From: owner-h-costume-digest (H-Costume Digest) To: h-costume-digest@lunch.engr.sgi.com Subject: H-Costume Digest V4 #50 Reply-To: h-costume Sender: owner-h-costume-digest@lunch.engr.sgi.com Errors-To: owner-h-costume-digest@lunch.engr.sgi.com Precedence: bulk H-Costume Digest Sunday, March 3 1996 Volume 4, Number 50 Compilation copyright (C) 1995 Diane Barlow Close and Gretchen Miller Use in whole prohibited. Individual articles are the property of the author. Seek permission from that author before reprinting or quoting elsewhere. Important Addresses: Send submissions to: h-costume@lunch.engr.sgi.com (or reply to this message). Adds/drops/archives: majordomo@lunch.engr.sgi.com Real, live person: h-costume-request@andrew.cmu.edu Topics: Re: Professional career Information Re: RenFaire Re: Information Anybody heard of this guy? Re: Information The Ribbonry and it's potential website.... Re: costume breakdown Re: Anybody heard of this guy? Knights Templar Uniform E-mail misunderstandings Re: Fabric Finishing Re: E-mail misunderstandings re: e-mail Kirtle Re: Kirtle H-costume list ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 29 Feb 1996 23:09:25 -0800 (PST) From: Deborah Tarsiewicz - 3528981 Subject: Re: Professional career On Thu, 29 Feb 1996, Teresa Shannon wrote: > Get the address for the Courtauld Institute in England, ask for their > degree program, and attend. They have the name and the staff, plus the > connections and expertise for historic costuming... > > Perhaps our friends across the pond can assist? > > Your servant, > Teresa > If anyone out there has a current address for the Courtald Institute I would appreciate their sending it my way as well. I wrote to them last month at an address I believed was current but the letter was returned with a note saying that they were no longer at that address. Thanks! Deborah Tarsiewicz Riverside CA dtarsiew@nunic.nu.edu ------------------------------ Date: 01 Mar 96 09:55:00 GMT From: Mrs C S Yeldham Subject: Information Courtauld Institute of Art Somerset House Strand WC2R 0RN 0171 872 0220 Students Union number is 0171 873 2717 - they may be able to advise you on grants etc. However, I am under the impression that they are much more on the conservation side than making - I know someone who went there to do conservation of fabrics. There are other English courses, but more on the theatrical side. I have friends who have done a theatrical design/making course at Brighton which I understand is rated quite highly. I can get details if someone wants them. May I say I agree with Teresa. As someone who claims to know something about the 16th century in England, when I see a posting along the lines of "I've never made a costume, I'm new to the list, and I want to make an Elizabethan costume" I'm afraid my heart sinks. There's just too much to try to communicate, much of which cannot be done with text alone, and most of that is in the archives (repeat after me, Janet Arnold and Jean Hunnisett :-)). I think it is fair enough to say 'look at the archives' first when asking a general question which is likely to have been asked before. Yes, the list is an information source, but surely it should be an information source for all of us, not where a few 'experts' can be questioned, because we will lose experts like Teresa if there is nothing in it for her. Having said which I found Teresa's analysis fascinating, and just wish I had samples of the silks available! I am amazed at the prices quoted - $15 for heavy weight silk! its at least #10 a metre for dupion in the UK, and thats the cheapest. Caroline ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 1 Mar 1996 08:02:57 CDT From: "Cindy Abel" Subject: Re: RenFaire A friend and I are hopefully, finally going to be able to visit the local RenFaire this year. We would both like to dress for it. Visitors are welcome to come in costume. My friend is planning to go as a peasant--but if I can manage it--I'd like to go more as a lady's maid or merchant's wife. I have access for the sources to research, but wonder if as a general rule, one has to start as a peasant and earn the right to move up the social scale? I don't want to offend the members of the local society. I love Elizabethan costume, but the era 1200-1400 has styles that are easier to cut and fit. I'd appreciate any general guidance on what is considered proper. My humble thanks Cindy Abel Health Sciences Library Creighton University 2500 California Plaza Omaha NE 68178-0400 Phone: 402-280-5144 ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 1 Mar 1996 08:43:26 -0600 (CST) From: Teresa Shannon Subject: Re: Information On 1 Mar 1996, Mrs C S Yeldham wrote: > > Having said which I found Teresa's analysis fascinating, and just wish I > had samples of the silks available! I am amazed at the prices quoted - $15 > for heavy weight silk! its at least #10 a metre for dupion in the UK, and > thats the cheapest. > > Caroline Thai silks will do mailorder overseas! :-) If you qualify for wholesale dupioni indian and chinese becomes much more reasonable, say 12.00 U.S. $ a yard. Oh, I looked at a new Thai Silks list and times have changed. They do still have peau de soie, but it is now listed under Ducheese satin grade A. Grade B is limper with more drape (which isn't saying much as others were correct to point out its stiffness). However, that stiffness is what attracted me to it. The original poster asked about medieval equivalents and the limp satin pictured in Victorian paintings and our