From: owner-h-costume-digest (H-Costume Digest) To: h-costume-digest@lunch.engr.sgi.com Subject: H-Costume Digest V4 #44 Reply-To: h-costume Sender: owner-h-costume-digest@lunch.engr.sgi.com Errors-To: owner-h-costume-digest@lunch.engr.sgi.com Precedence: bulk H-Costume Digest Monday, February 26 1996 Volume 4, Number 44 Compilation copyright (C) 1995 Diane Barlow Close and Gretchen Miller Use in whole prohibited. Individual articles are the property of the author. Seek permission from that author before reprinting or quoting elsewhere. Important Addresses: Send submissions to: h-costume@lunch.engr.sgi.com (or reply to this message). Adds/drops/archives: majordomo@lunch.engr.sgi.com Real, live person: h-costume-request@andrew.cmu.edu Topics: Re: duct tape and dress forms Wet T-shirt scene in P&P Anne Boleyn movie Arabian Nights RE: Anne Boleyn movie Jean D' Are & Koehler Re: Anne Boleyn movie Welsh Butter and other problems Coat hem finishings Coat finishing/fulling Re: Arabian Nights Battle of N.O. & U.S. Civil War Re: H-Costume Digest V4 #42 Weddings Re: Mongols Vintage Dance Classes in San Francisco Area Dancing in Pride and Prejudice ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 16 Feb 1996 17:57:26 -0600 From: "Mike O'Toole" Subject: Re: duct tape and dress forms > > For tose of you who have made a dress form using the duct-tape or paper > mace methods and filled them with the expanding foam, how much foam did > it take? And how does the foam hold up to pinning? This sounds like a great way to make an armour stand! - --------------------------------------------------------- Mike O'Toole @ Regina, SK Canada @ motoole@ucomnet.unibase.com @ Listen to Realtime on CBC Stereo Saturday evenings 7-12 ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 25 Feb 96 11:42 PST From: iteach@slip.net (Elizabeth Pruyn) Subject: Wet T-shirt scene in P&P Hi there. My main objection to the "wet T-shirt scene" is that Darcy would have been more likely to strip off completely. My understanding is that well into the Victorian period, even on "public" beaches, men swam naked. This was understood, and ladies averted their eyes. (Or perhaps not! as they were inclined!) Or think of the scene in "Room with a View" where the three men (including the Rev. Mr. Bebee) going swimming down at the local pond...all three were in the buff when the ladies and Cecil come strolling along. It's wonderful. Yours, Elizabeth Elizabeth Pruyn iteach@slip.net Oakland, CA "If I had been around when Rubens was painting, I would have been revered as a fabulous model. Kate Moss? Well, she would have been the paint brush..." - Dawn French ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 25 Feb 1996 16:44:07 -0800 From: kondoa@ucs.orst.edu Subject: Anne Boleyn movie Disney Channel re-ran "Anne of the 1000 Days" last week & I was curoius about some of the costumes. This was an older movie, done sometime in the late 1960's or ealry 1970's, with Richard Burton as Henry & Geniveive Bujold as Anne. I'm not up on all of the fine point of Tudor costume & wondered how accurate the movie was. The main "glitch" I spotted was a lot of Annes French hoods looking like thin, jewelled headbands over long, loose hair. (I'm not sure if the loose hair was to make her look "sexier" to modern audiences, or to indicate she was unmarried. I don't think it was unmarried, since she was also wearing full head coverings in other early scenes.). I also thought some of the women's sleeves hung rather awkwardly.... Any comments? Alison PS. I still think the most amusing costume I ever saw in a Henry 8 movie was from a 1930's version which showed Katherine Howard slinking about the palace at night clad in a clinging, bias cut satin "nightie". Very period for the 1930's at least, if not the 1500's. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 25 Feb 1996 21:04:59 -0600 From: "William B. Birner" Subject: Arabian Nights I am cross posting this to Historic and Fantasy Costume Lists: I just finished another successful Mardi Gras Ball and Parade. I designed the costuming for a Musketeers type theme as the carnival Krewe cekebrated its French heritage. I want to again thank those of both these lists who assisted me with sources of Rapiers and someother suggestions. Our participants were delighted with the basket hilt rapiers we purchased for them and I am now the proud owner of a fine Toledo rapier with a silver plated cup hilt embossed with gold plated musketeer scenes, etc. It is awesome and I will now be building a cherry mounting board for display. I was costumed in relatively accurate garb as the captain of the musketters who served Louis XIII. Accurate that is except for the fabric and decoration. Historians who don't understand New Orleand area Mardi Gras would not approve. My cape was a crystal studded black velvet lined with a silver lame type brocade. remainder of outfit decorated with sequins, etc. My chapeau with huge white