List Owner 11. Britex Pattern Sale 12. Research !Help! 13. H-COSTUME Digest - 30 Nov 1996 to 1 Dec 1996 (2) 14. Hoop wire 15. short pants ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 1 Dec 1996 21:48:22 -0700 From: Julie Adams Subject: Re: Dolls > Carol Kocian asked in her posting if others had made dolls for their >children > to use at events. I made my son a small cloth man doll about 6" tall that was unclothed and made some french knots for hair and satin stitched a beard for use in 16th c reenactment. He looks like Sir Walter Raleigh...only naked... Its his equivalent of an action figure... Eventually he might get more realistic wooden figures to play with as he gets older...if we find the time to craft them. Julie Adams (back again...with different email address=> savaskan@sd.znet.com) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 2 Dec 1996 06:58:24 -0500 From: Gary Stephens Subject: Re: sjprt pants Alison asked: > When did little boys stop wearing short pants? I >don't mean what age they graduated to long pants, but when >the custom of starting boys out in knee pants stopped. My husband, who was born in Gloucester, England, was made to wear short pants as a boy. He was born in 1953. Lorina J. Stephens author of _Touring the Giant's Rib_ & _Credit River Valley_ embroiderer, restorer, artist http://web.idirect.com/~canuck/stephens/stephen.html ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 2 Dec 1996 08:21:20 CDT From: Cindy Abel Subject: Re: costume book I bought myself an early Christmas present Friday while browsing at Borders bookstore that some members of the list might be interested. It is Art and Dress: Fashion and Society, 1500-1914 by Jane Ashelford. It is a bit pricey at $49.50, but has many wonderful color plates and is a good general overall view of the centuries covered. There are many things in it I didn't know about in it, for example, there is a plate (color)of a super-rare surviving 16th c "sweetbag," beautifully embrodiered and looking more like a lady's small purse. Also, are there any NYC members of the list that have seen the new movie "The Crucible,"yet? I've only seen a few brief clips of the movie on T.V., and I'm wondering about the sources used for costuming of the characters. The usual trap of copying the Victorian version of Pilgrim costume seems to have been avoided,but I spotted Daniel Day-Lewis as John Procter in at least one scene in a mostly unfastened shirt, a scarf knotted about his neck, and a very cape-like leather great-coat. Any historic evidence for this being late 17th century or not? Cindy Abel Health Sciences Library Creighton University 2500 California Plaza Omaha NE 68178-0400 Phone: 402-280-5144 Technology is wonderful only when it works correctly ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 2 Dec 1996 09:15:09 -0600 From: Jane Bretz Subject: Kohler-A History of Costume I have the Kohler book. I find that his patterning and examples is very much in the German tradition, when it comes to Coathardies. If you are working on costuming for this region, it seems to match many of the germanic art at the time. However, it seems to be much different than the French styles. I understand it is a good reference for lowland Viking. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 2 Dec 1996 09:18:16 -0600 From: Jane Bretz Subject: "Fashion in the Age of the Black Prince" This is an excellent book on this era, for those who don't know. Does anyone know where I can get a copy? It is out of print. I have a Xerox, but I would rather have a real one. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 2 Dec 1996 08:06:45 PST From: Venus Envy Subject: corset advice? Hi - I'm thinking of making Past Patterns corset #213 - can anyone give me any advice - problems they had with the pattern, or an estimate of how long it's likely to take? My main issue is I'm rather large busted with a small ribcage - pointers on how to make that more comfortable would be greatly welcome... [er - with this corset. I don't want your doctors name and number ;)] Thanks a tonne ! Heather Meadows goddess@wonderland.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 2 Dec 1996 09:10:15 -0800 From: "R.L. Shep" Subject: Re: costume book Cindy Abel wrote: > > I bought myself an early Christmas present Friday while browsing at > Borders bookstore that some members of the list might be interested. > > It is Art and Dress: Fashion and Society, 1500-1914 by Jane > Ashelford. It is a bit pricey at $49.50, but has many wonderful > color plates and is a good general overall view of the centuries > covered. There are many things in it I didn't know about in it, for > example, there is a plate (color)of a super-rare surviving 16th c > "sweetbag," beautifully embrodiered and looking more like a lady's > small purse. > > Also, are there any NYC members of the list that have seen the new > movie "The Crucible,"yet? I've only seen a few brief clips of the > movie on T.V., and I'm wondering about the sources used for costuming > of the characters. The usual trap of copying the Victorian version of > Pilgrim costume seems to have been avoided,but I spotted Daniel > Day-Lewis as John Procter in at least one scene in a mostly > unfastened shirt, a scarf knotted about his neck, and a very > cape-like leather great-coat. Any historic evidence for this being > late 17th century or not? > Cindy Abel > Health Sciences Library > Creighton University > 2500 California Plaza > Omaha NE 68178-0400 > Phone: 402-280-5144 > > Technology is wonderful only when it works correctly ART & DRESS is distributed in the US by Abrams. We are reviewing it in the Winter 1997 issue of RAGS. ~!~ R.L. Shep http://www.mcn.org/R/RAGS ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 2 Dec 1996 09:19:51 -0800 From: Lisa Fitzsimmons Subject: sub to list Greetings I would like to be added to the list. Thank you. Conny Fitzsimmons ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 2 Dec 1996 12:40:11 -0500 From: Stacey_Weinberger_at_NOTES__DIRECTORY.WADSWORTH@CABELSMTP.WADSWORTH.COM Subject: Re: Various Questions This is the preamble of an RFC-1341 encoded, mixed message. ---- next item ---- Content-Type: Text/Plain New Text Item: Re: Various Questions I believe that marron glace is opaquish white. It is called marron from the Italian for chestnuts (Maroni) and is still used in Viennese cooking. Any cooks out there to give more of a detailed description? Stacey (Embedded image moved kondoa @ UCS.ORST.EDU (Alison Kondo) to file: 12/01/96 11:47 AM PIC001.PCX) To: H-COSTUME @ BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU (Multiple recipients of list H-COSTUME) @ BelmontSMTP at NOTES_DIRECTORY@WADSWORTH cc: (bcc: Stacey Weinberger/WAD/International Thomson Publishing) Subject: Various Questions New Text Item: Various Questions I have a couple of unrelated questions I wondered if folks could help me with... When did little boys stop wearing short pants? I don't mean what age they graduated to long pants, but when the custom of starting boys out in knee pants stopped. What colour is marron or marron glace? I run across a lot of references to this in the 1920's & am guessing it's reddish brown. Am I correct? Non historical question: Does anyone know what brands of good costume jewelry are popular in Japan right now? In the 1980's "Monet" was very popular, etc. My mom has to send a gift & wants to get the right thing. 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On Mon, 2 Dec 1996 08:06:45 PST Venus Envy writes: >Hi - > >I'm thinking of making Past Patterns corset #213 - >can anyone give me any advice - problems they had >with the pattern, or an estimate of how long >it's likely to take? Not long. Actual sewing time was about 3 hours for me. > >My main issue is I'm rather large busted with >a small ribcage - pointers on how to make that more >comfortable would be greatly welcome... >[er - with this corset. I don't want your doctors >name and number ;)] What you basically want to do is make sure that main part of the corset will fit tightly to your rib cage. (Rib cage measurements LESS 2") You can then widen and extend the upper portion of the front gores until the corset will accommodate "all" of you. Hope this helps-- LuAnn ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 2 Dec 1996 13:40:00 -0500 From: "NELSON, Carolyn A." Subject: Marrons Hello everyone, This is my first posting. I joined the List because I've recently become interested in Regency costumes for my own personal use. I've become quite involved with the Jane Austen Society and with English Country Dance in the past year and am literally "having a ball" making and wearing period costumes, but anyway... I can add a bit of information on the marron questions. Since "marron" is the French word for chestnut, it seems that both it and the Italian word, maroni, must come from the same latin root. I have roasted chestnuts, made chestnut stuffing and even made marrons glaces once. When raw, the chestnut has a rich brown hull with a reddish cast, the meat is lighter similar to a hazelnut or a brazil nut. When the marron is cooked, however, the meat turns a grey/brown color. A creme de marron or marrons glaces would be this grey/brown color, whereas if the color was simply, "marron" I'd be lead to think it was the red/brown color. Hope this helps! Carolyn (nelsoca@rpr.rpna.com) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 2 Dec 1996 13:45:00 -0500 From: "NELSON, Carolyn A." Subject: Question for List Owner Sorry to post this to the list, but I've read and re-read the instructions I received when I subscribed and cannot find the answer to this one. 1) Is there an address for a "live" list owner, not just the automated Listserv? 2) How do I change my subscription to receive a daily digest instead of individual messages? Thanks in advance to anyone who can help me with this info. Carolyn (nelsoca@rpr.rpna.com) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 2 Dec 1996 11:54:12 PST From: Loren Dearborn Subject: Britex Pattern Sale SF folks on this list might be interested to hear that Britex is having their 50% off all patterns sale - I discovered last time they did this that this INCLUDES Folkwear Patterns. The sale runs from today thru Saturday. Happy Shopping! Loren Dearborn ldearborn@calacademy.org ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 2 Dec 1996 13:36:00 -0600 From: "Davis, Charles E." Subject: Research !Help! Hello to the Costume List. I'm in a bit of a fix. I was over to a friend's house looking at several pages copied from of a French costume book on the 14-15 century. None of the pages have the book name on them, and Aaron can't remember where he got them. Could you help?? I have scanned one of the pages and will post it to the web at: http://www.isd.net/cdavis/costume.jpg (110k or costum2.jpg for a smaller file 33k) (sometime tonight - Monday 2Dec96) It shows Christ on the cross with only brays on and a pattern for the brays. If you reconize it could you tell me what the book is? Thank you for your time and help. Chuck Davis * * "Your vision will become clear only when you look into your heart. Who * looks outside, dreams. Who looks inside, awakens." Carl Jung * * Charles Edwin Davis 8-{) Honesta Prima * Cadwallon y' Rhudd (but everybody calls me Cad) * (A Welsh, Metal Hitting, Weasel Laurel) * davis0c@kochind.com or cdavis@isd.net * homepage http://www.isd.net/cdavis * ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 2 Dec 1996 19:14:23 -0500 From: Tess Parrish Subject: Re: H-COSTUME Digest - 30 Nov 1996 to 1 Dec 1996 I made a wooden doll after having studied several--at Williamsburg and the Smithsonian. But the best thing was that someone who had a real 18th century doll, like the ones mentioned, let me take measurements and copy it exactly. The doll is about 18" tall, turned out of poplar wood, and has the typical painted face of the period. No glass eyes, though--I couldn't find any. She is at the stage of appearing in her shift, stays, pockets and petticoats: it took a while to find the right silk for her gown, and it is waiting to be cut out. Tess ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 2 Dec 1996 19:14:31 -0500 From: Tess Parrish Subject: Re: H-COSTUME Digest - 30 Nov 1996 to 1 Dec 1996 No, knickers are longer than short pants. If they are made of corduroy they make a sound when you walk along, hence "Whistlebritches". I think that short pants, in the north anyway, went out after WW II, although by the fifties men were beginning to wear shorts for casual wear (and as part of military uniforms) in hot weather. Depends upon the country (do English boys still have short pants as part of their uniforms?) and climate: everyone wears shorts in the tropics. My son, born in '56, wore long pants in first grade, but my brother, born '30 and '31, wore short pants until they began to grow at 13 or so. Tess ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 2 Dec 1996 17:47:21 -0600 From: ches Subject: Re: Hoop wire I used to work over at the Performing Arts Center in Austin Texas in the 80's. I watched them put together the creature in question. What they did was a Mother Ginger that was 10' tall! Her dress was made of wood and chicken wire with curtain rods for the front part to open and close the 'doors'. I believe the Ballet company there in Austin owns it and they may have a website with contacts that you can make. Ciao Ches ---------- : From: Karen Lovejoy : To: Multiple recipients of list H-COSTUME : Subject: Hoop wire : Date: Sunday, December 01, 1996 9:49 AM : : A friend asked me if there was any place, particularly here in Seattle where : she can get wide, about 1-2" solid metal hoop wire. She is making a costume : for Mother Ginger in Nutcracker and needs something very strong and sturdy to : hold up the fabric and handle the hieght required. Thanks for any help. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 3 Dec 1996 02:58:26 GMT From: "Paul C. Dickie" Subject: Re: short pants In message garys@FLEXNET.COM writes: > Alison asked: > > When did little boys stop wearing short pants? I > >don't mean what age they graduated to long pants, but when > >the custom of starting boys out in knee pants stopped. > > My husband, who was born in Gloucester, England, was made to wear > short pants as a boy. He was born in 1953. That would be confirmed by my experience, for regardless of whatever one might wear out of school, short pants were still the regulation school uniform -- for the first-year pupils at a fee-paying secondary school -- as late as 1971. That school also insisted on its pupils all wearing the regulation school cap until about 1974... Howeverm, I don't understand the reference about knickers being *shorter* than short pants; I'd have expected the term "knickers" to denote a type of breeches. < Paul > ------------------------------ End of H-COSTUME Digest - 1 Dec 1996 to 2 Dec 1996 ************************************************** From ???@??? Fri Dec 06 10:18:00 1996 Received: from brownvm.brown.edu by mail.math.TU-Berlin.DE with SMTP id AA10213 (5.67b8/IDA-1.5 for ); Fri, 6 Dec 1996 06:03:05 +0100 Message-Id: <199612060503.AA10213@mail.math.TU-Berlin.DE> Received: from BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU by BROWNVM.brown.edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with BSMTP id 5763; Fri, 06 Dec 96 00:02:11 EST Received: from BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU (NJE origin LISTSERV@BROWNVM) by BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 5567; Fri, 6 Dec 1996 00:02:10 -0500 Date: Fri, 6 Dec 1996 00:02:07 -0500 Reply-To: Historic Costume List Sender: Historic Costume List From: Automatic digest processor Subject: H-COSTUME Digest - 4 Dec 1996 to 5 Dec 1996 To: Recipients of H-COSTUME digests There are 22 messages totalling 546 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. Pride & Prejudice 2. Pleats (2) 3. Various Questions 4. Dolls 5. UK or US supplier of Spoon Busks? 6. change of subscription address 7. corset closure 8. pleat permanicity (?) (4) 9. Help? 10. knickers... 11. Fortuny 12. German Costume Book 13. Victorian Ballroom dance card? 14. Pleating 15. Let's jump into the thirties... 16. Mariano Fortuny 17. Baptismal Gown 18. lederhosen ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 5 Dec 1996 08:44:27 -0500 From: felicia m ciaudelli Subject: Re: Pride & Prejudice In reply to the mail from ... ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >Date: Wed, 4 Dec 1996 18:46:22 -0800 >From: Julie Dickson >Subject: Re: Pride & Prejudice >To: Multiple recipients of list H-COSTUME > > >On this same thread ...has anyone seen the 1940 version with Greer Garson >and Lawrence Oliver ? What is it with those costumes ? > Did they really >wear those horrible hats? > Yes, I saw it....we taped if from PBS back in July. :-) One interesting part that my mom pointed out to me.....talk about *primitive*. At one point when Greer Garson's character was visiting a friend, when she took off her hat, it hit the other woman right in the face.....was never even edited out! And early in the movie, when Lawrence Olivier's cape got *stuck* and had a bit of difficulty taking it off. Felicia ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- i000347 sends (Felicia Ciaudelli)... ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 5 Dec 1996 09:25:20 EST From: Carol Kocian Subject: Pleats Mary wrote, > Does anyone on the list have any suggestions for making the fine > pleats that typified Fortuny's dresses? > More importantly any ideas on making the pleats permanent in silk > or a man made fabric? Permanent pleats in silk would be difficult. The original Fortuny dresses were kept away from water. Stories have it that if it was raining, some women would pull off their Fortuny dress in the car, run into the nightspot in the nude, clutching the dress, and then put it on again once inside. Perhaps there was a doorman available with a thick towel to dry the wet bodies? There is a technique for permanent pleats in synthetic fabrics, though. With you and a friend holding each end of the yardage, twist the fabric. Keep twisting until it's in a ball. Little wrinkles will appear as you do this. Get a colander and a large pot that the colander will fit into. Put a bit of water in the bottom of the pot. Place the twisted ball of fabric in the colander & steam it. This will set the wrinkles. I've seen the results of fabric treated this way, and it's spectacular. -Carol ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 5 Dec 1996 13:26:34 -0400 From: Margaret Rae Carignan Subject: Re: Various Questions Doesn't "marron" mean chestnut in French? Are not "marron glace" candied chestnuts? My francophone hubby isn't home right now, but I'm pretty sure. Meg/Francesca ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 5 Dec 1996 13:31:05 -0400 From: Margaret Rae Carignan Subject: Re: Dolls I just heard about a collection of fashion dolls, made in the 18th century with descriptions of dressed worn by actual people ("Gown worn at the assemblies in Bath, 1782" type things) at the V&A. Apparently there are over 100 of these that were all made by one 18th century woman! Has anyone ever seen these dolls? Is there a book about them or anything? Why have I not heard of these before? Perhaps they are common knowledge to people who specialize in this period, and I'm getting all goosebumpy for nothing. Info? Help! Meg/Francesca ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 5 Dec 1996 13:18:47 -0500 From: Mary Smith Subject: Re: UK or US supplier of Spoon Busks? My husband is a blacksmith, a general metal worker and a woodworker. If he has the proper specs, he can probably make a spoon busk. If there is interest, he can make multiples. He is currently making crescent shaped pinking punches for 18th/19th Century dressmakers, and straight punches for earlier periods. Please let us know if there is something he can make for you. Hope this helps, Mary Denise Smith Costume & Dressmaker Magazine Dan Brown Blacksmith ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 5 Dec 1996 13:45:02 -0500 From: Harrett Subject: change of subscription address Please change the address of my subscription to: afn24101@afn.org I originally got the subscription for my wife and the change is to her address. Thank You S. Harrett rurik@inetw.net ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 5 Dec 1996 14:59:52 -0400 From: Margaret Rae Carignan Subject: Re: corset closure Hi Rebecca. As with any costume question, it helps to have a date. There is an existing Elizabethan (1610ish, I believe) front-lacing pair of stays pictured by Janet Arnold in both the Patterns of Fashion, and Q.E.'s Wardrobe Unlock'd that was used to pattern Q.E.'s effigy stays, if I remember right. I have seen 18th century stays with laces in the front, but the placement of horizontal whalebone makes them non-functional as far as I can tell. I remember reading that various periods of stays came with optional front, and sometimes side lacings to accommodate various figure types. Check Norah Waugh's "Corsets and Crinolines", which covers the topic nicely. Meg/Francesca ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 5 Dec 1996 14:15:39 EST From: bglickman@ECKERT.ACADCOMP.MONROECC.EDU Subject: pleat permanicity (?) Does anyone on the list have any suggestions for making the fine pleats that typified Fortuny's dresses? More importantly any ideas on making the pleats permanent in silk or a man made fabric? Mary ============================================================================= Mary: I just got a catalog from Clothilde here in the US. She shows an embellished shirt with twisted polyester ribbons in a kit. You wind the ribbons on a metal post, then dip it in vinegar and bake it in the oven at 220oF for an hour. i don't know it it works on silk, which is protein and therefore sensitive to denaturation - that is it could work perfectly, or it could destroy the silk or render it a wad of junk... (I can give an hour-long lecture on protein in my sleep...I'll spare you... ) I will be experimenting as soon as school is out and I have some time... I'll post any results. The catalog also has "Pleaters" - It looks like you tuck in your fabic and then iron it to set the pleats. She has one that's 8"x22" for $53.60 and one that's 8" x 11" for $28.00. I haven't done any business with Clothilde yet, so I can't vouch either way. In anticipation of requests for the address, etc. it's: Clothilde, 2 Sew Smart Way, B8031, Stevens Points WI 54481-8031 (USA) Orderline 1-800-772-2891 (m-f 7:30 - 4:00 pm CST) Regards from Spring-like Rochester NY (OK-it's 38oF!) Bonnie G. B) -------------------------------------------------|=|=|=|=|=|=|=|=|=|=|=|=|= Bonnie Glickman =|=|= "I'm NOT waiting Bio. Dept.; Monroe Comm. Coll. |=|=| until I'm old... Rochester, NY 14623 (716) 292-2725 =|=|= I'm wearing my email: bglickman@eckert.acadcomp.monroecc.edu |=|=| Purple NOW!!" -bg or GLICKMAN@mccvm.is.monroecc.edu =|=|=|=|=|=|=|=|=|=|=|=|=| ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 5 Dec 1996 12:04:40 -0700 From: Victoria Hunsaker Subject: Help? I am looking for information on where to purchase period costumes for the 1850's - 1890's. Can anyone give me a company to call? Thanks! ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 5 Dec 1996 14:20:08 EST From: bglickman@ECKERT.ACADCOMP.MONROECC.EDU Subject: knickers... S.A.Chandler@SHU.AC.UK 3-DEC-1996 wrote: Despite the fact that knickers were our undergarments - we also wore something called knickers for games lessons throughout the 70's (and of course - we were girls so this may not relate to Knickers for boys in another continent!) They were not the much loved thick blue things which weall wore under the school uniform (made of something like sweatshirting and worn for P.E, when we were younger) but black glazed cotton things -gathered onto a yoke, zip at the side, gathered legs about as short as they could be. I've never hated a garment more! ===================== I'd forgotten about "knickers" being undies - I have an English friend who's favorite phrase is "Don't get your knickers in a twist!" I love it and now mumble it all the time at anyone who ticks me off... MY knickers were bought for cross-country skiing: heavy corduroy (that chanted as I skiied -so much for sneaking up on wildlife...) that went to a velcro-ed cuff just below the knee, worn with nordic knee socks so that the skin is covered. We had a bar in town called "Knickers", and their sign showed a golfer wearing knickers and it was the same arrangement - socks up to the knee covered by the bottom cuff of the pants. NO knobby knees! Someone else mentioned the military wearing shorts - This summer both my male and female Mail Carriers wore nicely cut "bermuda shorts" in a medium blue with a navy stripe down the side, plus knee socks. (What's the purpose/function of the stripe? Don't tuxedo pants have them also??? There's a new discussion subject!!) Bonnie Glickman ---------------------- -------------------------------------------------|=|=|=|=|=|=|=|=|=|=|=|=|= Bonnie Glickman =|=|= "I'm NOT waiting Bio. Dept.; Monroe Comm. Coll. |=|=| until I'm old... Rochester, NY 14623 (716) 292-2725 =|=|= I'm wearing my email: bglickman@eckert.acadcomp.monroecc.edu |=|=| Purple NOW!!" -bg or GLICKMAN@mccvm.is.monroecc.edu =|=|=|=|=|=|=|=|=|=|=|=|=| ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 5 Dec 1996 14:43:41 -0500 From: Mary Smith Subject: Re: Pleats The cover article of Nov/Dec HANDWOVEN magazine (Interweave Press 800-272-2193)is on woven-in Fortuny-style pleats achieved by overtwisting the component threads. Very interesting reading, even if one has no intention of do it oneself! Fortuny gowns were stored twisted up into skeins or buns. One can have lightweight fabric "crystal pleated" by a commercial firm. There was an article in THREADS several years ago about this. One note about finely pleated fabric, it clings to the wearer in a most revealing fashion. Best, Mary Denise Smith ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 5 Dec 1996 11:45:15 PST From: Gia Gavino-Gattshall Subject: Re: pleat permanicity (?) Another angle had got me thinking about the question of fine pleats. In the latest issue of Handwoven there is an article about the use of "Overtwisted thread/yarn" in the weft, so that when washed/fulled (can't remember the exact wording) the overtwisted yarns would 'pucker' or 'pleat' uniformly. I thought about the implications of the use of the word "bliaut" as interpreted to mean a "fabric" in some old french literature (I can get the name of the book if anyone is interested). I seem to recall from the article that this technique can be used on different fibers. This article was short, but fascinating... Gia Gavino-Gattshall AKA Giacinta da Venezia, SCA > Does anyone on the list have any suggestions for making the fine pleats that > typified Fortuny's dresses? > More importantly any ideas on making the pleats permanent in silk or a man > made fabric? > ============================================================================= > Mary: I just got a catalog from Clothilde here in the US. She shows an > embellished shirt with twisted polyester ribbons in a kit. You wind the > ribbons on a metal post, then dip it in vinegar and bake it in the oven > at 220oF for an hour. > > i don't know it it works on silk, which is protein and therefore sensitive > to denaturation - that is it could work perfectly, or it could destroy the > silk or render it a wad of junk... (I can give an hour-long lecture on > protein in my sleep...I'll spare you... ) > ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 5 Dec 1996 12:25:55 -0800 From: Agnes Gawne Subject: Re: pleat permanicity (?) REPLY: RE>pleat permanicity (?) 12/5/96 Mary asked: Does anyone on the list have any suggestions for making the fine pleats that typified Fortuny's dresses? More importantly any ideas on making the pleats permanent in silk or a man made fabric? +++++ I have never used one but I understand there are companies that specialize in pleating. I took a ribbon work class from Candace Kling and she reported a company in San Francisco that will pleat your fabric or ribbon if you send it to them... they did circles, irregular pleats (like Fortuny) and other knife pleats of various widths. It was not cheap. I can't recall their name but it was something like "San Francisco Pleating" or "American Pleating" and they catered mostly to the garment trade but would do retail. I can look for the exact name in my notes from that long ago class, if there is a genuine interest e-mail me privately. One might try the telephone directory in their area - there must be a company that does this in the UK and New York. Incidentally, a woman I know has an original Fortuny dress and it came twisted up in a little round box. If anyone actually creates one of these reproductions it might be wise to store it this way as well to retain the pleats. Agnes ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 5 Dec 1996 15:44:08 -0500 From: "Teresa G. Kellmer" Subject: Fortuny I can't stand it anymore! I don't mean to be ignorant, but I have no idea what a Fortuny dress is and with all this discussion, I would now love to know. Teresa K. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 4 Dec 1996 22:32:24 -0800 From: Glenna Jo & Bill Christen Subject: Re: German Costume Book Penny E. Ladnier wrote: >It is called "Handbuch der Deutschen Tracht"....What does the title mean, The title means "Handbook of (Traditional) German Costume" >One of these names are the author's: Fr. Hottenroth or Verlag von G. Weise. I would guess Fr. Hottenroth is the author since the publisher is G. Weise (Velag means publisher) It's been 20 years since I lived in Hamburg Germany, but I still remember a few words... :-) "Frau" Glenna Jo Christen gwjchris@rust.net ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 5 Dec 1996 15:24:41 PST From: Venus Envy Subject: Victorian Ballroom dance card? Ok it's not a costume, but it is an accessory... Does anyone know where there are any images of Victorian dance cards? Preferably on theweb, but in the library wouldbe grand too.. I'm sick of going to victorian dances and having to memorize the sets! -Heather Meadows goddess@wonderland.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 5 Dec 1996 15:53:15 PST From: Loren Dearborn Subject: Pleating One can have lightweight fabric "crystal pleated" by a commercial firm. There was an article in THREADS several years ago about this. I don't know if they do this kind of pleating, but if you're in the San Francisco Bay Area you could try the San Francisco Pleating Company at 425 2nd Street (& Harrison) (415) 982-3003 ask for Rusty. I've had them do some pleating for me that I was very happy with. Good luck. Cheers, Loren Dearborn ldearborn@calacademy.org ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 5 Dec 1996 19:42:32 -0500 From: splumb@IC.NET Subject: Let's jump into the thirties... Hello all. I am planning to recreate a dress I fell in love with years ago. I was watching a movie called "Topper", with Cary Grant and Constance Bennett. I want to make the dress she is wearing before they have the car accident. I have a good black and white photo of the dress, so design is not a problem. What I want to know is, is there any way I can find out what color it was, and what fabric it was made of? I'm mainly interested in the color. TIA, Michelle //================================================================================== // Steve and Michelle Plumb // splumb@ic.net -- Plymouth, MI // // ...And when Cindy Lou Who was in bed with her cup, // He crupt to the chimney and stuffed the tree up! // // Theodor Geisel // ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 6 Dec 1996 01:44:56 GMT From: Mary Subject: Mariano Fortuny On Thu, 5 Dec 1996 Teresa K. Wrote:- =20 >I can't stand it anymore! I don't mean to be ignorant, but I have no idea >what a Fortuny dress is and with all this discussion, I would now love to >know. Mariano Fortuny 1871-1949 Theatre designer, painter, engraver, architect, photographer, inventor=85= and he sill found time to design some of the most beautiful dress ever IMHO. The dresses were created over a period from about 1907 right up until Fortuny=92s death. It is probably the Delphos he is best remembered for. A long dress of very finely pleated silk. Imagine a classical Greek costume as portrayed in a 1920=92s film and you will get the idea. As well as the Delphos he also designed many other gowns. The ones I am particularly fond of are the velvet ones with the side panels of pleated silk. The velvet was stencilled to give a gold embossed effect. There is a Fortuny Museum in Venice in his house. If any one is interested I can post a list of US museums that have examples of Fortuny=92s dresses in their collections. For further reading see the book by Guillermo De Asme. Mary temple@globalnet.co.uk ---=20 ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 5 Dec 1996 22:26:07 -0500 From: No Name Subject: Re: pleat permanicity (?) I have pleated a lot of silk to closely resemble Fortuny. It is a lot of work, but worth it. You caned wrap it around a pvc pole, about 8". and scrunch it down and then pour very hot water and vinegar over it and let it dry. I prefer to wrap the fabric very tightly with large rubber bands or the tourniquets that Drs. use. You fasten the fabric to something stable with a C-clamp and wrap the bands very tightly around the fabric. I can get 45" to the size of a nickel. Then I wet it with very hot water and let it dry, with help from short times in the microwave and also in a warmer that I never use for its intended purpose. I repleat it several times in order to get the really fine pleats. For my daughters wedding, my daughter and I painted thin charmeuse and then pleated it for ten bridesmaids dresses. They were all different colors and cording was wrapped around each dress in many different ways. I gave the dresses to them in small hat boxes and they were twisted like Fortuny did and that is the girls store them. I wish that they were permanent, but they are not. I've always been told that silk cannot be permanently pleated and Mary McFadden uses polyester. Hope this helps. Toni ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 5 Dec 1996 23:28:26 -0500 From: No Name Subject: Baptismal Gown I am going to be making a baptismal gown for my sister-in-law. I would like to pattern it after one from the late 1800's to early 1900's. Does anyone know of a good source where I can see pictures for a reference? Thanks in advance! Danelle ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 5 Dec 1996 23:49:05 -0500 From: No Name Subject: Re: lederhosen In a message dated 12/3/96 1:32:51 PM, gwjchris@RUST.NET (Glenna Jo & Bill Christen) wrote: <> And if you mispronounce "lederhosen" as many do as "leiderhosen",it means "singing pants." I was so informed by German speaking costumer I worked with once. Unfortunately that has been an image that has stuck with me. Kij ------------------------------ End of H-COSTUME Digest - 4 Dec 1996 to 5 Dec 1996 ************************************************** From ???@??? Mon Dec 09 10:47:06 1996 Received: from brownvm.brown.edu by mail.math.TU-Berlin.DE with SMTP id AA16938 (5.67b8/IDA-1.5 for ); Sat, 7 Dec 1996 06:02:15 +0100 Message-Id: <199612070502.AA16938@mail.math.TU-Berlin.DE> Received: from BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU by BROWNVM.brown.edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with BSMTP id 8024; Sat, 07 Dec 96 00:01:21 EST Received: from BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU (NJE origin LISTSERV@BROWNVM) by BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 2939; Sat, 7 Dec 1996 00:01:19 -0500 Date: Sat, 7 Dec 1996 00:01:14 -0500 Reply-To: Historic Costume List Sender: Historic Costume List From: Automatic digest processor Subject: H-COSTUME Digest - 5 Dec 1996 to 6 Dec 1996 To: Recipients of H-COSTUME digests There are 23 messages totalling 549 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. German Costume Book 2. Help 3. Fortuny Dresses (3) 4. Dolls 5. Help? 6. lederhosen 7. Baptismal Gown (4) 8. (2) 9. How Much Have I Learned? 10. fortuny pleats 11. Pants (3) 12. pleating 13. pleats 14. Thanks & questions 15. German Costume Book (fwd) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 6 Dec 1996 00:32:46 -0500 From: "Penny E. Ladnier" Subject: German Costume Book Thanks for all the responses about the German costume book. Kelvin in Holland confirmed the name of the book this morning. English title: "Handbook of German Costume" Author: Mr. or Mrs. Hottenroth Publisher: G. Weise I haven't heard about the copyright yet. But after searching the world over, someone from Richmond (on the list), Kirsten, who speaks and reads German wrote to me. She has checked this book out before at VCU and is willing to help me translate it. Although, for those interested R. Shep said Fred Struthers may have a copy of the book available. Email Fred at: fsbks@mcn.org ***To all those people who wrote me about how I computer generated the costume designs on my web page, I will reply after finals. "Into the Woods" will blow you away. I have combined many period garments. The new designs and patterns will start appearing Dec. 11 on my page... I promise the list, you won't hear from me again until after next Wednesday. I have about 100 costume plates to paint and am heavy in the middle of finals. Penny Penny E. Ladnier, Virginia Commonwealth University s0peladn@erols.com http://www.geocities.com/BourbonStreet/2157 member: Costume Society of America American Fashion Council Association for Information Systems Professionals ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 6 Dec 1996 01:37:36 -0600 From: Tim Allison Subject: Re: Help Victoria, I recommend Amazon Drygoods if you want a finished costume as opposed to the materials for making one. Carol ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 6 Dec 1996 09:55:00 GMT From: "Chandler, Sally A." Subject: Fortuny Dresses What are Fortuny dresses? Sally Ann ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 6 Dec 1996 09:58:00 GMT From: "Chandler, Sally A." Subject: Re: Dolls I've seen some. If there are 100+ at the V&A they're certainly not all on show. I went a couple of weeks ago looking for books and pictures. I didn't find anything just about the V&A collection (but that doesn't mean it doesn't exist - just that I didn't find it on a bust Saturday before Christmas). Reference is in made in a number of books but I'm not sufficiently organised to have the references I'm afraid. There are a couple of dolls in the textile gallery - I think they are Mr. and Mrs. Clapham and you just want to pick them up and love them, although they're not terribly pretty - it's just knowing what they are and that they're there and the urge to look under the skirts etc! There is a single postcard available in the shop but it is of a doll now lodged in the Museum of Childhood (I think that's it's name) in Bethnel Green. I think there are more dolls there although I suppose they'd concentrate on toys rather than fashion dolls. Sally Ann The Historical Clothing Company s.a.chandler@shu.ac.uk ---------- From: Margaret Rae Carignan To: Multiple recipients of list H-COSTUME Subject: Re: Dolls Date: 05 December 1996 13:31 I just heard about a collection of fashion dolls, made in the 18th century with descriptions of dressed worn by actual people ("Gown worn at the assemblies in Bath, 1782" type things) at the V&A. Apparently there are over 100 of these that were all made by one 18th century woman! Has anyone ever seen these dolls? Is there a book about them or anything? Why have I not heard of these before? Perhaps they are common knowledge to people who specialize in this period, and I'm getting all goosebumpy for nothing. Info? Help! Meg/Francesca ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 6 Dec 1996 12:34:16 GMT From: Victoriana- Resources for Victorian Living Subject: Re: Help? At 12:04 PM 12/5/96 -0700, you wrote: >I am looking for information on where to purchase period costumes for >the 1850's - 1890's. Can anyone give me a company to call? >Thanks! ----------------------------- There is a list of sources on the web site "Victoriana-Resources for Victorian Living" on the shop "costume" page: http://www.victoriana.com/cost.html There are links to both repro companies and original antique clothing companies. ***************************************************** Joanne Haug "Victoriana-Resources for Victorian Living" http://www.victoriana.com and "Reflections of the Past, Antique Costume & Textiles" http://www.victoriana.com/antiques registry@victoriana.com Voice/Fax(216)835-6924 ***************************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 6 Dec 1996 08:51:25 -0500 From: Astrida E B Schaeffer Subject: Re: lederhosen > And if you mispronounce "lederhosen" as many do as "leiderhosen",it means > "singing pants." I was so informed by German speaking costumer I worked with > once. Unfortunately that has been an image that has stuck with me. > > Kij > I couldn't resist. In order to mean "singing pants", it would be pronounced "liederhosen" . If you reverse the i and e (leiderhosen), what you actually get is "alas pants" or "unfortunately pants". Which is equally funny... Ain't language grand? ***************************************************************************** Astrida Schaeffer "All life on Earth is a fairy tale in which outlandish creatures pursue impossible lives" - Rutherford Platt ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 6 Dec 1996 08:59:31 -0600 From: Jane Bretz Subject: Baptismal Gown My best friend used the Victorian Christening gown from Folkware, to do such a dress. However, beware the sleeve and bodice can be a bit too small for a real baby. I think they intended for it to be used on dolls, more than real people. It was a gorgeous dress when finished. Jane Bretz ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 6 Dec 1996 10:30:10 -0500 From: aleed Subject: Re: Fortuny Dresses On Fri, 6 Dec 1996, Chandler, Sally A. wrote: For all those out there who don't know about Fortuny, there's a website about him with a couple of pictures of his dresses: http://www.well.com/user/vision/proust/fortuny.html Drea > What are Fortuny dresses? > > Sally Ann > ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 6 Dec 1996 16:15:13 UT From: Rebecca Plummer Subject: This is a forwarded message. Please respond to Eric personally and not to me. ****************************************************************************** ************* ESonderg@aol.com I have a 1940 black tuxedo. I need all the accessories for it and wondered if you have any or know of who may. The tux is pants, jacket, and vest. It takes suspenders. I do not have the suspenders, tie, shirt, cufflinks, or cummerbund (does this type tux use one?). I assume I can use my black dress shoes with it. I want the accessories to match the style and, if possible, the period. It's a plain tuxedo made of thick wool. The label says Richman Brothers. I appreciate any info you may have. Thank you. Eric Sondergeld ESonderg@aol.com Collinsville, CT ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 6 Dec 1996 08:59:30 -0800 From: Agnes Gawne Subject: Re: Baptismal Gown Reply to: RE>Baptismal Gown There is a set of books by Martha Pullen about Heirloom Sewing - (as well as a magazine which I think is also called Heirloom Sewing). These include lots of french hand sewing, lace insertion, etc. but I know there are patterns for Baptismal gowns in them as well as lots of frilly dresses. There are usually a lot of ads in the back of the magazines that may have additional sources. You may have seen her shows on Public Television. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 6 Dec 1996 09:18:00 -0800 From: "Wichmann, David" Subject: How Much Have I Learned? Just to see if I have learned anything from you experts ... Did anyone see the *Star Trek: Voyager* episode for last week in which Q takes Janeway to a Civil War setting? I do not consider myself anything of an expert, but it seems to me that they had the costumes off by a decade or so, and possibly mixed decades. Am I learning? David Wichmann Sunnyvale. CA ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 6 Dec 1996 12:27:07 -0500 From: RMITCHELL@WASHJEFF.EDU Subject: Re: Fortuny Dresses France issued a stamp honoring Fortuny in the mid- 1950's, showing one of his pleated gowns. - A collection of costume/clothing/cloth-related stamps (which could be endless both in number and variety) might be an interesting sidelight for some of you costume/clothing historians. Regards - Lloyd Mitchell, costumer's husband ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 6 Dec 1996 11:50:29 -0600 From: Noelle Nicol Subject: HI. If you are in the US, either Gingiss or Selix should have the best selection of shirts, etc. to go with just about any tux you can think of. However, if I remember correctly, the pre WW2 tuxes still took starched dickies and tab collars over a collarless shirt. I know they have cufflinks, Tie-able ties, and proper suspenders. (I have bought several sets for male acquaintances.) in a full range of colors and patterns. For your needs I would suggest good old basic black, however. . . Yours, Noelle ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 6 Dec 1996 18:56:02 GMT From: Victoriana- Resources for Victorian Living Subject: Re: Baptismal Gown At 08:59 AM 12/6/96 -0800, you wrote: > Reply to: RE>Baptismal Gown > >There is a set of books by Martha Pullen about Heirloom Sewing .............. >You may have seen her shows on Public Television. ================================================= Martha Pullen also has a website at http://www.sa.ua.edu/brent/msr.htm ***************************************************** Joanne Haug "Victoriana-Resources for Victorian Living" http://www.victoriana.com and "Reflections of the Past, Antique Costume & Textiles" http://www.victoriana.com/antiques registry@victoriana.com Voice/Fax(216)835-6924 ***************************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 6 Dec 1996 14:09:44 -0500 From: Gaelscot@AOL.COM Subject: fortuny pleats Here is my untutored contribution to the woman looking for ideas on how to recreate Fortuny dresses. A few years ago, I was in Chicago for a professional conference and I snuck out to shop at one of their amazing department stores. Sorry to say, though it made a big impression on me, I can't remember the name. Anyway, in one of the dress salons I came upon some gorgeous dresses that looked, to me anyway, exactly like Fortuny gowns. They were long, columnar, sleeveless rayon things like chitons that were made with thousands of tiny pleats. They cost about $100, if I remember, and definitely less than $200. I didn't buy one -- too expensive, nowhere to wear it, and not quite brave enough anyway -- but I sure remember them. The pleats, to me, looked like matchstick "pleats" you see on Indian cotton skirts. There are lots of ways to make them. I have a very thin cotton chemise I wear with Norman garb, and I pleat it by hanging it dry and then twisting it lengthwise, first into a rope and then into a little ball. I put it into a drawer that way and just shake it out right before I put it on -- the effect is incredibly tiny pleats, not untidy wrinkles. The person who told me how to do this said it was done that way in period, but I can't vouch for it. (This same person said to twist the garment while it was still damp, but I don't see a difference in the final appearance and I am paranoid about mildew.) I wonder if Fortuny's "secret" method is actually this simple? Weren't his dresses supposed to be kept in hat boxes, or something? Anyway, these dresses had a very soft and clingy drape, nothing like the crisp things Issey Miyakey (sp?) designs. Gail Finke/gaelscot@aol.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 6 Dec 1996 16:22:00 GMT From: Mrs C S Yeldham Subject: Pants Is that why so many lieder are leider? Sorry, couldn't resist. I would join Sally in her memories of gym knickers, which were black sateen knickers in our case (satin finish cotton). A fetishists delight, and almost as good as the split-leg skirts we wore for hockey (sort of like culottes but came to the top of the thigh). Loathsome garments, designed to make the girl feel hideous, but have achieved a whole fetishistic culture around them! I think in many boys schools where uniforms are still worn, young boys still wear short-leg trousers in England. Caroline ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 6 Dec 1996 12:35:06 -0800 From: Susan Fatemi Subject: pleating I bought a pleated scarf from an artist/designer last xmas, and she gave it to me twisted into knot. It seems like the same basic method for broomsticking skirts. I saw a couple of *gorgeous* very finely pleated silk scarves recently -- the instructions for re-pleating them after washing (and silk, like cotton has to be re-pleated *every* time it's washed.) were to "wrap the scarf around an 8-10 qt pot (!), spray moisten, scrunch into the tiniest pleats you can manage, and let dry. Tape the ends if necessary to hold in place." There was an article in "Victoria" several years ago about a woman in N.Y. who had tried to re-create the Fortuny look. She wouldn't list her exact method, but they did look like they had been twist-pleated. She found the patent drawings for the "machine" he used for his pleating, but there were no instructions! I save the article and can look up the date if anyone is interested. ONe thing she did as Fortuny did was sew glass beads along the bottom of the dress to weight it down a little. The method described below seems to be similar to the method used for arashi shibori dyeing -- only you squirt dyes over the pole-wrapped, scrunched fabric. (and thanks for the clear instructions) Susan Fatemi susanf@eerc.berkeley.edu >Date: Thu, 5 Dec 1996 22:26:07 -0500 >From: No Name >Subject: Re: pleat permanicity (?) > >I have pleated a lot of silk to closely resemble Fortuny. It is a lot of >work, but worth it. You caned wrap it around a pvc pole, about 8". and >scrunch it down and then pour very hot water and vinegar over it and let it >dry. I prefer to wrap the fabric very tightly with large rubber bands or the >tourniquets that Drs. use. You fasten the fabric to something stable with a >C-clamp and wrap the bands very tightly around the fabric. I can get 45" to >the size of a nickel. Then I wet it with very hot water and let it dry, with >help from short times in the microwave and also in a warmer that I never use >for its intended purpose. I repleat it several times in order to get the >really fine pleats. For my daughters wedding, my daughter and I painted thin >charmeuse and then pleated it for ten bridesmaids dresses. They were all >different colors and cording was wrapped around each dress in many different >ways. I gave the dresses to them in small hat boxes and they were twisted >like Fortuny did and that is the girls store them. I wish that they were >permanent, but they are not. I've always been told that silk cannot be >permanently pleated and Mary McFadden uses polyester. Hope this helps. Toni > ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 6 Dec 1996 15:58:23 -0500 From: Kirk Albrecht M311 Subject: Re: Pants In a message dated 96-12-06 15:44:10 EST, csy20688@GGR.CO.UK (Mrs C S Yeldham) writes: << would join Sally in her memories of gym knickers, which were black sateen knickers in our case (satin finish cotton). >> I liked our gym outfits. They were light blue. It was a one peice that snapped up the front, from the waist. The bottom was like shorts but they had a elastic peice inside the leg. You know so regardless of what you did the boys couldn't see your underwear. I liked it better then the regular shorts. Kelly Albrecht m311@aol.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 6 Dec 1996 16:04:07 -0500 From: Sharron Fina Subject: pleats Hello, I have several "broomstick" (voile) skirts and I twist them straight from the washer, tie them in a loose knot, and leave them on top of the dryer as I do the rest of the wash. 24 hours doesn't cause any problems with mildew, and the heat from the dryer tends to make them dry faster anyway, especially if you turn them over after a couple loads are dried. It's kind of "recycling" the heat thrown out from the dryer. Sharron Fina sfina@retina.anatomy.upenn.edu ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 6 Dec 1996 18:27:11 -0400 From: Marsha Hamilton Subject: Re: Baptismal Gown The name of the magazine is Sew Beautiful. I had a subscription several years ago. There are several heirloom sewing magazines being published now. They have beautiful projects. After I has still thinking about making up that size 4 party dress pattern for my now size 14 daughter, I realized I didn't yet have the time to take up heirloom sewing. That's why God invented grandchildren! Marsha >There is a set of books by Martha Pullen about Heirloom Sewing - (as well as >a magazine which I think is also called Heirloom Sewing). These include lots >of french hand sewing, lace insertion, etc. but I know there are patterns >for Baptismal gowns in them as well as lots of frilly dresses. There are >usually a lot of ads in the back of the magazines that may have additional >sources. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 6 Oct 1996 14:39:22 -0700 From: Margo Anderson Subject: Re: Pants At 03:58 PM 12/6/96 -0500, you wrote: >I liked our gym outfits. Really? you're the only person I've ever known to say that! Ours were hideous, a one peice baby romper in navy polyester doubleknit. Yecch!! Our gym teacher's entire grading system was based on how clearly your gym clothes were labelled and how well your look matched her ideal. I really !@#$%^&* her off when winter came and they said we could wear navy tights....mine had runs in the knees which she snottily told me to mend, so I mended them by embroidering butterflies and flowers over the runs! > > ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 6 Dec 1996 15:46:55 -0800 From: Alison Kondo Subject: Thanks & questions Thank you for all the information on my questions on "Marron" colour & the short pants. Since I'm not much of a cook, I had somehow got the idea that marron was a cherry rather than a chestnut & was surprised that two simialr sounding colours, marron & marron glace, could be so different. The gym shorts discussion brought back memories ...although I went to school in the days when polyester was king. Our gym shorts were skin tight navy blue doubleknit poly. & looked ugly on everyone. They were topped with a horizontally striped navy & white t-shirt, again in poly. knit. Ugh. alison ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 6 Dec 1996 19:15:03 -0500 From: Gretchen M Beck Subject: Re: German Costume Book (fwd) Gretchen Beck Computing Services Carnegie Mellon University ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: 05 Dec 96 10:07:48 EST From: "<" <@BROWNVM.brown.edu:Denise_Mahaffey@MHSMAIL.GIT.GULFAERO.COM> To: owner-h-costume@BROWNVM.brown.edu Cc: "\"Penny E. Ladnier\"" Subject: RE: German Costume Book I would be very interested in any thing you might find in that book on the Tudor period. I am attempting to do some pretty intensive research on Anne of Cleves and in particular the two portraits I have found that were done by Holbein for Henry VIII. The black and white is very difficult to find and the head pieces she is wearing would be a benefit as well. I have someone whom could do some translation for me if I could get copies of the appropriate documentation. I would be happy to pay for the copies and the postage if necessary. Or if you can post them to a web page all the better. Is there any info on the undergarments they were wearing during that time period. Anne has a very distinctive chemise and what I am trying to reproduce, I would like to be as close to the actual as possible. Please let me know if you can help. I would appreciate it more that you could know. The area I live in has a really substandard library and inter-library loans take months. Many Thanks, Denise Denise_Mahaffey@mshmail.git.gulfaero.com ------------------------------ End of H-COSTUME Digest - 5 Dec 1996 to 6 Dec 1996 ************************************************** From ???