From: owner-h-costume-digest (H-Costume Digest) To: h-costume-digest@lunch.engr.sgi.com Subject: H-Costume Digest V4 #25 Reply-To: h-costume Sender: owner-h-costume-digest@lunch.engr.sgi.com Errors-To: owner-h-costume-digest@lunch.engr.sgi.com Precedence: bulk H-Costume Digest Tuesday, January 30 1996 Volume 4, Number 25 Compilation copyright (C) 1995 Diane Barlow Close and Gretchen Miller Use in whole prohibited. Individual articles are the property of the author. Seek permission from that author before reprinting or quoting elsewhere. Important Addresses: Send submissions to: h-costume@lunch.engr.sgi.com (or reply to this message). Adds/drops/archives: majordomo@lunch.engr.sgi.com Real, live person: h-costume-request@andrew.cmu.edu Topics: tablet-weaving Men's 1920 vest fabrics re: Men's 1920 Vest Australia 1788 Hairstyles Re: Men's 1920 Vest Re: Men's vest sources 16th Century "court caps" 1920s vest On-line patterns Re: 1920s vest Nuns' veils/ customs (a bit long) Re: On-line patterns Re: Nuns' veils/ customs (a bit long) Re: Hairstyles Elizabethan edicts, etc... 18th Century Sources RE: Men's Vest Patterns ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 29 Jan 96 09:15 CST From: ROBERT@UIAMVS.WEEG.UIOWA.EDU Subject: tablet-weaving In response to: Date: Fri, 26 Jan 96 13:06:27 EST From: "Stephen Davis" Subject: tablet-weaving I recently identified wood fragments from a 16th-century archaeological site as formerly part of a rigid heddle for tablet-weaving narrow tapes. I am not quite understanding what you found. Did you find part of rigid heddle, which was used for making narrow tapes, or did you find evidence for tablet weaving (using tablets with 2 or more holes, no heddle is required, although wooden supports wewre often used to hold the warp). Tablet weaving was also used to make narrow bands. Both types of weaving are briefly discussed in the Museum of London's Textiles and clothing c.1150-c.1450. Both seem to have been commonly used for weaving narrow bands. Finally, are any of you familiar with listservs which specifically focus on looms, weaving, and related material culture? I am also interested in the answer to this question. Please post any answers to the whole list. Thank you. ****************************** Wendy Robertson Serials Cataloging University of Iowa (319) 335-5894 wendy-robertson@uiowa.edu ****************************** ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 29 Jan 96 12:29:04 est From: Hilary_Oak_at_SLU1@ccmaillink.stlawu.edu Subject: Men's 1920 vest fabrics Hi Peter, Anything with a nap, particularty velvets, are hard to sew because they shift around under the foot. A nice brocade, probably dark and with a 'masculine' print, would make a lovely formal vest. Generally something with stable body (but not too stiff) like a pique, linen or heavy cotten is going to be easiest to work with. Ofcourse the final choice is yours because that is the fun of designing! (Given that it falls within the realm of historically appropriate.) I would also warn against synthetic fabrics. HO! ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 29 Jan 96 09:54:31 MST From: mgriggs@shepards.com Subject: re: Men's 1920 Vest "Peter J. McDonough" Subject: Australia 1788 Help! I need information on the English convicts that were sent to Auatralia in 1788-1789. While I've found information on the events of the time little has been said about what they were wearing at the time. I assume they wore the clothes they had on in England before making the trip, but they were given "prisoner" clothes upon arrival. Would convicts in England have worn "prisoner" clothes? Any info would be appreciated. Kristina Haney Costume Designer South Dakota State University o7az@sdsumus.sdstate.edu. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 29 Jan 1996 13:20:19 -0700 (MST) From: "Anthony (AGA)" Subject: Hairstyles I was wondering if anyone knows where to find descriptions and pictures of hairstyles from various periods. Some of the simpler ones I can figure out, but the closer I get to the 19th and 20th the more lost I get as to how they could twist, braid, and curl their hair into those gorgeous styles. ;) Bye, Amanda That which does not kill us makes us stronger- we hope. DNRC,FK,SCA,X-phile,Trek,Herc,B5,Xena,OFF,Fray,and several other cryptic phrases showing that I am part of various sub-cultures. -Grin- ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 29 Jan 1996 19:38:10 -0500 From: RBarber854@aol.com Subject: Re: Men's 1920 Vest Dear Rookie! Stay away from Black just because it can be difficult to see threads if you have to take something out. Also stay away from Slippery fabrics as these are difficult to handle. For linings you may try a cotton sateen if you can find it, or a firmly woven silk.