From: owner-h-costume-digest (H-Costume Digest) To: h-costume-digest@lunch.engr.sgi.com Subject: H-Costume Digest V4 #6 Reply-To: h-costume Sender: owner-h-costume-digest@lunch.engr.sgi.com Errors-To: owner-h-costume-digest@lunch.engr.sgi.com Precedence: bulk H-Costume Digest Sunday, January 7 1996 Volume 4, Number 6 Compilation copyright (C) 1995 Diane Barlow Close and Gretchen Miller Use in whole prohibited. Individual articles are the property of the author. Seek permission from that author before reprinting or quoting elsewhere. Important Addresses: Send submissions to: h-costume@lunch.engr.sgi.com (or reply to this message). Adds/drops/archives: majordomo@lunch.engr.sgi.com Real, live person: h-costume-request@andrew.cmu.edu Topics: RE: Japan re:what's it called? Re: Rules of thum - RenFaire garb Re: Rules of thum - RenFaire garb RE: Authenticity Re: Authenticity Re: Rules of thum - RenFaire garb Re: Authenticity Re: Rules of thumb - RenFaire garb Re: Authenticity Authenticity More Renaissance Costume Questions ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 5 Jan 1996 20:49:07 -0800 (PST) From: "Sarah E. Goodman" Subject: RE: Japan Also recommended, Liza Dalby's KIMONO, which is a anthropological and aethetic treatise on the subject. (Amoung other things, it explains why the BOOK OF KIMONO, while proporting to spread the word about how to wear the silly things to the West, in fact seems to say it's impossible for a Westerner to wear one--something that drove me crazy about that book.) ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 6 Jan 1996 0:12:33 -0500 (EST) From: RMITCHELL@washjeff.edu Subject: re:what's it called? many thanks to Gina Balestracci and Betsy Perry for the name - "minaudi`ere". If we were offering prizes, they'd get get them. (Lloyd for) Kathleen Mitchell rmitchell@washjeff.edu ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 5 Jan 1996 22:47:24 -0700 From: savaskan@electriciti.com (Julie Adams) Subject: Re: Rules of thum - RenFaire garb >>DO'S AND DON'TS FOR ALL COSTUMES >> >>1. Solid colors or embroidery only, no prints. > >Stripes are OK too. I would say no to stripes. There are too many caviats to make stripes "authentic" for Ren. Faires, especially woven or printed stripes. You really only see them in Spain commonly, and sometimes, but rarely, in Italy. No doubt they had them in the rest of Europe, but in most parts of Europe they were reserved for house linens during the 16th century. How about in General: No smoking cigarrettes in view of public. (treated as an inappropriate accessory..) Nails must be no longer than the tip of your fingers and natural colored. (Gloves don't cut it, they always take them off...) Limit yourselves to wearing 3 favors or less. Limit yourselves to one piece of simple neck jewelry and one pair of earrings. Hide your tatoos and take your alternate piercings out. "Natural look" and plain makeup only, no vampires. Cover unnatural colored or cut hair, green, purple and blue hair with spikes don't cut it. (These were actual problems our group dealt with, and still does...) Cover your head with a hat or cap. Unless you are a noble, no metalic or sparkly trims, beads or pearls. No zippers. How about for women: High-necked, square, or scooped necklines only for women. No princess necklines. Skirts must be straight across the bottom and finished with a hem or selvage edge. If a man is wearing tights and a short doublet, he must wear a codpiece (but outside the tights please :-) - --------------------------------------------------------------------- AND If she is really serious about authenticity: Anyone higher than peasants should always wear sleeves. Unless you are noble, decorate your fabric with other contrasting fabrics and colors. Matt sutash or applied yarn ok. No ribbons, flat trims, gimp, or braids. Natural fabrics and real leather only, no synthetics. No Tapestry fabric! Gack! Pltue! No Corduroy! White caps for women only. White shirts and chemises unless Irish, then saffron ok as alternate. Tell them to read "Elizabethan Costuming" by Janet Winter and Caroline Schultz, or better yet, some of the Janet Arnold books....A MUST for nobility. julie adams, who is in a nit-picky mood tonight :-) ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 6 Jan 1996 08:38:58 -0800 (PST) From: Catherine Kehl Subject: Re: Rules of thum - RenFaire garb On Fri, 5 Jan 1996, Julie Adams wrote: > Cover unnatural colored or cut hair, green, purple and blue hair with > spikes don't cut it. Last weekend my little sister came along with me to a feast. Now, at the moment, she has only the barest stubble of hair -- not a problem under her veil anyway. In fact, better than not a problem -- the word that came to mind is "velcro head". Catherine ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 6 Jan 96 01:33:50 PST From: ches@tristero.io.com Subject: RE: Authenticity On Fri, 5 Jan 1996 19:38:35 -0800 (PST) Allan Terry wrote: >Re Carol Kocian's message: > >Frankly, I feel people in amateur reenactment groups should not be pressured >to conform to any costuming standard. - ---snip--- I agree. The amateur group I belong to is mainly a stick jock organization. Foam padded weapon systems. The only emphisis in costuming is please were one that is prior to cavalier. No real date just style. Metalic fabrics are ok, modern fabrics are ok, (although knits are not practical if you are in a quest in the forest, no one really wears knits anyway), shy away from zippers and nudity. The stick jocks wear sweat pants to fight in for comfort. The Color,(non-stick jocks, stands for the colorful folks on the sidelines), will wear thermals and layer in the winter since they do not move around enough to keep warm. Be