@??? Mon Dec 09 10:47:07 1996 Received: from brownvm.brown.edu by mail.math.TU-Berlin.DE with SMTP id AA19362 (5.67b8/IDA-1.5 for ); Sun, 8 Dec 1996 06:02:43 +0100 Message-Id: <199612080502.AA19362@mail.math.TU-Berlin.DE> Received: from BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU by BROWNVM.brown.edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with BSMTP id 8908; Sun, 08 Dec 96 00:00:22 EST Received: from BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU (NJE origin LISTSERV@BROWNVM) by BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 1369; Sun, 8 Dec 1996 00:00:21 -0500 Date: Sun, 8 Dec 1996 00:00:18 -0500 Reply-To: Historic Costume List Sender: Historic Costume List From: Automatic digest processor Subject: H-COSTUME Digest - 6 Dec 1996 to 7 Dec 1996 To: Recipients of H-COSTUME digests There are 10 messages totalling 324 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. German Costume Book (fwd) 2. Introduction and Questions 3. Baptismal Gowns 4. H-COSTUME Digest - 5 Dec 1996 to 6 Dec 1996 5. Men's Formalwear 6. corset closure 7. Handbook of German Costume 8. Introducing 9. Liberty & Co., Ltd. 10. men's dress 1880 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 6 Dec 1996 21:14:48 -0700 From: Julie Adams Subject: Re: German Costume Book (fwd) >I am attempting to do some pretty intensive research >on Anne of Cleves and in particular the two portraits I have found that >were done by Holbein for Henry VIII. The black and white is very >difficult to find and the head pieces she is wearing would be a benefit >as well. Inside an embroidered "V" is the message "A BON FINE" on the blackwork embroidered band on her headpiece. A good view of it can be seen in "Lace in Fashion, 16th to 20th centuries" by Pat Earnshaw US ISBN 0713446420, by Batsford, LTD. In the book the band's blackwork embroidery is mislabeled "drawnwork" The front edge of the band has a row of pearls all along them. The headdress is the one of the main parts of her costume that is usually not done quite right in reproductions. There are many other examples of this headress style in various woodcuts of the period, but I've never seen one worn with a great jeweled and bugle-bead fringed goo-gaw on one side as is seen in this picture. >Is there any info on the undergarments they were wearing during that >time period. Anne has a very distinctive chemise and what I am trying >to reproduce, I would like to be as close to the actual as possible. Doesn't Anne wear a partlet decorated with horizontal bands of drawn whitework? As an undergarment she might have worn a chemise similar to those shown in the Wenceslas Bible. It looks like a slip, and is a simple tube gathered into a band just above the bust. Often has spagetti straps. There are several styles, but this is seen in a variety of woodcuts from all over the Holy Roman Empire. She might also have worn a longsleeved shift, and that would have also had a low neckline invisible from the outside of the dress. This dress has a standard German placket front and sleeves similar to many that are seen in German and Flemish paintings and woodcuts of the period. The big distinction is that the placket is colored and hard to make out. There are numerous other examples of the "lace across the front" gown with colored plackets, but the way this dress is decorated, it is not as clear. Also the white front plackets with the gold embroidered bands across the breast are much easier to recognize due to color contrast. The one thing that I am never really sure of is whether the band that hangs from the waist is really a skirt opening or a decorative hanging belt. I tend to think it is a belt, as I have seen many belts hanging and decorated in that fashion, and zero dresses that were split in the front and overlapped. I have only seen it reproduced as an overlapped skirt which sort of looks robe-like. But I am not convinced that that is correct. Does anyone have any opinions? documentation? Denise, if you have any particular questions about German Renaissance Costume, I would be happy to answer them here or off-line. Julie Adams ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 7 Dec 1996 03:15:56 -0700 From: Mary Walter Subject: Introduction and Questions Greetings to the Historical Costuming List Members: My name is Mary Walter and a new subscriber to the list. I am currently trying to research various areas of Elizabethan costuming. I have some experience in the period construction of corsets, farthingales, bum rolls, the "french" cut bodices, and such techniques as cartridge pleating. Currently, I am trying to perfect ruff making and looking for any information I can find on the construction, patterns, or possbile pictures of supportasses/robbatos (sp?) and standing collars. Re: Supportasses--All I have been able to find so far is a picture contained in Four Hundred Years of Fashion featuring clothing from the V&A Meuseam collection. There is a supportasse constructed of fabric over a "cardboard" frame. In a second instance there is a painting (I can't as of now recall the name or location of the picture) that shows a wire robbato on a women from about the right period. I seem to remember it is by a Dutch painter featuring several people, and it shows a rear view of a woman's robbato. The ruff it supports would seem to be about the size of a dinner plate. Thirdly I've seen a line drawing of a horseshoe shaped affair (there were patterns of fleurs formed by the wire within the "hoseshoe" frame). The third instance I attempted to construct in wire (I'm experienced with some metal working) of the horseshoe frame. It would have been worn more for a collar support that a ruff. This is not exactly what I was looking for but it was the best I could find. The frame was inadequate because it failed to account for the correct curvature at the back of the neck...both vertically and horizantally. I'm aware the frames were laced to either the chemise or ties included at the back of the bodice for the purpose of securing the supportasse. If anyone can guide me to references on construction or good illustrations of supportasses I would appreciate it immensely. I'm also VERY interested in the construction of standing collars. Thanks for your consideration... Mary Walter Mary Walter ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 7 Dec 1996 10:36:55 -0500 From: Mary Smith Subject: Re: Baptismal Gowns The current (DEC) issue of CREATIVE NEEDLE has a bunch of frilly christening gowns, and is full of ads for making same. It is also very likely that your local or state historical society has christening gowns by the megaton. They may be available for study. Have fun, Mary Denise Smith ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 7 Dec 1996 12:01:57 +0000 From: Maggie Percival Subject: Re: H-COSTUME Digest - 5 Dec 1996 to 6 Dec 1996 Caroline wrote: > >I think in many boys schools where uniforms are still worn, young boys >still wear short-leg trousers in England. Until just over a year ago this was the case with the school where my two boys go up to a certain age (I think it was around seven or eight). Now they have the choice although I admit that my boys still wear short leg trousers (one of them is not quite seven the other four and a half) and both actually quite like wearing them - the younger one wears shorts by preference at home even in winter. -- Maggie Percival ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 7 Dec 1996 11:53:49 EST From: Carol Kocian Subject: Men's Formalwear I've seen cufflink & stud sets at formalwear shops as well as men's accessory shops. (Studs would be the "buttons" for the shirt, they went through buttonholes/eyelets on both sides of the shirt rather than being sewn on one layer like a button.) Studs are also available at antique shops, but it's hard to get a matching set. Formal shirts require three or four. The following is my knowledge about men's formalwear, and I'd love to hear what others know! One would wear either a vest or a cummerbund, not both. It would match the tie. A tuxedo actually has a short jacket, similar to a regular suit coat. If it's got tails, it's called "tails", and is not a tuxedo. The matching tie & cummerbund or tie & vest sets in colors other than black or white are a relatively recent invention. (second half of the 20th century) Miss Manners frowns upon them, but frequently writes that "everyone" knows what proper formal wear is. (Sorry, I lived through pastel tux's for prom wear. My knowledge is sketchy.) White tie is worn with tails. Black tie is worn with a tuxedo. With black tie, a regular collar shirt is worn, not a wing-collar shirt. Wing collars with black tie expose the black band of the tie, and that makes the neck look dirty. Tails and tuxedos may mix at the same event, at least according to a 1920's illustration I saw. In the last five years or so, there have been a lot more developments in formalwear for men. Just look at the awards shows! This is a good topic for this time of year, since we're all going to formal parties for the holidays. :) Because of the Mardi Gras season, I read, New Orleans has the most men's formalwear owned per capita of any American city. -Carol Kocian ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 7 Dec 1996 14:00:37 -0500 From: Elizabeth McMahon Subject: Re: corset closure On Wed, 4 Dec 1996, Kirk Albrecht M311 wrote: > In a message dated 96-12-04 04:28:32 EST, Becci_Plummer@MSN.COM (Rebecca > Plummer) writes: > > << Does anyone know if there is any documentation for corsets to close in the > front with laces as well as in the back? >> > > I saw a picture the otherday where it laced on the side, from the waist to up > under the arm. I don't have much expereince with corsets. Is that way very > common? And which time period would that be? What period in particular are you looking for? In the late 19th C., so called "abdominal" corsets lace to about the waist (from the bottom up) on both sides, just to the front of the side seam. These corsets were probably designed to accommodate pregnancy. Most other late 19th C. corsets fasten up the front, but not with laces. They were frequently still referred to as "a pair of corsets", probably because when unfastened, they were two pieces. I believe some of the "Regency" (er, late 18th-early 19th C.) corsets did lace up both back and front, but few of those were heavily boned. Beth McMahon ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 7 Dec 1996 11:14:57 -0800 From: Diana Habra Subject: Re: Handbook of German Costume Hello fellow costume enthusiasts! I just got a post from Fred Struthers who states that he does not have the Hottenroth *Handbook of German Costume*. He said he did not know it has been reprinted. As I would still like to get this book, does anyone know where else I can get it from? Please let me know. Thanks in advance!! Rose :~> ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 7 Dec 1996 17:35:22 -0800 From: IAM MAGAZINE Subject: Introducing I A M is one of the finest magazines available edited exclusively for the special needs of motion pictures, television, recording, live theatre, models, talents, performers, casting directors, agents, photographers, stylists,... and all professionals working in the fields of modeling, acting, entertainment, and....WORLD WIDE !! DO YOU KNOW WHERE YOUR NEXT JOB MIGHT COME FROM??? Each issue of I A M is packed with practical information for those who create work in these fields: Reports on funding and career opportunities for motion pictures, television, recording, live theatre, art, fashion industry, models, talents, performers, casting directors, agents, photographers, stylists, etc .... Complete listing of FEATURE FILMS in Preparation and Pre-Production. Complete Listing of Prime Time Network Programs. Comprehensive up-to-date casting information in equity stage, chorus calls, stage, film, TV shows, commercials, modeling, music, dance, clubs, etc...... Feature articles on the business of entertainment, fashion, health, profile, .... AND MUCH, MUCH MORE For any questions call us at: US & Other Countries (407) 773-3615 CANADA : Helen Nightingale (416) 927-8028 GERMANY: Fred Reimer 040/ 529 2173 AUSTRALIA: Terry Cass or Shelley Rawson 67 55 75 9099 Fax: (407) 773-9951 Email: iam@mail.wwinternet.net Net Address: http://www.wwinternet.net/iam/magazine.htm ********************************************************* To submit all news, press releases, profiles, manuscripts, articles, notices, etc.... Via Fax: (407) 773-9951 Attn: Information Center E-mail: iam@mail.wwinternet.net OR Mail to: I A M Magazine Attn: Information Center P. O. Box 523 Melbourne, FL 32902-0523 ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 8 Dec 1996 00:07:04 GMT From: Victoriana- Resources for Victorian Living Subject: Liberty & Co., Ltd. Hello, I just received a package of "goodies" from England (antique clothing + more antique clothing ="goodies") and I have a question. Included in the package was an Edwardian evening bodice with a "Liberty & Co., Ltd." label. I know this was a prominent department store in London, but this label also says: "ARTISTIC & HISTORIC COSTUME STUDIO." Does anyone have knowledge about this? Did Liberty & Co. actively supply theaters with costume or did they have a department just for fancy dress balls? Thanks. ***************************************************** Joanne Haug "Victoriana-Resources for Victorian Living" http://www.victoriana.com and "Reflections of the Past, Antique Costume & Textiles" http://www.victoriana.com/antiques registry@victoriana.com Voice/Fax(216)835-6924 ***************************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 7 Dec 1996 19:47:31 -0500 From: Tess Parrish Subject: men's dress 1880 My brother is writing the biography of a prominent lawyer who practised in Philadelphia PA from 1850 till his death in 1904. It is easy enough to find pictures of winter or formal clothing of the period, but his question is: What would this man wear in court while pleading a case, or in his office while doing his research? How about in the summer? Philadelphia is no hotter now than it was then, and there was of course no air conditioning. Any ideas? Thanks, Tess ------------------------------ End of H-COSTUME Digest - 6 Dec 1996 to 7 Dec 1996 ************************************************** From ???@??? Mon Dec 09 10:47:08 1996 Received: from brownvm.brown.edu by mail.math.TU-Berlin.DE with SMTP id AA22048 (5.67b8/IDA-1.5 for ); Mon, 9 Dec 1996 06:01:29 +0100 Message-Id: <199612090501.AA22048@mail.math.TU-Berlin.DE> Received: from BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU by BROWNVM.brown.edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with BSMTP id 0730; Mon, 09 Dec 96 00:00:33 EST Received: from BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU (NJE origin LISTSERV@BROWNVM) by BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 8318; Mon, 9 Dec 1996 00:00:32 -0500 Date: Mon, 9 Dec 1996 00:00:31 -0500 Reply-To: Historic Costume List Sender: Historic Costume List From: Automatic digest processor Subject: H-COSTUME Digest - 7 Dec 1996 to 8 Dec 1996 To: Recipients of H-COSTUME digests There are 3 messages totalling 97 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. H-COSTUME Digest - 6 Dec 1996 to 7 Dec 1996 2. Liberty & Co., Ltd. 3. Re Liberty & Co., Ltd ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 8 Dec 1996 00:51:17 -0500 From: Lisa Bauer Subject: Re: H-COSTUME Digest - 6 Dec 1996 to 7 Dec 1996 I am happy to say that Alter Years (formerly Raiments of the purple mailorder catalogue, though same ownership) is having their yearly sale. The date of the happy event is Sunday, December 15. Everything in the store is 15% off. For those of you costumers lucky enough to live in Southern California, their storefront is located on Colorado Blvd. in Pasadena between Rosemead and Michillinda. Take the 210 and use the above exits. I don't have their number off hand, but call information in Pasadena. Area code is 818. I've known people to travel from as far away as San Francisco and San Diego to attent this event. Enthusiastic as I sound, I do not work for Raiments, I just am a satisfied customer/costumer. Besides goods, they offer advice and great ideas. Bring a picture of your costumes for their "Wall of Fame." Regards, Lisa ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 8 Dec 1996 16:29:13 -0800 From: "R.L. Shep" Subject: Re: Liberty & Co., Ltd. Victoriana- Resources for Victorian Living wrote: > > Hello, > I just received a package of "goodies" from England > (antique clothing + more antique clothing ="goodies") and I > have a question. > > Included in the package was an Edwardian evening bodice > with a "Liberty & Co., Ltd." label. I know this was a prominent > department store in London, but this label also says: > "ARTISTIC & HISTORIC COSTUME STUDIO." > > Does anyone have knowledge about this? Did Liberty & Co. actively > supply theaters with costume or did they have a department > just for fancy dress balls? Thanks. > > ***************************************************** > Joanne Haug > "Victoriana-Resources for Victorian Living" > http://www.victoriana.com > and > "Reflections of the Past, Antique Costume & Textiles" > http://www.victoriana.com/antiques > registry@victoriana.com > Voice/Fax(216)835-6924 > ***************************************************** Liberty is very much still there I just bought something from them last month when I was in London. They have some of the BEST textiles & clothing availalbe including Macintosh designs that they are still producing. As to your other questions.... perhaps some of the UK members of the list can give yu a better idea of that. ~!~ R.L. Shep p.s. I have an English friend who says " When I die I want to go to Liberty's" ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 8 Dec 1996 21:02:25 -0500 From: Mary Subject: Re Liberty & Co., Ltd Joanne Haug wrote >...an Edwardian evening bodice >with a "Liberty & Co., Ltd." label. I know this was a prominent >department store in London, but this label also says: >"ARTISTIC & HISTORIC COSTUME STUDIO." > >Does anyone have knowledge about this? Did Liberty & Co. actively >supply theaters with costume or did they have a department >just for fancy dress balls? Yes Liberty did supply theatres. They often had adverts placed in the program for their "Art Fabrics" used in the production. However what you may have is one of Liberty's garments based on historical designs. In 1905 amongst other such designs they produced an evening dress based on one of the 17c and a "Charles the second" home gown. Mary --- ------------------------------ End of H-COSTUME Digest - 7 Dec 1996 to 8 Dec 1996 ************************************************** From ???@??? Tue Dec 10 09:46:23 1996 Received: from brownvm.brown.edu by mail.math.TU-Berlin.DE with SMTP id AA29611 (5.67b8/IDA-1.5 for ); Tue, 10 Dec 1996 06:03:39 +0100 Message-Id: <199612100503.AA29611@mail.math.TU-Berlin.DE> Received: from BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU by BROWNVM.brown.edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with BSMTP id 3180; Tue, 10 Dec 96 00:02:40 EST Received: from BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU (NJE origin LISTSERV@BROWNVM) by BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 4476; Tue, 10 Dec 1996 00:02:40 -0500 Date: Tue, 10 Dec 1996 00:02:37 -0500 Reply-To: Historic Costume List Sender: Historic Costume List From: Automatic digest processor Subject: H-COSTUME Digest - 8 Dec 1996 to 9 Dec 1996 To: Recipients of H-COSTUME digests There are 2 messages totalling 68 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. Victorian Costuming 2. Victorian/Edwardian dress/hair ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 9 Dec 1996 10:54:50 0000 From: mishka Subject: Victorian Costuming Hello, My name is Michelle Carrington and I am a sophomore at Wells College in upstate NY and I am working on a project to get grant money to restore 50 Victorian jackets. My partner for this project and I are trying to gain information on costs to repair, clean and store the garments. We are also curious as to the cost to have them appraised. We also need to know what type of "containers" they need to be stored in and how much the cost would be. Your help would be greatly appreciated if you could give me any information on any of these areas. Thank you! ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 9 Dec 1996 19:23:54 EST From: Teri Simonds Subject: Victorian/Edwardian dress/hair Hi, all... I'm new to the list and relatively new to historic costuming. My current area of interest is living history of the late Victorian/early Edwardian eras. I've done a little bit of research and it looks like there are some really good bibliographies on the Web. I suspect that I'll need to find a university library for most of the info. I want. I do have some questions which I'm sure you can answer. 1. I recently volunteered at our one of the local plantation's Christmas tour. I didn't do the living history, because I wouldn't have been able to come up with what I would consider an appropriate costume. For the Victorian and Edwardian interpretations, it appeared that none of the women, young or old, were corseted (or at least tightly corseted). Would this have been normal? From what I've read, it seems that the norm was tight corsets, at least for the upper class. Is there any correlation between economic status and corseted waist size? 2. What would a woman of solid middle to upper middle class have worn for everyday clothing? What would special or fancy dress consisted of? If this has been discussed in a book, feel free to point me to the reference. 3. Is there any reference (book, as opposed to periodical or theses, as I don't think I could get access to them) on how hair was worn in that era? More importantly, are there any instructions on how you can do it yourself? I'm horrible at styling my hair by just looking at a picture (unless it is a step-by-step diagram). I'm fortunate in that I have a ton of old photos of my great-grandmother during that period and probably can get a lot of information from them. Any hints on how to reproduce clothing from a photograph? I suspect, though, that it will be beyond my technical expertise. Thanks in advance for your help! Teri S. teri_simonds@sterling.com ------------------------------ End of H-COSTUME Digest - 8 Dec 1996 to 9 Dec 1996 ************************************************** From ???@??? Wed Dec 11 13:23:51 1996 Received: from brownvm.brown.edu by mail.math.TU-Berlin.DE with SMTP id AA08320 (5.67b8/IDA-1.5 for ); Wed, 11 Dec 1996 06:03:28 +0100 Message-Id: <199612110503.AA08320@mail.math.TU-Berlin.DE> Received: from BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU by BROWNVM.brown.edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with BSMTP id 5623; Wed, 11 Dec 96 00:02:30 EST Received: from BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU (NJE origin LISTSERV@BROWNVM) by BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 9211; Wed, 11 Dec 1996 00:02:29 -0500 Date: Wed, 11 Dec 1996 00:02:24 -0500 Reply-To: Historic Costume List Sender: Historic Costume List From: Automatic digest processor Subject: H-COSTUME Digest - 9 Dec 1996 to 10 Dec 1996 To: Recipients of H-COSTUME digests There are 12 messages totalling 364 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. H-COSTUME Digest - 6 Dec 1996 to 7 Dec 1996 2. Victorian/Edwardian dress/hair (3) 3. England 4. H-COSTUME Digest - 8 Dec 1996 to 9 Dec 1996 (2) 5. corsets 6. Men's Formalwear (3) 7. UNSUBSCRIBE ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 10 Dec 1996 13:04:57 +0000 From: TEDDY Subject: Re: H-COSTUME Digest - 6 Dec 1996 to 7 Dec 1996 > Date: Sun, 8 Dec 1996 00:07:04 GMT > From: Victoriana- Resources for Victorian Living > Subject: Liberty & Co., Ltd. > Included in the package was an Edwardian evening bodice > with a "Liberty & Co., Ltd." label. I know this was a prominent > department store in London, but this label also says: > "ARTISTIC & HISTORIC COSTUME STUDIO." > > Does anyone have knowledge about this? Did Liberty & Co. actively > supply theaters with costume or did they have a department > just for fancy dress balls? Thanks. Liberties is still open. It's in Regent Street in London (England). I just got off the 'phone to the Liberty Press Office and Archive. They have a series of catalogues for this department, dating from 1890 up to 1905. By 1909 the name seems to have changed to "PICTURESQUE AND FANCY DRESS COSTUMES". The catalogues seem to deal specifically with Fancy dress costumes. They couldn't track down much in the books they had to hand, but did mention that they're open to the public. Anyone who can get there and who is interested, details are as follows. Opening times Weekdays: 9:30 am to 7:00 pm Saturdays: 9:30 am to 5:00 pm Address City of Wesminster Archives 10 St. Ann's Street LONDON SW1P 2XR England Tel: (0171) 798 2180 (Nearest Tube station: St. James Park) The contact name I was given when the press office gave me the number was Alison Kenny. Teddy teddy1@mdx.ac.uk ====================== Bibliographical Services Dept. * If a costume's worth * Middlesex University * making, it's worth * Bounds Green Road * making well enough * London, N11 2NQ * for every-day wear. * England ====================== Tel No.(0181) 362 6405 ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Dec 1996 09:55:33 -0400 From: Joy Pye-MacSwain Subject: Re: Victorian/Edwardian dress/hair Morning... > 3. Is there any reference (book, as opposed to periodical or > theses, as I don't think I could get access to them) on how hair was > worn in that era? More importantly, are there any instructions on > how you can do it yourself? I'm horrible at styling my hair by just > looking at a picture (unless it is a step-by-step diagram). You might try `Fashions in Hair he First Five Thousand Years' by Richard Corson. There are lots of good line drawings of hair styles worn in the 19th C. Accompanying the hair styles are descriptions of when and where ladies would have been worn the particular hair style. I hope that this helps. Joy Pye-MacSwain jkpyemac@peinet.pe.ca ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Dec 1996 14:28:10 GMT From: linda devault giuliani Subject: England Dear Fellow Historic Costume Friends: I have been on this list for several months now and have enjoyed it. I feel that some of you are good friends, and I know a lot about you having never met. On December 25, 1996 I am taking my family to London (from Ann Arbor, Michigan USA) for a 10 day vacation. I have noticed a lot of members of this list are from England. Perhaps some of you can answer a few question for this (first time visitor to Europe) avid historic novice. Some of my questions are: 1. Suggest some places I might visit in London related to historic costume. 2. Suggest places that might have reasonably priced historic costumes for sale (if I am allowed to bring them back to the USA, also?) 3. As a first time visitor to England, I am uneducated as to customs, areas of London to avoid and general do's and dont's in London and England as a whole. 4. I understand in the exchange rate is that a pound equals .60 US dollars. I would like to know what the individual paper money and coins are called. For instance, we have a nickle that is worth 5 cents, or five pennies; and 100 pennies make up a pound. Thank you so very much in advance for replying to my questions. I am going to a country where I am a complete stranger and already have had a lot of problems with my hotel reservation. I would love to learn how to avoid problems while visiting London and ejjoy our vacation as much as possible. Sincerely, Linda Devault Giuliani lindagiu@pipeline.com > ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Dec 1996 09:54:03 -0500 From: Heather Leigh Harrison Subject: Re: H-COSTUME Digest - 8 Dec 1996 to 9 Dec 1996 Greetings! I'll try to respond to two inquiries on the likes of Victorian garments, at once. To Michelle Carrington of Wells College who is trying to restore Victorian "jackets": I would recommend contacting the Metroploitan Museum of Art in NYC for their advice. Denita Sewell is the curator of the costume collection their and is very helpful in these matters. I don't have e-mail access information on the museum (though I'm sure it exists) but the telephone number is 212-879-5500. The costume library extension is 628. I'm not positive that that is where you would reach Denita, but I'm sure they can redirect your call. I would also suggest contacting Joan Severa who is a freelance historic costume consultant based in Wisconsin. She haswritten a fabulous book called "Dressed for the Photographer" which has wonderful photo's and descriptions of garments from the Victorian age. (Her dates and documentation are really extraordinary!) While this is her occupation (consultation on care and preservation of antique garments) rather than just a hobby, (ie. she's probably not interested in "free advice") I have heard from many sources that she is an extremely knowledgable and generous person, and she may be able to point you in the right direction for your answers. Her address is 5806 Pembroke Dr. Madison, WI 53711. To Teri Simonds with questions regarding "Victorian and Edwardian dress": In answer to your questions on corsetting - this largely depends on whether you're talking Victorian costume ( during the reign of Queen Victoria - typified from about 1840's to the early 1890's) or Edwardian costume (during the reign of Edward - generally the late 1890's until the first World War.) The two eras have a very different look and the amount and silhouette of corsetting depends on which era you're speaking of, as well as the social class of the wearer and the environment they are in. I feel the best book to describe the underlayers during these era's is Nora Waugh's "Corset's and Crinolines". Another book which looks good, though I've not honestly had a lot of time to pour over it, is "Victorians Unbuttoned" by Sarah Levitt. About hairstyles I would recommend "Modes of Hair and Headress" which is out of print, but regarded as a "bible" of hairstyles throughout history, so it can usually be found in libraries or universities. Unfortunately I don't know of any "how-to" books for these hairstyles. "Modes of hair.." has excellent pictures, but you need to be a bit skilled. There are also some great illustrations in "English Women's Clothing in the Nineteenth Century" by C. Willett Cunnington. (This has good descriptions of garments and accessories as well.) My last recommendation for who-wore-what-when, would be "Dressed for the Photographer" (already mentioned above) , "Costume in Detail" by Nancy Bradfield, and a book whose title escapes me, but it's something like Everyday Costume for the Working Class Man......or something like that. (Forgive me for not having it at my fingertips!) Also if you can get your hands on letters, diaries or ships logs (if you are in a coastal region) you can do some fun research on your own of what type of clothing women wore. As today, women tended to talk a bit about what they wanted, needed, were making or had seen - invaluable clues to a by-gone era. (Many museum's can access you to this kind of information - the plantation you visited may even have them in their archives or at the local historical society or library.) Happy searching and preparing - and I commend you for waiting to appear "appropriately clothed" until you know you really are!! ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Dec 1996 11:25:08 -0500 From: Sharon and/or Mikie Subject: corsets Hello all! I just thought I would put in my two cents about corsets lacing up the front or back. You didn't mention a specific time period, and I'm sure that this is much later than you bargained for, however, it is interesting. I was talking to my great grandmother, who was born in 1904. She worked in a clothing store as a teenager, and they sold corsets. She was working there when they came out with corsets that laced in the front, and everyone was thrilled! This leads me to believe that though there were front lacing corsets in earlier periods, they must have dissapeared for awhile toward the middle to end of the 19th century, or the excitment in the teens would not have been so apparant! Sharon ***************************** * * * DON'T MESS WITH TECHIES - * * * * THEY ALL CARRY KNIVES * * * ***************************** ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Dec 1996 11:56:47 -0500 From: Sharon and/or Mikie Subject: Re: Men's Formalwear > The matching tie & cummerbund or tie & vest sets in colors other >than black or white are a relatively recent invention. (second half >of the 20th century) Miss Manners frowns upon them, but frequently >writes that "everyone" knows what proper formal wear is. (Sorry, I >lived through pastel tux's for prom wear. My knowledge is sketchy.) > ] Hi I basically wrote the same response. However, I read that pre WWII formal wear COULD consist of other colours of ties for tux's. Shirts could be oflight grey, blue or even striped. Hmmmm... ANyone know for sure? Sharon ***************************** * * * DON'T MESS WITH TECHIES - * * * * THEY ALL CARRY KNIVES * * * ***************************** ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Dec 1996 12:01:42 -0500 From: Sharon and/or Mikie Subject: Re: Victorian/Edwardian dress/hair appeared that none of the women, young or old, were corseted (or at > least tightly corseted). Would this have been normal? From what > I've read, it seems that the norm was tight corsets, at least for > the upper class. Is there any correlation between economic status > and corseted waist size? I read that during this period, woman were very tightly corseted. The rule of thumb was that your waist size should be smaller that your age when you get married. And from what I've heard, they weren't getting married in their late 20's!!! > Sharon :) ***************************** * * * DON'T MESS WITH TECHIES - * * * * THEY ALL CARRY KNIVES * * * ***************************** ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Dec 1996 09:07:55 -0800 From: Frances Grimble Subject: Re: H-COSTUME Digest - 8 Dec 1996 to 9 Dec 1996 Another book which looks good, though > I've not honestly had a lot of time to pour over it, is "Victorians > Unbuttoned" by Sarah Levitt. _Victorians Unbuttoned_ is a very good book, but it is not about lingerie. It is about all types of clothing registered with the English patent office. Fran Grimble ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Dec 1996 10:12:56 -0800 From: Frances Grimble Subject: Re: Victorian/Edwardian dress/hair > > I read that during this period, woman were very tightly corseted. The rule > of thumb was that your waist size should be smaller that your age when you > get married. And from what I've heard, they weren't getting married in > their late 20's!!! This may have been a fashion ideal. But from my examination of existing Victorian and Edwardian clothing it was not usually a reality. Any more than the average 1990s woman has the same figure as a fashion model, or even dresses like one. Fran Grimble ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 Oct 1996 11:48:47 -0700 From: Margo Anderson Subject: Re: Men's Formalwear At 11:56 AM 12/10/96 -0500, you wrote: >> The matching tie & cummerbund or tie & vest sets in colors other >>than black or white are a relatively recent invention. (second half >>of the 20th century) Miss Manners frowns upon them, but frequently >>writes that "everyone" knows what proper formal wear is. (Sorry, I >>lived through pastel tux's for prom wear. My knowledge is sketchy.) >> >] >Hi >I basically wrote the same response. However, I read that pre WWII formal >wear COULD consist of other colours of ties for tux's. Shirts could be >oflight grey, blue or even striped. Hmmmm... ANyone know for sure? >Sharon Innovations in men's formalwear are nothing new. They are, however, usually championed by the formalwear manufacturers rather than the etiquetarians. The last innovation in formalwear to be accepted in all circles was the tuxedo, which was actually designed and worn as a casual evening suit by people who couldn't imagine not changing for dinner. Interestingly, my father, who was born in 1921, remembers his father owning a tuxedo which he wore for fairly informal evenings out, such as dinner and a movie. (They were not "upper class", either- my grandfather was a clerical employee in a real estate firm.) If you want your formalwear to be accepted in all circles, stick to the standard styles. Abundant information can be found in etiquette and wedding planning books. If you're renting, good news! the classic styles are usually the cheapest to rent, as the company can use them much longer than the trendy styles. O course, from a costuming standpoint, the many variation can be a goldmine for character expression. Imagine what a hoot you could have putting together a supremely vulgar ensemble! ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Dec 1996 16:16:23 -0600 From: Deb Subject: Re: Men's Formalwear >O course, from a costuming standpoint, the many variation can be a goldmine >for character expression. Imagine what a hoot you could have putting >together a supremely vulgar ensemble! Yes, but a lot of the fun would be lost since modern viewers wouldn't KNOW it was supremely vulgar! ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Dec 1996 23:33:42 -0500 From: Biggsk@AOL.COM Subject: UNSUBSCRIBE unscribe please, biggsk@aol.com ------------------------------ End of H-COSTUME Digest - 9 Dec 1996 to 10 Dec 1996 *************************************************** From ???@??? Thu Dec 12 12:57:26 1996 Received: from brownvm.brown.edu by mail.math.TU-Berlin.DE with SMTP id AA16819 (5.67b8/IDA-1.5 for ); Thu, 12 Dec 1996 06:03:32 +0100 Message-Id: <199612120503.AA16819@mail.math.TU-Berlin.DE> Received: from BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU by BROWNVM.brown.edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with BSMTP id 8028; Thu, 12 Dec 96 00:02:29 EST Received: from BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU (NJE origin LISTSERV@BROWNVM) by BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 5107; Thu, 12 Dec 1996 00:02:27 -0500 Date: Thu, 12 Dec 1996 00:02:23 -0500 Reply-To: Historic Costume List Sender: Historic Costume List From: Automatic digest processor Subject: H-COSTUME Digest - 10 Dec 1996 to 11 Dec 1996 To: Recipients of H-COSTUME digests There are 15 messages totalling 651 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. Victorian/Edwardian waist sizes 2. F.I.T. Pattern Exhibition (2) 3. OK... I'll bite.. Here's my introduction... 4. Fancy Dress (3) 5. German Costume Book (fwd) 6. pendelton trip report (2) 7. grad. schools (2) 8. corset covers 9. Fustian composition 10. What show is this? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 11 Dec 1996 14:00:12 +0100 From: Barbara Maren Winkler Subject: Re: Victorian/Edwardian waist sizes Sharon () writes: >get married. And from what I've heard, they weren't getting married in >their late 20's!!! Sorry to digress. But this may be interesting to some people. From what I've heard (talking about ca. 1870 to ca. 1900), yes, they (women) _were_ getting married in their late 20's; 29 was average age of marriage. This holds for Germany. Women's social status depended greatly on marriage, but there were more women than men these years (ca. 53%), and men generally married at a later age. Consequently, "the market was tight" for women who wanted (and needed!) to marry. Second, lacing fashions would very likely depend very much on _class_. Upper class/ aristocrat women (1-5% in Germany) would (maybe) lace very tightly for fashion reasons, to be "elegant". Middle class women (7-15% in Germany) would lace as tightly as would be "honourable", "modest", "proper", "decent" (which was the main ideal in this class). They'd usually wear black dresses above it, another fact you won't guess from just looking at fashion magazines of the time. Working class women (the huge majority) would usually also wear corsets but probably not in a way to restrict work. My source: "Frauenleben im 19. Jahrhundert" (Women's life in the 19th century) by Ingeborg Weber-Kellermann. Greetings to everyone! -- Barbara Maren Winkler barbara@math.tu-berlin.de ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Dec 1996 11:03:51 -0500 From: Kathleen Songal Subject: F.I.T. Pattern Exhibition It was mentioned a while back that the Fashion Institute of Technology in New York will be having an exhibition on the history of dress pattern making this spring. I have been unable to find out exact dates. This exhibition is not listed on their net page and they do not have an e-mail address that I could find. Does anyone know the dates of this show? Does anyone have any further details of what will be exhibited? Thanking you in advance, Kathy Songal ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Dec 1996 10:39:49 -0400 From: Rich Williamson Subject: OK... I'll bite.. Here's my introduction... I am the owner of Pierre's Costumes. I am also a professional make-up artist. I do just about anything in the fields of TV, film, theatre, parties, parades, photography, special events, team & corporate mascots, and way more. i got into this field somewhat due to my family. I have been a singer / actor for over 20 years. My father retired(early) from corporate life 15 years ago, and wanted to find something to keep him busy. My mother is an opera singer, producer and director. My father has been involved in stage managment, theatre group presidency, and anything technical. Costumes was a great life segway for them. My mother was directing a show 15 years ago when she went into Irvin Sterns Costumes (1900. Media, PA).; She needed costumes for a show. They told her that they might have problems since the store was for sale. .....They bought it and as they say...the rest is history. I rebeled against joining my family. I "did" theatre in college (mainly lighting, scenery, and sound) It was only after I had had an eight year career in sales and marketing that I decided to join the fold. Pierre's was for sale. this was a chance to own my own business, turn my hobby into a job, and leave the rat race. As you can see I took the leap. It was scary. It took many long hours, and lots of work at little or no pay. But I wouldn't change it for anything. Since I bought a great old store with many competant staff, I was quickly able to come up to speed. I am a voracious learner and reader and probably have most books on the subject of Make-up or costuming. I have been lucky enough to learn a lot from my parents (plus all those years of passive learning didn't hurt). I can now sew, pattern, measure and adapt. I have learned how to work with foam and to design mascots. My drawing skills (I was always a frustrated artist) have grown throughout the years). I have learned a lot of tricks from other costumers since we routinely meet with other members of the National Costumer Association (a group for the top costume rental / manufacturing shops in the country) I have been lucky enough to meet some of the top names in the business through the association with the NCA. This helps when you are stuck on something that you can't quite figure out. Various other support groups for costuming are out there for pros in the business. I met my wife while I was performing "the Grand Duke" at academy of music in Philadelphia. She was the make-up artist with over 18 years of experience. I became interested in her and subsequently grew an interest in make-up. I find it to be the best way to totally transform someone. She now complains that I know too much and that have passed her in technical ability (probably due to the fact that I am a fanatic when I like something). Our joke is that she makes you look good (she prefers fashion & stage make-up) and I make you look bad (I prefer gore, prosthetics, and other "shocking' make-up jobs). we routinely work for photographers,theatre, parades, TV, and film. anyway...somehow you cought me on a slow moment and I can't believe I just wrote all of this... Hope we can all help each other out someday... Rich PS...FYI Abbreviated Mascot Client List Atlantic County Utility Authority SuperCan Binney & Smith Crayola Crayons Boston University Bulldog & Skating Boston Terrier City of Philadelphia Fire Dept. Barney Battery City of Philadelphia Kool Kat Clemens Markets "Clemie" Kangeroo Cloister Spring Water "Glub" Water Jug Comcast U.S. Indoor Tennis "Top Spin" Tennis Ball Coopers Ferry "Della - Whale" Courier Post Spot News Dog Delaware County Drug Rehab 20 Characters for "Babes World" Detroit Pistons "Piston" Drexel University Dragon Habbersett Sausage Pig Hatfield Meats "Smiley" Pig Herr's Chips "Chip" monk Independence Brewing Company "colonial" pint glass & bottle Ikea Furniture 7 Mooses J.P. Mascaro Trash hauling 2 "Dumpo" Elephants Kiddie City KC Kangeroo Lafayette College Tiger LaSalle University Explorer Melitta Coffee "Brewster" Coffee Filter & "Espresso cup & Coffee bag Maalox 5 "Flavored" Maalox tablets Montco Foods Montco Man New Jersey Devils Devil NJ State Aquarium 2 Seahorses Ocean One Mall 7 Assorted Mascots Ontario Senators Lion Oaktree Healthplan Acorn Panasonic Robot Penns Landing RiverRink Rinky Philadelphia Bulldogs RHI "Bruzer" Philadelphia Eagles Ernie Eagle, Huddles, & Birdbrain Philadelphia Housing Authority Rat Philadelphia Inquirer Phil & Del Philadelphia Kixx Socceroo Philadelphia Recreation Dept. Panda Philadelphia Visitors & Convention Bureau "Jambalaya James" Philadelphia Zoo "Bear"nice & "Bear"nard Ragu 6 "Chicken Tonight" Chickens Running Press Book Publishers 2 "Book Buddies" St. Jose Sharks Sharky St. Joseph's University Hawk Southland Corporation "Slurpee" Swarthmore College Dragon Temple University Owl University of North Texas Eagle University of Pennsylvania Quaker US Air National Guard "Sandy" Warthog US Healthcare 5 Apples Villanova University Wildcat We have made mascots for thousands of organizations, from High Schools, Colleges, and Professional sports teams as well as Major National Corporations and Amusement Parks. Pierre's continues to design and produce the country's finest mascots as we enter our 53rd year in business. In 1943 Pierre Uniforms Inc., a uniform manufacturer servicing the medical and restaurant professions, emerged into professional costuming trading as "Costumes by Pierre". In 1961 Pierre purchased the tremendous inventory of "Miller Costumier" of Philadelphia which had been active since 1876. With this acquisition, Pierre became one of the world's foremost Costumers. During the last five decades Pierre has maintained a complete full service professional costume house, designing and manufacturing on the premises. Pierre services professional and semi-professional Broadway productions, school theatrical groups, motion picture industry, advertising agencies, party planners, production companies, national sports teams, major corporations and costume shops throughout the world. In 1993 Pierre's moved from Walnut street in Philadelphia to a new larger modern location 5 minutes away just across the Ben Franklin Bridge in Pennsauken NJ. In September 1994 The company was acquired by the Williamson family who already owned and managed Irvin Stern's Carousel Costumes in Media PA (founded 1900). The new company is know as Pierre's Costumes. The Williamsons have been around theater and costumes all of their life. They have gained experience in theater in many European countries. With the two locations there are over 40,000 different costumes to chose from, making it by far the largest costume shop in the Delaware Valley, and one of the largest in the country. The Williamsons are proud to be able to ensure the continuation of two of the country's oldest Costumers and so allow the public and theatrical organizations the opportunity of renting from a wide range of top quality in-house manufactured costume or original historic garments. Pierre's Costumes also carries a full line of Halloween outfits, professional make-up, wigs and accessories. Pierre's also makes custom designed outfits and costumes for Television Personalities, Movies, Musicians, Performers, and many others. The Company is continuing with Pierre's tradition of providing the highest quality Costumes, while expanding the services offered, and building new inventory. Pierre's hires some of the brightest and best costumers in the country. This allows to create items that others can only dream of. Pierre's Costumes has been working with the entertainment industry since 1943. We are able to provide many services and are a source for the unusual. Film companies, theaters, and ad agencies use us for their needs. We rent and sell everything you'll ever need. We can: * Plan themed parties ranging from fantasy to movie quality costumes. * Provide novelty giveaways for your patrons along any theme. * Make or rent complex or simple uniforms or costumes for your waitstaff. * Movie quality make-up ranging from Sci-Fi, & Blacklight, to Horror, & SFX. * Equipment ranging from fog machines & black lights to spots & soundboards. * Costume accessories to dress up your personnel or your space. * Professional consulting services from advertising work to Mascot design. * Professional Air-Brush Make-up artist available for your event. (Body murals, horror, your logo stenciled on customers, exotic dayglow/blacklight hair effects, animals, fantasy, and anything else possible). * We coordinate all your customer/staff needs and deliver when needed. The staff at Pierre's is chosen for their expertise in costuming and their ability to work with customers. Most of them have degrees in the arts, ranging from Fashion design to Art and Theater. Most employees have some interest and involvement in the arts outside the store. We employ professional tailors to ensure that the outfits our customers wear fit them perfectly. We have industrial cleaning and pressing equipment to ensure that the costumes are clean and look great. We are also very well versed in brainstorming for ideas to make your event even better. You will find that the staff at Pierre's can help you in ways you wouldn't think a costume store could! We would love to help you with your next event. Rich Williamson Pierre's Costumes 7882 Browning Road Pennsauken, NJ 08109 (formerly Miller Costume -1876 & Pierre of Philadelphia -1943) 609-486-1188 Phone 609-486-4402 Fax NOTE: 9-27-96 new address: costumes@mindspring.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Dec 1996 11:52:00 -0500 From: "NELSON, Carolyn A." Subject: Fancy Dress When I first saw the film White Mischief a few years back I heard the term "Fancy Dress" for the first time. In the film, set in the 1930s or 40s, (or was it WWI?), a ball was to be held in "Fancy Dress". From what I could tell, the men came dressed as women and the women as men. My question is this: does the term Fancy Dress, have the particular connotation of cross-dressing, or is it also a general term for a costumed or masquerade affair? Thanks, Carolyn ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Dec 1996 13:10:07 -0400 From: Margaret Rae Carignan Subject: Re: German Costume Book (fwd) I am loving the stuff we are discussing right now! Gym uniforms! (Anyone who went to grade school in Toronto in the 1960's is with me in saying YIKES! Were those things self-esteem monsters, or what?), frilly Victorian things, and the German Ren stuff especially facinates me. I have only looked at German costume to say "My, isn't that facinating, now where's the Italian stuff...", but I have always been intrigued by the clothes of the 15th and 16th centuries in Germany. Maybe I can start a discussion among the experts by asking, did the Venetians steal that short-waisted, scooped bodiced, many-parted sleeved style from the Germans, ro vice versa. I don't know if I'm making myself very clear, but there are distinct similarities between a number of Cranache (the Younger) dresses and some in a painting that shows a gaggle of round, blond women with similar outfits, watching some guy getting fished out of a river. Does this ring any bells? Please forgive my rambling, I just finished exams, and papers, and samples and goo, and I'm very happy. On another note, what Julie mentioned about needlework being mislabeled, who edits these things? There is a book by Madeline Ginsberg on historic textiles that has a picture on the back cover of a piece of Italian lacis (lace net darning) in red silk on white linen netted mesh, with white silk cross-stitch details, that is labeled as "white cross-stitch on red linen"! 'Scuse me? Oh, and to avoid confusion, my friends call me Meg, Scadians call me Francesca, and nobody calls me Margaret Rae unless they want money, or are REALLY mad at me! Meg/Francesca ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Dec 1996 12:59:44 -0500 From: Mary Subject: Re: Fancy Dress At 11:52 11/12/96 -0500, Carolyn wrote: >When I first saw the film White Mischief a few years back I heard the >term "Fancy Dress" for the first time... >...My question is this: does the term Fancy Dress, have the particular >connotation of cross-dressing, or is it also a general term for a >costumed or masquerade affair? In my experience "Fancy Dress" was and is a costume party with or with out a theme. The party in White Mischief probably had a Lads as Lasses and Lasses as Lads theme. The one name I have come across for a cross dressing party was a "Topsy-Turvy Night" at 1950's and 60's holiday camps. Good old English family fun. Mary --- ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Dec 1996 10:17:59 -0800 From: "R.L. Shep" Subject: Re: Fancy Dress NELSON, Carolyn A. wrote: > > When I first saw the film White Mischief a few years back I heard the > term "Fancy Dress" for the first time. In the film, set in the 1930s or > 40s, (or was it WWI?), a ball was to be held in "Fancy Dress". From > what I could tell, the men came dressed as women and the women as men. > My question is this: does the term Fancy Dress, have the particular > connotation of cross-dressing, or is it also a general term for a > costumed or masquerade affair? > > Thanks, > > Carolyn It is a general term for a costumed or masquerade affair.... There have been a number of books written on it (including a small Shire publications with that title). I don't have any of them at hand. I seem to recall that many of them were heavy on the "oriental influence", esecially Turkish. Also Dennison's used to put out a catalog for patterns to make Fancy Dress costumes out of crepe-paper (in that case, mostly for children). ~!~ R.L. Shep ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Dec 1996 10:20:57 -0800 From: "R.L. Shep" Subject: Re: F.I.T. Pattern Exhibition Kathleen Songal wrote: > > It was mentioned a while back that the Fashion Institute of Technology in > New York will be having an exhibition on the history of dress pattern making > this spring. I have been unable to find out exact dates. This exhibition > is not listed on their net page and they do not have an e-mail address that > I could find. > > Does anyone know the dates of this show? > > Does anyone have any further details of what will be exhibited? > > Thanking you in advance, Kathy Songal The information I have shows the following: "Dreams on Paper: Home Sewing in America." Feb 25 to April 23. at Fashion Institute of Technology. ~!~ R.L. Shep ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Dec 1996 10:24:25 -0800 From: Alice Morgan Subject: pendelton trip report Just recently had a chance to visit the Pendelton Woolen Mills Factory. Went on a Saturday, so only the outlet store was open ( I want to get back for the factory tour). Most of the store was taken up with 1990's casual wear, but they did have a number of rolls of wool at quite reasonable prices. Most of the wool was priced from 3 to 10 US Dollars for 60 inch wide fabric. A much better deal than what you usually see as going prices for wool. The term "kid in a candy store" came to mind. No guarantees of what you will see in terms of type of wool, each time is different. If you are in the area (just east of Portland Oregon) and you like wool or want to stock up on reasonable priced wool yardage, its worth going to. (though I'm staying away at least until after the first of the year). Back online now that I've finished moving and setting up computers to bring spotted dog systems back online. Can anyone summarize the formalwear thread and email it to me? I seemed to have only caught the tail end as I re-subscribed. Well, back to lurker mode. Alice -- Alice Morgan Spotted Dog Systems malice@sptddog.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Dec 1996 16:53:35 -0500 From: Witt Meggan Subject: grad. schools I have a student who is interested in further education in the specific area of costume construction. She is NOT interested in designing. She is working towards a career as first hand, shop supervisor, or costume technician. Is there anyone out there who knows of schools with programs which specialize in the technical costume skills like cutting, tailoring, pattern making, draping, crafts, etc? If so, please send responses directly to me at: witt_meggan@muohio.edu ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Dec 1996 20:29:57 EST From: LuAnn Mason Subject: Re: pendelton trip report On Wed, 11 Dec 1996 10:24:25 -0800 Alice Morgan writes: >Just recently had a chance to visit the Pendelton Woolen Mills >Factory. Went on a Saturday, so only the outlet store was >open ( I want to get back for the factory tour). >Most of the store was taken up with 1990's casual wear, >but they did have a number of rolls of wool at quite reasonable >prices. Most of the wool was priced from 3 to 10 US Dollars >for 60 inch wide fabric. A much better deal than what you >usually see as going prices for wool. The term "kid in a candy >store" came to mind. snip Also, to let anyone know who is interested, there are actually 2 outlet stores, one in Washougal, WA (East of Portland) and one in Milwaukie, OR (SW of Portland, though still in the metro area). Save your pennies, because they only hold two big sales a year, and the next one hits in January. If you contact the manager of the Milwaukie outlet, she can give you information on custom wools. I know that their minimum order for custom stuff is pretty large, but there may be some folks out there who are interested. I can just tell you that their heavy sky blue kersey makes the most beautiful CW trousers you've ever seen... but they only do it on custom order. (I think it's a 100 yard minimum at $20 a yard, so it's kinda steep) Also, 100% wool yarn is available from the Milwaukie store, but not from the Washougal store. This is sold by the ounce, and the non-sale price is $10 a pound. (Some of us wait until January, then clean 'em out!) My .02 (which is all I'm sparing because I'm going to the Pendleton outlets in January!) LuAnn ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Dec 1996 02:54:30 UT From: Rebecca Plummer Subject: corset covers First of all, thanks a bunch to everyone who responded about my corset lacing in the front question. I was referring to mid Victorian period, and the answers were much as I thought. Now I have another question. I'm a little confused about another corset item. Were corset covers a "definitely worn" item durning the late Victorian era (1880-1890's)? I've been getting confliction advice about this and I really like to know. Thanks in advance for all the help. Rebecca ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Dec 1996 13:57:17 +1000 From: Sarah Randles Subject: Fustian composition The OED defines fustian: "Formerly, a kind of coarse cloth made of cotton and flax. Now, a thick twilled cloth with a short pile or nap, usually dyed of an olive, leaden or other dark colour." Can anyone point me to a better definition, and a reference for when the fibre composition changed? Thanks, Sarah ****************************************************************************** Sarah Randles email: s-randles@adfa.oz.au English Department phone: 06 268 8898 University College ADFA fax: 06 268 8899 Canberra ACT 2601 AUSTRALIA ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Dec 1996 23:04:20 -0500 From: "Penny E. Ladnier" Subject: What show is this? I'm back!!! And lived through exams... A question for early birds. What is the name of this television program? I was up at 7:00am EST and turned on A&E. This British program was on with beautiful empire costumes playing. I thought at first it was the much discussed A&E version of "Sense & Sensibility". The TV Guide said it was a show called "Classroom". At the end of the program, it said thank you for watching "Classroom". I am not normally up at this time. Is this classroom or S&S or something else? It is a must see program and I hope it comes on at another time. Does it come on weekly? ***Start checking in on my web page frequently. Exams ended today (finally) and I am going to start putting the costume designs and period patterns on my page starting tomorrow (Thursday). This is going to occur over a two week period. The german costume book will be added last. This is because I am deciding what portions to put on the web. One more semester, Penny Penny E. Ladnier, Virginia Commonwealth University s0peladn@erols.com http://www.geocities.com/BourbonStreet/2157 member: Costume Society of America American Fashion Council Association for Information Systems Professionals ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Dec 1996 23:04:15 -0500 From: "Penny E. Ladnier" Subject: Re: grad. schools At 04:53 PM 12/11/96 -0500, you wrote: > >Is there anyone out there who knows of schools with programs which specialize >in the technical costume skills like cutting, tailoring, pattern making, >draping, crafts, etc? I am answering this to the list because people email me about this alot. I am a Fashion Merchandising student at Virginia Commonwealth University. I really don't like merchandising or current fashion (until it's history). But I will graduate with this degree in the spring. I too, was looking for a masters program that would give me more on costume history and sewing, and not so much on design. The programs offered are very limited. FIT seems to have the best programs. I like your friend have sewn all my life and share the same interest. My department would not let me go into the fashion design courses without being a fashion design major. I certainly was not going to start over with six years of college behind me. I found out that the theatre department costume design students can go through the fashion design classes. I know it doesn't make since. My department allows me to more or less make up my course of study and take the theatre costume design courses. Instead of art history courses, I took costume history courses or costume design. To be in the costume design classes you need to know how to cut, drape and make patterns. So the chair of the fashion dept. is teaching me how to do this on the side. Last Monday, I was taught the basics of draping. It was a blast! I also do the same thing with computer courses, because my interest is also in computers and writing. Instead of literature classes, I am taking technical writing. I have a very diverse educational background and have majored in drafting, fashion merchandising and marketing, art, home ec. education and again, fashion merchandising. It seems doing it this way, I am pulling all of my studies together. Next Fall, I will start for my masters in Costume Design in the theatre dept. I talked to the chair of the fashion design dept. and then they will allow me to take the patternmaking, etc. classes. The costume design professor knows were my interest lie and is willing to accommodate to it. Many universities are willing to work you in this way. All you have to do is ask. One more semester, Penny Penny E. Ladnier, Virginia Commonwealth University s0peladn@erols.com http://www.geocities.com/BourbonStreet/2157 member: Costume Society of America American Fashion Council Association for Information Systems Professionals ------------------------------ End of H-COSTUME Digest - 10 Dec 1996 to 11 Dec 1996 **************************************************** From ???