From: owner-h-costume-digest (H-Costume Digest) To: h-costume-digest@lunch.engr.sgi.com Subject: H-Costume Digest V4 #37 Reply-To: h-costume Sender: owner-h-costume-digest@lunch.engr.sgi.com Errors-To: owner-h-costume-digest@lunch.engr.sgi.com Precedence: bulk H-Costume Digest Saturday, February 17 1996 Volume 4, Number 37 Compilation copyright (C) 1995 Diane Barlow Close and Gretchen Miller Use in whole prohibited. Individual articles are the property of the author. Seek permission from that author before reprinting or quoting elsewhere. Important Addresses: Send submissions to: h-costume@lunch.engr.sgi.com (or reply to this message). Adds/drops/archives: majordomo@lunch.engr.sgi.com Real, live person: h-costume-request@andrew.cmu.edu Topics: Costume Books CC14 Re: Medieval Women's Undergarments Re: Mongols Re: Medieval Women's Undergarments Re: Block printing of fabric Re: Old thread Block Printing Re: Fabric Selection Query Re: Medieval Women's Undergarments Re: Old thread Re: Medieval Women's Undergarments Wedding Hankie/Baby cap ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 16 Feb 1996 19:32:22 -0500 From: KenDawe@aol.com Subject: Costume Books At Barnes & Noble today I saw a book entitled "A Guide to Period Costume" or somehting like that; author;s name was Blaskowski (spelling?) Looks like a short Period Costume Encyclopedia. Any good? I did noticed, BTW, that most of their costume books are under Theater, in case anyone's looking under Art or Crafts, which is where most bookstores seem to keep them. Ken Dawe kendawe@aol.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 16 Feb 1996 19:32:23 -0500 From: KenDawe@aol.com Subject: CC14 In a message dated 96-02-07 18:53:59 EST, owner-h-costume-digest@lunch.engr.sgi.com (H-Costume Digest) writes: >Date: Tue, 6 Feb 1996 10:34:46 -0800 (PST) >From: Teresa Gallagher >Subject: Costume Con > >Does anyone know if you can pay a daily rate to say, visit merchants, look >at garb, etc. without having to buck $65? > >Teresa G. At this time there is no established "Daily" rate; a decision as to whether or not to establish one will be made approxiamtely mid-April, but it seems at this time that the Con will reach "critical Mass" with "Full" members. There may be a "Masquerade Only" membership, however, and you should not need a membership to simply visit the hucksters room; unless there have been changes in the law, it is illegal in WA for them to keep you out. Ken Dawe kendawe@aol.com "Sure, it's a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity, but so's suicide." > > ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 16 Feb 1996 22:56:30 -0700 From: savaskan@electriciti.com (Julie Adams) Subject: Re: Medieval Women's Undergarments >There is a whole set of pictures from this manuscript depicting >bath-house attendents going about their work. Looking at the garments as >a set, what we appear to have is a garment that is relatively tight (but >not fitted) in the torso, flaring to a calf-length skirt. The top looks >basically like a "tube-top" (but of woven fabric) with what today would > I don't think that there is any need to interpret the garment >as boned or stiffened in any way. If the ladies wearing them in the >pictures look ... well... "firm" might be a delicate way of putting it, I >think we have to understand that these illustrations were probably meant >as erotica, and that young ... um ... sprightly bodies were portrayed. I don't see anything that looks even close to spagetti straps in the particular picture I am looking at. The fabric is quite opaque. And these ladies are fairly large in the bust. While it certainly may be medieval erotic, the ladies could be "firm", but could clearly be supported just as well. At least one is quite well endowed. You really don't need much bust for a even a tube top even to roll over when you are bending over. The other interesting issue is that the line really is more like a 1860s corset in the way it lays from hip to bust, with the bust actually "settling" into the body of the gown, vice being pushed upward. There is a smooth line from waist to bust, no dents inward under the bust. The waist looks very pinched to me. >The apparent scoop under the arm is probably an artifact of the pull of >the straps. This would be hard as there are no straps. The artist shows every other pull or wrinkle in the gown. If it were merely a pull, it would not have such sharp corners. Perhaps there are others that do have spagetti straps and are built as you say, but I don't believe that is what this particular illumination shows. Julie Adams ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 17 Feb 96 03:31:00 PST From: "Tobey, Pam" Subject: Re: Mongols You might try "Mongol Costumes," by Henny Harald Hansen, copyright 1993, The Carlsberg Foundation's Nomad Research Project. Publisher is Thames and Hudson, 500 Fifth Ave., NY, NY 10110; ISBN: 0-500-01585-6. It is a "comprehesive analysis of garment from nearly all the twenty Mongol tribes" from the jacket notes. The costumes are from the National Museum of Denmark and the Musee de l'Homme in Paris. It is full of photographs and line drawings of all kinds of garments, shoes and accessories and some diagrams that show construction. My conjecture is that the styles have not changed a great deal over the