From: owner-h-costume-digest (H-Costume Digest) To: h-costume-digest@lunch.engr.sgi.com Subject: H-Costume Digest V4 #36 Reply-To: h-costume Sender: owner-h-costume-digest@lunch.engr.sgi.com Errors-To: owner-h-costume-digest@lunch.engr.sgi.com Precedence: bulk H-Costume Digest Friday, February 16 1996 Volume 4, Number 36 Compilation copyright (C) 1995 Diane Barlow Close and Gretchen Miller Use in whole prohibited. Individual articles are the property of the author. Seek permission from that author before reprinting or quoting elsewhere. Important Addresses: Send submissions to: h-costume@lunch.engr.sgi.com (or reply to this message). Adds/drops/archives: majordomo@lunch.engr.sgi.com Real, live person: h-costume-request@andrew.cmu.edu Topics: Re: English Renaissence Medieval Women's Undergarments Re: Medieval Women's Undergarments Hair Work sources Mongols Out of print costume books Holbein Fabric Selection Query Re: Out of print costume books Re: filling pin cushions Hair work book is Lacis Re- Braveheart fashions hand-sewing white hair bow? Re: Fabric Selection Query ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 15 Feb 1996 22:29:12 -0700 From: savaskan@electriciti.com (Julie Adams) Subject: Re: English Renaissence >Corduroy - I quite like it as a fabric, and have some non-period skirts >made of it. However, to the best of my knowledge it was not used in the >period I'm interested in - 16th century England, so I don't use it. I must >say that I find wool and velvet harder wearing. > >Caroline I have never seen examples of it on the continent or middle east in the 16th century either. Julie Adams ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 15 Feb 1996 22:29:17 -0700 From: savaskan@electriciti.com (Julie Adams) Subject: Medieval Women's Undergarments I was looking through my books and found an interesting closeup from the Wenceslas Bible (Bohemia, 1390-1400) in an illuminated address book (of all things), called Medieval Women. The picture actually resides within an illuminated "D". What is interested is that the two bath maids are in long strapless gowns which look to have some type of boned support. The reason I am hypothesizing this is because they are very tucked in at the waist (almost like 1860s corsets), and the top of the gowns look like the top line of corsets of that period as well. The top of the garment in the front looks to be 1/2" - 1" above the areole of the breast. The back is flat across the mid shoulder blades. There is at least a 1" deep scoop under the arm. These women are working, which means they are bending over to scoop and pour water on the bather.There are some vertical lines drawn in at the waist which could be casings for reeds or other boning (or could just be pleating). I am going to try too draw the view from the side in ASCII showing the arm pit: ____ ___ front| `---' | back | armscye | \\\ /// \\\\ //// ))) (((( //// \\\\\ I would like to hear some ideas (or hear if anyone has other period documentation) of what is supporting the gowns. Anyone who has tried on a corset before the bones are in knows the engineering problem this would cause without something to support the bust. One good bend forward and the front would flip over. My thoughts are that they are not just starched cloth, because it would relax under the steamy heat of the bath. I know that the 16th century German women wore a sleeveless chemise of a type used as normal undergarments. Any ideas? comments? documentation? Julie Adams (who hasn't done this period in years, but is now curious...) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 15 Feb 1996 23:49:42 -0800 (PST) From: Heather Rose Jones Subject: Re: Medieval Women's Undergarments On Thu, 15 Feb 1996, Julie Adams wrote: > I was looking through my books and found an interesting closeup from the > Wenceslas Bible (Bohemia, 1390-1400) in an illuminated address book (of all > things), called Medieval Women. The picture actually resides within an > illuminated "D". What is interested is that the two bath maids are in long > strapless gowns which look to have some type of boned support. The reason I Ah yes, the Bodacious Bohemian Bathhouse Babes! I've always considered this particular manuscript to be the "swimsuit edition" of medieval Bohemia. > am hypothesizing this is because they are very tucked in at the waist > (almost like 1860s corsets), and the top of the gowns look like the top > line of corsets of that period as well. The top of the garment in the front > looks to be 1/2" - 1" above the areole of the breast. The back is flat > across the mid shoulder blades. There is at least a 1" deep scoop under the > arm. These women are working, which means they are bending over to scoop > and pour water on the bather.There are some vertical lines drawn in at the > waist which could be casings for reeds or other boning (or could just be > pleating). I am going to try too draw the view from the side