From: owner-h-costume-digest (H-Costume Digest) To: h-costume-digest@lunch.engr.sgi.com Subject: H-Costume Digest V4 #4 Reply-To: h-costume Sender: owner-h-costume-digest@lunch.engr.sgi.com Errors-To: owner-h-costume-digest@lunch.engr.sgi.com Precedence: bulk H-Costume Digest Thursday, January 4 1996 Volume 4, Number 4 Compilation copyright (C) 1995 Diane Barlow Close and Gretchen Miller Use in whole prohibited. Individual articles are the property of the author. Seek permission from that author before reprinting or quoting elsewhere. Important Addresses: Send submissions to: h-costume@lunch.engr.sgi.com (or reply to this message). Adds/drops/archives: majordomo@lunch.engr.sgi.com Real, live person: h-costume-request@andrew.cmu.edu Topics: Re: Women's Renaissance Costuming Mobcaps Looking for Information--Japanese Clothing & "Primitive" gear Re: 1770's Frock Coat Question?? Re: Women's Renaissance Costuming Re: Costume: Victorian stockings? RenFaire Garb Web Page. Re: 1770's Frock Coat Question??? 19th C. fans - references Re: 19th C. fans - references Re: Japanese Clothing Ren Faire: Thanks! Re: H-Costume Digest V4 #3 Periwigs (perukes) The "norm" of historic appearance Recommendations for this book Re: Recommendations for this book Archives temporarily not available... ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 3 Jan 1996 17:17:40 -0500 From: NeaDods@aol.com Subject: Re: Women's Renaissance Costuming Sharon in Phoenix, that plastic canvas is a WONDER when it comes to faking boning. I've used it plenty of times, occasionally butressing it with Rigilene sew-through boning. It is the entire basis of my tudor-in-a-week costume. It isn't historically accurate, but it sews nicely, and can be run through the wash. Just remember to add an extra layer of fabric between the plastic canvas and the outer layer of your costume, or your chest will look like a waffle iron :-) As for your other questions, you're just looking for something that pretty much looks right, yes? The generic wench look usually involves solids in earth tones (browns, duller reds, inky blues, creams, forest greens, etc) and I've seen vests that were waist-length, slightly above the waist, and waist-length with dagging that extended down about 4 inches. (Don't put plastic in the dags or you'll be miserable.) As for grommets vs sewn eyelets, that was debated about a month ago. The majority vote seemed to be for sewn eyelets. A good generi-wench pattern is Fantasy Fashions' "Renaissance Maiden." Bupkis historical accuracy, but it's a good look and an easy pattern. FF is at 61 Sequioa Road, Fairfax CA 94930. ...The usual assurances that this is my opinion only and not a paid advertisement for Fantasy Fashions or anyone else... Nea Dodson neadods@aol.com "Scarred by a traumatic childhood experience, an adult Dorothy of Kansas wonders why she's constantly falling for heartless, cowardly men with no brains." ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 3 Jan 1996 18:49:27 -500 From: "Carol Kocian" Subject: Mobcaps Deb Baddorf's description of a Rev War era cap was good. She did invite comments, though.... > (2) Add a 1" wide (width varies) flat strip around the edge, which > fits the head fairly well. This strip can be left out entirely, > I think, but many pictured caps have it. This strip can go around the entire edge of the cap back, like in the modified Brittany bonnet*, or just earlobe-to-earlobe. Some paintings do not show the band, but I think this is merely a lack of detail. It's difficult to make a cap with the back & ruffle gathered without gathering them into the band. *The modified Brittany bonnet is a somewhat plain cap worn by French women in the French & Indian war period. It has lappets that are tubes of fabric which give the impression of a lop-eared bunny. > (4) optional: tie a bright ribbon around the 1" wide band. This is always a separate ribbon, not a colored band. (like I made once....) Since a cap is laundered frequently (like a shift or shirt), a colored band would run or fade. -Carol Kocian ckocian@epe.org ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 3 Jan 1996 20:25:00 -0500 From: Yoshi01@aol.com Subject: Looking for Information--Japanese Clothing & "Primitive" gear Greetings one and all! Oh great and learned ones, I am hoping to expand my knowledge on: 1) Japanese clothing (references, patterns, sources of material and/or finished clothing) and, for that matter, any sources for "Things Japanese." and, if you will excuse the intrusion on this list 2) Sources for "primitive" encampment and personal gear. (Personal responses to avoid non-costume traffic welcome!) I would greatly appreciate any information, advice, and input you might be willing to share. Thank you for your gracious assistance! Rick ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 3 Jan 1996 20:41:06 -0500 From: LBowlby@aol.com Subject: Re: 1770's Frock Coat Question?? Since women often copied the men's style of coat for their riding habits I was wondering if this frock coat you are discussing could have been made for a woman? ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 3 Jan 1996 22:07:36 -0500 From: COakley@aol.com Subject: Re: Women's Renaissance Costuming For Sharon in Phoenix, what to wear to a Ren Faire kinda depends on what Ren Faire you're going to. For your area of the country it may be a good idea to be a bit more authentic than, say, in Minneapolis.... Nea Dodson on 01/03 had some good thoughts. I would add that if you want a non-earth tone outfit that is fine, too. Just stay away from purple! A bright rose- or green-and-white vertical striped full skirt under a flowered tapestry material bodice looks great at a Faire. The skirt is easy - take 3 to 4 yards of material, gather it onto a waistband (no zipper necessary), hem it so it stops an inch or two from the ground and Voila! For the bodice, if you can't find Fantasy Fashions, try using a u-neck vest pattern and cinch in the seams until it looks tight enough. Check out Kenneth Branagh's Much Ado About Nothing. The outfits ain't Italian, but they're great wench garb. Good luck! Kate Oakley of the Riven Dale Stuck In the Middle ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 3 Jan 1996 22:21:33 -0500 From: COakley@aol.com Subject: Re: Costume: Victorian stockings? Actually re:garters. Having worn ribbon garters tied directly under the knee in 14th century costume, and having the same problem C.Wood does with thigh-highs, I would recommend under-knee garters as more comfortable and practical. They were also correct in medieval times, but I have no expertise on Victorian costume. Kate ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 3 Jan 1996 19:39:31 -0800 (PST) From: close (Diane Barlow Close) Subject: RenFaire Garb Web Page. (Reposted to this list with permission.) > From: cayton@bibiana.com Newsgroups: alt.sewing,rec.crafts.textiles.sewing Subject: RenFaire Garb Web Page Date: 3 Jan 1996 04:16:10 GMT Occasionally I see posts asking for references on making Renaissance Faire costumes. A section of my web page has info on making mens and womens peasant costumes. There is info on converting commercial patterns into faire clothes and a couple of recommendations for speciality patterns as well. The direct URL to this section is: http://www.bibiana.com/velvet/peasant.html I have been thinking of putting up a page that details making nobles costumes if there is an interest. Cayton cayton@bibiana.com http://www.bibiana.com/velvet.html ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 3 Jan 1996 20:22:09 -0700 From: savaskan@electriciti.com (Julie Adams) Subject: Re: 1770's Frock Coat Question??? >Julie Adams said, >> >> IMHO, a gentleman should have been able to hunt, shoot, ride a horse, drive >> a carriage, dance a waltz, and fight a duel in the same coat, so you see >> should see ease at both front and back of the arm for the capability to do >> those functions comfortably. Think every day clothing, not "costume". Betsy said, >In the period we were discussing, the late 18th century, a gentleman >who rode a horse and danced a minuet in the same coat would have been >either (1) recklessly spendthrift or (2) unable to find a dancing >partner. Court dress for gentlemen was made of silk; riding gear, of >wool. Silk does not hold up well under mud splashes; mud-splashed >wool does not increase your chances of success with the opposite sex. But the cut on these coats is not different in the examples I have seen. Ok, I was being overzealous in the dancing part, but I believe many of the costumes I have seen created of this period in movies and by reenactors have introduced a more modern "smooth" line. >There are ample records to document that gentlemen fought duels in >their shirt-sleeves, since the high tight armsceye of the coat did not >permit free arm movement. But I think you will find many more that are in their full coats if you look closely. Most of the movie duels are as such for theatrics and due to the problem stated above. >The eighteenth century valued formality; gentlemen chose their clothes >to suit their task. We, by contrast, value comfort, and are more >likely to demand that clothes be suitable both for formal and informal >tasks. We have satisfied this demand by loosening the constraints of >formality, not by the excellence of our tailoring. (And, to be fair, >by developing 'formal' fabrics that launder well.) > >Betsy Perry But the cuts of these coats (which was what the original post was about, not what fabric it was made of) are similar and do allow the ease that I mentioned in my above post. Look closely at the originals and at varous period tailors patterns. While court coats were cut