From: owner-h-costume-digest (H-Costume Digest) To: h-costume-digest@lunch.engr.sgi.com Subject: H-Costume Digest V4 #2 Reply-To: h-costume Sender: owner-h-costume-digest@lunch.engr.sgi.com Errors-To: owner-h-costume-digest@lunch.engr.sgi.com Precedence: bulk H-Costume Digest Tuesday, January 2 1996 Volume 4, Number 2 Compilation copyright (C) 1995 Diane Barlow Close and Gretchen Miller Use in whole prohibited. Individual articles are the property of the author. Seek permission from that author before reprinting or quoting elsewhere. Important Addresses: Send submissions to: h-costume@lunch.engr.sgi.com (or reply to this message). Adds/drops/archives: majordomo@lunch.engr.sgi.com Real, live person: h-costume-request@andrew.cmu.edu Topics: Admin note: It's a new year, new volume, etc. RE: Mob Caps Re: Busks -- was Coresting questions again Re: 1770's Frock Coat Question??? Re: 1770's Frock Coat Question??? Spinning Terms Re: Spinning Terms Costume: Victorian stockings? Re: Spinning Terms Women's Renaissance Costuming Cleaning kid leather gloves Re: 1770's Frock Coat Question??? Re: Busks Dressed for the Photographer Re: RE: Mob Caps Busks? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 2 Jan 1996 11:14:10 -0800 (PST) From: close (Diane Barlow Close) Subject: Admin note: It's a new year, new volume, etc. Last night I moved all volume 3 (1995) files to their own directory to make room for the 1996 files. To request any v03.n### files, you now need to say: get h-costume hcos-95b/v03.n### (where ### is filled in with the correct file's number). Sorry for the inconvenience. One more file move/change will be coming this year as I split out the old files (h-cos.yymmdd) into individual volumes to make it easier for Prodigy, Compuserve and AOL folks to request them. I'll keep y'all informed when it happens! - -- Diane Close I'm at lunch all day. :-) If a Canadian Had Said It First (The Globe & Mail): "Cry havoc, and let loose the dogs of a peacekeeping mission!" ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 2 Jan 1996 13:17:26 -0600 (CST) From: Deb Subject: RE: Mob Caps 1770 mob caps: the ladies in my Revolutionary War re-enactment society (the NWTA) have been discussing caps, and don't feel we can justify mob caps at _all_. Engravings and paintings from the period just do not look the way a "simple circle of fabric with a drawstring" looks. What _does_ match the paintings is constructed more like this: (1) take your simple fabric circle & use it for the top of the cap. (2) Add a 1" wide (width varies) flat strip around the edge, which fits the head fairly well. This strip can be left out entirely, I think, but many pictured caps have it. (3) Add a separate piece of fabric which becomes the ruffles around the edge. These ruffles are almost always shown as DECREASING in depth at some edge of the cap. On some caps, the ruffle decreases to nothing in the front, on some it's the back, and on some it's both. It clearly looks like a sewn on separate piece of fabric, because the ends meet where it "decreases to nothing". On some caps, the decrease merely yeilds a smaller ruffle, rather than going to nothing. (4) optional: tie a bright ribbon around the 1" wide band. ________________ / \ | | <-- top of cap, not to scale. | | \________________/ |_______________| <-- 1" band, plus ribbon / / / /\ \ \ \ /_-_-_-_-/ \_-_-_-_\ <-- attached ruffle. More graduated in size than I can display here. ^-- center front, or sometimes center back Here is a rather poor ascii rendition of what I mean. Comments? Deb Baddorf baddorf@fnal.gov NWTA ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 02 Jan 96 11:28:43 -0500 From: ejp@watson.ibm.com Subject: Re: Busks -- was Coresting questions again If you won't be showing your busk to anybody, check out a Staples or Office Max. I got a lovely steel pica ruler with rounded edges and a predrilled hole for the laces for a buck at one of those places. It fits into my busk channel cleanly and easily (I used the Janet Arnold Elizabethan pattern). cheers, ejp - -------- Elizabeth Poole Yorktown Heights, NY ejp@watson.ibm.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 02 Jan 1996 15:16:23 +0000 From: Hope Greenberg Subject: Re: 1770's Frock Coat Question??? TOMBGUARD wrote: > I have made a practice out of muslin and the > sleeves are so tight that I have trouble fitting the coat over my > shirt, does anyone know if this is correct or not?? I had the wonderful good fortune to be at the V&A last month and found a shirt that I had never seen before. The entire circumference of the sleeves was tightly pleated--about 3-4 pleats per inch. The pleated section was set in just below a dropped shoulder and extended to the wrist. According to the information provided this design allowed coat sleeves to fit more tightly while still retaining freedom of movement in the shirt sleeve itself. The coats themselves lead me to ask a question. According to the way they were displayed, the coats did not fit snugly across the chest