From: owner-h-costume-digest (H-Costume Digest) To: h-costume-digest@lunch.engr.sgi.com Subject: H-Costume Digest V4 #7 Reply-To: h-costume Sender: owner-h-costume-digest@lunch.engr.sgi.com Errors-To: owner-h-costume-digest@lunch.engr.sgi.com Precedence: bulk H-Costume Digest Monday, January 8 1996 Volume 4, Number 7 Compilation copyright (C) 1995 Diane Barlow Close and Gretchen Miller Use in whole prohibited. Individual articles are the property of the author. Seek permission from that author before reprinting or quoting elsewhere. Important Addresses: Send submissions to: h-costume@lunch.engr.sgi.com (or reply to this message). Adds/drops/archives: majordomo@lunch.engr.sgi.com Real, live person: h-costume-request@andrew.cmu.edu Topics: Re: Authenticity Re: Authenticity Re: Busks, Corsets, and Posture Re: Authenticity RE: Authenticity Long line bras and busks RE: Authenticity Authenticity and accuracy Busks and corsets Authenticity 19th Century Parasols Watch those authenticity arguments! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 7 Jan 1996 21:28:01 -0700 (MST) From: cwood@primenet.com Subject: Re: Authenticity I have been forwarding the messages about authenticity to a friend of mine who, while not the list, has been involved in living history for almost twenty years, has a B.A. in history and is, in my not very humble opinion, a damn fine historian. I thought, in light of her long involvement with Markland, a non-profit educational living history group that focuses on the Middle Ages, she might have something interesting to add to this discussion. Below is her response. Ysabeau >From: Lisby@aol.com >Date: Sun, 7 Jan 1996 23:02:55 -0500 >To: cwood@primenet.com >Subject: Re: Authenticity > >Yes, I do have a reply, actually. Living history groups are not living >history group sans costume guidelines. If you really do research, then you >should have at your disposal the documentation to back up what you're >claiming. If not, then conform to the research other people have done and >stop whining about it. Yes, we all know that there was a much greater >diversity of costume than is reflected in the historical record, but we don't >know what we have lost. The goal of a living hisotry group is to show the >public what the past looked like to the best of our ability. Yes, there is >fudge factor room and it is used to abundance, even my hard-core living >historians. But there has got to be a cut off point-a basic standards >watermark. If you can't bear to be critized for garb that has problems, just >go join the SCA and have fun with no standards. It's that easy. If you want >to stay, then you have to be true to history and you can't do that without >basic standards and continuous research to improve those standards. As for >competition, some of the best events are staged competitions because they > spur people on to great things. In all my years of reinactment competition, >I have never seen the sort of petty behavior mentioned. 98% of the critical >remarks I received were totally justified-even if I didn't agree at the time. >I learned from them. Maybe 5% were presented in a way I thought was snide. >Most people just really wanted to help. And I've given plenty of critism of >my own. >Ann Etheridge >Domestic camp co-leader >Markland's Viking Camp > > ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 7 Jan 1996 17:28:56 -0700 From: savaskan@electriciti.com (Julie Adams) Subject: Re: Authenticity Fran wrote: > I've never known anyone who made >significant money acting at Renaissance Fairs and suchlike, especially after >they paid for their costumes, plus commuting, meals, etc. Individuals may not, but subset groups that the faires hire may well do so. Some of the faires back East even pay a decent wage. I participate in a group that is hired by faires because it brings something to faires which the faires themselves do not do throughout. There are several groups like ours which do "hire out" for other events. But _the group_ itself does not and will not work for free. Yes, with this money we buy props and pay for expenses and hold private events where we do what we want to do. But they only hire us because of what we offer. If we had no standards of authenticity, we would have no reason for being there. Groups that are not professional in their presentation are not asked to return. And that is true for groups hired by historic sites organizations or museums for living history demos as well. As an anonymous reenactor wrote to me: "I personally feel that the moment we put on a set of period clothing (I hate the word costume because there are many connotations to the word) and wear it in public at a historical event/re-enactment that we owe something