From: owner-h-costume-digest (H-Costume Digest) To: h-costume-digest@lunch.engr.sgi.com Subject: H-Costume Digest V4 #47 Reply-To: h-costume Sender: owner-h-costume-digest@lunch.engr.sgi.com Errors-To: owner-h-costume-digest@lunch.engr.sgi.com Precedence: bulk H-Costume Digest Wednesday, February 28 1996 Volume 4, Number 47 Compilation copyright (C) 1995 Diane Barlow Close and Gretchen Miller Use in whole prohibited. Individual articles are the property of the author. Seek permission from that author before reprinting or quoting elsewhere. Important Addresses: Send submissions to: h-costume@lunch.engr.sgi.com (or reply to this message). Adds/drops/archives: majordomo@lunch.engr.sgi.com Real, live person: h-costume-request@andrew.cmu.edu Topics: Alba from Castel S. Elia 14th Century Silks Linen garments c. 1500-1700 klutz in costume - was P & P - long re: Women's Work ISBN Looking for Lost Wardrobe of Queen Elizabeth.... 1639-1640 source for women Re: Looking for Lost Wardrobe of Queen Elizabeth.... Re: 14th Century Silks Greetings ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 28 Feb 96 14:27 CST From: ROBERT@UIAMVS.WEEG.UIOWA.EDU Subject: Alba from Castel S. Elia Hald's book on Ancient Danish Textiles has a drawing of an alba (ecclesiastical garment) from Castel Sant'Elia, Italy. The only citation for it is a German book that our library does not have (and since I don't read German, I don't want to ILL it). The cited book in by Joseph Braun, Die liturgische gewandung im Occident und Orient nach ursprung und entwicklung, verwendung und symbolik. Freiburg im Breigau, Herde, 1907, p.75, figure 28. I am interested in the specifics of this garment's construction - type of cloth, weave structure, original fabric width (if known), layout, etc. I am not finding any information on it - not reading either German or Italian is not helping. If anyone could send me a relevant citation, or send me information about the tunic, I would appreciate it. Thank you. ****************************** Wendy Robertson Serials Cataloging University of Iowa (319) 335-5894 wendy-robertson@uiowa.edu ****************************** ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 28 Feb 1996 15:29:32 -0500 From: COakley@aol.com Subject: 14th Century Silks Hello, everyone. I've been enjoying the Regency comments. Though it's not "my period", I like the look of the clothes and think Jane Austen is a wit. My husband disagrees on both counts. Since he wears cotehardie and tights, I am not sure I understand his objection to frock coats. Anyway... To return to the subject, this seems to be the week for off the wall questions, so here are mine. Our period is the latter half of the 14th century. I have graduated from "let's just get clothes on our bodies" to "let's try to spiff up our wardrobe" and I'm looking for sources of "period-looking" fabrics and design tips. Latest source I'm looking at is Thai Silks (Los Altos, CA), and I'm trying to figure out which of their offerings would best replicate the look of period silks and linens. (Here in Peoria I have trouble getting WOOL, much less real LINEN, and those few linens I have found cost more than Thai's silk noil and silk/linen.) 1. The books I'm using and SCA fabric guidelines suggest bridal satin is better than most other satins because it is heavier and has a softer sheen. Would a twill-backed charmeuse work also? 2. Is silk noil an acceptable alternative for dress-weight linen? Thanks in advance for the help. Val WInkler (SCA: Kate Oakley) COakley@aol.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 28 Feb 1996 13:51:13 -0800 (PST) From: Margaret Griffith Subject: Linen garments c. 1500-1700 I am trying to find some documentation that actual outer garments (e.g. gowns, skirts, etc.) might have been made of linen rather than wool/silk. Does anyone have any idea how to go about looking for such information? The closest that I have found thus far is a mention that linen was sometimes used as the base thread that gold was then wrapped around to make cloth of gold. Any help would be appreciated. Thanks. Meg Penrose peggieg@u.washington.edu ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 28 Feb 1996 17:01:36 -0500 From: webalder@niagara.com (David Webb & Sheridan Alder) Subject: klutz in costume - was P & P - long Here's more complete information on the two sources I mentioned: Sales, Roger. Jane Austen and representations of Regency England. London : New York : Routledge, 1994. Roger would have waxed much more sarcastic if he has waited two years to write his book, after this Austen mania. (I love this Austen mania, really.) Elizabeth Ham, 1783-1820, introduced and edited by Eric Gillet. London : Faber & Faber [1945]. This is held by the University of Toronto's Robarts Library, and like most autobiographies, is chock full of interesting trivia. Another fun, period source of super snippets is: Beresford, James. The Miseries of human life: or, the groans of Samuel Sensitve and Timothy Testy, with a few supplementary sighs from Mrs. Testy. 