From: owner-h-costume-digest (H-Costume Digest) To: h-costume-digest@lunch.engr.sgi.com Subject: H-Costume Digest V4 #43 Reply-To: h-costume Sender: owner-h-costume-digest@lunch.engr.sgi.com Errors-To: owner-h-costume-digest@lunch.engr.sgi.com Precedence: bulk H-Costume Digest Saturday, February 24 1996 Volume 4, Number 43 Compilation copyright (C) 1995 Diane Barlow Close and Gretchen Miller Use in whole prohibited. Individual articles are the property of the author. Seek permission from that author before reprinting or quoting elsewhere. Important Addresses: Send submissions to: h-costume@lunch.engr.sgi.com (or reply to this message). Adds/drops/archives: majordomo@lunch.engr.sgi.com Real, live person: h-costume-request@andrew.cmu.edu Topics: re:Jane Austen/Pride and Prejudice Re: Jane Austen/Pride and Prejudice tartan - scots Needed: Expert on Eliz. Noblewoman Re: Jane Austen/Pride and Prejudice Re: Jane Austen/Pride and Prejudice Would anyone be interested...(long) BBC Version P&P re: Pride and Prejudice Re: Would anyone be interested...(long) Web Page for a Regency Assembly (and related groups) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 23 Feb 96 18:03:46 PST From: DGC3%Rates%FAR@go50.comp.pge.com Subject: re:Jane Austen/Pride and Prejudice I must agree with Elizabeth Pool's comments: - ------------------------------- < rant on > I don't recall Mr. Darcy getting naked anywhere in the book. NOR did Lydia show her tits to Mr. Collins, NOR did Darcy interrupt Wickham in the middle of Wickham having sex, NOR was there a wet t-shirt scene. I kept waiting for the rocket-powered-motorcycle chase scene finale. Harrumph! < rant off > - ----------------------------------- Changes must be made when transfering a work from one medium to another, but some of these addenda would have had Jane reaching for her vinaigrette. It did make for a very lively production, just a different one from the novel. At least it wasn't the "full frontal Mr Darcy" version that had the Jane Austen Society aghast a few years ago, tho' it must have been intended that way originally (the bath and swimming scenes). Was it perhaps "full frontal" in England and reshot for us prudes in the States? Personally, I thought Mr. Darcy looked as though he was thinking, "I'm not Lawrence Olivier. I will never be Lawrence Olivier" throughout. The dancing was delightful; we [in the San Francisco Bay Area] had done all those numbers before; they are known English country dances. They were very well chosen (the one when Elizabeth dances with Mr. Collins is called "The Bishop", and the grand one for that long exchange between Elizabeth and Darcy is "Miss De Jersey's Memorial"). Their little band was composed of winds and strings, like our Divertimento Dance Orchestra. James Langdell (their director) was ecstatic to see they had an ophiclyde (a serpent-like wind instrument for mega-bass sound that appeared for all of two seconds). They even used sound from the little band before cutting to the symphony orchestra. Paul writes about the costumes: - ---------------------------- As for the costumes, they looked reasonably authentic on screen, but when examined more closely (as I was able to do, when some of the costumes were on display at Lyme Hall, Cheshire, which was used for the exterior views of "Pemberley") certain oddities became apparent. For example, the curry-colored spencer (waist-length jacket) worn by Lizzie in several of the scenes, was made with side-bodies rather than darts; another example was Darcy's overcoat, worn only in the scene where he successfully proposes to Lizzie, wasn't even bound at the edges but was merely (machine!) edge-stitched, with the cut edges being left raw so that they were starting to fray ... - ------------------------------------------- The women's clothing would not be using darts yet; if by "sidebodies" you mean a shaped piece under the arm, that and/or gathering are typical ways of getting flat fabric around a curved bosom at this time. According to Nora Waugh's "Cut of Men's Clothes", the woolens of the time were so compactly woven that a man's coat would not need edge finishing. It sounds like the designer had modern wool but wanted to have a period drape, and "cheated" with the edge-stitching. I do envy Paul the chance to visit the house and see the clothes! And I enjoyed the production anyway despite all the "shocking" alterations. Cross plug for 19th