to the public. We are obligated to portray the period as accurately and as representative of the period and lifestyles as is possible. The public seldom really knows anything about the past, and what we say, do, or wear is too often taken as the gospel truth. If we take an approach of cutting certain corners, then we are being intellectually dishonest to ourselves, the public, and whoever is sponsoring the event." IMHO, when an individual or group takes any money for a performance they have even more obligations. >Admittedly, the reenactment events I've attended that were not purely >recreational are pretty much limited to the San Francisco Bay Area >Renaissance Fair, Dickens Fair, and a few events put on by local museums. these >events are not outstandingly educational (particularly the first two, which >are primarily crafts fairs) and that both the actors and the public >participate mostly for fun. I find the public absorbs what we present like sponges. I think there are several things going on here besides socializing: having fun while learning...and having fun while teaching. We provide the public a glimpse into the past that they might have only seen on TV, if that. We are real breathing people. Our wool, linen and leather clothing just reads as more realistic to the audience. To see a sparkle in a child's eyes as he tries to lift a halberd, the horror of the audience during a hanging, the laughter as they watch our costumed children strip down for a bath in a wooden tub or the concern of a mother as we discuss our concerns about deseases and health. Thats my fun. I don't need to haul a truck and trailer load of props, cook over an open fire in woolen costumes in 100+ degree weather, or be responsible to show schedules and tours, just to socialize with friends. >Comparison with professional theater is not really meaningful. But even in the theater, individual actors don't decide what they should wear! Someone needs a vision.. >I am often struck by the >difference between the way I was educated to study history and the way >reenactors often approach it. Most of the reenactment groups I know of #1 contain many people educated in history, and #2 do allow presentation and discussion of research (but not while in character.) There are many flavors of reenactment groups. Rude people happen, whether there are costuming standards and rules or not. Any group which does not continue to question, research and learn will stagnate. I have not found all that much stagnation in groups which have strict costuming standards. If anything, research moves faster. The ones with few or little rules grow in knowledge at a slower pace. Putting a standard in place is like drawing a line in the sand and saying "go ahead challenge it, lets talk". Just because someone is educated in college-level history, does not mean they have much _costuming_ knowledge about every focused period and ethnicity. I have met reenactors who may have nothing but a high school education, but who know as much about a subject as any PHd in that area. But the minutae is where it becomes real, to both us and the audience. >comparatively few seem willing to think for themselves. It is sad, but we make information available for those who can't or don't want to. Standards allow members to go at their own pace, and when they want to take the ball and run with it, they have a basis to start from. They can start at the current "state of the art" knowledge, and question/research from there. >If you do >your best at costuming and still make mistakes, or if someone else does--so >what? If its a mistake when best efforts to comply with standards and authenticity were made, then most groups I know of are pretty lenient. If its because someone refused or neglected to discuss their costumes in advance, then groups can be more critical of mistakes. In the case of the latter, I feel that it is the individual's attitude that caused the problem, not the group's standards. I have seen many groups and faires become places where there is little, if any, education, learning, or history happening. There is also no suspension of disbelief. For many of us that means it is no fun. Our group no longer participates in one of the local faires which has become a mix of everything from Trolls and fairies to Clingons. And the funny thing is that they are getting less public interest as well. For all their allowance of magical and fantasy beings, there is no "magic" at this faire. I have seen some peoples "best at costuming" as two bath towels pinned at the shoulders over a T-shirt and jeans as medieval garb. Every group puts their line in the sand somewhere, even if its very general, such as the SCA's general 1600 AD upper bound cutoff