From: owner-h-costume-digest (H-Costume Digest) To: h-costume-digest@lunch.engr.sgi.com Subject: H-Costume Digest V4 #8 Reply-To: h-costume Sender: owner-h-costume-digest@lunch.engr.sgi.com Errors-To: owner-h-costume-digest@lunch.engr.sgi.com Precedence: bulk H-Costume Digest Wednesday, January 10 1996 Volume 4, Number 8 Compilation copyright (C) 1995 Diane Barlow Close and Gretchen Miller Use in whole prohibited. Individual articles are the property of the author. Seek permission from that author before reprinting or quoting elsewhere. Important Addresses: Send submissions to: h-costume@lunch.engr.sgi.com (or reply to this message). Adds/drops/archives: majordomo@lunch.engr.sgi.com Real, live person: h-costume-request@andrew.cmu.edu Topics: The archives are open for business! Authenticity and "look and feel" groups... Re: Authenticity Authenticity...again?! Re: Authenticity Mob Caps and Garters Aunthenticity - an admission Re: Authenticity...again?! busks etc backboards Authenticity Again waist lines Well-written authenticity comments Book for sale ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 8 Jan 1996 11:31:00 -0800 (PST) From: close (Diane Barlow Close) Subject: The archives are open for business! The h-costume archives are now fully reorganized and open for requests once again! Enjoy! All of the older CONTENTS files have been split into ~24K quarter-year groups and all of the older TOPICS files have been split up alphabetically into ~24K files. All of the older manually-produced digests have been split out into individual digests, instead of being grouped together by-day-produced. All of the original file dates have been preserved. Make sure to get a current index (and new TOPICS and CONTENTS files if you use them) before requesting older (prior to 1996) files. To get a new index sent to you, send the commands: index h-costume as the body of a message to: majordomo@lunch.engr.sgi.com - -- Diane Close I'm at lunch all day. :-) If a Canadian Had Said It First (The Globe & Mail): "Cry havoc, and let loose the dogs of a peacekeeping mission!" ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 8 Jan 1996 11:11:31 -0800 (PST) From: close (Diane Barlow Close) Subject: Authenticity and "look and feel" groups... Another person wrote: >>I agree. The amateur group I belong to is mainly a stick jock organization. >>Foam padded weapon systems. >>Metalic fabrics are ok,modern fabrics are ok, >>The stick jocks wear sweat pants to fight in for comfort. To which Kevin Richard-Morrow asks: > I was going to leave this ALONE but LORD HELP ME, I can't. > How is the above consistant with "HISTORIC" costumning???? Some people/groups only strive for a "look and feel" type of historic costuming. Kinda like the movies! :-) There's nothing wrong with that, provided you realize that's what you're doing, and that's how you present yourself/your group to the public, imho. That's what the first person quoted above recognizes. Such groups have their place in the realm of "historic" costume too. It's been my experience that such groups often serve as the first attractors of interest of people to the realm of "historic" costume. At this level, people can pop in and out and learn a bit about history -- something they might never have done if this type of group didn't exist. From there, the more seriously interested in history and historic costume move on to more serious and/or scholarly groups -- again, something they might never have even known about had this first type of group not existed. In public and high school I came into frequent contact with serious, scholarly costuming groups quite frequently, living close to an area that was steeped with serious archaeological digs and village re-creations. However, my interest in historic costume did not really come about until I saw some silly costume-romp movies and enjoyed some "look and feel historic" groups' entertainments. After that I got more serious and eventually I, along with Gretchen Miller, started this list for all types of historic costuming. "Look and feel" groups have their purpose and are welcome here, just as much as those who truly strive for authenticity. I admire and like both camps! - -- Diane Close I'm at lunch all day. :-) If a Canadian Had Said It First (The Globe & Mail): "Cry havoc, and let loose the dogs of a peacekeeping mission!" ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 8 Jan 1996 13:41:00 -0800 From: Joan Broneske Subject: Re: Authenticity Since this is such a hot topic, I think I'll add my 2 cents. I have just joined a living history group or timekeepers, as they call themselves. Most of the people who belong are older people (older than me, I'm 32) whom some of which are museum docents, etc. Most of their costumes are not "authentic". They have gone for the "look and feel"; however, their group is just starting out and I think they need time to find exactly where they want to be and what they want to be doing. Since I am new to all of this, I've got all this enthusiasm and I want to be as authentic as I can (without going overboard), and I have gone so far as to take up banjo playing so I can be more like the character I am portraying. Some of the ladies in the group think I am nuts. Anyways, my feeling on this whole authenticity thing is this: you can find one source one place that says one thing, and then turn around and find a completely contrary statement in another source. Also, new things are being found out historically all the time (at least the experts change their minds about how they have interpreted said thing) and so I don't think we will ever