From: owner-h-costume-digest (H-Costume Digest) To: h-costume-digest@lunch.engr.sgi.com Subject: H-Costume Digest V4 #17 Reply-To: h-costume Sender: owner-h-costume-digest@lunch.engr.sgi.com Errors-To: owner-h-costume-digest@lunch.engr.sgi.com Precedence: bulk H-Costume Digest Tuesday, January 16 1996 Volume 4, Number 17 Compilation copyright (C) 1995 Diane Barlow Close and Gretchen Miller Use in whole prohibited. Individual articles are the property of the author. Seek permission from that author before reprinting or quoting elsewhere. Important Addresses: Send submissions to: h-costume@lunch.engr.sgi.com (or reply to this message). Adds/drops/archives: majordomo@lunch.engr.sgi.com Real, live person: h-costume-request@andrew.cmu.edu Topics: Re: Where to get feathers? Renaissance FAQ's now available... japanese clothes, etc. Re: H-Costume Digest V4 #16 Re: Where to get feathers? Re: H-Costume Digest V4 #15 Re: Source for Wool? Re: Where to get feathers? Re: Authenticity & Sources (long) Re: Cotehardie and cote-armure Re: Silk ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 16 Jan 1996 14:12:31 CST From: "Mary Wood" Subject: Re: Where to get feathers? Stephen and Krista, I have found that one of the best sources for a variety of feathers is a tie-flying shop (for fishing). I go there when I need feathers for millinery work. They are often inexpensive. Last time, I could have gotten an entire duck-wing for about $3.00. Check that option in your local yellow pages. Mary Wood MPW@gml.lib.uwm.edu ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 Jan 1996 12:40:07 -0800 (PST) From: close (Diane Barlow Close) Subject: Renaissance FAQ's now available... Four of the FAQ's regularly posted to alt.fairs.renaissance, and maintained by Chris Laning , are now available through our archives. The files are: renfaire.general-info.faq General information on Renaissance Faires. renfaire.general-costume.faq General costume info for Renaissance Faires. renfaire.RPFI-costume.faq Specific costume info for RPFI Faires. renfaire.supplier-list.faq List of suppliers for costuming and accessories. To request any or all of these, send the commands: get h-costume FAQ/renfaire.general-info.faq get h-costume FAQ/renfaire.general-costume.faq get h-costume FAQ/renfaire.RPFI-costume.faq get h-costume FAQ/renfaire.supplier-list.faq end as the body of a message to: majordomo@lunch.engr.sgi.com and the server will send you back those files. - -- Diane Close I'm at lunch all day. :-) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 Jan 1996 13:05:38 -0800 From: Susan Fatemi Subject: japanese clothes, etc. Sorry I'm ringing in late on this one, just catching up on old digests. In addition to the excellent books suggested, I have found "Arms and armour of the samurai" by Ian bottomley, 1988, very helpful in researching men's costume. There are photos of real garments, also "Japanese Costumes and Textiles ", in the Heibonsha series, out of print, unfortunately, is good from the historical angle. There are literally dozens of other books on kimonos, etc. try your public or academic library using a title word or subject search on kimonos or Japanese costume, etc. Ask your librarian. I was in Japantown this weekend (in San Francisco) lots of kimono, noren, household items, etc. There are also good places in Berkeley, Calif. for buying authentic (new) kimono fabric, futon fabric, etc. and used kimono. Ahem, I also, ahem sell "vintage kimono" out of my home. If anyone iis interested in a list or fact sheet, please e-mail me privately. If you just want the fact sheet, let me know, no obligation. Another excellent book is J. Liddell's "Story of the Kimono", still in print, I think. I don't have it yet, myself, but it's on my wish list. Susan Fatemi susanf@eerc.berkeley.edu ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 17 Jan 1996 10:04:05 +1000 From: Sarah Randles Subject: Re: H-Costume Digest V4 #16 Annikki Weston wrote, in response to defining photos of paintings as tertiary sources: >This is really starting to get me confused now. Why would a photograph >of a painting be tertiary, vs. secondary, like the painting itself. Is >it not an exact reproduction of the painting? I can see how a line >drawing is tertiary, because it doesn't copy exactly. But a photograph? and Randy Shipp wrote: Well, I'd tend to disagree that a good, clear photograph which sacrifices >no significant detail is secondary rather than primary, insofar as you >can gain relevant information from the photo. The reason I define a photograph of a painting of a costume as a tertiary source is that it is two steps away from a primary source. A