date. So what if some of us want to play in a more defined sandbox? There are all types of groups out there. julie adams ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 8 Jan 96 00:12:48 CST From: bednarek@tidalwave.med.ge.com (Dennis Bednarek Mfg 4-6971 ~BHOSVWZ#097) Subject: Re: Busks, Corsets, and Posture A few days ago someone asked about posture aide for a teen with the use of corsets and the like. This brought to mind an old article I had read about a European finishing school in the mid 1800's that specialized in working with unrully young ladies. One of there correction methods listed was the use of a so called posture corset. The posture corset was built around a a solid board the went fron the wears chin down to between her legs and actually rested upon the chair she sat upon. This meant no sloching and actually could even cause streaching to an overly errect posture. Unfortunatly there were no pictures of this device but a well detailed description. If anyone has ever seen anything of this nature or pictures of anything like this and could give me refrences I would apreciate it. As far as original posters question, yes in my opinion a properly built even though not nearlry as dramatic a corset could be used to correct posture problems. And it probably was done so very often in the past. Just imagane having a board stuck down your front and being tightly laced to it. Dennis ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 8 Jan 1996 14:02:50 +0100 (MET) From: Ingela Sjömark Subject: Re: Authenticity > > >From: Lisby@aol.com > >Date: Sun, 7 Jan 1996 23:02:55 -0500 > >To: cwood@primenet.com > >Subject: Re: Authenticity > > If you can't bear to be critized for garb that has problems, just > >go join the SCA and have fun with no standards. It's that easy. > >Ann Etheridge > >Domestic camp co-leader > >Markland's Viking Camp > > I resent that kind of generalizing the SCA, but on the other hand I can only speak of Sweden. We have a very high standard of historic clothes here, even though it is spread from before the vikings to the renaissance. And we do critize if nescesary. Because people who join the SCA do it of interest for history, not because their friends are in the SCA. People who don't care about being dressed "right" often get bored and quit or asks for help with their clothes. I lead courses in sewing and teach the members of our group how to choose the right materials. That doesn't mean that I'm perfect, but I correct my faults. I have heared about SCA-people who wear nikes and a nylon outfit, but in time as they see that no one else is wearing the same as they are, they tend to change. If not, one can always give them a present. A nice looking costume, so nice that they never want to wear their awful "not right" costume again :) /Ingela I apologize for any wrong spelling and grammatic failure. Swedish is my first language. /~~\________________________/~~\ ! oo ! ! ! \__/~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~\_/ \ (Ingela Sj|mark) \ \ Ingrid S|mmerska \ \ Canton of Frostheim \ \ Barony of Nordmark \ \ Kingdom of \ \ Drachenwald \ \ ingela@ludd.luth.se \ \ \ /~~\___________________________~~\ ! oo ! ! ! \__/~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~\_/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 8 Jan 1996 10:12:26 -0500 From: Kevin Richard-Morrow Subject: RE: Authenticity > >At 01:33 AM 1/6/96 PST, you wrote: >> >>On Fri, 5 Jan 1996 19:38:35 -0800 (PST) Allan Terry wrote: >>>Re Carol Kocian's message: >>> >>>Frankly, I feel people in amateur reenactment groups should not be pressured >>>to conform to any costuming standard. >> >>---snip--- >> >>I agree. The amateur group I belong to is mainly a stick jock organization. >>Foam padded weapon systems. > Metalic fabrics are ok,>modern fabrics are ok, >>The stick jocks wear sweat pants to fight in for comfort. > I was going to leave this ALONE but LORD HELP ME, I can't. How is the above consistant with "HISTORIC" costumning???? The group I do reenacting with DOES view itself as an educational organization. We have done presentations on 18th century life to local schools. We work hard to get the public out to our events and have developed programs such as a committee of safty meeting, a military courts martial and have a unit "doctor" who attemts to recreat 18th century medical proceedures. These presentations are intended to inform and educate the public (and ourselves). Correct clothing is part of the impression we put befor the public ,and yes, part of the fun. This is certainly NOT intended as a flame. I don't try to be smug about "historic correctness" but I'm flabbergassed by a TOTAL lack of standards. One more, and not minor, point. Do you wear your "modern" fabrics around open flame? Polyester, mylar, etc. melt into little lumps when they burn. These hot hard lumps can burn into flesh, making what could, in natural fabric, be a minor singe into a trip to the emegency room. Kevin Richard-Morrow (Crpl. Yost Schell) 15th Albany County Militia ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 8 Jan 1996 17:17:41 GMT From: Debbie Subject: Long line bras and busks I agree with the comments about long line bras being uncomfortable. On TV I heard an interview with someone who said there were THREE types of bra, MILDLY uncomfortable ones, VERY uncomfortable ones and then there are LONG LINE bras.