4th ed. London, Printed for William Miller, by W. Bulmer, 1806-1807. This is the early 19th century version of the old Saturday Night Live skit "Don't you just hate that?" It's an amusing litany of just about everything that could possibly go wrong in daily life of the period. If any of you have "Mrs. Hurst Dancing & Other Scenes from Regency Life 1812-1823" - well Diana Sperling lifted "miseries of human life" from Beresford. You could even purchase "Miseries of Human Life" wallpaper borders! One of the miseries was to "force leg & foot through the muslin drapery of your fair partner" in a country dance. Another was to break a button in dressing and have the wire stab your finger (obviously a Dorset button - have any of you keeners out there tried making a Dorset button? - inquiring minds want to know). Yet another was to find that your last "clean" shirt bore "reeking evidence of rank soap or lie" and that the strings of your drawers have broken. On the distaff side, one of the miseries of human life was running a needle under your fingernail (Wince), or (the agony!) forgetting a piece of tambour-work three years in the completion in a hackney-coach. "Miseries" also includes a tongue-in-cheek "Key to Female Perfection". The author recommends "Contrive to stumble frequently in walking: it may give rise to an elegant disorder, and recovery, besides exhibiting a proof of your weakness... a degree of mental weakness very happily harmonizing with that of the body already inculcated. "I would not offend your by more than a hint at the crying necessity of being all but stark blind... With respect to your general carriage and attitude, adopt a well considered lounge......lisp." Gee, I think I went to high school with these people! One of the "Miseries" which surprised me the most was having a drunken sailor "eject his reserve of tobacco against the lady's drapery" while out strolling. Not exactly "Bless the squire and his relations, and keep us in our proper stations" is it? The author of the 1811 "Mirror of the Graces" complains about the awkwardness of Englishwomen, and recommends that they remedy this by imitating the poses of classical art. She describes how she once saw a militiaman present arms in ridicule to a lady who marched when she walked. She also complains that ladies frequently exhibit too much bosom and leg especially while dancing the "bullero" and fandango before company. To be far, La Belle Assemblee reviewed the book, and indignantly denied that British ladies were anything but ever modest and graceful. On the other hand, I've scanned La Belle Assemblee on microfilm from 1806-1814, (microfilm - the horror, the horror!) and the fashion commentator (gently) rebukes ladies low necklines. Speaking of trains, I have a copy of the 1803 "Ladies Magazine" which claims that ladies with good bosoms prefer trains, while ladies with nice legs, but less amply endowed elsewhere, prefer trainless dress. This implies that if you covered up your legs, it was more acceptable to lower your neckline, while if you wore a high neckline, you could shorten your hemline a little. Susan Sibbald describes how, as a young girl, she had a gown made with a train in imitation of her older sister, practised sweeping it and avoiding catching it in the door. However, on first wearing it in company, a family friend made fun of her and called her a "tragedy queen" in a lisp. She then admitts that it wasn't appropriate for her age. So the wearing of trains was perilous in several ways. I guess I prefer a rolicking Rowlandson view of society and manners (or lack of them) to any graceful but static Henry Moses engraving, although both co-existed to some degree. As an alternative to "Cleopatra's Nose" view of history, perhaps I should write a "Banana-skin" view of history. Sheridan Alder webalder@niagara.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 28 Feb 1996 17:09:38 -0500 From: mhamilto@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (Marsha Hamilton) Subject: re: Women's Work ISBN ISBN is 0393035069 >| Barber, Elizabeth Wayland. >| Women's Work-the first 20,000 years: >| women, cloth, and society >| in early times. New York: Norton, 1994. >Could you send me the ISBN for this one? ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 28 Feb 96 17:31:04 EST From: CS23001@MAINE.maine.edu (Lisa A. Tyson) Subject: Looking for Lost Wardrobe of Queen Elizabeth.... For Penny Ladnier, Please forgive my inaccuracies of quoting your original post. I am currently working on temp space and from memory of the recent request you posted to this discussion group. Your request to seek information regarding Queen Elizabeth's wardrobe (like she'd have actually ever missed anything.. what a clothes horse!) seemed vaguely familiar to me as well. I would recommend you check the sources on the Elizabethan corsetry website http://www.law.indiana.edu/~aleed/corsets and look under her books reference section. Therein lies a brief notation for a book by Janet Arnold called "Lost From Her Majesties Back", Pub. Costume Society 1980. I have never seen this citation, I have no idea if this is the book you are searching for, but it sounds like it may be promising. As for getting hold of it, well.... you may wish to do a library search. Please post the ISDN number if you are successful in its location. I'm sure many of us would be curious. I wish you the best of luck. - -- Lisa Tyson ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 28 Feb 1996 17:40:32 -0500 From: webalder@niagara.com (David Webb & Sheridan Alder) Subject: 1639-1640 source for women Greetings: This isn't my time period, but last time I visited the Thomas Fisher Rare Book Library, University of Toronto there were prints from: Ornatus muliebbis anglicanu / Several habits of English women. 1639-1640 on display in the reading room. I scrawled something down about there being 26 prints representing the English seasons. Just thought someone out there might be iinterested. Sheridan webalder@niagara.