conceptions of satin today bear less resemblence to some of the medieval offerings. They did make their tents out of this stuff. (Note: that was a broad generalization undoubtedly they used a different loom and weaving method between satin for tents and clothing satin, I just don't have any proof yet, but I do have some leads...) I don't recall yet coming upon a description of a woman's cotehardie (which would be tight fitting) in satin. Perhaps one of the literary romantic books contain one, darn now I'll have to check (add to list...). Samites and demisatyns may have allowed for more drape, but it seems satin in the 14th century in England was used more for men's gypons (later half) where the stiffness would be appreciated. Thank you for the phone number of the Institute, Caroline any news on the swiss weavers? Cordially, Teresa ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 1 Mar 1996 08:37:51 +0000 From: "Jennifer Kubenka" Subject: Anybody heard of this guy? Hi all. I was meandering through the dusty old Dewey section of the SMU Library yesterday, when I ran across some books by a man named Paul Giafferri, written in the 1920-30s. The names of the two books are: The history of French masculine costume. The history of the feminine costume of the world, from the year 5318 B.C. to our century. Both of these books were published in New York by a company called Foreign Publications. There are no references at all, anywhere, in these books, and some of the pictures (drawings, which I think makes them, at best, a tertiary source) are rather interesting. If you know anything about these books or this author, will you please share your knowledge with me? I am rather suspicious about some his claims, but they do make for interesting coffee-break reading. Jennifer, in Dallas, cataloging away.... ------------------------------ Date: 01 Mar 96 16:33:00 GMT From: Mrs C S Yeldham Subject: Re: Information - -------------------------------- ATTACHMENT -------------------------------- Author : Subject: Re: Information >On 1 Mar 1996, Mrs C S Yeldham wrote: >> >> Having said which I found Teresa's analysis fascinating, and just wish I >> had samples of the silks available! I am amazed at the prices quoted - $15 >> for heavy weight silk! its at least #10 a metre for dupion in the UK, and >> thats the cheapest. >> >> Caroline >Thai silks will do mailorder overseas! :-) >If you qualify for wholesale dupioni indian and chinese becomes much more >reasonable, say 12.00 U.S. $ a yard. Oh, don't tempt me to spend more money on cloth! On the other hand, if several of us in the UK wanted silk, it might well be worth it - any thoughts folks? The current rate of exchange is $1.40 to #1, and I could put it on my credit card (wince!) >Thank you for the phone number of the Institute, Caroline any news on the >swiss weavers? >Cordially, >Teresa Sorry, my contact is moving house at the moment, and expecting his second child any moment, so it seemed tactful to leave it a little while! Caroline ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 01 Mar 96 16:17:15 +0500 From: splumb@ic.net Subject: The Ribbonry and it's potential website.... Much thanks to all who responded to my message last week. I will be there in the morning for a millinery class, and will pass on all your responses. Hopefully something will come of it; from my searches on the web, Camela's specialty seems to be totally unique. Thanks again! Michelle ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 1 Mar 1996 17:08:20 -0500 From: PierresRJW@aol.com Subject: Re: costume breakdown you can "age" or color a piece by using fullers earth. A safer more washable method is to go to your local costumer who carries make-up and ask them for plains dust. This product will "dirty" up an outfit and make it look old. You can also use ash powder , again also available at your costumer. I dont ever reccomend dry cleaning for anything....wash it if you can...even if the fibers are "dry-clean only" about the only things that cant be washed are items with linings of different types of material. Dry cleaning is an oxymoron. It is neither dry nor cleaning. Putting petroleom spirits on a piece accelerates the break down process of the fibers. Spot clean with dry cleaning fluid and sponge the item if you cant wash it. Hope this helps Rich Williamson Pierre's Costumes PierresRJW@AOL.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 01 Mar 1996 15:17:45 -0800 From: "R.L. Shep" Subject: Re: Anybody heard of this guy? Jennifer Kubenka wrote: > Library yesterday, when I ran across some books by a man named Paul > Giafferri, written in the 1920-30s. > The names of the two books are: > The history of French masculine costume. > The history of the feminine costume of the world, from the year 5318 B.C. > to our century. > [snip] YES He wrote books (mostly illustrations actually) on French costume for men and another for women. These books came out in French and then later in English. They sell for a fair amount of money (like $150 - $200 each) if they can be found. Since I don't do that part of the business anymore (i.e. used/out of print & foreign costume books) you should contact Fred Struthers who has all my records plus his own (and may even have a copy listed under "de Gaiferri" I believe. Actually it should be listed in the Union catalog as well. R.l. Shep ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 1 Mar 1996 10:04:47 -0700 (MST) From: "Cherry K. Emerson" Subject: Knights Templar Uniform I am assisting an