@??? Fri Dec 13 11:21:45 1996 Received: from brownvm.brown.edu by mail.math.TU-Berlin.DE with SMTP id AA25695 (5.67b8/IDA-1.5 for ); Fri, 13 Dec 1996 06:04:08 +0100 Message-Id: <199612130504.AA25695@mail.math.TU-Berlin.DE> Received: from BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU by BROWNVM.brown.edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with BSMTP id 0482; Fri, 13 Dec 96 00:03:09 EST Received: from BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU (NJE origin LISTSERV@BROWNVM) by BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 1970; Fri, 13 Dec 1996 00:03:08 -0500 Date: Fri, 13 Dec 1996 00:03:05 -0500 Reply-To: Historic Costume List Sender: Historic Costume List From: Automatic digest processor Subject: H-COSTUME Digest - 11 Dec 1996 to 12 Dec 1996 To: Recipients of H-COSTUME digests There are 13 messages totalling 334 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. Pendelton Woolen Mills, misc. 2. H-COSTUME Digest - 10 Dec 1996 to 11 Dec 1996 3. Costume Software 4. Need to get rid of some stuff 5. Life stories 6. request for info on "plain" patterns 7. 18th c red heels (2) 8. Victorian/Edwardian dress/hair 9. Fine Pleats and Fortuny 10. you're not dressed without a smile 11. I have a dress, now how about a bonnet? 12. Classroom ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 12 Dec 1996 08:15:32 -0600 From: "EGSMITH@OPPD.GOV(Earley G. Smith)" Subject: Pendelton Woolen Mills, misc. Just in case anyone is interested, there is also a Pendelton Woolen Mills factory in Nebraska City, Nebraska, with outlets in Nebraska City, Omaha, NE and Council Bluffs, IA. Probably the same type of setup. Please don't put your life story on this list. Most of us don't have any interest in your entire life, or the complete operation of your business. If there is something pertinent to historical costume, great. If you have a business in this field, that's fine too. But not very people have the time to read thousands of words about your business or your life! Cheers, EG ******************************************************************************* ******* If Pro is the opposite of Con, and Progress is going forward, then Congress . . . ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Dec 1996 10:05:07 -0500 From: "Karen R. Walter" Subject: Re: H-COSTUME Digest - 10 Dec 1996 to 11 Dec 1996 Hi All, Sarah asked about fustian, and I just happen to have Florence Montgomery's massive "Textiles in America 1650 - 1870 " (New York: Norton, 1984 ISBN 0-393-01703-6) here at work today. She has quite a lot of information, so I'll summarize: Late medieval fustian was wool. Cotton and linen fustian begins to be made (in England) about 1600. By the early 19th c., fustians are cotton. (This makes sense - more cotton is cheaply available to English mills by the early 19th c.) Fustian seems to be a catchall term for fabrics suitable for heavy wear, both napped and plain. Things like jean, twills, ribs, corduroy, velveret, velveteen, and pillow (a strong plain lining fabric, also used for pillow ticks). I recommend you check out Montgomery if you can get it; a great resource. Sincerely, Karen Walter >Date: Thu, 12 Dec 1996 13:57:17 +1000 >From: Sarah Randles >Subject: Fustian composition > >The OED defines fustian: > >"Formerly, a kind of coarse cloth made of cotton and flax. Now, a thick >twilled cloth with a short pile or nap, usually dyed of an olive, leaden or >other dark colour." > >Can anyone point me to a better definition, and a reference for when the >fibre composition changed? > >Thanks, > >Sarah > Karen Walter Physics and Astronomy University of Pennsylvania walter@dept.physics.upenn.edu ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Dec 1996 13:55:29 -0500 From: Psyche9@AOL.COM Subject: Costume Software Hello everyone! I am posting this for my housemate, who is resident costume designer at our local university. She has been asked to put in her request for computer software for the costume shop's new computer (!!!) and would like to have a better idea of what's available. Anything dealing with pattern drafting, costume history, wardrobe organization, or any other organizational tools for that matter, would be most helpful. Thank you in advance for your input! Sincerely, Jessica Scoblick ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Dec 1996 14:53:06 -0500 From: Northshield Folk Subject: Need to get rid of some stuff Hi, I have a surplus of stuff in my storage unit I need to get rid of to clear space for more materials etc. approx 20 30gal storage tubs with hinged lid that snaps shut in front. Will sell them indivdually or in bunches. $8.00 each (I paid $20.00) 20 yards of light blue fake fur short pile pastel color. Will sell in 5 yard sections if desired. $4.00 yd (I paid $8.00) approx 15 sheets 9x12in Protoplast mask plastic. This is great stuff if you have not used it yet. Can be molded with a hairdryer on high, holds up well when done. A sheet that size goes for $30.00, I will get rid of extras for $10.00 each (I am keeping a few for myself though) I have a few mascot bodies in the light blue fur, we overproduced on an order would be willing to get rid of them for $25.00 each. Contact me if your interested to work something out Nancy Laughlin-Foust Gothica Studios email: shadewescompany@on-ramp.com shadewescompany@on-ramp.com Glory,Magesty,Unity Warriors of the Northshield and the Known World ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Dec 1996 16:14:17 -0500 From: aleed Subject: Life stories On Thu, 12 Dec 1996, EGSMITH@OPPD.GOV(Earley G. Smith) wrote: > > Please don't put your life story on this list. Most of us don't have any > interest in your entire life, or the complete operation of your business. If > there is something pertinent to historical costume, great. If you have a > business in this field, that's fine too. But not very people have the time to > read thousands of words about your business or your life! Personally, I find the motivation behind people's interest in the costume history field quite interesting; it makes the members of this list seem more real. If you have no desire to read these stories, it can't take more than a microsecond to delete messages with the subject title "How I got into costuming." Cheers, Drea ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Dec 1996 19:29:17 -0500 From: Stephanie Stein Subject: request for info on "plain" patterns I am a quilter who has just begun to sew clothing. I am interested in historical clothing, but not the fancy, elaborate stuff worn by the rich. I love the look of simple lines and plain fabrics like linen and loosely woven cottons and wools. I was particularly taken with the plain linen dresses worn by Emma Thompson's character and her family in Sense and Sensibility. Any clues to where I might find books about these "primitive" styles? Do patterns exist for clothing like this? Stephanie Stein- E mail :Bell61@AOL.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Dec 1996 17:37:32 -0800 From: Tricia Adams Subject: 18th c red heels Hello, everyone, This list is always inspiring for its collective knowledge, and, if I may, I'd like to delurk and ask a question that has come up on another list: Why did men's shoes have red heels in the 18th c? These shoes have heels that are rather high and were worn by (at least) both French and English nobility. TIA, Tricia triciaa@cats.ucsc.edu ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Dec 1996 20:06:28 -0800 From: don and carolyn richardson Subject: Re: Victorian/Edwardian dress/hair > > 3. Is there any reference (book, as opposed to periodical or > > theses, as I don't think I could get access to them) on how hair was > > worn in that era? More importantly, are there any instructions on > > how you can do it yourself? I'm horrible at styling my hair by just > > looking at a picture (unless it is a step-by-step diagram). I just picked up a book on this very topic on Sunday. It's called "The Techniques of Ladies Hairdressing of the 19th Century" by Jules and Kaethe Kliot and is published by Lacis in Berkeley. This is a compiliation of articles from various ladies magazines of the period. Lacis' address is 3163 Adeline street, Berkeley, CA 94703 (I don't have the phone number but I know they do mail order). I got it from Hedgehog Handworks, 8406 Flight Avenue, Los Angeles, CA 90045, (310)670-6040. Hedgehog does mail order and will accept Visa/MC over the phone as well. It was $16.00 plus tax. Hope this helps. Tetchubah ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Dec 1996 20:10:15 -0800 From: don and carolyn richardson Subject: Re: Fine Pleats and Fortuny Mary wrote: > Does anyone on the list have any suggestions for making the fine pleats that > typified Fortuny's dresses? > More importantly any ideas on making the pleats permanent in silk or a man > made fabric? > > Mary > I too remember the article in Victoria some time ago. But I also recall that one of the things they said is that Fortuny's method of making the pleats in his dress are a complete mystery, even with the machine he used. I got the distinct impression that these pleats were *permanent*. When I was in San Franciso a couple of weeks ago I went to the Asian Art museum to see the China exhibit, and off in a side hall (on the way to the cafeteria) is an exhibit on the Classical influence on dress, including Empire style. They had a Fortuny gown in the display, and also a copy of the Fortuny by another designer (I don't recall which one but I think it may have been Dior). I'd go with everyone else's suggestions about twisting and drying the silk to get your pleats. Tetchubah ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Dec 1996 23:13:51 -0500 From: Jafath@AOL.COM Subject: Re: you're not dressed without a smile I found this interesting, maybe you will, too: >From "Happy Families?" by Emiko Ochiai in the December 1996 issue of _Look_Japan_ magazine. "Leafing through women's magazines, one can see that right after the war a beautiful smile featured a face that turned slightly upwards and bespoke a certain lack of confidence, and bashfulness. By the 1950s the face still turned up, but was now brimming with good cheer. Permanents were the hairstyle of choice, and they evoked an air of freedom from restraint. When economic growth began to surge, however, faces turned slightly downwards, and by 1955 they were looking straight on. But it was only the lips that were smiling, not the eyes. The smile was forced and faked, and so it would be for the next two decades, until about 1975. This faked smile was considered to be the face of a wife with grace and dignity. It is this twenty year period that constitutes the "postwar" for the Japanese family." Now, has anyone done this sort of research on other eras and places? Jo Anne ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Dec 1996 20:12:32 -0800 From: don and carolyn richardson Subject: Re: I have a dress, now how about a bonnet? SyRilla@AOL.COM wrote: > It is a basic 1840's dress, and I am almost finished with > it. But now I need a bonnet. I thought I remembered how to make one, but... > Ohhhh, the mock up looks bad =p.. Does anyone have any other ideas or quick > suggestions. I only have 5 more days. Kim, you might try getting in touch with Mary LaVenture at Enhancements in Anaheim, CA. She sells a wonderful buckram fram for 1840's bonnets and will cover it for an additional cost. I know she lurks on the list so hopefully she'll see this and respond to you. I can't find my address for her. Tetchubah ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Dec 1996 23:19:23 -0500 From: J&B Subject: Re: 18th c red heels Tricia - The "red" heels were particularly fashionable at the court of Louis XIV, and it is to Louis himself that the fashion is credited. (As well as the fashion of wearing high heels at all, Louis being vain about his height, or lack of.) -Bob Skiba ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Dec 1996 23:23:19 -0500 From: "Penny E. Ladnier" Subject: Classroom Thank you to the people who answereed the question "what show is this". It is on weekdays (6:00am EST) and is called "Classroom". On Wed. A&E devotes Classroom to the arts. What I had seen was the 6th episode of Pride & Prejudice. Too bad, it is not on again this month. I know alot of the list have seen this, but it was new to me. I just knew the costumes were beautiful. Thanks again, Penny E. Ladnier, Virginia Commonwealth University s0peladn@erols.com http://www.geocities.com/BourbonStreet/2157 member: Costume Society of America American Fashion Council Association for Information Systems Professionals ------------------------------ End of H-COSTUME Digest - 11 Dec 1996 to 12 Dec 1996 **************************************************** From ???@??? Mon Dec 16 10:39:10 1996 Received: from brownvm.brown.edu by mail.math.TU-Berlin.DE with SMTP id AA03757 (5.67b8/IDA-1.5 for ); Sat, 14 Dec 1996 06:02:32 +0100 Message-Id: <199612140502.AA03757@mail.math.TU-Berlin.DE> Received: from BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU by BROWNVM.brown.edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with BSMTP id 3691; Sat, 14 Dec 96 00:01:25 EST Received: from BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU (NJE origin LISTSERV@BROWNVM) by BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 6873; Sat, 14 Dec 1996 00:01:25 -0500 Date: Sat, 14 Dec 1996 00:01:21 -0500 Reply-To: Historic Costume List Sender: Historic Costume List From: Automatic digest processor Subject: H-COSTUME Digest - 12 Dec 1996 to 13 Dec 1996 To: Recipients of H-COSTUME digests There are 14 messages totalling 444 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. Life stories (2) 2. Eleanora's Stockings 3. H-COSTUME Digest - 11 Dec 1996 to 12 Dec 1996 (2) 4. Fustian (3) 5. Life Story. 6. Cufflinks, Millie 7. Pendelton Woolen Mills, misc. 8. Standing collars, Whalebone , La Vie des Enfants 9. [Fwd: Help the Kids.... (and if you get to sorry)] (2) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 12 Oct 1996 22:06:52 -0700 From: Margo Anderson Subject: Re: Life stories At 04:14 PM 12/12/96 -0500, you wrote: >On Thu, 12 Dec 1996, EGSMITH@OPPD.GOV(Earley G. Smith) wrote: >> >> Please don't put your life story on this list. SNIP >Personally, I find the motivation behind people's interest in the costume >history field quite interesting; it makes the members of this list seem >more real. If you have no desire to read these stories, it can't take >more than a microsecond to delete messages with the subject title "How I >got into costuming." I agree! I thought this recent thread was one of the most interesting ones we've had. Margo Anderson "One Tough Costumer" ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 13 Dec 1996 10:33:00 GMT From: "Chandler, Sally A." Subject: Eleanora's Stockings Those of you who expressed an interest in these stockings earlier in the year may be interested to know that Janet Arnold will be giving a talk on them in March next year. This is part of a day conference on early knitting held by the Medieval Dress and Textile Society and the Early Knitting Group at the Courtauld Institute in London. Sally Ann Chandler The Historical Clothing Company s.a.chandler@shu.ac.uk ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 13 Dec 1996 11:13:38 +0000 From: TEDDY Subject: Re: H-COSTUME Digest - 11 Dec 1996 to 12 Dec 1996 > > Please don't put your life story on this list. Most of us don't have any > > interest in your entire life, or the complete operation of your business. If > > Personally, I find the motivation behind people's interest in the costume > history field quite interesting; it makes the members of this list seem > more real. If you have no desire to read these stories, it can't take > more than a microsecond to delete messages with the subject title "How I > got into costuming." I agree with this. You don't have to read the threads that don't interest you. I get them in digest format and just skip the ones I'm not interested in. Teddy teddy1@mdx.ac.uk ====================== Bibliographical Services Dept. * If a costume's worth * Middlesex University * making, it's worth * Bounds Green Road * making well enough * London, N11 2NQ * for every-day wear. * England ====================== Tel No.(0181) 362 6405 ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 13 Dec 1996 11:17:01 +0000 From: TEDDY Subject: Re: H-COSTUME Digest - 11 Dec 1996 to 12 Dec 1996 I received this digest last night/today but it's the fist since 7th Dec. This has happened before, the missing ones turn up days (sometimes a week or more) later. Has anyone else experienced this?Teddy teddy1@mdx.ac.uk ====================== Bibliographical Services Dept. * If a costume's worth * Middlesex University * making, it's worth * Bounds Green Road * making well enough * London, N11 2NQ * for every-day wear. * England ====================== Tel No.(0181) 362 6405 ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 13 Dec 1996 09:27:16 -0500 From: JE Berry Subject: Re: Fustian Here is another definition of fustian from George S. Cole's 1892 Dictionary of Dry Goods. Fustian (fus'-tyan). [From Fustat, a suburb of Cario, Egypt, whence the stuff first came.] In present use a stout, twilled cotton fabric, especially that which has a short nap, variously called corduroy, moleskin, beaverteen, thichset, etc., according to the way it is finished. Among the various trades which anciently distinguished Barcelona, Spain, one of the most famous and useful was that of cotton manufacture. These artisans prepared and spun cotton for the numerous stuffs used in those times, principally for the manufacture of cotton sail cloth, and strong fustians for sailor's breeches - for Barcelona was for more than 500 years a station of the Spanish Armadas. These early fustians were then, as now, of cotton, or of cotton weft and linen warp. In the 13th and 14th centuries priests' robes and women's dresses were made of it, there being both cheap and costly varieties. It appears to have been worn where both strength and durability were required. Through the invention and adoption of other fabrics its use has gradually been confined to laborers and servants. [See Corduroy, Moleskin, Beverteen, Thickset.] Hope this is helpful Jim Berry Historic Crossroads Village JEBerry@aol.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 13 Dec 1996 14:54:00 GMT From: "Chandler, Sally A." Subject: Re: Fustian If this was worn in the 13th 14th century in Spain, doesn't this bring us back to the old humbug of cotton not being used for clothing before the late 16th century at least? I have evidence of cotton cloth being imported into England in the late 15th century, but I can't recall where it came from (the cotton or the reference!) and this reference doesn't give it's intended use. If it were available for sailors and in Spain it's not too much of a stretch of the imagination to suppose some of it might have made its way to England. If cotton was used as early as 13th century for a weft thread on a fabric as robust as fustian surely it could have been used for the warp as well? Sally Ann Chandler The Historical Clothing Company s.a.chandler@shu.ac.uk ---------- From: JE Berry To: Multiple recipients of list H-COSTUME Subject: Re: Fustian Date: 13 December 1996 09:27 Here is another definition of fustian from George S. Cole's 1892 Dictionary of Dry Goods. Fustian (fus'-tyan). [From Fustat, a suburb of Cario, Egypt, whence the stuff first came.] In present use a stout, twilled cotton fabric, especially that which has a short nap, variously called corduroy, moleskin, beaverteen, thichset, etc., according to the way it is finished. Among the various trades which anciently distinguished Barcelona, Spain, one of the most famous and useful was that of cotton manufacture. These artisans prepared and spun cotton for the numerous stuffs used in those times, principally for the manufacture of cotton sail cloth, and strong fustians for sailor's breeches - for Barcelona was for more than 500 years a station of the Spanish Armadas. These early fustians were then, as now, of cotton, or of cotton weft and linen warp. In the 13th and 14th centuries priests' robes and women's dresses were made of it, there being both cheap and costly varieties. It appears to have been worn where both strength and durability were required. Through the invention and adoption of other fabrics its use has gradually been confined to laborers and servants. [See Corduroy, Moleskin, Beverteen, Thickset.] Hope this is helpful Jim Berry Historic Crossroads Village JEBerry@aol.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 13 Dec 1996 12:07:46 -0400 From: Joy Pye-MacSwain Subject: Re: Life stories >On Thu, 12 Dec 1996, EGSMITH@OPPD.GOV(Earley G. Smith) wrote: >> >> Please don't put your life story on this list. Most of us don't have any >> interest in your entire life, or the complete operation of your business. If >Personally, I find the motivation behind people's interest in the costume >history field quite interesting; it makes the members of this list seem Greetings.... I have to agree with you Drea. As a long time lurker on this news group, I have been fascinated with the stories of how people got into costuming, and the similarities in the stories! I had no idea that the SCA had had such an influence, not to mention costuming for Barbie - both influences in my own past! :) :) :) If others don't want to read these particular posts...well that is what the delete function is for, and it does work very well. As for myself i look forward to reading more about the members of this list. Have a good day. Joy Pye-MacSwain **************************************************************************** Joyeuse Garb, Lady Elyene of Lochcarron, SCA Historic Costuming Joy Pye-MacSwain 30 Fury Drive Dartmouth, NS B3A 4Y2 E-mail jkpyemac@peinet.pe.ca Voice (902) 469-6390 **************************************************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 13 Dec 1996 11:53:27 -0500 From: J&B Subject: Re: Fustian Sally- Fustian is certainly mentioned in Chaucer, in the prologue to the Canterbury Tales. (14th c.) Fustian originally described a coarse material made from cotton and flax, and I think only took on the current meaning of a twilled cotton cloth in the 19th c. The attribution of the origin of the word to "Fostat," the suburb outside of Cairo is late 19th c conjecture. - Bob Skiba ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 13 Dec 1996 11:28:06 -0600 From: "EGSMITH@OPPD.GOV(Earley G. Smith)" Subject: Life Story. I received a couple of off-list responses and the below on-list response to my comment about people putting their life story on the list. >> Please don't put your life story on this list. Most of us don't have any >> interest in your entire life, or the complete operation of your business. If >> there is something pertinent to historical costume, great. If you have a >> business in this field, that's fine too. But not very people have the time to >> read thousands of words about your business or your life! >Personally, I find the motivation behind people's interest in the costume >history field quite interesting; it makes the members of this list seem >more real. If you have no desire to read these stories, it can't take >more than a microsecond to delete messages with the subject title "How I >got into costuming." Neither I nor anyone else, I believe, has a problem with someone telling how they started in historical costuming. I too have this interest. However, being a systems analyst by profession (historical costume as a hobby), I know, with the surge of use on the internet, that electronic etiquette/manners needs to be adhered to. My intention was to please be brief about such things. Excess leads to filling peoples e-mail boxes. Cases I've personally dealt with, can fill and bog down or even *crash* servers. Then everyone on those servers loses. It takes considerably more than a microsecond to delete messages. The list contains a number of messages, to delete the list because of one message you lose the whole list. Time is required to skim through a long message. I can, and did some time ago, put how I got into historical costuming on the list in less than 75 words. Some have a longer story than mine, that's fine, but please be politely brief. If you have a business to tell us about, great, just be polite and, again, brief. My apology for such a long message, but this had to be addressed. I'll use better electronic etiquette in the future. This is a new age that requires the appropriate etiquette. EG ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 13 Dec 1996 09:50:07 -0800 From: Alison Kondo Subject: Cufflinks, Millie Some time ago I ran across the address for a cufflink collectors organization, but have misplaced it. Does anyone here know about it? I was very interested bacause they said they'd identify any photos you sent them of cufflinks you have. I have a bunch of clear & coloured glass cufflinks connected by a brass bar/link arrangement & a number that are rhinestone. Are these men's or womens (ok a man may have worn the clear glass types) & are they really cufflinks? They come in pairs, but I don't know if there are any other fastening uses, collar pins, etc. that they might be. Any advice would be appriciated. Millie the Model: Does anyone else remember this comic book? I read it as a child in the early 1960's & was fascinated by the "fashions it showed. Does anyone know between what years this comic was published? I think there were also some "fashion" paperdolls associated with it. Alison ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 13 Dec 1996 10:38:19 -0800 From: "Diana H." Subject: Re: Pendelton Woolen Mills, misc. EGSMITH@OPPD.GOV(Earley G. Smith) wrote: > Please don't put your life story on this list. Most of us don't have any > interest in your entire life, or the complete operation of your business. If > there is something pertinent to historical costume, great. If you have a > business in this field, that's fine too. But not very people have the time to > read thousands of words about your business or your life! > Mr. Smith and the H-costume list I find it somewhat self-important of you to criticize people for posting things to the list that YOU say you don't want to read. Maybe someone else does. If you do not like "life stories" then there is a delete key on your mail processor. Use it. Besides, I assumed after reading that post that the person was responding to the earlier thread about "how did you start doing costuming?" I did not find it inappropriate at all being that this is a COSTUME list and the story was about costume. And even if I did, I would simply choose to not read it. Maybe you should do the same. An avid costumer and historian, Rose :~> ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 13 Dec 1996 14:24:48 EST From: Liz Jones Subject: Standing collars, Whalebone , La Vie des Enfants On Dec 8, Mary Walters asked about standing collars and supportasse, etc. I have a pamphlet at home called "The Gollila: A Spanish Collar of the 17th Century" by Ruth Anderson and published by The Hispanic Society of America. This is not perhaps the exact information you are looking for, but it is a fascinating little work (about 15 pages?) that talks alot about the understructure, which I think may have been pasteboard. It's been a while since I read it, but I could copy it and send it to you. (Takes me a while to do it, but I eventually deliver!) On Dec. 4, Sally Ann Chandler posted about a possible purchase of fake whalebone. I would be very interested in purchased 10 meters for experimentation. How do I get you money, etc.? On Dec. 2 Sara J. Davitt posted about a book, La Vie des Enfants du Moyen Age that she had scanned. Sara, I would like to get a copy if possible. Not much to report on my own work - haven't even excavated my sewing room since two months ago! However, I did have a very satisfying afternoon at the FIT library making hundreds of (costly) xeroxes of the Storia del Costume in Italia (years 1400-1500) by Levi-Pisetzy. If anyone _EVER_ sees any of those for sale, I would definitely pay a lot of money for them! Liz Jones AKA Maestra Damiana ljones@datalogix.com (don't use "reply", forward or address fresh). ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 13 Dec 1996 12:02:17 -0800 From: "J.G." Subject: [Fwd: Help the Kids.... (and if you get to sorry)] >Return-Path: Received: from mail.PERIGEE.NET (mail.perigee.net [206.229.254.8]) by tribune.concentric.net (8.7.5/(96/12/07 1.12)) id FAA04550; Fri, 13 Dec 1996 05:00:06 -0500 (EST) [1-800-745-2747 The Concentric Network] Errors-To: Received: from [206.229.254.156] by mail.PERIGEE.NET (Netscape Mail Server v1.1) with ESMTP id AAA154; Fri, 13 Dec 1996 04:53:57 -0500 X-Sender: davoice@mail.perigee.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 13 Dec 1996 05:00:36 -0500 To: share@hmco.com X-UIDL: 850506677.008 From: Kiristie (by way of Daniel Pentecost) Subject: Help the Kids.... (and if you get to sorry) Status: U X-Mozilla-Status: 0001 >---------- >From: Bill Wolfe[SMTP:root@biltmore.com] >Sent: Thursday, December 12, 1996 5:08 PM >To: 'share@hmco.com' > > >>> Subject: Books for Kids >>> >>> Here's a gift that is easy to give >>> >>> ---------- >>> Houghton Mifflin Publishing Corporation will donate one >>> book to a children's >>> hospital for every 25 e-mails they receive. Please e-mail them >>> at: >>> share@hmco.com >>> >>> I hope you can spare the seconds . . . and let your friends >>> know. >>> So far they have only received 3,400 messages. Last year they >>> reached >>> 23,000. >>> >>> Thanks ________________________________________________________________ Do you believe in Macintosh? Please check out and join the EvangeList mailing list by sending an email to . ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 13 Dec 1996 16:36:35 -0500 From: Gretchen M Beck Subject: Re: [Fwd: Help the Kids.... (and if you get to sorry)] Folks, 1st: Please don't send these sorts of announcements to h-costume. They are well outside the charter of the list, and considered to be spam by most folk. 2nd. Most messages of this sort are hoaxes. Always investigate thoroughly before sending these on to anyone. 3rd. This one, turns out, WAS not a hoax. Note the word WAS. Houghton Mifflin Publishing Corporation is no longer receiving/counting email messages (apparently they found out why it's a bad idea to do this sort of thing) That's all. toodles, gretchen (h-costume list maintainer) ------------------------------ End of H-COSTUME Digest - 12 Dec 1996 to 13 Dec 1996 **************************************************** From ???@??? Mon Dec 16 10:39:11 1996 Received: from brownvm.brown.edu by mail.math.TU-Berlin.DE with SMTP id AA06582 (5.67b8/IDA-1.5 for ); Sun, 15 Dec 1996 06:02:46 +0100 Message-Id: <199612150502.AA06582@mail.math.TU-Berlin.DE> Received: from BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU by BROWNVM.brown.edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with BSMTP id 4410; Sun, 15 Dec 96 00:01:44 EST Received: from BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU (NJE origin LISTSERV@BROWNVM) by BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 3582; Sun, 15 Dec 1996 00:01:44 -0500 Date: Sun, 15 Dec 1996 00:01:43 -0500 Reply-To: Historic Costume List Sender: Historic Costume List From: Automatic digest processor Subject: H-COSTUME Digest - 13 Dec 1996 to 14 Dec 1996 To: Recipients of H-COSTUME digests There are 4 messages totalling 74 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. selling at meetings/conventions 2. INTERESTING WEBSITE 3. Costume Software 4. Cufflinks, Millie ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 14 Dec 1996 15:44:02 -0600 From: Tim Allison Subject: selling at meetings/conventions Could the person who indicated an interest in selling historical costumes/accessories/related items at a historical meeting or science fiction convention in the Chicago area be nice enough to contact me again? I can't find your e-mail address, and I need your snail mail address or a phone number-or I can give you the phone number of someone to contact. Thanks Carol Mitchell ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 14 Dec 1996 17:48:06 -0500 From: Sue & Ted Subject: INTERESTING WEBSITE The following website was mentioned on another list. It's a great resource for costume historians. http://wwar.com/artists1.html Enjoy, Sue Huesken ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 14 Dec 1996 19:48:37 -0500 From: Sharon and/or Mikie Subject: Costume Software >request for computer >software for the costume shop's new computer (!!!) and would like to have a >better idea of what's available. Anything dealing with pattern drafting, >costume history, wardrobe organization, or any other organizational tools for >that matter, would be most helpful. > >please either post this info to the group, or send replies to me as well, as I would be interested in the findings! Sharon ***************************** * * * DON'T MESS WITH TECHIES - * * * * THEY ALL CARRY KNIVES * * * ***************************** ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 14 Dec 1996 23:39:00 -0500 From: Jafath@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Cufflinks, Millie In a message dated 96-12-13 13:08:36 EST, kondoa@UCS.ORST.EDU (Alison Kondo) writes: << Millie the Model: Does anyone else remember this comic book? I read it as a child in the early 1960's & was fascinated by the "fashions it showed. Does anyone know between what years this comic was published? I think there were also some "fashion" paperdolls associated with it. >> Do I ever! She was contemporaneous with Katy Keene and Patsy Walker (I was a fan in the mid 50s), and all three were clotheshorses. Each comic book had one page that was a paper doll you were supposed to cut out and paste on cardboard, with a couple of outfits provided -- but any sensible reader designed her own. Jo Anne ------------------------------ End of H-COSTUME Digest - 13 Dec 1996 to 14 Dec 1996 **************************************************** From ???@??? Mon Dec 16 10:39:12 1996 Received: from brownvm.brown.edu by mail.math.TU-Berlin.DE with SMTP id AA09242 (5.67b8/IDA-1.5 for ); Mon, 16 Dec 1996 06:02:04 +0100 Message-Id: <199612160502.AA09242@mail.math.TU-Berlin.DE> Received: from BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU by BROWNVM.brown.edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with BSMTP id 6531; Mon, 16 Dec 96 00:01:00 EST Received: from BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU (NJE origin LISTSERV@BROWNVM) by BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 2731; Mon, 16 Dec 1996 00:01:00 -0500 Date: Mon, 16 Dec 1996 00:00:58 -0500 Reply-To: Historic Costume List Sender: Historic Costume List From: Automatic digest processor Subject: H-COSTUME Digest - 14 Dec 1996 to 15 Dec 1996 To: Recipients of H-COSTUME digests There are 6 messages totalling 261 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. Suggestions for Rome and Florence? (5) 2. [Fwd: Help the Kids.... (and if you get to sorry)] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 15 Dec 1996 11:42:42 -0500 From: Astrida E B Schaeffer Subject: Suggestions for Rome and Florence? Hello, all: I thought I'd ask the experts -- I'm going to be in Rome and Florence this January, and I was hoping to hit as many costume collections as possible. Any advice as to where to go? Also, if anyone knows of any armor collections, I know my husband would be thrilled. Thanks! Astrida ***************************************************************************** Astrida Schaeffer "All life on Earth is a fairy tale in which outlandish creatures pursue impossible lives" - Rutherford Platt ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 15 Dec 1996 11:45:53 -0700 From: Julie Adams Subject: Re: Suggestions for Rome and Florence? >I thought I'd ask the experts -- I'm going to be in Rome and Florence >this January, and I was hoping to hit as many costume collections as >possible. Any advice as to where to go? I don't know if you will be flexible about traveling outside of those cities, but I have a museum catalog from the Museo del Tessuto, Prato. And if you can get this book "Five Centuries of Italian Textiles" do so! It is a wonderful book, but doesn't even have ISBN. In this book there are references to sites and museums containing various paintings or items referenced in the book. I'm not sure all are open to the public, but who knows. I highly recommend getting one of those guide books for Italy. They usually contain a lot of the lesser known smaller museums and sites. Prato: Museo del Tessuto Cathedral Church of San Fransisco Florence: Museo Nazionale-Bargello Uffizi Gallery in Florence Santa Croce, Rinuccini chapel Certosa del Galluzo Santa Triniti, Sassetti chapel Medici-Ricccardi Palace and Chapel Galleria dell'Accademia Rome: Doria Palace Gallery Have fun and give us some highlights when you get back! Julie Adams ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 15 Dec 1996 12:10:29 -0800 From: Katy Bishop Subject: Re: Suggestions for Rome and Florence? On Sun, 15 Dec 1996, Astrida E B Schaeffer wrote: > Hello, all: > > I thought I'd ask the experts -- I'm going to be in Rome and Florence > this January, and I was hoping to hit as many costume collections as > possible. Any advice as to where to go? > Also, if anyone knows of any armor collections, I know my husband would > be thrilled. > > Thanks! > Astrida There was a museum on the outskirts of Florence called the Stibbert Museum, very out of the way but has a large costume collection, mostly hanging in cases which are glass fronted. I was there about 11 years ago, and don't have any more information about it on hand. Katy Bishop, Vintage Victorian vintage@netcom.com Custom reproduction gowns of the Victorian Era. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 15 Dec 1996 15:23:03 -0500 From: ERICA DANIELLE STEVENS Subject: Re: [Fwd: Help the Kids.... (and if you get to sorry)] This message is in MIME format. The first part should be readable text, while the remaining parts are likely unreadable without MIME-aware tools. Send mail to mime@docserver.cac.washington.edu for more info. --478386251-1804928587-850681363=:21799 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Content-ID: To all the recipients of this list, I just checked the HM publishing site today and they have reaced their goal. In honor of the great support of the internet community, they are donating 500 books above what they had orignially promised. They are no longer accepting messages at the above adress. Thank you for your participation! Erica Stevens --478386251-1804928587-850681363=:21799 Content-Type: MESSAGE/RFC822 Content-ID: >Return-Path: Received: from mail.PERIGEE.NET (mail.perigee.net [206.229.254.8]) by tribune.concentric.net (8.7.5/(96/12/07 1.12)) id FAA04550; Fri, 13 Dec 1996 05:00:06 -0500 (EST) [1-800-745-2747 The Concentric Network] Errors-To: Received: from [206.229.254.156] by mail.PERIGEE.NET (Netscape Mail Server v1.1) with ESMTP id AAA154; Fri, 13 Dec 1996 04:53:57 -0500 X-Sender: davoice@mail.perigee.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 13 Dec 1996 05:00:36 -0500 To: share@hmco.com X-UIDL: 850506677.008 From: Kiristie (by way of Daniel Pentecost) Subject: Help the Kids.... (and if you get to sorry) Status: U X-Mozilla-Status: 0001 >---------- >From: Bill Wolfe[SMTP:root@biltmore.com] >Sent: Thursday, December 12, 1996 5:08 PM >To: 'share@hmco.com' > > >>> Subject: Books for Kids >>> >>> Here's a gift that is easy to give >>> >>> ---------- >>> Houghton Mifflin Publishing Corporation will donate one >>> book to a children's >>> hospital for every 25 e-mails they receive. Please e-mail them >>> at: >>> share@hmco.com >>> >>> I hope you can spare the seconds . . . and let your friends >>> know. >>> So far they have only received 3,400 messages. Last year they >>> reached >>> 23,000. >>> >>> Thanks ________________________________________________________________ Do you believe in Macintosh? Please check out and join the EvangeList mailing list by sending an email to . --478386251-1804928587-850681363=:21799-- ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 15 Dec 1996 14:35:00 -0800 From: "R.L. Shep" Subject: Re: Suggestions for Rome and Florence? Katy Bishop wrote: > > > > Hello, all: > > > > I thought I'd ask the experts -- I'm going to be in Rome and Florence > > this January, and I was hoping to hit as many costume collections as > > possible. Any advice as to where to go? > > Also, if anyone knows of any armor collections, I know my husband would > > be thrilled. > > Italy is hard.... I tried to do a textile tour there once & I found that most of the museums has their textiles hidden away. Even with introductions to the curators it proved dificult. Prato... when I went the Textile Museum (Museum del Tessuto) was in something like a technical school (this was about 10 years ago) and all they had was a small informational exhibit that they used as a travelling exhibit. As I had made a special tripup from Florence, I was very dissapointed. However....there is a good museum in Florence that was not mentioned in the other message that went through today and tht is the Piti Palace. It is on the "left bank" of the Arno. They have had a lot of really beautiful costume exhibits and there ar a number of catalogs that hve been published on their exhibits. Good luck! I basically find the paintings more interesting in Italy than the search for actual textiles. ~!~ R.L. Shep > ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 16 Dec 1996 02:10:35 GMT From: David Brewer Subject: Re: Suggestions for Rome and Florence? In message vintage@NETCOM.COM writes: > On Sun, 15 Dec 1996, Astrida E B Schaeffer wrote: > > > Hello, all: > > > > I thought I'd ask the experts -- I'm going to be in Rome and Florence > > this January, and I was hoping to hit as many costume collections as > > possible. Any advice as to where to go? > > Also, if anyone knows of any armor collections, I know my husband would > > be thrilled. > > > > Thanks! > > Astrida > > There was a museum on the outskirts of Florence called the Stibbert > Museum, very out of the way but has a large costume collection, mostly > hanging in cases which are glass fronted. I was there about 11 years ago, > and don't have any more information about it on hand. If hubby is after arms and armour, then the Stibbert is the place to go. I visited it a few years ago and was both impressed and frustrated. It is one of Europe's finest collections. Unfortunately, it is possibly Florence's worst museum. Most Florentine museums are spendidly owned and run by the Commune. History is perhaps one of Florence's finest commodities and they know it. The Museo Stibbert is, however, not run by the Commune, being a private collection, presumably still owned by Stibbert's descendents (Stibbert was an associate of Garibaldi). One waits until the appointed time for a guided tour, which drags you round the whole place in a hour. No unattended persons, no photographs, no shop selling you pictures or catalogues. I was almost chucked out for taking snaps. The collection, as I recall it, consisted of some C15 arms and armour, much C16 A&A, more small swords and islamic firearms than any one man could shake a stick at and a huge pile of tedious (to me) Victoriana. So, you get ten minutes to look at the armour. Doubleplus ungood. Still, I have plenty of fine memories of Florence. The Duomo and the Ufizzi, natch. Check the view from among the tourist on the Piazza Michelangelo, then walk along the wall up to the Fortrezza and get a better view, with no tourists. -- David Brewer ------------------------------ End of H-COSTUME Digest - 14 Dec 1996 to 15 Dec 1996 **************************************************** From ???@??? Tue Dec 17 07:43:49 1996 Received: from brownvm.brown.edu by mail.math.TU-Berlin.DE with SMTP id AA17504 (5.67b8/IDA-1.5 for ); Tue, 17 Dec 1996 06:02:51 +0100 Message-Id: <199612170502.AA17504@mail.math.TU-Berlin.DE> Received: from BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU by BROWNVM.brown.edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with BSMTP id 9463; Tue, 17 Dec 96 00:01:46 EST Received: from BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU (NJE origin LISTSERV@BROWNVM) by BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 5882; Tue, 17 Dec 1996 00:01:45 -0500 Date: Tue, 17 Dec 1996 00:01:43 -0500 Reply-To: Historic Costume List Sender: Historic Costume List From: Automatic digest processor Subject: H-COSTUME Digest - 15 Dec 1996 to 16 Dec 1996 To: Recipients of H-COSTUME digests There are 8 messages totalling 218 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. unsubscribe 2. Suggestions for Rome and Florence? 3. "Liberty & Co." Bodice 4. Birds on hats (3) 5. Stuffed Birds (2) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 15 Dec 1996 22:18:02 -0800 From: Undetermined origin c/o LISTSERV maintainer Subject: unsubscribe Hi Can someone be so kind and show me the way to unsubscribe from this list. Thanks ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 15 Dec 1996 22:56:37 -0700 From: Julie Adams Subject: Re: Suggestions for Rome and Florence? >> no photographs, no shop selling you >>pictures or catalogues. I was almost chucked out for taking snaps. > >Luckily for us, when we were in Germany 3 years ago, most of the museums >let us take as many photos as we wanted -- as long as there was no flash. >We bought 1600 speed film and our pictures turned out fabulous. > >While the Stibbert probably still won't let you take pictures, if you >explain to most museums that you have no flash, they will often let you >take photos. > >Worth a try, but you need to buy your film here before you go. We never >found any more in Germany. Luckily we were warned in advance and were well >stocked. > >Julie Adams ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 16 Dec 1996 19:12:08 GMT From: "Reflections of the Past, Antiques" Subject: "Liberty & Co." Bodice Hello everyone! I would like to thank everyone who sent information regarding Liberty & Co., especially Teddy who phoned the Liberty Press Office and Archive for information. I have added photos of the bodice to my antique costume web site on the "Costume 1900-1930" section for those who would like to see the medieval styling of the piece. Another question... I found a bonnet C.1870's which is very tiny, probably a doll's, that has a real bird on top. I know the Victorians dressed their daughters very similar to their mother's fashions (corsets, bustles, etc), would they have gone as far with the bonnets and put a bird on top? My daughters (age 6) think it's "gross". ***************************************************** Joanne Haug "Victoriana-Resources for Victorian Living" http://www.victoriana.com and "Reflections of the Past, Antique Costume & Textiles" http://www.victoriana.com/antiques registry@victoriana.com Voice/Fax(216)835-6924 ***************************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 16 Dec 1996 12:36:05 -0800 From: Frances Grimble Subject: Birds on hats I know the Victorians dressed their > daughters very similar to their mother's fashions (corsets, bustles, etc), > would they have gone as far with the bonnets and put a bird on top? My > daughters (age 6) think it's "gross". Absolutely. Use of whole birds was fairly common in the late Victorian and Edwardian periods. I admit I think it's gross too. There is nothing rational or moral about this, since I have no objection to the use of feathers, fur, leather, or eating meat. But I am squeamish about wearing stuff that looks too much like the animal. Besides, I always wonder if the taxidermy job was good . . . probably nothing rational about that either. Fran Grimble ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 16 Dec 1996 16:09:04 -0800 From: "R.L. Shep" Subject: Re: Birds on hats Frances Grimble wrote: > > I know the Victorians dressed their > > daughters very similar to their mother's fashions (corsets, bustles, etc), > > would they have gone as far with the bonnets and put a bird on top? My > > daughters (age 6) think it's "gross". > > Absolutely. Use of whole birds was fairly common in the late Victorian > and Edwardian periods. I admit I think it's gross too. There is > nothing rational or moral about this, since I have no objection to the > use of feathers, fur, leather, or eating meat. But I am squeamish about > wearing stuff that looks too much like the animal. Besides, I always > wonder if the taxidermy job was good . . . probably nothing rational > about that either. > > Fran Grimble There is a wonderful bit in one of the E.F. Benson "Mapp & Lucia" books where a woman's (Mrs. Wise, I believe) buggie gets out of its cage and into a couch where it is sat on and killed. She has it stuffed and put on her hat. She refers to it as "blue birdie." ~!~ R.L. Shep ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 16 Dec 1996 19:03:22 -0500 From: "Penny E. Ladnier" Subject: Stuffed Birds I do not know if children had birds on their costumes but I did have a strange experience with this. Last year in Costume History class, my professor discussed the act of using stuffed birds on hats during the 1890's. I thought it was an odd, and left it at that. Later, that summer while doing an internship at the Valentine museum, I happened upon a box titled "birds". I asked the curator, was that same type birds used on hats during the 1890's and where they once live birds that were stuffed. She said, "Yes." Well, after a couple of days thought and alot of curiousity...I opened the box. Oh, my stomach turned. Somehow, they did not look as pretty as the pictures of those hats. The next semester in costume design, we worked on a play based on the 1890's. The previously mentioned professor wanted us to draw birds on hats. On my stomach turned again. I told her my ladies will be without birds, and explained why. The curiousity certainly did this cat in. Penny Penny E. Ladnier, Virginia Commonwealth University s0peladn@erols.com http://www.geocities.com/BourbonStreet/2157 member: Costume Society of America American Fashion Council Association for Information Systems Professionals ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 16 Dec 1996 20:50:47 -0400 From: lukelep@NECA.COM Subject: Re: Stuffed Birds Penny, Not meaning to bring back bad memories, but was it that the birds were just badly stuffed or very old or what? Just wondering. :-} Lisa >Last year in Costume History class, my professor discussed the act of using >stuffed birds on hats during the 1890's. I thought it was an odd, and left >it at that. Later, that summer while doing an internship at the Valentine >museum, I happened upon a box titled "birds". I asked the curator, was that >same type birds used on hats during the 1890's and where they once live >birds that were stuffed. She said, "Yes." Well, after a couple of days >thought and alot of curiousity...I opened the box. Oh, my stomach turned. >Somehow, they did not look as pretty as the pictures of those hats. > >The next semester in costume design, we worked on a play based on the >1890's. The previously mentioned professor wanted us to draw birds on hats. >On my stomach turned again. I told her my ladies will be without birds, and >explained why. >The curiousity certainly did this cat in. > >Penny > >Penny E. Ladnier, Virginia Commonwealth University >s0peladn@erols.com >http://www.geocities.com/BourbonStreet/2157 >member: >Costume Society of America >American Fashion Council >Association for Information Systems Professionals ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 16 Dec 1996 23:23:25 -0500 From: Ed Safford & Carol Kocian Subject: Birds on hats Joanne Haug wrote, >Another question... I found a bonnet C.1870's which is very tiny, probably a >doll's, that has a real bird on top. I know the Victorians dressed their >daughters very similar to their mother's fashions (corsets, bustles, etc), >would they have gone as far with the bonnets and put a bird on top? There is a photo by Belloq of a woman in a hat that has what look like real bird wings on it. Belloq (I may be spelling this wrong!) photographed prostitutes in the Storyville section of New Orleans in the very early 20thC. The movie _Pretty Baby_ (the 1970's shocker starring the young Brooke Shields) based many costumes & scenes on Belloq's work. And yes, Brooke is wearing the bird wing hat in one scene. Anyway, to answer the question, if they were using bird wings, I wouldn't be surprised if they used the whole bird at times. -Carol *^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^* This account is shared by Carol Kocian and Ed Safford. Carol can also be e-mailed at ckocian@epe.org Ed is also at esafford@sun1.wwb.noaa.gov . ------------------------------ End of H-COSTUME Digest - 15 Dec 1996 to 16 Dec 1996 **************************************************** From ???@??? Wed Dec 18 12:38:27 1996 Received: from brownvm.brown.edu by mail.math.TU-Berlin.DE with SMTP id AA26220 (5.67b8/IDA-1.5 for ); Wed, 18 Dec 1996 06:02:44 +0100 Message-Id: <199612180502.AA26220@mail.math.TU-Berlin.DE> Received: from BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU by BROWNVM.brown.edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with BSMTP id 1663; Wed, 18 Dec 96 00:01:38 EST Received: from BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU (NJE origin LISTSERV@BROWNVM) by BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 0284; Wed, 18 Dec 1996 00:01:36 -0500 Date: Wed, 18 Dec 1996 00:01:33 -0500 Reply-To: Historic Costume List Sender: Historic Costume List From: Automatic digest processor Subject: H-COSTUME Digest - 16 Dec 1996 to 17 Dec 1996 To: Recipients of H-COSTUME digests There are 19 messages totalling 510 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. MEDATS 2. Costume Software 3. nalbinding 4. Birds on hats (3) 5. Silhouette form (5) 6. Stuffed Bird cautions 7. Book on Silk 8. Birds on hats/"Immortal Beloved" 9. My Double Dress Form 10. Desperate writer needs help (4) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 17 Dec 1996 09:30:00 GMT From: "Chandler, Sally A." Subject: MEDATS OK - I'm organised now. The Knitting Conference in London I referred to is entitled 'Knitting Before 1600: Unravelling the Evidence' It's on Saturday 8th March and the contributors include: Dr Richard Rutt (of 'A History of Hand Knitting' fame) Dr Bill Cooke on the use of a scanning electron microscope in the identification of archaeological finds Dr Dominique Cardon - French liturgical gloves Montse Stanley - 13th century knitted cushions Kirstie Buckkland - the British medieval capping industry Dr Jutta Baumel - the silk trunk hose of the Elector of Saxony Janet Arnold - Knitted stockings esp Eleonora's & Queen Elizabeth's and lots of tea - well, we are British! The cost is ?10 for non-members. Booking info from: Dr Jane Bridgeman, MEDATS Programme Secretary, 2 Granville Square, London WC1X 9PF Best wishes, Sally Ann Chandler The Historical Clothing Company s.a.chandler@shu.ac.uk ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 17 Dec 1996 07:44:12 PST From: Gia Gavino-Gattshall Subject: Re: Costume Software Hi Jessica (and Sharon, too!), I have an issue of "Threads" magazine that did an article on computer software for fitting and pattern making. September 1995, issue number 60. Page 40, "Can a Computer Solve Your Fitting Problems?" It reviews pattern making programs and does include computer and other hardware requirements, prices and ordering information. It reviews: "Dress Shop 2.0" , "Personal Patterns", and "Fittingly Sew". Fittingly Sew is available for the Mac and Dress Shop was working on a Mac version when this article went to press. I hope this helps in your search; the companies may be able to help you locate other programs for the computer that I don't know about and would also be interested. Gia Gavino-Gattshall ggavino@u.washington.edu usual disclaimer not an employee of the publishing company, etc... > Hello everyone! > > I am posting this for my housemate, who is resident costume designer at our > local university. She has been asked to put in her request for computer > software for the costume shop's new computer (!!!) and would like to have a > better idea of what's available. Anything dealing with pattern drafting, > costume history, wardrobe organization, or any other organizational tools for > that matter, would be most helpful. > > Thank you in advance for your input! > > Sincerely, > Jessica Scoblick > ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 17 Dec 1996 12:12:44 -0500 From: Tess Parrish Subject: nalbinding Dear friends, Between October 19 and 23 I sent out fifty copies of the nalbinding information. To date, there are still thirteen people who haven't helped me pay my bills. I don't want to be so crude as to post names, because I know that most people are full of good intentions and that all sorts of things come up. However, in case you are like so many others who misplaced or lost my name and address, it is: Tess Parrish, RR1-Box 323C, Yarmouth, ME 04096, and I was asking for $4. (A grateful thanks to those who sent bonuses.) If you have a question, EMail me at tess1929@aol.com. Thanks, Tess ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 17 Dec 1996 13:52:17 -0500 From: Kathy Wells Subject: Re: Birds on hats -- [ From: Kathy Wells * EMC.Ver #2.5.02 ] -- ------- FORWARD, Original message follows ------- Date: Monday, 16-Dec-96 12:36 PM Fran Grimble wrote: Use of whole birds was fairly common in the late Victorian and Edwardian periods. I admit I think it's gross too. There is nothing rational or moral about this, since I have no objection to the use of feathers, fur, leather, or eating meat. But I am squeamish about wearing stuff that looks too much like the animal. Besides, I always wonder if the taxidermy job was good . . . probably nothing rational about that either. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fake birds, like Christmas tree ornaments give this effects but takes the blood and guts out of the headwear. They are easy to work with and pretty common this time of the year. Kathy Wells ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 17 Dec 1996 10:24:30 PST From: DGC3%Rates%FAR@GO50.COMP.PGE.COM Subject: Re: Birds on hats I can sympathise with Penny. I am not that squeamish, but the thought of opening a box of 100-year-old stuffed birds, in any condition, sends shivers down my spine. The exhibit of John James Audobon bird prints that was in San Francisco a year ago ended with a collection of Victorian hats with birds, including one with an entire flock of tiny critters on top--I think it's from a museum collection in Philadelphia. Perhaps someone else has a picture citation for it? (Perhaps someone else is posting it even now-- I am responding to the digest and always feel a bit out of the loop.) Danine ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Danine Cozzens Internet: dgc3@pge.com Phone: 415/973-1388 Pacific Gas and Electric Company San Francisco, CA ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 17 Dec 1996 15:06:20 -0500 From: Kathleen Songal Subject: Silhouette form Please give me suggestions you have used to solve the following problem. I now have the 1810 corset completed and I want to put it on a dress form so I can drape and fit clothing to fit the proper silhouette. I have found it impractical to put myself into the corset and try and fit the garment to myself everytime I want to check fit. However, the dress forms on the market have the modern silhouette...for example the shoulder to bustline measurement is not short enough. The bust is too low to put the corset on the form because the bust cannot be raised any shorter. This problem is probably encountered more by short people...those under 5'3. Does anyone have any solutions? Thanking you in advance, Kathy Songal ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 17 Dec 1996 11:16:11 MST From: Chuck Diters Subject: Stuffed Bird cautions Friends, Watching the recent flow of birds-on-hats postings leads me to want to post a very real caution for those of you who may encounter such stuffed birds (or other stuffed animals) in museum collections. Until not too terribly long ago, museums routinely used a variety of _VERY_ toxic substances to preserve animal mounts, including such things as dusting with arsenic powder. This is also true of collections of fabric. I apparently lived through moving a lot of historical clothing at the Dartmouth College Museum in the late '60's, but it was probably more through good luck than any inherent virtue. The Victorians may or may not have used such poisonous treatments on birds they were using, but well-meaning curators in the meantime may have. I, for one, would be very cautious about opening a "box of hundred year old birds." Just a word to the wise. ************************************************************************ Chuck Diters/Bjarni Edwardsson West/Oertha/Eskalya 9541 Victor Road, Anchorage, AK 99515-1470 ph: (907)344-5753 Email: chuck_diters@mail.fws.gov "Outside of a dog, a book is a man's best friend. Inside of a dog, it's too dark to read." ************************************************************************ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 17 Dec 1996 14:21:00 CST From: "Lassman, Linda" Subject: Book on Silk As I was walking past the new book display in the University Library today, my eye was caught by a coffee-table-sized book entitled SILK, by Jacques Anquetil. I didn't have much time to look through it, but the chapter titles are: The Origins of Silk Weaving; Silk Weaving in Europe, Renaissance Italy, The Silk Industry in Tours and Lyon, The China Trade, The Golden Age of Silk, Change and Continuity, Luxury and Technology; The Silk Revival, The Tradition of Fine Silk; Bibliography, Glossary, Index, Acknowledgements. It's full of colour pictures, some of artwork, but mostly actual fabrics and artifacts. The publisher is Flammarion (Paris, New York), the ISBN is 2-08013-616-X and the copyright is 1995. Has anyone out there seen it and is there a review/opinion of it? I've put it on hold, but someone is ahead of me in the queue, so now I'm really frustrated that I won't have a chance to really go through it until who-knows-when! - Linda Lassman Winnipeg, Manitoba ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 17 Dec 1996 13:02:04 -0800 From: Katy Bishop Subject: Re: Silhouette form Dear Kathleen, I use the Uniquely You dress forms. They are foam. The covers that come with them, that you fit to your body, are good but need higher neck and short sleeves to adjust the shoulder width and neck circumference. Not perfect but the most versatile since they can be corseted. I made a cover when I worked at the MFA in Boston to fit a minuscule 1890's gown, with small neck, narrow shoulders and high corseted bust. It was difficult to squeeze the small cover onto the dress form but the results were quite accurate. Katy Katy Bishop, Vintage Victorian vintage@netcom.com Custom reproduction gowns of the Victorian Era. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 17 Dec 1996 12:56:41 -0800 From: Frances Grimble Subject: Re: Silhouette form Kathleen Songal wrote: > > Please give me suggestions you have used to solve the following problem. I > now have the 1810 corset completed and I want to put it on a dress form so I > can drape and fit clothing to fit the proper silhouette. I have found it > impractical to put myself into the corset and try and fit the garment to > myself everytime I want to check fit. However, the dress forms on the > market have the modern silhouette...for example the shoulder to bustline > measurement is not short enough. The bust is too low to put the corset on > the form because the bust cannot be raised any shorter. This problem is > probably encountered more by short people...those under 5'3. Does anyone > have any solutions? I am 4'9" and have one of those foam dress forms that you customize to your shape by tailoring the fabric cover to squish the foam to your measurements. But actually, I have my husband fit all my corsets and close-fitting bodices on me. I use the dress form to fit looser garments, see how style ideas look in muslin, pin alterations, stuff like that. I might use it to fit corsets if my husband weren't around, but I like to know how they work on a real body. I'd actually like one of those hard dress forms with the dials that allow you to move sections around. But I can't find one that will allow customization of the lenghthwise distance between the waist and hips, to about 2" shorter than "average." I could probably pad the hips to be higher. But I feel if they're going to design a customizable form they should have more sections you can move. Fran Grimble ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 17 Dec 1996 21:37:03 GMT From: "Reflections of the Past, Antiques" Subject: Re: Birds on hats/"Immortal Beloved" Hi! Pictures of the bonnet that I was referring to when this discussion began is now on my web site in the "Hats & Bonnets" section if anyone would like to see it. The hat is tiny... about 5 inches in diameter, but it is still a whole bird. http://www.victoriana.com/antiques/hats/hats.html. There are also lots of other hats on the site from c.1790-1920. One early black bonnet looks like it came straight from the funeral scene of "Immortal Beloved" Did anyone see this last night on HBO? I thought the costumes were great, especially the evening gowns. Some of the day wear and accessories looked a little too authentic to have been repro. ***************************************************** Joanne Haug "Victoriana-Resources for Victorian Living" http://www.victoriana.com and "Reflections of the Past, Antique Costume & Textiles" http://www.victoriana.com/antiques registry@victoriana.com Voice/Fax(216)835-6924 ***************************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 17 Dec 1996 17:22:22 EST From: "Lisa M. Hanneman" Subject: Re: Silhouette form Hi, Try the Uniquely You dress form. I have it on order, so have not seen it yet, but you have someone pin the fabric cover to you very tightly, in a specific series of steps, sewing it when they tell you to, pinning more, sewing more... Then you put it on over the foam dress form, compressing the foam into the cover you just made to fit your body. You end up with a dress form that looks just like your shape. You could do this wearing the corset, I would think. If you are up to it, you can rip out your stitches and resize the cover if your body shape changes. Or, maybe you can order additional covers if you want to do them for different corsets. I ordered the dress form from the JoAnne's fabric store near me (Sat). They may still have it on sale for $99. I also ordered the pants form. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 17 Dec 1996 15:57:24 MST From: Computer Programmer Subject: Re: Silhouette form Frances Grimble Wrote: | I'd actually like one of those hard dress forms with the | dials that allow you to move sections around. But I can't | find one that will allow customization of the lenghthwise | distance between the waist and hips, to about 2" shorter | than "average." I could probably pad the hips to be | higher. But I feel if they're going to design a customizable | form they should have more sections you can move. | | Fran Grimble | I've got a "My Double" Dress form which allows adjustment of the lengthwise distance between the waist and hips. It works pretty well. I'm 5'3" and "short-waisted" so this was pretty important. The only problems I've had with the form are with the adjustments around the neck. If you have to make too many "non-proportional" adjustments, the neck just refused to adjust to the correct size. It breaks down for transport pretty well, comes in a small, medium, or large, allows adjustment of neck, bust, waist, hips, waist length and height, but won't take much pinning unless you're really careful and really doesn't like to be corsetted tightly. Oh, there was the problem with having to reach the adjustment knobs after dressing her with an entire elizabethan outfit from the skin out and the bodice just wouldn't fasten, but that was strictly user error. :) I believe these are carried by large chain fabric stores in the United States. They may do mail order as well. I picked this one up at a Cloth World in Colorado. Lyssa mgriggs@shepards.com or Lyssa@kktv.com http://www.usa.net/~norseman/dragon.html ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 17 Dec 1996 17:18:25 -0800 From: Frances Grimble Subject: My Double Dress Form Lyssa, I have a current _Sew News_ with an ad for the "My Double" dress form. The ad says it can be adjusted for waist length (that is the distance between the neck and the waist), and there are lines in the picture that indicate this. The ad doesn't say the form can be adjusted for _length_ between the waist and the hips; that is below the waist; and the picture does not indicate this ability. What model do you have that allows you to do this? Fran Grimble ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 17 Dec 1996 18:46:37 -0700 From: Dave & Xina Marie Uhl Subject: Desperate writer needs help Hi folks! I'm writing a fantasy set in a pseudo Greek/Roman world in which the hero wears one of those skirt-things the Roman soldiers wore. I've been calling it a 'kilt' but have gotten feedback that it sounds too Celtic. Any ideas what the proper term is? Or at least one that sounds better. Also what should I call his shirt? A tunic? I appreciate any help anyone can give me. Thanks so much! Xina Marie Uhl ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 17 Dec 1996 19:49:53 -0700 From: Jeff Gottfred Subject: Re: Birds on hats I never thought my birding knowledge would prove useful here! Actually, the whole stuffed birds on women's hats were the tip of the iceberg. The plume trade killed hundreds of birds so that milliners would have their feathers, wings, and (sometimes) whole stuffed bodies to put on hats. Hit earliest and hardest were the egrets, who had very long, showy white breeding plumes. Despite protestations to the contrary later, adult birds in breeding plumage were killed for the sake of their fresh new breeding plumes; moulted plumes or plumes from dead birds were unsuitable because they were dirty and worn. In 1886, ornithologist Frank Chapman walked New York streets, looking for the birds on women's hats; of 700 hats, 75% had birds or parts of them on the hats. Chapman spotted 40 native North American species, including from waxwings, terns, robins, snow buntings, woodpeckers, and buluebirds. (Many birders can identify birds by the feathers alone; it's just a variation on field identification.) The plume trade started in the 1850's; by 1902, London auctions sold 1,608 30-oz packages of egret plumes in a single year. It takes four adult breeding egrets to produce a single ounce of plumes, so you can guess what devastation was being wrought on the egret populations alone. After a consciousness-raising campaign by conservationists, women stopped buying feathered hats, and by the beginning of World War I, the fashion was at an end. For more details, see _The Birder's Handbook_, by Ehrlich, Dobkin, & Wheye, pp 37-41 (ISBN 0-671-62133-5. --Angela Gottfred gottfred@agt.net ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 17 Oct 1996 20:11:29 -0700 From: Margo Anderson Subject: Re: Desperate writer needs help At 06:46 PM 12/17/96 -0700, you wrote: >Hi folks! > >I'm writing a fantasy set in a pseudo Greek/Roman world in which the hero >wears one of those skirt-things the Roman soldiers wore. I've been calling >it a 'kilt' but have gotten feedback that it sounds too Celtic. Any ideas >what the proper term is? Or at least one that sounds better. > >Also what should I call his shirt? A tunic? The "kilt" is actually part of the armour, and is called a Lorica Segmentae (sp?) I believe there is a specific name for a soldier's tunic, but I have usually seen it called a tunic in fiction. Try your local library for books that will give you a basic grounding in Greco/Roman culture and arts. Margo Anderson ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 17 Dec 1996 23:29:13 -0500 From: J&B Subject: Re: Desperate writer needs help Sorry, lost the name or initial questioner- The upper part of roman armor is a "lorica" (cuirass in english.) The lower part, the skirt, is the "lorica segmentae." - Bob Skiba ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 17 Dec 1996 23:36:10 -0400 From: lukelep@NECA.COM Subject: Re: Desperate writer needs help Might I suggest an excellent book called, "Roman Military Equipment" by M.C. Bishop & J.C.N. Coulston, ISBN 0713466375. The basic garments of a Roman soldier of the early empire was the tunic (probably two rectangles of cloth with holes for the arms and head), the belt(s) (known as the cingulum militare or balteus) and the 'apron' which I think you are confusing as a kilt. It was in actuality a series of as many as 8 leather strips (about 1/2 wide) studded with metal plates ending in metal terminals. To these garments would be added body armor, helmets, swords and shields. >Hi folks! > >I'm writing a fantasy set in a pseudo Greek/Roman world in which the hero >wears one of those skirt-things the Roman soldiers wore. I've been calling >it a 'kilt' but have gotten feedback that it sounds too Celtic. Any ideas >what the proper term is? Or at least one that sounds better. > >Also what should I call his shirt? A tunic? > >I appreciate any help anyone can give me. > >Thanks so much! > >Xina Marie Uhl ------------------------------ End of H-COSTUME Digest - 16 Dec 1996 to 17 Dec 1996 **************************************************** From ???@??? Thu Dec 19 11:11:10 1996 Received: from brownvm.brown.edu by mail.math.TU-Berlin.DE with SMTP id AA03932 (5.67b8/IDA-1.5 for ); Thu, 19 Dec 1996 06:02:03 +0100 Message-Id: <199612190502.AA03932@mail.math.TU-Berlin.DE> Received: from BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU by BROWNVM.brown.edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with BSMTP id 2864; Thu, 19 Dec 96 00:00:51 EST Received: from BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU (NJE origin LISTSERV@BROWNVM) by BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 1801; Thu, 19 Dec 1996 00:00:50 -0500 Date: Thu, 19 Dec 1996 00:00:46 -0500 Reply-To: Historic Costume List Sender: Historic Costume List From: Automatic digest processor Subject: H-COSTUME Digest - 17 Dec 1996 to 18 Dec 1996 To: Recipients of H-COSTUME digests There are 7 messages totalling 231 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. desperate writer needs help re ROMAN clothes for males 2. silk book 3. My Double Dress Form 4. MEDATS (2) 5. Book on Silk 6. HALF-SIZES IN SHOES ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 17 Dec 1996 21:18:43 -0800 From: legixhis@ELECTRICITI.COM Subject: desperate writer needs help re ROMAN clothes for males Greetings, Please, pardon any redundancy. from Gaius Valerius Tacitus Hibernicus primus pilus et paterlegionis Legio IX Hispana, (usa) The "kilt" refered to is most likely the dagging seen extending below lorica hamata (chain mail) or "beastplates", often worn by "officers". The garment in question is a pteruges. A pteruges is a padded shirt with dags or tabs attached at the waist and sleeves. Most likely made of fabric making it launderable, not leather. The padded shirt without dags is called "subarmalis". The basic garment worn by soldiers was a tunica, usually wool, and on a cold day he would wear more than one. Bracae, pants. Neckerchief, focale. "foe kah lay" Tibiale, socks. Sometimes depicted as a wrapping by strips of fabric with the toes and hels exposed. Or as a formed sewn bootie of woven wool fabric. Helps? Vale! Gaius ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 18 Dec 1996 09:04:22 -0800 From: Susan Fatemi Subject: silk book The "Silk" book is gorgeous and definately on my wish list. Really good close-up photographs of detail on garments, etc. (and as everyone knows, I'm not that interested in European costume) However it is $60 and not nearly as substantial as the "Book of Silk". BUT Ed. Hamilton books has it in their latest catalogue for $45 or so. Susan Fatemi susanf@eerc.berkeley.edu >------------------------------ > >Date: Tue, 17 Dec 1996 14:21:00 CST >From: "Lassman, Linda" >Subject: Book on Silk > >As I was walking past the new book display in the University Library today, >my eye was caught by a coffee-table-sized book entitled SILK, by Jacques >Anquetil. I didn't have much time to look through it, but the chapter >titles are: The Origins of Silk Weaving; Silk Weaving in Europe, >Renaissance Italy, The Silk Industry in Tours and Lyon, The China Trade, The >Golden Age of Silk, Change and Continuity, Luxury and Technology; The Silk >Revival, The Tradition of Fine Silk; Bibliography, Glossary, Index, >Acknowledgements. It's full of colour pictures, some of artwork, but mostly >actual fabrics and artifacts. > >The publisher is Flammarion (Paris, New York), the ISBN is 2-08013-616-X and >the copyright is 1995. > >Has anyone out there seen it and is there a review/opinion of it? > >I've put it on hold, but someone is ahead of me in the queue, so now I'm >really frustrated that I won't have a chance to really go through it until >who-knows-when! > > - Linda Lassman > Winnipeg, Manitoba > ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 18 Dec 1996 10:56:52 MST From: Computer Programmer Subject: Re: My Double Dress Form Frances Grimble Wrote: | I have a current _Sew News_ with an ad for the "My Double" | dress form. The ad says it can be adjusted for waist length | (that is the distance between the neck and the waist), and | there are lines in the picture that indicate this. The ad | doesn't say the form can be adjusted for _length_ between | the waist and the hips; that is below the waist; and the | picture does not indicate this ability. What model do you | have that allows you to do this? | | Fran Grimble | Fran, You're absolutely right. The My Double will only adjust from shoulder to waist. For some reason I thought that was the measurement you needed. Sorry! Guess I'm not much help after all. :) I'll keep my eyes open for a form which will adjust below the waist, though! Lyssa mgriggs@shepards.com or Lyssa@kktv.com http://www.usa.net/~norseman/dragon.html ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 18 Dec 1996 13:12:37 -0500 From: Elizabeth McMahon Subject: Re: MEDATS On Tue, 17 Dec 1996, Chandler, Sally A. wrote: > OK - I'm organised now. The Knitting Conference in London I referred to is > entitled 'Knitting Before 1600: Unravelling the Evidence' It's on Saturday > 8th March and the contributors include: > > Dr Richard Rutt (of 'A History of Hand Knitting' fame) > Dr Bill Cooke on the use of a scanning electron microscope in the > identification of archaeological finds > Dr Dominique Cardon - French liturgical gloves > Montse Stanley - 13th century knitted cushions > Kirstie Buckkland - the British medieval capping industry > Dr Jutta Baumel - the silk trunk hose of the Elector of Saxony > Janet Arnold - Knitted stockings esp Eleonora's & Queen Elizabeth's > > and lots of tea - well, we are British! Sounds nifty, but I don't think I'll be there. Now for the really important question, Are they publishing the proceedings? And Where do I get a copy of same? *-*-*-*-*-*- Beth at work, (sans) cat in lap (sometimes known as Mistress Elizabeth Talbot, Lady Gendy) Shouldn't I be sewing something? (probably) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 18 Dec 1996 10:36:56 PST From: Gia Gavino-Gattshall Subject: Re: MEDATS Oh, I'd be interested, too (since I also cannot be there! Boohoo!) Could you please answer this on the list? Thanks muchly! Gia Gavino-Gattshall SCA, Lady Giacinta da Venezia > On Tue, 17 Dec 1996, Chandler, Sally A. wrote: > > > OK - I'm organised now. The Knitting Conference in London I referred to is > > entitled 'Knitting Before 1600: Unravelling the Evidence' It's on Saturday > > 8th March and the contributors include: > > > > Dr Richard Rutt (of 'A History of Hand Knitting' fame) > > Dr Bill Cooke on the use of a scanning electron microscope in the > > identification of archaeological finds > > Dr Dominique Cardon - French liturgical gloves > > Montse Stanley - 13th century knitted cushions > > Kirstie Buckkland - the British medieval capping industry > > Dr Jutta Baumel - the silk trunk hose of the Elector of Saxony > > Janet Arnold - Knitted stockings esp Eleonora's & Queen Elizabeth's > > > > and lots of tea - well, we are British! > > Sounds nifty, but I don't think I'll be there. Now for the really > important question, Are they publishing the proceedings? And Where do I > get a copy of same? > > > *-*-*-*-*-*- > Beth at work, (sans) cat in lap > (sometimes known as Mistress Elizabeth Talbot, Lady Gendy) > Shouldn't I be sewing something? (probably) > ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 18 Dec 1996 18:13:40 -0500 From: Christine Robb Subject: Book on Silk I saw it a while ago, flipped through briefly, and remembered it fondly after. I finally decided I really wanted it, and found it again in the Royal Ontario Museum gift shop. It's sitting under the tree waiting for me. =) While I was deciding if I really wanted it or not, I looked for similar books, and found this one superior for my interests. It explains the history of silk in some detail, but focusses more on Western European uses rather than Eastern uses. There's a similar book, entitled 'The book of Silk' which goes into greater depth on the ancient history and less so on the more recent history. It's also cheaper. 'Silk' has many really wonderful pictures in it too. Christine ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 18 Dec 1996 19:14:33 -0500 From: "Nancy L. Saputo" Subject: HALF-SIZES IN SHOES "SHOEPEDIA" (printed in 1946 by the Footwear Industries of America) states that in 1880 half-sizes in shoes were introduced. I recently purchased a pair of lady's half-boots, mauve cotton, side-lacing, no heel, which I know are pre-1880. The size "4-1/2" is handwritten in ink inside. Perhaps the shoes are English or French in origin? Does anyone know when half-sizes were introduced in England or France? Nancy ------------------------------ End of H-COSTUME Digest - 17 Dec 1996 to 18 Dec 1996 **************************************************** From ???@??? Fri Dec 20 14:55:19 1996 Received: from brownvm.brown.edu by mail.math.TU-Berlin.DE with SMTP id AA11874 (5.67b8/IDA-1.5 for ); Fri, 20 Dec 1996 06:03:03 +0100 Message-Id: <199612200503.AA11874@mail.math.TU-Berlin.DE> Received: from BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU by BROWNVM.brown.edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with BSMTP id 5231; Fri, 20 Dec 96 00:01:49 EST Received: from BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU (NJE origin LISTSERV@BROWNVM) by BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 2084; Fri, 20 Dec 1996 00:01:48 -0500 Date: Fri, 20 Dec 1996 00:01:45 -0500 Reply-To: Historic Costume List Sender: Historic Costume List From: Automatic digest processor Subject: H-COSTUME Digest - 18 Dec 1996 to 19 Dec 1996 To: Recipients of H-COSTUME digests There are 21 messages totalling 593 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. The Fashion Report 2. wing collar&black tie (2) 3. H-COSTUME Digest - 15 Dec 1996 to 16 Dec 1996 4. Verbosity (5) 5. Birds on hats 6. Longcloth (2) 7. Re Longcloth 8. verbosity 9. costume book 10. Roman clothing 11. 1815 Fashion Plates 12. 18th & 19th C. Reticules/Purses 13. HALF-SIZES IN SHOES 14. job posting in Philly area 15. BRIEF! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 19 Dec 1996 04:12:18 -0500 From: Damion * Subject: The Fashion Report Hello: I think that some of you might be interested in a new weekly e-newsletter that I've just created, THE FASHION REPORT. It's FREE. It's all about fashion, news about fashion, interviews with people in the fashion industry, reviews of fashion collections, fashion books, etc.. The first issue will be sent on December 24, 1996. If you're interested simply send the message SUBSCRIBE to the address TFR@QUEST-NET.COM Oh, if you would like YOUR fashion-related web site listed in TFR's weekly "Online Guide" section please let me know. The listing is FREE, but you must have a link to TFR on your site. Write to Damion at DAMION001@AOL.COM for more information. Thank you, Damion ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 18 Dec 1996 22:48:08 -0800 From: "Lawrence H. Kincaid Jr." Subject: wing collar&black tie Carol: I read your post of Dec 7;With black tie, a regular collar shirt is worn, not a wing-collar shirt. Wing collars with black tie expose the black band of the tie,and that makes the neck look dirty. Tonight wed Dec 18 I attended the last dance at the Press Club in San Francisco after 38 months at this venue played by the Royal Society Jazz Orchestra. I walked into the club wearing a tuxedo, black vest, white shirt with turndown collar, black bow tie, black laether gloves and a homburg. The first person I see is Shawn Cunningham(of the Art Deco Society)wearing a tux black bow tie and white shirt with turn down collar. The second person I see is Dennis Harrison another collector of vintage clothing.Dennis had a tux, white shirt with a WING collar he had a BLACK bow tie on. After the usual greetings I commented on his choice of collars. Whereupon both men defended the white wing collar and black tie combo position Quoting words from Jon Lundberg of Kensington CA a dealer of vintage mens wear of the 20s 30s 40s eras. They said look at the old movies. I mentioned your letter. Then I heard; did you say a woman wrote the e-mail. I shall call Mr Lundberg and talk to more people about this before new years. sincerly larry Kincaid Jr. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 19 Dec 1996 09:34:36 -0500 From: Heather Leigh Harrison Subject: Re: H-COSTUME Digest - 15 Dec 1996 to 16 Dec 1996 Another tidbit about birds on hats in the 19th century. The famous Dr. Elizabeth Blackwell (or was it Emily...anyway, it was one of the female Dr. Blackwell's) always dreamt of having a bonnet with a whole bird on it..... her dream came true! ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 19 Dec 1996 09:29:31 -0500 From: Dale Loberger Subject: Verbosity My hubby relates to me that there has been consternation on the part of some members over the unmitigated use of verbiage on this list. As one of the worst offenders, if I may take up your time with a few comments and observations: 1. It is true that "proper etiquette" for e-mail requires brevity in all things. Some of us are just rude and/or ignorant, but most of us are just plain talky. ;-) Many of us know this, and know who the talky ones are. If not, we eventually get to know them, and then can choose to weed out our mailbox if we so desire. It is difficult, also, for the people who only get the digest version, I understand, because often they only receive part of a long post and miss some of the good stuff. 2. It is also true that some of us get carried away with our posts to the list. In the interest in keeping our neighbors mailboxes uncluttered, please consider sending posts to the people most interested in hearing from you. The shotgun approach is inefficient and uncaring. 3. Please refrain from giving out others names, addresses, e-mail addresses, and phone numbers on this list unless you have specifically asked the party if they mind receiving requests for information or free advice from all over the world. As the recipient of more phone calls than I can possibly return some days, I quake for their sanity, I really do. 4. I wonder if we have scared people off this list who in the past provided so much refreshing insight, thought-provoking questions, and intriguing observation by our somewhat strident tone lately. I miss voices like Ysabeau s, for instance, among others. Does anyone know if she is still out there? There. Somewhat brief and to the point. If I can do it, so can we all. Everyone have a merry holiday and happy new year! Susannah Eanes, Mantua Maker and Fine Tailoring (Susan Bridges Loberger for Susannah s Heirloom, Ltd.) "We are only the trustees for those that come after us." William Morris ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 19 Dec 1996 09:31:08 -0500 From: Dale Loberger Subject: Re: Birds on hats I can t resist sharing this gem from "The Last Cuckoo: The Very Best Letters to The [London] Times Since 1900" written by Bertrand Russell, "who rails spiritedly against the unregulated dress of women at the Covent Garden Opera House: "this lady, whose hair was very black, had stuck over her right ear the pitiable corpse of a large white bird, which looked exactly as if someone had killed it by stamping on its breast, and then nailed it to the lady s temple, which was presumably of sufficient solidity to bear the operation." Comment would be superfluous. Merry merry! Susannah Eanes, Mantua Maker and Fine Tailoring (Susan Bridges Loberger for Susannah s Heirloom, Ltd.) "We are only the trustees for those that come after us." William Morris ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 19 Dec 1996 09:38:48 -0500 From: Dale Loberger Subject: Longcloth >KNICKERS - 1890s (women) an under-garment similar to knickerbockers but >usually made of flannel or longcloth, and worn instead of drawers and >often without a petticoat. I ve seen the term "longcloth" used in Cunnington before, and I can t seem to find any definition for what it is. From the usage I am inclined to think it is a type of woolen fabric, but does anyone out there know for sure? Thanks! Susannah Eanes ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 19 Dec 1996 10:37:42 -0500 From: "Nancy L. Saputo" Subject: Longcloth LONGCLOTH: Longcloth is a high-quality, soft textile, executed in a plain weave. It has a slight luster. Today it is both sized and calendered and is found in cotton and cotton-blends. Its name is derived from the fact that it is one of the first fabrics that was made in long pieces. Encyclopedia of Textiles (Judith Jerde-1992) Nancy Saputo ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 19 Dec 1996 15:53:54 GMT From: Mary Subject: Re Longcloth Susannah Eanes wrote:- >I ve seen the term "longcloth" used in Cunnington before, and I can t >seem to find any definition for what it is. From the usage I am >inclined to think it is a type of woolen fabric, but does anyone out >there know for sure? I can't claim to know for sure but, my understanding of the term is a fine cotton cloth, tightly woven. I seem to associate it with baby garments, but can't remember why. However I am sure the name comes from the weave. I hope these pointers help in further research. Mary --- ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 19 Dec 1996 11:14:03 -0500 From: J&B Subject: Re: wing collar&black tie As to the question of stand up or turn down collars with tuxedos - The collection of illustrations I have from the turn of the century, when the tuxedo was new, show both stand-up and turn-down collars with a black tie used with tuxedos. The less formal nature of the tuxedo seems to have allowed for a less formal collar style. -Bob Skiba ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 19 Dec 1996 08:26:18 -0800 From: Conrad Hodson Subject: Re: Verbosity Too brief, or not too brief. Is that the question? Peace, Christine (the Cyborg) "Grandma got run over by a raindeer......" ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 19 Dec 1996 08:48:52 PST From: Gia Gavino-Gattshall Subject: Re: verbosity How about a fighting chance...boxer shorts... Gia > Too brief, or not too brief. Is that the question? > > Peace, > > Christine (the Cyborg) > > "Grandma got run over by a raindeer......" > --IAA05974.851013883/mailhost2.cac.washington.edu-- ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 19 Dec 1996 11:25:12 CDT From: Cindy Abel Subject: Re: costume book I have just ordered Jean Hunnisett's "Period Costume for Stage and Screen, Medieval-1500" Library Journal gave it a favorable review and after becoming familiar with her other two books in the series, I hope it will be very helpful in costuming dolls (and myself for RenFaire). It is $50 less my gift certificate -- but I thought there might be an interest in this book for maker's of female costume for the time era covered. Cindy Abel Health Sciences Library Creighton University 2500 California Plaza Omaha NE 68178-0400 Phone: 402-280-5144 Technology is wonderful only when it works correctly ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 19 Dec 1996 11:58:40 -0600 From: Tim Allison Subject: Roman clothing I seem to remember someone looking for help with Roman clothing. Unfortunately, I've deleted that message, so I can't answer privately. Fortunately, I have not deleted one from October on the same subject, so I ask your indulgence while I repost it in the hope of helping this individual. Date: Tue, 8 Oct 1996 I can't locate my copies right now, but there are several excellent works by textile archaeologists regarding the clothing of the Romans. I last did a toga and tunica for my Latin Club in high school, but we did extensive research. First you'll need fine-woven white wool (remember, Rome is on the same latitude as Washington DC, it gets cold there!). The tunica is the undergarment worn under the toga. It's basically a tabard, made of two rectangles of wool. The seams are not sewn, rather the edges are ravelled out (6" or so) and the loose threads are roped (or cabled/twisted, however you want to describe it) to hold them together. This cabling continues as edge trim around the arm openings and then down the sides of the garment. There is some documentation for tunicas in a variety of colors and perhaps also appearing in silk or other fabrics, but the classic tunica was made of wool. The toga is a very simple garment indeed. It's a semi-circle of wool, 15 ft across. The Romans took the toga and wet it, then a specially trained slave would patiently make the thousands of tiny folds necessary for proper draping. I suspect that once the toga dried in the right folds, it was probably kept on a stand or form of some type to minimize the time necessary for re-pleating later. The archaeological evidence shows that the toga was actually woven as a semicircle, not cut and hemmed. This is impractical for most modern costumers. I have found that you can use other types of fabric, but it has to be fairly heavy in order to drape properly and stay in place. Bed sheets just won't do it. We used photos of several Roman statues showing the toga from various angles in order to properly get it draped and pleated. This takes some experimentation. Once it is right, the toga will stay on without pinning or sewing. Men of Senatorial class wore a puple stripe at the hem of their togas. Late in the Empire other ornament may have been possible. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 19 Dec 1996 10:02:48 -0800 From: Frances Grimble Subject: Re: Verbosity > My hubby relates to me that there has been consternation on the part of > some members over the unmitigated use of verbiage on this list. As one > of the worst offenders, if I may take up your time with a few comments > and observations: > > 1. It is true that "proper etiquette" for e-mail requires brevity in > all things. Some of us are just rude and/or ignorant, but most of us > are just plain talky. Well, I was a technical writer in Silicon Valley in the days when e-mail and b-boards were more common in the technical community than the general public. I've been using these means of communication ever since. I have never heard that "proper etiquette" for e-mail demands that it be brief. In my opinion as a professional writer, e-mail, like any other type of communication, should be as long as required to say what you have to say. Which varies a lot. Writers and readers have individual tastes as to whether they like things long or short. But I don't think these preferences should be imposed on everyone in the guise of "etiquette." It is difficult, also, for the > people who only get the digest version, I understand, because often they > only receive part of a long post and miss some of the good stuff. There's always the option of switching to the "receive individual messages" option. > 2. It is also true that some of us get carried away with our posts to > the list. In the interest in keeping our neighbors mailboxes > uncluttered, please consider sending posts to the people most interested > in hearing from you. The shotgun approach is inefficient and uncaring. The "shotgun approach" is what e-mail lists and b-boards are all about. Messages to them are supposed to be public. Even in a focused list--such as one on costume--discussions on some very specialized topics appropriate to the list--such as children's costume--will not interest some members. Delete them. It is true that "correct etiquette" says _private_ communications to _one person_ should not be sent to the whole list. Such as "Want to meet me for lunch at noon?" or "Can't say it in public but I think this person is a jerk." It is also considered bad etiquette to spam totally unrelated lists with messages on investment opportunities, religion, politics, etc. > 3. Please refrain from giving out others names, addresses, e-mail > addresses, and phone numbers on this list unless you have specifically > asked the party if they mind receiving requests for information or free > advice from all over the world. As the recipient of more phone calls > than I can possibly return some days, I quake for their sanity, I really > do. I'm very glad for information that tells me where to buy hard-to-find costuming supplies, even if I didn't ask for it personally. I've also had many people thank me for my posts in such topics--both the buyers of costuming items and the sellers of them. If you personally get too many calls, buy an answering machine. And prerecord some standard information on getting your catalog, etc. for people who have a touch-tone phone. > > 4. I wonder if we have scared people off this list who in the past > provided so much refreshing insight, thought-provoking questions, and > intriguing observation by our somewhat strident tone lately. I miss > voices like Ysabeau s, for instance, among others. Does anyone know if > she is still out there? There are plenty of insightful people posting useful information and thought-provoking questions on the h-costume list. If the topics currently discussed don't interest you, post a message to start a discussion on topics that do. H-costume etiquette is in general excellent. If you don't think so, for comparison I can give you the names of some Internet b-boards infested with genuine cranks, crackpots, and flamers. I strongly disagree with anyone's attempts to banish all messages that don't interest _them_, and getting people to conform to their personal ideas, under the guise of "generally accepted etiquette." Fran Grimble ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 19 Dec 1996 13:43:45 -0500 From: "Nancy L. Saputo" Subject: 1815 Fashion Plates I recently purchased four framed 1815 fashion plates. I am trying to ascertain their source. Printed at the bottom of each plate are the words: "Published by I.W.H.Payne" Barely discernible (on the other side of the page) are the words "......OF FASHION." Nancy Saputo ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 19 Dec 1996 14:00:24 -0500 From: "Nancy L. Saputo" Subject: 18th & 19th C. Reticules/Purses Am researching 18th & 19th c. reticules/purses. Bags and Purses by Vanda Foster is out of print (per Amazon Drygoods). Are there any other books dealing with this topic exclusively? Nancy Saputo ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 19 Dec 1996 18:05:10 -0500 From: Ed Safford & Carol Kocian Subject: Re: HALF-SIZES IN SHOES Nancy wrote, >"SHOEPEDIA" (printed in 1946 by the Footwear Industries of America) states >that in 1880 half-sizes in shoes were introduced. > >I recently purchased a pair of lady's half-boots, mauve cotton, side-lacing, >no heel, which I know are pre-1880. The size "4-1/2" is handwritten in ink >inside. Perhaps the shoes are English or French in origin? Does anyone know >when half-sizes were introduced in England or France? Since the size is hand written in ink, I wonder if it may have been added later? An antique clothing dealer may have written that size well after the shoes were manufactured. Does 4-1/2 correspond to today's sizing? -Carol *^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^* This account is shared by Carol Kocian and Ed Safford. Carol can also be e-mailed at ckocian@epe.org Ed is also at esafford@sun1.wwb.noaa.gov . ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 19 Dec 1996 18:45:44 -0400 From: Rich Williamson Subject: job posting in Philly area feel free to pass this on to others... thanks Local Costumer with an large national presence is looking to fill an immediate opening. This is a "fun" position with very few rigid rules and guidelines, so self-starters are desired. We are looking for creative, intelligent people with good verbal skills. The ideal candidate would have experience in the following fields: Theatrical productions, sewing, clothing construction, retail sales, business management, retail display, verbal and written communication, managing others, and basic scheduling. One doesn't have to have experience in all these fields but, it helps. The position is never boring. The work changes every day. Some days you will be pulling together a group of costumes for a professional theatrical production, the next you will be talking about make-up to a film director. Later you might be designing and working on an NFL team mascot, then creating costumes for a convention. Depending on experience one might: sketch & design outfits, buy fabric & forecast costs, construct outfits, work with retail customers, organize costumes and accessories for large events, work on retail displays, meet with directors to discuss productions, help customers with theatrical make-up & wigs, alter costumes for costume rentals, and much more. We are looking for a full-time employee that has aspirations toward moving on to managing, and running large projects. We are also looking for part-time and full-time help in an all-around capacity. we are also now hiring temporary positions for our September, October, November (Halloween & Thanksgiving) "rush" season. We are also looking for people with the skills to create patterns from sketches. These employees need to be able to assemble, drape, and create outfits. We are needing practical seamstresses. These positions can be full-time, part-time, and piece work. Pierre's is a combination of three different costumers, the oldest being since 1876. We continue to maintain two separate retail locations in the Philadelphia suburbs. Pierre is one of the world's foremost Costumers with over 40,000 different costumes to chose from, making it by far the largest costume shop in area, and one of the largest in the country. Pierre's has maintained a complete full service professional costume house, designing and manufacturing on the premises, this allows the public and theatrical organizations the opportunity of renting from a wide range of top quality in-house manufactured costume or original historic garments. Pierre's continues to design and manufacture mascots for schools, parades, costumes for Television Personalities, Movies, Musicians, Performers, and many others. If you are interested and want to learn more about the position, please call Rich Williamson at 609-486-1188 to discuss setting up an interview. Rich Williamson Pierre's Costumes 7882 Browning Road Pennsauken, NJ 08109 (formerly Miller Costume -1876 & Pierre of Philadelphia -1943) 609-486-1188 Phone 609-486-4402 Fax NOTE: 9-27-96 new address: costumes@mindspring.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 19 Dec 1996 21:04:45 -0500 From: Kirk Albrecht M311 Subject: Re: Verbosity In a message dated 96-12-19 14:28:31 EST, lavolta@BEST.COM (Frances Grimble) writes: << > My hubby relates to me that there has been consternation on the part of > some members over the unmitigated use of verbiage on this list. As one > of the worst offenders, if I may take up your time with a few comments > and observations: > > 1. It is true that "proper etiquette" for e-mail requires brevity in > all things. Some of us are just rude and/or ignorant, but most of us > are just plain talky. Well, I was a technical writer in Silicon Valley in the days when e-mail and b-boards were more common in the technical community than the general public. I've been using these means of communication ever since. I have never heard that "proper etiquette" for e-mail demands that it be brief. In my opinion as a professional writer, e-mail, like any other type of communication, should be as long as required to say what you have to say. Which varies a lot. Writers and readers have individual tastes as to whether they like things long or short. But I don't think these preferences should be imposed on everyone in the guise of "etiquette." >> I second Fran. Bye the way, Fran I saw your book at Barnes and Noble oneday. It looked very good. I will have to add it to my wish list. Kelly Albrecht m311@aol.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 19 Dec 1996 19:34:17 -0800 From: "R.L. Shep" Subject: Re: Verbosity I am sure we all see things we don't want to be bothered with on the list. My pet peeve centers around people (be they men or women) who go on about how big their equipment is and the fact that they couldn't possibly fit it into the garment of the moment. delete is a perfectly good choice. ~!~ R.L. Shep ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 19 Dec 1996 23:35:31 EST From: bglickman@ECKERT.ACADCOMP.MONROECC.EDU Subject: BRIEF! Subj: Re: verbosity > Too brief, or not too brief. Is that the question? > Peace > Christine (the Cyborg) and >How about a fighting chance...boxer shorts... Gia Now it's MY turn: I'll VERB-alize it: "To BRIEF, or not to BRIEF...." HH's (Happy Holidays!) Bonnie G. -------------------------------------------------|=|=|=|=|=|=|=|=|=|=|=|=|= Bonnie Glickman =|=|= "I'm NOT waiting Bio. Dept.; Monroe Comm. Coll. |=|=| until I'm old... Rochester, NY 14623 (716) 292-2725 =|=|= I'm wearing my email: bglickman@eckert.acadcomp.monroecc.edu |=|=| Purple NOW!!" -bg or GLICKMAN@mccvm.is.monroecc.edu =|=|=|=|=|=|=|=|=|=|=|=|=| ------------------------------ End of H-COSTUME Digest - 18 Dec 1996 to 19 Dec 1996 **************************************************** From ???@??? Mon Dec 23 14:12:15 1996 Received: from brownvm.brown.edu by mail.math.TU-Berlin.DE with SMTP id AA19555 (5.67b8/IDA-1.5 for ); Sat, 21 Dec 1996 06:02:50 +0100 Message-Id: <199612210502.AA19555@mail.math.TU-Berlin.DE> Received: from BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU by BROWNVM.brown.edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with BSMTP id 6563; Sat, 21 Dec 96 00:01:37 EST Received: from BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU (NJE origin LISTSERV@BROWNVM) by BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 1390; Sat, 21 Dec 1996 00:01:36 -0500 Date: Sat, 21 Dec 1996 00:01:31 -0500 Reply-To: Historic Costume List Sender: Historic Costume List From: Automatic digest processor Subject: H-COSTUME Digest - 19 Dec 1996 to 20 Dec 1996 To: Recipients of H-COSTUME digests Status: O There are 23 messages totalling 519 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. cotehardie patterns---??? (2) 2. H-COSTUME Digest - 18 Dec 1996 to 19 Dec 1996 3. Heirloom Buttons to Make 4. Silhouette forms (2) 5. Atlanta? (2) 6. Looking for two SCA Laurels 7. Pet Peeves on this list (was: verbosity) 8. NORWICH SHAWLS (2) 9. SHARING OF KNOWLEDGE (4) 10. Mystery Accessory 11. unsubscribe 12. Early irish clothing. 13. Archives 14. PLEASE TAKE MY NAME OFF THE MAILING LIST!!!!!!!!! 15. Cross Stitch History 16. Fw: Where are they? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 20 Dec 1996 03:20:39 -0500 From: No Name Subject: cotehardie patterns---??? Does anybody know how I might get a really good pattern for a cotehardie? I found one for a Spanish surcoat, now I'm trying to get my act together for a suitable undergarment. Any suggestions? Thanks! ---Patricia, list newbie ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 20 Dec 1996 09:28:54 -0500 From: Heather Leigh Harrison Subject: Re: H-COSTUME Digest - 18 Dec 1996 to 19 Dec 1996 To try to track down "Bags and Purses" by Vanda Foster (ISBN#0713437723), write to the publishers at: B.T. Batsford Ltd. 4 Fitzhardinge Street London W1H0AH It's a good one - hope you can get a copy right from the source! ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 20 Dec 1996 09:40:44 -0500 From: Dale Loberger Subject: Heirloom Buttons to Make For those of you who are looking for interesting and beautiful closures for your antique and reproduction garments, there is a new book available at the Unicorn (1-800-289-9276) in Petaluma, CA, published by Taunton Press, called _50 Heirloom Buttons to Make_, by Nancy Nehring. Several types of Dorset thread buttons, as well as crocheted, needle-lace, fabric, braid, ribbon and tape closures are included. Some are difficult, many are quite simple, all are described in easy-to-follow instructions, many with historical notes. I am thrilled with my copy and highly recommend it. I have no affiliation whatsoever with the author, publisher, or bookseller, am just a very satisfied customer. Susannah Eanes ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 20 Dec 1996 10:12:00 -0500 From: "NELSON, Carolyn A." Subject: Silhouette forms Forgive me if this appears twice. I tried to send it two days ago, but I never saw it show up in the digest, so I'm trying again. I have heard of a kit one can buy for making a custom form by wrapping the body with dampened strips of, uh, fiberglass? The strips harden within a few minutes, and can be cut up the front, back or side for easy removal from the body, leaving a near perfect form of the subject. I think it is the same prinicipal they now use for fiberglass casts (my 9 year old broke his arm last year). Does anyone on the list have any experience with one of these kits, and/or know how to order them? Thanks, Carolyn ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 20 Dec 1996 11:57:44 -0500 From: RMITCHELL@WASHJEFF.EDU Subject: Atlanta? Nothing like waiting until the last minute, but - Kathleen (of the needle in the foot) is going to be in Atlanta right after Christmas, hoping to look at costumes and/or textiles. Do any of you good people know of things she shouldn't miss, or might want to see, in the way of museums or shops - that can be gotten to from downtown without a car - ? And the kicker is that after late this evening (Friday), we won't have access to the list until after New Year. Probably off-list replies would be in order. Thanks, and a happy Season to all Lloyd (for Kathleen) Mitchell rmitchell@washjeff.edu ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 20 Dec 1996 11:24:00 -0600 From: Kathy Whisler Subject: Looking for two SCA Laurels Does anyone know how I might get in touch with Kim Brody Salazar (Mistress Ianthe d'Averoigne) and/or Kathryn Newell (Mistress Kathryn Goodwin)? I am trying to help someone with embroidery documentation, and am in need of their advice. Please reply privately to kwhisler@rpslmc.edu. Thank you very much. --Kathy Whisler ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 20 Oct 1996 10:10:07 -0700 From: Margo Anderson Subject: Pet Peeves on this list (was: verbosity) While we're at it, my pet peeve is people who post questions such as "I nedd to know all about X type of lace/fabric/pattern etc for a class, I think it might be spelled so-and-so, please tell me the country of origin, date of invention, and anything else you can think of." or, "I'm designing a show set in England in 1918, please tell me anything you can about the period." While I adore answering interesting questions, shouldn't their research start with a trip to the library? (Even the librarians I know are annoyed by questions as basic or broad as these). While this list is certainly a fabulous resource, I don't see why we should be expected to do these people's homework for them. As for the person who requested brevity, I don't agree at all. I love reading these messages, and would hate to see them become terse little bits of information rather than messages reflecting the individuals. Besides, anyone who's seen my costuming knows that I firmly believe that More is More. Margo Anderson "One Tough Costumer" ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 20 Dec 1996 10:54:46 PST From: Loren Dearborn Subject: Atlanta? Nothing like waiting until the last minute, but - Kathleen (of the needle in the foot) is going to be in Atlanta right after Christmas, hoping to look at costumes and/or textiles. Do any of you good people know of things she shouldn't miss, or might want to see, in the way of museums or shops - that can be gotten to from downtown without a car - ? I too am going to Atlanta for the holidays. I did some perliminary guide-book checks and didn't come up with much. There is some museum downtown (I'll check the name and get back to you) with Gone with the Wind stuff that is supposed to have costumes from the movie, but that's about all I've heard of. I would be interested to hear about any other costume stuff in Atlanta. Please post to the list or send me a copy. Thanks! Loren Dearborn ldearborn@calacademy.org ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 20 Dec 1996 11:05:24 -0800 From: "Carol E. Newby" Subject: Re: Silhouette forms There is a company called Pure Whimsy with an on-line catalog. They have a book called _Make Your Own Body Form Instruction Booklet_ and they say that this method is used by costumers and the form will cost less than $30 and will be done is under 3 hours. The booklet is $12.00. I haven't ordered it yet 'cause we're in the process of buying a house, but as soon as we are moved in I'm getting it and can then "review" it for anyone that's interested. The catalog page is on the web at: http://www.purewhimsy.com/p0000075.htm Carol (usual disclaimers apply, don't know 'em, don't work for 'em, etc.) ~~~*~~~*~~~*~~~*~~~*~~~*~~~*~~~*~~~*~~~*~~~*~~~*~~~*~~~*~~~*~~~ Carol E. Newby Elspeth the Semstress of Dunkeld ladybug@falkor.neei.com http://www.neei.com/~ladybug "Unless you try to do something beyond what you have already mastered, you will never grow." ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 20 Dec 1996 14:07:20 -0500 From: "Nancy L. Saputo" Subject: NORWICH SHAWLS NORWICH SHAWLS (England c. 1830) -- Seeking historical background on Norwich, England, relating to production of silk shawls and/or fabric, together with knowledge of such shawls c. 1830. Nancy Saputo ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 20 Dec 1996 14:35:18 -0500 From: "Nancy L. Saputo" Subject: SHARING OF KNOWLEDGE In response to Margo Anderson's recent posting: This being my third day as a subscriber, I am finding many generous and knowledgeable people who are more than willing to assist me with my various inquiries. My local library could never provide me with the wealth of knowledge available at this site. Those who care to respond, do. If certain postings offend you, please, just delete them. Nancy Saputo ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 20 Dec 1996 12:53:51 -0700 From: Robin Hill Subject: Mystery Accessory Here is a question I've had for years: The painting called "The Long Engagement," by Arthur Hughes, shows two young people enjoying a moment of emotional suffering in a forest. She is wearing a short purple velvet cape over her dress, and there is a bundle of lavender velvet showing between his trousers and her skirt. What in the world is it? A bonnet on a stick? A cloak for the spaniel? A part of her dress that I don't understand? A matching ghost? A sporran run wild? Hughes was a Pre-Raphaelite, or at least a Pre-Raph wannabe--right?