in ASCII > showing the arm pit: There is a whole set of pictures from this manuscript depicting bath-house attendents going about their work. Looking at the garments as a set, what we appear to have is a garment that is relatively tight (but not fitted) in the torso, flaring to a calf-length skirt. The top looks basically like a "tube-top" (but of woven fabric) with what today would be called spaghetti-straps. In some cases, the fabric is portrayed as sheer enough that you can see the woman's body through it. Often there is a sash at the waist. (Blue seems to have been a favorite color for this.) Other evidence in the manuscript suggests that this garment is simply an ordinary undergarment. In the illustration depicting the birth of Samson (f.34), his mother is depicted as wearing an identical-looking garment in childbed. I don't think that there is any need to interpret the garment as boned or stiffened in any way. If the ladies wearing them in the pictures look ... well... "firm" might be a delicate way of putting it, I think we have to understand that these illustrations were probably meant as erotica, and that young ... um ... sprightly bodies were portrayed. The apparent scoop under the arm is probably an artifact of the pull of the straps. The best collection of reproductions of this set of figures that I've seen is in Olga Sronkova's "Gothic Woman's Fashion" (Prague, 1954). Heather Rose Jones ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 16 Feb 1996 05:31:08 -0800 From: gwjchris@ix.netcom.com (Bill and Glenna Christen ) Subject: Hair Work sources You wrote: >Another they did with hair was make pictures with it...They couldn't >find any books on how this was done. Does anyone know of any? Contact: Ruth Gordon 24629 Cherry St. Dearborn, MI 48124-3103 (313) 277-2479 She teaches or just shows how it was done. Hair was also made into sentimental jewelry, watch chains etc. Hairwork has been done on an on-going basis in Sweden since at least the 19th Century. This is where Ms. Gordon gets her braiding tables etc. The book "The Art of Hair Work" by Mark Campbell has also been reprinted. I don't have the details, but I seem to remember it being an R.L. Shep republication. Correct me if I'm wrong! Glenna Jo Christen LHS, LSFS, MSAS & HSP gwjchris@ix.netcom.com Also ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 16 Feb 1996 07:46:04 -0600 (CST) From: "Maria A. Sanders" Subject: Mongols I need help finding clothing that the Mongols wore ca1000-1500. I have looked in several Chinese history/costume books, including "5000 Years of Chinese Clothing", but they tend to show mostly traditional robes and court clthing. I would prefer something simple such as what the Mongol warriors wore on campaign when not fighting and not in armor. As the event is also in March in Kansas, something on the warm side would be good as well. Any recommendation or suggestions would be appreciated. Maria marias@comp.uark.edu \\\|/// (O O) - -----------------------------oooO---U---Oooo---------------------------------- MARIA SANDERS LIBRARY ACQUISITIONS EMAIL: MARIAS@COMP PHONE: (501) 575-4657 OR FAX: (501) 575-6656 MARIAS@SATURN \\\|/// (O O) U O .........thanks.... - ----------------------------oooO-------Oooo----------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 16 Feb 1996 08:22:38 -0500 From: loutre@pipeline.com (Denny Stone) Subject: Out of print costume books In a recent posting a list member was trying to track down an out of fashion book. Does any one have names and addresses to share of book sellers who specialize in costume, fashion, textile books. I had heard of a company called Wooden Porch Books who specialized in out of print items, but can no longer find their address. Stone ------------------------------ Date: 16 Feb 96 16:22:00 GMT From: Mrs C S Yeldham Subject: Holbein someone asked me about London Museums: National Portrait Gallery St Martins Place London WC1H 0AE 0171 306 0055 lots of Tudor pictures, not so many Holbein National Gallery Trafalgar Square London WC2N 5DN 0171 839 3321 less specialised, lots of lovely early 16th Flemish Tate Gallery Millbank SW1 4RG 0171 887 8000 They held the 'Dynasties' exhibition recently (only just finished), and published a beautiful catalogue with the same name. I would write to them for details. All 16th and early 17th century portraits, including some quite rare ones (picture of Prince Arthur only just recognised). Some Holbein. There are also collections published of his work - check under Art books! Caroline ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 16 Feb 96 13:03:46 EST From: CS23001@MAINE.maine.edu Subject: Fabric Selection Query I have been enjoying reading the discussions these past few months regarding fabric selection for costuming projects and embroidery. Some of the suggestions have helped me understand what I will want to consider for future projects I would like to take up (some day...). My