From: owner-h-costume-digest (H-Costume Digest) To: h-costume-digest@lunch.engr.sgi.com Subject: H-Costume Digest V4 #9 Reply-To: h-costume Sender: owner-h-costume-digest@lunch.engr.sgi.com Errors-To: owner-h-costume-digest@lunch.engr.sgi.com Precedence: bulk H-Costume Digest Thursday, January 11 1996 Volume 4, Number 9 Compilation copyright (C) 1995 Diane Barlow Close and Gretchen Miller Use in whole prohibited. Individual articles are the property of the author. Seek permission from that author before reprinting or quoting elsewhere. Important Addresses: Send submissions to: h-costume@lunch.engr.sgi.com (or reply to this message). Adds/drops/archives: majordomo@lunch.engr.sgi.com Real, live person: h-costume-request@andrew.cmu.edu Topics: Re: busks etc More on authenticity Cotehardie Pictures? Mens Tights authenticity, part 1 authenticity, part 2 RE: Authenticity Re: Cotehardie Pictures? Re: waist lines Authenticity/Fire hazards nit-picking leather Fan research Re: busks etc ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 10 Jan 1996 12:17:51 +0000 (GMT) From: Dorothy Stein Subject: Re: busks etc I suppose I am somewhat disturbed by the increasingly freer use of the argument that because certain beliefs and/or practices were acceptable then, while we disapprove of them now, so at some time in the future, our own practices, beliefs, etc., will be similarly rejected. The argument almost implies that no real harm was done. In the matter of busks and tight corseting and lacing, there were many critics and campaigners against in the 19th century and before. Doctors worried about 'corset liver'. Mary Somerville (the science writer after whom Somerville College of Oxford University was named), write of her horror of girls' schools (such as that in which she had been a pupil) where the girls were confined in painful harnesses and expected to study and learn in that situation. More generally, it is important to examine each custom and belief with respect to the rationale behind it and to decide whether it was actually effective or not, and whether it had deplorable side effects that overrode any benefits. For example, busks may have served the purpose of making women sexually more attractive by the standards of the time, but at a cost of suffering and limited lives for the women involved. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Jan 1996 08:29:05 -0800 (PST) From: Allan Terry Subject: More on authenticity Re Julie's message: Actually, comparison of professional theater actors' costumes with reenactment ones is still not meaningful. The costume designer may have a vision. But the actors who must wear the costumes are not required to make them, pay for them, or assume any responsibility for how they look. Without disparaging the quality of Julie's group (which I know nothing about), a professional activity is one the employees get paid for. And paid a significant amount of money over and above the group's or the person's expenses. As for responsibility to the public, if event sponsors are concerned about this they should pay performing groups enough to meet the required standards and still pay the individual performers. Frankly, I'm convinced some sponsors could pay more then they do. In the business world (event sponsors and even museums are businesses) you tend to get what you pay for. If someone has costuming or acting skills good enough to merit pay, they will gravitate toward the best-paying jobs. A sponsor who hires employees at no or very low pay will not, on the whole, get the best employees. This is not to say that there are not excellent amateur costumers--as well as beginners and people who primarily wish to pursue reenactment activities rather than make costumes. However, a person with enough skill to earn good pay, who chooses to work in an environment that does not provide it, usually does so because that environment provides more flexibility and less responsibility than a paying job. If the amateur costumer wishes, he or she can choose to invest a great deal of money and time. But the same costumer also has the freedom to invest the money in his/her dental bills and the time in meeting a schedule crunch at his/her paying job. A salary is what gives an employer the right to tell employees what to do. I feel the kind of close supervision Julie describes is appropriate only for a professional costume shop with paid employees. In a reenactment situation, this is exactly the kind of group pressure to conform I was complaining about. Julie must be right in saying some people like it, or they wouldn't join the group. Personally, in my profession as a writer, I wouldn't work for an employer who micromanaged me like that. Thankfully none of them have thought it necessary. On a slightly different topic, Julie mentioned that a history degree doesn't guarantee knowledge of costume. Which is true--I've been doing costume research for over 20 years, and I didn't do any of it in my formal history classes. As a college student I quickly found out my history professors were not focusing on what people wore. But that's not the point. The point is, the purpose of our studies was not to memorize facts, but to learn research techniques. One of the most important was not to automatically accept information handed down by an authority figure. Fran Grimble ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Jan 1996 17:44:10 -0500 From: sunfire@muskoka.com (Stephen & Krista Fraser) Subject: Cotehardie Pictures? Hi! Does anyone have a picture showing detail of a