From: owner-h-costume-digest (H-Costume Digest) To: h-costume-digest@lunch.engr.sgi.com Subject: H-Costume Digest V4 #12 Reply-To: h-costume Sender: owner-h-costume-digest@lunch.engr.sgi.com Errors-To: owner-h-costume-digest@lunch.engr.sgi.com Precedence: bulk H-Costume Digest Friday, January 12 1996 Volume 4, Number 12 Compilation copyright (C) 1995 Diane Barlow Close and Gretchen Miller Use in whole prohibited. Individual articles are the property of the author. Seek permission from that author before reprinting or quoting elsewhere. Important Addresses: Send submissions to: h-costume@lunch.engr.sgi.com (or reply to this message). Adds/drops/archives: majordomo@lunch.engr.sgi.com Real, live person: h-costume-request@andrew.cmu.edu Topics: Re: Sidesaddle Habits Re: Sources Book for Sale and Authenticity Again fabric selection Re: fabric selection Re: Stupid Questions?...maybe re Book for Sale and Authenticity Again Cotehardie, coat hardy, what may you be? Re: fabric selection Re: Stupid Questions?...maybe ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 12 Jan 1996 06:43:57 -0600 (CST) From: dwhite@io.com (dwhite) Subject: Re: Sidesaddle Habits Linda, I agree that some sort of riding undergarment was used and petticoats kept to a minimum; though not abandoned all together. Man and the Horse "An Illustrated History of Equestrian Apparel" by Alexander Mackay-Smith Metropolitan Museum of Art, Simon and Schuster p 60,67-68 has several descriptions of womens riding undergarments (or lack of them a la Elizabeth of Austria who wore only a kid chemise). See also "The Art of Side-Saddle" by Rosamund Owen "The Habit and the Horse" by Mrs. Stirling Clarke was originally published in 1857 and contains much period detail and advice. It was reprinted in a limited edition a few years ago as was "Modern SideSaddle" by Eva Christy originally a 1907 publication. The International Sidesaddle Organization P.O. Box 4076 Mount Holly, NJ 08060 (609)261-1777 is/was a good source of information and the books I've mentioned. Heidi Marsh publishes a pattern for Riding Habit trousers for her 1860's riding habit patterns which are a loose trouser which have a fitted cuff; very utilitarian no lace or ruffs. She also publishes a compiliation of articles from period magazines "Godey's", etc. which deal with riding fashion and manners. These are available directly from her or are also in the Raiments or Amazon Drygoods Catalog. See also Past Patterns #901 Equestrienne Trousers. These are side buttoning and also fitted at the ankle. These are meant to be used with their 1880-1897 habit pattern. Period Impressions makes a pattern for what it calls an 1860's Light French Corset made without gussets which is supposedly light enough for riding or taking exercise. Also, California SideSaddle Organization 278 Woodrow Ave Vallejo, CA 94591 C/O Crystal Elzer P.O. Box 66143 Scotts Valley, Ca 95066 Southwest Aside 428 Wildlife Club Road Graham, NC 27253 Texas Ladies Aside C/O Sallie Cochran Rt. 4 Box 55 Caldwell, TX 77836 (409) 567-4832 SideSaddle Repairman Extrodinaire Smokey Everhart Box 1187 Middleburg, VA 22177 Source for Sidesaddle Books 706 Holyoke Rd Westfield, MA 01085 I would love to hear of others sidesaddle experiences both riding and apparel related. Hope this helps, Dana White dwhite@io.com Austin, TX >>Has anyone found any reference to sidesaddle riding habits that would >>indicate that women rode with pantaloons and petticoats...from any time >>period, but mostly from the last half of the 1800's? >> >>It is hard to convince some sidesaddle riders that these items were >>streetwear and not used from riding. I read that women would carry their >>petticoats (in a satchel?) when riding and put them on after reaching their >>destination. That way they would not get didrty. >> >>I have also found that the term pantaloons discribed trousers made of wool or >>chamise and were constructed like today's stirrup pants. Most sidesaddle >>riders, today, refer to pantaloons as bloomers, usually white, with lace or >>ruffled bottoms. >> >>What references can I use to document the correct wear? >> >>Linda >> >> > ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 12 Jan 1996 09:43:56 -0600 (CST) From: "\"Randy Shipp\"" Subject: Re: Sources On Thu, 11 Jan 1996, Erin Harvey Moody wrote: > Sharron said: > >What I do need is some assitance in a problem I have. My problem is in > >the >definition of "primary sources" and "secondary sources". > > Primary sources are from original documents from the period being > researched such as painting, drawing, sculpture, wood cuts, brass rubbings, > texts, etc. A Pre-Raphaelite painting depicting a medievil maiden is not a > primary source for medievil garb. The Bayeaux Tapestry is a primary source > for 12thC Norman garb. The source must be original AND contemporary. I welcome corrections if I'm mistaken, but I think that your definitions of primary and secondary sources are each off by one "step". A primary source while researching thirteenth century shoes would be, for example, an actual surviving thirteenth century shoe such as the ones found in the London excavations. A primary source for 12th Century Norman garb would be a piece of 12th Century Norman garb which has survived and can be examined first-hand. A secondary source of the