to the shoulder--that is, there was a definite crease or bunching effect between about the middle of the armhole and the chest. In a coat today that would indicate poor fitting but was it the norm for the late 18th century coat? - - Hope - ------------- Hope Greenberg http://www.uvm.edu/~hag ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 2 Jan 1996 15:30:34 -0500 (EST) From: betsyp@vnet.net Subject: Re: 1770's Frock Coat Question??? > The coats themselves lead me to ask a question. According to the way > they were displayed, the coats did not fit snugly across the chest > to the shoulder--that is, there was a definite crease or bunching > effect between about the middle of the armhole and the chest. In a > coat today that would indicate poor fitting but was it the norm for > the late 18th century coat? An issue to bear in mind is carriage. Modern suits are cut to look good when the gentleman's arm is at his side. I was told in college that 18th century suits are cut to look good when a gentleman's arm is extended. They wrinkle when the arm is at the side. Can anybody confirm me on this, or is this just another costume-history legend? Betsy Perry ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 2 Jan 1996 16:34:23 -0500 From: sunfire@muskoka.com (Stephen & Krista Fraser) Subject: Spinning Terms Happy New Year to all!! I was fortunate enough to recieve a drop spindle that my husband handmade for me for Christmas!! Anyway, being quite new to the world of spinning, I have a question. What do the terms "weft" and "warp" mean? I've heard them mentioned many times but unfortunately cannot find a definition in my spinning books for either of these terms. I have a feeling it has to do with weaving material...am I right or not?? Thanks in advance for the help! Krista sunfire@muskoka.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 2 Jan 1996 14:08:54 -0800 (PST) From: Catherine Kehl Subject: Re: Spinning Terms On Tue, 2 Jan 1996, Stephen & Krista Fraser wrote: > I was fortunate enough to recieve a drop spindle that my husband handmade > for me for Christmas!! > Anyway, being quite new to the world of spinning, I have a question. What > do the terms "weft" and "warp" mean? I've heard them mentioned many times > but unfortunately cannot find a definition in my spinning books for either > of these terms. I have a feeling it has to do with weaving material...am I > right or not?? The warp is the threads that are first strung onto the loom. The weft is the threads that are then woven into the warp. Among other things, this means that the warp threads are going to under more stress, exposed to more friction, etc. ect. so they'd darn well better be sturdy. (For most of my tapestry work, when I was using exclusively hand spun materials, I'd use wet-spun flax for the warp, as it seemed to hold up better than anything else.) Catherine ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 2 Jan 1996 14:34:27 -0800 From: ccary@tiara (Christina Cary) Subject: Costume: Victorian stockings? Hello Historic Costume List, I have a question for y'all and may have more in the future. A friend of mine is writing a novel set in Victorian England, and I am encouraging her to make it historically accurate. She is now wondering what women's stockings were made of during that period, and how they were held up. The character is of the middle or upper economic class. If such questions are not appropriate for this list, just let me know, and I'll stop. If it's OK, there might be more in the future. I just told her that women wore fine garments under their corsets, to help keep the corsets clean (something I learned on this list), and that was news to her, so this list has been helpful already. Anyway, any info on stockings in Victorian England (late 19th c.) would be very much appreciated. Thank you! Christina - -- - --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Christina M. Cary Editor, Technical Publications E-mail address: ccary@tiara.engr.sgi.com Ask me about the SGI lunchtime Needlework Club! Come join us! ____________________________________________________________________________ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 2 Jan 1996 16:00:23 -0800 From: gwjchris@ix.netcom.com (Bill and Glenna Christen ) Subject: Re: Spinning Terms You wrote: >What do the terms "weft" and "warp" mean? I have a feeling it has to do with weaving material...am I right or not?? You are right. Warp and weft (or woof) are terms to define the yarn that is strung onto the loom (warp) and the yarn that is woven into the warp is the woof or weft. Having tried a drop spindle during one of the workshops at Shakertown's "So You Want To Be A Farmer II" weekend this past fall gives me great respect for spinners of all types. It is frustrating to learn, but it would be very soothing to do once one is accomplished at it. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 2 Jan 1996 18:23:34 -0700 From: Sharon Bolton Subject: Women's Renaissance Costuming I hit 3 bookstores and the library today looking for the answers to these questions with no success, so I hope someone out there can help me. This year my family is attending the annual Renaissance Festival with some friends, and the men have asked us women to "dress up". They like those "working wench" bodices and chemises! I know those aren't totally authentic, especially that low cut (I'll cut mine higher!). However, I have a few questions. I figured white muslin for the chemise, and I bought a pretty sturdy cotton twill to use for the lining/base of the bodice. What materials and colors would be appropriate for the exterior of the bodice and for the skirt? I'm not certain what was authentic during that period. Prints? Solids? Also, should I use eyelets or sewn buttonholes? And does the bodice come to the waist at the sides, or is it longer than waist length? Also, I was reading about the materials used to stiffen the bodices and got a crazy idea -- this will probably sound nuts. What about using that plasic canvas? It's flexible and would move with your body to some extent, but it would keep the bodice stiff. Ok, I told you it was weird... I'll just go away now... Sharon in Phoenix ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 2 Jan 1996 17:27:07 -0800 From: Joan Broneske Subject: Cleaning kid leather gloves I just bought two pairs of ladies gloves at an antique store today. I am assuming they are kid leather because they are that really thin leather that older gloves were made of. Anyways, they are a tad grungy and I was wondering if there was anyway I could clean them up or freshen them up a little. Thanks, Joan Broneske ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 2 Jan 1996 18:08:19 -0700 From: savaskan@electriciti.com (Julie Adams) Subject: Re: 1770's Frock Coat Question??? >> The coats themselves lead me to ask a question. According to the way >> they were displayed, the coats did not fit snugly across the chest >> to the shoulder--that is, there was a definite crease or bunching >> effect between about the middle of the armhole and the chest. In a >> coat today that would indicate poor fitting but was it the norm for >> the late 18th century coat? > >An issue to bear in mind is carriage. Modern suits are cut to look >good when the gentleman's arm is at his side. I was told in college >that 18th century suits are cut to look good when a gentleman's arm is >extended. They wrinkle when the arm is at the side. IMHO, a gentleman should have been able to hunt, shoot, ride a horse, drive a carriage, dance a waltz, and fight a duel in the same coat, so you see should see ease at both front and back of the arm for the capability to do those functions comfortably. Think every day clothing, not "costume". julie adams ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 2 Jan 1996 21:10:47 -0500 From: Gaelscot@aol.com Subject: Re: Busks Here's my two cents' worth: my husband made me a busk for my 16th century corset. I don't know what the wood is, but I know it's not plywood. It's about 1/4-in., and believe me it has NO give. It's comfortable for doing just about anything except riding or driving in a car -- and then that busk really jabs my stomach! I don't have it nearby, but it's about three inches wide at the top, tapering to about an inch at the bottom, where it's sanded to a nice curve. I don't think that it looks any different from a properly boned corset without a busk, but it certainly was easier to sew. To me, that was the main advantage -- getting that perfectly flat front in one fell swoop. In case shape matters, I am petite with an average figure and enough of a bust to need support. Gail Finke/Myfanwy of Ceredigion gaelscot@aol.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 2 Jan 1996 18:08:18 -0800 From: cynthia@caere.com Subject: Dressed for the Photographer I received several notes relating to the use of photographs as sources for costume research. We are lucky to have so many "eyewitness" examples of what people wore from 1840 onward. By continuing this thread, I hope to convey some of the mistaken assumptions that I and others have made using vintage photographs. In my own collection of 400+ daguerrotypes, ambrotypes, tintypes, and albumin prints, there are all manner of people. Were I to use the one of an Anglo gentleman wearing a kimono as an example of dress, you would all rightly laugh yourselves silly. We need to be just as cautious looking at photographs for research as we do looking at paintings or fashion plates. We must ask ourselves "What was the photographer or the sitter trying to convey in this picture?" Some photographs are of actresses. Others are advertising cards. Stereo views often show people in comic clothes or naughty boudoir clothes or in the ballroom. These are staged and should be used with care in research. I have several "record" photographs of women in full mourning with dreamy expressions that appear to be proving just how tragically sad they are. Other "record" photos depict dead