From: owner-h-costume-digest (H-Costume Digest) To: h-costume-digest@lunch.engr.sgi.com Subject: H-Costume Digest V4 #15 Reply-To: h-costume Sender: owner-h-costume-digest@lunch.engr.sgi.com Errors-To: owner-h-costume-digest@lunch.engr.sgi.com Precedence: bulk H-Costume Digest Monday, January 15 1996 Volume 4, Number 15 Compilation copyright (C) 1995 Diane Barlow Close and Gretchen Miller Use in whole prohibited. Individual articles are the property of the author. Seek permission from that author before reprinting or quoting elsewhere. Important Addresses: Send submissions to: h-costume@lunch.engr.sgi.com (or reply to this message). Adds/drops/archives: majordomo@lunch.engr.sgi.com Real, live person: h-costume-request@andrew.cmu.edu Topics: Hysterically Accurate? Questions looking to be answered. re: libraries feathers Re: fabric choices Re: fabric choices Re: nit-picking & fabric choices Re: feathers Re: feathers nit-picking Re: Burning our Corsets Authenticity Authenticity etc. Source for Wool? Primary and Secondary Sources ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 15 Jan 1996 11:23:57 +1100 From: "GILLIAN RICHARDS (02) 716 3712" Subject: Hysterically Accurate? I take it, then, that a faithful reproduction of Queen Maria's gauzy nightwear attire from "Carry On Henry" does not quite make it? (Echoes of gales of hysterical laughter wobble down the bandwidths) + - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - + | Gillian Richards - Multicultural Ed Unit |\__/| | | aka: gillian.richards@tafensw.edu.au / \ | | Official TAFE bit - did you knowGood Friday /_.~ ~,_\ | | is a Public Holiday? TAFE NSW - (02) 716 3712 \ / | + - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - @ - - - - - - + ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 14 Jan 1996 20:16:10 -0500 From: HiNonny@aol.com Subject: Questions looking to be answered. Hello... I don't know if this is the *best* place to post this.. but I'll try. If you have suggestions for another mailing list or newsgroup, I'll repost there. There has been a lot of talk about authenticity within groups. Could anyone give me contacts for groups in the Orange County/LA areas. I am mostly interested in Renaissance and Civil War/Victorian. Thank you very much. Amanda ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 14 Jan 1996 19:57:21 -0800 (PST) From: Julie Dickson Subject: re: libraries I am also from a small town and make good use of my local library's Online service. Many libraries are online today. I can call up my library's online catalog and order a book from home. I have ordered several books recommended by this list --- to check them out before purchasing. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 14 Jan 1996 20:08:37 -0800 (PST) From: Julie Dickson Subject: feathers Could someone give me any suggestions on how to preserve feathers I just received some pheasant feathers from a friend and want to save them to use for costumes in the future. Should I seal them in plastic? is this word allowed on this list ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 15 Jan 1996 00:24:03 -0800 From: fishcat@hooked.net (Trystan L. Bass) Subject: Re: fabric choices kl94ag@badger.ac.BrockU.CA (Kathleen Leggat) wrote: > Using a particular dollar value...say $10 a meter/yard...and basic >availability...say Fabricland or Joann Fabrics in Anytown, or mail >order...what are the best choices for period-looking fabrics and trims? My >personal bias is for 16th century, but we could do it by century. > I'm hoping this request will generate a list of realistic but >appropriate fabric choices, and a list of great bargains through mail order. >I'm also hoping the list will be practical. "Look for pure linen" is >somewhat useful, but "Cheapo Fabrics has hankerchief linen for $10 a meter >by mail order" is far more useful. I think this is a *fabulous* idea & I hope lots of people contribute!!! Here's two of my possibly-useful recommendations..... Europa Trims makes lovely metallics that have a dull, antiqued look (not that fake synth shiny look). New York Fabrics tends to carry them. Can be pricey -- $4-$10/yd. They're very beautiful & perfect for Ren. nobles garb. The cheapo 99 cent per yard muslin is good for drawers, camisoles, petticoats, & misc. underthings (get white if you want to look nice). There are different grades of it, some delicate & some rather heavy. When you wash it once or twice it gets nice 'n soft (even the heavier grades!) & it's generally strong enough to take a lot of wear & washings. This stuff is also pretty nice for Ren. peasant clothes, esp. shirts & skirts. It dyes very well (it's usually *at least* 60% cotton, if not 100%), and with a few washings it gets a great drape & softness. I'm a big fan of this stuff -- it's mostly natural, it feels good, it looks good, and it's soooo dang cheap! Works for a lot of eras too. I have never ordered fabric or trims by mail order, & frankly I'm nervous about paying for something like that sight unseen (& unfelt, since touch is how I often choose fabrics). Has anyone here had good experiences with fabric or trim shopping by mail? If so, what companies do you recommend? Thanks! - --Trystan (a major cheap-skate & the laziest costumer in the world) @->->-- Trystan L. Bass --<-<-@ fishcat@hooked.net http://www.hooked.net/users/fishcat/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 15 Jan 1996 09:04:37 -0500 (EST) From: Drea Leed Subject: Re: fabric choices On Mon, 15 Jan 1996, Trystan L. Bass wrote: > kl94ag@badger.ac.BrockU.CA (Kathleen Leggat) wrote: > > > Using a particular dollar value...say $10 a meter/yard...and basic > >availability...say Fabricland or Joann Fabrics in Anytown, or mail > >order...what are the best choices for period-looking fabrics and trims? My > >personal bias is for 16th century, but we could do it by century. fabric that you Many stores have real linen--or a linen-cotton blend--for around $10 a yard. The weave is coarse and there aren't many colors, but it's there. They also have cotton velvet and velveteen, both of which are period-looking substitutes for 16th century velvet. The acetate shot-silk in the bridal section, that two-tone stuff that changes color, is also period-looking, as is heavy baroque or bridal satin. Drea ******************************************* We've secretly replaced their dilithium crystals with new Folger's Crystals. Now let's watch them go to warp. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 15 Jan 1996 11:23:09 -0600 (CST) From: Teresa Shannon Subject: Re: nit-picking & fabric choices > JoAnn had a linen/cotton blend in nice greyed colors for about 8.95 a yard. > Fabric Warehouse (Hancock Fabrics/Minnesota Fabrics) and JoAnn often have > silk noil or shantung on sale for $10 or less. I've always had good luck > with antique curtains, but I can understand that a lot of people don't like > them. If you want nice silk for your $10.00 range, order with a friend at least 15 yards per fabric and get the wholesale price from Thai Silks. I used to work there, it is very inexpensive, order over the phone. Wholesale silk noil (which I would recommend only for patterns, lining or chemises) could then be bought at 3-4$/yard it is regularly around 6.50 I think. Do not sew with Shantung if you are a European before a couple hundred years ago, its not worth it anyway, frays and too many ugly slubs. Try silk taffeta which will be under $10 at wholesale, silk/linen, silk/wool, silk broadcloth, matelasse, jaquards and chinese dupioni all to be had for under 10$ at wholesale prices all appropriate. For a little more money, under $15.00 can be had silk velvet, peau de soie, thai silk (1 ply) except for the pongees and phoenix silks, and perhaps the chinese brocade, most other silks there just aren't appropriate, except maybe for veils. With such prices why would anyone go for silk substitutes? :-) Teresa > > As for trim, I think that modern woven trims look terrible! I do use the > tarnished-looking plain gold and silver braids/laces, but metallic trims with > patterns in them just look like the costumer didn't want to put any work into > embroidery. Even a double row of gold braid with pearls sewn between is > better than a cheap-looking trim. > Another important thing is to make sure that the width of the band of trim is > appropriate to the period of the garment -- study period paintings for this. > Many "Renaissance" costumes have trim that is too narrow. > > I have had good luck with antique trims, especially the really old > ecclesiastical ones. > > Good luck! > Sanni > ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 15 Jan 1996 10:31:10 -0800 (PST) From: Heather Rose Jones Subject: Re: feathers On Sun, 14 Jan 1996, Julie Dickson wrote: > Could someone give me any suggestions on how to preserve feathers > I just received some pheasant feathers from a friend and want to > save them to use for costumes in the future. Should I seal them > in plastic? is this word allowed on this list The primary danger to feathers is a thing called a "feather louse". They actually feed on the keratin of the feather itself and their work shows up as lines or patches of "thinness" in the feather vein or weak