centuries, but then I am not an historian, just guessing. It is a beautiful book, though. And the bibliography is quite extensive. Good luck with your research. Pam tobeypam@washpost.com ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 17 Feb 1996 04:21:06 -0500 (EST) From: Judy Gerjuoy Subject: Re: Medieval Women's Undergarments On Fri, 16 Feb 1996, Julie Adams wrote: > I don't see anything that looks even close to spagetti straps in the > particular picture I am looking at. The fabric is quite opaque. And these > ladies are fairly large in the bust. While it certainly may be medieval > erotic, the ladies could be "firm", but could clearly be supported just as > well. At least one is quite well endowed. You really don't need much bust > for a even a tube top even to roll over when you are bending over. The > other interesting issue is that the line really is more like a 1860s corset > in the way it lays from hip to bust, with the bust actually "settling" into > the body of the gown, vice being pushed upward. There is a smooth line from > waist to bust, no dents inward under the bust. The waist looks very pinched > to me. I have seen the set of pictures also, and I agree with Heather's conclusions. The problem is that you are seeing one from a set. Some of the dresses do have the straps, some do not. Some, in a set I have from a contemporary, but not neccessarily the same source that Heather refers to (the text is in German which I don't read well), some of the gowns are transparent, and some are not. But, all the women are obviously bath house girls, and it is clear that they are meant as eroticia. > This would be hard as there are no straps. The artist shows every other > pull or wrinkle in the gown. If it were merely a pull, it would not have > such sharp corners. Perhaps there are others that do have spagetti straps > and are built as you say, but I don't believe that is what this particular > illumination shows. Again, it is much easier to see what it meant when you see the entire set. Jaelle jaelle@access.digex.net If the world were merely seductive, that would be easy. If it were merely challenging, that would be no problem. But I arise in the morning torn between a desire to improve the world, and a desire to enjoy the world. This makes it hard to plan the day. - E. B. White ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 17 Feb 1996 13:06:19 GMT From: dickie@bozzie.demon.co.uk (Paul C. Dickie) Subject: Re: Block printing of fabric In message <960209101952_418473383@mail06.mail.aol.com> Mazelle@aol.com writes: > I have dated block printing back to at least the 1400's in Germany and Italy. > It was used to simulate cut velvets. Presumably, if that was its purpose, they'd have been printing velvet with a suitable gum to keep the pile flat as the "ground" to the design? Or was that something else and completely different? (ISTR that there's a reference to "gumm'd velvet" in Henry IV, part 1, but cannot presently locate it; someone is said to be fretting "like gumm'd velvet" and the implication seems to be that such a fabric soon wore out) < Paul > ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 17 Feb 1996 13:45:26 GMT From: dickie@bozzie.demon.co.uk (Paul C. Dickie) Subject: Re: Old thread In message Marsha Hamilton writes: > >>Is it just me or are threads getting weaker? > > > >..........customers were always returning > >thread that was on sale because it was too weak and breaking, esp. the > >cone thread for sergers. When I asked my manager he said that The sale > >stuff is aged thus weaker. So if you buy thread on sale beware....it > >is old and will break. ....... > > This is interesting because I use thread that is over 35 years old and it > doesn't break in my heavy duty machine. Back in the late 50's/early 60's, > my Dad bought two large thread display counters from a fabric store that > went out of business. We had a dozen spools of every color of the rainbow. > Being uninformed back then, we stored the thread in the worst conditions, > our uninsulated attic that was 110 degrees in summer. When I left home, we > divided the large stock and I continue to use it today. It is mercerized > 100% cotton thread and never gives me any trouble. I can think of three, possible reasons why newer, cheaper threads should be weaker: 1) The threads may have been spun from shorter staple cotton, or using less long-staple cotton. 2) The spinning machinery may well be different; in the 1950's, I'd expect there to have been a mixture of "ring-spinning" with some still spun by mule. 3) Perhaps the hydroxides used to mercerize the thread have beem changed since the 1950's, due to their toxic effects on the workforce? < Paul > ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 17 Feb 1996 11:50:17 -0500 (EST) From: "Gwyneth H. Crowley" Subject: Block Printing Hi. I am finding this conversation on block printing interesting. I have dabbled in this art. I belong to the SCA and have made some delightful favors and tablecloths. I am still a beginner at this but I found wood blocks hard to I hae. ve themhad some success with larger designs though. Lineleum has worked well for smaller patterns. The roller does need to constantly rolled against a flat surface (I use a plate of glass) to keep the paint layer even and not too thick. Also, applying