babies in their christening gowns. Some in my collection show women wearing what appears to be every item of jewelry they owned. Another shows 3 men (apparently brothers) all wearing womens' hats. One can only hope that each of these people did not dress like this every day! >I love it when a plan falls apart! The title of the text should be fair >warning, but not in the way the authouress intended. >Keep up the jabs and pricking balloons and hang on to that needle. >Les Thanks, checking assumptions should be the basis of friendly debate. >I just got the book and really find the photos excellent. I have >not read the tex t; however, one story does not necessarily change >the premiss. I have studied frontier clothing and most women had >at least one fashionable dress. Betty Millsi n Calico Chronicles >also points this out. Until I read the book carefully, I will >withold any more comments. Pau;a I suspect that most women who had their portraits taken, did so in their best dress. Let me emphasize that this was a self-selecting group of people. They were able to afford capricious expenses like a photography session. Ambrotypes were extremely expensive often $5 each for a single uncopyable image on glass. (1850-56) You will see different classes of people represented in the _The Daguerrotype in America_ contrasted with those in _The Photos of Matthew Brady_. When Brady took pictures of civilians he mostly photographed working people. Southwood & Hawes mostly captured society faces in their daguerrotypes. Other photographers, like Julia Cameron, did Art Photography. She principly shot her subjects costumed as "Faith" or other asthetic themes. The small paperback book _Womens' Wear in Civil War Photography_ shows several comic photographs, and gives a similar caution to the one I'm presenting here. The author also notes that the "back art" and tax stamps give additional information about the photo. As a small example, the photographer's name & location will tell a great deal about his clientele. As you can guess, I, too, am looking forward to reading the _Dressed for the Photographer_. >You forgot to put a ":-)" after your comment about casting the entire >basis of scholarly work in doubt. Surely you do jest that this story >is typical of people who had their pictures taken. Especially since >women in particular couldn't buy a dress ready-made during the majority >of the time period covered in the book. >Glenna Jo Christen First, I did not say the story was typical. Anecdotal evidence helps historians create or test theories. Unlike mathematics, one historical counterexample does not destroy a theory, merely point out it's limits. While I doubt most people did so, there were mail order houses earlier than many people think. Check old copies of the Peck & Snyder catalog based in Minn. They were a mail order house during the 1860s. There is clothing for sale in it. Also see Weinstocks in Sacramento (1890), Sears and others for the last part of the century. --cin ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 2 Jan 1996 22:06:10 -0500 From: NeaDods@aol.com Subject: Re: RE: Mob Caps I've just come back from Colonial Williamsburg, and can faithfully report that *no one* wore mob caps based on the circle-with-a-drawstring design. There were two styles of mob cap worn. One was the simple cap - this consisted of a back piece, shaped like an upside-down U, a rectangular side piece about 2-3 inches wide that ended with the edge of the U, and a small (1/2 inch or less) ruffle that goes all the way around the front. The second style was the lappet cap, on which the side strip ended in points that would brush the shoulder if they weren't tied under the chin. Nea Dodson neadods@aol.com "Scarred by a traumatic childhood experience, an adult Dorothy of Kansas wonders why she's constantly falling for heartless, cowardly men with no brains." ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 2 Jan 1996 22:46:50 -0500 From: SyRilla@aol.com Subject: Busks? Hello, my favorite group of people, A question about busks. I have heared all that you have said about busks, but I have never seen one and do not know how one is made. I have the basic idea of what they look like, but not how they were used for support. Please can some one clarify who, what, when, where, and why. Or at least what and why. ;-) I shall list a few questions that just popped into my head. For example: I know that they are they part of the corset, but do they lay against the skin/chemise are they over the corset. I have heard about the holes for ties/ribbons, but where are they located, and how many are there. Thank you in advance! Kimberly SyRilla@aol.com ------------------------------ End of H-Costume Digest V4 #2 ***************************** A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to subscribe to that instead, send the command lines: unsubscribe h-costume-digest subscribe h-costume end in the body of a message to majordomo@lunch.engr.sgi.com. Thanks and enjoy the list!