--so this is British, mid-to-late 19th-century. --- Robin Hill hill@uwyo.edu (307)766-5289 Department of Computer Science, University of Wyoming ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 20 Dec 1996 20:13:28 GMT From: "Reflections of the Past, Antiques" Subject: Re: NORWICH SHAWLS At 02:07 PM 12/20/96 -0500, you wrote: >NORWICH SHAWLS (England c. 1830) -- Seeking historical background on Norwich, >England, relating to production of silk shawls and/or fabric, together with >knowledge of such shawls c. 1830. > >Nancy Saputo =========== A good book to read is "Shawls, Stoles and Scarves" by Alice Mackrell from the Batsford Costume Accessories Series. ISBN 0 7134 4876 8. You can also read an article on the VICTORIANA site called "BEYOND THE FRINGE- Shawls of Paisley Design" which mentions Norwich. http://www.victoriana.com/library/paisley/shawl.html ***************************************************** Joanne Haug "Victoriana-Resources for Victorian Living" http://www.victoriana.com and "Reflections of the Past, Antique Costume & Textiles" http://www.victoriana.com/antiques registry@victoriana.com Voice/Fax(216)835-6924 ***************************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 20 Dec 1996 14:56:18 -0600 From: PHYLLIS SPURR Subject: unsubscribe Please remove me from this list. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 20 Dec 1996 15:19:34 -0500 From: Northshield Folk Subject: Early irish clothing. Hi, I am looking for anyone with some knowlege of Early Irish clothing ( 800-1000ad) I have done quite a bit of study and wish to compare notes and sources. Nancy Laughlin-Foust Owner - Gothica Studios Costume Director Augustana College AKA: Sheriff Morganna McGlachlen in the SCA shadewescompany@on-ramp.com Glory,Magesty,Unity Warriors of the Northshield and the Known World ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 20 Dec 1996 17:15:03 -0500 From: Kathleen Songal Subject: Archives Please give me the address where the h-costume archives after the date March 1996 can be found. Thankyou, thankyou, Kathy Songal asongal@wincom.net ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 20 Dec 1996 15:04:36 -0700 From: ANARCHY Subject: Re: SHARING OF KNOWLEDGE Nancy L. Saputo wrote: > > In response to Margo Anderson's recent posting: > > This being my third day as a subscriber, I am finding many generous and > knowledgeable people who are more than willing to assist me with my various > inquiries. My local library could never provide me with the wealth of > knowledge available at this site. Those who care to respond, do. If certain > postings offend you, please, just delete them. > > Nancy Saputo PLEASE TAKE MY NAME OFF THE MAILING LIST!!!! Thank you, Kelli ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 20 Dec 1996 15:05:46 -0700 From: ANARCHY Subject: PLEASE TAKE MY NAME OFF THE MAILING LIST!!!!!!!!! Please take my name off the mailing list, thank you, Kelli ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 20 Dec 1996 17:39:41 -0500 From: KPerk22954@AOL.COM Subject: Cross Stitch History I am in the midst of a research project that is giving me some trouble. I am hoping someone might be able to give me source suggestions. Here is the question I am trying to answer: What is the history of Pre-Colonial cross stitch techniques? Specifically, where does it first appear ? What articles was it used on? Functional or decorative? What is the route of appearance of the stitch if there is one? What social classes used it in which countries during which time periods? I know, what a question! Most of the information I have found dates back to Colonial times and no further. The only exception is a book on the embroidries of Mary, Queen of Scotts. Any ideas would be welcome and any leads to documentation would be greatly appreciated. Thank you! Kristie ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 20 Dec 1996 18:43:51 -0500 From: Mazelle@AOL.COM Subject: Re: cotehardie patterns---??? --PART.BOUNDARY.0.602.emout12.mail.aol.com.851125106 Content-ID: <0_602_851125106@emout12.mail.aol.com.17455> Content-type: text/plain In a message dated 96-12-20 04:15:52 EST, you write: > o: H-COSTUME@BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU (Multiple recipients of list H-COSTUME) > > Does anybody know how I might get a really good pattern for a cotehardie? I > found one for a Spanish surcoat, now I'm trying to get my act together for a > suitable undergarment. Any suggestions? Thanks! ---Patricia, list newbie Jean Hunnisett has a new book out called Period Costume for the Stage and Screen Medieval to 1500. It is a wonderful book and the patterns are pretty close to being authentic with a few minor adjustments on some. The book is $50.00 but well worth the money. My question is , what time period are you trying to do? Spanish surcoats were worn in the 1500's but cotehardies are from an earlier time period. Unless you are referring to a sideless surcote, then a cotehardie would be correct. Mazelle --PART.BOUNDARY.0.602.emout12.mail.aol.com.851125106 Content-ID: <0_602_851125106@emout12.mail.aol.com.17456> Content-type: text/plain; name="COTE.DOC" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Jean Hunnisett has a new book out called Period Costume for the Stage and= Screen Medieval to 1500. It is a wonderful book and the patterns are pre= tty close to being authentic with a few minor adjustments on some. The bo= ok is $50.00 but well worth the money. My question is , what time period = are you trying to do? Spanish surcoats were worn in the 1500's but coteha= rdies are from an earlier time period. Unless you are referring to a side= less surcote, then a cotehardie would be correct. --PART.BOUNDARY.0.602.emout12.mail.aol.com.851125106-- ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 20 Dec 1996 20:07:50 -0600 From: ches Subject: Fw: Where are they? Please reply to young lady in question please. Ciao Ches ---------- : From: Kathleen Songal : To: ches@io.com : Subject: Where are they? : Date: Thursday, December 19, 1996 8:19 PM : : Please give me the address where the h-costume archives are housed. : : Thank you, thank you, : : Kathy Songal : asongal@wincom.net ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 20 Oct 1996 18:44:53 -0700 From: Margo Anderson Subject: Re: SHARING OF KNOWLEDGE At 02:35 PM 12/20/96 -0500, you wrote: My local library could never provide me with the wealth of >knowledge available at this site. Those who care to respond, do. If certain >postings offend you, please, just delete them. > >Nancy Saputo > >Perhaps I didn't make myself clear. I certainly didn't mean people shouldn't ask questions - if that was the case, what on earth would this list be for? I was just trying to make the point that it would be a courtesy to the list members to do your groundwork before asking such general questions. I'm all too aware of the limitations of local libraries, but most of them have a few costume reference books which can give you an overview of a period, and all of them have encyclopedias which will answer a surprising number of costume questions. Furthermore, I firmly believe that basic library skills are essential to becoming a good historical costumer, or, for that matter, a reasonably educated person. Please forgive me if the tone of my original post was somewhat strident - the fact is that the baby in my lap managed to click "send" before I had gone over my message! (ten months old and he's better with a computer than I am). Margo Anderson ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 20 Dec 1996 19:54:52 -0800 From: "R.L. Shep" Subject: Re: SHARING OF KNOWLEDGE Margo Anderson wrote: > > At 02:35 PM 12/20/96 -0500, you wrote: > My local library could never provide me with the wealth of > >knowledge available at this site. Those who care to respond, do. If certain > >postings offend you, please, just delete them. > > > >Nancy Saputo > > > >Perhaps I didn't make myself clear. I certainly didn't mean people > shouldn't ask questions - if that was the case, what on earth would this > list be for? I was just trying to make the point that it would be a > courtesy to the list members to do your groundwork before asking such > general questions. > > I'm all too aware of the limitations of local libraries, but most of them > have a few costume reference books which can give you an overview of a > period, and all of them have encyclopedias which will answer a surprising > number of costume questions. Furthermore, I firmly believe that basic > library skills are essential to becoming a good historical costumer, or, for > that matter, a reasonably educated person. > > Please forgive me if the tone of my original post was somewhat strident - > the fact is that the baby in my lap > managed to click "send" before I had gone over my message! (ten months old > and he's better with a computer than I am). > > Margo Anderson There is no substitute for good research! And I find that many people do not want to do it.... they don't want to take the time. There is no one book that will give anyone all the answers. Asking questions of people on the net/list means that you buy into their knowledge or lack thereof. If you take what they tell you for gospel you have made a BIG mistake. I too treasure the answers I get from people - but I try to do my own research along with it so that I don't have accept something as being true just because someone told it to me. ~!~ R.L. Shep ------------------------------ End of H-COSTUME Digest - 19 Dec 1996 to 20 Dec 1996 **************************************************** From ???@??? Mon Dec 23 14:12:17 1996 Received: from brownvm.brown.edu by mail.math.TU-Berlin.DE with SMTP id AA22252 (5.67b8/IDA-1.5 for ); Sun, 22 Dec 1996 06:02:32 +0100 Message-Id: <199612220502.AA22252@mail.math.TU-Berlin.DE> Received: from BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU by BROWNVM.brown.edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with BSMTP id 7796; Sun, 22 Dec 96 00:01:14 EST Received: from BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU (NJE origin LISTSERV@BROWNVM) by BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 3718; Sun, 22 Dec 1996 00:01:13 -0500 Date: Sun, 22 Dec 1996 00:01:11 -0500 Reply-To: Historic Costume List Sender: Historic Costume List From: Automatic digest processor Subject: H-COSTUME Digest - 20 Dec 1996 to 21 Dec 1996 To: Recipients of H-COSTUME digests Status: O There are 23 messages totalling 647 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. Verbosity 2. C. 1800 MUSLIN DRESS DISPLAY 3. inane posts that don't really ask anything (6) 4. Landeskenecht References (2) 5. Mongolian Costume Reference 6. Generalized Questions 7. unsubscribing from h-costume 8. Archives 9. Gripe posts 10. Life stories - delurking 11. COSTUMING-STRIVING FOR AUTHENTICITY 12. costuming--striving for authenticity (4) 13. Khazar costuming 14. COSTUMING IN FILM ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 21 Dec 1996 01:30:59 -0700 From: Julie Adams Subject: Re: Verbosity I was sort of surprised this even came up on this list. Just recently I was discussing with other h-costume friends off-line about how quiet things have been lately. If I was not inundated by two other lists (one of which I co-administrate), I would be itching for more:-) One of the things I have always liked about this list is the wealth of information exchanged. The contributors have been really conscientious about providing substantive advice, documentation and research in their answers. I do so hope it will continue! Julie Adams ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 21 Dec 1996 08:05:18 -0500 From: "Nancy L. Saputo" Subject: C. 1800 MUSLIN DRESS DISPLAY I would like to ascertain the accurate representation of a c. 1800 (English or European) trained white muslin dress (for display in a private museum). The dress has an apron front with long tape ends to tie around the waist (see Nancy Bradfield Costume in Detail p. 90). There is a deep border of white embroidery round the hem, and running up the entire center panel. However, there is no bodice per se. The garment could have been unpicked, as I detect two different qualities of white thread. The "bodice" is joined to the back panel--its construction is similar to p. 90 (and also, p. 48 of Janet Arnold's 1660-1860 Patterns of Fashion), minus the sleeves. Also, the tapes (not flaps) that would join under the breasts are only 5/8" wide. The center back piece is attached to 1-1/8" of netting (at the neckline), then bound with muslin (as if being finished with bias tape). My question is: What would have been worn over this dress? Are there any similar sleeveless extant garments in someone's collection? Janet Arnold (p. 44) shows a white muslin round gown with a half-robe. However, as my piece has delightful embroidery running up the entire front panel, I would imagine it would have been displayed in its entirety. Norah Waugh's The Cut of Women's Clothes, Plate. 42c., shows a transparent open robe; however my bodice does not strike me as being something the wearer would want to be visible. A tunic would also cover the front-panel embroidery. This leads me to wonder whether a spencer or cloak would have been paired with this garment. I am a private collector of 3-1/2 years, with no formal training (but much passion and enthusiasm). My personal library consists of over 150 books. Since my collection includes costume and accessories spanning a 170-year period, it is a dauntless task, indeed, to become a learned individual of each fashion period. It is important to me to display my pieces accurately. Therefore, any assistance someone can offer would be greatly appreciated. Nancy Saputo ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 21 Dec 1996 11:21:08 -0400 From: Rich Williamson Subject: inane posts that don't really ask anything I too am tired of posts such as "tell me everything you know obout make-up in 16th centuary bulgarian women in the catholic faith" or "I am doing a production of xyz show and wouyld like to know what I should do" get real.... most of us that can help you out don't have the time to write you a term paper! I (like most folks that are advanced in their fields) enjoy sharing and teaching. IF the question is specific enough. If someone asks me "I am having trouble finding apicture of the ballgown worn by XYZ character in XYZ style... could anyone refer me?" I will typically help them. If someone says "I am having trouble finding a blood product that will easily remove from a wool civil war costume. We are using it outdoors and need the blood to run down the face into the coat. it will be swallowed therefore we nee it to be non-toxic. I am also concerned about the fact that it may be over 8 hours before we can wash the coats. Can anyone help me?" I would be VERY happy to hel pthis person... they have obviously though things through.. and are solely looking for a specific product or item that meets these needs. I can't count how many times I have responded to VAGUE posts with "please provide me with more details and I would be very happy to provide you with a solution" and the poster never had the courtesy to respond. If you make it easy for the respondants to reply to your question (without having 15 back- and- forth E-mails) you will get more response. Noboby (well most people) that are in the know are typicaly busy people. unfortunatly the person who has the time to gu=ive you a 10 page term-paper response to your question may not be doing much else. I would often wonder A. why they wrote such a comprehensive response. B. If they really knew what they were talking aobout with so much time on their hands. and C. if they were actualy college students (no flames... I was one once also... a long time ago...) who are repeating the lecture that they just heard in calss last week. Bottom line: Educated well thought out questions get educated well thought out responses. Rich Rich Williamson Pierre's Costumes 7882 Browning Road Pennsauken, NJ 08109 (formerly Miller Costume -1876 & Pierre of Philadelphia -1943) 609-486-1188 Phone 609-486-4402 Fax NOTE: 9-27-96 new address: costumes@mindspring.com ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 21 Dec 1996 12:02:27 -0500 From: Gileshill@AOL.COM Subject: Landeskenecht References Can anyone recommend reference materials for Landeskenecht clothing? (I've already got the Osprey 'fighting men' booklet.) TIA! Giles ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 21 Dec 1996 11:49:30 -0600 From: Someone You Trust Subject: Re: inane posts that don't really ask anything I feel that, on behalf of all the neophyte costumers in existance, I must offer Rich our deepest, most profound apologies for wasting his time by attempting to get started with our interest. After reading his message I was immediately struck by the fact that it is _our_ fault for not being born with such an immense body of knowledge that Lord Williamson must possess innately. We must beg further forgiveness for not even being in the costume-industry and yet having the audacity to read this elite mailing list that, but for our innane questioning, would be discussing the higher mysteries of the costuming art. Again, with my most humble and self-debasing apologies I bid you good day, my most kind and forgiving Lord Williamson. [sarcasm mode off] Right, that's enough of that. Rich, when we ask such things as "Can anyone tell me about '16th century bulgarian women in the catholic faith'" most do not expect a 20-page thesis on it, just a few pointers...maybe some books to look at and if needed what errors were made in those books. If this is still too base for your obviously advanced intellect [whoops, sorry, some sarcasm was still left, I guess] then simply ignore the message, or better yet, unsubscribe to the mailing list. Speaking as a newbie-costumer, I know there's a lot I don't know, and when I saw this mailing list I assumed that it would be a good place to fill some of the gaps in my knowledge. From what I have seen from everyone else here, in the year I've been on the list, most people are quite willing to lend a hand or just a quick pointer. Thanks for listening to my rant, I'll even try to make this topical now ;> Does anyone out there have much experience with Mongolian costumes? If so, what were some of the more common colors...I know about red and blue, but those are the only two 'popular' ones I've been able to find. Were there any more? Thank you for your time, Dan Maloy Full-time student and non-owner of anything related to costuming except some fabric, needles, and thread. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 21 Dec 1996 10:40:36 -0700 From: Julie Adams Subject: Re: Landeskenecht References Gee, Giles, I dunno..... Dover Publishing Co. Books - The Complete Woodcuts of Albrecht Durer The Complete Engravings and Etchings of Albrecht Durer The Book of Trades - Jost Amman Decorative Renaissance Woodcuts - Jost Amman Vicellio's Renaissance Costume Book - Vicellio Costumes Through the Ages, by Braun and Schneider The History of Costume, by K. Kohler (This book has some construction information.) Other Books - The World of Durer, by Time Life Books Hans Holbein, by Phaidon The Landsknechtes, by D. Miller and G. Embleton, Osprey Men-at-Arms Series Lucas Cranach, by Friedlander and Rosenberg Bruegel, by G. Martin Peasants, Warriors, and Wives, by Kieth Moxey Artists and Warfare in the Rennaissance, by J.R. Hale Patterns of Fashion, 1560 to 1620, by J. Arnold (This book has some good patterns and photographs of period costumes and details.) Out of Print (Library Books) - The German Renaissance Woodcut Series The Triumph of Maximillian, woodcuts by Hans Burgkmair and others (by Dover) If you have any specific questions, just let me know... Julie Adams ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 21 Dec 1996 10:43:18 -0700 From: Julie Adams Subject: Mongolian Costume Reference Have you looked in the book "Mongolian Costume"? I think its by Henny Harald Hansen, but I loaned my copy out. Darn I hate it when I do that...Hopefully someone who has it will provide more details. But its the best Mongolian Costume book I've seen and I believe still available and in print. Julie Adams ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 21 Dec 1996 14:11:26 EST From: Annette M Allen Subject: Generalized Questions Okay, I guess I will come out of "lurker" mode. I found this mail list because of the answer to a question I had posted on a newsgroup. I have been lurking for about three months. Because I have a *very* limited area of interest and knowledge in this field, any questions I ask would be definition be extremely general. At this point, I am merely trying to find out what I would like to learn. Both sides of this issue have valid points. Since language is another field about which I am interested, I have observed (as well as read - documentation available upon request) that much of our actual communication relies on what is commonly called body language, as well as tone of voice and factors other than the written word. The point being - many of the things we write are interpreted by the receivers in a different way than we may have actually meant them. With that said, may we please put our "polite hats" back on and continue discussing costuming? -Annette Who goes to RenFaire (SoCal) in a costume that is changing and getting more authentic every year... ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 21 Dec 1996 14:16:17 -0500 From: J&B Subject: Re: inane posts that don't really ask anything OK, let's put this in perspective - I get postings from several newsgroups and all of them seem to contain a fair number of basic questions from neophytes. To some, it seems as if they want others to do their legwork for them. Even though I feel that people should only post to the group when they have exhausted all their available resources, I find that many researchers are extremely generous with their knowledge, and take the time te explain and re-explain basic points. I am very grateful for the help I've received here. It only comes down to consideration and respect. Those seeking information should not expect others to do their groundwork, and no researcher should feel compelled to share their personal work. I can tell at a quick glance whther or not to use my "delete" button, and prefer to exercise that option rather than call for censorship or arbitrary rules. - Respectfully, Bob Skiba ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 21 Dec 1996 14:57:04 -0500 From: suzanne hader Subject: unsubscribing from h-costume Just a reminder as there seem to be a few people out there who don't get it: to unsubscribe from h-costume, send a message to listserv@brownvm.brown.edu with 'signoff h-costume' in the body. If you get an error message, your email address may have changed slightly. If the mail you subscribed with was blah@mynode.icky.net, and now your mail is directed through another box so it appears as blah@mailhost.icky.net, LISTSERV WILL NOT UNDERSTAND, and I'll have to manually remove you. If you're afraid this might have happened, to get a list of subscribers send the command 'review h-costume' to listserv@brownvm.brown.edu. I do not read h-costume all the time, so sending unsubscribe requests to the list will prove frustrating for you and everyone else who has to deal with your mail. Have a fine holiday season, suzanne hader smh@cs.brown.edu h-costume list owner ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Oct 1996 12:38:06 -0700 From: Margo Anderson Subject: Re: inane posts that don't really ask anything At 11:49 AM 12/21/96 -0600, you wrote: (Sarcastic attack deleted) > Speaking as a newbie-costumer, I know there's a lot I don't know, and >when I saw this mailing list I assumed that it would be a good place to fill >some of the gaps in my knowledge. From what I have seen from everyone else >here, in the year I've been on the list, most people are quite willing to lend >a hand or just a quick pointer. > > Thanks for listening to my rant, I'll even try to make this topical now >;> > Does anyone out there have much experience with Mongolian costumes? If >so, what were some of the more common colors...I know about red and blue, but >those are the only two 'popular' ones I've been able to find. Were there any >more? What Rich and I were trying to point out is that you will get more informative responses if you give us more detailed questions. The above is a perfect example. You are aware, I assume, that the Mongols first gained prominence during the reign of Genghis Khan, about 700 years ago? And that there are still Mongol peoples today? Without knowing what period you're interested in, I could accurately tell you that Mongol garb consists of felted wool clothing, or cloth of gold tunics, or Gore-tex parkas. Any of these are accurate for Mongol garb, but not at the same time. So if you want us to give you the best information we can, give us the specific questions you need answered. So what period are you interested in, Dan? Margo Anderson "One Tough Costumer" ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 21 Dec 1996 16:03:29 -0500 From: Kathleen Songal Subject: Archives Many of the new subscribers to h-costume may not be aware that there is a site: http://reality.sgi.com/pdc/h-costume/index.html This site contains the archives of the h-costume list up to the date March 1996. I have found this very valuable. All one need do is type in a few key words on the topic of their interest and it is available in this archive. Many of the questions that newbies might pose have already been answered. What I have been trying to find out for the past few days, though, is: where are the archives from March 1996 stored? If anyone knows, please post. Kathy Songal asongal@wincom.net ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 21 Dec 1996 15:47:39 -0800 From: Glenna Jo & Bill Christen Subject: Re: inane posts that don't really ask anything J&B wrote: > It only comes down to consideration and respect. Those seeking > information should not expect others to do their groundwork, and no researcher should feel compelled to share their personal work. I can tell at a quick glance whther or not to use my "delete" button, and prefer to exercise that option rather than call for censorship or arbitrary rules. - Respectfully, Bob Skiba I agree 100% with Mr. Skiba. H-Costume is an electronic BS session...listen to what you want...contribute when you want to...and by all means use the delete key. It does appear that some of you feel that that the world is coming to their doorstep to ask the meaning of "costuming," and/or "life." I know I don't have all the answers, and have not met anyone here on H-Costume that does. I have learned a great deal and am grateful for that. Bill Christen gwjchris@rust.net ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 21 Dec 1996 15:14:19 -0800 From: "Diana H." Subject: Gripe posts Hello fellow H-Costume readers, I find it sad and somewhat bothersome that this topic hasn't dropped off the discussion table yet. I feel like I am reading a gripe list. And what else does so-and-so not like? Can't we please drop this? Tired of reading the griping, Rose :~> ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 21 Dec 1996 20:18:58 -0500 From: Danielle Nunn Subject: Life stories - delurking Greetings everyone, I've decided to stop lurking and add my story. I was getting the list second hand and months late for about 8 months now. I've found it very interesting hearing other peoples beginnings. I've been interested in historical costuming my whole life (just about). I don't remember not being interested. I did my first interst talk on the history of costume grade 4. The interest contiued and I later branched into fashion design as well. I was very glad I discovered the SCA at the end of high school/beginning of University, it finally allowed me an outlet for my interest. Currently, my main interest is almost anything 16th century but, in particular Spain. I would also like to make a Watteau gown/saque dress, if only I some place to wear it, sigh. Happy holidays and happy sewing and research Cheers, Danielle dnunn@interlog.com (Lady Gwendoline Rosamond in the SCA) ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 21 Dec 1996 19:12:00 -0600 From: Someone You Trust Subject: Re: inane posts that don't really ask anything Thanks, Margo, for putting it clearer than Rich did (at least for me.) Guess I was a bit too caught up in my rant to think clearly at the end ;) I'm asking about the period roughly around Genghis' time. I was, tho' asking more about the colors of dyes used, not necessarily the cloth...as much as I'd love to be able to produce a cloth-of-gold tunic...'s a bit out of this po' college student's budget ;> Thanks again for putting forth your argument more clearly than did Rich. Yours seemed more like a request or gentle direction as opposed to "if you can't be specific get the [insert expletive] offa th' list!" -Dan ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 21 Dec 1996 21:28:36 -0500 From: Nancy Saputo Subject: COSTUMING-STRIVING FOR AUTHENTICITY While watching for the 100th time the BBC's production of PRIDE & PREJUDICE (released in the 1970s), I found myself wondering why some period movies (TV included) are more historically correct re costuming than others. Given that this forum is subscribed to by so many costumers, perhaps someone could explain this to me. My initial thoughts are that this is dependent upon budget and caliber of costumer (and, perhaps, during which decade the movie was filmed)? There is so much written and pictorial information available re costume--why can't it be duplicated on the silver screen? Just curious. Nancy Saputo ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 21 Dec 1996 21:51:56 -0500 From: No Name Subject: costuming--striving for authenticity I think one reason many movies have costumes that aren't completely authentic is the fact that in theatre, you're trying to impact an audience rather than be completely authentic. The first costume books I ever read were theatrical costume books, and they actually told the costumer not to go for strict authenticity for several reasons. One was cost, and another was the fact that you want to impact the audience first and authenticity has to take the back seat. ---Patricia ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 21 Dec 1996 23:12:16 EST From: Juli C Kupperman Subject: Khazar costuming I've been lurking on the list for several months now and have been quite impressed with the depth of knowledge show by various members on many subjects. I now have a question for the group that I hope is specific enough. ;) I've been doing research on the Khazars. While I've found info on culture, politics, etc.; costuming info is nil. They were a Turkic people who controlled one of the silk routes from the East to Byzantium and the had contact with the Norse, Rus,and the Arab nations. They had subject peoples who were also of Turkic derivation. They had trade agreements of various types with all these folks as well as alliances by marriage. They, as a people, converted to Judaism about 770. The time period I'm looking at is 830-900. I do have lots of research on the Norse, Rus, Byzantium, and East but I can't find specifics on the Khazars. I could try interpolating from what I do know, but am unsure of the effects of the conversion on dress. If anyone has specific documentable info please let me know. Thanks in advance. Juli Kupperman A nice Norse woman who married a funny looking outlander. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 21 Dec 1996 20:24:16 -0800 From: Frances Grimble Subject: Re: costuming--striving for authenticity In the theater costumes have to register from a distance, look good under special lighting, and often, convey special meanings. The last is true for TV and film also. One very interesting film I remember is _The Draftsman's Contract_. It has been a long time I saw it, but I believe it was set in the early 18th century. It is a murder mystery, where the draftsman goes to an aristocratic country estate to make an engraving of it. The owner turns up dead. Most of the characters are suspected of the murder at one point or another, but not during the entire film. Whenever they are not under suspicion they are dressed entirely in white; whenever they are, they are dressed entirely in black. Fran Grimble http://www.best.com/~lavolta/dance/index.htm ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 21 Dec 1996 23:41:24 -0500 From: J&B Subject: Re: COSTUMING IN FILM Nancy Saputo wrote: > > While watching for the 100th time the BBC's production of PRIDE & PREJUDICE > (released in the 1970s), I found myself wondering why some period movies (TV > included) are more historically correct re costuming than others. Given that > this forum is subscribed to by so many costumers, perhaps someone could > explain this to me. > > My initial thoughts are that this is dependent upon budget and caliber of > costumer (and, perhaps, during which decade the movie was filmed)? There is > so much written and pictorial information available re costume--why can't it > be duplicated on the silver screen? > Nancy - I'm a historical dancer as well as a historian/costumer, and I brought the same question up in my dance newsgroup. I can't watch an historical movie anymore without cringing at something. It's a complicated question. Most often I think it has to do with the compromises directors and artistic directors make to make sure that modern audiences can relate to the characters. Other times, it's just plain mistakes My recent case in point was "Valmont" The costumes were mostly fine, some were just badly made. Some were loosely (very loosely) based on paintings. The dancing was the closest I've seen to decent 18thc dance in ANY film. (Mostly historical dance on film is bloody awful.) The hair and makeup were from the covers of romance novels, (no one had powdered hair in this movie - even at court where this would have been unthinkable) the furniture was from a period 20 years later than the clothing, and details were wrong, (coffeecups were shown with handles etc.) Worst of all was the fact that every court "noble" spoke ina breezy, modern colloquial, informal style, and managed to slouch in corsets. The point is, everyone has different things that are important to them, and we overlook the details that are not our "specialties" It takes a damn good artistic director to get it all right. Only Merchant-Ivory films have been really satisfying for me. Would love to hear other comments on historical costuming in films. Bob Skiba ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 21 Dec 1996 23:51:50 -0500 From: J&B Subject: Re: costuming--striving for authenticity Frances Grimble wrote: > > In the theater costumes have to register from a distance, look good > under special lighting, and often, convey special meanings. The last is > true for TV and film also. > Fran Grimble > http://www.best.com/~lavolta/dance/index.htm On the contrary, Fran - as opposed to live theater, details on film show up even more glaringly on a 20 foot screen, and for better or worse, they can be rewound and scrutinized on videos! -Bob Skiba ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 21 Dec 1996 23:40:37 -0500 From: "Penny E. Ladnier" Subject: Re: costuming--striving for authenticity At 09:51 PM 12/21/96 -0500, you wrote: >I think one reason many movies have costumes that aren't completely authentic >is the fact that in theatre, you're trying to impact an audience rather than >be completely authentic. The first costume books I ever read were theatrical >costume books, and they actually told the costumer not to go for strict >authenticity for several reasons. One was cost, and another was the fact that >you want to impact the audience first and authenticity has to take the back >seat. ---Patricia I asked my costume design research professor, what is the main difference between costume for the stage and the screen. The answer lies in how close an audience is. In theatre, the silhouette and the color scheme are very important. In film, detailing is very important (those close ups catch everything). It seems the more educated costumers and make up artists are pertaining to the correctness of costume history, the better quality productions are made. I was taught that the costume is a total look (makeup and dress together). It is funny to look at a lot of period films from the 60's & 70's and see period dress with current day makeup. Fortunately this has improved. Peace my fellow costumers, remember the season... Penny Penny E. Ladnier, Virginia Commonwealth University s0peladn@erols.com http://www.geocities.com/BourbonStreet/2157 member: Costume Society of America American Fashion Council Association for Information Systems Professionals ------------------------------ End of H-COSTUME Digest - 20 Dec 1996 to 21 Dec 1996 **************************************************** From ???@??? Mon Dec 23 14:12:19 1996 Received: from brownvm.brown.edu by mail.math.TU-Berlin.DE with SMTP id AA25010 (5.67b8/IDA-1.5 for ); Mon, 23 Dec 1996 06:02:51 +0100 Message-Id: <199612230502.AA25010@mail.math.TU-Berlin.DE> Received: from BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU by BROWNVM.brown.edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with BSMTP id 8775; Mon, 23 Dec 96 00:00:07 EST Received: from BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU (NJE origin LISTSERV@BROWNVM) by BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 6821; Mon, 23 Dec 1996 00:00:06 -0500 Date: Mon, 23 Dec 1996 00:00:01 -0500 Reply-To: Historic Costume List Sender: Historic Costume List From: Automatic digest processor Subject: H-COSTUME Digest - 21 Dec 1996 to 22 Dec 1996 To: Recipients of H-COSTUME digests There are 26 messages totalling 866 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. costuming on film 2. COSTUME ON FILM (2) 3. Khazars: source?? (2) 4. inane posts that don't really ask anything 5. Khazars 6. COSTUMING-STRIVING FOR AUTHENTICITY (2) 7. AUTHENTIC COSTUME/MOVIES, ETC. (2) 8. Hollywood book & a shoe book 9. My thanks.... 10. Fairys? 11. Movie authenticity (2) 12. coordination (2) 13. costuming--striving for authenticity 14. CELEBRATION OF PUMPS, SANDALS, ETC. 15. COSTUME-STRIVING FOR AUTHENTICITY 16. Wearing vintage clothes 17. Movies 18. Fustian - Thanks (2) 19. Help with 1920's costume for Gobi desert paleontologists ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 22 Dec 1996 00:05:08 -0500 From: J&B Subject: Re: costuming on film Nancy - I'm a historical dancer as well as costumer/historian, and I've brought the same issue up on my dance group. I think that 10% of historical errors on film are carelessness, and 90% are due to the willingness of directors to compromise details for "modern" audiences. My case in point was "Valmont" which is set in mid-late 18th c France. Clothes were generally good, many on closeups just seemed poorly made. Hair and makeup were atrocious representations of romance novel covers (which I think have a tremendous impact on modern iconography!) No one, even at a court wedding , wore powdered hair, although this would have been unthinkable. Most of the furniture was from period 20 years later than the clothing, coffeecups were shown with handles, etc., and worst of all, everyone spoke in colloquial, informal, badly pronounced english, and managed to slouch even in corsets. The point is that we are all directed toward the details that concern our field of expertise and overlook or dismiss the rest as unimportant. I think it takes a fine artistic director to see the whole picture. Only Merchant Ivory films have left me really satisfied. I'd love to hear ny other comments on historical costuming in film. Bob Skiba ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 22 Dec 1996 00:12:57 -0500 From: J&B Subject: COSTUME ON FILM Nancy - I'm a historical dancer as well as costumer/historian, and I've brought the same issue up on my dance group. I think that 10% of historical errors on film are carelessness, and 90% are due to the willingness of directors to compromise details for "modern" audiences. My case in point was "Valmont" which is set in mid-late 18th c France. Clothes were generally good, many on closeups just seemed poorly made. Hair and makeup were atrocious representations of romance novel covers (which I think have a tremendous impact on modern iconography!) No one, even at a court wedding , wore powdered hair, although this would have been unthinkable. Most of the furniture was from period 20 years later than the clothing, coffeecups were shown with handles, etc., and worst of all, everyone spoke in colloquial, informal, badly pronounced english, and managed to slouch even in corsets. The point is that we are all directed toward the details that concern our field of expertise and overlook or dismiss the rest as unimportant. I think it takes a fine artistic director to see the whole picture. Only Merchant Ivory films have left me really satisfied. I'd love to hear any other comments on historical costuming in film. Bob Skiba ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 22 Dec 1996 00:25:40 EST From: bglickman@ECKERT.ACADCOMP.MONROECC.EDU Subject: Khazars: source?? I'm supposedly descended from Khazars (partly) so several years ago when one of the Bool Clubs offered "Dictionary of the Khazars: A Lexicon novel", by Milorad Pavic', I bought it... I haven't read it... it's bizarre.... If you can't find it via interlibrary loan, I'd be happy to loan you my copy for a while. It's NOT a costume reference book! but I found some comments about clothing, etc., buried here and there: p. 209: "..all jewelry and objects he has bestowed upon his bethrothed...: the bracelets on her wrists, necklaces,rings, cap, stockings, and toe warmers..."(17th century) and a dress- p. 215: "blue with yellow and red ribbons" (1627). Lot's of history, etc. on the khazars - religion, etc. The book's not real high on my TBR list, so let me know. Also if anyone out there has read it, what did you think of it? I have the "male" version; I think I got the "female" also, but don't see it right now... Regards from COLD Rochester, NY!! (Not snowing yet - maybe later...) Bonnie Glickman -------------------------------------------------|=|=|=|=|=|=|=|=|=|=|=|=|= Bonnie Glickman =|=|= "I'm NOT waiting Bio. Dept.; Monroe Comm. Coll. |=|=| until I'm old... Rochester, NY 14623 (716) 292-2725 =|=|= I'm wearing my email: bglickman@eckert.acadcomp.monroecc.edu |=|=| Purple NOW!!" -bg or GLICKMAN@mccvm.is.monroecc.edu =|=|=|=|=|=|=|=|=|=|=|=|=| ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Oct 1996 21:29:26 -0700 From: Margo Anderson Subject: Re: inane posts that don't really ask anything At 07:12 PM 12/21/96 -0600, you wrote: >Thanks, Margo, for putting it clearer (SNIP) Thank You for such a gracious reply! .as much as I'd love to be >able to produce a cloth-of-gold tunic...'s a bit out of this po' college >student's budget ;> > Not neccesarily! The cloth of gold tunic I'm thinking of was in a show at the De Young Museum in San Francisco. Unfortunately, it's a few days before Christmas and I'm frantically hiding everything, including all my miscellaneous papers that might help me remember the details, in an attempt to have a clean house before guests arrive. Did anyone else see this exhibit, and, hopefully, purchase a catalog? I believe the tunic in question was 19th century, although the notice said it was a traditional style, so it's probably not in your period.... It was flared in the body, but had extra long sleeves to push up in wrinkled "bracelets" like some medieval gowns, and was made of loosely woven gold fabric with very fine threads, and what caught my eye was that the fabric appeared identical to some Lurex fabric that I had seen in a Pakistani import store, for $20 a yard. So, it could be made for around $60, depending on size. The notice also said that these tunics were specifically for wear at banquets, where the practice was to wipe one's hands on one's clothing, thus proving that you were rich enough to wear such a costly garment only once! (They did suggest that this story is probably not true.) Well, now I've given a long rambling answer to a question you didn't ask! I'd be hoist on my own petard, if I had one. Margo Anderson > ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 22 Dec 1996 00:05:00 CST From: Mickie Erickson Subject: Khazars Khazar costumers: I don't, personally, have any specific references for you; however, you may find something useful in the Osprey series; they should have a book on the Byzantines & their allies... Also, the references you have for the Byzantines should show illustrations of various ambassadors; if I recall correctly, they were quite good on their details... Good luck! Tom@Mickie ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 22 Dec 1996 01:38:28 -0500 From: Marti Magarian Dolata Subject: Re: COSTUMING-STRIVING FOR AUTHENTICITY >My initial thoughts are that this is dependent upon budget and caliber of >costumer (and, perhaps, during which decade the movie was filmed)? There is >so much written and pictorial information available re costume--why can't it >be duplicated on the silver screen? There is an interesting book on this subject called (I think) Historical Hollywood or Hollywood Costume in History -- er - I guess I don't really remember the title and I certainly don't remember the author. However, she goes into historical accuracy of costume, make-up and hair of quite a number of movies, not only pointing common errors but theorising on why they were made. I came across it at the Univerisity of Arizona. Keywords costume, history and hollywood ought to turn it up. I would appreciate the title being posted if anyone finds it, as my inability to remember what exactly was said makes me realize I should own a copy. Another interesting related book is George McDonald Frazer's Hollywood History where he reviews the accuracy of a number of movies, and philosophizes on their worth in appreciating previous eras. Frazer, besides being the author of the inimitable Flashman series (highly recommended, especially for Victorian enthusiasts) is also the writer of the best Three Musketeers movie (directed by Richard Lester, starring Richard Chamberlin, Oliver Reed, Michael er, ,er , I just think I'll go home to bed now as I'm obviously suffering from neural shutdown!) Marti Marti Magarian Dolata marti@ai.chem.ohiou.edu AKA Goodwife Margery Locke, Slightly disturbed Scientist, and raging biblioholic. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 22 Dec 1996 08:08:56 -0500 From: Nancy Saputo Subject: AUTHENTIC COSTUME/MOVIES, ETC. I have yet another question on this subject. Being an antique clothing collector and preservationist, I cringe at the thought of GENUINE garments being used in a period piece. Several years ago I happened to be in an antique clothing store with a very large selection of COSTLY antique costume and accessories. Also present were representatives of The Disney Channel, seeking original garments (c. 1860s) for wear in whatever it was they were filming...some historical piece. These costumes are irreplaceable! What purpose does it serve the production company to use originals--why not re-create? And just what happens to these garments after filming (when they're probably covered with make-up, perspiration, etc.)? Nancy Saputo ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 22 Dec 1996 14:08:03 GMT From: "Reflections of the Past, Antiques" Subject: Re: Hollywood book & a shoe book > There is an interesting book on this subject called (I think) >Historical Hollywood or Hollywood Costume in History -- >er - I guess I don't really remember the title and I certainly don't >remember the author. However, she goes into historical accuracy of >costume, make-up and hair of quite a number of movies, not only pointing >common errors but theorising on why they were made. ===================================== I have one book called "Hollywood and History, Costume Design in Film", organized by Eddward Maeder. It is a catalogue of an exhibition at the Los Angeles County Museum of Art, 1987. ISBN 0-500-01422-1. 256 pages. Speaking of reference books... I picked up one yesterday (with 5 others) at Borders titled "Shoes, A Celebration of Pumps, Sandals, Slippers & More" by Linda O'Keeffe. Size is 4x6, but 506 pages. Mostly photos (not much historical text) of shoes from the 1600's to 1990's. But the photos are great and of ACTUAL shoes. Price $11.95, nice stocking stuffer from yourself! ISBN 0-7611-0114-4 Happy Holidays! ***************************************************** Joanne Haug "Victoriana-Resources for Victorian Living" http://www.victoriana.com and "Reflections of the Past, Antique Costume & Textiles" http://www.victoriana.com/antiques registry@victoriana.com Voice/Fax(216)835-6924 ***************************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 22 Dec 1996 10:01:57 -0500 From: SyRilla@AOL.COM Subject: My thanks.... Thanks goes to everyone who sent me information on making a quick 1840's dress and bonnet. It went over wonderfully, even though I was dead after the three very late nights. :) I made the bonnet like many of you suggested, by cutting and reshaping a straw hat. I made a little mess, but after it was covered it look good. I think I made the brim a little to high. oh well, the wearer liked it. I do need to apologize to some people that I was talking to, that offered suggestions or that I was giving suggestions to, My computer desided to shut down and eat most of my mail so I lost most of the addresses in which to respond to. once again your humble student, Kimberly ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 22 Dec 1996 10:09:07 -0500 From: Nancy Saputo Subject: COSTUME ON FILM Bob writes: >> I think that 10% of historical errors on film are carelessness, and 90% are due to >>the willingness of directors to compromise details for "modern" audiences. As we all know, many unknowledgeable "audiences" will accept as gospel the representations presented to them of historical costume (and history, for that matter)...be they "modern" or "ancestral". This is a great disservice to the public. If a costumer must spend years attaining an education to become expert at his/her craft, why wouldn't a director utilize these skills? What benefit is there to compromise? And, as a costumer, do you have to "grit your teeth" to produce a finished product you KNOW is not historically correct? Nancy Saputo ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 22 Dec 1996 10:38:58 -0500 From: SyRilla@AOL.COM Subject: Fairys? I am having trouble finding information on what people of the 1500's thought that faires, and other forest folk looked like. Thank you . Kimberly@aol.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 22 Dec 1996 11:50:32 -0500 From: Ed Safford & Carol Kocian Subject: Movie authenticity Nancy wrote, >My initial thoughts are that this is dependent upon budget and caliber of >costumer (and, perhaps, during which decade the movie was filmed)? There is >so much written and pictorial information available re costume--why can't it >be duplicated on the silver screen. I think the lack of authenticity is deliberate, as well. It's found even more in comedies, like _Robin Hood, Men In Tights_. In the world of reenactors, humor is also found that strays from authenticity. I think that's where the idea comes in that authenticity & fun are opposites. :) Modern songs are given funny lyrics with period topics or reenacting topics. New lyrics are also given to period tunes. One friend talked about making a mid-18thC gown out of green moire' fabric, with a deep pink stomacher with black beads on it. She would be a Watteau Melon. A writer to this list described a Carmen Miranda Regency era outfit she made. The challenge is in how to pull off these jokes while still being fairly authentic. In historic dance (as Bob may also have seen) funny variations have been tried. One group I was in used to dance a 5-step waltz to "Everything's All Right" from _Jesus Christ Super Star_. Not for a public display, of course. >Bob writes: > >>>I think that 10% of historical errors on film are carelessness, and 90% >>>are due to the willingness of directors to compromise details for >>>"modern" >>>audiences. This can be particularly amusing in older movies. We can detect a period hair or makeup style that fits with the era the film was made rather than the time depicted. Westerns from the 1960's are notorious for heavy eye makeup and bouffant hair. Nancy wrote, >As we all know, many unknowledgeable "audiences" will accept as gospel the >representations presented to them of historical costume (and history, for >that matter)...be they "modern" or "ancestral". This is a great disservice >to the public. And costumers will want to use movies for documentation, too. It's the impact of seeing an actor or actress looking beautiful in a costume for a dramatic scene. Originals on display at a museum aren't nearly as impressive for a lot of people. I guess we think of ourselves as being a central player in a historic scene rather than a static display. Nancy wrote, >If a costumer must spend years attaining an education to become expert at >>his/her craft, why wouldn't a director utilize these skills? Movie costume designers are taking costume another step away from the original sources. They are paid to do this and add their own creativity. I guess it's a matter of the costume designer showing their own ideas. Some costume designers don't even sew that much - their skill is in drawing a design that someone else constructs. Bob wrote, >I'm a historical dancer as well as a historian/costumer, and I brought the >>same question up in my dance newsgroup. I can't watch an historical movie >>anymore without cringing at something. Understanding what the movie costumers, set dressers, etc. are doing, I don't cringe as much any more. I've managed to be able to enjoy most movies now. Sometimes I'm challenged - when a movie contains something I question, I look it up. I may find what inspired the designer, or I may learn something new! I find that movie costumes inspire me to go back to the source rather than to constuct a costume to match what's on screen. Nancy wrote, >And, as a costumer, do you have to "grit your teeth" to produce a finished >product you KNOW is not historically correct? I really have to stop gritting my teeth. It can cause gum & bone recession. And did you know holding pins in your teeth can chip them? And biting thread - eeeek! Ooops, sorry, I've just been to the dentist. For my own sewing, generally I do enough research that I'm satisfied with how authentic it is. I know where I make compromises. Some materials are not readily available. If it's the inner structure, like metal boning instead of whalebone for corsets, I deal with it. When researching, I can find out what colors are appropriate, and then that's compared with what I have in the fabric closet. If I go out shopping for a specific fabric, I'm not certain to find it. I can only hope to find something that's appropriate for the period. This thread has given me a lot to think about! -Carol *^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^* This account is shared by Carol Kocian and Ed Safford. Carol can also be e-mailed at ckocian@epe.org Ed is also at esafford@sun1.wwb.noaa.gov . ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 22 Dec 1996 09:21:57 -0800 From: "Lawrence H. Kincaid Jr." Subject: coordination A while back I read an Associated Press article titled; Magazine(Tatler) tatles on Diana's wardrobe. It says the English upper classes deplore coordinating of what one wears. Coordinating I interpret as meaning color coordinating. My Question is: when did color coordination as seen in todays contempoary popular cultur orginate. In the Regency a man could wear black shoes white sox and a blue tail coat. these are contrasts. I had a friend who was new to the Ren Faire in N. CA. 5 yrs ago. The director of Inyard Games told her she was too coordinated every thing she had on was a shade and tint of blue except the shift was white. The director said they diden't coordinate in the Renaissance. The Tatler article covered some other very interesting things. Sincerly Larry Kincaid ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 22 Oct 1996 09:31:36 -0700 From: Margo Anderson Subject: Re: Movie authenticity > > This can be particularly amusing in older movies. We can detect a >period hair or makeup style that fits with the era the film was made rather >than the time depicted. Westerns from the 1960's are notorious for heavy >eye makeup and bouffant hair. > I don't think that this is only a fault of older movies. Most of the films that have been cited here as examples of historical accuracy will probably look just as dated in thirty years. The problem being that the current aesthetic is what looks right and natural to us. I'm thinking of 1800's period works with actresses wearing mascara, or fluffy, freshly washed looking hairstyles. I once read that art forgeries are often found out by errors in the clothing, but even more commonly, the hairstyles. Somehow, the modern aesthetic always creeps in. As to why films aren't made with more stringent attention to period, Why should they be? Costume design is an art, and as such, its mission is to serve the telling of the story, not to laboriously reproduce history in order to educate. We have museums and reenactors for that purpose. Some of us enjoy it when the costumes are accurate, some people love fantastic adaptations of historical style. Isn't there enough room for both? ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 22 Dec 1996 12:51:14 -0500 From: Sharon and/or Mikie Subject: COSTUMING-STRIVING FOR AUTHENTICITY I found myself wondering why some period movies (TV >included) are more historically correct re costuming than others. >My initial thoughts are that this is dependent upon budget and caliber of >costumer (and, perhaps, during which decade the movie was filmed)? There is >so much written and pictorial information available re costume--why can't it >be duplicated on the silver screen? > >Just curious. > >Nancy Saputo > Hi there! I am a costumer for theatre (well, a student anyways), and this is the story. The costumers (as in the people who actually make the clothes, or find them at rental agencies, etc) have very little to do with the style, period, colour, fabric, trims, etc. of a garment for a film or production. The director of the show gets an idea in his/her head about what the show should look like. They go to a designer, who puts the director's idea's down on paper. The costumers get the costume designer's sketches and make/rent/buy whatever is needed. So, contrary to popular belief, if you see a Victorian gown in a film set in the late 1700's, don't blame the costumers, they were just following orders!! A lot of times, especially if the inaccuracy is blatently obvious, the designer did it on purpose. Designers know their periods, and they usually have access to (if they don't own them) hundreds of books. They aren't avoiding the research, they are usually trying to 1)make a statement about that character 2)making things a little less expensive (especially in fabric choice) 3)some other reason, that maybe wasn't the best choice. Now if you get to picky little details (a gown closed with buttons ten years before they figured that out...) then that is a lack of research. Costuming is also VERY dependant on budget, but accurate doesn't always have to mean really expensive. Sharon ***************************** * * * DON'T MESS WITH TECHIES - * * * * THEY ALL CARRY KNIVES * * * ***************************** ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 22 Dec 1996 10:11:40 -0800 From: Frances Grimble Subject: Re: costuming--striving for authenticity J&B wrote: > > Frances Grimble wrote: > > > > In the theater costumes have to register from a distance, look good > > under special lighting, and often, convey special meanings. The last is > > true for TV and film also. > > > Fran Grimble > > http://www.best.com/~lavolta/dance/index.htm > > On the contrary, Fran - as opposed to live theater, details on film show up even more > glaringly on a 20 foot screen, and for better or worse, they can be rewound and > scrutinized on videos! -Bob Skiba Uh, Bob, that's exactly what I meant when I said stage costumes have to _register from a distance_; they tend not to concentrate on details as much as film and theatrical costume. Note I said _the last_ (conveyence of special meanings) is true for TV and film also. I am quite aware that costuming details register on film. My message was primarily a discussion of symbolism in theatrical/film costume. Fran ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 22 Dec 1996 10:15:10 -0800 From: Frances Grimble Subject: Re: Khazars: source?? bglickman@ECKERT.ACADCOMP.MONROECC.EDU wrote: > > I'm supposedly descended from Khazars (partly) so several years ago when one > of the Bool Clubs offered "Dictionary of the Khazars: A Lexicon novel", by > Milorad Pavic', I bought it... I haven't read it... it's bizarre.... > > The book's not real high on my TBR list, so let me know. Also if anyone > out there has read it, what did you think of it? I have the "male" > version; I think I got the "female" also, but don't see it right now... > _Dictionary of the Khazars_ is a fabulous novel, one of the best I've ever read. But I wouldn't use any novel (except one written in the period being researched) for costume research. Fran Grimble http://www.best.com/~lavolta/dance/index.htm ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 22 Dec 1996 10:31:55 -0800 From: Frances Grimble Subject: Re: AUTHENTIC COSTUME/MOVIES, ETC. Nancy, > > I have yet another question on this subject. Being an antique clothing > collector and preservationist, I cringe at the thought of GENUINE garments > being used in a period piece. Several years ago I happened to be in an > antique clothing store with a very large selection of COSTLY antique costume > and accessories. Also present were representatives of The Disney Channel, > seeking original garments (c. 1860s) for wear in whatever it was they were > filming...some historical piece. > > These costumes are irreplaceable! What purpose does it serve the production > company to use originals--why not re-create? Probably the film company was responding to complaints that film costuming is not accurate enough. They may have wanted the actors to wear authentic period garments. Or--since the actors were modern sizes and not necessarily the same sizes as garments that looked apppropriate for them--the film company may have planned to copy the garments. In any case, is it your business what the film company does with them during or after filming? The topic of wearing vintage garments has been discussed many times on h-costume. To summarize points I've made repeatedly--the average garment is not museum worthy. The average person or business (including film companies) is not a museum. And should not be pressured to behave like on one someone else's moral grounds. I do historic and vintage dance from the Renaissance through the 1920s. I have often worn garments from the 1870s through the 1920s for this purpose. I move vigorously and I sweat. The garments do not fall apart on my body, and I have them hand dry cleaned after I've sweated on them. I have seen a great many people wear vintage clothes for vintage dance with similar results. On at least two occasions I have seen women dance all evening in dresses from the 1830s. I do not wear my 1830s dresses for dance, but I observed that theirs did not suffer any visible ill effects. Do what you want with your vintage clothing collection--preserve it in a dark closet, display it, wear it, whatever. But please, do not criticize film companies or anyone else for having goals that do not agree with yours. Fran Grimble http://www.best.com/~lavolta/dance/index.htm ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 22 Dec 1996 14:47:26 -0500 From: Nancy Saputo Subject: CELEBRATION OF PUMPS, SANDALS, ETC. Reflections of the Past posted a book title: SHOES, A CELEBRATION OF PUMPS, SANDALS, SLIPPERS & MORE by Linda O'Keefe. I just want to confirm that this book is a real TREAT! Quality photos of extant shoes dating back as far as 2500 B.C.! Colors to arouse all your senses...and talk about creativity! Also, please be aware of a new book: UNMENTIONABLES, A BRIEF HISTORY OF UNDERWEAR (by Elaine Benson and John Esten)(ISBN 0-684-82266-0). As I just bought this book hours ago, I cannot comment other than it contains more photos than text, and appears to deal moreso with the 20th century. Responding to Carol's words re MOVIE AUTHENTICITY: Thank you for your insightful comments. I am learning about a different aspect of costume, and enjoying it thoroughly. Carol writes: >>One friend talked about making a mid-l8thC gown out of green moire' fabric, >>with a deep pink stomacher with black beads on it. She would be a >>Watteau Melon. One need only close their eyes to delight in that vision! Thanks for the beta-endorphines. Carol writes: >>It's the impact of seeing an actor or actress looking beautiful in a costume >>for a dramatic scene. So costuming can also be a creative process in which to evoke certain emotions from an audience? And perhaps we might have some mental manipulation here, also? Nancy Saputo ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 22 Dec 1996 15:36:18 -0500 From: Nancy Saputo Subject: COSTUME-STRIVING FOR AUTHENTICITY Responding to Sharon: Ah, I'm beginning to understand. The keyword here is DIRECTOR. And costumers must follow the director's orders? And there are conscientious directors, and those just out to make a buck (or a personal statement)? >>I will assure you...this is not a normal practice in the theatre, at least. >>We are told NEVER EVER EVER to use anything that is >>a) irreplaceable (ie antique, heirloom, original). Wonderful news! Responding to Fran Grimble: >>...the average garment is not museum worthy. Perhaps not to you. But aren't we fortunate that some very average clothing artifacts WERE judged important enough to be safeguarded for future generations to study? What may be unimportant today could become extremely important tomorrow. >>I have seen a great many people wear vintage clothes for vintage dance... >>but I observed that theirs [garment] did not suffer any visible ill effects. There ARE silent and deadly killers: what you cannot see NOW could very likely appear LATER! Structural damage could occur to the fibers, wherein they lose their natural properties of resiliency, elasticity and tensile strength. Improper dry-cleaning can place too much strain on the textile, thereby damaging it severely. It is not a matter of criticism...but moreso one of educating. Nancy Saputo ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 22 Dec 1996 12:58:54 -0800 From: Frances Grimble Subject: Re: Wearing vintage clothes Nancy, > It is not a matter of criticism...but moreso one of educating. Please do not assume that everyone who disagrees with you is ignorant and in need of educating. I have collected, restored, and worn vintage clothes for 23 years to date. I have written one book on vintage clothing, plus over 60 articles published in national magazines. I am in the process of writing another, related book. I know what I am talking about; I just disagree with you. Fran Grimble ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 22 Dec 1996 19:45:08 -0500 From: "Penny E. Ladnier" Subject: Movies At 11:50 AM 12/22/96 -0500, you wrote: >Nancy wrote, Some costume designers don't even sew that much - their skill is in >drawing a design that someone else constructs. > I travel back and forth between two departments at college, fashion and theatre. The majority of the fashion design majors can draw beautifully and have never sewn prior to college. All the costume design (theatre) students have sewn since they were at least six years old, but only two of them can draw. Both groups take drawing and sewing classes together. The majority of both groups want to design for the screen. These are your future designers. Makes you wonder, doesn't it. Penny Penny E. Ladnier, Virginia Commonwealth University s0peladn@erols.com http://www.geocities.com/BourbonStreet/2157 member: Costume Society of America American Fashion Council Association for Information Systems Professionals ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 22 Dec 1996 17:46:14 -0800 From: Cynthia Virtue Subject: Re: coordination Mr. Kincaid asked about "coordinating" of outfits. I don't have a good date for the start of this, but I agree that it is a recent phenomen. One of the things that I mention in the amateur classes that I teach about clothing styles from the 1400s is this very fact--hats never match garments, inner and outer garments aren't in the same color families, etc. Out of all the illuminations or paintings I've looked at (probably thousands, by this point) *one* woman's hat was the same color as her gown. Likewise for men, very different hose color from gown from under-gown, from hood. Cynthia ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Dec 1996 13:47:23 +1000 From: Sarah Randles Subject: Re: Fustian - Thanks Thanks to all those who answered my questions on fustian composition both privately and via the list. I appreciate your help and was able to come up with an appropriate definition for the colonial text I was working on. Merry Christmas and Joyous Costuming to you all, Sarah ****************************************************************************** Sarah Randles email: s-randles@adfa.oz.au English Department phone: 06 268 8898 University College ADFA fax: 06 268 8899 Canberra ACT 2601 AUSTRALIA Gregs First Law of punctuation: for every omtted apostrophe (Australias, Womens) theres an equal and opposite extra one (potato's, pyjama's). Its predicted by the year 2000 that apostrophe's will cease to exist or every 's will have one but I' suspect the'yll still keep coming randoml'y. (Apostrophe's, by Greg Dare) ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 22 Dec 1996 20:14:11 -0800 From: Kay Lancaster Subject: Help with 1920's costume for Gobi desert paleontologists I'm newly subscribed to this list, in hope that someone might give me a few suggestions. A science museum that I volunteer at is having an exhibition of dinosaurs and a few mammal fossils from the Gobi desert. As a sidelight on "how paleontologists excavate" we're also having docents demonstrate excavation and cataloging. That's the easy part. ;-) The hard part is the excavation is modeled on the Roy Chapman Andrews digs in the 1920's (he's the guy "Indiana Jones" was sort of modeled on). Proper costumes for the males won't be too difficult -- we've got photos from Andrews' Gobi digs. BUT... some of our volunteers are female, and we need to costume them in period. Furthermore, our costume budget is non-existant. So please, can you suggest "doable" costumes for the female staff of this imaginary expedition? Grubby is understood... but shall we be daring and wear trousers? Bobbed hair? Skirts, and if so, style and length? Blouse or jacket style? Leather-soled, lace-up boots and rimless or hornrimmed glasses I thought would be ok. I've dug up some photos of female US botanists of the period... costumes there range from split skirts to ankle-length dark skirts and sunbonnets, but most of these ladies knew they were posing for the camera in the field. (and US male botanists of the period typically wore suits in similar pictures, even when standing chest-deep in a pond!) If we go with something like skirts and blouses, I can probably sew a couple of outfits we can share -- but I need a starting point for dressing 25-60 yr old American women on a desert dig in China. If you think trousers would be ok, dare we make do with off-the-shelf khakis? All pointers gratefully and humbly received. Kay Lancaster kay@fern.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 22 Oct 1996 19:50:16 -0700 From: Margo Anderson Subject: Re: Fustian - Thanks I'm making an 1840 's evening bodice with a pleated bertha. My problem is that my client is very short and has to lift her arm quite high with a tall dancing partner, and we're concerned that the bertha may be too restricting. Is there a solution to this problem, beyond her hissing at her partner to get his arm down? I'm thinking of attaching it to the bodice with swing tacks, to give it room to move, but how much ease should there be? does anyone have a method that would work well? Also, forgive me asking a question I should have the answer to on hand, but as I said before, the Christmas cleaning blitz has hidden a lot of my research materials. Did these bodices most commonly lace, or hook? We would prefer to use lacing because it's more forgiving of weight gain, but not if it's not correct Margo Anderson "One Tough Costumer" ------------------------------ End of H-COSTUME Digest - 21 Dec 1996 to 22 Dec 1996 **************************************************** From ???@??? Fri Dec 27 18:59:26 1996 Received: from brownvm.brown.edu by mail.math.TU-Berlin.DE with SMTP id AA29620 (5.67b8/IDA-1.5 for ); Tue, 24 Dec 1996 06:02:10 +0100 Message-Id: <199612240502.AA29620@mail.math.TU-Berlin.DE> Received: from BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU by BROWNVM.brown.edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with BSMTP id 0603; Tue, 24 Dec 96 00:00:35 EST Received: from BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU (NJE origin LISTSERV@BROWNVM) by BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 3302; Tue, 24 Dec 1996 00:00:34 -0500 Date: Tue, 24 Dec 1996 00:00:29 -0500 Reply-To: Historic Costume List Sender: Historic Costume List From: Automatic digest processor Subject: H-COSTUME Digest - 22 Dec 1996 to 23 Dec 1996 To: Recipients of H-COSTUME digests There are 25 messages totalling 927 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. coordination (3) 2. The Dumbfounded King 3. Question and "Into the Woods" 4. Silhouette forms 5. Wearing Vintage Clothes (2) 6. Pattern Reviewers 7. Clothing in Movies (2) 8. costumers and directors (2) 9. Authenticity on Stage and Screen 10. Historical Accuracy in Film.. balzos 11. Eyelets in Sleeves 12. AUTHENTIC COSTUME/MOVIES, ETC. 13. 18th-19th century Indian and British textiles 14. Coordination vs. color combinations 15. Victorian/Edwardian dress/hair 16. me and costuming (3) 17. Help with 1920's costume for Gobi desert paleontologists 18. 18th & 19th c. Indian dyes ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 23 Dec 1996 00:23:09 -0500 From: "Penny E. Ladnier" Subject: Re: coordination At 05:46 PM 12/22/96 -0800, you wrote: >Mr. Kincaid asked about "coordinating" of outfits. > >I don't have a good date for the start of this, but I agree that it is a >recent phenomen. One of the things that I mention in the amateur classes >that I teach about clothing styles from the 1400s is this very fact--hats >never match garments, inner and outer garments aren't in the same color >families, etc. Out of all the illuminations or paintings I've looked at >(probably thousands, by this point) *one* woman's hat was the same color >as her gown. Likewise for men, very different hose color from gown from >under-gown, from hood. > >Cynthia My subject has returned COLOR... In my research of color (it is still going on), I have not found matching color tints and shades used until 1890. This seems to have been a very big trend in Paris. You can find hats and all kind of accessories the same color, tint or shade as the dress. Penny Penny E. Ladnier, Virginia Commonwealth University s0peladn@erols.com http://www.geocities.com/BourbonStreet/2157 member: Costume Society of America American Fashion Council Association for Information Systems Professionals ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Dec 1996 16:57:17 +1100 From: "P. M. Ostwald" Subject: The Dumbfounded King Hi all, Since we are talking about costume in fil - Just thought I'd mention this great little spanish film, I caught the other night on SBS (Australia's National Multicultural Broadcast station). The film is in spanish, sorry I didn't catch its proper title, (which translates as The Dumbfounded King) set during the early reign of Philip 4th, which puts it in the 1620s. The film itself was made in 1991. The film has some really great early 17th century costumes - both the huge ruff and standing collar look (Spanish farthingale for women) and the Cavalier style (for want of a better descriptive term - low square neck gown +lace collar+ stomacher). I guess the period would be transitional between the two styles: Spanish and French/Northern European. I've rarely seen this period costumed on film, and these were quite stunning.The women's hair styles in particular look fairly accurate - thou I'm no expert! I can't comment on the makeup. The men's costumes also appeared to be a combination of Spanish and Cavalier (ish), with some gorgeous outfits, particularly those worn by the King. Well worth a look. I was particularly interested that two of the low square necked Cavalier style gowns (or rather early 17th century French - since the Queen was french) were laced up the back, rather than under/over the stomacher. Is this a French thing? or common in the English Cavalier style. Merry Xmas, Tricia ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Patricia Ostwald Newcastle Mater Hospital Medical Physicist Locked Bag 7 Radiation Oncology Department Newcastle Region Mail Centre 2310, NSW, Australia ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Dec 1996 01:00:02 -0500 From: "Penny E. Ladnier" Subject: Question and "Into the Woods" Today, at an auction I bought what they called an 1800's pleater. Does someone on the list know of a source I can get to see what an 1800's pleater looks like and how it functions? or can you verify from a description? Description of the pleater: 15" x 15" wood base 57 hinged steel bars 1/8" wide x 14 1/2 long The unhinged end of the bars clips onto the base. Each bar moves separately. Some of my costume designs for "Into the Woods" are on my web page now. This section takes a little while to load because of the amount of images. The pattern for the 1895 skirt is almost ready to go on my site. Check in for it later this week. I am in the final stages of scaling the last pattern sheet on computer (everything is computerized). If all works out, you show be able to pull a photograph of the original skirt (front and back) that I took the pattern off the web. Also, you will have a flat pattern, a scaled pattern, and step-by-step instructions (with illustrations) on how to make the garment. Please remember, many hours went into these projects, which is also my portfolio. Please respect my copyrights, one day I may get tired of going to college and get a real job. I give you these patterns because all of you have given me so much. Merry Christmas, Penny Penny E. Ladnier, Virginia Commonwealth University s0peladn@erols.com http://www.geocities.com/BourbonStreet/2157 member: Costume Society of America American Fashion Council Association for Information Systems Professionals ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 22 Dec 1996 23:58:31 -0800 From: Alice Morgan Subject: Re: Silhouette forms There is a technique involving plaster bandages to create a form. This is probably what you are thinking about. It seems popular to promote this as a "cheap" way to create a dress form, but the costs add up. Last time I priced this, it was about $30 in plaster bandages (plaster impregnated guaze), another $25 or so for the expanding foam chemicals. and then misc other supplies. more for a base, and misc tools. It helps to have a friend help you. its kinda messy. Still it can produce a reasonable dress form. if you are willing to spend a couple of weekends working on it. Alice NELSON, Carolyn A. said something close to this: > > Forgive me if this appears twice. I tried to send it two days ago, but > I never saw it show up in the digest, so I'm trying again. > > I have heard of a kit one can buy for making a custom form by wrapping > the body with dampened strips of, uh, fiberglass? The strips harden > within a few minutes, and can be cut up the front, back or side for easy > removal from the body, leaving a near perfect form of the subject. I > think it is the same prinicipal they now use for fiberglass casts (my 9 > year old broke his arm last year). > > Does anyone on the list have any experience with one of these kits, > and/or know how to order them? > > Thanks, > > Carolyn -- Alice Morgan Spotted Dog Systems ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Dec 1996 12:44:00 GMT From: Mrs C S Yeldham Subject: Re: Wearing Vintage Clothes Fran Grimble has obviously made useful contributions to our knowledge about clothes in her areas of interest. I just wonder if future generations would consider that outweighed by the damaged to clothes worn, or vice versa? Caroline Im afraid I'm with Richard and Margot on the questions we get asked. Too wide-ranging a question just makes me feel tired as I can't hope to answer it fully. Equally with questions asked frequently - the answers are in the archives! (mind you, I'm guilty of that myself!) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Dec 1996 09:03:17 -0500 From: Dale Loberger Subject: Pattern Reviewers I have a few American clothing patterns that I am looking for persons interested in trying out and giving me feedback on their ease of use and fit, along with your comments and suggestions. I am looking for both novice and very advanced people. If this is you, please send me an e-mail with the number of the pattern you are interested in "reviewing", your technical ability, and the size you want, and if you fit the profile of a reviewer I need and haven t found enough of yet (sizewise and ability-wise), I will send you a free copy of the pattern you request. I would like to have about five to eight reviewers for each pattern, hopefully of different sizes, so if you are interested, let me know as soon as possible. This is a limited opportunity - only one pattern per recipient, please! All sizes are included in each pattern and the drafts are printed on computer in large-scale (actual size) format. Directions are with each pattern and are to be reviewed as well! These patterns have all been made up at least once by me and/or my staff, have been checked for accuracy, and should be clear and easy to use. But this is what I want you to tell me! Bear in mind that these all contain actual construction techniques used in originals of the period, and will fit as the originals did (beware if you are uncomfortable with historical fit). Some parts may be sewn by machine. Please respond only if you will be able to work with the pattern and give me feedback within the next two months (by the end of February). There will be a questionnaire to fill out and space for your comments included with each pattern. The pattern you receive is yours to keep and use. Thank you in advance for your help and interest. Pattern # Subject Size range Comments 007 Infants/Toddlers Half-boned Stays & Waistcoat NB - 4 1700 - 1800. Warm upper bodies 076 Child s Stomacher front Gown & P coat 3 - 7 1700 - 1750. Fitted, common style 133 Backcountry Bedgown 1800 - 1840 4 - 26 Day &work attire w/ruched sleeves 397 Girls Work Frock or Daygown & 2 Aprons 7 - 14 1818 - 1830. Sh. sl., back close. 398 Ladies Work Frock or Daygown 4 - 26 1818 - 1830. High neck, long sl. 480 Farm Gown of the Rural South 1845 - 1850 4 - 26 Copy of original in the Atl. H. Soc. 718 A Ladies Robe and Stomacher 4 - 26 F& I era 1735 - 1750. 807 A Plain and Simple Gown 4 - 26 1790 - 1805 Round gown w/long sl 810 Boys Shirts and Trousers with Undervest 6 - 10 Years 1810 - 1825 Common wear. 813 Boys Eton Jacket and Vests c. 1790 - 1810 6 - 10 Simple, commonly worn w/trousers 812 Ladies Simple Regency Gown 4 - 26 1810 -1820. Waistcoat bodice front 815 Petticoat Bodice c. 1815 - 1820 4 - 26 as pictured in Cunnington 914 Gentlemens Regency Vests 1795 - 1815 36 - 48 High, tight, formal silhouette That s it for now. If this is a successful venture, I will repeat it later with other patterns. Thanks again! Susannah Eanes, Mantua Maker and Fine Tailoring Susannah s Heirloom, Ltd. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Dec 1996 08:52:10 CDT From: Cindy Abel Subject: Re: coordination My two (very amatuer)cents worth. The absolutely cordinated costume for men seems to have started with some court dress(late 17th century)and later with Beau Brummel in England--but really didn't get lifted off until the Victorian era when professional and gentilmen got more and more into the black suit with tastefully coordinated vest. Women came later to coordination(all one color or shade)except in mourning. Perhaps the English upper classes looking down upon coordinated outfits comes from them seeing the nouveau riche buying outfits at one "go"--purchasing accessories along with each gown(etc), instead of putting together what one has over time. According to my limited research Worth seems to have been the first designer to have been given credit for a woman's coordinated look and his profits came mainly from the nouveau riche, not "old money." Cindy Abel Health Sciences Library Creighton University 2500 California Plaza Omaha NE 68178-0400 Phone: 402-280-5144 Technology is wonderful only when it works correctly ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Dec 1996 10:04:44 -0500 From: J&B Subject: Re: coordination Ms. Virtue - The notion of color co-ordination (n the West) seems to arise in late fifteenth century northern Europe, cf. the famous picture of that all-white & gold Burgundian court festivity ("Hunting w/ Falcons at Court of Philip the Good" Boucher, 20,000 Years, p211) Anne Hollander (Seeing Through Clothes) also suggests Philip the Good as the first modern westerner to appear in an all-one-color (black) outfit qua-political fashion statement. I would TENTATIVELY suggest a festival/theatrical derivation for the whole phenomenon of "the co-ordinated outfit": it is c.1480-1500 that we see the earliest images of groups of performers dressed in matching costumes. These images emanate from the Northwest European sphere of influence of the Burgundian court. The appearance on festival stages of groups of like-dressed performers (transforming that group into a "corps de ballet" to use a term inappropriate to the fifteenth century) turns the group into unified moving scenery rather than a bunch of disparate individuals, thus focussing attention on the ideal that group meant to express. The adoption of a single-color suit (or co-ordinated outfit) would thus have indicated not only a certain kind of novel display, but wold have linked that display in the minds of viewers with the deeper ideals & messages expressed in festival representation: Philip the Good all in black shows himself devoted to ideas more important than dress because his one color outfit apparently short-circuits the ideals of fashionable display (no matter how sumptuous the garment in question may in fact be). The all-black thing persists in Flanders & Netherlands through the seventeenth century as a means of expressing a false disregard for personal display, but it is Spain (the heir to the Court of Burgundy) that promulgates the version LITE of this idea, the matching hat, the underskirt co-ordinated with the sleeve &c. With the rise of Spanish fashion as pan-European fashion in the mid-sixteenth century, Burgundian courtly notions of display are disseminated throughout Europe & the Americas shorn of their politico-festival meanings & adopted for their novelty alone. That's fashion for ya. James Middleton ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Dec 1996 10:09:53 -0500 From: Booboopies@AOL.COM Subject: Clothing in Movies I recently saw a behind the scenes show on A&E's Emma, to be broadcast in February. The costume designer (whose name I don't recall at the moment) said that the clothing is for the most part accurate, style-wise; however, she explained that she used muted colors even though muted colors are not period correct so that the costumes would not detract from the actors who are, after all, the centerpiece of the production. This was her decision, not the director's. Karen Mullian ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Dec 1996 10:41:54 -0500 From: Heather Leigh Harrison Subject: costumers and directors I didn't really want to get into the hot and heavy argument over this...but I do need to give my $.02 about this whole issue of who actually decides the costumes which end up on stage, screen or tv. As a freelance costumer with a MFA in Costume Design and Costume Technology, I have to say that MOST productions that I have been involved in or I have observed my colleagues involvement in, have been COLLABORATIVE processes. That's the whole beauty of theatre and creativity. You take the talents and gifts of all persons involved and combine them into the magic of art. Yes, it is a director's job to have a vision for the project but each designer (sets, lights, costumes, sound) must also have a vision and hopefully through clear communication and pre-production meetings, faxes, sketches, etc. each of these visions come together into a view which complement each other as well as support the overall premise of the piece. To say that costumers just "follow the director's orders" is to limit their input and talent (plus to imply that all directors are dictatorial ogre's on power trips!!) While there are MANY personalities floating around in the world and of course in the theatre and movie industry, there are still professionals out there working who see their craft as an opportunity at collaboration and creativity rather than giving orders and watching others carry them out. There are many factors in the end result of what elements end up on the screen or stage: money, time, environment, actor's personalities, producers desires for how their money is spent, etc. Various ones of these are more important than others on various productions and at various times in history. For obvious reasons, a lot of movies produced during WWII had themes of soldiers, war, fighting, etc. It's not that no one then knew about Jane Austen novels or "The Three Muscateers" or other great works, they just weren't putting as much energy, money or emphasis on those stories at that time. Definitely clothing on film and stage often reflects the fashion of the era in which the work is being produced (watch the '60's version of "Ben Hur" to see what I mean!) and some of that is probably due to poor research while it could also be any one of the factors mentioned above. It seems wise to chalk it up to another clue in how we change and grow and atittudes are altered rather than lambasting the innaccuracies of the decisions. Are we going to start railing on the cool trend in the 1970's of those who wore sweaters tied around their necks rather than on their arms as a sweater was intended to be worn?? Fashion is what fashion is and it is largely found beautiful or ugly (or accurate or not) due to the current sensibilities of the time. Let's accept it and smile at some silliness rather than trying to "correct" what we see as "wrong." Well, that was long-winded but definietly my input. That is what this is all about right?!? So, my intent was not to criticize anyone else's view but rather add my own to the mix. Peace to you all on this holiday season and have fun looking at all the great "party frocks" you will see in the next few weeks. Tis the season!! Heather ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Dec 1996 09:45:55 -0600 From: Catherine Kinsey Subject: Authenticity on Stage and Screen >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Ah, I'm beginning to understand. The keyword here is DIRECTOR. And costumers must follow the director's orders? And there are conscientious directors, and those just out to make a buck (or a personal statement)? Nancy Saputo <<<<<<<<<<<<<< After years of groaning at costuming in films and theater I finally came to realize this truth as well. My costume background is historical research and reproduction, not theater, but a friend who is a director pulled me in to help on a project of his where he wanted more historical accuracy. As I soon learned historical accuracy was desired, up to a point. That point being where it fit into the Director's overall picture for the production. If he had a firm idea of how he wanted something done, accurate or not, that was the way it would be. Please don't get me wrong, he was the Director so when and where he wanted authenticity was his choice to make and I did respect that. We both learned a lot from this experience and I have found myself picking up a few books on theatrical costuming since then. This experience though is what gave me a little more understanding, and tolerance, of what I see on film. I have to admit however that when a film/production is presented as trying to be authentic to the era of the piece, I like to see authenticty but I try to save the MST3K comments for the privacy of my own living room instead of the theater :). Cat' ckinsey@kumc.edu (who finally found this list again!) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Dec 1996 10:42:50 EST From: Liz Jones Subject: Historical Accuracy in Film.. balzos I'm not usually one to converse on anything regarding film or theatre, since my interest and experience comes from only recreation mediaeval and ren. costume. However, since it came up, does anyone have any comments on Zeffirelli's costume portrayal? There have been a few films (Romeo and Juliet, Taming of the Shrew, and possible Brother Sun, Sister Moon) that have impressed me with MOST of their costuming. I say this after first thinking that some of the stuff was out to lunch! But after doing some more research in Italian costuming of the time, I would find that many of those costumes were straight from portraits of the time. For example, I am a fan of the "bulbous balzo", and have done some fairly succesful experiments in reconstruction. I first saw one on-screen in Taming of the Shrew, and said "Wow, who dreamed that thing up?!" But now, I realize that there are direct inspirational portraits that were usually executed fairly true to the original. The exception I have found with him, is leading ladies. Elizabeth Taylor had far too much curve in her wedding dress in Shrew, or so I thought... But anyway, I would be interested in hearing comments that anyone might have regarding his work, or more specifically, that of his costumers. Does anyone know who they are or have crossed paths with them? As usual, I have an ulterior motive here, and that is to track down any secret sources of information on Italian costume of 1300-1650 that I might not know right now! By the way, as I type here in my sewing room, surrounded by unwrapped presents, I am inspired by the view of my most bulbous fuzzy balzo to date: a creation (circa 1440) with a basket weave frame covered with an assortment of flammable, natural fibers (birch bark, cotton batting, wool dryer lint) for padding it out to a asymmetrical shape, and then covered with fake blond hair wrapped with decorative braids. Although I am fairly proud of this monstrosity, my friends do say I look like a big matchstick, and would undoubtably act like one should I encounter flame! Best regards, and the happiest of holidays! Liz Jones Maestra Damiana Illaria d'Onde ljones@datalogix.com (don't use reply, use forward or address fresh) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Dec 1996 16:17:00 GMT From: "Chandler, Sally A." Subject: Eyelets in Sleeves Let's all be friends again and have a very jolly Yuletide! Perhaps someone can help me with something I've been pondering? In paintings and portraits of the late 15th century there are often eyelet holes in the upper sleeves of upper class men's and boys' doublets. These are a few inches down from the shoulder and usually there are a couple of pairs of points (ties) attached, but untied. They appear to be too low to attach false sleeves to. I once thought they had something to do with armour but that wouldn't work either as I can't locate any on the shoulder or sleeve head to balance them, and they are also shown on the garments of very small boys. Does anyone know what these are for? examples include two small boys in the 'Wedding Chamber' by Andrea Mantegna, 1474, Peurugino's 'Scenes from the Life of Saint Bernadine' 1473 and something of Holbein' s, - the 'Visit of the Ambassadors' I think. Thank you in anticipation, Best wishes, Sally Ann Chandler The Historical Clothing Company s.a.chandler@shu.ac.uk ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Dec 1996 08:06:11 -0800 From: Frances Grimble Subject: Re: Wearing Vintage Clothes Mrs C S Yeldham wrote: > > Fran Grimble has obviously made useful contributions to our knowledge about > clothes in her areas of interest. > > I just wonder if future generations would consider that outweighed by the > damaged to clothes worn, or vice versa? Caroline, This is what I mean by people confusing the role of individuals with the role of museums. Museums are in the business of preserving clothes. Individuals (including me) are not. They're my possessions, and I'm going to do exactly what I feel with them--just as I do with my other possessions. Fran ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Dec 1996 09:01:10 -0800 From: "R.L. Shep" Subject: Re: Clothing in Movies I recently rented a video of a new production/film of "Cold Comfort Farm" which happens to be one of my favorite books (Stella Gibbons). There is an older version but Idon't think it is out on video and it is done in B&W. This version was done in color and the costumes did not bother me, as such. It looked like the director made some decisions on the period and they went ahead with the costumes. I did object to the way they changed the costume of one of the main characters at the end because it did not really fit the story as well. BUT my main objection was that the whole thing was a 'pretty" vrsion of the period and in no way real. The real problem with that is that "Cold Comfort Farm" is very Gothic in feeling and has to have a lot of farm dirt in it. This production is so clean and so pretty that there is no contrast between one culture and the other (city folk and farm folk) and this is very very evident in the costumes. The video is worth seeing just to get a sense of how a movie can be ruined (at least in my opinion) by not getting the overall feeling right and how that is reflected in the costumes. ~!~ R.L. Shep ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Dec 1996 10:33:56 -0800 From: Gwyn Carnegie Subject: Re: costumers and directors At 10:41 AM 12/23/96 -0500, Heather wrote: > I have to say that MOST productions that I have been > involved in or I have observed my colleagues involvement in, have >been COLLABORATIVE processes. That's the whole beauty of theatre > and creativity. You take the talents and gifts of all persons involved and > combine them into the magic of art. Most directors are quite reasonable when discussing the production costumes- I'll second that. In my experience, the difficultly has been geting the whole art crew to agree;-) Shops can get so bitchy! I think that the hardest idea to relay when working a production is to get the director to really see the fabric he has his/her 's heart set on. I had a director once who insisted on a bright mauve nylon/acetate satin ballgown for a certain character. I could find almost the same color in a faile- but- no he had to have the high-gloss cheap stuff. The cameraman, the grips, and myself walked away shaking our heads. I produce the garment, in the seriously glossy satin, and the lighting folks had fits! The garment "vibrated" on film- which was no surprise to the rest of us. 2 cans of flat matte later, we went ahead with shooting and no one was allowed with 10 feet of the poor actress with a flame. And the actress lost 5 lbs of water weight from wearing a completely non-breathable garment under the lights. It was completely water strained in two days-;-) Cheers; Gwyn ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Dec 1996 11:15:31 -0800 From: Gwyn Carnegie Subject: Re: AUTHENTIC COSTUME/MOVIES, ETC. At 08:08 AM 12/22/96 -0500, Nancy wrote: > Being an antique clothing >collector and preservationist, I cringe at the thought of GENUINE garments >being used in a period piece. Also present were representatives of The Disney > Channel, seeking original garments (c. 1860s) for wear in whatever it was they >were filming...some historical piece. Hi Nancy & everyone; I hate to say it, but it happens all the time in Hollywood. One of the worst offenders is a costume designer that most of us highly respect. James Acheson (The Last Emporer, Dangerous Liaisions, Time Bandits,Brazil, Highlander, Frankenstien, Restorarion, etc...) came to my school regularily to speak (so did Bob Mackie & Nolan Miller) on costume design related issues. I remember we touched on this topic in reference to Dangerous Liaisions. He designed that whole production in less than 6 weeks. His major complaint was that he had to use laces throghtout the production which were mostly mid 19th century original pieces. He wanted to spend more time shopping dealers so he could have used late 18th c. originals. It's funny that you mention Disney. They are the worst when it comes to this sort of stuff. Among the reenactors/collectors in the LA area- it was sort of a running joke that you had to get to the Pasadena City College Attic Swap very early before the Disney buyers came through......:-) >These costumes are irreplaceable! What purpose does it serve the production >company to use originals--why not re-create? And just what happens to these >garments after filming (when they're probably covered with make-up, >perspiration, etc.)? Because it is often much cheaper to buy an original bedhanging from the 17th c. and cut it up for a production than to have it completely made from the ground up (especialy if you are a union shop). There are now dealers who find out which film projects are going into production and begin "the buying season" so that they my sell these pieces in lots to the film companies. The great thing about restoration is that Acheson mostly used custom made silks from India insted of the going to buyers. The embrioderies were also produced over seas. It was an incredibly rich production. I'd like to Hollywood do more of this sort of sourcing. Cheers; Gwyn Carnegie ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Dec 1996 13:57:40 -0800 From: Minoti Pakrasi Subject: 18th-19th century Indian and British textiles Hello H-Costumers-- I am researching, with an eye to a doctoral dissertation, Indian textile design in the late 18th and 19th centuries and Indian textiles of that period (the heyday of the Raj) in Britain -- aestheic reception of, influence on British manufacture, use of Indian textiles, the effect of the Industrial Revolution on the Indian textile industry and trade.... I'm an art historian with a library science degree and have little knowledge of costumes. I'm hoping some of you good folks might share any experience you have had with fabric from my area of research -- the kinds of fabrics used, what they were used for (eg. clothing/decoration/furnishings), any particular fabric pattern favored over others, the limitations of certain textiles &/or designs vs. the versatility of others. Having shifted gears from the study of classical antiquity to 19th century textiles, I'm very new to this topic and would appreciate any information anyone would like to share. I hope I'm not being too general in my request and would prefer to receive replies offlist. Many thanks in advance for your help. Minoti ---------------------------------- Minoti Pakrasi Stanford University Museum of Art Stanford, CA 94305 mpakrsi@leland.stanford.edu ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Dec 1996 17:50:10 -0500 From: Kathleen Songal Subject: Coordination vs. color combinations After reading a number of posts on this subject, I was telling my husband too bad he did not live back in the in the days before color coordination had become popular because he would have fit right in. This brought to mind several questions, however. Weren't certain color "combinations" more popular than others? Weren't certain color combinations considered in poor taste? I'll put this in the timeframe of 1800-1850 (pre-Worth' influence). Kathy Songal ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Dec 1996 18:11:02 EST From: Teri Simonds Subject: Victorian/Edwardian dress/hair Hi, all! Thanks for the all information that you provided in answer to my questions about dress and hairstyles. I've been head-down trying to get 20 products released (done!), moving offices (still working on it), and getting ready to move into a vintage (1903) house. I can't wait 'til it's all done so I can start researching. I'm hoping that the local museum will let me focus my volunteering in the costume arena; that should open up access to some resources. Happy holidays! Teri S. teri_simonds@sterling.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Dec 1996 15:45:00 -0800 From: "J.G." Subject: me and costuming HI my name is Sussan, I have been suscribged to this list for 2 months now and get between 20 and 50 messages a day from the list this i do not mind... however,, I read or rather skim through all of them and lately i hear allot of "dont write unless you know everything" So when i joined this list is was because I am part of a renasaunce re enactment group here in CA called Adria and I was having problems finding information on costuming from the time 1150-1550 AD (the time period we play our game in) So I am now almost afraid to write with any questions for fear of being stomped on for either asking a general question or for not knowing anything... Question: is this list for those who know it all and just want to brag about their wealth of knowledge or is it also for ppl interested in history but do not have businesses or degrees in costuming??? well I guess i really havesnt seen much on any thing other than time periods past 1600's except the coathardi thinds that i enjoyed greatly... (please excuse my spelling...) so if anyone wishes to share with me about anything in the 1150-1550 time period please write. thank you for your time... Sussan ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Oct 1996 17:30:43 -0700 From: Margo Anderson Subject: Re: me and costuming At 03:45 PM 12/23/96 -0800, you wrote: lately i hear allot of "dont >write unless you know everything" I'm sorry you feel that way. I hope recent posts will make it clear to you that we want you to to give us enough information that we can give you good answers. So when i joined this list is was >because I am part of a renasaunce re enactment group here in CA called >Adria and I was having problems finding information on costuming from >the time 1150-1550 AD (the time period we play our game in) So I am now >almost afraid to write with any questions for fear of being stomped on >for either asking a general question or for not knowing anything... I understand how you feel. I have found that the better a costumer is, the more generous they are with advice and support. If anyone has stomped on you, I would bet that they're not as good as they want you to think. Attacking other people's work or knowledge to make yourself look better is the behaviour of a very insecure person. Believe me, I know this for a fact, and so do certain people on this list who remember when it was my favorite pastime. I got better, both at costuming and at manners, and let's hope they will too. >Question: is this list for those who know it all and just want to brag >about their wealth of knowledge or is it also for ppl interested in >history but do not have businesses or degrees in costuming??? Absolutely not!!! For one thing, it would be a pretty boring group. The questions are what keep us alive! Everytime I go to my reference library to check something for this list, it's a chance to stretch my own costuming knowledge a little more. (By the way, I've never taken a costume class, and my costume business is on hold till the kids are bigger). > >well I guess i really havesnt seen much on any thing other than time >periods past 1600's except the coathardi thinds that i enjoyed >greatly... I think one reason you're not seeing a lot of medieval costume information here is that those questions tend to be asked on rec.org.sca. Even if you're not interested in membership, it is a great source for information on the period. What exactly are you looking for? You know your time period, that's a great start. Are you looking for advice on drafting patterns? do you want ready-made patterns? Do you want links to medieval costume pages? Do you need to know what colors to use? Are you concerned with undergarments, headwear, hairstyles, or shoes? Do you want to make a comfortable, inexpensive garment you can wear camping and throw in the wash, or do you want to make a completely accurate, down to the hand turned buttons and linen not cotton thread re-creation? These are the kind of questions you need to ask us. If you give us informative questions, we'll do our best to give you good answers. By the way, I'm very intrigued with the idea of A Different Medieval Group in California. Can you give me more information? Margo Anderson > ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Oct 1996 17:38:34 -0700 From: Margo Anderson Subject: Re: Help with 1920's costume for Gobi desert paleontologists My husband is on a dinosaur mailing list which includes many people working for universities. I'll post this query to it, in the hope that some of them have dusty old photos on their office walls... It was refreshing, for a change, to have my husband open a message that was for me. We share a 'mailbox, and he's always complaing that I open his mail and it gets lost in the stack. Well, wouldn't YOU think that emails with subjects like "Feathers", "Bones", and "Holes in Frills" belonged to h-costume? Margo Anderson ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Dec 1996 17:42:28 -0800 From: Gwyn Carnegie Subject: 18th & 19th c. Indian dyes >I am researching, with an eye to a doctoral dissertation, Indian >textile design in the late 18th and 19th centuries and Indian textiles >of that period (the heyday of the Raj) in Britain -- aestheic >reception of, influence on British manufacture, use of Indian >textiles, the effect of the Industrial Revolution on the Indian >textile industry and trade.... Below are some sources which should be available through UC system. DISSERTATION Cairati, Kathryn Cotner. The evaluation of two methods to measure bacterial activity on fabrics. [Davis, Calif.] 1985. The above refernece is good for understanding the process of producing "Turkey Red". A good chemistry background helps. The referenece below are specific to Indian fabrics. One of them has information included on tariff journals from 1842 concerning Indian imports going back to "mother England". I just can't remember which one;-) Gokhale, S. V. Cotton piece dyeing. S. V. Gokhale, R. C. Shah. Ahmedabad, India, Ahmedabad Textile Industry's Research Association, 1974. Series title: ATIRA silver jubilee monographs. Pettit, Florence Harvey. America's indigo blues; resist-printed and dyed textiles of the eighteenth century, by Florence H. Pettit. With 106 photos., 8 color plates, and 44 woodcuts, engravings, and drawings. New York, Hastings House [1974]. This Bibliography has also helped me in a pinch ......... Lawrie, L. G. (Leslie Gordon) A bibliography of dyeing and textile printing, comprising a list of books from the sixteenth century to the present time (1946) London, Chapman & Hall, 1949. Hope this helps . I have additional resources on 18th & 19th c. dye manuals but the are american in origin. Cheers; Gwyn Carnegie ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Dec 1996 22:01:29 -0500 From: Morghana@AOL.COM Subject: Re: me and costuming In a message dated 96-12-23 20:52:34 EST, wander@HOOKED.NET (Margo Anderson) writes: << I think one reason you're not seeing a lot of medieval costume information here is that those questions tend to be asked on rec.org.sca. Even if you're not interested in membership, it is a great source for information on the period. >> PMFJI, but I think one reason that a lot of SCA questions (at least the basic kind, that I assume this lady was asking, albeit indirectly) get kind of an indifferent or somewhat frosty response on this list. I've seen messages that seemed to say (at least to me), "If you're in SCA, go ask them...." This makes me sad. I've learned a *lot* from this list. I'd like to be able to contribute, if that opportunity ever presents itself. My personal interest does focus on SCA events and in a peripheral way costuming for and around Renaissance Faires. . The *read between the lines* attitude I sometimes feel from some of the responses here is that since I'm not a *serious* costumer (whatever that is) or someone involved in graduate-level research, I better just read and listen ....... I'm *not* slamming anyone. I understand that if you've done a masterpiece or three it might get real old, real fast, to answer what seem to be an endless stream of newbies who ask the same very basic things..... but we all start somewhere. And if my *dumb* question makes you roll your eyes and gnash your teeth, please just delete me, and maybe someone who *hasn't* yet had it up to here with that kind of question can give me the answer that lets me go to that next step.......... With all due respect, I wish everyone on this list a most joyous holiday! ------------------------------ End of H-COSTUME Digest - 22 Dec 1996 to 23 Dec 1996 **************************************************** From ???@??? Fri Dec 27 18:59:27 1996 Received: from brownvm.brown.edu by mail.math.TU-Berlin.DE with SMTP id AA02408 (5.67b8/IDA-1.5 for ); Wed, 25 Dec 1996 06:02:06 +0100 Message-Id: <199612250502.AA02408@mail.math.TU-Berlin.DE> Received: from BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU by BROWNVM.brown.edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with BSMTP id 1885; Wed, 25 Dec 96 00:00:50 EST Received: from BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU (NJE origin LISTSERV@BROWNVM) by BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 6457; Wed, 25 Dec 1996 00:00:48 -0500 Date: Wed, 25 Dec 1996 00:00:44 -0500 Reply-To: Historic Costume List Sender: Historic Costume List From: Automatic digest processor Subject: H-COSTUME Digest - 23 Dec 1996 to 24 Dec 1996 To: Recipients of H-COSTUME digests There are 15 messages totalling 695 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. COSTUMING-STRIVING FOR AUTHENTICITY 2. Help with 1920's costume for Gobi desert paleontologists 3. me and costuming (2) 4. The Art of the Stitch 5. PROPER H-COSTUME ETIQUETTE & AUTHENTICITY (2) 6. Pitfalls of Using Portraiture for Reproduction Clothing & MOVEMENT 7. 