plumes was/is tres elegante. Now I am starting next years opus. Our theme will be centered upon the Arabian Nights and tales of Scheherezade. I need some help. We will be vaguely retelling tales of Ali Baba, Sinbad, Aladdin, and the other assorted tales from the Thousand and One nights. I come from an academic theatrical designer/costumer background. These days it is my avocation but I design each year about 20 plus costumes and staging and all graphics for our organization. We "play to" about a thousand folks at a formal ball which follows our pageant. Budget is healthy. My usual approach to fantasy mardi gras is to start with historical accuracy as a unifying jumping off point and then abstract and glitz from there to fit the style of N'Awlins and our own idiosynchrocy. I have no decent background in middle eastern garb and styles nor any material readily available. I am looking for 1. Anything on the internet which might give me pointers. 2. A bibliography of both middle eastern costuming through the ages and pictorial material. I need to know both how it looked and how it was made. I have no idea how some of this stuff was draped or how turbans, for example were wrapped. Anything in any media which will help me needs to be found as soon as possible. What does it really look like and how is it made. 3. I doubt that local libraries including universities will have much so sources for purchase are best. I have been away from that scene long enough that faculty privileges are no longer available. I may be able to find a coleague who can get me interlibrary loan but that is unsure at this point. (ISBN info would be dandy.) 4. I have a decent but not great "European" collection but except for a rare peek at generic "arabic" there is nothing in this stuff. 5. Commercial Sources of specialized fabrics, patterns, other materials would also be helpful. I have plenty of imagination and rendering talent but alas only a bastardized Hollywoodized idea of the nysterious middle east. We do not have much of a "Persian" population around here so I have n one to talk to. All assistance will be greatfully lauded and stroked. Ciao. Bill Ciao, Bill - ------------- wbbirner@ix.netcom.com (William B. Birner) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Feb 96 14:11:00 EST From: "Hicks, Melissa" Subject: RE: Anne Boleyn movie I saw a black and white movie about Lady Jane Grey made around the same time period (1920s-1930s). The heroine (Jane) wore for most of the movie a cute little bonnet (like a coif) in black with a small headband over the top of it and cute little curls escaping from the sides and framing the face. Appeared to be very 1920s or so, definately NOT 1540s. Melissa. mah@amsa.gov.au >PS. I still think the most amusing costume I ever saw in >a Henry 8 movie was from a 1930's version which showed >Katherine Howard slinking about the palace at night clad >in a clinging, bias cut satin "nightie". Very period for >the 1930's at least, if not the 1500's. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Feb 96 08:53:00 CET From: Van Opstal Walter Subject: Jean D' Are & Koehler Hello, I am trying to track down two pattern books that should contain information on medieval costume. I only got these titles. Has anyone got more info on authors, publishers, etc.. (1) Jean D' Are (2) Koehler It would make things easier when contacting a second hand bookshop. Thanks heaps. Walter. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Feb 1996 07:25:08 -0600 (CST) From: "Rachel E. Mast" Subject: Re: Anne Boleyn movie On Sun, 25 Feb 1996 kondoa@ucs.orst.edu wrote: > > Disney Channel re-ran "Anne of the 1000 Days" last > week & I was curoius about some of the costumes. This was > an older movie, done sometime in the late 1960's or ealry > 1970's, with Richard Burton as Henry & Geniveive Bujold as > Anne. I'm not up on all of the fine point of Tudor costume > & wondered how accurate the movie was. The main "glitch" > I spotted was a lot of Annes French hoods looking like > thin, jewelled headbands over long, loose hair. (I'm not > sure if the loose hair was to make her look "sexier" to > modern audiences, or to indicate she was unmarried. I don't > think it was unmarried, since she was also wearing full > head coverings in other early scenes.). I also thought > some of the women's sleeves hung rather awkwardly.... > Any comments? > > Alison > > PS. I still think the most amusing costume I ever saw in > a Henry 8 movie was from a 1930's version which showed > Katherine Howard slinking about the palace at night clad > in a clinging, bias cut satin "nightie". Very period for > the 1930's at least, if not the 1500's. > > I think that most of the clothing was period, although I'm not sure on the hair thing. Maybe the outfit or the situation, like court or just running around. She was wearing a hair covering when she was Lady-in-waiting to the queen so like I said it might just be the situation. I've