From: owner-h-costume-digest (H-Costume Digest) To: h-costume-digest@lunch.engr.sgi.com Subject: H-Costume Digest V4 #49 Reply-To: h-costume Sender: owner-h-costume-digest@lunch.engr.sgi.com Errors-To: owner-h-costume-digest@lunch.engr.sgi.com Precedence: bulk H-Costume Digest Thursday, February 29 1996 Volume 4, Number 49 Compilation copyright (C) 1995 Diane Barlow Close and Gretchen Miller Use in whole prohibited. Individual articles are the property of the author. Seek permission from that author before reprinting or quoting elsewhere. Important Addresses: Send submissions to: h-costume@lunch.engr.sgi.com (or reply to this message). Adds/drops/archives: majordomo@lunch.engr.sgi.com Real, live person: h-costume-request@andrew.cmu.edu Topics: Guidance graciously given... Re: 14th C. Silks References for Byzantine? Re: Looking for Lost Wardrobe of Queen Elizabeth.... Costume: Peau de soie Re: Manufacture of fabrics Studying historic costume Fabric information Upcoming San Jose Hist. Museum Classes. Re: 14th Century Silks Re: Professional career Re: Guidance graciously given... Anybody going to San Jose Hist. Museum Classes ? Re: Costume: Peau de soie ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 29 Feb 96 11:52:45 est From: Hilary_Oak_at_SLU1@ccmaillink.stlawu.edu Subject: Guidance graciously given... To Teresa Shannon and the costume history group, I for one am concerned about the tone of Teresa's recent post regarding period fabrics. It puts a bit of gloom in my day to read such an angry response to an honest question. Correct me if I am wrong but it was my impression that this was a friendly forum for questions and answers; a place for like-minded folks to generously share information and ideas. Some of us are new to this electronic media (and this list) and are unaware of the wealth of background information that is available in archives, digests and FAQ pages, or don't know how to access them. If you do not wish to repeat a previous post, simply suggest that info on this subject may be found in this way... at this place... Please don't berate us with the terrible burden of your vast knowledge! While I found your fabric information interesting, the reticence with which you offer it is most unpleasant. Guidance graciously given is gratefully received. Helpful hints heaved in hostility are hard to hear! I hope that this thought helps us to improve our communication skills. Regards, - Hilary ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Feb 1996 12:45:07 -0600 (CST) From: Teresa Shannon Subject: Re: 14th C. Silks > In Thai Silks' current swatch set; the fabrics you remember are still > there, although the velvet is now silk back with a rayon pile, 82% synthetic. Honestly, I think this is a mistake or typo. You would never use a silk ground and then a synthetic pile, there is no point, silk's whole purpose is to see its color and shine. Call them and ask, I can almost guarantee that it is rayon back with silk pile. Now the back may constitute 82% of the fabric, but the pile would still be 100% silk. Incidentally, call the retail number. > I don't see anything listed as peau de soie, but their "silk charmeuse" is > described as "silk satin with crepe back, 18.5 mm, 100% silk" and comes in 32 > colors. That was what I was asking about, not a synthetic lingerie-type > charmeuse (I guess my mention of bridal satin was confusing). Do you think > this could be a new name for the peau de soie? The swatches look a lot like > the "peau de soie" (real silk) shoes I used to get for dying-to-match when I > was young and reckless... I'm afraid this is not the same. Peau de soie is much heavier, 18.5 mm does not qualify, it is their regular weight charmeuse, the colors are beautiful and it is what they make their pajamas out of, I have some men's pajamas that have become nicely sueded. A momme is about .325 oz (books at home, this may be wrong), a japanese weight for measuring silk adopted in Asia. The higher the number the heavier the silk. They may list it as Bridal Satin and then in small type peau de soie which translates to skin of silk. It is much heavier and stiffer, and comes in far less colors. I recommend the ivory and though I never saw it they supposedly have twelve colors. I saw white, black, ivory, pink and green. The green is too bright, I have 8 yards and may try to dye it. By bright I mean it is a kelly green, which is as far as my limited knowledge, is not medieval. Bright colors as in brilliant and clear are period. Modern finishes make the below comment very dangerous. I cannot tell a silk by only the look, I must feel it, crinkle it and in some cases burn it to test. Mimicing fabrics and finishing techniques make things much harder. But once its washed, sewn and worn you can always tell. If nothing there looks like it, again call and ask for it. > (BTW, I _think_ the SCA fabric guidelines' comment about a softer sheen on > bridal satin had to do not with color, but with the surface. A lot of > synthetic satins have a very hard, too-shiny look to them.) After working with silk I can assure you that the charmeuses previously mentioned, as well as jacquards and prints will easily outshine most synthetics. It has to do with the type of dyes and the fabric that takes them. Vegetable dyes do tend to yield less shiny results, but medievals used minerals, mordants and finishing techniques to bring out the shine. And silk will make any color look more brilliant than cotton