18TH CENTURY MOVEMENTS, MANNERS & COSMETICS HAND-OUT 8. COSTUME-STRIVING FOR AUTHENTICITY 9. Movies 10. costumers and directors 11. rec.org.sca (was Re: me and costuming) 12. H-COSTUME Digest - 22 Dec 1996 to 23 Dec 1996 13. Costume Software ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 23 Dec 1996 22:45:05 -0800 From: don and carolyn richardson Subject: Re: COSTUMING-STRIVING FOR AUTHENTICITY Nancy Saputo wrote: > My initial thoughts are that this is dependent upon budget and caliber of > costumer (and, perhaps, during which decade the movie was filmed)? There is > so much written and pictorial information available re costume--why can't it > be duplicated on the silver screen? My costume bible and one of my good friends, Mela Hoyt-Heydan, once gave a talk on this at UCLA for a cotuming forum. Her belief is that while this may be unintentional some times, most of the time it's completely deliberate so that the movie looks "right" to the modern audience. Someone mentioned in another note somethinga about the "modern aesthetic" and that's what she's driving at. The director/art director/costume designer collaborate but they will tend to put modern touches into an otherwise period movie so that the modern audiences who watch it don't think it's weird-looking. One good example of this is all the Cleopatra movies. _Hollywood and History_, that book put out by the LA County museum for an exhibit, compares all three versions side by side (Theda Bara in 1917, Claudette Colbert in the 40's, and Liz Taylor in the 60's) and makes the comment that "each production touti8ng its sets as being highly authentic...They had exotic, stylized costumes of varying degrees of accuracy, and the hair and makeup...were suited to the stars' image." What happens to the vintage costumes after the movie is made? If they aren't completely trashed they go into Wardrobe to be used again. I took a tour of Sony's wardrobe department 2 years ago at Costume College and they had beautiful racks of vintage clothes, many of which they had used on the Winona Ryder version of "Little Women" and "The Age of Innocence". It just killed me to think of some of those dresses being used again - one in particular which was used in Little Woman was seen on screen all of about 5 seconds and was in excellent condition - sort of a soft seafoam green. But the really spectacular thing about it was the decoration on the yoke collar - thousands of tiny French knots forming a design of ovals about 1x2 inches and a scallop around the entire yoke - and this was a largish dress (it's worn by the aunt in the movie and she was not a small woman). Carolyn ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Dec 1996 22:52:07 -0800 From: don and carolyn richardson Subject: Re: Help with 1920's costume for Gobi desert paleontologists Kay Lancaster wrote: > If we go with something like skirts and blouses, I can probably sew > a couple of outfits we can share -- but I need a starting point for > dressing 25-60 yr old American women on a desert dig in China. > If you think trousers would be ok, dare we make do with off-the-shelf > khakis? I would suggest looking at some of the books put out by Richard and Mary Leakey on their digs for hominid fossils in Africa. They started these digs in the early 30s and Mary was the primary explorer. I've seen many pictures of her from this period (and yes, she is wearing trousers - think Banana Republic). But this may be a good starting point for what the average female archeologist would wear on a dig in the desert - Olduvai Gorge was hardly an inviting place. Carolyn ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Dec 1996 09:30:00 GMT From: "Chandler, Sally A." Subject: Re: me and costuming Good for you, Margo - I quite agree. By the way - what is rec.org.sca? Sally Ann ---------- From: Margo Anderson To: Multiple recipients of list H-COSTUME Subject: Re: me and costuming Date: 23 October 1996 17:30 At 03:45 PM 12/23/96 -0800, you wrote: lately i hear allot of "dont >write unless you know everything" I'm sorry you feel that way. I hope recent posts will make it clear to you that we want you to to give us enough information that we can give you good answers. So when i joined this list is was >because I am part of a renasaunce re enactment group here in CA called >Adria and I was having problems finding information on costuming from >the time 1150-1550 AD (the time period we play our game in) So I am now >almost afraid to write with any questions for fear of being stomped on >for either asking a general question or for not knowing anything... I understand how you feel. I have found that the better a costumer is, the more generous they are with advice and support. If anyone has stomped on you, I would bet that they're not as good as they want you to think. Attacking other people's work or knowledge to make yourself look better is the behaviour of a very insecure person. Believe me, I know this for a fact, and so do certain people on this list who remember when it was my favorite pastime. I got better, both at costuming and at manners, and let's hope they will too. >Question: is this list for those who know it all and just want to brag >about their wealth of knowledge or is it also for ppl interested in >history but do not have businesses or degrees in costuming??? Absolutely not!!! For one thing, it would be a pretty boring group. The questions are what keep us alive! Everytime I go to my reference library to check something for this list, it's a chance to stretch my own costuming knowledge a little more. (By the way, I've never taken a costume class, and my costume business is on hold till the kids are bigger). > >well I guess i really havesnt seen much on any thing other than time >periods past 1600's except the coathardi thinds that i enjoyed >greatly... I think one reason you're not seeing a lot of medieval costume information here is that those questions tend to be asked on rec.org.sca. Even if you're not interested in membership, it is a great source for information on the period. What exactly are you looking for? You know your time period, that's a great start. Are you looking for advice on drafting patterns? do you want ready-made patterns? Do you want links to medieval costume pages? Do you need to know what colors to use? Are you concerned with undergarments, headwear, hairstyles, or shoes? Do you want to make a comfortable, inexpensive garment you can wear camping and throw in the wash, or do you want to make a completely accurate, down to the hand turned buttons and linen not cotton thread re-creation? These are the kind of questions you need to ask us. If you give us informative questions, we'll do our best to give you good answers. By the way, I'm very intrigued with the idea of A Different Medieval Group in California. Can you give me more information? Margo Anderson > ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Dec 1996 09:35:00 GMT From: "Chandler, Sally A." Subject: Re: me and costuming Since I'm not in the SCA and am British I obviously don't understand the politics of the situation and so don't 'read between the lines'. If I have the time I'll respond to general questions on the list. If I don't, sometimes people come out and ask directly. That's great. When I no longer have the time or resources I shall politely decline. I must say, though, I do get miffed when I put effort into responding to questions and requests for help and am not acknowledged or thanked. Am I being too pedantic and British? Best wishes, Sally Ann ---------- From: Morghana To: Multiple recipients of list H-COSTUME Subject: Re: me and costuming Date: 23 December 1996 22:01 In a message dated 96-12-23 20:52:34 EST, wander@HOOKED.NET (Margo Anderson) writes: << I think one reason you're not seeing a lot of medieval costume information here is that those questions tend to be asked on rec.org.sca. Even if you're not interested in membership, it is a great source for information on the period. >> PMFJI, but I think one reason that a lot of SCA questions (at least the basic kind, that I assume this lady was asking, albeit indirectly) get kind of an indifferent or somewhat frosty response on this list. I've seen messages that seemed to say (at least to me), "If you're in SCA, go ask them...." This makes me sad. I've learned a *lot* from this list. I'd like to be able to contribute, if that opportunity ever presents itself. My personal interest does focus on SCA events and in a peripheral way costuming for and around Renaissance Faires. . The *read between the lines* attitude I sometimes feel from some of the responses here is that since I'm not a *serious* costumer (whatever that is) or someone involved in graduate-level research, I better just read and listen ....... I'm *not* slamming anyone. I understand that if you've done a masterpiece or three it might get real old, real fast, to answer what seem to be an endless stream of newbies who ask the same very basic things..... but we all start somewhere. And if my *dumb* question makes you roll your eyes and gnash your teeth, please just delete me, and maybe someone who *hasn't* yet had it up to here with that kind of question can give me the answer that lets me go to that next step.......... With all due respect, I wish everyone on this list a most joyous holiday! ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Dec 1996 09:57:00 GMT From: "Chandler, Sally A." Subject: The Art of the Stitch For those of you with the interest or inclination to travel to London - the Victoria and Albert Museum is running some super courses in the new year. Unfortunately, many run on a series of weekdays. However, the Art of the Stitch is a day course on Friday 11th April on embroidery, particularly Australian Quilts. The V & A can be contacted on 0044 171-938 8638 Best wishes, Sally Ann ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Dec 1996 06:55:36 -0500 From: Nancy Saputo Subject: PROPER H-COSTUME ETIQUETTE & AUTHENTICITY Sally Ann recently wrote: << I must say, though, I do get miffed when I put effort into responding to questions and requests for help and am not acknowledged or thanked. Am I being too pedantic and British? ******************************************************* 1st: Thank you, Sally Ann, for my word of the day; i.e., "pedantic"! I have always admired the English for their prolific use of adjectives and adverbs! 2nd: After being subscribed for a week, I can certainly understand how one could be intimidated by participating on this list. One gets the general notion that at times, less said is better. To those subscribers who have responded to *my* queries, I thank you for your efforts! But please advise: Should I post thank-you's to every response I receive (this is asked in earnest, with no sarcasm intended)? Or should the appreciation be relayed via private e-mail? 3rd: I have immensely enjoyed the responses re authenticity in costuming on the screen, stage, etc. "Modern-day" (be it the moderns of today or centuries back) interpretation of previous eras is a titillating topic (remembering the mention of bouffant hairdos for the cowboys in 1960s television ). Obviously, the invention of the camera (be it still or moving) allows us to document each generation's interpretation. And, I suppose, prior to that paintings and books were relied upon? (But can't paintings be misleading, as artists may incorporate their individual "styles"?) Claudia Kidwell (Curator, Costume Collection, Natl. Museum of Am. History) gave an excellent presentation at a seminar in Virginia recently, entitled: "Stepping Out of a Painting: The Pitfalls of Using Portraiture for Reproduction Clothing". In essence, she states that a painting is an "invented image" by the artist...very often its purpose is to present and elevate a person in such a way as to achieve a timeless quality. And just "what" societal influences affect our interpretation? One can certainly glean much infomation about a generation by the way THAT GENERATION interpretes the past! Wish You All A Lovely Holiday :-) Nancy Saputo ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Dec 1996 07:53:04 -0500 From: J&B Subject: Re: PROPER H-COSTUME ETIQUETTE & AUTHENTICITY Nancy Saputo wrote: Obviously, the invention of the camera (be it still or moving) > allows us to document each generation's interpretation. And, I suppose, > prior to that paintings and books were relied upon? (But can't paintings be > misleading, as artists may incorporate their individual "styles"?) > > Claudia Kidwell (Curator, Costume Collection, Natl. Museum of Am. History) > gave an excellent presentation at a seminar in Virginia recently, entitled: > "Stepping Out of a Painting: The Pitfalls of Using Portraiture for > Reproduction Clothing". In essence, she states that a painting is an > "invented image" by the artist...very often its purpose is to present and > elevate a person in such a way as to achieve a timeless quality. > > And just "what" societal influences affect our interpretation? One can > certainly glean much infomation about a generation by the way THAT GENERATION > interpretes the past! > > Wish You All A Lovely Holiday :-) > > Nancy Saputo Nancy- It's too bad I missed Clausia's Seminar. Yes, it's important to be able to "read" the context of our sources; i.e., knowing the conventions that apply to 16th c portraiture when using it as a costume source. More than "individual styles", portraits of course adhere to a different set of rules . . . . and artists of course, can paint whatever they damn well please! It seems you can never know too much about a period when constructing the clothing of that era. There are movies in which I've seen beautiful period clothing from exactly the period of the movie used in the wrong social situation - evening dresses worn during the day, for example. It is fascinating to set the prevailing silhouette or skirt length, or use of texture into a larger aesthetic setting of a period. Fascinating - but a hell of a lot of work and research! -All the best for the holidays - Bob Skiba ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Dec 1996 09:42:03 -0500 From: Nancy Saputo Subject: Pitfalls of Using Portraiture for Reproduction Clothing & MOVEMENT Dawn Vukson-Van Beek writes: << I would be most interested in hearing more from Ms. Kidwell. It is one of my concerns in doing reproduction costume. I am primarily a Renaissance costumer and given the few extant examples.... Ah, well. I would love to hear this presentation or have discussion regarding this very relevant topic. ************************************************************************* Claudia Kidwell gave this presentation at "What Shall I Wear? Dressing For a Ball 1770-1790", held at Gadsby's Tavern Museum in Alexandria, VA, on Oct. 19, 1996 (a joint venture between Gadsby's and Sally Queen and Associates, Arlington, VA). I found it a most excellent seminar. As the hand-out does not provide any "selected readings", I am unable to direct you further. Also present was Alicia Annas (Prof. and Chair of the Dept. of Drama at San Diego State Univ.). She is a costume designer, historian, author, and specialist in MOVEMENT in period clothing. Again, another fascinating topic! It is one matter to view a historic costume...but hand in hand with this must be the proper MOVEMENT of carriage, feet, head, arms, etc. Stays, corsets, panniers, farthingales, sleeve placement-- each one in itself induced a specific movement from the wearer. Whether standing, sitting, walking, dancing, ascending/descending stairs. To achieve a historically-accurate "mobile" representation, the foundations of costume must be considered. I do have a hand-out for selected readings in this regard, if anyone would care to receive it. Nancy Saputo ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Dec 1996 12:24:23 -0500 From: Nancy Saputo Subject: 18TH CENTURY MOVEMENTS, MANNERS & COSMETICS HAND-OUT As I have already received requests for Alicia Annas's handout, I have typed it below. As I mentioned previously Sally Queen and Associates, Arlington, VA, and Gadsby's Tavern Museum sponsored this seminar. If I receive more encouragement, I will let Sally know there is much interest in her presenting similar seminars. (For those who don't know Sally, she was the Manager of the Costume Program at The Colonial Williamsburg Foundation, and is a national and regional Board Member of the Costume Society of America. She currently specializes in coordinating workshops, seminars, and cultural tours on contemporary as well as historical clothing and textiles.) Nancy Saputo ****************************************************************************** ************** Alicia Annas (Prof. and Chair of the Dept. of Drama at San Diego State Univ.) Hand-out for "WHAT SHALL I WEAR/ DRESSING FOR A BALL 1770-1790" Gadsby's Tavern Museum/Alexandria, VA Oct. 19, 1996 PRIMARY SOURCES: Chesterfield, Philip Dormer Stanhope. "Letters To His Son on the Fine Art of Becoming a Man of the World and a Gentleman". London, 1774. Hogarth, William. "The Analysis of Beauty". London: J. Reeves, 1753. Nivelon, F. "The Rudiments of Genteel Behavior". London, 1737. Petrie, A. "The Polite Academy: Or School of Behaviour for Young Gentlemen and Ladies". 8th ed., London: 178--. (1st edition: 1762) Tomlinson, Kellom. "The Art of Dancing." London, 1735. Towle, Matthew. "The Young Gentleman and Lady's Private Tutor." Oxford, 1770. SECONDARY SOURCES: Annas, Alicia M. "The Elegant Art of Movement." "An Elegant Art: Fashion and Fantasy in the Eighteenth Century". New York: Harry N. Abrams, 1983. (Emphasizes 18th c. attitudes expressed through manners and movement with specific directions taken from primary sources.) Aresty, Esther B. "The Best Behavior: The Course of Good Manners From Antiquity to the Present as Seen Through Courtesy and Etiquette Books". New York: Simon & Schuster, 1970. (Contains good general overview of many periods, including 18th c. and an excellent bibliography of period etiquette books.) Wildeblood, Joan. "The Polite World: A Guide to English Manners and Deportment". Rev. ed. London: Davis-Poynter, 1973. (Excellent overview of medieval through 1920's attitudes and specific directions for manners and movement taken from primary sources.) COSMETICS: Primary Sources: Le Camus, Antoine. "Abdeker: or, The Art of Preserving Beauty". A. Millar, 1754. Stewart, James. "Plocacosmos: or the Art of Hairdressing". London, 1782. (Contains a section on 18th c. cosmetics at the end.) Secondary Sources: Angeloglou, Maggie. "A History of Makeup". New York: Macmillan, 1970. Corson, Richard. "Fashions in Makeup". New York: Universe Books, 1972. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Dec 1996 14:20:48 -0500 From: Sharon and/or Mikie Subject: COSTUME-STRIVING FOR AUTHENTICITY > >Ah, I'm beginning to understand. The keyword here is DIRECTOR. And >costumers must follow the director's orders? And there are conscientious >directors, and those just out to make a buck (or a personal statement)? > Hello again There are directors who are VERY concientious about this. IT all depends on their vision, and whether they are out to make the film an accurate view of the period, or if they are simply telling a story which takes place in that period where some of the little details will not be as important. And is is not just the directors. The designers play a big role in this, however, it is in consultation with the director. You will find that a film or theatrical piece that is very accurate historically will also be very accurate costuming wise. That is because the purpose of the film is not only to entertain, but properly represent a historical event. (This is not always the case, just the norm)I don't have a problem if I see a film with a few small details which are wrong, but when I see something which is obviously very poorly researched, or if they have put one character in a totally different period than the others... Sharon ***************************** * * * DON'T MESS WITH TECHIES - * * * * THEY ALL CARRY KNIVES * * * ***************************** ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Dec 1996 14:26:42 -0500 From: Sharon and/or Mikie Subject: Re: Movies > Some costume designers don't even sew that much - their skill is in >>drawing a design that someone else constructs. >> The majority of the fashion design majors can draw beautifully and >have never sewn prior to college. All the costume design (theatre) students >have sewn since they were at least six years old, but only two of them can >draw. Both groups take drawing and sewing classes together. The majority of >both groups want to design for the screen. > >These are your future designers. Makes you wonder, doesn't it. Quite true!! I know several people in both fields as well. However, at Ryerson, it is REQUIRED that you can sew, or at least know the basics. True that not all fashion designers know how, but I was happy to see that the fashion students must make each garment themselves. As for the costumers and designers for theatre...a lot of them do not know how to sew. At Ryerson we are strongly encouraged to take costuming courses to learn how to make the garments. Speaking as a cutter, I, personally, would rather have a designer who knows the basics of construction than an artist. As long as I can read the drawings and get the details I need, I don't care if the person is out of proportion, has no eyes, has circles for hands, or if the garment looks two dimensional in the picture...i'm not an art critic after all, and the designs are meant as a kind of blue print, not a work of art! Sharon ***************************** * * * DON'T MESS WITH TECHIES - * * * * THEY ALL CARRY KNIVES * * * ***************************** ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Dec 1996 14:36:50 -0500 From: Sharon and/or Mikie Subject: Re: costumers and directors As a freelance costumer >with a MFA in Costume Design and Costume Technology, I have to say that >MOST productions that I have been involved in or I have observed my >colleagues involvement in, have been COLLABORATIVE processes. That's the >whole beauty of theatre and creativity. You take the talents and gifts of >all persons involved and combine them into the magic of art. Yes, it is a >director's job to have a vision for the project but each designer (sets, >lights, costumes, sound) must also have a vision and hopefully through >clear communication and pre-production meetings, faxes, sketches, etc. each >of these visions come together into a view which complement each other as >well as support the overall premise of the piece. To say that costumers >just "follow the director's orders" is to limit their input and talent >(plus to imply that all directors are dictatorial ogre's on power trips!!) Thank you for actually writing this down in a coherant way!!! I can't explain this whole process to people who don't know the same theatrical lingo I use in less than 2000 words, so I didn't try to get to in depth. As far as it being a collaborative process, yes, this is true. However, if a cutter doesn't like the style of gown the designers and directors have chosen, he/she can't really say a lot about it - it's not really their place. If they don't like the way the designer wants it to close, or where the seams are running, well that's another story, and it totally within his/her boundries to discuss it with the designer. Sharon ***************************** * * * DON'T MESS WITH TECHIES - * * * * THEY ALL CARRY KNIVES * * * ***************************** ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Dec 1996 16:26:47 -0600 From: Hollie Hoffman Subject: rec.org.sca (was Re: me and costuming) At 09:30 12-24-96 GMT, Chandler, Sally A. wrote: > >By the way - what is rec.org.sca? > >Sally Ann rec.org.sca is the address of an SCA oriented newsgroup called the Rialto. If you have an Internet browser like Netscape or Explorer and are connected through a newsgroup server, you should be able to access it. If not, there is an e-mailing list version (digest form only) that you can subscribe to by sending a request to SCA-Request@mc.lcs.mit.edu, although the response won't be immediate. The archives can be found at http://www.pbm.com/~lindahl/rialto/rialto.html or ftp://www.pbm.com/pub/sca/rialto Hope that answers your question. Hollie Hoffman hhoffman@uwf.edu ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Dec 1996 19:22:54 -0800 From: David & Anita Pirkle Subject: Re: H-COSTUME Digest - 22 Dec 1996 to 23 Dec 1996 My husband has made plaster casts of faces and body parts, but doing your whole torso would be neither cheap nor fun, believe me! A less expensive alternative is to put on an old (disposable), long T-shirt and wrap over it (around your torso and up over your shoulders) with duct tape. After a couple layers, you cut it off up the back (or the front, if you're brave or trusting). Pull it off, duct tape over the seam, and stuff it with old sheets/blankets, such that it conforms to your shape. You can unstuff it for storing (more-or-less) flat, stick pins into it, cut and retape it if you lose weight, etc., so it's more versatile than a plaster cast, as well. My husband uses the bases of old barstool-height chairs (among other things!) as "stands" for his manikins/dummies. Anita > Date: Sun, 22 Dec 1996 23:58:31 -0800 > From: Alice Morgan > Subject: Re: Silhouette forms > > There is a technique involving plaster bandages > to create a form. This is probably what you are thinking about. > > It seems popular to promote this as a "cheap" way > to create a dress form, but the costs add up. > Last time I priced this, it was about $30 in plaster bandages > (plaster impregnated guaze), another $25 or so for the > expanding foam chemicals. and then misc other supplies. > more for a base, and misc tools. > > It helps to have a friend help you. its kinda messy. > Still it can produce a reasonable dress form. > if you are willing to spend a couple of weekends working on it. > > Alice > NELSON, Carolyn A. said something close to this: > > > > Forgive me if this appears twice. I tried to send it two days ago, but > > I never saw it show up in the digest, so I'm trying again. > > > > I have heard of a kit one can buy for making a custom form by wrapping > > the body with dampened strips of, uh, fiberglass? The strips harden > > within a few minutes, and can be cut up the front, back or side for easy > > removal from the body, leaving a near perfect form of the subject. I > > think it is the same prinicipal they now use for fiberglass casts (my 9 > > year old broke his arm last year). > > > > Does anyone on the list have any experience with one of these kits, > > and/or know how to order them? > > > > Thanks, > > > > Carolyn > > -- > Alice Morgan Spotted Dog Systems > ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Dec 1996 22:58:54 -0500 From: No Name Subject: Re: Costume Software Hi! I would have responded earlier to this subject, but with all the traditional last minute Christmas gift-making and Overnight mailing, well, you've probably all been there... Anyway ,to those interested in computer software, there are a number of options available, of course depending on money and your willingness to invest not only the money but the time necessary. In regards to patterning software there are a number of options available. The less expensive ones are more tailored to the "home-sewer" rather than the costumer who is interested in creating period garments. Not to say that you can not create a costume pattern from these programs. Basically they provide slopers . You can adapt the measurements, and you do have a limited toolbox to manipulate the patterns. I'd suggest checking out "Raymond's Sewing Software" @ http://www.hk.supernet/~rlowe/sew.html. He gives a brief description and review of some software packages. One of these might work for you. I've been lucky in that I work for a company that manufactures promotional costumes and that we have a computerized patterning system. And after being a theatrical cutter for the last number of years, let me tell you it has changed my life! With the software we have, I can either use a sloper, draft directly into the computer with flat patterning or I can digitize a existing pattern and then manipulate it. The toolbox is extensive. Basically I can do anything on the computer that I would do at the work table. But it so much cleaner and faster. I think the thing I missed the most was actually physically manipulating the patterns. But it's sort of an eye coordination thing and after a while you can train you eye to look at the pattern pieces on the screen. We then print the pieces on a plotter. I have experimented drafting period patterns from scratch, and was extremely success full. My next step is to learn about " Frame View", where you can import custom measurements into a pattern and the software adjusts the pattern within seconds. Think how fabulous for a huge period show or opera ! Anyway, this program is primarily written for the garment industry and the demands for costuming often run counter to that. For example, the software doesn't really let you have a curved dart, unless you know how to get around that( there is a way) . And yes, there other odd things. But check it out. They have a web site. http://www.padsystem.com Of course it isn't cheap. But worth looking into for a college with a healthy budget or a costume company! It's definitely a Great tool, but, of course, no substitute of pattern drafting knowledge. If anyone wants to know more, write me! Happy Holiday! Kij ------------------------------ End of H-COSTUME Digest - 23 Dec 1996 to 24 Dec 1996 **************************************************** From ???@??? Fri Dec 27 18:59:29 1996 Received: from brownvm.brown.edu by mail.math.TU-Berlin.DE with SMTP id AA04684 (5.67b8/IDA-1.5 for ); Thu, 26 Dec 1996 06:01:34 +0100 Message-Id: <199612260501.AA04684@mail.math.TU-Berlin.DE> Received: from BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU by BROWNVM.brown.edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with BSMTP id 3806; Thu, 26 Dec 96 00:00:15 EST Received: from BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU (NJE origin LISTSERV@BROWNVM) by BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 3219; Thu, 26 Dec 1996 00:00:14 -0500 Date: Thu, 26 Dec 1996 00:00:12 -0500 Reply-To: Historic Costume List Sender: Historic Costume List From: Automatic digest processor Subject: H-COSTUME Digest - 24 Dec 1996 to 25 Dec 1996 To: Recipients of H-COSTUME digests There are 14 messages totalling 456 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. cotehardie patterns---??? 2. me and costuming 3. Movie authenticity (2) 4. Movies 5. 6. COSTUME DESIGNERS & COSTUMERS (3) 7. jeweler-Pat Dolittle 8. MOVEMENT HAND-OUT 9. Costume Staff 10. COSTUME STAFF 11. Suspenders? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 24 Dec 1996 23:43:14 -0500 From: Northshield Folk Subject: Re: cotehardie patterns---??? MA>In a message dated 96-12-22 23:56:00 EST, you write: MA>> I have heard of references of a cotehardie as an "heirloom" being worn MA>> under the MA>> Spanish surcoat . MA>> MA>> Nancy MA>This is definitely something new to me. I am very much interested in the MA>references you know of pertaining to this matter. Was this a fashion for MA>older ladies? Are there any portraits depicting this combination of styles? MA>etc..... MA>Mazelle MA>Alysia Gabrielle de Fougeres MA>Barony of Grey Niche, Meridies The person who told me this said they found it in period writings, don't know about portraits. She is what I would consider a reliable source, but I don't see her around much anymore. Wish I had a better source, but it would be worth looking into. Nancy shadewescompany@on-ramp.com Glory,Magesty,Unity Warriors of the Northshield and the Known World ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Dec 1996 23:43:18 -0500 From: Northshield Folk Subject: Re: me and costuming WA>At 03:45 PM 12/23/96 -0800, you wrote: WA> lately i hear allot of "dont WA>>write unless you know everything" This is supposed to be a forum for exchange of info and thought correct? If it isn't I must have subscribed to the wrong list. WA> So when i joined this list is was WA>>because I am part of a renasaunce re enactment group here in CA called WA>>Adria and I was having problems finding information on costuming from WA>>the time 1150-1550 AD (the time period we play our game in) So I am now WA>>almost afraid to write with any questions for fear of being stomped on WA>>for either asking a general question or for not knowing anything... I hope you would be able to learn and get info. Yes, the SCA does focus on this time period and they are very helpful. They are honerable and would not "slam" someone for being new and wishing to learn. I would hope that this list would provide a forum for that era also. WA>>Question: is this list for those who know it all and just want to brag WA>>about their wealth of knowledge or is it also for ppl interested in WA>>history but do not have businesses or degrees in costuming??? I would hope not, I tire easily of self important bragging. BTW: I have seen some far better examples of accurate, well made medieval clothing by "amatures" in the SCA than I have seen from some students who have graduated from some rather well thought of schools. WA>>well I guess i really havesnt seen much on any thing other than time WA>>periods past 1600's except the coathardi thinds that i enjoyed WA>>greatly... Please ask away, but detailed questions about a specific item are much easier to answer than a general question about a time period. I could ramble for hours with all the trivial facts I know about Medieval clothing. I want to learn what others have to offer, there are time periods that I do not have a great deal of knowledge of and wish to know more. In turn I am willing to offer what I have already learned in my studies. Nancy Laughlin-Foust Gothica Studios Costume Director Augustana College shadewescompany@on-ramp.com Glory,Magesty,Unity Warriors of the Northshield and the Known World ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Dec 1996 09:12:09 -0600 From: "Louis E. Bittrich" Subject: Re: Movie authenticity >At 09:31 AM 10/22/96 -0700, Margo Anderson wrote: > > >As to why films aren't made with more stringent attention to period, Why >should they be? Costume design is an art, and as such, its mission is to >serve the telling of the story, not to laboriously reproduce history in >order to educate. We have museums and reenactors for that purpose. > > Isn't there enough room for both? > Very sensible way of sorting out two separate areas that are often confused on this list: costume design and historical accuracy. Thanks. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Dec 1996 11:11:48 -0500 From: Allison Elizabeth Achauer Subject: Re: Movies In actuality, costume renderings are more than just a blue print for the shop. The costume designer creates the rendering as a way of explaining to the director what the costumes are going to look like. Since most directors are relatively inexperienced in mentally translating a drawing of a costume into what it will look like on stage, the rendering must assist in creating the entire mood and effect the costume will have. A poorly done rendering means, to the director, a poorly done costume. The costume designer wants to be able to "sell" his or her ideas to the director and should therefore be able to present them well. For this reason there are many people who work as sketch artists for costume designers, both in theatre and in film. Obviously the ideal is to be both a gifted artist and knowledgable in construction, but to be fair, the costume designer is simply responsible for the design and the shop is responsible for turning that design into a finished costume. Designers just vary in the degree of control they take over the construction aspect. There are those who know exactly how they want the costume built and will keep a close eye on it, and those that just hand off a vague sketch to a top-notch shop like Barbara Matera and assume that it will come out lovely and just like the design. Personally, I like to have a very clear idea of how a costume I have designed will be constructed, but I know that I do not speak for all designers. I also put a great deal of time into agonizing over the look of my renderings (partly because they also help you get future jobs!). Allison Achauer ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Dec 1996 09:55:48 PST From: H-Costume List Alias On Deepcat Subject: SyRilla@AOL.COM writes: > I am having trouble finding information on what people of the 1500's thought > that faires, and other forest folk looked like. Thank you . > Kimberly@aol.com Now would be a good time to plug F-costume, but I'll make it a brief summary. F-costume is, for all intensive purposes, a fantasy-costume list. Any costume related discussion will do. We generally discuss how to build costumes, have a sort of marketplace bit going (read: people offer services), and other stuff. The list is fairly low traffic. To subscribe, send the following to majordomo@world.std.com: subscribe f-costume end Or, if you want the digest version: subscribe f-costume-digest end (digest comes in maybe once a week if there's any traffic on the list) Anywho, Kimberly, I've forwarded your message over there already. Hopefully, you should get a few answers shortly. --- Dennis Allen Carr KE6ISF outlander!ke6isf@ccss.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Dec 1996 15:38:07 -0500 From: Nancy Saputo Subject: COSTUME DESIGNERS & COSTUMERS In reply to Allison Achauer: <<...there are many people who work as sketch artists for costume designers... <<...the costume designer is simply responsible for the design and the shop is responsible for turning that design into a finished costume. ************************************************************************* Well, I'm trying hard to understand how this all works. There can be a COSTUME DESIGNER who creates on *paper* the appropriate design. And then the COSTUMER constructs the design out of the appropriate material. Therefore, there are two people involved in the creative process, right? (Aside from the Director.) SKETCH ARTISTS? And an artist to draw for the designer who then has the costumer construct? Do challenges ever come up where the designer designs something that would be extremely difficult to construct? (I have neither drawing nor sewing talent...bear with me, please.) If TWO people are involved in this creative venture, I would imagine there are times when one starts pulling out their hair? Is there ever a designer and costumer in ONE individual? Re the Oscars: So when an individual wins this prestigious award, it's really the DESIGNER rather than the COSTUMER? Given the constrictions of various elements of costume (bodices and sleeve placement, for example), would a DESIGNER perhaps change the construction so as to allow an actor more freedom of movement for a particular role....thereby, eliminating some historical accuracy? Mind you, I'm not preaching here that EVERY movie, play, etc., should be historically accurate in regard to costume. Most people wouldn't know the difference! I'm just curious about the whole process. Nancy Saputo ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Dec 1996 15:40:08 -0500 From: Lisa Bauer Subject: jeweler-Pat Dolittle I know this isn't entirely h-costume related, but you guys seem to know everything. I am looking for jeweler Pat Dolittle who was based in Aptos, California and sold her wares at local art festivals. I received a ring she designed, and want to have it reworked. To save space, please answer off list. Thank you, Lisa ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Dec 1996 16:26:08 -0500 From: Nancy Saputo Subject: MOVEMENT HAND-OUT Yikes! Am I getting requests for this hand-out! Please be aware that I POSTED the hand-out 12/24 under the subject heading: 18TH CENTURY MOVEMENT, MANNERS & COSMETICS HAND-OUT Nancy Saputo ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Dec 1996 17:35:21 -0500 From: "Penny E. Ladnier" Subject: Re: COSTUME DESIGNERS & COSTUMERS The designer is the one who decides the total look of the movie, color theme, silhouette, fabrics, everything. This person is the one who wins the oscar. The designer is also the one who is responsible for the principal characters costumes. I have worked on four different movies and all seem pretty consistent in this. But there are several different fields under the designer. There are designers for extras (men and women), researchers, dressers, cutters, drapers, etc... My guess it is like any design house, there are alot of behind the scenes people. Most of the films shot in Richmond (we average 4-6 a year), carry a design crew of about 6-10 people. Then they hire locals to do the sewing. An interesting note...in my costume design classes, we have two graduate students that are getting their degree as directors. It is required that they take these classes. At the end of the semester, one of them said, "Now I know why we had to take design classes, for we have to make sure the sets are built to accomadate the dresses." He was referring to court dresses width. I think it is good to have classes with these students because you see their perspective and they see yours. We spend a lot of time in our classes justifying our costume designs to the professor. The purpose of this, is because this is what we have to do for the director. At the end of the semester, we do have to justify our designs with the director. We have been told from the beginning, never get to attached to a certain look/design. You have to be very open minded with your designs, because the director can change them in a minute. You have to keep an alterative design always in mind. Its like staying one step ahead of him/her. Merry Christmas from Richmond, Penny Penny E. Ladnier, Virginia Commonwealth University s0peladn@erols.com http://www.geocities.com/BourbonStreet/2157 member: Costume Society of America American Fashion Council Association for Information Systems Professionals ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Dec 1996 17:55:03 -0500 From: No Name Subject: Re: Movie authenticity In a message dated 12/25/96 7:18:54 AM, bittrich@TEXAS.NET (Louis E. Bittrich) wrote: << Very sensible way of sorting out two separate areas that are often confused on this list: costume design and historical accuracy. Thanks. >> I totally agree with you there, Louis. In fact, while I applaud the efforts for historical accuracy, I also enjoy watching older movies and seeing that melding of what was then a contemporary silhouette with period costume. Claudette Colbert in a bias -cut Cleopatra costume, 1940's shoulder pads in a bustle gown, Bouffant hairdos and black eye liner in a 60's musical, or even further back to theatrical costumes of the 1890's , where you have an obviously corseted figure under a classical Greek tunic. I think it's an interesting window into time and fashion. Speaking of which, what do you folks think about the impact (if any) of the Evita movie on fashion, vintage clothes buying, etc.? Regards, Kij ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Dec 1996 18:37:17 -0500 From: Nancy Saputo Subject: COSTUME DESIGNERS & COSTUMERS Penny Ladnier writes: >>Most of the films shot...carry a design crew of about 6-10 people... >> then they hire locals to do the sewing. It certainly seems that that would put a time constraint on the sewers! And these sewers are the COSTUMERS? Can costumers be employed directly by the film company/stage company? Are you saying when films are shot on location, then "locals" are used to sew? Why not have the costumes already made and taken TO the location site? >> An interesting note...in my costume design classes, we have two graduate >> students that are getting their degree as directors. It is required that >> they take these classes...I think it is good to have classes with these students >>because you see their perspective and they see yours. I take it this hasn't always been the case. But it certainly makes sense. Seems to me a costume designer plays a VERY important part in the film's "total presence". >> We spend a lot of time in our classes justifying our costume designs to the >> professor. The purpose of this, is because this is what we have to do for >>the director. By "justifying," do you mean fabric, color, authenticity, etc? What else would be taken into account? I believe someone previously mentioned lighting? Nancy Saputo ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Dec 1996 15:42:58 -0800 From: "Carol E. Newby" Subject: Costume Staff When it comes to the folks who collaborate to get actors in films/theatre dressed, here's the list I have of the Costume Shop Staff. Designer - designs and sketches all costumes (including accessories, hairstyles, etc.) Assistant to the Designer - assists w/ research, swatches the renderings, shops, attends production meetings w/ director & design staff (costumes, lighting, etc), etc. Costume Shop Supervisor - runs the shop, hires staff, suppervises staff, orders equipment, keeps track of budget, etc. Cutter/Draper - develops patterns, cuts all fabrics, plans construction process, gives stitchers construction directions, etc. First Hand - cutter/draper's assistant Stitcher - assembles garments Craftsperson - plans construction process for accessories and costume props w/ Designer and carries the plans to completion. Dyer - dyes fabric before it is cut; dyes, paints, and distreses costumes after completion. Wardrobe Maintenance Supervisor - organizes and supervises costume changes, supervises dressers, etc. Dressers - assist actors w/ getting into costumes You would also have cobblers who make shoes, and milliners, wigmakers etc. These descriptons came from _The Costume Technician's Handbook_. Carol ~~~*~~~*~~~*~~~*~~~*~~~*~~~*~~~*~~~*~~~*~~~*~~~*~~~*~~~*~~~*~~~ Carol E. Newby Elspeth the Semstress of Dunkeld ladybug@falkor.neei.com http://www.neei.com/~ladybug "Unless you try to do something beyond what you have already mastered, you will never grow." ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Dec 1996 19:24:32 -0500 From: Nancy Saputo Subject: COSTUME STAFF Thank you, Carol, for posting the Costume Shop Staff. Not only do I understand now, but I can appreciate just how much goes into costuming for productions. Question: How long does it take to achieve the final product (i.e., costume) once the director gives the costume designer her/his "wants"? Say, for a film? I'm sure a lot depends on the number of characters involved. And when the director wants it, right?! Nancy ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Dec 1996 22:08:35 EST From: Maggie Pierce Subject: Suspenders? Ive can take suspenders back to 1610 but no further. The picture I have shows the "wranglers' in a bear/bull pit in their shirtsleeves, and H-type (as opposed to the Y-style) suspenders supporting their hose. Can anyone take this back any further? It's not a critical question, just something that's been bugging me. ------------------------------ End of H-COSTUME Digest - 24 Dec 1996 to 25 Dec 1996 **************************************************** From ???@??? Fri Dec 27 18:59:31 1996 Received: from brownvm.brown.edu by mail.math.TU-Berlin.DE with SMTP id AA06836 (5.67b8/IDA-1.5 for ); Fri, 27 Dec 1996 06:02:24 +0100 Message-Id: <199612270502.AA06836@mail.math.TU-Berlin.DE> Received: from BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU by BROWNVM.brown.edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with BSMTP id 4747; Fri, 27 Dec 96 00:01:02 EST Received: from BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU (NJE origin LISTSERV@BROWNVM) by BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 6073; Fri, 27 Dec 1996 00:01:00 -0500 Date: Fri, 27 Dec 1996 00:00:56 -0500 Reply-To: Historic Costume List Sender: Historic Costume List From: Automatic digest processor Subject: H-COSTUME Digest - 25 Dec 1996 to 26 Dec 1996 To: Recipients of H-COSTUME digests There are 22 messages totalling 835 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. THROUGH THE COSTUME DESIGNER'S EYES 2. Unsubscribe 3. inane posts that don't really ask anything 4. Suspenders? (4) 5. Authenticity in movies 6. COSTUME DESIGNERS & COSTUMERS (2) 7. Costume Staff 8. movie costumes (2) 9. Fairy costumes 10. queen margot costumes (2) 11. cotehardie/spanish surcote 12. SCA as resource 13. PROPER H-COSTUME ETIQUETTE & AUTHENTICITY 14. COSTUMING-STRIVING FOR AUTHENTICITY (2) 15. 1840's bodice ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 26 Dec 1996 09:15:21 -0500 From: Nancy Saputo Subject: THROUGH THE COSTUME DESIGNER'S EYES I thank you all for the plethora of information received in regard to costume designing. You are wonderful teachers! Some 20 years ago, I became obsessed with photography and was able to put together quite a system. I found myself observing how cinematographers "shot" their work (be it television, movie, etc.). When they used a wide-angle lense, close-up, normal, etc.--how THEY were trying to tell the story. NOW YOU'VE GOT ME DOING THE SAME THING re costuming! While delighting in one of my favorite videos last night, I found I wasn't paying any attention to the story line...but instead, really looking at what the costume designer was trying to say, bearing in mind what has been explained to me thus far. Many thanks for opening a NEW door into the world of costume! Nancy Saputo ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 26 Dec 1996 09:34:51 -0500 From: Mihalik1@AOL.COM Subject: Unsubscribe Unscubscribe ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 26 Dec 1996 10:54:16 -0400 From: Rich Williamson Subject: Re: inane posts that don't really ask anything At 9:12 PM 12/21/96, Someone You Trust wrote: >Thanks, Margo, for putting it clearer than Rich did (at least for me.) Guess I >was a bit too caught up in my rant to think clearly at the end ;) I'm asking >about the period roughly around Genghis' time. I was, tho' asking more about >the colors of dyes used, not necessarily the cloth...as much as I'd love to be >able to produce a cloth-of-gold tunic...'s a bit out of this po' college >student's budget ;> >Thanks again for putting forth your argument more clearly than did Rich. Yours >seemed more like a request or gentle direction as opposed to "if you can't be >specific get the [insert expletive] offa th' list!" >-Dan Too bad all I said was, "think out your questions". I stasted that "More specifically well thought out questions will get better responses". I never swore at you so I am a little puzzled by your expletive reference. I was not rude and never chastised you or anyone else. I solely stated an opinion, like everyone else on the list. I'm a little dispointed at your immature response. I am glad that you tell me you are in school and have a few more years to study before entering the "real" world. If you take the time to reread the original post you will find that I was tired of people asking "tell me evything you know about XYZ" ...rather than... " I have found that many people tell me about the lenght of 1950's poodle skirts when worn with crinolin's. What is the correct lenght for a theatrical production?" The latter question will produce better responses by far! This way we know what you already know, what you are using it for (remember there are many "kinds" of costuming out there... such as historically correct, theatrical, fantasy, etc), what your budget is, whether you are the one making it, or if you are lokking for it pre-made, etc.... This way we don't waste your time (or ours) telling you about basic concepts if you are more advanced, or teaching you how to build a historicaly correct tunic when all you wanted was a fantasy piece. You have proved one thing to me... You are not gracious, and you do speak (type) without thinking. Thank goodnes you are in the minority around here. I sincerely hope you will reread your post (and my original ) and see that yopu over-reacted. If you read the original post you can plainly see that there was no intent on a flame war. You took the flame -fest upon yourself. Topics regarding the correct way to post or discussions on extraneous posting come up all the time on newslists. I for one will be EVEN LESS likely to respond to stupid questions now Rich Rich Williamson costumes@mindspring.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 26 Dec 1996 12:39:29 -0500 From: Booboopies@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Suspenders? Dear Maggie, I am the editor of the ALHFAM (Association of Living Historical Farms and Agricultural Museums)'s Historic Clothing Committee quarterly newsletter, and one of the topics on which we've had ongoing discussion is the origins of suspenders, when they were called suspenders, when they were worn in America, and any other permutation therefore. Would you be kind enough to share your source for the 1610 date for suspenders so that I could pursue this a bit further? Many thanks, Karen Mullian booboopies@aol.com or swampfox@icdc.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 26 Dec 1996 11:07:30 -0700 From: Jeff Gottfred Subject: Re: Authenticity in movies I am glad whenever a movie gets ANYTHING right--costume, historic facts, sound effects, props, etc. When you think about it, doing a movie, especially a historic one, is fraught with risks. If they get the costume right, what about the props? People familiar with firearms often spot the wrong ones (too early or too late) being used in Westerns & other movies, with historic or modern settings. As a birdwatcher, I know that bird sound effects in movies are _usually_ wrong--wrong habitat, wrong country, wrong time of year, wrong bird (hawks are usually used for eagle sounds, because screaming hawks are more "majestic" than beeping, squeaking Bald Eagles). And that is only the tip of the iceberg. When you think about it, it would take an incredible amount of research to get a movie right in every detail. The best you can expect is that they will try to avoid horrendous errors. Bottom line: it's all an illusion, take in what you see on stage & screen with a skeptical outlook. (I still love movies, but I wouldn't cite them in a research paper!) --Angela Gottfred gottfred@agt.net-->soon to be gottfred@telusplanet.net ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 26 Dec 1996 13:08:14 -0500 From: Sharon and/or Mikie Subject: COSTUME DESIGNERS & COSTUMERS >It certainly seems that that would put a time constraint on the sewers! And >these sewers are the COSTUMERS? Can costumers be employed directly by the >film company/stage company? Are you saying when films are shot on location, >then "locals" are used to sew? Why not have the costumes already made and >taken TO the location site? > Larger movies, and especially period movies, would have a group of people who construct the costumes before shooting begins. I have heard of people being employed as sewers as well, but, to my knowledge, there are still hired cutters, costumers, etc by the movie company, to do the main characters, as well as all the main constuction. But then again, I'm more of a theatre type, so I could be wrong... Sharon ***************************** * * * DON'T MESS WITH TECHIES - * * * * THEY ALL CARRY KNIVES * * * ***************************** ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 26 Dec 1996 13:13:06 -0500 From: Sharon and/or Mikie Subject: Costume Staff This isn't to say "NO, you're wrong!" This is just to give a description of what I am accustomed to. This list is strictly theatre based, NOT film! So that could account for discrepancies. Designer Cutter (can also be a draper, but it's just called a cutter...) Assistant Cutter (not always, but they would do the obvious...) First Hand (this is the primary seamstress. They do all the nitty-gritty picky work) Seamstresses (they do all the basic sewing) Wardrobe Mistress (supervise costumes, dressers, dressing rooms after the production opens. They are in charge of minor repairs, as well as making quick change lists, etc) Dressers As well, you can have your milliners, boot and shoe makers, jewellry makers, etc, which are equal to the cutter. Sharon ***************************** * * * DON'T MESS WITH TECHIES - * * * * THEY ALL CARRY KNIVES * * * ***************************** ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 26 Dec 1996 13:45:12 -0500 From: Gaelscot@AOL.COM Subject: movie costumes I hope I'm not repeating anyone else's comments -- I get the digest, and for the last few days I've missed about half the posts. Like many people on this list, I'm fascinated by historic costume in movies. My pet peeve is fit -- I just can't stand it when clothes don't fit. After that, I judge costumes (when I'm qualified -- and sometimes when I'm not!) by how well they seem to be thought out. I respect a director or costumer's departure from real period costuming when I understand the reason for it. Sometimes historic accuracy is not an issue, and I respect that too. For instance, in the Danny Kaye film "The Court Jester," historical accuracy was NOT a goal. The costumes were loosely based on the real thing, though, not simply made up. I just saw the 1996 French film "Queen Margot," which in many ways was amazingly accurate. The women's clothing, however, was not -- with the exception of the elderly queen Catherine's gowns, at least some of which were taken directly from portraits. All the young women wandered around half naked. They wore lovely and (to my eye, anyway) fairly accurate gowns, but no chemises underneath them. Because the men's clothes were so accurate, though, I think it was a deliberate choice. I think the director was trying to show how decadent and promiscuous the women of the court were (and in real life they certainly were), and probably decided that lots of flesh would convey that to the audience. Because all the other men in the movie had the correct short hair styles, I imagine that giving the princes and Queen Margot's lover long hair was another deliberate choice. What I hate, though, is when a film purports to be accurate and isn't. "Robin Hood: Prince of Thieves" is a case in point. A thoroughly execrable movie in every way, it had costumes that were just about as accurate as it's having Maid Marion sewing the Bayeaux Tapestry (yes, she did) and living in a ruin without any servants, or having the Saxon peasants living in tree houses, or dispensing with King John and having the Sherrif of Nottingham somehow threatening the throne of England. The old Errol Flynn movie, besides simply being a much better film, actually had better costumes. Gail Finke ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 26 Dec 1996 14:19:02 -0500 From: Gaelscot@AOL.COM Subject: Fairy costumes Kimberley: I think that you would do best to simply make clothes of the period for your 1500s fairies. It's my understanding (poor as it may be) that the whole idea of fairies/giants/etc. dressing in a distinctive style is much later than the middle ages. This is a time, remember, when artists depicted the ancient Greeks, Romans and Israelites as looking and dressing exactly like them. The only exceptions I'm aware of are the popular ideas of the "green man" and the "wild man." I don't know if anyone really believed in green men, usually depicted as having faces made out of leaves, but people did think wild men were lurking around forests. Maybe they were! They were usually depicted with long hair and beards, and wearing rags with lots of flapping strips, making them look suitably "wild." I'm not sure what you want this information for, but if you're trying to make something for a play or an event, I'd make regular period clothes in green and/or brown and add leaves, flowers, berries, or something similar. If you want a fancier look, check out some of the period paintings that depict saints or other "fanciful" situations like Classical stories. They often contain made-up decorative details to make them seem exotic. Some books will tell you this, but I'm not sure which ones. Maybe someone else could advise you. Good luck! Gail Finke ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 26 Dec 1996 14:19:07 -0500 From: Gaelscot@AOL.COM Subject: queen margot costumes I just a little curious. Does anyone know how the women's costumes in "Queen Margot" were constructed? The bodices were quite tight and without wrinkles, which might mean they were worn over corsets. But I am guessing that they perhaps covered a corset with the garment cloth to get a one-piece gown. It just looked that way to me. That would mean a lot more corsetry, though. Gail Finke ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 26 Dec 1996 14:19:12 -0500 From: Gaelscot@AOL.COM Subject: cotehardie/spanish surcote As to the idea of cotehardies being worn under Spanish surcotes as "heirlooms," I'd check that out very carefully to see if the written source exists and, if so, if it really refers to a cotehardie. Even if there is no such source, however, it sounds like the sort of thing that could have happened occasionally. (I'm on dangerous ground here, I know.) But if you have to make the undergown anyway, why not make what we know was worn? There are many good Elizabethan-era patterns, particularly the ones in Janet Arnold's books. There are no good cotehardie patterns that I'm aware of. Period Patterns makes one that requires LOTS of alterations. And you can fake it with commercial princess-line patterns, again with LOTS of alterations. Either way requires lots of time, effort and (probably) wasted fabric. Gail Finke ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 26 Dec 1996 15:29:35 EST From: Maggie Pierce Subject: Re: queen margot costumes I don't know, but they sure looked like they were worn over corsets! Maybe they just built the corset into the bodice, which his not that difficult. It just means building a new corset for every gown, instead of just one per actress. Personally, I find the idea of wearing a corset right next to my body bare, sans shift, a nightmare! Maggie Countess of Southampton **You can take the girl out of the Court, but you can't take the Courtier out of the Girl!