spots in the shaft. The eggs are deposited on the feather and appear as small white pinhead-size specks. Feather lice live on the living birds, so especially if you have obtained the feathers from a wild bird, it's a safe assumption that your feathers _may_ be contaminated by them. They can be controlled by sealing the feathers in an airtight container (e.g., a zip-lock baggie) dusted with some sort of mild insecticide intended for use on pets (e.g., flea powder). This should kill off any feather lice that came in with the feathers and when you go to use the feathers, you can just shake off any residual powder. Re-infestation at a later date is possible, however, and "nice" feathers and feather-work should be stored under the same conditions you would fine woolens and furs. P.S. "Feather lice" are not transferrable to humans. The one and only thing they can digest is feather-keratin -- they'd starve on us. Heather Rose Jones (pulling up info from my days at the UC Davis Avian Science Department) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 15 Jan 1996 12:52:13 -0500 From: deirdre@sover.net (Deirdre) Subject: Re: feathers Here's what I was told by a friend who is a ceremonial magician when I'd just plucked a crow and a partridge. Put them in a plastic bag and put them in the freezer for a week to kill anything that'll make them scraggly looking. Feathers often have organisms that'll partially consume them; freezing apparently breaks this cycle. So anyway, I did that then took them out and put them in my herb drawer after wrapping them in a light piece of linen (on the off chance the plastic wouldn't allow them enough moisture shedding). After 7 months, they look fine. _Deirdre At 8:08 PM 1/14/96, Julie Dickson wrote: >Could someone give me any suggestions on how to preserve feathers >I just received some pheasant feathers from a friend and want to >save them to use for costumes in the future. Should I seal them >in plastic? is this word allowed on this list ------------------------------ Date: 15 Jan 96 11:25:00 GMT From: Mrs C S Yeldham Subject: nit-picking Thanks, Julie, for some very sensible comments. Research gives us a basis for discussion, IMHO, otherwise we might as well be live role players, with arbitrary rules. A couple of points relating to recent posts. My comments on coifs, as usual, relate to 16th century England. Women's coifs are always white (ie I have never seen an illustration or reference to another colour) and not embroidered or decorated. All the illustrations of embroidered coifs I've seen are described as nightcaps (Janet Arnold, again!) Men could wear knitted caps of wool, which are white or natural wool colour (legal requirement to encourage knitting guild) and I've seen white caps under black caps or hoods worn by elderly men or eccleiastics - some of Holbein's studies show this. As to cheapness, a friend of mine used to say that none of her outfits had cost her more that #40 (about 60 dollars?) for 16th century gentry (we change our year every year, so she needed a full new outfit every year). She was on a very tight budget then (her circumstances changed about 4 years ago). Most of her cloth came from charity shops, she said the technique was to find a good one (or two) and haunt them - go in every week, get to know the workers there and eventually you will be lucky - she had the time but very little money. One of her most successful outfits was 1588, old cotton velvet curtains for the gown, an old sari for the forepart (lined and interlined with cotton to get the weight), old sheets for smocks and coifs. I can't claim credit for this - I never had the time! Advice on feathers - you will probably need to treat the feathers for nits (which will otherwise eat the feathers). If you want to know what is used in the UK, I can ask my husband. He has feathers to tie flys with (for fly-fishing) or you could ask your local fishing shop? Let me know if UK info would help. Talking about UK info, do you want cheap cloth sources in the UK? My best source for cheap cloth is for cotton velvet. There is a road in east London called Brick Lane. The bottom end of it has dozens of cheap fabric shops, most of their business is wholesale and they usually won't sell less than 5 metres of any cloth. Most of it is useless for period, but there are a couple of shops specialising in cotton velvets, with hundreds of colours. The price is usually about #5 a metre for 60 inch wide velvet, which costs twice that in the shops. Calico (american muslin) is about #1 a metre, and lining cottons about #2 a metre - if you can find it. The