same piece of Norman garb would be a painting, sculpture, written description, or other depiction of the garb by a person who was examining the primary evidence. For example, if the Bayeux tapestry was created by artists who were looking at the garb that they were depicting (although I understand the Bayeux tapestry came some time later), then it would be a secondary source. To use the shoe example, the book "Shoes and Pattens" is a secondary source for some medieval shoes, as it shows photographs of and descriptions of shoes which the author was examining first-hand. Tertiary sources, include just about everything else. If I examine a bunch of secondary sources on 12th century Norman garb (some early 13th century paintings, a 19th century costume book, and some 20th century museum catalogs) and then write a paper on Norman garb, the product is a tertiary source (and therefore not worth much for original research). > That > is not to say of course that you have to produce the actual document, a > copy of the original book such as Dover puts out "counts". Shakespeare > describing what the Merry Wives of Windsor (in 16thC England) wore is a > primary (text) source. SHakespeare describing what Cleapatra wore (in > Antony & CLeopatra) is not a primary source for ancient Egypt. It would be > a primary source if you are depicting what a 16thC interpretation of > ancient Egyptians wore. Both would be secondary sources. I'm sure it's just a matter of terminology, but I thought it might clear things up a bit. Randy Shipp rshipp@dale.hsc.unt.edu ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Jan 1996 21:51:19 -0800 (PST) From: Allan Terry Subject: Book for Sale and Authenticity Again Quite a lot of people have asked about the copy of _Dressed for the Photographer: Ordinary Americans and Fashion 1840-1900_, by Joan Severa that I offered for sale. Especially since some got the message twice (I didn't post it twice, that was some software glitch). The bad news is I sold it. The good news is that Kent State University Press would be happy to sell you one directly. Their address is: Kent State University Press PO Box 5190 Kent, Ohio 44242 The price is $60 which appears to include postage. Well worth the money, really. I have to take issue with a statement in Lee's posting: "Loners. . .who are unwilling to participate with the group are going to be rejected and rebuked. " Wait a minute. Talk about pressure to conform. Someone who does not wish to participate in a group's activities should at least have the freedom to not join the group. Whether it's because they take issue with the group's policies, or because they don't have time to do the activities. Fran Grimble ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 12 Jan 1996 10:43:17 -0500 From: exd08547@interramp.com (Edward C. Safford) Subject: fabric selection Erin wrote, >There was a viking tunic that had Icelandic embroidery all over it. The >embroidery was wonderful AND period. It was unfortunate that they >embroidered it onto an unperiod fabric (a beige cotton denim twill). I >kept thinking to myself "All that work!" I remember seeing someone in a lovely 18thC gown. She said she used a polyester because she was concerned about silk getting stained. I mentioned that a stain would most likely affect polyester the same as silk - - the gown would still be damaged. For working clothes, stains aren't a problem. It just gives the clothes that lived-in look. Our economic situation today is the opposite of the historic periods we re-create. Now, fabrics are affordable and labor is dear. Cotton and linen have switched as to which is more expensive. We can get silk for the same price or cheaper than linen. So if we're going to put *that much* work into our clothing, why not use the correct fabrics? When I was plowing through the archives of this list, I was amazed at the number of cheap mail-order sources of fabrics & supplies that were listed. Some of my most wonderful fabric finds are from mail order sources. Most provide swatches of available fabrics. (I still mourn the loss of the Natural Fiber Fabric Club) So, yes, those in remote areas can "find" the right fabrics. Fire safety has been mentioned as a chief concern. Burn test your fabrics. I knew someone who wore a gown in camp that caught fire. Her friend put the fire out quickly with her hand, only to find out that it was a synthetic. The wearer of the gown was not hurt, but her friend had some plastic burns on her hand. The fabric was labelled "silk" when it was purchased. If you want to make a garment that you NEVER wear to a campout, and NEVER wear to a candlelit dinner or dance or an event where torches are used, then synthetics are an option. Many formal events take place in a hall where candles are not permitted. Some synthetics resemble the original fabric more than the natural fiber fabrics available. One example is changeable silk, which has the warp of one color and the weft of another. As the fabric drapes & folds and the light hits it, it flashes between the two colors. Silk made this way now usually has slubs in it; thick spots in the yarns that are suposed to make it look "handmade". Changeable fabrics without slubs tend to be synthetic. In this case, the costume maker has to choose between the right fiber content vs. the