the same amount of pressure to each part of the block is important. I use a hammer at the same spots every time I press. Hand pressing just wasn't working out. Please pardon me and let me know if this is off the topic on this list. An acquaintance once told me (she gives lectures at the Cloisters) that blocking was done to mimic the brocades of the rich and this fabric was really used by the middle class. So now I am really curious to know what gummed velvet is? When I find more stuff out, I'll you know. I am a librarian for a reason! Gwyneth Crowley ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 17 Feb 1996 09:42:32 -0700 From: savaskan@electriciti.com (Julie Adams) Subject: Re: Fabric Selection Query > This may be too elementary of a question for some members >of this group. I know that given more time and face-to-face >discussions (and frequent references to glossaries!) I will be >able to piece together a better understanding of selecting >materials for future costuming projects. It just seems to me >that there must be someone who has taught a class with handouts, >published a paper, or written a good chapter in a book that >I have not yet encountered (or a webpage I have not yet seen). Mistress Astra Benedict of Caid has taught a class on Italian Ren. Fabrics, but she is not on this list that I know of. Each period and country would be different. A single book would be huge and change year to year as mills produced different fabrics. Many smaller groups do have swatch samples that they provide to members. > I might be better off approaching this question by asking: >"If I want to make this garment X as described in text and picture > by , what would I use as a modern equivalent for materials > and construction technique?" Definitely much more productive. Try it! Julie Adams Julie Adams Savaskan Anatolians http://www.electriciti.com/~savaskan/homepage.html ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 17 Feb 1996 10:03:52 -0700 From: savaskan@electriciti.com (Julie Adams) Subject: Re: Medieval Women's Undergarments Heather said: >Looking at the garments as >a set, what we appear to have is a garment that is relatively tight (but >not fitted) in the torso, flaring to a calf-length skirt. The top looks >basically like a "tube-top" (but of woven fabric) with what today would >be called spaghetti-straps. In some cases, the fabric is portrayed as >sheer enough that you can see the woman's body through it. Often there is >a sash at the waist. Jaelle said: >I have seen the set of pictures also, and I agree with Heather's >conclusions. The problem is that you are seeing one from a set. So you are both discounting the idea that there could be two or more different types of undergarments worn in the same period? A strapless type and a non-strapless type? A sheer and an opaque? Why would the assumption be that the artist made a mistake in his representations of the strapless garments? Why not a supporting or waist cinching type so that non-perfect people can get "the look"? A hundred years later I have documentation in the Holy Roman Empire that supports several types of chemises and levels of supportage/cinching.... I believe they are medieval erotica, but does that mean that the garments are fantasy? Clearly at least one type is seen in _1_ other document. Why would that one example discount the possibility that the others are also real, but distinct different types? The best costumes I have seen reproducing this period have had some type of support in the undergarment or even corsetry. Then the sillouette looked "right". I have seen some bodacious modern women with a comparable body shape in them, but the sillouette of the dresses do not look the same at all. The women in my picture even have the pushed down stomach that a 19th cent. corset produces when the waist is pinched. The flesh must go somewhere. What do you propose that the little vertical lines are? Seams? Darts? Just playing the Devil's advocate here... Julie Adams ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 17 Feb 1996 14:27:02 -0500 From: "L. R. Peters" Subject: Re: Old thread >In message Marsha Hamilton writes: >> >>Is it just me or are threads getting weaker? Synthetic materials are usually based on some form of polyester, nylon, or resin-based compounds, and even spun plastics. These synthetics may be soft and pliable when new, but will age when exposed to ultraviolet, sunlight or heat. If used as a core around which other fibers are wrapped to make thread, the material is going to age and become brittle much quicker than almost any organic material. Cotton thread (and cloth) stands aging much better than synthetics. As an aside, during the early 1980's the U.S. Army switched from the old steel combat helmet with an insertable micarta linerr to the Kevlar "Fritz helmet" currently being worn by the military, many police units, and even some allied powers. The Kevlar helmet when new, is supposed to stop a .30 caliber rifle bullet at 100 feet. However, these helmets have a short shelf life of about 5 years, afterwhich they are withdrawn from use. The Kevlar "fabric" begins to delaminate after being dropped several times, or after about 5 or 6 years and may no longer stop a bullet. If a synthetic material begins to age and become brittle, then the threads