top end is a street market (at least on Sundays) selling anything and everything, there are some wonderful leather goods shops (beautiful leather) and the best bagel shop in London, open 24 hours a day, 7 days a week (cream cheese and smoked salmon - 85p). If you are within reach of London, Brick Lane is well worth a visit on a Sunday. Caroline ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 15 Jan 1996 11:34:48 +0000 (GMT) From: Dorothy Stein Subject: Re: Burning our Corsets On Fri, 12 Jan 1996, Kathleen Leggat wrote: > Okay, women have had the lion's share of torture devices. But > basically I'd say the corset issue is a fashion issue, not a woman's issue. It can, of course, be both. In any case, a 'fashion issue' is amenable to analysis along a number of dimensions, and can be interestingly examined as an economic, political, religious and ideological issue, none of the above excluding the gender factor, which is always present in fashion, no? > Isn't it also fascinating the way alluring body parts come in and > out of fashion? Some centuries you could show tremendous amounts of bosom, > but don't dare show your wrists...or wrists were fine but ankles were > taboo...or the Middle Eastern cultures that don't have a problem with bare > wrists, feet and ankles, but cover everything else but the eyes. And isn't > it also interesting the way women find ways of drawing attention to those > parts that are supposed to be hidden away? Red stockings on ankles that > aren't supposed to show...a provocative glimpse of lace edging that > "accidently" peeked below your hemline... This sounds like looking at fashion issues as sexual issues, which is not too far from women's issues. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 14 Jan 1996 16:18:22 -0800 (PST) From: Allan Terry Subject: Authenticity All these groups where authorities are all qualified and willingly appointed by the group, whose members are only exerting their best efforts to help each other, no one is subjected to unreasonable criticism, and everyone is volunteering for pure fun or the desire to educate the public sound idyllic. All I can say is, I've never seen one. Now I admit to being a "loner"--I prefer to do research, costuming, and other activities by myself, and consider myself well qualified to do so. However, historic costuming and reenactment activities are not part of mainstream culture. If you want to participate you have to go to events given by related groups, even if you don't join cliques or play power politics. But if the atmosphere is sufficiently political, politics may be hard to avoid. I've been subjected to people who constantly brag about their achievements (which I feel is in poor taste), who view everything as a one-upmanship stituation, whose main desire on joining a group is to assert status (let me tell you about the amateur costumer I met back East who was planning to move to my area; she immediately announced, "I'm going to _bring_ costuming accuracy to the Bay Area"), and who will freely lie or bullshit to achieve their ends. Choosing between accepting such people as "authorities," and behaving this way to be accepted as one yourself, is a nasty choice. Now some people on this list will view this as a personal complaint. At this very moment they are right. I recently spent time in the company of someone who started an "authority" contest with me on a subject I have worked hard to learn for many years. She was publicly spouting off on a subject about which she knows very little. I (perhaps unwisely) called her on it. And got this information "Oh, the author is--you know, what's-his-name, and I don't remember the title of the book but it's the blue one." I said, "What?" "You know--the one with the blue cover. Oh, I can't remember the title but I have _three_ copies at home." I said, "This doesn't make any sense at all." She giggled. I kid you not, those were her actual words in conveying her "research sources." What do you do with people like this? Does anyone at least perceive they are bullshitting? Fran Grimble ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 14 Jan 1996 18:00:54 -0800 (PST) From: Allan Terry Subject: Authenticity etc. Re my previous message--I was up late and am not as coherent as usual. One point I've been wanting make is: A number of list members have said, "If you don't like the group you're in, you're free to join another group and everybody will be happy." But not everyone has that option. If you're not in a large urban area, there may only be one or two local reenactment groups. You may not be interested in