( I'm not real sure about the authenticity of the cotton sateen, maybe someone else can tell us?) Another tip from a "veteran", Stop when you get frustrated or too tired, sewing is not easy or fun in that state, and nither is tyring to rectify the errors you make later! Keep asking, Roxy Barber ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 29 Jan 1996 19:40:45 -0500 From: RBarber854@aol.com Subject: Re: Men's vest sources Montgomery Ward also has catalogs from the era. Just in case. Roxy Barber ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Jan 96 12:15:00 EST From: "Hicks, Melissa" Subject: 16th Century "court caps" Greetings all, I am posting this request on behalf of Miesje de Vogel who is unfortunately not on this list at the moment. Please either send replies to the list (and I will pass them on) or directly to her. Could anyone please provide any informaiton on these caps: Name: not sure. Caul, cap or barretta usually Time: 1560's 1570s Place: France or Spain Sources: The Valois tapestries; portraits of Elizabeth of Austria, Elizabeth of Valois, and the Infantas of Spain. Also, has anyone made one of these ??? Thank you in advance Melissa (mah@amsa.gov.au) on behalf of Miesje (M.DEVOGEL@student.anu.edu.au) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 29 Jan 1996 20:11:08 -0800 (PST) From: Allan Terry Subject: 1920s vest Peter, About your vest: I've made all three views of the Folkwear pattern, some for me and some for my husband. It's an easy pattern and the results look very nice. However, without digging out the pattern I believe they're all Victorian styles. With men's clothes, it's easy (at least for a woman) to think styles didn't change much during the Victorian and Edwardian periods. However, style lay in details like a higher or lower neckline, the number of buttons, the closeness of fit, etc. People were quite aware of these details at the time. So you wouldn't want to use a Victorian pattern without altering it. As for fabric, the 1850s was about the last decade men got to wear vests in fancy fabrics like velvet and brocade. The only exception is evening vests which could be an all-black or all-white silk brocade. White (actually off-white rather than glaring white) was more formal. I haven't sat down to research the 20s, but I think for day you'd want wool or linen (for summer only). Both are easy to work with. If you use a silk lining try a fairly firm one like satin or taffeta. Slipperiness, per se, in fabrics is not a problem if you baste the seams closely before machine sewing. This is not a big deal. But slippery fabrics that don't hold their shape--like some modern blouse-weight silks--are trickier. These are really too light for a man's vest lining anyway. Vest backs have a long tradition of being made from the lining fabric. Often it was cheaper and men usually kept their coats on. Also, if the main fabric is bulky, making the whole vest out of it adds an instant 5 pounds to your figure, visually. Hope this helps. Fran Grimble ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 29 Jan 1996 21:11:53 -0800 From: LMetz Subject: On-line patterns I was wondering if anyone knows of a place on-line that has patterns of any kind. I know they wouldn't be full size, but I was thinking maybe there might be some scale patterns in GIF or PICT format or the like. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 29 Jan 1996 21:14:37 -0800 From: LMetz Subject: Re: 1920s vest I don't know much about this stuff, but what about a medium wool felt-like material? I have seen some womens clothing made from that and it's very nice material. As for the authenticity, I don't know..I just think it might be rather nice to work with. Lissa ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 29 Jan 1996 23:10:00 -0700 From: claning@igc.apc.org (Chris Laning) Subject: Nuns' veils/ customs (a bit long) I'd be a bit cautious about taking the term "nuns' veiling" too literally. I have a feeling -- though I can't document it -- that "nun's veiling" is one of those good Victorian terms that was applied to a particular fabric at least partly for its "romantic" connotations (sighing maidens... renouncing the world forever....) -- i.e. 19th century marketing hype. I don't think you can assume that just because it's called "nuns' veiling" that any actual nuns ever used it for veils. (Of course, they may have.) Another caveat is that the "penguins" many of us are familiar with usually belong to one of the so-called "active" orders, where the sisters leave their convent every day to teach, run soup kitchens, or whatever. Before Vatican 2, many of them did have complex, traditional habits, with starched linen, special bonnets, parts that had to be made out of specific materials - -- even special buttons, in some cases. The older orders of "cloistered" or "contemplative" nuns have in general had somewhat simpler clothing and a somewhat more relaxed attitude toward materials, as long as they "look" right and serve the purpose. In the monastery, nuns certainly don't veil their faces from each other. And my understanding is that most of them -- even the older orders -- no longer veil their faces in front of outsiders, either. But they certainly used to. If you saw the movie "Therese" (1990?? about St. Theresa of