From: owner-h-costume-digest (H-Costume Digest) To: h-costume-digest@lunch.engr.sgi.com Subject: H-Costume Digest V4 #1 Reply-To: h-costume Sender: owner-h-costume-digest@lunch.engr.sgi.com Errors-To: owner-h-costume-digest@lunch.engr.sgi.com Precedence: bulk H-Costume Digest Tuesday, January 2 1996 Volume 4, Number 1 Compilation copyright (C) 1995 Diane Barlow Close and Gretchen Miller Use in whole prohibited. Individual articles are the property of the author. Seek permission from that author before reprinting or quoting elsewhere. Important Addresses: Send submissions to: h-costume@lunch.engr.sgi.com (or reply to this message). Adds/drops/archives: majordomo@lunch.engr.sgi.com Real, live person: h-costume-request@andrew.cmu.edu Topics: Re: Scots/Irish "bog dress" questions Coresting questions again Re: Coresting questions again Re: Coresting questions again Mobcaps & Breeches Re: Coresting questions again Re: H-Costume Digest V3 #277 Corseting Questions - Wooden Busk Re: Coresting questions again Dickens Web Page (H-Costume related) Dressed for the Photograher Re: stupid question Re: Mobcaps & Breeches Napoleon Spinning & weaving cloth 1796 Masked Ball Re: Silk Chiffon ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 28 Dec 1995 19:56:04 -48000 From: Luanne Cupp Subject: Re: Scots/Irish "bog dress" questions Kimiko: McClintock is not the best source for information on "the" bog dress. I highly recommend you locate a copy of "Dress in Ireland" by Mairead Dunlevy, which has photographs not only of the bog dress referred to in McClintock but also of another bog-found dress -- shown in a photo from early in this century worn by a girl over her regular clothes (and probably inside-out, to boot). There are two main schools of thought on Highland dress (we are speaking of the wild Irish in the highlands of Scotland, not lowland Scots): women wore an airsaid (the female version of the kilt, related to the Irish brat, covering them from head to toe) either (i) over their shift and dress or (ii) alone over their shift. There is quite a bit of indirect information on this topic and I expect others on this list may have their two cents-worth to throw in. Hope this helps. Luanne Cupp lcupp@gateway.ecn.com On Thu, 28 Dec 1995 MacRuimmon@aol.com wrote: > Hello all, > > I am doing research on authentic costumes for Scots of the 16 century, which > has been very hard to find. I've been doing a lot of downloading of past > digests of h-costume to find previous posts, but I have yet to find what I am > looking for. > [...snip] > > Kimiko > MacRuimmon@aol.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 29 Dec 95 00:00:27 CST From: bednarek@tidalwave.med.ge.com (Dennis Bednarek Mfg 4-6971 ~BHOSVWZ#097) Subject: Coresting questions again Somewhere I read that basks or breast plates can be made out of wood usually about 3/8" thick ash, cherry, oak or other hard wood. My question is if there is anyone out there has done this and what were there experiences with this material? Also my consideration is that of plywood if planking that is shaved down to 3/8" thickness works then what about plywood that comes in milled thicknesses ranging from 1/4" on up in 1/16" increments? What would be its disadvantages? Dennis ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 29 Dec 1995 00:17:02 -0800 (PST) From: Kimberly Smay Subject: Re: Coresting questions again I've never made a wooden busk, but i have worked with plywood. plywood is made from veneer with the grain alternating perpindicular. i.e. it is made not to flex. i would assume that a wooden busk was made to have some give. also the veneers in plywood are not always solid, leaving gaps which might show when you carved it down. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 29 Dec 95 06:27:08 CST From: bednarek@tidalwave.med.ge.com (Dennis Bednarek Mfg 4-6971 ~BHOSVWZ#097) Subject: Re: Coresting questions again :> From smay@lclark.edu Fri Dec 29 02:16:56 1995 :> :> I've never made a wooden busk, but i have worked with plywood. plywood is :> made from veneer with the grain alternating perpindicular. i.e. it is :> made not to flex. i would assume that a wooden busk was made to have some :> give. also the veneers in plywood are not always solid, leaving gaps :> which might show when you carved it down. :> Thanks for the fast reply. My general thaughts are in the line that with the lamination on the plywood it would be sturdier alowing the use of 1/4 thickness rather than 3/8 or more. True sone is poorer quality with gaps but I still think it stronger per its thickness. The idea of its give is interesting. My thaught is the opposite in that wood had less give than other materials which is why it was used for busks and the like. And carving I believe was limited to rounding out the sharp edges which should not be a problem. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 29 Dec 1995 14:02:22 -500 From: "Carol Kocian" Subject: Mobcaps & Breeches On Wed, 27 Dec 1995, GILLIAN RICHARDS wrote, > > I have noticed Mob Caps in pictures and such from about 1770, but > haven't noticed any before. That is correct. Actually, mobcaps probably came in around 1780, and I would be interested in hearing about any sources between 1770 and 1780. Unfortunately, mobcaps seem to be accepted as existing during the American revolution, but evidence does not support that. The Brigade of the American Revolution is an umbrella organization for reenactment groups. It tends to cover groups north of Philadelphia and the midwest. In their costume standards, they recently "disallowed" mobcaps pending further research. Colonial Williamsburg recently did a lot of research on caps. From what I hear, mobcaps did not appear in Williamsburg until the very end of the Rev war. Hopefully they will publish their findings soon along with some cap patterns! > Any idea when they started? Was there a class and/or marital status > ruling on wearing them? And were they linen? And finally, because so > many movies and stuff show women with their hair loose, was all the > hair supposed to be tucked up under? For most purposes, hair should be put up and the cap should cover the hair. Frequently the cap was worn toward the back of the head, with the (pulled back) hair from as much as the middle of the head forward exposed. Bangs were not worn in this era. If you have bangs, they need to be pinned (or pasted with hairspray) back under the cap. Occasionally a short bit of hair might show (see Hogarth illustrations) but bangs were not cut and styled like people wear them today. Caps should be white and made of fine linen. (about the wieght of a 20thC dress shirt) Fine cotton can be used, but it should resemble linen. Past patterns has a lovely set of cap patterns. They are called 18th and 19th century cap patterns, but they are not labelled as to which caps are for what era. In general, a cap for 1770 should have a band that goes from earlobe to earlobe, a ruffle in front of the band, and a back gathered into the band. The back also has a drawstring along the bottom edge. Occasionally the back was split up the middle vertically and the split was bridged with lace. The front band can also extend beyond earlobe length into lappets that reach to the shoulders. When going out, a low-crowned, wide brimmed straw hat was worn over the cap. By low-crowned I mean about 1/2". In the 1750s, the style was to pull both sides of the hat down on either side of the face. By the 1770's, the brim was tipped up in the back instead. As far as class or marital status, marital status did not matter. Children wore caps. Upper class women could wear a pinner (that doily thing with tails) at home, but probably put on a larger cap or hat when going out. For "dress" wear, upper classes wore their hair up or, more commonly, wore wigs that were dressed with feathers, ribbons, birds, ships, etc. On Wed, 27 Dec 1995, Mazelle Neal wrote, > I've been approached about making men's American Revolutionary War costumes > for re-enactment purposes. I have a question concerning breeches. Did any > units wear long pants or did they all wear breeches and stockings? Some units wore pants that were called overalls. These were long pants, fitted through the leg, that had a flare at the bottom front to go over the shoe. They also had straps that went under the shoe, like leggings today. Trousers, ankle length narrow pants, also existed during the American Revolution. I think they were only worn by civilians, though, not by soldiers. You will need to research what regiments wore what kind of pants. If you like, I can put you in touch with the RevWar notesfile and you can ask there. E-mail me privately and I will send you what you need to know to subscribe. This goes for anyone else on the list! -Carol Kocian ckocian@epe.org ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 29 Dec 1995 11:58:07 -0600 (CST) From: Elizabeth Coffey Subject: Re: Coresting questions again Concerning wooden busks. I have a wooden busk for an early 19th century stay. It is about 3/8 ", and I believe it is out of ash. I have been wearing this stay for over 6 years, and the wood busk still does what it is suppose to do. But I have noticed that the busk has changed shape slightly. It has a bit of a curve in it now. I assume that is do to extended wear, body heat, etc. I wonder if plywood would have the same over all effect. The ash busk is nicely sanded, has rounded curves, so there are no sharp edges to snag the stay when I remove the busk. Also, at one time someone started a bit of fancy carving on it. Could this be accomplished with a plywood busk? ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 29 Dec 1995 08:42:19 -0800 (PST) From: Jamie Nikkel Subject: Re: H-Costume Digest V3 #277 >------------------------------ > >Date: Wed, 27 Dec 1995 12:18:51 -0800 >From: cynthia@caere.com >Subject: Dressed for the Photgrapher > >From: mjschues@students.wisc.edu (Melanie Jo Schuessler) >Subject: Review: _Dressed for the Photographer_ > >>The title is _Dressed for the >>Photographer: Ordinary Americans & Fashion, 1840-1900_. > >>Severa divides her time frame into decades... >>Her premise is that "ordinary" Americans--those not in the upper >>class--dressed much more fashionably than previously thought. > > Then you hear a story that casts the entire basis of > a scholarly work in doubt. Read on. > > One of the researchers at San Juan Bautista, Arch Hayes, > showed me a photograph of his great grandfather as a young > boy. They were a Spanish ranching family in California prior > to the war for Mexican independance from Spain. They liked > fine clothes and finer horses. This story takes place > approximately the time of the Gold Rush. > > The family story runs thus. The small boy's mother went to the > fanciest clothing store in town and purchased a suit in the > American fashion for ther son. She dressed him in it and dashed > him over to the photograher's studio. The picture was taken and > the suit promptly returned to the store. > > --cin > cynthia@caere.com Was children's ready-to-wear an easily purchased item in 1850's California? Did stores back then have no-questions-asked, your-money-back return policies? Jamie Nikkel jnikkel@bbnplanet.com Jamie Nikkel jnikkel@bbnplanet.com Western Region Sales Administrator tel. direct: (415) 528-7114 BBN Planet Corporation tel. sales: (415) 528-7100 3801 East Bayshore Road fax: (415) 934-2665 Palo Alto, California 94303 USA http://www.barrnet.net ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 29 Dec 1995 12:02:17 -0800 From: denikai@ix.netcom.com (Marie Denikas ) Subject: Corseting Questions - Wooden Busk The busk was used to maintain the straight posture and very straight line in the front. Wood (and later whalebone) was used to do this. I personally would not use plywood. If I was going to all the trouble to make a wooden busk, I would make it from the appropriate materials. Those busks were often elaborately carved. Rarely would it be just a triangular piece of wood. They were decorative items, but rarely shown. ;-) One lady at our faire had the busk, and I really didn't see a difference between her look and posture and that of the regularly corseted ladies. Also, don't forget to make the holes for the busk lace. There would be two holes in the busk, with matching holes in the corset itself. The two would be tied together with a pretty ribbon. Giving that ribbon to a gentleman was an 'intimate' sign of favor. FYI - the busk lace is the origin of the little bows on current underpinnings. Good luck! Marie ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 29 Dec 1995 08:23:23 -0500 From: deirdre@deeny.MV.COM (Deirdre) Subject: Re: Coresting questions again If you used a thin Baltic Birch plywood, it would have no "voids" (as the gaps are called) and would have flex. I assure you 1/8" plywood does flex as does 1/4". Not as much as a solid wood of that thickness, but it does. Usually this would be a call for steam bending solid wood (cherry is ideal), but I don't know the specifics of making a busk. _Deirdre At 12:17 AM 12/29/95, Kimberly Smay wrote: > I've never made a wooden busk, but i have worked with plywood. > plywood is made from veneer with the grain alternating perpindicular. > i.e. it is made not to flex. i would assume that a wooden busk > was made to have some give. also the veneers in plywood are not > always solid, leaving gaps which might show when you carved it down. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 29 Dec 1995 00:17:16 -0500 From: PiranhaBB@aol.com Subject: Dickens Web Page (H-Costume related) My boyfriend has created a web page of the SF Dickens Fair. Its address is http://users.aol.com/piranhanet/DickensPicts.html He also has a regular page that has a cool picture of us in middle-class Renaissance garb. That address is: http://users.aol.com/piranhadog/PiranhaIndex.html E-mail him and let him know what you think. There's also a link to my not so historical web page. Lisa ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 30 Dec 1995 21:45:46 -0800 (PST) From: Allan Terry Subject: Dressed for the Photograher Re Cindy's message: _Dressed for the Photographer_ shows 272 photographs from 1840 to 1900 and analyzes them in detail. It discusses them in the context of contemporary fashion illustrations, personal records, construction shown in surviving examples, and socioeconomic information. It is a thoroughly scholarly work. I hardly think that one person's family story that clothing was borrowed for a photo casts the entire basis of this book in doubt. For one thing, Severa is discussing trends shown by many photos and records. For another, even if a family borrowed clothes for one member to be photographed, that doesn't prove that the family, or even that member, dressed in a radically different way the rest of the time. I am currently reviewing _Dressed for the Photographer_ for two publications. I have no connection with the author or publisher. As a reviewer, I do my best to be objective and honest. I do not hesitate to point out what I believe to be flaws in a book. Especially when the author makes unjustified claims, such as claiming a book is scholarly when it is not. I reviewed _Who Wore What_ for _Rags_, and that book contained some of the most