question to this newsgroup is this: Has anyone compiled a booklet/list of fabrics used in the Middle Ages/Renaissance and their counterparts today? I realize there could be more than one level of complexity to this question when you begin speaking of the construction of specific types of garments AND the way the materials were constructed in the Middle Ages. (multiple layers). There may also be language interpretation to consider (in English, German, etc..) and the various terms used to refer to the same item. This may be too elementary of a question for some members of this group. I know that given more time and face-to-face discussions (and frequent references to glossaries!) I will be able to piece together a better understanding of selecting materials for future costuming projects. It just seems to me that there must be someone who has taught a class with handouts, published a paper, or written a good chapter in a book that I have not yet encountered (or a webpage I have not yet seen). Any recommendations would be appreciated. Perhaps where I need to start is to understand what weight/blend of material is used for construction of different garments. I have no experience with any costuming classes or textile research. I'm just an ameteur learning how to sew medieval garments for my SCA hobby (ok, addiction). I might be better off approaching this question by asking: "If I want to make this garment X as described in text and picture by , what would I use as a modern equivalent for materials and construction technique?" Looking forward to any answers. Lisa Tyson ( SCA: "Bryn") ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 16 Feb 1996 10:53:00 -0800 (PST) From: close (Diane Barlow Close) Subject: Re: Out of print costume books Denny Stone wrote: > Does any one have names and addresses to share of book sellers who > specialize in costume, fashion, textile books. One person who specializes in locating out-of-print costume, fashion and textile books, and who is also on-line, is Bette Feinstein . Here are the details on her service: Bette S. Feinstein Hard-to-Find Needlework Books 96 Roundwood Road, Newton MA 02164-1217 617-969-0942 tel/fax Email: feinstein@umbsky.cc.umb.edu HPage: http://www.ambook.org/bookstore/needlework HPage: http://www.tiac.net/users/needlewk Catalogues issued and downloadable. - - Often has quite a few out of print patterns, some dated in the 50's and some earlier. Occassionally also has some from the turn of the century. Runs a free search service. - -- Diane Close I'm at lunch all day. :-) If a Canadian Had Said It First (The Globe & Mail): "The price of freedom is eternal vigilance plus GST." ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 16 Feb 1996 10:46:38 -0800 (PST) From: Irene Joshi Subject: Re: filling pin cushions Look at the latest issues of "Piece work"magazine to see an article on hair jewelry, etc. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 16 Feb 1996 10:53:17 -0800 (PST) From: Irene Joshi Subject: Hair work book is Lacis Author: Campbell, Mark Contributors: Kliot, Jules (Introduction by); Kliot, Kaethe (Editor) Title: The Art of Hair Work: Hair Braiding and Jewelry of Sentiment Edition: Reprint ed. Publisher: Lacis Publications Year: 1993 Pages: 208p. ISBN/Price: 0-916896-31-5 Trade Paper $20.00 Audience: College Subj (BIP): HAIRDRESSING. HAIRDRESSING-HISTORY Subj (Pbk): HEALTH-AND-PHYSICAL-EDUCATION-BEAUTY ------------------------------ Date: 16 Feb 1996 14:18:07 -0800 From: "Carole Newson-Smith" Subject: Re- Braveheart fashions 2/16/96 2:09 PM Re: Braveheart fashions Lissa asks: : I was wondering how I might go about making :one of the costumes that Princess Isabelle wore in that movie. : What are the dresses called :and what were the other pieces of clothing she wore called? What kind : of accessories did she wear? Isabelle was the French bride of Edward II of England. It's been a few months since I saw the film, but my dim recollection is that her clothing looked French, rather than English. I really liked the white rabbit fur she wore on her head underneath a metal framework. There was one pink dress that set my teeth on edge, because I believe (please, correct me if I am misinformed) that panne' velvet does not go that far back. For dates, keep in mind that William Wallace was executed in 1305, and that Edward I of England died in 1307. (Yes, I am aware that the movie played a bit loose with historical dates, but I don't mind.) I would suggest that French portraits, prayer books and books of hours from that era would also be helpful. If you've never seen a reproduction of the Tres Riche Heures of the Duc du Berry, I think you'd enjoy looking through one. Carole ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 16 Feb 1996 18:29:31 -0500 From: twinstar@inch.com (David Gorgos) Subject: hand-sewing All the recent postings on hand-sewing have been very inter4esting and encouraging. I don't have a sewing machine and really enjoy sewing by hand, and was delighted to hear one might be able to do a proct by hand. My problem is, I have only minimal esperience in sewing,( some simple embridiary, doll dresses and the occasional simple skirt) and was wondering how I could learn to hand-sew more complicated projects. Can anyone reccommend a book? Also, could you all reccommend a good Victorian/Edwarian (1880-1920) clothing pattern which may be good for a first try project (i.e., simple, fast, etc.)