practical, we are amateurs. Ciao @}\ Ches @}----`--,-- http://www.io.com/~ches/ @}/ ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 6 Jan 1996 10:32:35 -0800 From: shepgibb@mcn.org Subject: Re: Authenticity >Re Carol Kocian's message: >. > >About _Rags_: I've posted a couple of subscription messages on h-costume, >and other lists as well. The editor, Robb Shep, is now an active member of >h-costume and any inquiries should be addressed to him. > >Fran Grimble RAGS is available by subscription, it is a quarterly journal of Reviews of Costume, Clothing & Ethnic Textile Books. The cost is $14.00/yr (US$15 for Canada & US$20 other countries). Payable to & send to R.L. Shep Box 668 MENDOCINO, CA 95460 the Winter 1996 issue is just out in the last few days. :-) R.L. Shep http://www.mcn.org./R/RAGS ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 6 Jan 1996 23:40:01 -0700 From: savaskan@electriciti.com (Julie Adams) Subject: Re: Rules of thum - RenFaire garb >>>DO'S AND DON'TS FOR ALL COSTUMES >>> Ooooh, I forgot one of my pet peeves.... No fur tails on your tail... julie adams, who is still in a nit-picky mood tonight :-) ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 6 Jan 1996 23:42:45 -0700 From: savaskan@electriciti.com (Julie Adams) Subject: Re: Authenticity Fran Gimble wrote, >>Frankly, I feel people in amateur reenactment groups should not be pressured >>to conform to any costuming standard. Many of us are in groups which are paid by various types of fairs or other organizations, in our case Renaissance Faires, to set up our encampments and to provide accurate and authentic examples of the material culture of the time we are portraying. They are PAYING us to provide accurate costumes and atmosphere. While individual members do not make their livings by doing this activity, our group's primary income is from outside sources and our primary goal is not to educate each other and ourselves internally (such as in groups like the SCA), but to educate the public. We must be concerned with our presentation as much as any professional theater would. Anyone who does not wish to conform to our rules/guidelines are welcome to go somewhere where there are few, if any, rules about appropriate dress (such as the SCA). But as someone who has participated in both SCA and in various reenactor groups, I can honestly say that the SCA rarely provides the same suspension of disbelief that activities with groups that are more focused and regulated. I don't quite understand what you mean by "amateur".There are many people I know who can or do make a living as professional reenactors or by suttlering to reenactors. >>I regard myself as an intelligent, educated person; I can and do do >>research. Yet the worst mistakes I have seen made in our group has often been by people such as yourself. The groups I am most active in have very specific people who have authority to criticize, and are chosen for that role because of their knowledge and tact. Usually someone with that authority has done many years of very focused and detailed research and practical costuming in a very narrow period locale. We have had a number of excellent costumers who have studied other periods/ethnicities come in and make major errors. Mostly because they deemed themselves above our experts and would not use the resources available or get prior approval. Most of the groups I am familiar with have a method in place for approval and review for both costume design and materials from drawings and swatches prior to construction and fabric purchase. Anyone who goes through advance approval is by default not questioned about authenticity. New members are allowed to borrow until they gather their own kit. So no one is forced to spend money needlessly. >> I'm by no means the only >>intelligent, educated person capable of doing research and making decisions. Most reenactment groups I know of are not necessarily interested in people conforming, but for the costuming of the group to portray the norm, for documentable exceptions to be portrayed in similar proportion to what is shown in documentation. While our guidelines provide some examples of average costumes, exceptions can be allowed by providing two examples of primary source documentation of each deviation. In groups dealing with theatrical concerns and regulations of various faires, some of which may not even be based on historical premise, the costume directors must weigh the presentation of the group vs the individual. If everyone is portraying an exception, then whole picture changes. If all the women decide to make a average style dress, but of forest green with black accents, then sometimes a costume director must make some decisions based on theatrics. This happened to me during my tenure, when 7 out of 9 women were going to end up looking identical....No insult to their intellegence, but the ones that didn't get their dresses approved in advance had to get new fabric, and that included me (because I had a green dress made already...) But we do expect and value people who are willing to research. So many people fall into the trap of copying others instead of doing their own. >>Some groups seem very hierarchical, and people seem to spend a great deal of >>effort trying to move up in, or even maintain their places in the hierarchy. >>For example, I remember talking to a woman who said she used to enter >>costume competitions, "I ought to enter one, to prove I can still >>do it." For a >>career it might make sense, but for a recreational activity? I don't know of any reenactment groups who choose their hierarchy based solely on costume competitions. Even if you are so loose as to call the SCA a reenactment group, which I don't, a