know exactly how someone wore something or why or in what situation they would have worn it (even with photographs) because plain and simply, we weren't there. Thanks, Joan Broneske ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 08 Jan 96 15:27:26 PST From: Loren_Dearborn@casmail.calacademy.org (Loren Dearborn) Subject: Authenticity...again?! It seems to me the authenticity debate boils down to a few simple points: Different groups have different standards Different people have different standards It's hard for most people to not take criticism personally. This is doubly true in situations where competition is the norm aka what is the motivation for the criticism? Personally, I think criticism should be done with a light hand, keeping in mind that people have often done the best they can given their abilities, knowledge, and amount of money they are able to spend. Let's face it, costuming is a time-consuming and expensive hobby. Granted participants do have a choice as to which groups they join (and therefore the stringency of costume rules), but I feel newcomers should be encouraged as to what to do *next time* to improve, so that they continue to want to participate. If newbies are given directions as to how to make a basic, inexpensive costume that conforms to the group's standards I think they will given half a chance. Specific to Ren Faire, it strikes me some of the comments re tails, fairies, vampires, and Klingons refer more to the public than the Faire workers. I don't know about you, but I've never seen anyone *working* at Faire with any of the above (although I have seen some to the other things mentioned...). Are people taking issue with what the public wears as well? Just curious (sound of another can of worms being opened...) In the end I think we may all have to agree to disagree on this one, eh folks? ;-) Cheers, Loren Dearborn ldearborn@calacademy.org ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 8 Jan 1996 19:33:27 -0800 From: gwjchris@ix.netcom.com (Bill and Glenna Christen ) Subject: Re: Authenticity Joan... You wrote: > >Anyways, my feeling on this whole authenticity thing is this: you can >find one source one place that says one thing, and then turn around and find a completely contrary statement in another source. Also, new >things are being found out historically all the time (at least the >experts change their minds about how they have interpreted said thing) >and so I don't think we will ever know exactly how someone wore >something or why or in what situation they would have worn it (even with photographs) because plain and simply, we weren't there. This is true (IMO), but that doesn't mean we stop trying if that is what we chose to do any more than scientists stop trying to understand whatever aspect of science they are researching. Juanita Leisch made the statement at a presentation she was giving regarding research. "Keep looking until your sources start to agree." That doesn't mean you stop there, but it is a far better indicator of the likely reality of what you are researching. No, we can't step into a time machine and go back and know for sure, but we can keep trying to come as close as we can to the way it was. This is obviously from someone who is pro accuracy for myself. I can't be authentic as I was born in the 20th century and I don't wear authentic clothes as they are rare and irreplacable originals, but I do strive to be as accurate as I can and that standard is ever shifting as I learn more. That's my "fun" just as "look and feel" is fun for others. Glenna Jo "from the peanut gallery" Christen LHS, LSFS, MSAS & HSP gwjchris@ix.netcom.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 8 Jan 1996 22:42:44 -0500 From: NeenH@aol.com Subject: Mob Caps and Garters The "movies and stuff" generally get women's clothing wrong, most especially the stays and caps. I can't comment of the authenticity of the Mob caps people generally wear. But, here is how it's done: A drawstring or tape is used, sometimes the gathers are stitched permanently in...a drawstring works MUCH better than elastic, btw, it won't keep sliding up. You can't wear your hair loose and tuck it into a mob cap, it won't stay. Even a braid won't stay tucked in (I have tried). That works much better with a regular cap. Regular caps are much more comfortable than mob caps, if harder to make. The hair stays in pretty well when you have bonnet strings, tie them behind your neck, under your hair. Mount the strings slightly farther back than you would normally. Make all caps with back gathers with a casing and drawstring instead of stitched gathers, and make sure its drawstring, as well as a mob cap's (and chemise's, etc) drawstring is long enough to fully stretch the garment flat. Knot the ends together in a slip knot before laundering (make sure that it slips in such a way so that pulling the little end makes the loop smaller). Makes laundering and ironing much easier. And use spray strach...the secret is to turn on the iron, spray each item that you need, all of them at once, then press. It takes about 2 minutes for the starch to pentetrate before you heat it so it will not leave a white powder or gunk, and will actually work well. Garters: Above the knee garters WILL NOT work at all on me. My thighs are way too fat. Below the knee garters work great, I even wear my 18th socks as knee socks with garters (I fold the socks over so they ride just below my knee) with my modern demin skirts...I hate nylons. An important garter trick: find the center of your tape (it must be long enough to go around TWICE and still have enough