? Thanks. - --Arielle "We're a capital couple, Bloom and I/he polishes the Earth, I brighten the sky." --the singing, levitating lemon soap from _Ulysses_ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 16 Feb 1996 18:41:33 -0500 From: twinstar@inch.com (David Gorgos) Subject: white hair bow? Hi...I really want to make an oversized white hair bow like young women wore in the Victorian/Edwardian era...can anyone help me? I think a lot of the more upper class women wore them starched, but younger girls and lower class girls wore them floppy. What fabric could I use and how would I go about making such a thing? I also know Edwardian young women wore black satin bows on the tops of their heads..anyone know the correct pattern for how they tied those bows? Thanks. - --Arielle "We're a capital couple, Bloom and I/he polishes the Earth, I brighten the sky." --the singing, levitating lemon soap from _Ulysses_ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 16 Feb 1996 15:28:49 -0600 (CST) From: Teresa Shannon Subject: Re: Fabric Selection Query > > My question to this newsgroup is this: Has anyone compiled a > > booklet/list of fabrics used in the Middle Ages/Renaissance and > > their counterparts today? I realize there could be more than one > > level of complexity to this question when you begin speaking of the > > construction of specific types of garments AND the way the materials > > were constructed in the Middle Ages. (multiple layers). There may also > > be language interpretation to consider (in English, German, etc..) > > and the various terms used to refer to the same item. > man, would I LOVE to find something like this! > Does anyone know if one exists? > Drea > Unless someone has done private research, which would be time consuming, but not impossible, and even better wishes to shop around in Europe, Asia and expensive places in NA to see what fabric is currently being produced and how...than the answer is no. It is possible smaller reenactment groups have done this on a small level, but no publication found in libraries or bookstores contain this. It would be referenced in too many bibliographies if it was, and I live for bibliographies. What you need is this: someone who can look at fabric as a weaver and say whether it is a z-twist, a s-twist how many floaters, etc of modern fabrics. Someone with information on where specific modern fabrics were processed and dyed and whether they were aniline dyes, natural, etc. Someone to pour through the books from archaeological samples of recovered fabrics which do state the weave. Someone who understands foreign colloquial terms and period terms of textile use. Wills and wardrobe accounts of people's actual clothing specifying fabric type and color. Someone with a good knowledge of the modern fabric industry (say me with asian silks) that can start matching or finding the samples for the weaver to identify. And someone to write this all up. Flat out, there are fabrics, say most, that we aren't reproducing. I have found some documentation stating how often artist designers in Lucca and Florence changed their designs for brocades per month, and its phenomenal. Likewise much of the same wool and quality of linen is not being raised/grown, processing is different the scarlets and luxury wools of the past just don't exist, although there are very expensive and luxurious modern wools. Finding the see through wool challis and linen involves going to Europe and searching. Real matelasse isn't woven anymore cloque has taken its name and place. Would you really scour the globe to see even what modern fabrics are available? I'm trying casually and I really need a helping hand. If this list wants to create something like that, and I think it would be a first, all of us might have the resources to get some of it started, if you are looking for a quick fix at the library, alas you will not find what you (and many of us) seek. By the gods, I'm willing to pay 75-100.00/yard for real silk and metallic brocade in medieavalish patterns! Even La Lame is getting dull since Rayon is all wrong. Sigh, Teresa ------------------------------ End of H-Costume Digest V4 #36 ****************************** A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to subscribe to that instead, send the command lines: unsubscribe h-costume-digest subscribe h-costume end in the body of a message to majordomo@lunch.engr.sgi.com. Thanks and enjoy the list!