photograph of a surviving garment is a secondary source, however, because it is only one step away from the primary source. Photographs, like line drawings and paintings, do not copy exactly. Each translation of the original source into another medium will lose some information, colour being one of the most obvious areas. (Compare different prints of the same painting in different books and this will quickly become apparent.) There are, however, good and bad photographs, and overall, the quality of the representation of the original garment is as important (if not more so) than whether the source is primary or secondary. Basically this boils down to the statement that when you make an interpretation of a costume, you will have to use your judgement as to the relative accuracy of your sources, and the more informed you can make that judgement, through comparing sources, the more accurate your interpretation will be. Sarah **************************************************************************** ******** Sarah Randles ser@adminserver.canberra.edu.au Research Office Phone: (06) 201 2955 University of Canberra Fax: (06) 201 5381/5999 ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 Jan 1996 15:33:40 -0800 (PST) From: Heather Rose Jones Subject: Re: Where to get feathers? On Mon, 15 Jan 1996, Julie Adams wrote: > >What I'm after, in particular, is wing feathers of Canada Goose and Wild > >Turkey. If folks know of a source for them, or if someone on the list _is_ > >a source, I'd like to purchase some. > > I just wanted to point out to the list that there are several bird of prey, > migratory bird, and songbird federal laws which make it illegal to have > most wild bird feathers in your possession and even more to sell them. > Additionally, some animal body parts, such as bear claws, cannot be sold > legally, though there may be some leaway for antiques.. Bird of Prey > feathers can be possessed by American Indians, but I believe they must have > some official tribal written authorization which allow it for religious > reasons, or some such like that...Anyway, please check this out. I think > the Wild Turkey feathers may be ok, but I would check first. Laws relating to the possession of native animal parts are directly related to the level of protection given to those animals in general. E.g., federally licensed falconers may possess bird of prey feathers because they are allowed to possess birds of prey. Similarly, I cannot imagine that it would be illegal for someone who is licensed to hunt Canada Geese or Wild Turkeys to possess their feathers. Would you need to have a current license simply to possess the feathers? I don't know specifically, but it seems unlikely, since it should be reasonable for someone to continue possessing body parts of a bird obtained under a previous, but non-current license. The place to find out would be the U.S. Department of Fish and Game. Don't depend on the theory that "If someone is selling it to me, it must be legal for me to have it." Heather Rose Jones ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 Jan 1996 15:23:22 -0800 From: Susan Fatemi Subject: Re: H-Costume Digest V4 #15 re treating feathers for storage: after you have de-loused them in that plastic bag, do not store them in a sealed bag! I do not have 1st hand experience of feather degradation, but they are organic fibers and you don't store silk or wool (or other fibers for that matter) in sealed plastic. I think if I had to store a lot of them, i might store them i small hat boxes or cardboard boxes (like gift or shirt boxes) Presumably if you buy them from a craft shop or similar, they will have been de-contaminated. When I worked in museum, feather covered objects were just stored in closed cupboards, in acid-free tissue. 2 cents please! Susan Fatemi susanf@eerc.berkeley.edu ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 Jan 1996 19:48:41 -0500 From: David Marcus / Peggy Lamberson Subject: Re: Source for Wool? At 01:10 PM 1/15/96 -0500, you wrote: >Does anybody know of a source for "kersey" or "loden" wool? I need to have >some gray/green WW1 Imperial German uniforms made up. Getting the patterns >was easy compared to finding the wool. The wool is very much like what is >used in many Confederate Civil War uniforms. In fact that stuff would work >pretty good after a side trip to the vat. > >Any help would be greatly appreciated. > >Ed Walton > > > > You might check Army/Navy supply and salvage stores. My husband and I found some World War 2 German army pants at a salvage place that are the best cold weather backpacking pants I've ever owned. They are gray/green loden wool with a _tiny_ hint of rust colored threads in the weave. Something like that might be alterable, or the fabric might be salvageable. Relative to the discussion of wool's fire safety--my husband wore these pants on a backpacking trip where we ended up on a mountaintop in several inches of (unexpected) snow. We sat for a couple of hours _very_ near a fire. The next morning, he discovered that he had singed a hole in his pants leg. Not only had the material not burst into flames, he had not even been aware (through heavy socks) that it was burning. I patched the pants, and he's still using them. Peggy Lamberson ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 Jan 1996 21:13:01 -0700 From: savaskan@electriciti.com (Julie Adams) Subject: Re: Where to get feathers? >I want to just point out that there are hunting seasons all over the >country for Wild Turkey and Geese, as well as so many other wild >birds. It would be difficult not to possess the feathers of these >birds once they were shot, unless there is a new shooting/plucking >device that I am unaware of. :) > >Robert Robert and all, The laws maybe seem stupid, but they are real. I believe that hunters may legally possess parts from their own kills, but most game meat or parts are illegal to sell, and some are also illegal to possess. A licence _might_ make it legal for some things. Heather Rose Jones' discription and recommendation is a good one. As someone who grew up hunting and whose parents still do, I realize that some of it makes no sense if a licenced hunter gives you something as a gift, but all you need is a rabid federal investigator who decides to persecute you and you could be in trouble. I heard an interview of a lady who gave Hilary Clinton a dreamcatcher with a variety of feathers and sold some others in a store on consignment. All the feathers were given to her by hunters, hunted by her husband, or found loose. She said she was offered a plea bargain for a mere $200,000 in fines and only 2 years in jail. They are charging her with many counts on something like 5 federal laws, one of which makes it illegal to possess feathers from migratory birds, and one other which makes it illegal to possess feathers of songbirds. She also had an eagle feather which was dropped from a cage at her local zoo. She was in even more trouble because she was selling some of them too (but she had _given_ the predatory bird feather to Hilary, not sold). She had no idea of these laws, but it did not matter. My parents, who make dreamcatchers, as well as jewelry, ramrods, and knife handles from deer antlers, see federal agents at gun shows and _Mountain Man Rendezvous_ all the time. They have been questioned and their goods scrutinized. They are very careful that they conduct their business legally. They also see many people who do not. Dierdre, I am well aware that geese and turkey are not predatory birds, but I thought the information worth knowing. People should be aware of these things in case they want to use a hawk or goose feather, or bear claw as a part of a costume or accessory. I know that I myself have found a hawk feathers while hiking or riding. And Heather said: >The place to find out would be the >U.S. Department of Fish and Game. Don't depend on the theory that "If >someone is selling it to me, it must be legal for me to have it." Exactly. People need to be aware that there are state and federal laws which restrict the uses/ownership/sales of some wild animal or bird parts. For example, just because it was ok in 1839 for an American Indian to wear an eagle feather, your average person making a replica of that same costume should not assume it is legal to use one today. julie ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 17 Jan 96 15:37:00 EST From: "Hicks, Melissa" Subject: Re: Authenticity & Sources (long) Greetings all, I am mainly a lurker on this list, but I have been thinking about this whole authenticity debate, and would like to add a new perspective on this debate. I am not trying to criticise anyone or start any wars, I am simply trying to show another point of view. I joined the SCA (please, don't get side-tracked on generalisations of this group) a little over 18 months ago. I *still* consider myself a newcomer. I have met a lot of people; both other newcomers and some older more established people. >From a newcomer point of view, most of us *want* to learn. We want to do it *right*. However, most of the new people I have met, do not have the subject specific skills to find a lot of this research for themselves. Our first aim is to get some garb, any garb. We talk to people (as this is the easiest resource) we get