century dancing: if you are in the vicinity of Stanford University, California, USA on Friday evening March 1 or Saturday the 2nd, check out the Stanford Vintage Dance Troupe in Roble Gymnasium ($5) -- 60 costumed dancers doing mid-Victorian dancing with impeccable grace and verve, under the direction of Richard Powers. In case anyone wondered what to do once you are _dressed_ in historic costume. Danine Cozzens dgc3@pge.com ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 24 Feb 1996 09:50:22 -0600 (CST) From: Joe Lichtenstein Subject: Re: Jane Austen/Pride and Prejudice another example was >Darcy's overcoat, worn only in the scene where he successfully proposes to >Lizzie, wasn't even bound at the edges but was merely (machine!) edge-stitched, >with the cut edges being left raw so that they were starting to fray -- I >surmised that, as it was worn for only one scene and then mostly in medium to >long shot, it wasn't considered worthwhile to finish the cloth any better. > > As far as raw edges are concerned, it was a common practice in the 18th century to stitch coats this way. In "Eighteenth-Century Clothing at Williamsburg", p.64, it says "Clothing made of broadcloth was often constructed without turning up hems or finishing all of the fabric edges." But then again, this fabric was so treated as not to fray. "This process resulted in a textile with a beautiful velvety surface, which was also warm and so dense that it would not ravel when cut." So, were they being authentic in their costumes, of just being lazy or short on time??Your guess is as good as mine. Lezlie Olde World Drygoods ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 24 Feb 1996 11:43:24 -0500 From: donhupe@loon.norlink.net (don hupe) Subject: tartan - scots Greetings, we currently found our family tree - Scotland MacEwen, looking for a place / books / etc on such items and how a tartan may have been worn in the middle ages - specically 1553. Any suggestions - please e-mail me directly - I appreciate all help. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 24 Feb 1996 12:43:38 -0500 From: PiranhaBB@aol.com Subject: Needed: Expert on Eliz. Noblewoman I am putting together a web page on costuming an Elizabethan [English] woman for Renaissance fairs (I'm involved with Renaissance Pleasure Faire, Southern [CA]) and would like to have some input on noblewoman's dress. I have a good grasp on peasant and middle class, but some of the nuances of the nobility escape me. The format is this- Her Way of Life: A short (2 paragraph) blurb on her way of life and how she related to her era; Fabrics, Fabric Dont's, Costume Parts (from the skin out), and things to make the costume more realistic. I also will have a bibliography of costuming books, supply resources, and links to other faire pages, and newsgroup FAQs, so if you want your page or source to be included, just send your address or input. Also, if you want to include my page as a link, just let me know... This is not a call for theses or an expert's forum. I want to make this page as friendly as possible, but as accurate as we can be in the 20th century. Please don't send me descriptions for some obscure sub-Italian minor countess in a ... well, you know what I mean. I will give a credit to whoever contributes the bulk of what I use. Let me know how you are involved with costuming: SCA, RPF, theatre, etc. Please answer to me off the list to preserve space. As soon as the page is completed (1 week or so), I'll post the address here. Thank you, Lisa ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 Feb 1996 13:22:09 GMT From: dickie@bozzie.demon.co.uk (Paul C. Dickie) Subject: Re: Jane Austen/Pride and Prejudice In message <9602221521.AA20516@habanero.watson.ibm.com> ejp@watson.ibm.com writes: > Sascha writes: > > BBC/A&E remake of Pride and Prejudice. Has anyone seen it, what do > > you think and what are the chances of laying hands on a copy? > It's available on videocassette from A&E -- try the 1-800 directory > listings. You pay around a hundred bucks for 6 ?45?