slightly tighter in the sleeve than a military coat, they still had enough ease around the armscye to mount and ride a horse in them. Wouldn't it look silly if a gentleman could not reach up for the saddletree to mount if he so needed? The original post did not seem to be discussing court wear in particular. To respond to Robert, several people I know have made these coats meticulously matching tailors drawings and originals and while they may not be comfortable by most modern standards, they are by no means restrictive of movement. After all if you had to ride several miles to go anywhere at all, you have to be able to have your arms in roughly the same position as a modern office worker. julie adams ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 3 Jan 1996 23:10:02 -0800 From: gwjchris@ix.netcom.com (Bill and Glenna Christen ) Subject: 19th C. fans - references To the list... I'm looking for primary reference sources on 19th C. fans...particulary mid-century. Any ideas? Thanks, Glenna Jo Christen gwjchris@ix.netcom.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 4 Jan 96 07:04 CST From: vbetts@gower.net (Vicki Betts) Subject: Re: 19th C. fans - references At 11:10 PM 1/3/96 -0800, Bill and Glenna Christen wrote: >To the list... > >I'm looking for primary reference sources on 19th C. fans...particulary >mid-century. > >Any ideas? > >Thanks, > >Glenna Jo Christen >gwjchris@ix.netcom.com I can quickly pull together most of the Godey's references for 1860-1865, from the fashion notes section at the back of the magazine, if that is what you mean. Or are you looking for a period article on commercial fan production? Or references to fan use in period fiction? Or a full article from one of the fashion periodicals on fans? I'll see what I can come up with--I have seen some secondary works--they're bound to give references....or maybe they won't :-) Vicki Betts Texas Rifles and LSFS vbetts@gower.net ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 4 Jan 1996 12:15:50 -0500 From: David Marcus / Peggy Lamberson Subject: Re: Japanese Clothing Rick said: >Oh great and learned ones, I am hoping to expand my knowledge on: > >1) Japanese clothing (references, patterns, sources of material and/or >finished clothing) and, for that matter, any sources for "Things Japanese." > One very interesting reference source I have handy is _The_Art_of_Japanese_Paper_ by Dominique Buisson (Editions Pierre Terrail, 1992). It discusses the manufacture and ornamentation of paper for many uses including clothing--both clothes made entirely of paper and also clothes made from paper and cotton woven together. It illustrates kamiko paper outer-garments (treated with persimmon juice and oiled to make them waterproof). I can probably turn up a few more things for you when I have a few minutes to hunt. Peggy Lamberson ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 4 Jan 1996 10:53:28 -0700 From: Sharon Bolton Subject: Ren Faire: Thanks! So many people have replied to my request for information about Renaissance Faire costumes. I've tried to thank everyone individually, but if I missed anyone, thank you! All the ideas have my head spinning. I think I'm just going to make a bunch of costumes and give up jeans completely. What do you think the UPS man would think when I answer the door wearing 16th century garb? Sharon in Phoenix There has been an alarming increase in the number of things I know nothing about. Brilliant ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 4 Jan 1996 02:52:41 -0500 From: PiranhaBB@aol.com Subject: Re: H-Costume Digest V4 #3 I am fairly new to this board, so pardon the question if it has already been answered. What is the yardage needed for a kilt of the 16th or 17th century? I speak of one that is not sewn, just hand pleated daily and fastened with a belt. Please include the yardage for the entire piece, including the part that goes over the shoulder. Please e-mail me off the list. Thank you, Lisa ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 04 Jan 1996 10:39:14 -0800 From: Tom Berghan Subject: Periwigs (perukes) I'm asking for recommendations for wig manufactures. I need a high quality and historically accurate periwig . . . late 17th / early 18th century. I need "the best." Thank you Tom ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 4 Jan 1996 15:03:22 -500 From: "Carol Kocian" Subject: The "norm" of historic appearance Fran Grimble wrote: > I also object to Leisch's goal of getting reenactors to conform > to (what she defines as) the "norm" for appearance. If too many people > portray the norm, the picture given of a society is actually inaccurate. > At most events I've attended, the range of costumes shows less > diversity than period sources. This is partly because modern > costumers choose what's attractive to the modern eye and partly > because