the most appropriate materials possible, dependant of course on costs, time and the advice we have been given, and then we sew it, once again using the method of patterns and sewing dependant on our skills, time, money, equipment and advice given by others. The average human being (yes I know I am generalising) will ask another human being *before* looking in a book. Take for example, the popularity of this here list. People communicating with people. Of course this is often the case because some of us do not only have the reference sources, we often do not know *where* to find those sources. It took me eight months to work out that *portraiture* was the correct subject heading to search the catalogue for the style of art books I wanted - and I'm a librarian !! If a new person asks a more established person for some advice, it is usually because this new person does not know, therefore they would tend to take the other person's advice as gospel because that it what it must be if it is the only information we know. The main hassle for a new person is when two or more older people disagree on a point. Then the new person does not know what is *right*. This is where a series of basic agreed upon ground rules could come in use. For example we all agree that x modern fabric is OK for a beginner to make y class of costume in z time period. Now these ground rules will be different for each group, probably even each subgroup. But it is something ... it is a start for these new people to go to. As we go along, and make more costumes, we naturally get more interested in finding out the details of *why* something is *right*. This learning stage occurs at different speeds and times in all of us. Most established people are way into this *why* state of mind. This is where some of the basic ground rules are moved into the background and some interesting debate starts occurring for example, x book states there are no existing farthingales for the time period 1550-1570, do we have any other sources that contradict this .... This is the stage that most established people have moved into, but please do not forget that most new people are in the *tell me what is right* state. One mistake I have seen people do over and over is try to *push* people from the *tell me* state into the *why* state, or treat people in the *why* state as if they were in the *tell me* state. Neither of these approaches work. Find out which stage people are in and couch your information appropriately. The *way* information is given is (unfortunately) just as important as the information content itself. People are emotional creatures, if you get our backs up, we wont listen to you. This is easy to preach, but very difficult to do (trust me - giving appropriate information in an appropriate manner is something I do for a living - and I'm not very good at it). All of the usual commonsense curtesy manners apply: always balance negative comments with positive ones, do not sneer or look down your nose. Newcomers are people too. We have often put in a lot of work and done our costume as *right* as possible (given skill, knowledge, and resources constraints). Don't hurt us simply because we do not know what you learnt yesterday. I was at an important event (important for us in the Australian group) on the weekend. I made my second ever 16th Century English Court dress (Tudor, 1545 - Lady Jane Grey style). I spent a lot of time and effort by myself on the pattern and I felt I had fixed all of the problems I that I had with the first Tudor I made. I was very proud of my achievement because I had fixed the problems of the first. I had learned. While at the event, I went to show my gown to one of the people in my local group who I admire for her garb. She simply said "we must talk about petticoats" and walked away. I was crushed. I knew this friend did not deliberately want to hurt me, she simply pointed out a discrepancy in my outfit that was *exceedingly* obvious to her. Later in that evening I went over to that friend to get some more information about the problem (as this wasn't something that had been pointed out in my first Tudor). She calmly explained what she meant and offered to show me some of books after the event which displayed the points she was making. Another lady I did not recognise was standing with my friend and he started going over my garb with an eagle eye and making comments on all that I did. The other lady's comments were not catty or patronising, or simpering, she simply mentioned items as she came to them. For example with the bodice she mentioned that the look was right but I had a problem with one shoulder. She then