or linen. If saffron and tumeric are used you can get dyes similar to the red/orange shot silk in thai silks in the sample, really! Synthetics are more limited in taking up dye and brilliance is made up for in the chemical aniline dyes now used. Lighter colors were not popular until the fifteenth century and later. > Again, thanks and I'll shut up now and get the archives. I wish you luck and applaud your efforts. Teresa ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Feb 1996 13:23:27 -0600 (CST) From: Barbara Johannessen Subject: References for Byzantine? Can anyone out there help me find references for women's dress and jewelry in the areas under Byzantine influence during both the early period (ca. 500-600 CE) and the later resurgence (ca.1300's)? I'm specifically looking for upper-middle class, and household retainers to royalty. Kohler has been lightly helpful, but awfully sparse; Wilcox's Mode In Costume is slightly more helpful, but I'm not doing an Empress's clothes. Descriptions would be great, pictures would be wonderful! Thanks, Barbara Johannessen Bailey ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 28 Feb 1996 16:11:49 -0500 From: jreymes@eagle.ca (Reymes) Subject: Re: Looking for Lost Wardrobe of Queen Elizabeth.... Greetings! There is a special publication by the Costume Society of London: "Lost From Her Majesty's Back"; which entails the items lost by Elizabeth I 1561 to 1585; edited with an introduction by Janet Arnold. It is 3 pounds sterling for non members (2 for members). Information on all Costume Society Publications are available from: The Costume Society, Publications, Cara Lancaster, 42 Sydney Street, London SE3 6PS Jennifer Reymes jreymes@eagle.ca ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Feb 1996 09:33:21 -0800 From: ccary@tiara.engr.sgi.com (Christina Cary) Subject: Costume: Peau de soie Hi Historic Costumers, I have used the peau de soie from Thai Silks/Exotic silks (Los Altos, CA) a few times. I don't care for it, myself, although it might be useful to people who want that texture. It has a satin-weave surface and plain back. What I don't like about it is its stiffness. It has no drape at all (it "springs" away) and is very resistant to shaping. It might be good for tightly fitted bodices or bouffant skirts, but it *does not drape* like satin I have seen from other sources. The price is good--about $15 a yard, as I recall. I believe it is very popular and when I was going to order it for a bridal client, we were advised to order it at least six weeks ahead. Christina - -- - --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Christina M. Cary Editor, Technical Publications E-mail address: ccary@tiara.engr.sgi.com ____________________________________________________________________________ ------------------------------ Date: 29 Feb 96 13:03:04 EST From: Michael Percival <101610.1063@compuserve.com> Subject: Re: Manufacture of fabrics I'm hoping someone out there can help me with this query. Later on this year I'm due to give a talk which is indirectly connected with Medieval costume. As a result I am going to need to do some research on fabric manufacture and availability. Does anyone know of a really good book on the manufacture of different fabrics in Medieval Europe? It needs to cover silks, damasks, velvets, cloth of gold/silver etc. (as well as wool and linen) and I need to be able to obtain it in the UK. If it also has information on the export of such fabrics so much the better. Can anyone recommend a book with this information? Maggie Percival ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Feb 1996 17:00:29 -0800 (PST) From: Allan Terry Subject: Studying historic costume You don't need to enroll in a college historic costume design program to learn how to do high-quality historic costuming. You just have to know how to adapt standard courses to your needs. Some colleges let you define a custom major around standard courses, with the help of a sympathetic faculty advisor. Many colleges have home economics departments that offer courses in sewing, flat pattern design, draping, and drafting. I took such courses (even though I was a history major) and found they provided a good solid background in technique. One college offered a course in couture sewing, taught by an instructor who had spent most of her career working in couture. This was invaluable. The same college also offered courses in millinery and tailoring. Most fashion design departments offer a history-of-costume overview course. Though you can get the same information quicker by reading a good overview book. Some theater departments offer courses in theatrical costuming. I never took any, but imagine they would have provided experience in making structural garments like hoops. However, I also imagine they would have emphasized the needs of theatre costume. Which are not always the same as reproductions due to the need to be seen from a distance, change costumes rapidly, etc. Theatrical costuming courses often focus on making costumes for upcoming productions in the school theater. It would also be very useful to take at least one course in historical research technique from the history department. In the San Francisco area, where I live, reproduction costuming workshops are offered by an amateur costumers' guild, by at least one museum, and a few by a business that mostly focuses on workshops for amateur fashion sewers. The drawbacks of these are, it's