seen this movie at least 10 times so it's on ove my favorites. Rachel Mast rmast@risc.usi.edu Sasha of Ridgeton ------------------------------ Date: 26 Feb 96 16:26:00 GMT From: Mrs C S Yeldham Subject: Welsh Butter and other problems To answer the query, to the best of my knowledge, Welsh butter just means butter from Wales. It produced a lot which was exported to the rest of Britain - all that rain. I would expect it to be quite a strong yellow, and probably saltier than usual - to allow transport of the perishable product. I was the person who said that I thought period people were less likely to stand on trains etc than modern people - and I stand by it. If you are used to people wearing long clothes, then you will be trained from childhood to take care. This does not rule out accidents - Trollope has a famous one in the Barchester Chronicles, when the couch one of the Stanhope daughters is lying on (the one who married an Italian and 'has no legs'!) is moved and catches Mrs Proudie's gown, tearing it. Mind you, the source you quote 'Elizabethan Ham'?? sounds very careless - what date was that? Surely it can't be Elizabethan, using turpentine? (I can't find the email - too much traffic!) On the Medieval course I mentioned recently, I shan't be attending it (there's this millinery course in Manchester and I'm running out of holidays). Perhaps you could write to them and ask if they are publishing proceedings? Caroline ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Feb 1996 11:31:01 -0800 From: gwjchris@ix.netcom.com (Bill and Glenna Christen ) Subject: Coat hem finishings You wrote: >As far as raw edges are concerned, it was a common practice in the >18th century to stitch coats this way...But then again, this fabric >was so treated as not to fray. This practice continued into the 19th Century, at least for military greatcoats used during the American Civil War. Unfortunately the quality of woolen goods commonly available today don't come close to the density, etc. of earlier fabrics that prevents fraying. Glenna Jo Christen LHS, LSFS, MSAS & HSP gwjchris@ix.netcom.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Feb 1996 12:00:57 -0800 From: kondoa@ucs.orst.edu Subject: Coat finishing/fulling Could a denser modern wool be acheived by fulling? A friend of mine throws her wools in the bathtub or washer to produce a denser, softer fabric. I don't know if the finish would be smooth enough for mens coats later though, does anyone know if period wools might have been shaved or smoothed after fulling? Alison ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Feb 1996 13:56:55 -0600 (CST) From: Joe Lichtenstein Subject: Re: Arabian Nights At 09:04 PM 2/25/96 -0600, you wrote: > > >I have no decent background in middle eastern garb and styles nor any >material readily available. > >I am looking for >1. Anything on the internet which might give me pointers. >2. A bibliography of both middle eastern costuming through the ages and >pictorial material. I need to know both how it looked and how it was made. I >have no idea how some of this stuff was draped Bill, I just subscribed to a new magazine called "Recreating History". The Feb/Mar 1996 issue #4, has an article on traditional Middle Eastern costume that may be of help to you. You can get a copy for $3.95+$1.00(S&H) from Recreating History P.O.Box 4277 Santa Clara, CA 95056 Lezlie Olde World Drygoods ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Feb 96 17:27 CST From: tiger1@accesscom.net (John Lambert) Subject: Battle of N.O. & U.S. Civil War Battle of N.O. & U.S. Civil War We are still in search of patterns and/or clothing and accessories plus religious items for the living history impressions of a Louisiana Roman Catholic Priest during the Battle of New Orleans era plus a Louisiana priest in the U.S. Civil War era. I am also assisting the person researching a companion Louisiana-based Roman Catholic Nun for the same eras. Anything which would support or help with this project would be appreciated. Thanks, John Lambert tiger1@accesscom.net ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Feb 1996 16:56:39 -0800 From: Susan Fatemi Subject: Re: H-Costume Digest V4 #42 thanks to everyone who tried to help with the hakame. a friend is sending me her copy of the folkwear pattern and I have taken the silk one completely apart to see how it is made. the koshita appears to be more ornamental than functional, so I am not going to drive myself crazy worrying about authenticity of construction. Susan Fatemi susanf@eerc.berkeley.edu ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Feb 1996 19:56:12 -0500 From: Jen Keener Subject: Weddings I was wondering if anyone can help me with wedding costumes. I am haveing a renaissance themed wedding at the ocal renaissance faire and am looking for ideas on what to wear, accessories, etc.. i've looked around on the web and found 1 main site & 2 pictures. If anyone