smoothed the fabric and explained why it wrinkled there and what sewing techniques may alleviate the problem. She also constantly apologised and offered to *shut up and go away* if she was offending me. On the contrary I was honoured that someone would take much time and trouble over a new person, and with every problem, she suggested something that might fix it. She did not use the words *always* or *never* or *must*. She did not present her ideas as the only solutions, rather she couched them as *well this seems to work for me* or *if you look in x book you will see examples of what I mean* - with my friend fortunately having some of x books. After our conversation finished I talked to a few other people who told me she was a Laurel (a high arts/sciences award in the SCA). To me that makes her an authority figure. However, I am not sure if this makes any difference. I am not sure if she is a costuming Laurel, but I will try some of the techniques she suggested and look in the books she recommended. The main point is that if I am still confused I feel confident that this is a woman who I could go and talk to again. I don't know if these observations are of any help to anyone else. I just feel that if you want to keep the newcomers that you have attracted to your group, you must treat them with curtesy and dignity. Most of us are *trying*, we just aren't sure what we are trying for ..... ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 17 Jan 1996 01:21:20 -0500 From: kl94ag@badger.ac.BrockU.CA (Kathleen Leggat) Subject: Re: Cotehardie and cote-armure >Date: Fri, 12 Jan 1996 17:06:59 -0500 >From: David Marcus / Peggy Lamberson >Subject: Cotehardie, coat hardy, what may you be? > (snip) >Not real helpful, but at least consistent. I'm especially curious about the >"symple cote hardy, not doubled" bit. Does the word "doublet" come from some >doubled form of this garment? Also, is a cote-armure the same thing or an >armored version of it? > I found some information today. A cote-armure is a heraldic tunic worn over the armour. My source is primary (by my standards). It was mentioned in a detailed description of Sir Gawain armouring up in Sir Gawain and the Green Knight. I, of course, didn't read the original document, but I read it in the original Middle English. The unknown poet who wrote the alliterative poem in the middle-to-late 1400's, wrote that the cote-armure was worn over the chain mail tunic, and later mentions that Gawain's heraldic devise (a pentacle) is on both his shield and his cote-armure. Gawain started with a velvet doublet (that particular word), and a hood lined in fine fur. He then put on plate greaves, knees and thighs that fastened with what was described as a cunning lacing. He also wore plate bracers and elbows. His body armour was chain mail. His helm fastened in the back, had a chain mail neck protection hanging from it, and he fastened a silk, jewelled ribbon around the neck. His armour was steel, with gold embellishments. I don't have the book in front of me, so I'm not using the proper terms. I found it strange that the poet didn't mention hose or an undershirt, but perhaps that was considered normal underdress not worth mentioning. There are other mentions of male clothing, but I didn't have time to translate them properly. One thing I caught was the liberal use of silk (including sheets). Since I also found reference to a white silk chemise worn by Una in Spenser's Faerie Queene (16th c), I definately think I'll give Thai Silks a try! Let me know if you would like more of this as I translate it. Kathleen (Catriona) "Teehee," quod she, and clapte the windowe to. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 17 Jan 1996 01:48:23 -0500 From: kl94ag@badger.ac.BrockU.CA (Kathleen Leggat) Subject: Re: Silk >Date: Tue, 16 Jan 1996 12:33:19 -0500 >From: deirdre@sover.net (Deirdre) >Subject: Re: nit-picking & fabric choices > >At 12:03 PM 1/16/96, Veda Crewe Joseph wrote: >> Great! Do you have the address and phone # for them? >> Inquiring minds wand to know. > >I just called them to order their samples (finally) yesterday. 800/722-SILK. > >_Deirdre > This is for the States, right? Is there another phone number? Most U.S. 1-800 numbers are invalid in Canada. Kathleen (Catriona) "Teehee," quod she, and clapte the windowe to. ------------------------------ End of H-Costume Digest V4 #17 ****************************** A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to subscribe to that instead, send the command lines: unsubscribe h-costume-digest subscribe h-costume end in the body of a message to majordomo@lunch.engr.sgi.com. Thanks and enjoy the list!