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 28 Feb 1996 16:17:21 -0800 (PST) From: "B. O'Brien" Subject: Re: Looking for Lost Wardrobe of Queen Elizabeth.... I have this book at home. I will publish the information about it tomorrow, unless someone else does sooner. It's pretty cool. Peggy Sue Hi, P.A. On Wed, 28 Feb 1996, Lisa A. Tyson wrote: > For Penny Ladnier, > > Please forgive my inaccuracies of quoting your original post. > I am currently working on temp space and from memory of the > recent request you posted to this discussion group. > > Your request to seek information regarding Queen Elizabeth's > wardrobe (like she'd have actually ever missed anything.. what > a clothes horse!) seemed vaguely familiar to me as well. > > I would recommend you check the sources on the Elizabethan > corsetry website http://www.law.indiana.edu/~aleed/corsets > and look under her books reference section. Therein lies a > brief notation for a book by Janet Arnold called "Lost From Her > Majesties Back", Pub. Costume Society 1980. > > I have never seen this citation, I have no idea if this is > the book you are searching for, but it sounds like it may > be promising. As for getting hold of it, well.... you may wish > to do a library search. Please post the ISDN number if you > are successful in its location. I'm sure many of us would be curious. > > I wish you the best of luck. > > -- Lisa Tyson > ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 28 Feb 1996 16:33:41 -0600 (CST) From: Teresa Shannon Subject: Re: 14th Century Silks First a diatribe not necessarily aimed at you, then helpful comments. There are those of us on the list that pay particular attention to specific subjects. These are subjects we are simultaneously researching, have built some experience and familiarity with, or have identical questions about. The discussion on Regency outfits is a good example, so are perennial discussions on corsetry, elizabethan costuming, victorian ballgowns, revolutionary war costuming etc. There are people on this list who have great stores of knowledge or practical experience and can make a novice's job easier because of it. Such a subject with me is anthing fourteenth century english, especially silk and wool. My entire library acquisition for the last several years is on the fourteenth century and critical event before and after it from history, to economics, literature, psychology, religion, art and costume. Additionally my experience with the largest silk exporter in the country and my own research in articles on period fabrics have yielded some small dividends. Because of this I feel OBLIGATED to respond to a question like this. (I know I don't have to, but if misinformation is stated, and possibilities for error immanent-I feel I must leap in. I do not want silk, the fourteenth century, or research maligned and misrepresented leaving people with bitter or incorrect opinions of real research.) The whole point of this is to complain, a little about the repetition of information. This information is not easy to obtain. It is contained on hundreds of pages of many books, article, files, and journals at my home and it take lots of time to bring it together and present it. I am sure those who do provide multiple or older citations with their advice feel the same way. Once, twice, but every month requests for the same information (by different or new people)? I might miss something I put in before! Is there anyway for a newsgroup like this to have a FAQ posted once a week or so stating how to get the archives, to check the archives first especially for XXXX subjects? I have thought as a subscriber this would continue to be useful to me. So, I ask Diane and any other list server, is this possible? If not, I'll plod through. And now back to our regular programming: Please forgive the fact that I have none of my sources at work with me. Information on wools, velvets, samite and satin and other silks from the middle ages have been discussed in detail before and it might be valuable for you to cruise the archives. I shall doubtless give you insufficient information. My apologies. > > Our period is the latter half of the 14th century. I have graduated > from "let's just get clothes on our bodies" to "let's try to spiff up our > wardrobe" and I'm looking for sources of "period-looking" fabrics and design > tips. Latest source I'm looking at is Thai Silks (Los Altos, CA), and I'm > trying to figure out which of their offerings would best replicate the look > of period silks and linens. (Here in Peoria I have trouble getting WOOL, > much less real LINEN, and those few linens I have found cost more than Thai's > silk noil and silk/linen.) First, Thai Silks is great. These are the fabrics they carried when last I worked there that might be appropriate (read passable or fakeable) medieval substitutes: Thai silk-shot and monochromatic 1-ply (if only they had 3 or 4 ply). Indian dupioni shot for linings only, although their white is smooth enough for a middle class or low level aristos outfits. Silk Taffeta-to die for, excellent and a thoroughly underused fabric for medieval reenactors it was VERY popular in period. Chinese dupioni-a smoother than linen, linen-looking weave. Fantastic drape, almost too good. For those who stray over to the fifteenth century, Matelasse, which is really cloque, but what the hey its all fake. silk broadcloth, didn't come dyed when I was there, but you can dye it yourself, and the feel, drape and look is out of this world. peau de soie-REAL silk satin, I have never seen ANY synthetic (including rayon) which comes close. They built their tents out of this stuff, used it for bed clothes, and chausables, and eventually clothing in England in the fourteenth century, also as lining. You could get away with the silk velvet. The pile is 100% silk, but the backing is rayon, which means don't sweat on it and don't get it wet. The pile isn't thick enough either, but it drapes, cleans, and has color and shine better than any of the synthetics. 