older woman in disposing of her possessions prior to entering a nursing home. There is the old Knights Templar (sic?) uniform complete with hat/sword holder (no sword) that belonged to "daddy vern" It is probably from the the 1920-1930's. Any interest from this list on purchasing? It is a smaller size, probably for someone about 5 foot 5 inches and 120-140 pounds. Got the name for this list from the vintage list... I also trade in costume jewelery to keep my habit of costume jewelery going. Cherry Emerson 2939 Eagle Way Boulder, CO 80301 (303) 443-1139 voice (303) 440-5068 fax ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 1 Mar 1996 18:55:14 -0800 (PST) From: Allan Terry Subject: E-mail misunderstandings As a writer, I feel blaming the medium of e-mail for any miscommunication is a cop-out. People have been using letters as a medium for centuries and they've worked fine. E-mail differs from a letter only in that it's faster to send. (And not all that much faster. It only takes a few minutes to drop a letter in the mailbox; the additional time taken by the post office is not available for rewriting.) This means the _writer_ bears the responsibility for rereading a message before sending it, just as with a letter. If the writer hastily sends a badly thought-out message, that's the writer's fault. Not the fault of the readers or e-mail as a medium. Although e-mail (just like letters) does not convey facial expressions or tones of voice, facial expressions and tones can be misleading. During a personal communication, people may have other things on their minds that have nothing to do with that communication, but which show in their voices, etc. A written communication is much more focused. Any difficult or unrelated emotions can be edited out. And often should be. But again, this is the _writer's_ responsibility. Although I'm all for polite and well-written e-mail, I don't think it's reasonable to impose rigid communication standards on others. If some people want to have only progressive discussions or write their e-mail to academic publishing standards, fine. But that doesn't mean they should require everybody else to do these things. In professional publishing, many styles and approaches are welcomed and necessary. Nobody says, "I read and write costuming books for professionals, so nobody else should be writing them for beginners." I think this is a valid comparison, since a mailing list is, in effect, a collective amateur publication. Fran Grimble ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 01 Mar 1996 23:08:04 PST From: meier@ssrl01.slac.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Fabric Finishing One quick note on the finishing of fabric a la Don Johnson's stubble: I managed to recall that the tip given to men who wanted to cultivate that oh-so-fashionable stubble was that they should shave with their razor's sideburn-trimming attachment. No fancy devices necessary. Perhaps this would hold true for other nappy surfaces. Miami Ad-Vice from Vanessa Schnatmeier =============================================================================== Vanessa Schnatmeier MEIER@SSRL750.BITNET or MEIER@SSRL01.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Disclaimer: I speak only for myself, not SLAC or SSRL =============================================================================== ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 2 Mar 1996 11:27:58 -0500 From: "L. R. Peters" Subject: Re: E-mail misunderstandings If some >people want to have only progressive discussions or write their e-mail to >academic publishing standards, fine. But that doesn't mean they should >require everybody else to do these things. In professional publishing, many >styles and approaches are welcomed and necessary.......................... >them for beginners." I think this is a valid comparison, since a mailing >list is, in effect, a collective amateur publication. > Perhaps *in theory* this might be called a *collective amateur publication* the Internet developed from academic and government needs for research and communication. The origins of Internet are still linked to "professional" reserach needs...regardless of the recent and massive influx of comercial users. I have seen various professional publications use the words "personal communication" when referring to personal letters, and this is now happening with correspondance and taking place over the Net. Although it is usually polite to ask someone writing a personal letter or an e-mail note/letter, this doesn't always happen. Although some folks might be inclined to view these communications as a "amateur" effort, the postings in effect, become available for all and everyone to read...and re-use. So, if you write it, the letter or e-mail becomes the property of the person(s) to whom it is addressed. It may be quoted or re-used whether you like it or not. This group is very broad and there are several people who are actively envolved in costuming/clothing curation/museum work et cetera that this is not a simple "amateur" publication. Anything you post here is going to get read by several knowledgable people. It is more than an "amateur" effort. It isn't a full-blown professional one, but it isn't an ameteur one either. One purpose of this list is the exchange of information and ideas, and this is more "academic" in nature than recreational or amusement. Although the h-costume list might not be strictly an academic one, I wouldn't be so quick to call it "amateur" either. Really and