From: owner-h-costume-digest (H-Costume Digest) To: h-costume-digest@lunch.engr.sgi.com Subject: H-Costume Digest V4 #5 Reply-To: h-costume Sender: owner-h-costume-digest@lunch.engr.sgi.com Errors-To: owner-h-costume-digest@lunch.engr.sgi.com Precedence: bulk H-Costume Digest Friday, January 5 1996 Volume 4, Number 5 Compilation copyright (C) 1995 Diane Barlow Close and Gretchen Miller Use in whole prohibited. Individual articles are the property of the author. Seek permission from that author before reprinting or quoting elsewhere. Important Addresses: Send submissions to: h-costume@lunch.engr.sgi.com (or reply to this message). Adds/drops/archives: majordomo@lunch.engr.sgi.com Real, live person: h-costume-request@andrew.cmu.edu Topics: Fwd: Pattern help what's it called? Re: Costume: Victorian stockings RE: Japan Re: Japanese Clothing Re: Japanese Clothing Re: Archives temporarily not available... Renaissance Faire Women's Garb Rules of thumb - RenFaire garb rigid handbags French Revolutionary Liberty Caps Re: French Revolutionary Liberty Caps Rules of thum - RenFaire garb Thank you, please try again! Authenticity ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 4 Jan 1996 17:05:31 -0800 From: gwjchris@ix.netcom.com (Bill and Glenna Christen ) Subject: Fwd: Pattern help - ---- Begin Forwarded Message This was posted to wc-reenactors list and I figured someone on this list could help her out. Please reply off the list and I will forward it to her or you can reply directly to her. Thanks a lot! Glenna Jo Christen gwjchris@ix,netcom.com This isn't for Civil War, but I know someone knows! Does anyone have an address, phone number, etc., for Fire and Ice patterns? They are for colonial American women's clothing. One of my patrons is thinking about getting into that time period (I am trying to convince her to do CW, but no luck yet), and had heard of these patterns. I would appreciate any help. Catherine Wilson cwilson@gcpl.lib.oh.us ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 4 Jan 1996 23:03:33 -0500 (EST) From: RMITCHELL@washjeff.edu Subject: what's it called? My wife's going batty. She came back raving about the costumes on display at the Museum of the City of New York. Then she realized she hadn't written down the name of a certain accessory - can't remember the name, can't find it anywhere in her many reference sources - and wants to know what to call it. (She's got some in her own collection.) She describes it as being something between a purse and a piece of jewelry: a hard bijou-style moulded box, made of various materials, in various shapes (some straightforward, some whimsical). She thinks the name is French, and starts with M- . Can anyone help? Thanks! Lloyd Mitchell (for Kathleen) rmitchell@washjeff.edu ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 04 Jan 1996 23:46:18 -0800 From: "garyewer@poweramp.net" Subject: Re: Costume: Victorian stockings Regarding the inquiry about victorian stockings and "how they were held up," I consulted a book titled "Akademien", which is a small book of erotic and pornographic daguerreotypes (ca. 1845-1855) from the collection of Uwe Scheid. Although all the daguerreotypes featured in the book are French, perhaps the manner in which stockings were held up would be rather universal throughout Europe. A did a quick perusal of the book (heaven forbid that I should intently study the images...oh my!) and in most of the daguerreotypes, the stockings went just above the kneecap. Also, most stockings appeared to be tied with a dark strap also right above the kneecap. I am certainly not an expert of costume...my expertise is daguerreian imagery...but I thought that this sort of imagery warrants consideration, and in this case, is an excellent opportunity to observe what usually wouldn't be revealed during the mid 19th century. This is the full citation for the book: "Akademien - Erotik & Pornographic in der Daguerreotypie", (Uberherrn: K. Gross, 1991) (The book, although small, was expensive and not published in great numbers. A copy may be rather tough to locate.) I must also say that I've enjoyed listening to the discussion about Joan Severa's book "Dressed for the Photographer." She spoke about the subject of costume at The Daguerreian Society's symposium last October and was well received. I am fascinated by the varied opinions about the use of photographs in establishing what was "typical." Gary W. Ewer (a relatively new member to costume-h) Board member, The Daguerreian Society Visit the Society's webpage at: http://turing.austinc.edu:443/users/cwahren/dag/TDShome.html - ------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 5 Jan 96 09:19:29 MET From: "Insufficient Virtual ... um ... err ..." Subject: RE: Japan >Oh great and learned ones, I am hoping to expand my knowledge on: > >1) Japanese clothing (references, patterns, sources of material and/or >finished clothing) and, for that