(what is the symbol for a wry knowing smile ?) My ribs tell me they like moving in and out, and my spine likes to bend a little in all directions A wretched long line is specifically designed to stop these movements. As for busks - I have not worn period costume with any claim to authenticity, so I cannot add comments from personal experience. A significant point is that up to 1920 or so nearly everyone wore stays with fairly heavy busks -so they did manage without too many moans and groans. I am sure my long line bra caused me more problems than a 19cent busk. If mothers in 18C and 19C thought busk were right for themselves I am sure they would think it right for their young teen daughters. As for the comment about girls "sitting straight at table" there are two important points to remember. One, meals were a family social occasion, so appearance was important - no jeans and T shirts. Two, in the 19c "correct" posture was what we would regard as artificial and formal. Stays with busks were probably the only way to achieve this posture for any length of time. Deb ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 08 Jan 1996 11:47:15 CDT From: TOMBGUARD Subject: RE: Authenticity As far as Authenticity goes there are obviously different camps. So on that line of thought, why don't we make a deal, I will not try to push my standards onto you if you don't try to enforce your lack of standards onto me. We can all have seperate groups, the groups can have seperate standards and those that want a purely social or creatively anachronistic group can stay away from "educating" the public, and the strickly historical groups can stay where they are and continue in their attempt to educate (or re-educate) the public. No reason to argue, no reason to even talk to each other if that is what you want. Robert Robert H. Neidlinger NEIDLRH@WKUVX1.WKU.EDU "The Tomb Guard" Robert.Neidlinger@BGAMUG.COM "Ask me a question and I'll reply, Cottleston, Cottleston, Cottleston Pie" Winnie the Pooh ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 8 Jan 1996 11:06:56 -0700 From: Sharon Bolton Subject: Authenticity and accuracy This discussion has really peeved me, and since I'm in a vile mood anyway, I'm going to respond. First, I am interested in accuracy and authenticity. I want to know exactly how something was done, as closely as possible, which is why I'm asking questions and going to the library. But I am still going to make choices about how -- and why -- I'm going to do something. I am NOT going to spend my time hand stitching a skirt when I can do it on the sewing machine. I am NOT going to weave my own fabric. I am NOT going to my recreations or activities on a horse, thank you, I plan to take my car -- and I plan to purchase my food supplies at the grocery store rather than grow/slaughter/process them myself. I am also not going to join a "educational re-creation" group, so don't get worried. But I find quite a bit of arrogance coming from the posts about authenticity. Everyone sets limits on just how authentic they will be, but I don't seem to hear that recognition from these educational authorities. They seem to feel that since their standards are "higher", they've hit it all. And quite honestly -- while this is off the subject of costuming -- I'd be far, far more impressed by all the arguments about accuracy and authenticity if the people writing them took the time to actually read back what they've written and make certain that their MODERN ENGLISH is proper and spelled correctly! I get pretty excited when someone who claims to be educating me can't punctuate a sentence or spell a word correctly -- or won't bother to look it up. Why should I then take their word for their research about the past, when they are apparently so sloppy about the present? Sharon in Phoenix feeling cold today and welcoming flames ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 8 Jan 1996 11:11:14 -0700 From: Sharon Bolton Subject: Busks and corsets I have been reading _Dress and Undress_ by Elizabeth Ewing and _Corsets and