hard to complete a long project or learn in depth from a few workshop hours; and the courses don't look as good on your resume. Many amateur and part-time costumers are just as good as professionals. The reason they are not professionals is, costuming in general doesn't pay well. If you make custom reproductions, you have to expend lots energy on marketing your services, just like any other small business. When you make costumes for someone else, you have much less control over materials, deadlines, and artistic quality than when you make them for yourself or friends. These are entirely different issues from the abilty to produce high-quality costumes. Fran Grimble ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Feb 1996 17:16:45 -0800 (PST) From: Allan Terry Subject: Fabric information I also found the tone of Teresa Shannon's message rather strange. The whole point of mailing lists such as this is, for any subject there are _many_ knowledgeable people who can give advice. The participation of any one person is entirely voluntary. If a beginning costumer had only one knowledgeable friend, and needed to constantly ask that friend for advice, even a generous friend might find their role a burden. But on the list, a knowledgeable person who is too busy right now to answer a question can be secure in the knowledge that other people will. Fran Grimble ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Feb 1996 17:52:03 -0800 (PST) From: close (Diane Barlow Close) Subject: Upcoming San Jose Hist. Museum Classes. Allan Terry wrote: > In the San Francisco area, where I live, reproduction costuming workshops are > offered by an amateur costumers' guild, by at least one museum, ... Speaking of which, here's the spring/summer schedule for costume classes at the San Jose Historical Museum Association, San Jose, CA: 3/2/96 Parasols 3/9/96 Smocking 3/16/96 Corsets, Session One 3/23/96 Corsets, Session Two 4/6/96 Corsets, Session Three 4/13/96 Silk Ribbon Embroidery 4/20/96 Petticoats: Corded & for 1860's, 1870's, 1880's and 1890's 5/4/96 Taming the Wild Hoop -- Period Movement and Mannerisms 5/18/96 Parasols 6/1/96 Bustles 6/1/96 Cage Crinolines 6/8/96 Hats (Millenary), Session One 6/15/96 Hats, Session Two 6/29/96 Hats, Session Three 7/13/96 Corsets, Session One 7/20/96 Skirts, Session One (Research) 8/3/96 Corsets, Session Two 8/10/96 Skirts, Session Two (Draping & Construction) 8/17/96 Corsets, Session Three 8/24/96 Skirts, Session Three (General Finishing) "The above dates are subject to change. There will be a fee for all classes. All classes require advance sign-up. For details about fees, supplies and class times and locations, contact Julie Peterson at `Vintage Reflections' at (408) 993-8136." - -- Diane Close I'm at lunch all day. :-) If a Canadian Had Said It First (The Globe & Mail): "The price of freedom is eternal vigilance plus GST." ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Feb 1996 19:36:04 GMT From: christyg@cwnet.com (Gilbreath, Christine) Subject: Re: 14th Century Silks >There are those of us on the list that pay particular attention to >specific subjects. These are subjects we are simultaneously researching, >have built some experience and familiarity with, or have identical >questions about. SNIP >I am sure repetition gets tiring for other >readers too. > >Off to my birthday dinner. >Your humble if complaining servant, >Teresa > Happy Birthday! Just wanted to let you know that I do appreciate the time and effort you put into the research you so willingly share! I will also say that I don't get tired of the repetition. Sometimes it takes more than once for something to sink in to my not-so-knowledgable mind. Also, the variations, however so slight, will often make a light click on in one message that didn't quite make it in another. The archives are great, I've had trouble getting the info from time to time, but it all takes practice. I would hate for someone to not ask a question on the grounds that someone else might have already asked it, or it might bore someone. People are also discovering new things all the time, and unless prompted by a question, might not even think it worth sharing. Such a shame. Well back to the reading. Thanks again to all of you who share so much. Christy Gilbreath christyg@cwnet.com American Museum of Straw Arts ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Feb 1996 10:10:12 -0600 (CST) From: Teresa Shannon Subject: Re: Professional career Get the address for the Courtauld Institute in England, ask for their degree program, and attend. They have the name and the staff, plus the connections and expertise for historic costuming. Its probably cheaper than sourthern California, anyway. This would be like going to Harvard for law school, overkill, but the name and talent tend to gather in only a few places. Perhaps our friends across the pond can assist? Your servant, Teresa ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Feb 1996 13:17:48 -0600 (CST) From: Teresa Shannon Subject: Re: Guidance graciously given... Teresa's response: Typically I let these slide, but I will respond. E-mail is that most informal of communication mediums, it is therefore the most dangerous to take at face value. On the phone or in a letter one may emphasize or intone something, not so with e-mail, it is literal. One is blatant or not at all. One can convey sarcasm or humor occaisionally by inserting emoticons. But really its just the words you