many buy from the same relatively small selection of > reproduction patterns. And partly, the costume in some groups has > become standardized because some group leader (who may or may not > be knowledgeable) has insisted that exactly such-and-such a look is > "right." I think this is where Renaissance Fair wench wear came > from. . . First I must say that I have not seen a copy of Juanita Liesch's book, _Who Wore What_, so I can't comment on the book or Fran's criticism of it. I live in the Washington, DC area and Juanita lives in nearby Virginia, so I've probably seen some of the same things at events that she has. Yes, there were variations in fashions in history. Unfortunately, the variations we see at reenactments are primarily things that are not authentic. Recognizing a norm will hopefully encourage reenactors to follow it and then do more research if they want variations. Most group leaders I know would be happy to have documentable variations in their groups. But they are still struggling to get members to conform to their basic standards. Reenactment groups also usually portray a small slice of society, such as Civil War laundresses on the Union side or central Pennsylvania German campfollowers of the American revolution. They do not portray the entire spectrum of a society. Reenacting may be very different here in the mid-Atlantic region than it is at the events Fran has attended. I am happy to have known group leaders who were willing to share their research information and enforce authenticity standards on a group. By the way, Fran, how can I subscribe to _Rags_? -Carol Kocian ckocian@epe.org ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 4 Jan 1996 14:18:35 -0600 (CST) From: Teresa Shannon Subject: Recommendations for this book Is there anyone who is intimate or can review for me the book "A Survey of Historic Costume" by Tortora? Specifically, does it cover the medieval time period? How extensively does it do so? Does it give primary resources or have photographs of surviving garments or does it do line drawings? Does it reference were each picture is taken from? I have a chance to get it for $10.00, is this worth it? Any help would be appreciated. I realize this is a basic textbook for theatre classes. Teresa ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 4 Jan 1996 16:41:07 -0500 From: SyRilla@aol.com Subject: Re: Recommendations for this book Hi, First off, for 10.00 what is there to loose. I have the book. Survey of Historic Costume (second ed.). I had to buy it for my History of Clothing Class, and I paid a ton of money for it. I my opinion, it's a good general history book. Most of the pictures are copies of works of art, until about the 18th C. then it goes to sketches to photographs. There are a few pictures of actual garment in each era. It covers the time from 3000 B.C. to 20th C. To me it is not very detailed description of each era. It does, however, give descriptions of articles of clothing that a ONE person my have worn. It also give a time line of events that happened during that time period, and a short history lesson about how the world events effect the changing of the fashions. If you have anyother question, e-mail me. A costuming friend, Kimberly SyRilla@aol.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 4 Jan 1996 15:35:00 -0800 (PST) From: close (Diane Barlow Close) Subject: Archives temporarily not available... Sorry for the inconvenience, but the h-costume archives are under (re)construction as of January 4th, 1996 and most files will be unavailable for retrieving until January 8th. What I'm doing is splitting up the old files into individual digests. Currently, several are lumped together as the old digests put everything created during one day into the same file. I'm also grouping the older archives into quarter-year lots. This should make retrieving files much easier and smoother for those of you on commercial systems like AOL, Delphi and Compuserve, where file size retrieval is limited. It will make the individual TOPICS and CONTENTS files much more manageable size-wise! You may have to ask for more of them, but you'll get them all instead of the current situation where the file is cut off part way through. Unfortunately it's not the easy "1 hour" job I thought it would be! So things are going to be really messy and difficult to find until next Monday. Thanks for being patient, and sorry for any inconvenience! - -- Diane Close (Archive maintainer for h-costume) I'm at lunch all day. :-) ------------------------------ End of H-Costume Digest V4 #4 ***************************** A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to subscribe to that instead, send the command lines: unsubscribe h-costume-digest subscribe h-costume end in the body of a message to majordomo@lunch.engr.sgi.com. Thanks and enjoy the list!