just any reenactment, but in one era (say you're a keen Civil War buff), or a historic-type activity (say black powder shooting) only provided in the context of one group. So there may be only one local group that relates to your interests. Starting a new group is not necessarily a valid option either. You need the money, time, and--most important--a fair number of people who share your interests and agree about how the group should be run. I live in a large urban area with lots of groups. I haven't gone to all the groups' events, but I hear about many of them. Quite a lot of reenactors and costumers belong to several groups, so there's a reenactment culture that transcends groups. If someone really wanted to avoid aspects of that culture, they'd have to quit reenactment--and costuming, unless they only wanted to wear their costumes at home. Or they'd have to move to another area, which would require changing most other things in their lives. You can tell a Civil War buff, "If you don't like our group standards you can go join the SCA." But it is false to claim you're considering that person's welfare. I would like to think groups can examine and strive to improve their own cultures. Rather than creating small cliques with increasingly rigid attitudes because everyone with different opinions has been made unwelcome. Fran Grimble ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 15 Jan 1996 13:10:06 -0500 From: recon36@server.iadfw.net (Ed Walton) Subject: Source for Wool? Does anybody know of a source for "kersey" or "loden" wool? I need to have some gray/green WW1 Imperial German uniforms made up. Getting the patterns was easy compared to finding the wool. The wool is very much like what is used in many Confederate Civil War uniforms. In fact that stuff would work pretty good after a side trip to the vat. Any help would be greatly appreciated. Ed Walton ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 Jan 1996 10:16:00 +1000 From: Sarah Randles Subject: Primary and Secondary Sources >Sharron Fina wrote: >What I do need is some assitance in a problem I have. My problem is in >the definition of "primary sources" and "secondary sources". Erin Moody replied: The Bayeaux Tapestry is a primary source >for 12thC Norman garb. The source must be original AND contemporary. I agree with Erin's comments, but think that further distinctions need to be made (I would possibly draw the boundaries between primary, secondary, and what I would call tertiary sources rather differently.) The only real, primary source for historic costumes in my opinion, is the actually garment itself. And we don't always have them. A contemporary depiction, be it written or visual is always one step away from the actual garments, and this can cause problems, since the depictor may not know much about what he or she is depicting, so there may be errors or 'artistic license'. I would call these secondary sources, albeit very good ones, but they need to be treated with some care. (For example, in 15th century Flemish painting, there is a convention of dress used to depict saints and other exotic people, which is related to everyday contemporary dress, but departs from it in a number of conventional ways, to make it more exotic - therefore it's not good to assume these are a good depiction of 15th century everyday dress.) Tertiary sources then are those which are another step away, e.g. a photo or line drawing based on a painting. These too can be good or bad, and again need to be treated with care. For example Janet Arnold's books are good tertiary sources, because she has worked closely with the primary and secondary sources; Holkeboer's "Historical Costume" is a bad tertiary source, because she has not. My advice is to work from the primary source if you can, (easier for some periods than others), and use secondary sources with some caution, and tertiary sources with a lot more. To reduce the risks of making mistakes, cross referencing between sources, with an understanding of their relative accuracies, is essential. Sarah **************************************************************************** ******** Sarah Randles ser@adminserver.canberra.edu.au Research Office Phone: (06) 201 2955 University of Canberra Fax: (06) 201 5381/5999 ------------------------------ End of H-Costume Digest V4 #15 ****************************** A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to subscribe to that instead, send the command lines: unsubscribe h-costume-digest subscribe h-costume end in the body of a message to majordomo@lunch.engr.sgi.com. Thanks and enjoy the list!