2 blends: Silk/wool forget the houndstooth but some of the others are nice and strong and springy. It unravels easily so be careful. Drape is beautiful and it wears oh so well. Silk/linen limited colors but this is the best of both worlds. Even though Leviticus says no, sumptuary law and guilds permitted mixed grounds, especially linen so I say go for it. Washes up so beautifully, not as wrinkly as silk, does shrink though. Some jacquards are good, but I wouldn't buy them sight unseen. The chiffons, especially the heavier ones, gauzes, pongees, phoenix's are all good for chemises, and veils. China silk is usually just not strong enough, but if you are lining something not next to the skin which doesn't have to be very tight, than it is a close to period lining, comes in tons of colors. Thats all I can remember on that point, stay away from charmeuse, shantung, crepes, tussah, prints, habotai. More on noil below. For wools and linens, there are some suggestions that others have made on the list here from Ohio to Los Angeles' Oriental silks (they have linen too) and they are in the archives. > 1. The books I'm using and SCA fabric guidelines suggest bridal satin is > better than most other satins because it is heavier and has a softer sheen. > Would a twill-backed charmeuse work also? ACCCCCKKKK. Satin, which should probably be used sparingly anyway, use more on the man and less on the woman for the later third of the century and mostly for linings, should be the real thing. For one reason, silk satin is not slippery like the synthetics and is easy to sew with. It also has BODY. I have never seen silk with more BODY than peau de soie! Don't worry about "softer sheen" this is silk! Silk was prized for the brilliant colors. Softer colors were produced in Florence (and not France, Venice, Palermo, Genoa, or Spain) popularly in that period. Florence basically did it in the fifteenth century with lampas silks and brocades, so just stay away from obviously non-medieval colors. No electric or cobalt or navy blues, no kelly greens, etc. But, even if you won't get silk satin a twill-back charmeuse is not an appropriate substitute. Charmeuse does use a satin-type weave, but the fabric structure just isn't the same, it does't drape and behave like satin. They make great pajamas though. > 2. Is silk noil an acceptable alternative for dress-weight linen? Let me put it to you this away. If you were cooking dinner and ran out of chicken for a chicken stew, would fish be a good substitute in the same dish? No. There are some things you CANNOT substite for each other. Wool, linen, silk and cotton all behave radically differently. The drape differently, are woven differently, are composed differently, react to sweat, sunlight and dirt differently etc., you get the point. Substituting coke-cola for milk in a bread recipe won't yield near-identical results. When linen is cut it MOVES! Takes off, goes every where it can, it is stronger than noil, it absorbs and warms to the body and then shapes itself to that body after about 10-15 minutes or so. Silk noil is a scratchy weak fabric that breaks down is sunlight and cannot take the shaping or sweat like linen can. This is not a suitable substitute at all, it is obvious when you can compare the two of them. Use the noil for unseen things that don't take lots of stress, its cheap but not a particularly good choice for a medieval fourteenth century silk. You asked excellent questions, especially because you gave specifics. "Can I substitute X for Y?" is great because you can get an answer. I applaud your desire for better fabric, but it will cost. It is also worth it when you find it. I actually do have citations, at home and actually have done research. Sigh. Good luck. If you have any more specific questions, which are the best questions you can possibly ask, I will be happy to respond. You can send through private e-mail, I am sure repetition gets tiring for other readers too. Off to my birthday dinner. Your humble if complaining servant, Teresa ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 28 Feb 1996 09:33:09 -0800 From: "R.L. Shep" Subject: Greetings I have just recently signed back on the "h-costume" list after being off for several months, and have just returned from a costume/textile related trip to NW India (Ragasthan & Gujurat/Kutch). If anyone would like information on the museums in Delhi (National & Craft Museum) or those in Ahmedabad (Calico or Shreyas) - or information on the costumes of the area - please contact me via email Also please check out our Web Site which has been altered to be accessible for Netscape2. We will also be adding new Costume/Textiles links in the next couple of months. At present there are 25 - all up and working. R.L. Shep ------------------------------ End of H-Costume Digest V4 #47 ****************************** A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to subscribe to that instead, send the command lines: unsubscribe h-costume-digest subscribe h-costume end in the body of a message to majordomo@lunch.engr.sgi.com. Thanks and enjoy the list!