see. If you read something into a post, and especially my posts, it is because you do just that. (You being a general term and not pointed at you Ms. Oaks, although your comment makes this example inclusive.) If you read an angry response it is because you brought the anger into it and not from a seething dripping tone heard in the voice, conveyed with body-language or emphasized with a pen stroke. I have had many responses from that post, most of them private and all of them supportive, thankful, or requesting additional information and a delightful response from the person who did request advice. You were the only person who has portrayed the post as an example of boorish and ill-mannered etiquette, not to mention an emotional one at all. If you wish to take issue with the information on silks in the letter that is fine, the comment is welcome, expected and what the disscussion subject is for. If you comment on my reason why I wrote the letter at all, as was explained in the introduction, than I do not think that is appropriate for the whole list discussion. I believe I brought up a valid concern regarding acessing archives as this is a voluntary list group and we all devote a good amount of time to it, some like Julie Adams or Heather Rose, Diane Close (and many others) support the list with an inordinate amount of time, for which they should be applauded. I take my time out of work, the only place I can do this, to respond with what I hope is accurate information on a very vague subject. This is difficult to do and very time-consuming. If I remind or reference people to look in the archives first, I consider it an appropriate thing to do. People should look there first. It is like going to the library and up to the reference desk asking for books on horses. "Have you checked the card catalog?"--will be the FIRST response. If we do not do this but always continuously answer the same questions over and over than 1) I will never have time to answer, research or discuss other information and 2) the list will cease to serve much of its purpose for me. It will become a basic information resource and not a discussion group where information may be "progressively" discussed, that is where we can take information and develop a discussion over time, adding information and comments and actually getting somewhere. Is it too much to ask if someone prepares themselves with previous information before they jump into a discussion, or in this case a newsgroup with discussions? This seems to be the rule on my academic newsgroups, and I fail to see how this is rude or inappropriate etiquette, quite the opposite. If this is not what the group is for e-mail privately Diane and we'll clarify it for me. I think Diane's response was appropriate, I think once a month reminders about accessing the archives is good and necessary (and thank her for the repost) plus when you join, but as many people don't read the literature, a reminder for the information is not unwarranted. I and multitudinous others have generously shared information over and over, I don't think it is too much to ask any who wants to take advantage of us and our resources to be a little more prepared when they do. I try when I ask for help. Information is a commodity, and in academics it is money, time and life, it should be well respected and thrice-blessed if it is good and free. Teresa ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 1 Mar 1996 08:09:51 +0000 From: Lynoure Rajam{ki Subject: Anybody going to San Jose Hist. Museum Classes ? I started thinking it would be nice to hear what people learn on those classes. I am especially interested in learning about corsets and how to make them, but can't go to the classes simply because I live absurdly far away (Finland, Europe). So if any of you is going to the corset classes, I would love to have either copy of the notes you might make there or a summary of things you learned. Lynoure (living absurdly far away from almost everything) ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 1 Mar 1996 01:19:46 -0500 (EST) From: Katherine Cleaver Subject: Re: Costume: Peau de soie On Thu, 29 Feb 1996, Christina Cary wrote: > I have used the peau de soie from Thai Silks/Exotic silks (Los Altos, CA) a few > times. I don't care for it, myself, although it might be useful to people who > want that texture. It has a satin-weave surface and plain back. What I don't > like about it is its stiffness. It has no drape at all (it "springs" away) and > is very resistant to shaping. It might be good for tightly fitted bodices or > bouffant skirts, but it *does not drape* like satin I have seen from other > sources. Peau de soie is always fairly stiff. It actually has a fairly noticeable ribbed backing (this is how to identify it) and this rib is one of the reasons for it's stiffness. It is usually in style in periods of "stiff and structured" silhouettes, most notably the 1950's, so if you are looking for drape and fluidity, forget peau de soie. Kathy Kathy Cleaver School of Fashion Ryerson Polytechnical Univ 350 Victoria St Toronto, Ont. M5B 2K3 kcleaver@acs.ryerson.ca ------------------------------ End of H-Costume Digest V4 #49 ****************************** A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to subscribe to that instead, send the command lines: unsubscribe h-costume-digest subscribe h-costume end in the body of a message to majordomo@lunch.engr.sgi.com. Thanks and enjoy the list!