with synthetic components are going to experience similar problems. If a all-natural cotton or woolen garment is still realtively durable after 50, 75 or even 100 years than it should be a suprise that threads of the same material are equally as durable. If the thread is weak, then I would suspect some amount of synthetics being used, probably less than 5-10%, regardless of what the label claims. Les ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 17 Feb 1996 11:43:31 -0800 (PST) From: Heather Rose Jones Subject: Re: Medieval Women's Undergarments On Fri, 16 Feb 1996, Julie Adams wrote: > I don't see anything that looks even close to spagetti straps in the > particular picture I am looking at. The fabric is quite opaque. And these > ladies are fairly large in the bust. While it certainly may be medieval > erotic, the ladies could be "firm", but could clearly be supported just as > well. At least one is quite well endowed. You really don't need much bust > for a even a tube top even to roll over when you are bending over. The > other interesting issue is that the line really is more like a 1860s corset > in the way it lays from hip to bust, with the bust actually "settling" into > the body of the gown, vice being pushed upward. There is a smooth line from > waist to bust, no dents inward under the bust. The waist looks very pinched > to me. > > >The apparent scoop under the arm is probably an artifact of the pull of > >the straps. > > This would be hard as there are no straps. The artist shows every other > pull or wrinkle in the gown. If it were merely a pull, it would not have > such sharp corners. Perhaps there are others that do have spagetti straps > and are built as you say, but I don't believe that is what this particular > illumination shows. Ok, it sounds like the particular picture you're looking at is more like the one on f.174r of the original manuscrpt. My general point is that the Wenceslas Bible has a very large number of portrayals of variations of this particular garment. It's an astoundingly rich resource for the dress of a particular occupation in a particular time and place. And one of the delightful things about the collection of illustrations is that there _is_ a fair amount of variation in the details of what is clearly the same basic garment. The fabric ranges from sheer to opaque; the skirts vary in fullness; the straps may be present or not, and if present range from about an inch and a half wide to extremely narrow (ca. 1/2 inch); the straps, if present, may appear to be the same fabric as the dress or may be in a contrasting fabric; if the latter, there is usually a band of the same contrasting fabric along the top edge of the dress; one shows both these items and the hem decorated with a design of lines and dots; one illustration clearly shows a center front seam, most give no indication of seam lines at all; most are worn with a sash tied as a belt, but some are worn with nothing belt-like. Another source, the Jena Codex, shows yet another variation on the style - -- also from Bohemia, possibly from slightly later (I haven't been able to track down the date of the manuscript). Here, the contrasting strap and band style appears but with the body of the dress clearly gathered into the upper band. While the interpretation that you suggest may be not inconsistant with the details of the particular illustration from the manuscript that you are working with, I think that if you looked at the entire set of illustrations you would come to a different conclusion. All too often we only _have_ a single portrayal of something we are trying to understand, but in this case, we are rich almost beyond belief. I don't know how accessible the book I mentioned last time (Gothic Woman's Fashion) is, given that it was published in Prague. Two plates from it, as well as one from the Jena Codex appear on pp.451-3 of "The Pictorial Encyclopedia of Fashion" by Kybalova, Herbenova & Lamarova, which I have seen fairly often in used book stores and seems to appear on my friends' bookshelves relatively frequently. (The ideal, of course, would be to track down complete facsimilies of both manuscripts. The UCB library lists a book about the Jena Codex, which I now plan to go track down, but I haven't been able to find anything focussing on the Wenceslas Bible. I've always been rather fond of this item of clothing and had always meant to do some serious research on it. Thanks for the kick-start.) Heather Rose Jones ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 17 Feb 1996 20:47:53 -0500 (EST) From: Elsa Wachs Subject: Wedding Hankie/Baby cap I am interested in things pertaining to the Wedding Hankie that is made into an infants cap:... 1. Pattern or instuctions 2. Poems that go with them 3. History of this folk art 4. Folk lore connected to this If any one has any answers please send them directly to me at efw@netaxs.com I am waiting for my subscription request to be processed. Thank you Elsa Wachs ------------------------------ End of H-Costume Digest V4 #37 ****************************** A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to subscribe to that instead, send the command lines: unsubscribe h-costume-digest subscribe h-costume end in the body of a message to majordomo@lunch.engr.sgi.com. Thanks and enjoy the list!