-minute-long tapes. I suppose that's poetic justice for the over-priced American computer programs and computer books! o-) Over here -- using the PAL video standard and on two, three-hour cassetes -- it costs a mere 20 pounds (approx. $30). Is that the same as the BBC version? The other comments made seem to suggest that it's not. > Mom recorded it for me -- the commercials were sheer hell, so perhaps > I'd hate the tapes less. The costumes were consistently rather good. Apart from one or two oddities, I'd agree... > < rant on > > I don't recall Mr. Darcy getting naked anywhere in the book. Nor do I recall that in the TV version... > NOR did Lydia show her tits to Mr. Collins, Nor that, though I do recall an inserted scene in which she scurried around in her underwear... > NOR did Darcy interrupt Wickham in the middle of Wickham having sex, Nor do I recall having seen that; with whom (or what) was Wickham having sex? > NOR was there a wet t-shirt scene. Nor do I recall that! Are you *sure* we are discussing the same programme? > I kept waiting for the rocket-powered-motorcycle chase scene finale. > Harrumph! So they kept in the scene of Darcy, clad in the black leather and velvet uniform of the Hell-Fire Club, suitably chastising a rope-bound Lydia? o-) > If you want to get a well-costumed AND faithful P&P, get the BBC one > sold by the Signals catalog (definitely in the 1-800 directory) with > Elizabeth Garvie and David Rintoul. Around 30 or 40 bucks for two > ?2.5? hour tapes, of blissfully stellar quality all around. That's the previous version, made some five or ten (?) years ago... < Paul > < ... wondering if the American version of the latest P&P is so *very* different from that shewn in the UK...> ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 24 Feb 1996 18:56:32 -0700 (MST) From: cwood@primenet.com Subject: Re: Jane Austen/Pride and Prejudice >> < rant on > >> I don't recall Mr. Darcy getting naked anywhere in the book. > >Nor do I recall that in the TV version... > >> NOR did Lydia show her tits to Mr. Collins, > >Nor that, though I do recall an inserted scene in which she scurried around >in her underwear... > >> NOR did Darcy interrupt Wickham in the middle of Wickham having sex, > >Nor do I recall having seen that; with whom (or what) was Wickham having sex? > >> NOR was there a wet t-shirt scene. > >Nor do I recall that! > >Are you *sure* we are discussing the same programme? >< Paul > >< ... wondering if the American version of the latest P&P is so *very* >different from that shewn in the UK...> > I am also confused. I saw the program on A&E and I don't recall any of the scenes ranted about above I do recall Lydia in her undies and Mr Darcy jumping fully clothed into the lake (which I thought was actually silly--surely if he had gone swimmng he would have stripped down first), but I don't recall him getting naked or interupting Wickham doing the nasty, though he did open an door to find Wickham carousing with a young lovely on his lap. I must have seen the non-hyperbole version. Ysabeau ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 24 Feb 96 22:40:39 +0500 From: splumb@ic.net Subject: Would anyone be interested...(long) I know someone in Perrysburg, Ohio who owns a unique ribbon shop. She has a computer (although she is not quite comfortable with it yet), and I thought that she might set up a web site to widen her access to the public. The owner is Camela Nitschke, and the shop is called The Ribbonry. A beautiful store! Camela has decorated it with French antiques, and the ribbons! Beautiful French ribbons of every description. Camela frequently travels to France to visit the ribbon manufacturers and bring home new finds. Here's a blurb from the back of one of her videos: "After more than 20 years as a ribbon historian and designer, Camela has become one of the premier ribbon authorities in the world. She has been featured in several publications including Sew News and Victoria Magazine. Camela spends much of her time conducting seminars throughout the US and at her store." She offers classes and videos in the disappearing art of millinery, such as the intricately crafted ribbons that once graced the gowns of the French aristocracy. I'll be there next week for a hat trimming class. If anyone would find a web site such as this interesting, please let me know. I would like to print a few messages of interested parties to show to her. Also, if anyone would like, here is her shop address and phone: The Ribbonry 119 Louisiana Avenue Perrysburg, Ohio 43551 (419) 872-0073 Thanks in advance. Michelle. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 24 Feb 96 22:52 CST From: tallison@mcs.com (Tim Allison) Subject: BBC Version P&P If you live in a large city, you can probably borrow tapes of P&P-and other Jane Austen works-from the library. When I asked members of my Chicago-area Jane Austen group, I was told that some if not all of them were available here. Carol Mitchell ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 24 Feb 1996 23:47:20 -0500 From: webalder@niagara.com (David Webb & Sheridan Alder) Subject: re: Pride and Prejudice Ditto regarding turned edges on men's clothing - I used to work for Parks Canada and have toured their Ottawa collection. It was customary for men's frock coats, great coats and military coatees to have "raw" edges. As other respondents have pointed out, the woolens were so finely woven and well-fulled that "turning" them was not considered necessary. (It did give me a pang when I did gentlemen's coats for my husband and and brother! it seemed almost unnatural!) I objected to the flimsy, drapey quality of some of the men's garments in "Pride and Prejudice". My gut reaction was that the designers were doing it on the cheap, but perhaps I'm in the wrong. Any comments? My main objection to the "wet T-shirt scene" is that Darcy would have been more likely to strip off completely. My understanding is that well into the Victorian period, even on "public" beaches, men swam naked. This was understood, and ladies averted their eyes. (Or perhaps not! as they were inclined!) "Decent" people complained about this in the newspapers. Needless to say, I can't remember the source. Hey, it would have been much more interesting for a modern female audience if Darcy had gone skinny-dipping a la Kevin Costner. This whole sequence was rather unnecessary. I suppose they were trying to capitalize on the "beefcake" qualities of the male lead. Fair enough, but it was rather crass. Of course there were no "sex scenes" in the novel, but, then a many members of a modern audience could possibly have trouble understanding why it was so reprehensible for Lydia to shack up with a fella at such a tender age, or why Wickham was really a rake. Sexual magnetism is great, but it really needs to be linked with deeper, sounder compatibility, for a union to work. It's this universal theme which makes Austen a classic (as well as her wonderful prose style!) Frankly, I've always thought that people make far too much of Jane Austen's "ladylike" qualities. Hey, it was still the Georgian period, for crying out loud. The raunchy Georgian period. There's a great book out dispelling the Austen cult of "gentility". Don't have it to hand, but have the citation around here somewhere. For example, a week or so ago someone was claiming that during this period, people knew how to move "in costume" and didn't stomp on trains, etc. Well, I've been tracking down and reading autobiographies of the period, and guess what! They had the same, everyday accidents we do today. As Art Linklater once wrote, Life's Like That. In "Elizabeth Ham, by Herself" she describes how her sister trod on her train as she entered a ballroom. When she asked another woman for a pin to mend her gown (it had ripped out at the waistline) the woman suggested that she should have turned about and slapped her sister across the face for ripping her gown! (Bet that would have made a great impression on the assembly!) At another dance her partner not only got caught in the lace on her gown, he managed to rip it further helping her into a carriage. Not a good day. On another occassion, she and her brother made the mistake of painting the dining room chairs before a dinner. It rained for a week and the chairsdidn't dry. They were forced to repair the ladies gowns with turpentine. ( I thought things like this just happened to me.)Another time she was out walking with a brother, and managed to rip both side seams of her gown up to the waist while jumping over a stream. About the only misadventure she seems to have managed to avoid was dunking her dress in the toilet. (Don't laugh - this happened to a friend of mine who dropped her maid-of honour's dress in the toilet bowl at the reception.) Actually, I think that this happened to Elizabeth, but she didn't include it in her autobiography for obvious reasons. Loves Jane Austen, but not because she's the essence of gentility, manners and ladyhood Sheridan Alder webalder@niagara.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 25 Feb 1996 00:07:48 -0500 From: deirdre@sover.net (Deirdre) Subject: Re: Would anyone be interested...