cotehardie on their web page, or can someone suggest where I might find one on the net? I have a cotehardie pattern, but there aren't any buttons on it, and I'm starting to wonder if it really is period or not. It has elbow length sleeves with tippets and it cross-laces up the front. The instructions say it is a late 14th Century design. I noticed all the talk about cotehardies and buttons and wondered why this pattern didn't indicate any. I realize that I could change the pattern, but I'd like some reference to go by for this. Did cotehardies use buttons as decorations only, or were they functional? Also the cotehardie pattern looks like a dress more than an outer garment, however they show a kirtle being worn beneath. Is this what they were like or what? I'm a little confused. Your help would be greatly appreciated. Thanks! Krista sunfire@muskoka.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Jan 1996 17:44:13 -0500 From: sunfire@muskoka.com (Stephen & Krista Fraser) Subject: Mens Tights Ok...now for question number two... My husband wears tights for SCA events, looks GREAT in them...BUT...I know that an awful lot of people don't care for the cotton/spandex brand of today's tights for historical recreational wear. Suggestions?? I'd like to know what material would be more appropriate to use for leggings, something that could still be considered "tights" but more period. Incidently, we're talking about 12th C. England if that makes any difference. What did they use to make men's pants? And, are "hose" a horse of a different colour, or the same thing. He wears them with a loose shirt under a thigh length tunic. HELP!! Krista sunfire@muskoka.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Jan 1996 11:57:21 -0800 From: erin1@uclink4.berkeley.edu (Erin Harvey Moody) Subject: authenticity, part 1 I would like to contribute to this ongoing discussion from a completely different perspective than what has been previously discussed. This may give some people an understanding of why some groups choose to create costuming standards. I am the founder of a living history group and it was my responsibility to establish and maintain costuming standards for the group. I wrote the By-Laws, Costuming Standards and established all other policies that governed the group. The primary directive of the group was to facilitate research and empirical application (doing/creating) of 16th century German material culture focussing on military life. The secondary directive was to educate the public via Renaissance Faires, festivals, and schools. In order for us to be able to put forward a viable group in proposals to Ren Faires and other public events, it was necessary _theatrically_ to create a cohesive standard of physical impressions (clothing, accoutre, characterization) that would be followed by all active members when participating at these events. Alternatively, we also created standards of costume that were applicable to private or inviational (non-public) events that were more flexible and allowed a wider scope of impression. The policy of dual standards enabled us to address both directives: strict standards to ensure cohesive, theatrically successful impressions to the public and, flexible standards to facilitate education and research in a wider scope of our period and culture. I would like to point out that after the first year, there were participants in the group whose vision diverged significantly from the existing group. Their primary interest was not education but to be a "guild" at Ren Faire only. They did not want to be restrained by any costuming standards, they wanted to dress however they wanted to (which included other cultures/impressions including pirates, Italians and peasants). They did not want to participate in any other events, educational or private. They were not primarily interested in research, they were primarily interested in theatre. We strongly encouraged them to establish another group that would better serve their interests, which they did. No one forced them to join the group, no one forced them to leave. It was clear that they had different ideas and needed a different group to express them in. (end part 1) Erin Harvey Moody ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Jan 1996 12:15:06 -0800 From: erin1@uclink4.berkeley.edu (Erin Harvey Moody) Subject: authenticity, part 2 Part 2: On authority and "fashion police": I have found that self-represented "authorities" and such varies greatly, individuals and groups alike. At my first Civil War event, an individual hunted me down and begged me to be in their fashion show. When I reluctantly complied (I prefer a low-profile existence, especially at a first-time event) she then told me that my dress was "fabulous" but my hair was "all wrong" and proceeded to rearrange it right there on the spot! I did not in turn, tell her that I thought her hair (a wig) was very nice but I think her corset obviously was a bad fit and undress her right on the spot (although the thought fleetingly crossed my mind). Nor did I account for her attitude as that of the whole Civil War organization. It did however, make me a little reluctant to return again soon. Bottom line: I put a significant amount of effort in my dress and almost none on my hair. I probably could have put a little more effort into making a more completely accurate impression. It is the _manner_ in which her comments were made which put me off. Myself as an authority: at the time I founded the group (over10 years ago)I had the most knowedge, experience, and