Lisieux, the "Little Flower"), which is set a little before 1900, there is a scene toward the end where a man is allowed to come into the monastery because he is delivering something large and heavy. The nuns (Carmelites in this case) are wearing black veils which are large squares folded in half and pinned on their heads with the fold forward, so they hang down in back as a double layer. Before the man actually comes into the room, they flip the top layer of their veils forward, so it hangs down over their faces. I am fairly sure this is accurate costuming. Poor Clares (i.e. contemplative Franciscan nuns), up until at least the 1940s, used to wear an extra veil, called an "enclosure veil", over their regular black veil, specifically so they could pull it down over their faces in similar circumstances. (They've since discarded it.) The rationale behind all this, as I understand it, is to discourage attachments being formed between people outside the cloister (especially men) and individual nuns. Therefore outsiders are not supposed to see a nun's face, or for that matter, hear her sing (about which there are also rules). These rules in their strict form date from the Council of Trent (1560s). Modern nuns from these more traditional orders have sensibly modified this attitude, but they still honor the custom to some extent. If you visit a monastery, you will see the face of the sister who answers the door -- since a face veil in these modern times would be *very* off-putting -- but if another sister brings a tray of tea and cookies to you and the sister you're talking to, she will often remain out of sight, outside the door to the room, and the sister you're talking to will go over and take the tray. The modern veils I've seen close up seem to be of ordinary cotton/poly blends. And in case you're curious, they have little squares of black felt sewn in strategic spots on the underside; the nuns wear a small white cap under the veil, and it's pinned to the cap by pins running from the cap into the felt and back into the cap again (which means none of this shows on the outside and it looks like the veil is kept on by faith alone!). By the way, I was enchanted to find that the outer habit of the Poor Clares is still, after nearly 800 years, your basic, ordinary T-tunic! ____________________________________________________________ O Chris Laning | + Davis, California ____________________________________________________________ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Jan 1996 09:32:28 +0000 (GMT) From: "J.F.Scott" Subject: Re: On-line patterns On Mon, 29 Jan 1996, LMetz wrote: > I was wondering if anyone knows of a place on-line that has patterns > of any kind. I know they wouldn't be full size, but I was thinking > maybe there might be some scale patterns in GIF or PICT format or the > like. > Yes, if you're not too worried about strict historical accuracy. Mike Horrills web pages at http://palantir.soc.staffs.ac.uk/~mhorrill have medieval patterns with pictures. The pages are designed for Live Role Players, not re-enactors, so bear that in mind when you look at them. John John F.Scott Networked Information Services Advisor j.f.scott@bton.ac.uk University of Brighton, England The right to be heard does not automatically include the right to be taken seriously. -- Hubert Humphrey ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Jan 1996 05:59:38 -0500 (EST) From: Diana Wigham Subject: Re: Nuns' veils/ customs (a bit long) Dear Chris, I am quite new to the list, but I am enjoying the threads that have appeared. Your response to the nun's veiling was interesting, so I dug out my copy of _Fairchild's Dictionary of Textiles_ and looked it up. Here is how they define nun's veiling: "A plain weave, soft, light-weight fabric of good quality made of worsted, silk, cotton, or combinations of htese fibres in sheer constructions. Generally dyed black. Uses: veils by various religious orders annd for mourning. See also Batiste 3." Batiste (third definition): "Also a lightweight, smooth-surfaced, fine-textured, all-wool fabric. This is lighter than challis and is similar to fine nun's veiling." Hope this helps. Diana Wigham dwigham@mhc.mtholyoke.edu ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Jan 1996 06:03:05 -0700 From: kmills Subject: Re: Hairstyles Anthony (AGA) wrote: > > I was wondering if anyone knows where to find descriptions and pictures > of hairstyles from various periods. Some of the simpler ones I can figure > out, but the closer I get to the 19th and 20th the more lost I get as to how > they could twist, braid, and curl their hair into those gorgeous styles. > > ;) Bye, > Amanda > > That which does not kill us makes us stronger- we hope. > DNRC,FK,SCA,X-phile,Trek,Herc,B5,Xena,OFF,Fray,and several other cryptic > phrases showing that I am part of various sub-cultures. -Grin- In response to request for info on historic hairstyles, you might try getting hold of "Fashions in Hair" by Richard Corson. It is an absolutely enormous book with line drawings of countless