matter, any sources for "Things Japanese." I have two very detailed (and unexpensive) books which I would consider as a basis for Japanese clothes: "Make your own Japanese clothes" from John Marshall ISBN 0-87011-865-x (US) ISBN 4-7700-1365-5 (Japan) "The Book of Kimono" from Norio Yamanaka ISBN 0-87011-785-8 (US) ISBN 4-7700-1285-3 (Japan) Both books are distributed in the US by Kodasha International/USA Ltd. through Harper & Row, Publishers, Inc., 10 East 53rd Street, New York, NY 10022. The first books indicates, with lots of pictures, how to sew Japanese clothes. It provides also variants to adapt to the modern way of life. The second is fundamental if you want to wear a Kimono properly. It seems that it is far more simple to make and wear a Victorian corset than try to fit a Kimono properly... Happy reading. Bettina ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 5 Jan 1996 12:24:30 -0500 From: David Marcus / Peggy Lamberson Subject: Re: Japanese Clothing A few more sources for "things Japanese": Katherine Strand Holkeboer's _Patterns_for_Theatrical_Costumes_ has a simple pattern for a woman's kimono, a man's kimono, and hakama (pleated trousers). _Japanese_Country_Quilting:_Sashiko_Patterns_and_Projects_for_Beginners_ by Karen Kim Matsunaga (Kodansha, 1990) has excellent illustrations and instructions for traditional ornamental quilting patterns used on clothing, noren, pillows, purses, etc. It also includes some general information about fabric and Japanese hand-sewing techniques. An appendix lists a few US sources for Japanese sewing supplies. Some other Kodansha titles I've seen listed, tho I haven't seen the books, include _Make_Your_Own_Japanese_Clothes_, _The_Book_of_Kimono_, and _Shibori:_The_Inventive_Art_of_Japanese_Shaped_Resist-Dyeing_. I've never tried to make one, but I imagine that the hardest part of making an authentic-looking kimono would be finding (and affording) good fabric. Even the most basic kimonos are generally made from more than 1 printed silk pattern, with another pattern used for the obi. If you live somewhere around San Francisco, you may be able to find some (possibly also NYC). If you find a source for Japanese fabrics generally, also noren, I'd love to hear about it. The following are also interesting, though they have nothing on clothing: _A_Japanese_Touch_for_Your_Garden_ by Kiyoshi Seike, Masanobu Kudo and David H. Engel (Kodansha, 1987) _A_Japanese_Touch_for_Your_Home_ by Koji Yagi (Kodansha, 1987) _Japanese_Style_ by Suzanne Slesin, Stafford Cliff & Daniel Rozensztroch (Clarkson N. Potter, 1987) Hope this helps! Peggy Lamberson zorro@netdepot.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 5 Jan 1996 11:41:50 -0600 (CST) From: Deb Subject: Re: Japanese Clothing Since we are speaking of Japanese clothing and making kimonos: I have Folkwear's Kimono pattern (I'll double check, but I think it's theirs) if anyone wishes to buy it. I wanted a bathrobe, and the kimono I made up didn't suit my idea of a bathrobe at all! Deb Baddorf baddorf@fnal.gov ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 5 Jan 96 10:17:55 PST From: Mirabelle Severn & Thames Subject: Re: Archives temporarily not available... Thanks for all your work to bring us this cool list, Diane. Naomi Brokaw From: Diane Barlow Close Subject: Archives temporarily not available... Sorry for the inconvenience, but the h-costume archives are under (re)construction as of January 4th, 1996 and most files will be unavailable for retrieving until January 8th.... Unfortunately it's not the easy "1 hour" job I thought it would be!... ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 5 Jan 1996 10:40:38 -0700 From: claning@igc.apc.org (Chris Laning) Subject: Renaissance Faire Women's Garb I'm the keeper of the FAQ files for the Usenet newsgroup , and I have probably more information than you really want to know if you wannabe a generic "wench". But others have found the costume files useful. (They are geared toward participants/actors.) They are large files (about 55K for the bunch) so I won't post them here, but they are posted in the newsgroup the 15th of each month. I used to not do individual requests for e-mail copies of the files (and I'd kinda prefer not to) but my new software does make it easier, so if you need them and can't wait for the 15th, ask. Diane, feel free to re-post this info as needed. ____________________________________________________________ O Chris Laning | + Davis, California ____________________________________________________________ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 5 Jan 1996 10:41:08 -0700 From: claning@igc.apc.org (Chris Laning) Subject: Rules of thumb - RenFaire garb The question on RenFaire garb reminds me I was going to ask you, dear listmates, for a critique. I recently replied to someone in who has just, O wonder!, been put in charge of costuming for a small Faire. The owners have given