Crinolines_ by Norah Waugh. It might be ok to play dress up and use a corset with a busk for an adult, but considering the quotations from the period users of these items, I'd not put my daughter into one. Seems to me that the "benefits" of the improved posture don't make up for the associated problems. Sharon in Phoenix ------------------------------ Date: 08 Jan 96 10:40:00 GMT From: Mrs C S Yeldham Subject: Authenticity This subject does seem to come up on a regular basis! A theoretical point - isn't saying that groups should not have costume standards as potentially unpleasant as saying they should all abide by high standards? Isn't there room for all sorts of groups? I'm afraid I see costuming as a means to an end - my real love is 16th century food/cookery. In this context, most of the rules of 16th century costume turn out to be common sense - wool is the safest fabric around fires, shoes protect feet against cinders, the potential for burns discourages low necklines, bodices are comfortable (and safe when lifting heavy weights because you can't bend through the waist) and coifs keep your hair clean. As to the question of being insulted, I have found the most hurtful remarks come from those who think the whole thing is mad and dangerous (this includes members of my family!) and don't understand why I bother. (Mind you, I don't understand live role playing at all!) Caroline ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 08 Jan 1996 10:54:28 -0600 (CST) From: FRIENDC@carleton.edu Subject: 19th Century Parasols Hello all - A graduate student on the vintage list is doing a thesis on manufacturing styles in 19th century Britain. She isn't subscribed to h-costume, but I though it would be nice if anyone here could help her out. She wants some primary sources for photos/represen- tations of parasols. I would be much obliged (and so would she I'm sure) if someone could send her (privately) any pertinent information. Thanks! Her address is: EMartin565@aol.com A bientot, Chandra Friend friendc@carleton.edu ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 8 Jan 1996 10:49:52 -0800 (PST) From: close (Diane Barlow Close) Subject: Watch those authenticity arguments! Sharon Bolton wrote: > This discussion has really peeved me, and since I'm in a vile mood anyway, > I'm going to respond. This is the kind of thing that starts flame wars, as is unnecessary swipes at costuming groups like this one: > Lisby@aol.com wrote: > If you can't bear to be critized for garb that has problems, just > go join the SCA and have fun with no standards. It's that easy. There's simply no room for either on this list. People who start flame wars will be removed from the list pronto -- you've all now been "officially" warned. :-) That said, I'd like to point out that I find discussions about accuracy and authenticity interesting and generally good for the list. We must all remember, however, that we're not all here for the same reasons, nor are we all part of the same groups. I, who's one of the founders of the list, am here simply to add some joie de vivre to my modern wardrobe, so I borrow bits and pieces of authenticity but rarely strive for the whole accurate thing. People who assume this list is here to push 100% accuracy and conformity are 100% wrong. Please feel free to discuss authenticity as it *affects you and your re-created clothing choices* but do refrain from unnecessary insults, name-calling and over-generalizations. As the list charter says: "... general discussions regarding the groups or organizations that sponsor costumed events is discouraged. Those of you in groups that focus on costuming of a specific type (medieval re-creation, war reenactment, science fiction and fantasy, etc.) should refrain from using this list for group-specific socializing, promotion, or persona fabrication. For that type of conversation, please use your organization's own newsgroup or mailing list, which has been specifically set up to encourage those types of discussions." This is in the charter for a reason and *we mean it*! Carry on those authenticity discussions in a polite manner relevant to the list's charter. Don't get too far off tangent or you'll be asked to carry them on off-line. Thanks! - -- Diane Close I'm at lunch all day. :-) If a Canadian Had Said It First (The Globe & Mail): "Cry havoc, and let loose the dogs of a peacekeeping mission!" ------------------------------ End of H-Costume Digest V4 #7 ***************************** A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to subscribe to that instead, send the command lines: unsubscribe h-costume-digest subscribe h-costume end in the body of a message to majordomo@lunch.engr.sgi.com. Thanks and enjoy the list!