truly, it is a mix. To call this list an "amateur" one is condescending to several very well-read and very well-informed people out there. Yes there are some who are novices, and by no stretch of the imagination could be called professionals, I feel it is better to over-estimate the background and abilities of the collective audience than to fall into the trap of "talking downwards." Les ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 02 Mar 1996 13:23:01 -0600 (CST) From: "Joan St.Germain" Subject: re: e-mail I've no wish to offend any gentle readers here, BUT - Everests are being made of the perceived / implied tone of one particular posting. A rather nice apology was tendered for the Said posting. Let's all be gracious and drop the topic now, and get back to those great historical discussions. I particularly enjoy the ballroom etiquette topic - has anyone read Aldrich's FROM THE BALLROOM TO HELL? I found it at a used bookstore, but haven't had time to crack it open. Was it a worthwhile purchase (under $10)? Yours - Joan ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 2 Mar 1996 20:36:05 -0500 From: sunfire@muskoka.com (Stephen & Krista Fraser) Subject: Kirtle Hi! Any suggestions for what material to use to make a kirtle to go under a cotehardie? I'd like to use a fairly light weight material so I don't sweat to death. :) Krista sunfire@muskoka.com ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 2 Mar 1996 18:58:33 -0800 (PST) From: "Sarah E. Goodman" Subject: Re: Kirtle > Any suggestions for what material to use to make a kirtle to go under a > cotehardie? I'd like to use a fairly light weight material so I don't sweat > to death. :) Linen. Flea-market for old sheets/tablecloths. I had a long discussion with one of the reinactors at Tower of London who had gone the whole summer (which in London last year did a good imitation of Florida) in linen under wool and says he was much more comfortable than the tourists in their shorts. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 3 Mar 1996 17:01:42 -0800 (PST) From: Allan Terry Subject: H-costume list Les, I'm not sure what the purpose of your message is--you mostly seem to be arguing about terminology. The English language is ambiguous. It is common and perfectly permissible for different people to use the same terms in slightly different ways. My definitions seem to be slightly different from yours, which perhaps has confused you. To clarify: I'm not condescending to anyone when I describe the h-costume list as an amateur publication. First, although most of the postings seem to be by and for people who make costumes for enjoyment rather than a living, I don't see that this downgrades their efforts at all. Or that it means they don't contribute valuable information. I'm an amateur costumer myself. I think my costumes are high quality (even quite authentic), and that I'm well read and knowledgeable. I don't see these abilities as in any way incompatible with being an amateur. Second, regardless of whether the postings are by amateur or professional _costumers_, this list is an amateur _publication_. My profession is, actually, publishing. A professional publication is usually sold for money. This list is not. Furthermore, professional publications do not accept articles or even letters from anyone and everyone. Their writers are expected to work to professional standards--but they're paid to do that, and the members of this list are not. And, accepted articles are edited by the publication's employees. The messages on this list are not, as far as I know, edited by anyone but their writers. The original or present purpose of the Internet is irrelevant, since each mailing list or b-board is a separate publication. As you must know, these vary tremendiously in purpose, content, and tone. I am disturbed by your statement that "the postings in effect, become available for all and everyone to read...and re-use. So, if you write it, the letter or e-mail becomes the property of the person(s) to whom it is addressed. It may be quoted or re-used whether you like it or not." Communications are _copyright_ from the time they are written, regardless of whether the copyright has been registered. The copyright to a personal letter belongs to the _writer_, even if the recipient owns the only copy of the letter. Just because a communication has been read by many people, doesn't mean it's not copyright. A best-selling novel is read by millions and still retains copyright protection. Copyright violation is unethical, as well as illegal. Writers need to make a living from their work. It's true that ideas and information are not copyright, only the expression of them. And the information posted on this list is presumably meant to be used. But I doubt anyone expects all messages on an Internet mailing list not explicitly intended for academics, to consistently describe valuable new research or include full bibliographies. Or to describe "totally authentic" costuming methods. Yet, informal postings are very valuable to many readers. I appreciate the informality and variety of the h-costume list, and would very much like those qualities to persist. Fran Grimble ------------------------------ End of H-Costume Digest V4 #50 ****************************** A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to subscribe to that instead, send the command lines: unsubscribe h-costume-digest subscribe h-costume end in the body of a message to majordomo@lunch.engr.sgi.com. Thanks and enjoy the list!