From: owner-h-costume-digest (H-Costume Digest) To: h-costume-digest@lunch.engr.sgi.com Subject: H-Costume Digest V4 #40 Reply-To: h-costume Sender: owner-h-costume-digest@lunch.engr.sgi.com Errors-To: owner-h-costume-digest@lunch.engr.sgi.com Precedence: bulk H-Costume Digest Wednesday, February 21 1996 Volume 4, Number 40 Compilation copyright (C) 1995 Diane Barlow Close and Gretchen Miller Use in whole prohibited. Individual articles are the property of the author. Seek permission from that author before reprinting or quoting elsewhere. Important Addresses: Send submissions to: h-costume@lunch.engr.sgi.com (or reply to this message). Adds/drops/archives: majordomo@lunch.engr.sgi.com Real, live person: h-costume-request@andrew.cmu.edu Topics: Re: Skirt placket and fastening The minuet Re: software demos Tangentally-Related Question Cleaning fur Re: ATHE ONLINE: Costume history query fittingly demo Mid Victorians Re: Skirt placket and fastening Gloves in the ballroom Re: Any other mid-Victorians Re: Skirt placket and fastening Re: fittingly demo Raised arms in dance Bongrace and lappets BIG snaps Corset web page Big snaps = Wopper Poppers Re: fittingly sew demo RE: Big snaps = Wopper Poppers ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 20 Feb 1996 13:40:25 -0500 From: Elizabeth Lear Subject: Re: Skirt placket and fastening >I am making a skirt to go over a hoop, and I am pleating it to a = >waistband. What is the best way to handle the closure in the back. I = >don't want to use a zipper, of course, and would like to use some sort = >of hook and eye/trouser fastener on it. How do I prevent it from = >gaping, etc., etc.,? I've never had a problem using hooks and eyes on the waistband. If you're using enough fabric (I use about 4 yards, usually), there's enough overlap to hide the gap. And you can always put another hook and eye on the gap to hold it closed. And remember you only need enough of a gap to get the skirt on over your head and down to your waist. It shouldn't be too much. ...eliz ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Feb 1996 14:09:29 -0500 From: Gaelscot@aol.com Subject: The minuet Mea culpa! Of course dancers touched during the minuet, I dont' know where my mind was when I wrote that. My point was (or should have been) that while dancers touched hands during the minuet, they spent major portions of the dance dancing alone. The minuet was not a "couple dance" as we think of them today. Today's standard "ballroom position" with the woman in the man's arms was unknown and, when introduced, considered shocking in some circles. Sorry for the error. Gail Finke/gaelscot@aol.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Feb 1996 14:12:16 -0500 From: deirdre@sover.net (Deirdre) Subject: Re: software demos At 12:56 PM 2/20/96, Robin Findlay wrote: >I called the numbers and they are out of buisness. > >Best Wishes Is there an email address for them? I might want to negotiate carrying on with the Mac product since I was intending to do same. _Deirdre http://www.sover.net/~deirdre The net can't be controlled, but they can sure mess it up trying. It will be like hemp: the yarn and the paper are gone, but the nasty uses linger on. - -- Joy Beeson (jbeeson@globalone.net) from a post to the knit list on 2/17/96 ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Feb 96 13:48:00 CST From: "Lassman, Linda" Subject: Tangentally-Related Question This is only tangentally related to historic costuming, but does anyone know the name of Buster Brown's dog? Please just e-mail me directly! My apologies for taking up bandwidth on this one! - Linda Lassman Winnipeg, Manitoba lassman@bldgdafoe.lan1.umanitoba.ca ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Feb 1996 11:51:56 +0000 From: "Leslie Helms" Subject: Cleaning fur Nea- You'll get many better responses, I'm sure, but your question reminded me of an old method I haven't tried; perhaps someone has and can report on it. Corn meal can be rubbed into the fur and thoroughly brushed and shaken out. The reference (forgotten) is an old one, so I suspect that the meal they had in mind would not be the uniform, defatted sort from the supermarket. I'd try the co-op or health food store versions, with irregular grind and a fairly high fat content. And, of course, keep any moisture out of the process! I believe that the combination of starch and fiber are intended to abrade away dirt, and the corn oil to recondition the fur. Leslie leslieh@canfield.