historic hairstyles, most of which seem to be taken from primary sources (although some sketches are kind of "clumsy"). I don't recall if there is much info on recreating these styles, but there certainly are a LOT of them. (P.S. The more "modern" sections (1970's, etc.) will really crack you up!) Adios, K.P. Mills ------------------------------ Date: 30 Jan 1996 09:41:25 -0500 From: "Witt Meggan" Subject: Elizabethan edicts, etc... I have a graduate student who would like information on clothing and, more specifically, theatrical costumes from Shakespearean times. She is most interested in the social significance of types of dress and the legal restrictions placed on the use of materials and colors. She is also researching the various guilds which existed in England, and would like more info. on how the actors obtained and constructed their costumes. Can anybody out there supply some info or suggest some resource material which would help? Thanks, Meggan ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Jan 1996 11:49:51 -0500 From: aquazoo@dcez.com (Edward C. Safford) Subject: 18th Century Sources Robert Wrote, >If I can't justify embroidery on it I need to know where I can get ahold >of >some linen or silk lace (as in the tape lace they used for >embellishing coats). Kathleen B. Smith, Textile Reproductions, Box 48, West Chesterfield, MA 01084, (413) 296-4437. She has cotton, silk, wool, and linen tape in many widths. She can dye it for you or you can dye it yourself. Kathleen is also a handweaver who will weave custom fabrics & trims. Her emphasis is primarily 18th century, but has useful items for 19th Century, too. The catalog is $4 or free with an order. "All sorts of the very best Goods, Materials for Needlework, Costume & Furnishing Reproductions, Vegetable Dyed & Natural fiber for Traditional Handwork" The index to the 32-page catalog includes: Buttons, Candlemaking supplies, Canvaswork supplies, Conservation materials, Costume patterns & books, Crewelwork supplies, Doll & Toymaking, Fabric, Furnishings (household linens, etc.) Knitting & Crochet, Plant dyeing (natural dye materials & books), Samplers, Thread, Tools for sewing & needlework. -Carol Kocian *^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^* This account is shared by Carol Kocian and Ed Safford. Carol can also be e-mailed at ckocian@epe.org ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Jan 1996 03:08:31 -0800 From: Alessaundra Assante Subject: RE: Men's Vest Patterns Pete -=20 I was sorting through some old books when I happened to notice a pattern = for a man's vest from approximately 1910. This pattern was drafted from = an actual EXTANT GARMENT in the Brooklyn Museum collection (item # = acc.no.40.118). An "extant" garment means a garment which still exists = from the original time period (i.e. - not a modern reproduction). The = pattern given for this garment would have been drafted by taking the = actual measurements and details from the existing man's vest in the = museum collection and transferring them to paper (in a scaled down = size). From this you could actually reproduce the details of an = existing vest from the time in question! The description in the book states that original garment was made of = black broadcloth with a black satin lining. The items described are a = frock coat, trousers and a vest. I am not sure whether the fabric = description applies only to the frock coat and trousers, or if it also = applies to the vest. At the very least, it gives an accurate = description of two fabrics that would have been used in men's garments = of the period. The pattern in question is for a men's size 38-40 vest. To be usable, = the pattern (which is about 2" tall in the book) will need to be = enlarged. Directions for enlarging the pattern are included in the = book. The name of the book I found this information in is "Period Patterns" by = Doris Edson with text by Lucy Barton. It was published in Boston by the = Walter Baker Company in 1942. The pattern in question is from Chart # = 39 which is found on pages 94-95 of the book. "Period Patterns" is intended to be a supplement to another book, = "Historic Costume for the Stage" (possibly by the same author?). A = detailed description of the garments in question can supposedly be found = in Chapter XVIII of "Historic Costume for the Stage", figure 5, page = 449. See also related descriptions on pages 501 and 534. (I haven't = actually seen this book, I am just repeating what it says about it in = "Period Patterns"). If you can't find "Period Patterns" in your library, I could mail you = photocopies of the appropriate pages by regular mail. . . Remember, you CAN do it . . . Alessaundra ------------------------------ End of H-Costume Digest V4 #25 ****************************** A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to subscribe to that instead, send the command lines: unsubscribe h-costume-digest subscribe h-costume end in the body of a message to majordomo@lunch.engr.sgi.com. Thanks and enjoy the list!