bogus statistics and "scholarship" I've ever seen. I could have gone into a lot more detail in my review, but even so the editor had to cut out big hunks because I went way over the allotted word count. But by the same token, I believe it is my duty to support really fine books on the all-too-infrequent occasions when they are published. _Dressed for the Photographer_ is one. I'm sure some people might disagree with points Severa has made. Scholarly arguments are perfectly reasonable if the person making them has bothered to read the author's work and analyze the information in it. But a flip dismissal not even based on the book is simply silly. Fran Grimble ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 31 Dec 1995 11:02:23 -0500 From: RoseDzynes@aol.com Subject: Re: stupid question The Seafarers THE PIRATES, by Douglas Botting & the editors of Time-Life Books There is no ISBN printed in this book. 1978 Time-Life Books Inc., Library of Congress catalog card number 77-91928. Rose D'Zynes is always interested in documenting Pirates as it is a popular wedding theme. Sincerely. Diane of Rose D'Zynes ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 31 Dec 1995 12:21:31 -0500 From: RoseDzynes@aol.com Subject: Re: Mobcaps & Breeches I was facinated with the Mobcaps in Restoration. This movie will become part of my library when it comes out in video. I have compiled a list of "historically accurrate" movies from Hollywood and History. They're actually a file in my system. With help I think I could e-mail it to those who request it. I love this list. I don't get to read as often as I would like, so if my replies are late..... This is the earliest I've ever been late! Diane ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 31 Dec 1995 20:35:45 +0100 From: Staf Van Laer Subject: Napoleon Hello, I have only one question (a service for a friend of mine) about costumes, so it is not worth troubling about subscribing. I hope you can answer my question (or an acquaintance of yours). Why were the soldiers of the Napoleon army so inefficiently dressed up (with high hats, etc.)? And the same for the British army of course. Many thanks, Staf. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 2 Jan 1996 11:20:40 +1000 From: bclarke@metz.une.edu.au (Bronwyn Clarke) Subject: Spinning & weaving cloth I'm planning to weave a simple tabby fabric on my four-shaft table loom, using handspun wool, to make a mediaeval-style tunic. I'd be grateful for any tips from others that have done something similar; I seem to recall one or two people mentioning on this list that they've been similarly mad :-) (Although I'm cheating a little - I'm *not* spinning on a drop spindle!) I'm using a suffolk-merino cross fleece, which is spinning up well to a fine, fairly strong but soft worsted yarn. I'm contemplating using a two-ply for the warp, and singles for the weft, as I'm not 100% confident about using singles for the warp. (I haven't woven hand-spun before). Suggestions from those wiser and more experienced than I would be much appreciated! Many thanks, Bronwyn (who still hasn't had a chance to wear her 1740 mantua yet... :-( ) Bronwyn Clarke, Assistant General Staff Development Officer, Personnel Services, University of New England, ARMIDALE NSW 2351, AUSTRALIA email: bclarke@metz.une.edu.au Phone: (067) 733431 Fax (067) 733721 ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Dec 1995 12:04:33 -0500 From: dforte@trans.csuohio.edu (David Forte) Subject: 1796 Masked Ball My wife and I have been invited to a 1796 masked ball in March. We need suggestions and patterns for customes. Thanks. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 02 Jan 1996 10:31:50 +1100 From: "GILLIAN RICHARDS (02) 716 3712" Subject: Re: Silk Chiffon Dear sanni, I have sold my soul to Lincraft in Australia, and they have silk chiffon for AUS $45m that is to DIE for! They do mail-order and stuff, and their (main office) number is in Melbourne so (03) 9875 7575 and fax (03) 9875 7500. (add usual overseas dialling plus 61 for Australia). Is your dress by any chance like the one at the beginning of "Fried Green Tomatoes"? If the bride decides to pass it on, and it would fit 175cm and (ahem) solid but not fat, (translation 5'9" and 175 lbs) there is a redhead here that would gladly take out a second mortgage on her soul. Gillian in Sydney where it's 32C (90F) and humid - like most Christmasses/New Years! + - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - + | Gillian Richards - Multicultual Ed Unit |\__/| | | aka: gillian.richards@tafensw.edu.au / \ | | Official TAFE bit - did you know Christmas /_.~ ~,_\ | | is a Public Holiday? TAFE NSW - (02) 716 3712 \ / | + - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - @ - - - - - - + ------------------------------ End of H-Costume Digest V4 #1 ***************************** A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to subscribe to that instead, send the command lines: unsubscribe h-costume-digest subscribe h-costume end in the body of a message to majordomo@lunch.engr.sgi.com. Thanks and enjoy the list!