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Feb 1996 14:55:31 -0600 (CST) From: Teresa Shannon Subject: Re: ATHE ONLINE: Costume history query > > > >Does anyone know of any current research or resources on British and/or > >European sumptuary laws as pertaining to costume history? > >Our most current text is copyrighted 1928. We need responses ASAP! Please > >e-mail to thjoa@ttacs1.ttu.edu. > >Thank you. > > > > > Kat > Katherine L. Rodman > afn25136@afn.org > Gainesville, FL > > "Blessed are they who can laugh at themselves, for they shall never cease to > be amused." > You must be referring to Frances Elizabeth Baldwins Sumptuary Legislation in Medieval England (not exact title). I am afraid while there are several scholars working with it, a female professor whose name I have somewhere here just did a paper at a Stanford conference, and there is someone at Georgetown, but no work has been published recently that is as seminal as that one. I have been referenced also to a Victorian, but compared to Baldwin, well the only thing left that I use is actual english parlimentary and leet jurisdiction, and agricultural records of import and exports relating how expensive comparative colors and fabric types were. If you are interested, I can go home and do some hunting. But the answer is yes and no, there are studies, no texts to compare with Baldwins that have been published up to a few years ago that I am aware of. If you get any other responses, please I should be interested. Caveat: I only look for 14th century England, there is much information on Elizabethan sumptuary legislation that is contained elsewhere. Prof. Lynn Laufenberg at Cornell University gave the paper on english sumptuary and may have better sources than I can give, track her down. Teresa Univ of Wisconsin-Milwaukee ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Feb 1996 14:38:18 -0800 From: bd927@scn.org (Susan Courney) Subject: fittingly demo Greetings: It is still possible to download the fittingly sew demo from www.shareware.com (as of last week). If you don't do web browsering, but can ftp things I'll try to figure out an address. If you let me know. Susan ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Feb 1996 15:05:58 -0800 From: kondoa@ucs.orst.edu Subject: Mid Victorians How "mid" is "mid Victorian'? I like just about everything except the 1860's. Hoopskirts just don't appeal to me. I really love the 1830's, with the really outrageous, overdecorated gowns, but most of that is just barley pre-victorian. Anyone else like 1830's? Alison ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Feb 1996 17:13:26 -0800 From: gwjchris@ix.netcom.com (Bill and Glenna Christen ) Subject: Re: Skirt placket and fastening You wrote: > >I am making a skirt to go over a hoop, and I am pleating it to a >waistband. What is the best way to handle the closure in the back. >How do I prevent it from gaping, etc., etc.,? If the skirt is attached to the bodice as most skirts tended to be back in the hoop skirt era, the skirt would open in the front slightly to one side of center in a "dog leg" manner from the center front bodice opening. The way the skirts kept from gapping is that the overlap was very deep, and the pleats laid very smooth. They had a lot of fabric at the top to play with, even after they started goring their skirts in the early 1860's. Glenna Jo Christen LHS, LSFS, MSAS & HSP gwjchris@ix.netcom.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Feb 1996 17:27:45 -0800 From: gwjchris@ix.netcom.com (Bill and Glenna Christen ) Subject: Gloves in the ballroom You wrote: > >As a matter of fact, the waltz was considered shocking when it was first >introduced. Men were told to wear gloves so that their hand would not be in >direct contact with the woman's back. If they didn't have gloves, they were >told to at least use a handkerchief. Gloves were required not because the dance was shocking (although it was at first, IMHO that's partly why it caught on :-)!), but more importantly a sweaty hand would very likely mark or stain the lady's silk gown. The requirement for wearing white gloves in the ballroom still holds true today, at least for very formal occasions. Glenna Jo Christen LHS, LSFS, MSAS & HSP gwjchris@ix.netcom.com > ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Feb 1996 13:33:25 +1100 (EST) From: Fiona Thorne Subject: Re: Any other mid-Victorians LuAnn, I am interested in c1800-1901, so I am interested in your era. I just don't get time to make much. I have just sort of completed an 1860s era dress, which I made as a bodice and top. (Erin, thanks for all the help - the ruffle worked out well). It's in a wearable state at present, but needs a few ends finished off (eg the