resources than any other individual. _I_ set the standards and required all others to follow them. This was both in the interest in fairness (everyone followed the same rules), and in order to acheive our directives expiditiously. However, I always welcomed new information and research. If someone wanted to create something new, they were required to document it with at least 3 primary source documents. This stimilated both focussed research and further educated the entire group. There were many individuals who contributed significantly to our understanding of the period. I actively tried to not use "always", and "never" in my vocabulary. When our education and understanding of costume changed, so did our standards. Even in my most challenged disputes with individuals who felt I was wrong, my response was, "This is MY understanding based on my own extensive research and experience. Anyone is free to go out and do their own research and prove me wrong. You provide proof, I will reassess my opinion." I have to say that my own protoge, who played my maid at Faire, did this (change my opinion) frequently. Boy, did I learn alot from my pupil! She also says to this day that she learned more about research and costuming from having to challenge me than from anywhere esle. I think that in our case, the strict standards were a good thing. We were thought of by other groups to be hard-core: hard working, sticklers for detail and accuracy. We became one of the most sought after participants for Faires and festival throughout California than any other group, and is still active to this day. Our "look" is continuously imitated by other groups and individuals (the ultimate form of flattery). This is not to say that strict costuming standards are for everyone or would work for any group. There were many who came through our group, found us too restricting, and moved onto other things where they thrived end part 2 Erin Harvey Moody ------------------------------ Date: 10 Jan 1996 15:17:15 CST From: "MEQLAN2.AEKATHAN" Subject: RE: Authenticity Milwaukee has a number of ethnic festivals, every year, including Indian Summer. I was rather amused to note at one, that a number of the genuine Native American participants in the dance contest, wear beneath their very decorative costumes, standard issue gym shorts, rather than loincloths. Arthur Kathan ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Jan 1996 18:33:50 -0600 (CST) From: Teresa Shannon Subject: Re: Cotehardie Pictures? On Wed, 10 Jan 1996, Stephen & Krista Fraser wrote: > I have a cotehardie pattern, but there aren't any buttons on it, and I'm > starting to wonder if it really is period or not. It has elbow length > sleeves with tippets and it cross-laces up the front. The instructions say > it is a late 14th Century design. I noticed all the talk about cotehardies > and buttons and wondered why this pattern didn't indicate any. I realize > that I could change the pattern, but I'd like some reference to go by for this. > Did cotehardies use buttons as decorations only, or were they functional? > Also the cotehardie pattern looks like a dress more than an outer garment, > however they show a kirtle being worn beneath. Is this what they were like > or what? Dear Krista: The answer is: ...or what. Teresa (Still at work at 7:00pm?! and I'm a secretary?!) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Jan 1996 19:18:54 -0700 From: savaskan@electriciti.com (Julie Adams) Subject: Re: waist lines Ches, Many dresses of that period were at the natural waistline with no point. Some were even above the natural waist in Southern Europe. julie ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Jan 1996 19:18:56 -0700 From: savaskan@electriciti.com (Julie Adams) Subject: Authenticity/Fire hazards The posts about wool and fire hazards reminded me of a weekend several years ago. My husband and I had gone to a mountain man Rendezvous to visit my parents (who had an encampment there for the whole 5 day event) in late January. The event was held in the Julian area of San Diego in pine forest at around 5,000 ft elevation. There was patchy snow and it was purty darn cold. (Two years later my parents were snowed in at the same event for 3 days with only primitive gear and period clothing.:-) Not being fur trade period regulars, we threw together some generic 19th century woolen pants, waistcoat, and overcoat for him and a well-worn felt hat. I was wearing a Californio woman's outfit, consisting of a floral print cotton skirt, a white shirt, a black wool jacket with cream passementerie cording over much of it (remade from a 1950's mariachi coat), a flat charro hat, a sash, two rebozas, two layers of wool stockings, and small black flat pump-style style shoes. We both wore long underwear and gloves, and I had on a woolen petticoat as well. I also had a very heavy wool hooded cloak for the evening. When we arrived at the event, we found that two good friends of ours, Brian and Steve, so we spent a lot of time that evening talking around the campfire. We were actually very comfortable during the day, but as the evening progressed, a liberal amount of alcohol was used to warm the bones, so to speak. We also were huddling closer and closer to the fire. Somewhere around 1 am, the tent next to my parents burst into flame. Luckily the owner was not occupying it, but as it went up, as much as possible was pulled from the inside edges of the burning tent. My parents had stored some woolen blankets and some leather in the tent and it was