her considerable freedom to set rules. The Faire participants are used to being able to wear whatever they want, and she would like to encourage them toward more authenticity. I sent her some stuff, and then suggested that what she really needed was a Simple Handout that listed ten things to do or not do. Of course, that won't produce authenticity in one fell swoop, but I thought it might be a good start, a nudge in the right direction. Here's the list I came up with off the top of my head. (I'm aware that it probably addresses some of my particular pet peeves.) Did I hit all the issues YOU think are most important? Would you add any? Delete any? Change any? DO'S AND DON'TS FOR ALL COSTUMES 1. Solid colors or embroidery only, no prints. 2. No shiny fabric and no sequins. If you're a noble, you can wear cotton damask or velvet. 3. No really bright colors. Especially no fluorescents. 4. No tennies or athletic shoes where they show, unless of a plain dark color. FOR WOMEN: 5. Wear your blouse ON your shoulders, not off. 6. Wear a bodice of some kind (not a waist cincher). 7. Bodice necklines should show ONLY 1/3 to 1/2 your bosom. No "hanging out" --besides, it's uncomfortable. (i.e. "Cover your boobs, girls!") FOR MEN: 8. Must wear both an upper and a lower garment (no bare legs or bare chests). 9. If your only lower garment is tights, your tunic or jerkin should come at least 12" below your waist. (i.e. "Cover your asses, guys!") IN CONCLUSION: 10. More authenticity is better! - -------------------------------- ____________________________________________________________ O Chris Laning | + Davis, California ____________________________________________________________ ------------------------------ Date: 5 Jan 96 03:27:00 From: "Gina Balestracci" Subject: rigid handbags After deleting the message about the small, rigid, shaped handbags, I remembered the name of them: one of them is a minaudi`ere. gina balestracci@saturn.montclair.edu BTW, I second the commendation to Diane and the others who do all the work to keep this list up and running. Brava. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 5 Jan 1996 14:10:58 -0500 From: lrp@westol.com Subject: French Revolutionary Liberty Caps During the early days of the French Revolution some of the Jacobians wore a red "Liberty Cap" supposedly worn by the Phyrigians. Contemporary drawings depict something that looks very much like a short tossle style cap (without the tossle on the end) and a cocade. Some stylized drawings of the cap make it look like an up-side-down comma with the end pointing to the front. (It resembles one of the Hawaiian headresses.) It also tends to be depicted as being on a stick, spear, or even a tree. The logo was even used as a musket proof at one time. This style is probably only a representational form, possibly never something that was worn. Has any one out there seen a real one in any of the French museums? I'm a little curious about them. I know they would be very easy to make, but I'm interested in the height-width proportions, and any known details. Thanks in advance for any information folks. Les ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 05 Jan 1996 16:53:19 -0500 From: Elizabeth Lear Subject: Re: French Revolutionary Liberty Caps I see the Phyrigian version of this all the time in the SCA, and I've seen drawings in Greek and Roman sources. I'm usually reminded of Smurf hats, though these caps tend to stand up straighter. I've seen the modern copies made of leather or wool in order to get the proper stiffness. They are made of two identical flat pieces sewn together with the seams to the front and back of the head when worn. Caveat: I don't know anything about Frenchmen wearing these. If you can't find French sources, you might try using Greek ones. ...eliz ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 5 Jan 1996 16:37:23 -0600 (CST) From: "SHERYL J. NANCE" Subject: Rules of thum - RenFaire garb >DO'S AND DON'TS FOR ALL COSTUMES > >1. Solid colors or embroidery only, no prints. Stripes are OK too. >3. No really bright colors. Especially no fluorescents. I'm not so sure about this one. Bright colors can be achieved using natural dyes. Look at saffron - it produces a VERY bright yellow. Admittedly, they would tend to fade faster than today's dyes, so it seems to me that the nobles would have brighter colors than peasants because they could afford new clothes when the old colors faded. I agree with the part about no fluorescents. >FOR WOMEN: > >7. Bodice necklines should show ONLY 1/3 to 1/2 your bosom. No "hanging >out" --besides, it's uncomfortable. (i.e. "Cover your boobs, girls!") My faire calls this the "3-finger rule". Your bodice has to come up to 3 finger-widths above the nipple. >IN CONCLUSION: > >10. More authenticity is better! And frankly, it is usually more comfortable! Sheryl J. Nance ...one of the secret masters of Kansas City MO Public Library the world: a librarian. They p_sheryl@kcpl.lib.mo.us control information. Don't ever p**s one off. - Spider Robinson, _The Callahan Touch_ (Opinions expressed in this message do not reflect the viewpoint of the Kansas City MO Public Library.) ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 5 Jan 1996 14:06:05 -0800 From: shepgibb@mcn.org Subject: Thank you, please try again! Thank you to the many people who have sent nice messages about the RAGS Web Page. YES, there have been some problems with some of the links. Frankly it would be a big help if you said which link you were having trouble getting so we could investigate it, rather than having to take the time to go through all 25 costume links. We are now in the process of fixing them. Problems happen for a number of reasons: The Cooper-Hewitt is down probably due to the government budget mess. Alamkara is often busy/overloaded or...? It comes from Singapore. In one case we found that the site at the other end had been closed down (no one tells you that is going to happen, it just disappears). And sometimes the actual address changes (no one tells you about that either!). Aside from all that, what the machine says it can't find one minute, it will find the next! I have even had it tell me that Netscape does not exist! The person who taught me about the net told me to try everything 3 times if I was having trouble. It is a good rule. Anyway, we are trying to get everything repaired and it should be OK by the end of the week-end. So try again: Thanks for your comments. R.L. Shep ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 5 Jan 1996 19:38:35 -0800 (PST) From: Allan Terry Subject: Authenticity Re Carol Kocian's message: Frankly, I feel people in amateur reenactment groups should not be pressured to conform to any costuming standard. It's hard to say this politely. But I feel that reenactment groups are often very competitive, and that many people are constantly striving to appear more knowledgeable than everybody else. And that pressures for social conformity are sometimes very strong. The end result is that, in some groups, people who (often) don't know what they are talking about go around making unasked-for negative comments on other people's clothes (and other things), whether acquaintances or perfect strangers. Or hand out guidelines they want everybody else to follow. I regard myself as an intelligent, educated person; I can and do do research. I make my decisions knowingly. Thus I find it irritating to have people (usually strangers) walk up and criticize me, or patronizingly tell me things I already know. Even worse, I find it very difficult to talk to some people because they seem compelled to turn every conversation into a competition. This is the main reason why I have avoided joining any reenactment or costuming group (and sometimes I feel people are wondering "Why haven't you joined our group?"). While I can't really answer for other people's attitudes toward pressure to conform, I'm by no means the only intelligent, educated person capable of doing research and making decisions. Some groups seem very hierarchical, and people seem to spend a great deal of effort trying to move up in, or even maintain their places in the hierarchy. For example, I remember talking to a woman who said she used to enter costume competitions, but she had started a costuming-related business and now she was putting her time into the business. To me this seemed sensible. But she said "I ought to enter one, to prove I can still do it." I was too polite to say anything; but what I wanted to say is "Why? There's no need to go through life trying to prove yourself to other people." Yet some reeactors seem to do just that. I don't understand this at all. For a career it might make sense, but for a recreational activity? A living history museum with the official charter to educate the public may reasonably hand out guidelines for their members; though if they're not paying for the costumes I don't think they can reasonably expect total conformity. I don't see any need for guidelines in an amateur group. To be candid, I think the educational potential in many groups is minimal. They exist primarily as social and creative outlets for their members. There's nothing wrong with this at al. But I think oneupmanship has spoiled the atmosphere in many groups. About _Rags_: I've posted a couple of subscription messages on h-costume, and other lists as well. The editor, Robb Shep, is now an active member of h-costume and any inquiries should be addressed to him. Fran Grimble ------------------------------ End of H-Costume Digest V4 #5 ***************************** A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to subscribe to that instead, send the command lines: unsubscribe h-costume-digest subscribe h-costume end in the body of a message to majordomo@lunch.engr.sgi.com. Thanks and enjoy the list!