concealed button holes are only cut, not shown). As usual, I was putting the buttons on as I cooked the lunch to take to the function that I needed the dress for. And now I need a new blue bonnet to go with the dress. Fiona On Mon, 19 Feb 1996 LuAnnMason@aol.com wrote: > Are there any other mid-Victorian costumers out there? I'm feeling a bit > lost on the board! :) I just thought I'd see if there were any other > "lurkers" like me out there.... > > LuAnn > > ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Feb 1996 22:24:40 -0500 From: NeaDods@aol.com Subject: Re: Skirt placket and fastening I always solved the gapping placket problem by putting a hook on each end of the waistband overlap. Ascii drawings are not my forte, but let me try... the X's represent hooks, and the lines are, of course, the two meeting ends of the waistband. ----------- X X --------------- For the really heavy skirts, I also hook the back of the skirt to the blouse or (if I'm wearing one) the bottom of the vest. Taking the weight off the waistband is one way to eliminate stress on the placket. Nea neadods@aol.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Feb 1996 22:19:34 -0600 (CST) From: Kerri Potratz Subject: Re: fittingly demo Let me know what you think of Fittingly Sew--I tried the demo, but I'm scared to actually buy the program if they are making leaps and bounds in improvements on it. This really has me curious. btw anyone hiring a costume tech with a BFA to be completed in May? *Kerri Potratz**University of South Dakota* / /\ \ *Kpotratz@sunfish.usd.edu \ \/ / \/ ==If I be waspish, best beware my sting!== Shrew, II.i ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Feb 1996 20:37:52 -0800 (PST) From: Allan Terry Subject: Raised arms in dance Yes, most physical partner contact in 18th-century dance was limited to taking hands, in both couple and country dances. However, there is an improvisational dance called the allemande described by Guillaume in 1769, and by Dubois in an undated manual usually assumed to be from the 1770s. The allemande was popular from at least this early till the end of the 18th century. It may have lasted into the Regency period; we have Regency manuals with music for the allemande but it's not clear what was being done to it. Anyway, the allemande is probably derived from the German landler and consists of simple steps--rather folky for the 18th century--and many improvised "passes" with the arms. I've done and taught it, but in modern clothes. Guillaume's manual has plates of some arm positions. The arms are often raised well over the head and bent into some rather contorted positions even though both partners are wearing tight sleeves. I only have a xerox of the manual. Judging from it the clothes were strained under the armpits and the sleeves were wrinkled. But this didn't stop the dancers from using high arm positions. The last plate shows a face-to-face position with a hold similar to the Victorian waltz. (Unfortunately the only pictures I have from the Dubois manual are redrawings.) One notable aspect of the Regency waltz (actually the first waltz manual I know of has four distinct waltzes, in terms of steps and tempos) is that the dancers were expected to progress through a variety of arm positions (and possibly through all the four waltzes). The waltz is also supposed to be derived from the landler. But I've often wondered whether it was instead derived directly from or influenced by the allemande. The waltz was done in Paris in the 1790s. We don't have any 1790s instructions in our library, but we do have French pictures of couples who appear to be waltzing. Fran Grimble ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Feb 1996 10:54:16 -0600 (CST) From: "Alison Hoyer" Subject: Bongrace and lappets I think this is my first message to this list, so I'll introduce myself first: I am Australian, and my Danish husband and I perform with the dance group Anello, which is based in Copenhagen, and expertly and charmingly led by Jorgen Schou-Pederson. We aim to recreate court dances, our period is 1575-1610, and we make our costumes as authentic as possible. I am seeking information on a headgear illustration from the book _The Mode in Hats and Headdress_ by R.Turner Wilcox, Scribner & Sons, NY 1946. Page 105, lower right corner: A black velvet bongrace with pleated black taffeta lappets with pearl pendants, Italian, 1583. Can anybody tell me where to find other illusrations of this style, or where the painting is located? I know I have seen a better illustration but it was years ago, studying history, and that was in Australia, so I can't exactly go and find it! Is the correct term for what I am asking provenance (sp) ? In a fog of barely-remembered history, Alison Hoyer, Denmark. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Feb 1996 02:05:50 +0000 From: "Leslie Helms" Subject: BIG snaps Purists, please cover your eyes for a moment . . . Upholstery shops, outdoor equipment dealers, boating shops, and canvas suppliers are all sources of heavy-duty snaps. You may find they have some surprising theatrical costuming aids! I'd appreciate someone reposting the address for the corset page; I can't find it! Leslie leslieh@canfield.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Feb 96 09:24 CST From: tallison@mcs.com (Tim Allison) Subject: Corset web page > >Everyone, > >I'm planning to put together a list of resources specifically for >elizabethan costuming and add it to the corset web page. What is the address, please? Thanks Carol Mitchell ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Feb 96 10:50:49 est From: Hilary_Oak_at_SLU1@ccmaillink.stlawu.edu Subject: Big snaps = Wopper Poppers Ah yes, They are not period correct, but then neither is the sewing machine for most time frames of fashion! In the theatre biz we call them Wopper Poppers and could no more live without them than (gasp) Velcro! Once again, two of my favorite sources for such things are: Baer Fabrics in Louisville, KY (800) 769-7778 and Richard the Thread in L.A., CA. (800) 473-4997 and there is the good old standby for theatrical notions: Greenberg & Hammer in NYC, NY. (800) 955-5135 You can buy them by the dozen, by the gross, or the great-gross at most of these places. As always, Tell 'em I sent ya! Regards, - Hilary Oak _ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Feb 1996 10:29:21 -0600 (CST) From: Deb Subject: Re: fittingly sew demo I liked Fittingly Sew very much, as a program. Doing design on the computer is neat (I'm a computer person). Doing design AT ALL however, is not my forte. I decided I was better off using one marked up paper pattern that already fit, and just altering it slightly. So I didn't buy the Fittingly Sew program. And, we've had reports that one CANNOT buy it any longer. The phone numbers have been called, and the company says that it is closed. It would be nice if it would reopen, but .... don't decide NOW that you want to buy it! Deb Baddorf baddorf@fnal.gov ------------------------------ Date: 21 Feb 1996 11:54:35 -0500 From: "Witt Meggan" Subject: RE: Big snaps = Wopper Poppers How big are these snaps? We use some that are approx. 3/4" in diameter. Can you get them bigger than that? _______________________________________________________________________________ To: zorro@netdepot.com Cc: h-costume@lunch.engr.sgi.com From: Hilary_Oak_at_SLU1@ccmaillink.stlawu.edu on Wed,Feb 21,1996 11:10 AM Subject: Big snaps = Wopper Poppers RFC Header:Received: by msmail.muohio.edu with SMTP;21 Feb 1996 11:10:24 - -0500 Received: from sgigate.SGI.COM by rose.muohio.edu (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA89698; Wed, 21 Feb 1996 11:04:30 -0500 Received: from lunch.engr.sgi.com by sgigate.sgi.com via ESMTP (950911.SGI.8.6.12.PATCH825/940406.SGI) id IAA12023; Wed, 21 Feb 1996 08:01:21 -0800 Received: by lunch.engr.sgi.com (951211.SGI.8.6.12.PATCH1042/951211.SGI.AUTO) id HAA09416; Wed, 21 Feb 1996 07:52:08 -0800 Date: Wed, 21 Feb 96 10:50:49 est From: Hilary_Oak_at_SLU1@ccmaillink.stlawu.edu Message-Id: <9601218249.AA824928727@ccmaillink.stlawu.edu> To: zorro@netdepot.com Cc: h-costume@lunch.engr.sgi.com Subject: Big snaps = Wopper Poppers Sender: owner-h-costume@lunch.engr.sgi.com Precedence: bulk Ah yes, They are not period correct, but then neither is the sewing machine for most time frames of fashion! In the theatre biz we call them Wopper Poppers and could no more live without them than (gasp) Velcro! Once again, two of my favorite sources for such things are: Baer Fabrics in Louisville, KY (800) 769-7778 and Richard the Thread in L.A., CA. (800) 473-4997 and there is the good old standby for theatrical notions: Greenberg & Hammer in NYC, NY. (800) 955-5135 You can buy them by the dozen, by the gross, or the great-gross at most of these places. As always, Tell 'em I sent ya! Regards, - Hilary Oak _ ------------------------------ End of H-Costume Digest V4 #40 ****************************** A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to subscribe to that instead, send the command lines: unsubscribe h-costume-digest subscribe h-costume end in the body of a message to majordomo@lunch.engr.sgi.com. Thanks and enjoy the list!