costume competition win is not going to be what moves you up the ladder. I know because I am member of the order of the Laurel in that organization. There is a lot more to it than that. IMHO, some people are competitive and enjoy it. These people will always compete if given a chance, whether or not it has a relationship to a hierarchy within a club. For those people, competition is a part of their fun. Face it, sports are recreational and most have a strong aspect of competition. The other problem is there are always insecure nasty people around who seem to feel that they are somehow elevated above others who they can make feel bad. This happens in groups whether there is a costume standard or not. It even happens in clubs where there is no costuming involved....And all the competitive ones are not nasty people, many are very good sports. >> But I think one upmanship has spoiled the atmosphere in many groups. Yes, it has, but it doesn't need a costume standard or rules to happen. There are still groups that are not completely tainted. I myself am not very interested in competition, and it does get frustrating at times when people start competing in every day to day activity. But I tend to just hand them a dishrag, ask them to help with something around camp, or offer to play cards or dice, I figure they just need something to do. And usually if they are doing some period activity, they learn a bit about why reenactment groups prefer "period clothing" to costumes. You learn quickly where your armscye rubs wrong or your bodice pinches when you are performing daily activities. julie adams ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 7 Jan 1996 10:12:42 -0800 (PST) From: Heather Rose Jones Subject: Re: Rules of thumb - RenFaire garb One important consideration when setting up standards such as these is to be clear what sort of result you are trying to produce. Are you trying to eliminate certain inauthentic practices currently in use? Are you trying to guide a new group of participants into some sort of defined "if you do this, it's authentic" space? Are you trying to encourage historic authenticity, per se, or are you trying to create a particular "look" for your event. It's unfortunate that Renaissance festivals have sometimes gotten a reputation for promoting "bad history" in the name of simplified dress standards. > 1. Solid colors or embroidery only, no prints. But certain types of prints _were_ authentic for this period. Not the ones commonly found in fabric stores, it's true. But if you're telling people "prints are absolutely inauthentic for the period" then you're going to lose credibility when people find out you're wrong. > 2. No shiny fabric and no sequins. If you're a noble, you can wear cotton > damask or velvet. See the comments on #1 but apply them to sequins. (There was a grand discussion on sequins/spangles on this list some time ago.) I think this sort of guideline/list works best if you present it along these lines: "If you follow these directions, the outfit you make will be authentic. Many equally authentic outfits will not fall under these guidelines. If you want to go outside them, be prepared to research your choices and demonstrate their acceptability." Whether or not you can enforce that sort of thing depends on the personnel dynamics of the particular group. Heather Rose Jones ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 07 Jan 1996 13:29:45 CDT From: TOMBGUARD Subject: Re: Authenticity Why does the idea of authenticity tend to drive wedges between people who are all involved in basically the same past-time? I for one have no problem with the idea of trying my best to be as authentic as possible and I am not at all afraid of or upset with people who discuss (civily) with me, the problems or good points of my garments. I also do not see why an organization should not be able to place standards upon its members. I do 18th Century and if I were to show up at an event wearing 16th Century garments I can understand why they would be upset. I can also understand that if we do one thing, why can we not do another i.e. take it to the extreme of types of cloth, color, etc. Recently I found some wonderful wool at a very good price that would have made an excellent coat, it was purple, so I passed it by and waited for a better and more accurate color. There are others who do not feel as I do of course. I recently let some people know that Mansker's Station in Goodletsville, Ky would be having an 18th Century Fair in May and that they were looking for more people to show up, however, the participants would have to be juried. People were aghast. Most of them felt personally insulted at the idea of being juried. I know that most of this jurying is done to keep the high standards of this site (I volunteer there from time to time and have had to meet their standards before I can show up on my 18th Century garments). In short, there is nothing wrong with keeping people in check. Where did mob caps come from, where did the "bodice" come from, where have the many things that people take for granted actually originate. How many women have you seen at uncontrolled events wearing their stays as an outer garment, as I understand it that would be the same as wearing a bra as an outer garment in todays society (and there are very few women who do this on a regular basis). In short, let us all clean up our act, or lets not even follow historical costumes at all and let's just make up our own outfits as we go along. My ten cents. Robert Robert H. Neidlinger NEIDLRH@WKUVX1.WKU.EDU "The Tomb Guard" Robert.Neidlinger@BGAMUG.COM "Ask me a question and I'll reply, Cottleston, Cottleston, Cottleston Pie" Winnie the Pooh ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 7 Jan 1996 15:14:07 -0800 (PST) From: Allan Terry Subject: Authenticity Julie, When I use the word "professional" for costumers or reenactors, I mean people who make their living at it. I've never known anyone who made significant money acting at Renaissance Fairs and suchlike, especially after they paid for their costumes, plus commuting, meals, etc. Some people do make money as vendors. But vending is not what I was discussing (and some of the costume merchandise is not particularly authentic). Admittedly, the reenactment events I've attended that were not purely recreational are pretty much limited to the San Francisco Bay Area Renaissance Fair, Dickens Fair, and a few events put on by local museums. (I mostly do historic dance, 16th-century through 1920s, rather than reenactment per se; and I have gone to historic dance events outside this area.) I don't know how well these represent events around the US; though they sound similar to ones I've read about. But my opinion is that these events are not outstandingly educational (particularly the first two, which are primarily crafts fairs) and that both the actors and the public participate mostly for fun. There's nothing wrong with fun, but it shouldn't be confused with in-depth study. Comparison with professional theater is not really meaningful. Most theaters want to do a good job of putting on a play (or making a film) but do not regard themselves as educators in history. They often intentionally change original text, and use costumes from entirely different periods (there seems to be a real fad for doing Shakespeare in different costumes), or fantasy costumes. When I said I regard myself as an intelligent, educated person capable of doing research and making decisions, you responded "The worst mistakes I have seen made in our group have often been by people such as yourself." My BA is in history (plus some graduate work). I am often struck by the difference between the way I was educated to study history and the way reenactors often approach it. I was taught to analyze every work (period or modern) in depth, to question it, to actively think up arguments to pick it apart, and to present and discuss these arguments with other students (usually in small seminar classes) who had analyzed the same works. Everyone was perfectly polite and respectful of the other students' opinions--our instructors insisted that such respect was usual and necessary in the academic world. They constantly told us that we should not accept _their_ opinions, just because they were authority figures, and that we were perfectly free to question and argue with them--which we did. It was a wonderful experience. I could not have had a better training in how to do research or how to think, and I'm sincerely grateful for it. On the other hand, in the reeactment world people seem eager to be "authorities," and to do their best to make sure people don't disagree with them. And what I really find surprising is that others _want_ authorities to tell them what to do. Or possibly, they disagree privately but feel conformity is necessary to be accepted in the group. From my observation costuming "authorities" are not necessarily the best costumers in a group; they're often just more successful at group politics. In a more organized setting such as a Renaissance Fair, they're often willing to put in more unpaid or badly paid time than others in the group. Although I do my best at costuming (and the other things I primarily do, writing and historic dance) I am not motivated by competition. I'm motivated because I enjoy those things. I admit that I'm complaining that more people aren't like me. . . But still I find it disquieting that, in reenactment settings where people claim they want to learn and to educate others, comparatively few seem willing to think for themselves. If you do your best at costuming and still make mistakes, or if someone else does--so what? Fran Grimble ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 7 Jan 1996 17:26:05 -0700 From: Sharon Bolton Subject: More Renaissance Costume Questions I spent hours in the library on Friday, looking through stacks of books on costume re-creation. Brought several home. Dyed some cotton calcutta cloth brown for a peasant skirt. Looks adequately aged, shabby and faded. Re skirt: I plan to put some buttons on the inside of the vest to button the skirt to to avoid gaposis. May not be proveably correct; however, I frequently do things today that most people would not do as standard so I probably would have in the Renaissance or Middle Ages, too. However, two questions arise. First, did they have a true waistband, or a casing to tie the skirt around the waist? If a true waistband, how was the opening held closed? Obviously not with a zipper! I can't imagine peasants being able to afford buttons for a skirt. For the bodice I got a hunter green bull denim. Would this have been sewn in our standard right-sides-together-turn-raw-edges-to-the-inside way, or would the wrong sides have been put together and the edges bound in some way, either with something like bias binding or trim or simply some kind of stitch? Would the lacing be some sort of twine or ribbon or leather? Re chemise: From the looks of the pictures, raglan sleeves aren't correct. It looks like they used inset sleeves. Correct? Sharon in Phoenix ------------------------------ End of H-Costume Digest V4 #6 ***************************** A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to subscribe to that instead, send the command lines: unsubscribe h-costume-digest subscribe h-costume end in the body of a message to majordomo@lunch.engr.sgi.com. Thanks and enjoy the list!