right look of the yarns. In the example of the embroidered tunic, the tunic may have been made well before the maker decided to embroider it. Sometimes it's worthwhile to plan a new garment from the ground up instead of adapting or embellishing one that already exists. We need to think about the amount of work that goes into the alteration before starting! Wool was probably worn in the 18th century more than we, as reenactors, wear it at events. Wool coats were lined with wool then; today we line them with linen. Wool petticoats were worn by women more often then; today most of us wear linen petticoats. Our events are mainly in the summer, in these tropics we call the Mid-Atlantic seaboard. Today we are acclimated to air-conditioned houses and offices during the week, which makes it even harder to stand the heat at events. As I sit here, watching EVEN MORE snow come down, I wonder what adaptations others have come up with to suit their climate. Do you wear modern thermal undies under your historic clothes in the cold, or do you use period solutiuons? How do you make a Tudor gown that's wearable in Arizona? If you make a lighter weight skirt or petticoat, is it more likely to flutter into a fire? -Carol Kocian *^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^* This is nt my regular e-mail account! This is a trial account at home that turns into a pumpkin on 1/20/96. Mail can be sent to Carol at ckocian@epe.org ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 12 Jan 1996 09:34:20 -0800 (PST) From: Heather Rose Jones Subject: Re: fabric selection > Erin wrote, > > >There was a viking tunic that had Icelandic embroidery all over it. The > >embroidery was wonderful AND period. It was unfortunate that they > >embroidered it onto an unperiod fabric (a beige cotton denim twill). I > >kept thinking to myself "All that work!" I can empathize with this situation! Back in the early '80s I decided to make an embroidered tunic. I designed it and purchased for it according to my knowledge, finances, and authenticity-satisfaction level of the time. The fabric was a whic denim twill; the embroidery was done in DMC cotton floss in a design adapted from medieval manuscript decoration. It took me five years to finish the embroidery. By the time I had finished it, I had begun to get serious about using more historic cuts, had improved my finances to the point where I could afford appropriate fabrics, had finally discovered good sources for early medieval embroidery, and had found out where to buy silk embroidery floss. Sigh. I will probably eventually give the tunic away to someone who will love and cherish (and, more to the point, _wear_) it, because it pretty much just sits in my closet. I don't know what the moral of the story is. It certainly _isn't_ to refuse to make anything until you are sure you can do it absolutely authenically. Perhaps the moral is to remember that labor tends to be our limiting resource today and make sure that the knowledge and materials that go into a project are at least proportional to the labor involved. There is nothing sadder than the realization that the only positive thing you can say about a project is, "Wow, you sure put a lot of work into that!" Heather Rose Jones ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 12 Jan 1996 11:59:20 -0600 (CST) From: "Sandra L. Waldrop" Subject: Re: Stupid Questions?...maybe On Thu, 11 Jan 1996, Stephen & Krista Fraser wrote: > > Unfortunately, not all of us out here have the funds required to purchase > new books, authentic materials etc., and we must make do with what we have. > I live in a VERY small town where the reference section in the library is > miserable for any kind of costuming research...and I haven't got a car to > get to the city and go to a real library :) (snip) Shameless Library Advertisement: I also live in a small town. Might I suggest Interlibrary Loan? Ask your librarian to try and get the books you want from a bigger library. It's easier if you have an author and title; start with the bibliographies of the books you can find. Most libraries are collected in groups or networks of one kind or another. The process may take a week or two, but it beats the daylights out of nothing. Depending on government funding where you are, there may be a charge of some kind. The Librarian should be able to tell you. Good Luck. Sandy Waldrop swaldrop@prairienet.org ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 12 Jan 1996 12:07:07 -0500 From: lrp@westol.com Subject: re Book for Sale and Authenticity Again > >I have to take issue with a statement in Lee's posting: "Loners. . .who are >unwilling to participate with the group are going to be rejected and >rebuked. " Wait a minute. Talk about pressure to conform. Someone who >does not wish to participate in a group's activities should at least have >the freedom to not join the group. Whether it's because they take issue >with the group's policies, or because they don't have time to do the >activities. > >Fran Grimble > A point that I was trying to make is that criticism creates criticism in return. If an individual who isn't part of a group chooses to criticise, then don't be suprised if it get's returned. The old adage of what goes around comes around has some validity to it. I did NOT say "join a group." My comment was that groups can under some circumstances be useful. No one is talking about pressure to conform. H-costume is a "group" and Fran, like all of us, has chosen to be a part of h-costume. It's a completely voluntary act, with no pressure to remain a member, or quit. It's her choice. Fran. Calm down a bit please. No one is picking on you. You have free choice to do what you want. I've read and agree with what you have to say, but I know that groups can be useful, but do have problems. Let's not throw the proverbial baby out with the bathwater. Please, please, please a little moderation here. Les (not Lee). ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 12 Jan 1996 17:06:59 -0500 From: David Marcus / Peggy Lamberson Subject: Cotehardie, coat hardy, what may you be? I've been very interested by the discussion of cotehardies (coteshardie?), as I have no idea what one is. I'm primarily interested in late 16th to mid 18th century theatrical costuming, and have zero knowledge of late medieval garb. I looked in the dictionary for info and didn't get far. American Heritage ignores it altogether. The OED, however, turned up the following, which I share for other ignorant folks and the entertainment of any and all: No "cotehardie" entry, but at "Cote-armure, -hardy" a XREF to COAT. At "Coat", the following: "Coat hardy. _Obs._ Also...cote. [a.OF. _cote-hardie_.] A close-fitting garment with sleeves, formerly worn by both sexes. "1450 _Knt._de_la_Tour_ 159 There come in a yonge squier...and he was clothed in a cote hardy upon the guyse of Almayne. _Ibid._ 165 She clothed her in a cote hardy unfurred, the chiche satte right streite upon her. _Ibid._ 167 Forto make her gentille, and smalle, and faire bodied, she clothed her in a symple cote hardye, not doubled. 1834 Planche' _Brit._Costume_ 128 A close-fitting body garment, called a _cote-hardie_ buttoned all the way down the front and reaching to the middle of the thigh. 1860 Fairholt _Costume_ The gentleman [temp. Edw. III] wears a close-fitting tunic, called a _cote-hardie_, with tight sleeves." Not real helpful, but at least consistent. I'm especially curious about the "symple cote hardy, not doubled" bit. Does the word "doublet" come from some doubled form of this garment? Also, is a cote-armure the same thing or an armored version of it? I'd enjoy hearing a more evocative description of a cote-hardie from someone familiar with it. Thanks, Peggy Lamberson ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 12 Jan 1996 17:36:44 -0500 From: NeaDods@aol.com Subject: Re: fabric selection Carol wrote mourning the loss of the Natural Fiber Fabric Club (which I was once a member of too - it had some nice stuff.) However, I've found a really nice nubbly-weave all cotton fabric. It's medium weight, comes in 7 colors (navy, black, "taupe," "granite," natural, white, and purple) It has a nice amateur homespun look appropriate for peasants (skip the purple!), and is very comfortable. It's also washable, which makes it perfect for a drag-in-the-mud outdoor costume. It's called Deva Cloth, and it is available from Deva Lifewear, a cottage clothing industry heavy into tunics and drawstring pants & skirts. Deva has several other house fabrics, including a cotton linen and a washable, slubby silk which may also be useful in recreation clothing. And the newest of beginners really wouldn't go too far wrong in one of the Deva peasant shirts and pants with appropriate accessories. Fabric samples are $1, free with orders. Call 1-800-222-8042. The usual assurances that this is all IMHO and not an advertisement... Nea neadods@aol.com "oh the weather outside is frightful, but the list is so delightful, and now we've no place to go, 'cause of snow, 'cause of snow, 'cause of snow. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 12 Jan 1996 15:25:12 -0800 From: erin1@uclink4.berkeley.edu (Erin Harvey Moody) Subject: Re: Stupid Questions?...maybe Krista Said: >Unfortunately, not all of us out here have the funds required to purchase >new books, authentic materials etc., and we must make do with what we have. >I live in a VERY small town where the reference section in the library is >miserable for any kind of costuming research...and I haven't got a car to >get to the city and go to a real library :) This is at the heart of who I said in an earlier post. I realize how _fortunate_ I am in the resources that have been available to me (time, money, education, research materials, costuming supplies). I also understand that there are many out there who have a genuine desire and/or talent that simply do not have the same access/priveldges that I have had, yet they still make the effort to make costumes to the best of their abilities. The finance thing I can do nothing about except let people know about inexpensive sources for materials, but I do make a concerted effort to teach anything I can to anyone who is interested and pass on my research whenever requested. Erin Moody ------------------------------ End of H-Costume Digest V4 #12 ****************************** A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to subscribe to that instead, send the command lines: unsubscribe h-costume-digest subscribe h-costume end in the body of a message to majordomo@lunch.engr.sgi.com. Thanks and enjoy the list!