(long) While my site is related to knitting machines, I have a list that I intend to post links to other needlecraft sites. There is a resurgence of interest in millinery, not to mention some of the finer use of ribbons. While I'm not much the fancy ribbon type, even I (the anti-embellishment queen) find a need for it now and then. My wedding gown, for example. Pardon me while I digress! I had wanted something light airy and ME. This let out most commercial laces. All the interesting ones were over $100 a yard and in white or ivory only. Or maybe black. Definitely not my color and not something I wanted to fuss with. Then I got a knitting machine. Out of the box it makes lace. Anything that gets over about 4000 yards per pound (approx. 800 meters per 100g) is a laceweight yarn. I discovered that a LOT of coned yarn is sold this fine since many of them are used as blending yarns rather than alone. And so I found one that's a silk/wool blend and comes in the colors I wanted in an appropriate weight. So it was relatively easy to design a lace pattern I wanted and voila! Lace. Not that it's simple. You do two passes with the carriage, unhook the yarn, transfer for an even number of rows (2-8 pretty typically), then another two with the carriage. Beats the heck out of 0000 needles though. So my wedding gown won't be as historic as I'd originally thought it might be. But it'll be "me!" I was looking for ribbons though. ;D At 10:40 PM 2/24/96, splumb@ic.net wrote: >She offers classes and videos in the disappearing art of millinery, >such as the intricately crafted ribbons that once graced the gowns of the >French aristocracy. I'll be there next week for a hat trimming class. _Deirdre http://www.sover.net/~deirdre The net can't be controlled, but they can sure mess it up trying. It will be like hemp: the yarn and the paper are gone, but the nasty uses linger on. - -- Joy Beeson (jbeeson@globalone.net) from a post to the knit list on 2/17/96 ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 24 Feb 1996 19:10:30 PST From: meier@ssrl01.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Web Page for a Regency Assembly (and related groups) Those of you interested in the English Regency period may have noticed that the annual Friends of the English Regency Assembly hasn't been on for a year or two. Well, it's returned, albeit at the very last minute. (Please don't shoot the messenger for the lack of notice; I found out about this only two weeks ago myself.) The program looks quite interesting -- note the workshop by the costume and fashion historian -- and the price is actually very good. It's in Buena Park in southern California on the weekend of March 8-10. I've attached most of the particulars below. Please feel free to circulate this information anywhere that seems appropriate. You can also find this information and more at the Bay Area English Regency Society web site, which is now up in embryonic form at: ftp://ftp.netcom.com/pub/ra/randolph/assembly.html (Hey, so we don't have our own domain name yet...go complain to the Prince Regent ;) ) I'd love to hear about any links to appropriate material on the Web. We'll be doing more with this page in the future, though right now it's mostly a brochure for the Assembly. Vanessa Schnatmeier The 18th Annual Friends of the English Regency Assembly March 8-10, 1996 Treasurer for the Assembly is Sue Haseltine--please make your check for $125 payable to her, and send it to 1720 S. Granville Ave., No. 9, Los Angeles, CA 90025, BY MARCH 1ST. If you cannot stay in the hotel, your rate is $75, or for either day alone $45; if you cannot attend, Supporting Subscriptions are $15. For more information, latest program confirmations, and what not, please telephone J. Hertz at (213) 384-6622. =============================================================================== Vanessa Schnatmeier MEIER@SSRL750.BITNET or MEIER@SSRL01.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Disclaimer: I speak only for myself, not SLAC or SSRL =============================================================================== ------------------------------ End of H-Costume Digest V4 #43 ****************************** A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to subscribe to that instead, send the command lines: unsubscribe h-costume-digest subscribe h-costume end in the body of a message to majordomo@lunch.engr.sgi.com. Thanks and enjoy the list!