left to tie in a bow), put that on the front of you knee, wrap both end behind and around to the front, adjust so that one finger fits under the first pass, the secon can be a little tighter and tie. Fine tune to your liking (just tight enough to not bother you when kneeling is my rule). I learned this from Sarah Morton's Day, a wonderful book put out my Plimouth Plantation for little kids, a photo book following an 11 year old interpreter on the plantation. (the newer companion book, Samual Iforget his last name's Day is good, too). This double wrapping works just as well for hair ribbons! They stay in MUCH better. Ever since I've learned this, my kids have had nice, neat ankles, with no complaints about tight garters. All this works better with the socks folded over the garters...which we do, as they don't show. Colleen and my experience with keeping hats and garters on me and 3 little kids... ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 09 Jan 1996 14:44:03 +1000 From: Sarah Randles Subject: Aunthenticity - an admission Since I'm principally an embroiderer, costume is for me, like Caroline, a means to an end. But I do make costumes and wear them, and I am concerned about accuracy. The admission that I have to make though, is that none of my costumes are as accurate as _I_ would like them to be. (Whether they are as accurate as others would like is another question.) Sometimes (rarely) this is a result of deliberate choice, more often because of financial decision, and most frequently because of time constraints. One day I will make the handwoven, hand sewn, cut entirely to documentable patterns, dyed with period dyes, accessorised with handmade, period shoes, belt and head-dress costume, although I suspect it won't be until I retire in another 35 years. In the meantime, I need something to wear to play with the group, I want to play with and that means making compromises. (This is not helped by the fact that I keep changing shape.) Since I don't attempt to 'educate' the outside world, nor do I get paid for my efforts, I think these compromises are acceptable. If the group did these activities, I couldn't make the grade and I wouldn't play. However, I do not support a laissez-faire attitude to costume for re-enactment. I believe that there should be a standard for historic costume, in which costumes do not _easily_ jar the eye and remind the viewer of the 20th century. But since I think that even the best of historic costumers should admit that authenticity ideals are elusive, we should be aware that standards may take time to achieve. And by all means, play with the group that has the ideals closest to your own. Sarah **************************************************************************** ******** Sarah Randles ser@adminserver.canberra.edu.au Research Office Phone: (06) 201 2955 University of Canberra Fax: (06) 201 5381/5999 ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 8 Jan 1996 20:01:01 -0700 From: savaskan@electriciti.com (Julie Adams) Subject: Re: Authenticity...again?! Loren, excellent post! > Specific to Ren Faire, it strikes me some of the comments re > tails, fairies, vampires, and Klingons refer more to the > public than the Faire workers. I don't know about you, > but I've never seen anyone *working* at Faire with any of > the above (although I have seen some to the other things > mentioned...). Are people taking issue with what the public > wears as well? Just curious (sound of another can of > worms being opened...) No, I was referring to a small local faire that started out as a Rennaissance Faire and now has become a Fantasy Faire with a Ren/Medieval base. At this faire, I was talking about the workers, not the public. IMHO paying customers can, will and should wear whatever they choose. But I think this particular faire has lost a lot due to a lack of direction. The customers mostly seem confused. julie ------------------------------ Date: 09 Jan 96 04:40:33 EST From: Dee <100545.3105@compuserve.com> Subject: busks etc At 11:11 08/01/96 -0700, Sharon wrote: >I have been reading _Dress and Undress_ by Elizabeth Ewing and _Corsets and >Crinolines_ by Norah Waugh........., but considering the quotations from the >period users of these items, I'd not put my daughter into one. Seems to me >that the "benefits" of the improved posture don't make up for the associated >problems. > >Sharon in Phoenix I assume the problems are those of deforming the body,limiting lung capacity and preventing overeating ? I agree that we might well see "problems" with children in corsets. However, these problems were not so evident in the 19C, so they just carried on and did it, probably admiring the results. Perhaps in 100 years time people will see problems with "good" things of 1996 - jeans, vitamin pills and gym sessions ? Today we on children having their jabs against various diseases -we think it right today although we know there are some harmful side effects. Is it the same with corsets ? Dee ------------------------------ Date: 09 Jan 96 05:32:33 EST From: Dee <100545.3105@compuserve.com> Subject: backboards Someone mentioned 19Cent backboards. From my research there were three distinct types The "bed" type which you lay on - although unpadded it was just a plank of wood. Ironing boards and dining room tables have been pressed into service (sorry - pun) for this. The "strap on the back" type which was a triangle of wood, apex downwards. The top two corners had straps which went round each shoulder. The lower corner had a strap which went around the waist. The "Two handled" variety which was a circle of wood