** On Thu, 26 Dec 1996 14:19:07 -0500 Gaelscot@AOL.COM writes: >I just a little curious. Does anyone know how the women's costumes in >"Queen >Margot" were constructed? The bodices were quite tight and without >wrinkles, >which might mean they were worn over corsets. But I am guessing that >they >perhaps covered a corset with the garment cloth to get a one-piece >gown. It >just looked that way to me. That would mean a lot more corsetry, >though. > >Gail Finke > ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 26 Dec 1996 15:29:35 EST From: Maggie Pierce Subject: Re: Suspenders? Well, I feel rather foolish. On going back to look I am appalled to find that the source is later than I thought! Rats! It's in Anthony Burgess's *Shakespeare* (Jonathon Cape 1970; Penguin Books 1972) p. 49. Being a considerable scholar, Burgess gives very nice notes on his illistrations. Here's the citation he gives: "Woodcut of bull- and bear-baiting in the Fechthaus, Nuremberg. In *Curioser Spiegel*, 1689 (as reproduced in 1793 edn)." Are they still into bull baiting in 1689, even in the Germanies? Or would this have been a description of "curious games" played in the past, illustrated with an older... But then... oooh. this makes my head hurt. In any case, since this appeared in a source that was not discussing clothes, of course no one thought to answer the questions WE would ask. While they are certainly suspenders, I have no idea what they may have been called. Hope tis my be of some help anyway. If you'll trust me with a mailling address, i'll send you a copy of the picture. Maggie Countess of Southampton **You can take the girl out of the Court, but you can't take the Courtier out of the Girl!** On Thu, 26 Dec 1996 12:39:29 -0500 Booboopies@aol.com writes: >Dear Maggie, > >I am the editor of the ALHFAM (Association of Living Historical Farms >and >Agricultural Museums)'s Historic Clothing Committee quarterly >newsletter, and >one of the topics on which we've had ongoing discussion is the origins >of >suspenders, when they were called suspenders, when they were worn in >America, >and any other permutation therefore. > >Would you be kind enough to share your source for the 1610 date for >suspenders so that I could pursue this a bit further? > >Many thanks, > >Karen Mullian >booboopies@aol.com >or >swampfox@icdc.com > > > ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 26 Oct 1996 13:58:47 -0700 From: Margo Anderson Subject: Re: movie costumes At 01:45 PM 12/26/96 -0500, you wrote: > >What I hate, though, is when a film purports to be accurate and isn't. "Robin >Hood: Prince of Thieves" is a case in point Just who was it that claimed it was historically accurate? This is a standard example of a "fantasy historical", as I call them, meaning that it's a fantasy loosely based on history. There always are, and always have been, movies that try to be meticulous reproductions and movies that try to have fun. As for the Errol Flynn version's costumes being so much better, well, not much, IMHO. Maid Marion's matronly wimple made of bridal satin just doesn't cut it. As I recall, the best Robin Hood movie for historical accuracy was Robin and Marion...although my memories may be colored by my delight at Robin Hood played by Sean Connery. Ooh Baby! ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 26 Oct 1996 14:59:15 -0700 From: Margo Anderson Subject: SCA as resource At 10:01 PM 12/23/96 -0500, you wrote: >PMFJI, but I think one reason that a lot of SCA questions (at least the basic >kind, that I assume this lady was asking, albeit indirectly) get kind of an >indifferent or somewhat frosty response on this list. > >I've seen messages that seemed to say (at least to me), "If you're in SCA, go >ask them...." I gave the SCA as a source because they are the most available resource, not to dismiss medieval costume as not being the concern of this group. I think the recent thread on "how I got into costuming" shows how valuable the SCA has been to most of us. A recent poster who was part of an SCA offshoot group complained of how hard it was to find information on costuming this period. IMHO this is probably the easiest period to get started in, because of the SCA. I don't quite understand the reluctance some people have to use this resource. You don't have to join to go to a meeting, or even easier, post a question on Rec.org.sca. The Rialto archives are full of information. why not use it? The SCA has any number of people willing and eager to teach new costumers their craft. They also have a number of publications on costume and related topics, plus many groups have collegiums, seminars, workshops, and "stitch and bitch" evenings. Now, if someone posted on this list asking for basic information on, say, 5th century Peruvian costume, and there was a group like this that played in the period, wouldn't that be your first reference? :) I do feel, though, that newcomers need to be aware of a few pitfalls. One is the fact that there is no quality control. Their rules request "an attempt" at medieval clothing. Therefore, anything goes. (I'm speaking of everday wear, of course, not competition entries, which are often of extremely high quality). Another is the fact that, while the Society's ideals are of courtesy and graciousness, there is an above average level of social ineptitude. People who are honestly trying to help you can sound downright rude, and it can get worse from there. (Most of these people, I should mention, are relative newcomers themselves.) So, if you're thin-skinned, this can be a difficult place to ask for help. You might try finding out who the Laurels (a rank earned by excellence and teaching in the arts) are, and asking them for help. Since courteous behavior is a requirement for a Laurel, they are far less likely to treat you rudely. Remember, as I've said before, it's insecure people who slam you. Another problem is that there are "internal fashions" in the SCA. One person makes a costume with sloppy research, someone copies it and modifies it further, it keeps going, and in a year there are dozens of people wandering around in entirely fantastical garments. If you just want to look right in the SCA, it's not too much of a problem, but if you're getting information to be used elsewhere, it is. As with any other source, to acheive historical accuracy, you have to do your own research, if only enough to verify that what an authority told you is correct. By the way, I am not an active member of the SCA. I simply recognize, and use, a valuable resource when I see one. Margo Anderson "One Tough Costumer" ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 26 Dec 1996 15:59:35 -0700 From: Julie Adams Subject: Re: PROPER H-COSTUME ETIQUETTE & AUTHENTICITY >Date: Thu, 26 Dec 1996 15:58:58 -0700 >To:NLSaputo@AOL.COM >From:savaskan@sd.znet.com (Julie Adams) >Subject:Re: PROPER H-COSTUME ETIQUETTE & AUTHENTICITY > >> Should I post thank-you's to every response I receive (this is asked in >>earnest, with no sarcasm intended)? Or should the appreciation be relayed >>via private e-mail? > >I think that private e-mail is preferred for individual personal >thankyous. As someone who experiences a touchy phone line in wet weather, >downloading "me too" posts or individual personal thank you notes can be >time consuming. > >If you had input from many people on the list. a general thank you can be >nice, especially if accompanied by feedback on the original subject or >project. A lot of us appreciate feedback such as "so and so said to do x, >but I found that because I have a bust to waist ratio of y that I adjusted >the procedure with y and it worked better" or "While researching X, I also >came across references Y and Z that you should all add to the references >which were mentioned". > >The greatest appreciation and regards I have is for people who take the >advice presented on the list one step further, and give new information >back to the list based on what they learned. > >Julie Adams > > ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 26 Dec 1996 15:59:57 -0700 From: Julie Adams Subject: Re: COSTUMING-STRIVING FOR AUTHENTICITY >Date: Thu, 26 Dec 1996 15:58:51 -0700 >To:don and carolyn richardson >From:savaskan@sd.znet.com (Julie Adams) >Subject:Re: COSTUMING-STRIVING FOR AUTHENTICITY > >>they had beautiful racks of vintage clothes, many of which >>they had used on the Winona Ryder version of "Little Women" and "The Age >>of Innocence". It just killed me to think of some of those dresses >>being used again - one in particular which was used in Little Woman was >>seen on screen all of about 5 seconds and was in excellent condition - >>sort of a soft seafoam green. But the really spectacular thing about it >>was the decoration on the yoke collar - thousands of tiny French knots >>forming a design of ovals about 1x2 inches and a scallop around the >>entire yoke - and this was a largish dress (it's worn by the aunt in the >>movie and she was not a small woman). >> >>Carolyn > >Some of us have speculated that the reason that most of the surviving >costume bits and vintage pieces are for sized for very small people is >because the larger ones are so much easier to rework or keep wearing. > >Julie Adams ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 26 Dec 1996 19:16:35 -0500 From: Ron Carnegie Subject: Re: Suspenders? At 03:29 PM 12/26/96 EST, you wrote: >Are they still into bull baiting in 1689, even in the Germanies? Or would >this have been a description of "curious games" played in the past, >illustrated with an older... But then... oooh. this makes my head hurt. > I have seen for documentation for a near equivilent, Bear baiting, in British North America as late as the 18th century. I have heard of references for American Bear baiting in the 19th centiury, though I have not seen that myself. I have no trouble believing that the Germans are bull baiting in 1682. The wearing of the braces themselves seems stranger to me. Those silly germans. Cheers, Ron Carnegie rcarnegie@widomaker.com ************************************************* "The poetry of history lies in the quasi-miraculous fact that once on this earth, on this familiar spot of ground walked other men and women as actual as we are today, thinking their own thoughts, swayed by their own passions but now all gone, vanishing after another, gone as utterly as we ourselves shall be gone like ghosts at cockcrow." G.M. Trevelyan ************************************************* ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 26 Dec 1996 20:31:52 -0600 From: "William B. Birner" Subject: Re: COSTUME DESIGNERS & COSTUMERS >Date: Thu, 26 Dec 1996 07:25:59 -0600 >To: h-costume@andrew.cmu.edu >From: "William B. Birner" >Subject: Re: COSTUME DESIGNERS & COSTUMERS > >At 03:38 PM 12/25/96 -0500, Nancy Saputo wrote: >>In reply to Allison Achauer: >> >><<...there are many people who work as sketch artists for costume >>designers... >><<...the costume designer is simply responsible for the design and the shop >>is >> responsible for turning that design into a finished costume. >>************************************************************************* >>Well, I'm trying hard to understand how this all works. There can be a >>COSTUME DESIGNER who creates on *paper* the appropriate design. And then the >>COSTUMER constructs the design out of the appropriate material. Therefore, >>there are two people involved in the creative process, right? (Aside from >>the Director.) SKETCH ARTISTS? And an artist to draw for the designer who >>then has the costumer construct? >> >>Do challenges ever come up where the designer designs something that would be >>extremely difficult to construct? (I have neither drawing nor sewing >>talent...bear with me, please.) If TWO people are involved in this creative >>venture, I would imagine there are times when one starts pulling out their >>hair? Is there ever a designer and costumer in ONE individual? >> >>Re the Oscars: So when an individual wins this prestigious award, it's >>really the DESIGNER rather than the COSTUMER? >> >>Given the constrictions of various elements of costume (bodices and sleeve >>placement, for example), would a DESIGNER perhaps change the construction so >>as to allow an actor more freedom of movement for a particular >>role....thereby, eliminating some historical accuracy? >> >>Mind you, I'm not preaching here that EVERY movie, play, etc., should be >>historically accurate in regard to costume. Most people wouldn't know the >>difference! I'm just curious about the whole process. >> >>Nancy Saputo > >Awrighty, let a lurking Ex-insider try to step into this muddle and set out a remembrance and a viewpoint. > >I am a former prof. of stage design who retired from it some years ago and now do only a set of approximately 20 historically based [more later] elaborate Mardi Gras costumes for a ball each year. > >In the "olden" days in the professional theatre a designer had to be minimally competent at all skills designing scenery, costumes, lighting. Costuming split off first, later lighting. > >Professional designers have to be able to draw and render. Having someone else do it for you, if you can't, is saying that a ghost writer made you a real novelist. The rendering is what communicates the design to construction folks, directors, actors. When the "style" "mood", etc. is a fuzzy feeling but not clear that communication is not terribly useful nor can a seamstress/tailor construct what supposedly is in the designer's mind. At best it is a pretty picture suggesting how a designer feels and maybe a color balance. Without direction what comes out has got to be what is in the seamstress' mind. That constructor may or may not be a competent designer. Many people may be superb technicians with great knowledge and skill but little artistic ability. > >A designer devoid of any knowledge of construction is dangerous. They may design nightmares to construct or wear and/or move in. > >Some of the great European artists (not basically designers) who designed for early 20th century theatricals and ballet fit this mold. Exciting designs perhaps, but impossible ones. These dilletantes died out in the theatre. > >A designer of anything beyond fantasy must know historically what folks wore. Well enough to have some idea how they were made. One cannot design much detail of "look" if one doesn't know a raglan from a set in sleeve and what periods might have used them, or a farthingale from a frock. Example: I understand basic construction but never did much sewing (hardly enough to qualify as "any"). But I can converse with my seamstresses without thinking they are talking Ancient Greek. > >Do some designers use assistants. Certainly. Do all designers draw very well. No. But a designer must be able to design and give full detail to whoever executes the pictorial representation. Or it isn't his/her design. Or artistically/intellectually hones! Some drape in 1/4 scale but they rarely trim with full detail. Some do mediocre renderings (of possibly wonderful designs) and have a better renderer do the drawings. But virtually or almost all who rise to the top have complete control of their media - two dimensional as well as three. And I am quite sure that the same is true of film industry designers. If one cannot accurately communicate in full detail what one imagines in their mind then that person is not an artist but a daydreamer. But if one is brilliant in conception and weak in graphic skills and can impart the first to an assistant then that assistant becomes like a good secretary taking graphoc doctation. The problem is that secretaries and executives are using a common language. Artists who must tell their assistants what to graphically do are steppping through a translation barrier. The medium is not the message nor the map the territory. > >As to the accuracy - >Theatre and film are entertainment and artistic media (or both at their best). They are not museums. Each has its place and purpose. Art is not a synomnym for skill. In plays dealing with major figures, certainly we should pay attention to the accurate _depiction_ of the period. But only in support of the artistic purpose. Just as in an historical museum we should be more concerned with absolute accuracy (knowledge) as the measure rather than any artistic interpretation. Accuracy becomes the theme and meaning. Most attempts to marry the two, teaching deadly accurate history with dramatic art, yield pedantic, didactic and deadly "art." They are different means of expresion. > >And then there is the use of "history". I start each production with a period and style which serves as a point of departure for me - both as a springboard and as a unifying element. But unless there is some other historical significance of import, the accuracy becomes less than secondary. But I start with it. Not in construction, fabric or anything else but in only the "look" from the vantage point of the audience and its distance in space, time and "philosophical" position. > > > > Ciao, Bill ------------- wbbirner@ix.netcom.com (William B. Birner) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 26 Dec 1996 23:29:50 -0400 From: Margaret Rae Carignan Subject: Re: COSTUMING-STRIVING FOR AUTHENTICITY Hi, Nancy and All I have often asked myself the same question - why can't historical movies use correct costumes, or why don't movie designers strive for more authenticity? I think I know part of the answer, now that I have done a bit of study of theatrical and movie costuming. Costumes in theatrical productions (including TV and movies) serve more purposes than just to clothe actors; they can create a character, set a mood, or provide a unifying theme. They can also be an avenue for the designer to assert their own personal taste, style or ideas. Since most of the public doesn't study costume in any detail, many members of any potetnial audience won't know if the costumes are "authentic" or not; as long as they "look historical" the effect is acheived. I also suspect that research costs money (if any money is going to researchers, pick me!) and budgets for costumes are already tight. I have often caught myself wishing that there was some kind of "historical costumers code", but there ain't. We should at least be glad that today's actresses are put in stays when appropriate, and that Elizabethan bodices need no longer include bust darts! Meg/Francesca ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 26 Dec 1996 22:41:32 EST From: Maggie Pierce Subject: Re: Suspenders? Hi Ron! I can show you the picture and believe me, it's braces/suspenders. I'm only devastated to realize that because it was in a book about Shakespeare, I have been presuming it was contemporary. Funny how you can go back to old work and realize how unsophisticated you were at the time. ("Look, see, it's a wood cut. It MUST be period!") At least I actually have the book, not just an un-referenced xerox of the page! Maggie Countess of Southampton **You can take the girl out of the Court, but you can't take the Courtier out of the Girl!** On Thu, 26 Dec 1996 19:16:35 -0500 Ron Carnegie writes: >At 03:29 PM 12/26/96 EST, you wrote: > > >>Are they still into bull baiting in 1689, even in the Germanies? Or >would >>this have been a description of "curious games" played in the past, >>illustrated with an older... But then... oooh. this makes my head >hurt. >> > I have seen for documentation for a near equivilent, Bear >baiting, >in British North America as late as the 18th century. I have heard of >references for American Bear baiting in the 19th centiury, though I >have not >seen that myself. I have no trouble believing that the Germans are >bull >baiting in 1682. The wearing of the braces themselves seems stranger >to me. >Those silly germans. > >Cheers, >Ron Carnegie >rcarnegie@widomaker.com > ************************************************* > "The poetry of history lies in the quasi-miraculous fact that > once on this earth, on this familiar spot of ground walked > other men and women as actual as we are today, thinking > their own thoughts, swayed by their own passions but now > all gone, vanishing after another, gone as utterly as we > ourselves shall be gone like ghosts at cockcrow." > G.M. Trevelyan > ************************************************* > ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 26 Oct 1996 20:43:52 -0700 From: Margo Anderson Subject: 1840's bodice I'm making the bodice for an 1840's ball gown with a pleated bertha, similar to the one on page 71 of Jean Hunnisett's Period Costume for Stage and Screen. My dilemma is this: my client is very short, and we're afraid that the bertha may make it difficult to lift her arm high enough to dance. Is there a solution to this problem, aside from hissing at her partner to get his arm down? I know about adding the elastic insert to the armsceye, but how much ease can you give the collar and how do you avoid it drooping? Can anyone offer advice? Also, my client is uncomfortable with the short sleeves typical of the period. I have seen full elbow length sleeves on afternoon dresses, such as in Winterhalter's Portrait of Empress Eugenie and Her Ladies. Could this style also be used on an evening dress for a young matron? Margo Anderson ------------------------------ End of H-COSTUME Digest - 25 Dec 1996 to 26 Dec 1996 **************************************************** From ???@??? Sat Dec 28 15:09:33 1996 Received: from brownvm.brown.edu by mail.math.TU-Berlin.DE with SMTP id AA09742 (5.67b8/IDA-1.5 for ); Sat, 28 Dec 1996 06:01:52 +0100 Message-Id: <199612280501.AA09742@mail.math.TU-Berlin.DE> Received: from BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU by BROWNVM.brown.edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with BSMTP id 6360; Sat, 28 Dec 96 00:00:21 EST Received: from BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU (NJE origin LISTSERV@BROWNVM) by BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 9964; Sat, 28 Dec 1996 00:00:18 -0500 Date: Sat, 28 Dec 1996 00:00:14 -0500 Reply-To: Historic Costume List Sender: Historic Costume List From: Automatic digest processor Subject: H-COSTUME Digest - 26 Dec 1996 to 27 Dec 1996 To: Recipients of H-COSTUME digests There are 16 messages totalling 450 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. Suspenders? (4) 2. COSTUMING-STRIVING FOR AUTHENTICITY (3) 3. Authenticity and theatre 4. definition of terms: designer & costumer 5. apology 6. How I got started in costuming 7. strapless chest wrap 8. crevat? 9. Sword swallowing 10. Email problems 11. Costume Software ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 27 Dec 1996 00:03:44 -0500 From: Booboopies@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Suspenders? Maggie, A thousand thanks! I'm looking at Burgess now (just happen to have a copy ). Very interesting. Will have to remember to include this in an upcoming issue of our newsletter! They look like the upper part of lederhosen. In German, suspenders are called Hosentrager (umlaut over the "a"), according to Langenscheidt's. I think bull-baiting was still being tolerated into the early 18th century. I'll check Pepys's diary (which I also have ) as I think there is a reference to his attending either bull-baiting or bear-baiting. I will probably take me awhile to find it -- there are 9 volumes! Thanks again. Karen ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Dec 1996 00:57:00 -0500 From: Ron Carnegie Subject: Re: Suspenders? At 10:41 PM 12/26/96 EST, you wrote: >Hi Ron! I can show you the picture and believe me, it's >braces/suspenders. I'm only devastated to realize that because it was in >a book about Shakespeare, I have been presuming it was contemporary. >Funny how you can go back to old work and realize how unsophisticated >you were at the time. ("Look, see, it's a wood cut. It MUST be >period!") At least I actually have the book, not just an un-referenced >xerox of the page! > > >Maggie Countess of Southampton >**You can take the girl out of the Court, but you can't take the Courtier >out of the Girl!** > > I know what you mean. I am now in a position where I must be able to document not only that something existed in a period, but in this region of Virginia. I most have several bits of documentation (since just about anything can be documented with ONE source). I am often surprised by things I have learned, that just are not true! It can be difficult remembering where I learned something, and if ther was ever any documentation supporting it or not! Cheers, Ron Carnegie rcarnegie@widomaker.com ************************************************* "The poetry of history lies in the quasi-miraculous fact that once on this earth, on this familiar spot of ground walked other men and women as actual as we are today, thinking their own thoughts, swayed by their own passions but now all gone, vanishing after another, gone as utterly as we ourselves shall be gone like ghosts at cockcrow." G.M. Trevelyan ************************************************* ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Dec 1996 01:07:20 -0500 From: Ron Carnegie Subject: Re: Suspenders? At 12:03 AM 12/27/96 -0500, you wrote: >Maggie, > >A thousand thanks! I'm looking at Burgess now (just happen to have a copy >). Very interesting. Will have to remember to include this in an upcoming >issue of our newsletter! They look like the upper part of lederhosen. In >German, suspenders are called Hosentrager (umlaut over the "a"), according to >Langenscheidt's. > >I think bull-baiting was still being tolerated into the early 18th century. >I'll check Pepys's diary (which I also have ) as I think there is a >reference to his attending either bull-baiting or bear-baiting. I will >probably take me awhile to find it -- there are 9 volumes! > >Thanks again. > >Karen > In the book "Rural Clothing of Pennsylvania" it states the the Germans in Pennsylvania reffered to leather breeches as Lederhozen. If you look closely at a pair of modern lederhosen, you will see many similarities between them and a typical pair of later 18th century narrow fall breeches. I have often wondered about this. As far as suspenders/or braces are concerned, I have not seen documentation for them earlier than the end of the 18th century. (There are a pair of leather breeches at the Smithsonian Muesum of American History dated to the third quarter of the 18th century. These do have suspender buttons, those some have conjectured that they were added at a later date.) There are several periods of history however when some other garment is doing that same job (doublets from the late 14th century into the 17th for instance). I wonder if the fact these "sportsmen" are in their shirtsleeves has something to do with the use of the suspenders? (Or maybe it's just because they are Germans!) Cheers, Ron Carnegie rcarnegie@widomaker.com ************************************************* "The poetry of history lies in the quasi-miraculous fact that once on this earth, on this familiar spot of ground walked other men and women as actual as we are today, thinking their own thoughts, swayed by their own passions but now all gone, vanishing after another, gone as utterly as we ourselves shall be gone like ghosts at cockcrow." G.M. Trevelyan ************************************************* ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Dec 1996 03:05:55 -0500 From: Sharon and/or Mikie Subject: Re: COSTUMING-STRIVING FOR AUTHENTICITY We should at least be glad that today's >actresses are put in stays when appropriate Not to be a thorn in anyone's side, but I know of a few big stage actresses who REFUSE to be corseted (you have to be big to refuse this type of thing, or you will never work...) Now THAT drives me nuts! Sharon ***************************** * * * DON'T MESS WITH TECHIES - * * * * THEY ALL CARRY KNIVES * * * ***************************** ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 22 Dec 1996 18:26:52 +0000 From: Maggie Percival Subject: Authenticity and theatre Patricia wrote: > >I think one reason many movies have costumes that aren't completely authentic >is the fact that in theatre, you're trying to impact an audience rather than >be completely authentic. The first costume books I ever read were theatrical >costume books, and they actually told the costumer not to go for strict >authenticity for several reasons. One was cost, and another was the fact that >you want to impact the audience first and authenticity has to take the back >seat. Those are two reasons, a third - concerning viewing from a distance has also been mentioned (let alone the effects of stage lighting) - but another thing you have to bear in mind is that some artists have to change costumes rather quickly, sometimes in a couple of minutes and that is impossible for some periods if you stick to authenticity. Maggie Percival ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Dec 1996 09:17:54 -0500 From: Heather Leigh Harrison Subject: definition of terms: designer & costumer O.K....let's se if I can help clear up all these words we're throwing around. (I apologize for the confusion if I contributed...believe me, it happens all the time even with people who do theatrical costumes on a life-long basis!! :) ) The definitions do change somewhat depending on who you talk to, BUT.....what I have found to be fairly universal in the field is: a designer is someone who comes up with the ideas for the costumes and is the main collaborator with the director as far as the vision of the show (and yes, sometimes they come to an impass in their ideas and dreams for the production, but hopefully their talent and expertise can help them to come to a middle ground where they agree and understand each other.) Generally the term costumer refers to someone who designs the costumes but also has part in creating them (whether that be draping, cutting, crafts, millinery, stitching, etc. - *all of these titles are other people who may work in a costume shop depending on the production and budget) Top designers on Broadway and in film, do not do the actual labor on the creation of their shows. People like William Ivey Long ("Crazy for You"), Ann Hold Ward ("Beauty and the Beast") and Colleen Atwood ("Little Women") are the designers and they rely on professional costume shops (like Barbara Matera, Ltd., Donna Langman Studio's, Michael-Jon's, etc.) to construct their designs. (And each of these shops will hire cutters, drapers, milliners, stitchers, beaders, hand-finishers, etc.) Costumers are USUALLY (though not always) found in university settings, regional theatres, or smaller scale venues than film, television and Broadway and are responsible for the designs for a production as well as at least some part of the construction. NOW... sketch artists are people with excellent drawing skills (and often design skills as well) who are hired by designers (such as the ones listed above) to put the designers ideas down on paper in the form of a sketch. These top designers are often working on many projects at once and no longer have time to sit and draw sketches (particularly preliminary ones for director approval) for every project. Some designers only use sketch artists (like Theoni Aldridge) but others still do their own renderings. As far as the question on whether the designer would adjust the garment shape or construction to allow greater movement, etc., that's usually where the draper (person making the pattern and fitting the costume) comes in. They are the ones with the expertise in construction and (hopefully) period dress making techniques. Yes, it's interesting that designers (those with the ideas and drawings) get awards but those same honors are not available to drapers, craftspeople (unless they are computerized mechanical things), stitchers, milliners, etc. Most of the professional costume shops I have dealt with do take pride in the productions that they have worked on which win awards...even if they don't have one to sit on their shelf, they know that it was their skill which helped along the nominee. Sorry- I am one who can't answer something (like this!) in less than 2000 words, but I hope it helps! Don't fret about the confusion...as I said before, it's very common and understandable. All these definitions are one of the first things I used to teach undergraduate actors in an Intro. to Costume class....if they want to go on in theatre (and look good in their clothes!) it helps to know and respect each persons job and role in the process. Hope this wasn't too boring...I think it's rather fun to dissect all that goes into this glorious thing of ART!!! Cheers! Heather ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Dec 1996 09:43:29 -0500 From: Heather Leigh Harrison Subject: apology Uh-oh, I was perusing all the entries of this week and came across the first request for definitions of costumers, designers, sketch artists, etc. and paused there to respond. Only later did I go on to read all the other wonderful answers to the same question! Sorry for the repetition - didn't mean to beat a dead horse! Signed, the long-winded one! ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Dec 1996 09:52:56 -0500 From: Northshield Folk Subject: Re: COSTUMING-STRIVING FOR AUTHENTICITY TE> We should at least be glad that today's TE>>actresses are put in stays when appropriate TE>Not to be a thorn in anyone's side, but I know of a few big stage actresses TE>who REFUSE to be corseted (you have to be big to refuse this type of thing, TE>or you will never work...) Now THAT drives me nuts! TE>Sharon There was an instance of a well known actor who shall remain nameless. He was the lead in a production in Minneapolis a few years back. He refused to let me or any of my staff, measure him, do alterations etc. because we were not "union". My answer was " its a shame he will have to perform naked". Has anyone else run into this, and what union? This type of thing is really uncommon in South Dakota and I do not do professional productions as a normal thing. Nancy Foust shadewescompany@on-ramp.com Glory,Magesty,Unity Warriors of the Northshield and the Known World ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Dec 1996 09:28:19 -0700 From: Jeff Gottfred Subject: How I got started in costuming Really, I haven't truly gotten started in costuming yet, despite a strong interest in living history for the last 2 1/2 years. I try to learn all I can about costume of my particular interest area (W. Canadian fur trade, ca. 1790-1814, esp. fur traders' wives), but my costume research will always take a back seat to my historic research. Anything about dress or textiles that I find in my historic research (traders' journals, usually) gets carefully noted, but I have a lot to learn about costume & textiles in the more civilized parts of N. America & England during my period. I am a novice sewer (2 shifts, 2 petticoats, 1 pair of leggings, & 2 aprons to my credit), but my husband has become a self-taught tailor and made many complicated garments (tail coat, narrow-fall trousers, short gown)for the two of us. I mostly lurk on this list, waiting for crumbs to fall from the feast of the more knowledgeable here. (Donations of titles of helpful books gratefully accepted--local libraries are apalling, but interlibrary loan works great if I know what to ask for!) In return, I try to do the best I can whenever I feel I _can_ make a contribution. Back to primary lurking mode for now-- merry Christmas & happy New Year to all! --Angela Gottfred Northwest Brigade Club Northwest Journal Online --> www.telusplanet.net/public/gottfred/nwj.html gottfred@agt.net-->soon to be gottfred@telusplanet.net ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Dec 1996 13:57:37 EST From: Maggie Pierce Subject: Re: Suspenders? Thanks for all the help and interest! Funny how realizing the picture is German puts a whole new twist on it! One other thought: If indeed the garment is lederhosen, are we forced to assume a horizontal band across the chest as well? Maggie Countess of Southampton **You can take the girl out of the Court, but you can't take the Courtier out of the Girl!** ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Dec 1996 13:57:53 -0600 From: Beverly Seavey Subject: strapless chest wrap THis probably isn't exactly a historical costuming question and I apologize. After the missionaries arrived in Hawaii, women were convinced to cover their chests. One of the "historic" styles seen in ancient style Hula competitions is a very blousy top starting just the breasts. The other style that I have seen less often is a fairly tightly wrapped arrangement that allows the waist and breasts to be fairly defined. My guess is that the starting piece is triangular or a rectangle. Does anyone know how this wrap is done? It is strapless, that is, it doesn't go over the shoulders at all. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Dec 1996 18:41:52 -0500 From: Northshield Folk Subject: crevat? I am looking for info on how to properly construct and tie a crevat? I think I have proper spelling and name. Quickest reference is late 1700, I have seen examples in Interview w/ Vampire. I have someone who wants a shirt with one. I am stuck on two points. The cut(width,length) of the neck piece, and is it attached to the shirt at all. The wrap and tie to get the right look. Thanks in advance. Nancy Laughlin-Foust shadewescompany@on-ramp.com Glory,Magesty,Unity Warriors of the Northshield and the Known World ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Dec 1996 18:41:54 -0500 From: Northshield Folk Subject: Sword swallowing THis is a little off topic, but does anyone know of a person trained in sword swallowing, or a lead to find someone who does. I have a friend who is a performer who is already professionally trained to eat/breathe fire. She want to learn sword swallowing next. Nancy Laughlin-Foust shadewescompany@on-ramp.com Glory,Magesty,Unity Warriors of the Northshield and the Known World ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Dec 1996 20:38:26 EST From: Bonnie Glickman Subject: Email problems To: bcorris@aol.com jan510@aol.com cayugabirds-l@cornell.edu glickman@frontiernet.net scorris@juno.com h-costume@brownvm.brown.edu From: B. Glickman Subject: Email problems Our email system (Eckert) has crashed and will not be looked at until at least January 2 or 3. If you are trying to reach me, please try this address or phon e (work - 716-292-2725). This is being sent from our interoffice system. Thanks for your patience...i'm about at the end of mine...B) GLICKMAN@MCCVM.IS.MONROECC.EDU (B. Glickman, Bio. Dept) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 26 Dec 1996 21:46:46 -0500 From: Kathy Wells Subject: Re: Costume Software -- [ From: Kathy Wells * EMC.Ver #2.5.02 ] -- I tried to find the web page of computer software for drafting patterns, Kij was talking. The correct address is: http://www.hk.super.net/~rlowe/sew.html There is a demo version there, should anyone want to explore this option. Kathy Wells ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 28 Dec 1996 04:49:27 GMT From: "Paul C. Dickie" Subject: Re: COSTUMING-STRIVING FOR AUTHENTICITY In message shadewescompany@ON-RAMP.COM writes: > > There was an instance of a well known actor who shall remain nameless. > He was the lead in a production in Minneapolis a few years back. > > He refused to let me or any of my staff, measure him, do alterations etc. > because we were not "union". My answer was " its a shame he will have > to perform naked". > > Has anyone else run into this, and what union? ^^^^^^^^^^ Either Equity, or (perhaps) the Seamsters'... Did he perform naked and how did he know the Almighty (whom some would say had designed the fellow's birthday suit) had a Union card? o-) < Paul > ------------------------------ End of H-COSTUME Digest - 26 Dec 1996 to 27 Dec 1996 **************************************************** From ???@??? Tue Dec 31 09:11:56 1996 Received: from brownvm.brown.edu by mail.math.TU-Berlin.DE with SMTP id AA11928 (5.67b8/IDA-1.5 for ); Sun, 29 Dec 1996 06:01:37 +0100 Message-Id: <199612290501.AA11928@mail.math.TU-Berlin.DE> Received: from BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU by BROWNVM.brown.edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with BSMTP id 6793; Sun, 29 Dec 96 00:00:15 EST Received: from BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU (NJE origin LISTSERV@BROWNVM) by BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 7683; Sun, 29 Dec 1996 00:00:14 -0500 Date: Sun, 29 Dec 1996 00:00:12 -0500 Reply-To: Historic Costume List Sender: Historic Costume List From: Automatic digest processor Subject: H-COSTUME Digest - 27 Dec 1996 to 28 Dec 1996 To: Recipients of H-COSTUME digests There are 8 messages totalling 216 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. H-COSTUME Digest - 26 Dec 1996 to 27 Dec 1996 2. Pet Peeves on this list (was: verbosity) 3. SUGGESTION: INCLUDE *CIRCA* IN SUBJECT LINE 4. THIS 20TH CENTURY OF OURS 5. crevat? 6. Authenticity and theatre 7. Theatre costuming unions 8. movies ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 28 Dec 1996 00:15:32 -0500 From: - Mardee Sherman Subject: Re: H-COSTUME Digest - 26 Dec 1996 to 27 Dec 1996 In reply to the question about the actor who had a problem with non-union workers, there are many costume shops which are union. For example, workers at Parson-Meares in NY belong to the ILGU (International Ladies Garment Union) - other costume shops might belong to IATSE (International Assn. of Theatrical Stage Employees). It depends on what kind of contract the theatre has. In cases like this, non-union personnel are not allowed to fit, sew, etc. However, it doesn't sound like this was the case here. I would have to say the actor was probably just being lazy. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 28 Dec 1996 02:25:57 -0500 From: Rhodry ferch Arianwyn Subject: Re: Pet Peeves on this list (was: verbosity) Okay, I'll join in with the pet peeves... I wish people would post circa dates in the subject line, e.g. Hats c.1800; Corsets c. 1565; Coat of Emperor Henry II, c. 1014, etc. This way everyone can read what they are interested in, delete what they aren't, and if something catches their eye but isn't a time-frame they are interested in, they can read it if they want (so no one is missing anything). Even just doing Victorian/Edwardian this or Tudor that is absolutely great!!! Thank you - Rhodry ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 28 Dec 1996 06:20:59 -0500 From: Nancy Saputo Subject: SUGGESTION: INCLUDE *CIRCA* IN SUBJECT LINE On 12/28, Rhodry wrote: << I wish people would post circa dates in the subject line, e.g. Hats c.1800; Corsets c. 1565; Coat of Emperor Henry II, c. 1014, etc. This way everyone can read what they are interested in, delete what they aren't, and if something catches their eye but isn't a time-frame they are interested in, they can read it if they want (so no one is missing anything). Even just doing Victorian/Edwardian this or Tudor that is absolutely great!!! **************************************************************************** Seems there are many "branches" on this Historic-Costume tree--design, sewing, collecting, re-enactment, dance. I, too, would appreciate the *Subject* lines including the time-frame involved. It would facilitate easier decision-making as to which posts should be opened or deleted. To quote Martha Stewart (OH, listen to all those groans!)....THIS IS A GOOD THING! Nancy Saputo ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 28 Dec 1996 08:26:58 -0500 From: J&B Subject: THIS 20TH CENTURY OF OURS Dear colleagues- I have been reading these complaints and suggestions about postings . I listen in amazement as people react in anger when the subject matter and form are not tailored to their personal needs. I realize that we are all busy people, but the whole problem is one which is central to our late 20th c ego-centric society. Up until quite recently people were concerned with their role to society at large; the difference between public and private. Now the distinction is gone - all the world is our private shere and we act (and DRESS) accordingly, and complain when our personal needs aren't met. (Read "The Culture of Complaint" by Robert Hughes for an elaboration on this idea.) We are quickly losing the value that was placed on respect and consideration for others, and I for one am saddened. A little "historical courtesy" goes a long way - Respecrfully, Bob Skiba ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 28 Dec 1996 14:01:18 -0800 From: "R.L. Shep" Subject: Re: crevat? Northshield Folk wrote: > > I am looking for info on how to properly construct and tie a crevat? > > I think I have proper spelling and name. > > Quickest reference is late 1700, I have seen examples in Interview w/ > Vampire. > > I have someone who wants a shirt with one. I am stuck on two points. > > The cut(width,length) of the neck piece, and is it attached to the > shirt at all. > > The wrap and tie to get the right look. > > Thanks in advance. > > Nancy Laughlin-Foust > > shadewescompany@on-ramp.com > Glory,Magesty,Unity > Warriors of the Northshield > and the Known World We have published a book entitled " Late Georgian Coatume" which contains reprints of primary source material, both " THE TAILOR'S FRIENDLY INSTRUCTOR (1822)" AND THE ART OF TYING THE CRAVAT (1828). This is available from: fsbks@mcn.org ~!~ R.L. Shep ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 28 Dec 1996 17:29:07 -0500 From: Sharon and/or Mikie Subject: Re: Authenticity and theatre but >another thing you have to bear in mind is that some artists have to >change costumes rather quickly, sometimes in a couple of minutes and >that is impossible for some periods if you stick to authenticity. > >Maggie Percival > Actually, it is possible to make a costume for a quick change that looks totally historically accurate, but it may not be constructed accurately. (And that's not a big goal in theatre anyways). A lot of times, non functional buttons will be sewn on the garment, and hidden snaps sewn on below, so the garment can be used in a quick change. Sharon ***************************** * * * DON'T MESS WITH TECHIES - * * * * THEY ALL CARRY KNIVES * * * ***************************** ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 28 Dec 1996 17:39:41 -0500 From: Sharon and/or Mikie Subject: Theatre costuming unions Equity is an association that covers actors - not costumers . (also covers directors and stage managers) If an actor is equity, part of his/her contract states that they must attend calls for measurements, fitings, etc. IATSE covers on dressers, not the sewers in a costume shop. I don't know what union this guy wanted, but I think he was full of bologna!! If a shop is union, ALL members have to be union, or at least apprenticing. If it is not union, than the costumers must get special permission from their unions to work there, and they no longer are governed by union rules. Sharon ***************************** * * * DON'T MESS WITH TECHIES - * * * * THEY ALL CARRY KNIVES * * * ***************************** ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 28 Dec 1996 22:59:43 -0500 From: "Penny E. Ladnier" Subject: Re: movies I just watched the new widescreen version of the "Last of the Mohicans". At the beginning of the video, there is a short about the making of the movie. Some time is spent (in the short) about how they attempted to make Mohicans historically accurate in all aspects. You might want to rent it. I had the honor to work with some of the people who designed the costumes. The main thing they kept saying was, "This was not an easy movie to make." The wardrobes were vast (as the cast) and the locations were remote. One designer told me how difficult it was to get the wardrobe trucks up into the mountains. When LOTM finished filming, they sold the props, costumes, etc. to Ted Turner Productions. Ted Turner, then filmed a movie, here in the Richmond area called "Broken Chain." Many of the Native Americans were in both films. The costumes were beautiful and several sources told me, they were very accurate. I am living in the area of the country, known as "the historically correct". If you screw up an event in history, there is someone who WILL correct you. The movie industry, here, depends heavily on reenactors. They are treasured assets. After Broken Chain finished filming, all the costumes and props were sold locally at an auction. By the way, those canoes (in both films) are real, huge and gorgious. Later, Penny Penny E. Ladnier, Virginia Commonwealth University s0peladn@erols.com http://www.geocities.com/BourbonStreet/2157 member: Costume Society of America American Fashion Council Association for Information Systems Professionals ------------------------------ End of H-COSTUME Digest - 27 Dec 1996 to 28 Dec 1996 **************************************************** From ???@??? Tue Dec 31 09:11:57 1996 Received: from brownvm.brown.edu by mail.math.TU-Berlin.DE with SMTP id AA14163 (5.67b8/IDA-1.5 for ); Mon, 30 Dec 1996 06:03:12 +0100 Message-Id: <199612300503.AA14163@mail.math.TU-Berlin.DE> Received: from BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU by BROWNVM.brown.edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with BSMTP id 7587; Mon, 30 Dec 96 00:00:20 EST Received: from BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU (NJE origin LISTSERV@BROWNVM) by BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 1132; Mon, 30 Dec 1996 00:00:20 -0500 Date: Mon, 30 Dec 1996 00:00:18 -0500 Reply-To: Historic Costume List Sender: Historic Costume List From: Automatic digest processor Subject: H-COSTUME Digest - 28 Dec 1996 to 29 Dec 1996 To: Recipients of H-COSTUME digests There are 6 messages totalling 169 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. movies 2. Queen Margot Costumes 3. are you... 4. Movie authenticity 5. Mongolian Costume Reference 6. COSTUME DESIGNERS & COSTUMERS ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 29 Dec 1996 00:09:14 -0500 From: Ed Safford & Carol Kocian Subject: Re: movies Penny wrote, about Last of the Mohicans, >The costumes were beautiful and several sources told me, they were >very accurate. Funny, to me that's one of the movies that really went for current day tastes in the hair & makeup. I was mainly looking at the women's clothing when I watched it (some time ago) but I remembered it being not so accurate. I can't remember specifics, but it did seem that a lot of the designer's or director's personal creativity was worked into it. Perhaps it was the fabric choices. Maybe the costumes were close to accurate, particularly for the soldiers & the Indians, I don't know. On the other hand, there have been plenty of movies with less authentic costumes thet bothered me less. As a French & Indian War reenactor, perhaps I feared seeing copies of the movie costumes showing up at events. -Carol *^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^* This account is shared by Carol Kocian and Ed Safford. Carol can also be e-mailed at ckocian@epe.org Ed is also at esafford@sun1.wwb.noaa.gov . ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 29 Dec 1996 00:22:17 -0500 From: Danielle Nunn Subject: Re: Queen Margot Costumes Greetings, everyone I trust you're having good holidays. I'm going to try and hazard an answer from my (all to human) memory. If you remember the scene where everyone is partying after the wedding, Margot is running around with her gown unlaced (partially), it seems to me, she was wearing only one layer over her smock. The gowns looked to have a definite Italian feel to them (taking into account her mother was a Medici). Now from some of my research, Spanish bodices are described as being "stiffened with buckrahm" which would allow for quite a rigid bodice. Eleanora of Toledo was the wife of Cosimo I de'Medici and is credited with bring a Spanish influence into the Italian court. Now all this was a round-about way of saying that IMHO the bodice was stiffened with an inter-lining of a buckrahm (being fabric stiffened with starch or essentially glue). It is difficult to get wrinkles with the buckrahm if the layers are sewn together smoothly. This also allows enough stability to easily cartridge pleat the skirt to the bodice. Now thing I'm curious about is the collars and supportasses. Can anyone point me toward some refrences (esp. pictures) of supportasses other than what is in Philip Stubbs? Thanks, Danielle dnunn@interlog.com On December 26th Gail Finke wrote: I just a little curious. Does anyone know how the women's costumes in "Queen Margot" were constructed? The bodices were quite tight and without wrinkles, which might mean they were worn over corsets. But I am guessing that they perhaps covered a corset with the garment cloth to get a one-piece gown. It just looked that way to me. That would mean a lot more corsetry, though. Gail Finke ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 29 Dec 1996 18:27:38 EST From: Maggie Pierce Subject: Re: are you... Why yes, in fact I am! How kind of you to remember! I am the one and only original Maggie-Ros, aka Mistress Mairghread-Ros FitsGarrett of Desmond (OL) Mind you, that article could stand some updating since the scholarship in that area has improved somewhat since then in better hands than mine. Maggie Countess of Southampton **You can take the girl out of the Court, but you can't take the Courtier out of the Girl!** On Sun, 29 Dec 1996 02:22:24 -0500 Arfursmom@aol.com writes: >Are you the Maggie that had an article on Irish lenas _many_ years ago >in the >Tournaments Illuminated? > >Thanks, >(and my humble apology if you are not the Maggie in question) > >Anntionette Rose > ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 29 Dec 1996 18:38:49 -0600 From: "Sara J. Davitt" Subject: Re: Movie authenticity Hello! I've recently just gotten into Silent films, and The other day I had rented Sigfried, and Keimhilde's Revenge (a two part story) (Directed by Fritz Lang) and it was very interesting to see the costumes and thier portrayal of medieval life. Often they got it right, though I was intrigued at the use of stark geometric patterns.. And thier portrayal of the mongols in the second film was very intersting. I wrote offthe 'variations' to it being slightly 'fantasy'-since there were dragons... but it brought me to thinking about how people in the past, veiwed the historical costume.. ie how an 18th cent.(or any prvious centuries) director would try to reproduce a medievael or greco roman play...How close thy were to acurate simply for being closer in time, if they knew something that would have been overlooked, simply because it was a later century's intrerpretation. I have a 'sideless surcote ish garment from the 1920's the had turned out reverse sleevesand it was all embroidered heavily with egyptian designs. this was used as a rennisance costume in theatrical productions. could it be closer to correct?.. or could it be even more 'wrong?' Curious as all get out, Sarahj ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 29 Dec 1996 20:22:33 -0500 From: EGerds@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Mongolian Costume Reference The book "Mongolian Costume" is out of print. If you can find a copy of it, grab it, it's a great book! Liz Gerds ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 29 Dec 1996 20:22:39 -0500 From: EGerds@AOL.COM Subject: Re: COSTUME DESIGNERS & COSTUMERS In a message dated 96-12-25 16:01:22 EST, NLSaputo@AOL.COM (Nancy Saputo) writes: << Do challenges ever come up where the designer designs something that would be extremely difficult to construct? (I have neither drawing nor sewing talent...bear with me, please.) >> ******************************************************** If the designer doesn't know construction techniques it happens. I have a friend who is a very talented designer, he can sit drawing all day and never repeat himself. However, even after years of making costumes and having other people make things from his designs, he still has to look at the design _after_ he's drawn it to see how it would be constructed. Thankfully, he understands the need to add seams and darts into places he's drawn as a solid piece! Liz Gerds ------------------------------ End of H-COSTUME Digest - 28 Dec 1996 to 29 Dec 1996 **************************************************** From ???@??? Tue Dec 31 09:11:57 1996 Received: from brownvm.brown.edu by mail.math.TU-Berlin.DE with SMTP id AA17599 (5.67b8/IDA-1.5 for ); Tue, 31 Dec 1996 06:04:16 +0100 Message-Id: <199612310504.AA17599@mail.math.TU-Berlin.DE> Received: from BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU by BROWNVM.brown.edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with BSMTP id 9121; Tue, 31 Dec 96 00:01:19 EST Received: from BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU (NJE origin LISTSERV@BROWNVM) by BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 8570; Tue, 31 Dec 1996 00:01:18 -0500 Date: Tue, 31 Dec 1996 00:01:17 -0500 Reply-To: Historic Costume List Sender: Historic Costume List From: Automatic digest processor Subject: H-COSTUME Digest - 29 Dec 1996 to 30 Dec 1996 To: Recipients of H-COSTUME digests There are 4 messages totalling 70 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. H-COSTUME Digest - 28 Dec 1996 to 29 Dec 1996 2. alt.vintage.sale???? 3. Theatre costuming unions 4. Khazars- Thanks! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 30 Dec 1996 10:35:08 -0800 From: The Polsons Subject: Re: H-COSTUME Digest - 28 Dec 1996 to 29 Dec 1996 Much as it pains me, I'm afraid I have to go away for a while... I'm just getting swamped with work, I'm about to have a baby (any day now!) and find that I haven't read this list in several weeks. Don't talk about anything too interesting while I'm gone! ;> See ya. ********************************************** Willow Polson....willow@recreating-history.com Recreating History magazine ..."Historic Crafts, Cooking, and Clothing"... ----> http://www.recreating-history.com <----- Call us toll free! 1-(888) REENACT (733-6228) ********************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 30 Dec 1996 18:33:20 -0600 From: "Sara J. Davitt" Subject: alt.vintage.sale???? I'm curious is there a newsgroup for alt vintage sale? Or somethigns where someone could post a sale item without having to deal with commisions, or etc? Thanks, Sarahj, who has a beaded flapper dress to get rid of. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 30 Dec 1996 20:57:24 -0500 From: Sharon and/or Mikie Subject: Re: Theatre costuming unions Sharon wrote: > >>IATSE covers on dressers, not the sewers in a costume shop. > >What does IATSE stand for? >Penny IATSE stands for International Alliance of Theatrical Stage Employees Sharon ***************************** * * * DON'T MESS WITH TECHIES - * * * * THEY ALL CARRY KNIVES * * * ***************************** ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 30 Dec 1996 23:25:47 EST From: Juli C Kupperman Subject: Khazars- Thanks! Due to a three day Win 95 ordeal and mail problems I've lost th addresses of those who answered my questions -so - thanks publicly. juli ------------------------------ End of H-COSTUME Digest - 29 Dec 1996 to 30 Dec 1996 ****************************************************