has any more leads, internet or otherwise, please let me know. All help is greatly appreciated. (if it matters, I'm near Harrisburg, PA. Thanks Jen ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Feb 1996 23:45:50 -0500 From: BBrisbane@aol.com Subject: Re: Mongols Mongolian Clothes from 1000 - 1500 are difficult to document - you have to page through huge volumes of chineese and persian folios to find what you are interested in. I glimsped one in a recent book that supports a recent TV series on the Mongols - it is one of Chingis' successor's court scene, some of the 4 corner tippets are seen (many of these in Hansen's 'Mongol Costume') but the cut of the coat is different from modern 'traditional' clothes in that it slopes straight from the neck to the underarm, no collars. Another source is 'Eighteen Songs of a Nomad Flute' from the Metropolitan Museum of Art. (it is slightly earlier than the period you requested) There you see the same cut to the neckline, more women are represented, and their clothes look very similar to later korean clothes and they wear a tall black fez type hat. Let me know if you need some photo copies for comparisons - I don't have web capabilities ----- Brenda ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Feb 1996 20:48:32 -0800 (PST) From: Allan Terry Subject: Vintage Dance Classes in San Francisco Area VINTAGE DANCE CLASSES The East Bay Vintage Dance Society schedule for March through May is: March 2: Maxixe variations taught by Allan Terry & Fran Grimble March 9: NO CLASS--HALL UNAVAILABLE March 16: Ragtime dance taught by Stan Isaacs March 23: Ragtime dance taught by Stan Isaacs March 30: Hesitation waltzes and Bostons taught by Terry & Grimble April 6: 5/4 (half-and-half) waltzes taught by Terry & Grimble April 13: 1910s and 1920s blues taught by Terry & Grimble April 20: NO CLASS--HALL UNAVAILABLE April 27: Ragtime or 1920s dance taught by Stan Isaacs May 4: 1920s dance May 11: 1920s dance May 18: 1920s dance May 25: 1920s dance All dance variations are researched from original sources, some especially for this class. We do our best to always teach fresh and interesting material, and to teach good styling. All classes will be held on Saturday mornings, 10:30 a.m. to 12:30 p.m. at St. Johns Presbyterian Church 2727 College Avenue, Room 203 Berkeley, California The price is $6/person. No partner required. This is a regular series of weekly classes that will continue in upcoming months. For further information, call Clare Burmeister at 510/524-9111 or send e-mail to clareb@consensus.com or aterry@teknowledge.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Feb 1996 21:19:22 -0800 (PST) From: Allan Terry Subject: Dancing in Pride and Prejudice We don't watch television. But my mother-in-law taped _Pride and Prejudice_ for us, commercials and all. The dancing was better than in many period films in that the actors managed to walk through the set dances competently (better than in the _Persuasion_ film, where the dancers are clumsy and much too boisterous). However, till the end of the 1840s people did fancy steps to set dances; they didn't walk. The steps were mostly a traveling step very much like a polka forward, with a variety of fancy setting step sequences. The setting steps were where dancers showed their virtuosity and everyone was expected to have a decent repertoire. The manuals indicate that during the 1850s and even the 1860s some dancers continued to do the steps (and some walked; but by this time there were set dances that incorporated the waltz, polka, and other round dances). We gave away the _Pride and Prejudice_ tape, so I can't re-view it. But my memory is that the first dance actually showed the traveling step, though no setting steps. The actors walked through the rest of the dances. I'm not criticizing Danine for not knowing about the Regency steps, considering I've seen her do them. Women wore trained skirts for dancing and pinned them up. In _Northanger Abbey_, Catherine and her friend Isabel pinned up each others' trains for the dance. It was a low-quality tape so I may be mistaken but: Were Jane and Elizabeth wearing _nylon veils_ in the double wedding scene? I agree with Sheridan, that during the Regency people must have had their trains stepped on and suffered other clothing mishaps. Most people in any period know how to manage their clothes but accidents happen anyway. Surely everyone on this list has at some point stained, torn, or otherwise damaged their modern clothing, or had the fasteners give, or whatever. Or had their clothing damaged by someone else. Fran Grimble ------------------------------ End of H-Costume Digest V4 #44 ****************************** A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to subscribe to that instead, send the command lines: unsubscribe h-costume-digest subscribe h-costume end in the body of a message to majordomo@lunch.engr.sgi.com. Thanks and enjoy the list!