the size of a dinner plate with two "broom handles" at each side. The wearer held it across the back with elbows down and hands up, palms forward. If you try it with a broom handle you will get some of the effect, but you miss the centre section pushing the shoulder blades flat. When I tried it 5 mins was OK, after 10 it was getting very uncomfortable An hour a day is mentioned as the 19c norm. But the end justifies the means ? The latter two types were used to teach carriage, and from what I understand they were thought to be effective, although there are references to the discomfort - "the misery of the backboard". In 1880 a woman is described as having good carriage because she was "well backboarded when young". Today we have to expect a learning process for high heels, applying make up, sitting in a short skirt. And we accept pain when we go to the gym after a long break.....we haven't changed really. Dee ------------------------------ Date: 09 Jan 96 17:41:00 GMT From: Mrs C S Yeldham Subject: Authenticity Again Trying to avoid flames (I rather like it cool!), just one final comment from this end. Those of us working in the public eye do, I think, have a duty to ourselves and to each other to do the best we can. It may be hurtful when someone says something nasty about us, but it is worse for us and for our hobby (or profession) when someone goes away from an event saying we got it badly wrong and they could see the 20th century bits. Some people are always bound to say this (and that we look like idiots) but we should try to minimise these numbers. For those of us working in public, its the punters putting up money who are crucial, and if too many feel cheated by poor standards and ignorance, then they will stop paying. I am always delighted when I hear about someone who thought an event would look stupid and be embarrassing, but that they were impressed in spite of themselves, because of the care we take and are seen to take (it happens!). Secondly, a quick response to Joan. Not just costuming, but History itself is unknowable. I will quote EH Carr 'What is History' again on this, who says that studying history is an act of the imagination. The point is to discipline the imagination with facts, and to try again and again to get closer to the unknowable, knowing the 'truth' can never be achieved. Sounds rather Zen put like that! Caroline ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 Jan 96 11:57:01 PST From: ches@tristero.io.com Subject: waist lines I am looking at a portrait, (in 20,000 Years of Fashion), by L. Cranach: Portrait of Sybilla of Cleves. I notice that the waist line is along the natural waist as opposed to the coming to a point over the belly button. All other portraits of the period, (1525?), do not have natural lines on the waist. My question is this: is this just artistic licence or is this an accurate representation? Ciao @}\ Ches @}----`--,-- http://www.io.com/~ches/ @}/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 09 Jan 96 13:52:00 PST From: "Tobey, Pam" Subject: Well-written authenticity comments I have been enjoying most of the authenticity posts as I do most of the postings on this list. There are a lot of articulate arguments for all sides out there. I haven't yet made a full historic costume yet, but I will probably strive for authenticity, as I have done on my smaller projects so far. I have gathered so much excellent advice and information here to get me started on a full costume. But since I sew "work" clothes, I can appreciate why someone would want a few shortcuts and money-savers, like using a sewing machine or plastic notions, whether or not I do the same myself. I enjoy seeing the "look and feel" performances as well as authentic ones, but my favorites times are when I get to Williamsburg and get to talk to the costumers, peruke makers and silversmiths about what they do and how they get their authenticity. Please keep up the well-written commentaries. (I trash the angry, nasty ones and have saved a few of the well-written ones.) I learn from everyone. Thank you for your well-expressed comments of differing opinion: Julie Adams, Fran Grimble, Robert Neidlinger and Diane Close, to name a few. And now to get my real job done (despite the snow) so I can fund my interest in needlework, history and costume! Tobey (Ptobey@washpost.com) (Disclaimer: my comments are strictly my own and are not those of my employer) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Jan 1996 08:34:10 -0800 (PST) From: Allan Terry Subject: Book for sale I recently reviewed _Dressed for the Photographer: Ordinary Americans and Fashion 1840-1900_ for two publications, and have an extra copy to dispose of. The book consists of 272 photos of women, men, children, and groups. it has in-depth descriptions of all the outfits shown, plus book and chapter introductions that overview styles and influences on dress. The author is Joan Severa and the publisher is Kent State University Press. The book is hardcover with a cloth binding, 592 pages long, and weighs 6 pounds. The retail price is $60. This copy has been read once but is in fine shape. I'm willing to sell it for $40 including shipping book post. If anyone is interested, please send email to aterry@teknowledge.com Fran Grimble ------------------------------ End of H-Costume Digest V4 #8 ***************************** A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to subscribe to that instead, send the command lines: unsubscribe h-costume-digest subscribe h-costume end in the body of a message to majordomo@lunch.engr.sgi.com. Thanks and enjoy the list!