barely singed, even though it was plucked right out of the flame. There were even some people which tried to enter the burning tent wearing wool capotes (because no one knew if there was a person inside), but even they were pretty much untouched by the fire. Anyway the fire was caused by a modern coleman lantern which exploded. Another tent went up that night as well, but was partially saved, again with no one injured. Most of their woolen bedding was saved, (spilled oil lantern I believe). Brian and Steve had gone very primitive and didn't even have a tent, just a canvas windbreak and bedrolls of blankets. They were also dressed in primarily woolen outerwear (vs the leathers and furs that many mountain men wear.) They stayed up much of the night near the fire and when morning came we were all surprised to find that the back of one of Steve's pant legs had totally charred and chipped away about 8" up his leg. The wool must have been smoldering, but never caught fire. We gave him a lot of razzing for being too inebriated to notice, but we were also amazed that it didn't ignite. At various SCA events I have seen tunics and cloaks made of synthetics scar with burn holes from popping cinders (and sometimes burn the owner as the fabric melts), but I never seem to have any marks on my wool cloaks. Also, while the people in Ren. Military groups still do tend to get match and powder burns on their 16th cent. wool Military clothes when shooting matchlocks, they don't combust into flame. With all my anecdotal experiences, I definitely feel safer wearing wool around a cookfire, but I don't know if there is a scientific basis or not for untreated wool being fire resistant. julie adams ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Jan 1996 03:38:11 -0500 From: kl94ag@badger.ac.BrockU.CA (Kathleen Leggat) Subject: nit-picking In response to: >julie adams, who is in a nit-picky mood tonight :-) Gee! I'm nit-picking the nit-picking! With all this picking, I'll be a nit in no time! :) >No Tapestry fabric! Gack! Pltue! No Corduroy! What's wrong with tapestry fabric? I'm very proud of my almost-pomegranite(sp?)-looking tapestries. And I thought that fine-waled corduroy was close to a period fabric? I got this second-hand though, so it may be incorrect. (I just don't like the look, so never bothered researching it for myself.) > >White caps for women only. What do you mean? That only women can wear white caps? Or that women's caps should be white only? And why? And what do you mean by a cap? Obviously not a French hood or flat cap. I'm assuming you mean the optional cap worn under a hood, that was often worked with blackwork. In which case, I understand that they should be only in white. > >White shirts and chemises unless Irish, then saffron ok as alternate. Scottish, too, I believe. > >Tell them to read "Elizabethan Costuming" by Janet Winter and Caroline >Schultz, or better yet, some of the Janet Arnold books....A MUST for >nobility. There are accuracy problems with the Winter & Schultz book, IMHO. It's great for beginners, though. Kathleen (Catriona) "Teehee," quod she, and clapte the windowe to. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Jan 1996 03:38:08 -0500 From: kl94ag@badger.ac.BrockU.CA (Kathleen Leggat) Subject: leather Hello! I'm looking for a source of *cheap* 4 oz leather for my boyfriend's new armour. The pieces must be rather large, as he wears Persian. (two piece skirt with separate waistband, front and back panels from neck to hip) If anyone hears of a leather factory going out of business or anything like that, please let me know. There's no rush...we won't really need it until the summer. Many thanks. Kathleen (Catriona) "Teehee," quod she, and clapte the windowe to. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Jan 1996 03:38:10 -0500 From: kl94ag@badger.ac.BrockU.CA (Kathleen Leggat) Subject: Fan research Glenna Jo Christen wrote: > >I'm looking for primary reference sources on 19th C. fans...particulary >mid-century. > >Any ideas? I would recommend starting with _Accessories of Dress_ by Lester and Morris (I think). Then check the bibliography. I found it great for 16th century fan info. Kathleen (Catriona) "Teehee," quod she, and clapte the windowe to. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Jan 1996 09:33:47 GMT From: Debbie Subject: Re: busks etc At 12:17 10/01/96 +0000,Dorothy Stein wrote: ..... For example, busks may have served the purpose of >making women sexually more attractive by the standards of the time, but >at a cost of suffering and limited lives for the women involved. Well, there is the conspiracy theory which says that everything women do is to enhance attraction. ( no flames, pleeeease !) I am intrigued to know if you think this enhancement was simply conforming to the accepted clothing fashion ? Or was it that the busk, by making you physically erect implied you were morally erect? Or was it that the corset and busk emphasised your figure and made a statement about the difficulty of physical access ? Or was it if you are very tightly laced you are seen as a display item, not available for work ? Or, perhaps a subtle and inscrutable mixture of all of the above ? ..............Debbie ------------------------------ End of H-Costume Digest V4 #9 ***************************** A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to subscribe to that instead, send the command lines: unsubscribe h-costume-digest subscribe h-costume end in the body of a message to majordomo@lunch.engr.sgi.com. Thanks and enjoy the list!