From: owner-h-costume-digest (H-Costume Digest) To: h-costume-digest@lunch.engr.sgi.com Subject: H-Costume Digest V4 #52 Reply-To: h-costume Sender: owner-h-costume-digest@lunch.engr.sgi.com Errors-To: owner-h-costume-digest@lunch.engr.sgi.com Precedence: bulk H-Costume Digest Wednesday, March 6 1996 Volume 4, Number 52 Compilation copyright (C) 1996 Diane Barlow Close and Gretchen Miller Use in whole prohibited. Individual articles are the property of the author. Seek permission from that author before reprinting or quoting elsewhere. Important Addresses: Send submissions to: h-costume@lunch.engr.sgi.com (or reply to this message). Adds/drops/archives: majordomo@lunch.engr.sgi.com Real, live person: h-costume-request@andrew.cmu.edu Topics: Cosmetic recipe from 1719 Re: Videos Re: Patterning books RE: Antique Egypt breastplate cover Puritans Washing Linen Re: Washing Linen Thai Silks Re: Knights Templar or... Re: Knights Templar or... Re: Washing Linen RE: Antique Egypt Fwd: Puritans Fwd: breastplate cover Re: Fwd: breastplate cover I do not know what relevance this is? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 5 Mar 1996 17:08:08 -0800 From: Cin Subject: Cosmetic recipe from 1719 Why have a beautiful gown if the face and breath are not equally sweet and fresh? From a Butler's Recipe Book by "Your Ladyships Most Humble & most Obeiant Sarvent Thomas Newington" (spelling & capitalization per the original text). Rosemary Watter Flowers of Rosemary being distill, the water being Drunke at morning and evening first and last, taketh away the stench of the mouth and beath and maketh it very sweet. Add thereunto to steepe or infuse for Eight or 10 Dayes sum Cloves Mace Cinamon and a few Aniseeds. Rosemary Flowers, made up into plates with Duble Refine Sugar affter the manner of Sugar Rossets and eaten, comfort the heart and make it merry, quicken the spirits and make them more lively. - --cin cin@netuser.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 5 Mar 1996 17:15:01 -0800 (PST) From: "Sarah E. Goodman" Subject: Re: Videos > Travels with my Aunt (Maffie Smith, Alec McCowen, Lou Gosset)..$19.99 > (I have never seen this so I have no idea what the costumes are like, > but it sounds alot like Mame). My Ghods! That was Lou Gosset?!? It's a great movie, but I don't remember the costumes as being all that spectacular. It mostly happens in the "present" (which is probably the early 70s but I don't quite remember) with a few flashbacks. It's sort of a gritty, British lower middle class Auntie Mame, yes. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 5 Mar 1996 20:28:51 -0500 From: WowCarol@aol.com Subject: Re: Patterning books Hi! I would like to add one book to those that Hilary mentioned, simply because it is so comprehensive. It is called "Patternmaking for fashion design", by Helen Joseph Armstrong. I picked this book up at the F.I.T. (Fashion Institute of Technology) student bookstore. It is thoroughly illustrated, technical but well-written, and goes from the simplest to most complicated flat-patterning concepts. And though we're not here to talk about fashion design, the lessons and principles certainly apply to any kind of garment. On the downside, the book is big, heavy, and kind of expensive, and textbooky in the sense that it attempts to give the reader homework assignments. If you can handle the indignity of being treated like a humble student by a fabulous teacher, this book is the greatest. - -Carol Binion ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 5 Mar 1996 17:28:41 -0800 From: Cheryl Melnick Subject: RE: Antique Egypt If you don't find anything, and you are in the United States, I might suggest contacting the Egyptian Museum and Planetarium located in San Jose, California Phone: (408) 947-3636. I don't know if they will help you over the phone, but they were very helpful in person when I asked tons of questions. Good luck Cheryl ********************************************************* Cheryl Melnick Sessionware, Inc General Manager Phone:408-559-7799 cheryl@sessionware.com http://www.sessionware.com >---------- >From: Silvestre Garcia[SMTP:sgarcia@infosel.net.mx] >Sent: Wednesday, February 28, 1996 7:59 AM >To: h-costume@lunch.engr.sgi.com >Subject: Antique Egypt > >We are still in search of patterns, clothing, accessories and materials >from >the Antique Egypt ( Middle and New Empires) . I need help. >Thanks. >Yolis > > > ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 5 Mar 1996 21:41:12 -0500 From: Gaelscot@aol.com Subject: breastplate cover Hello everyone! I am asking this question on behalf of my husband, who is attempting to recreate 15th-century armor and clothing. I know that several gentlemen with similar interests have responded to questions before, so I hope someone can help me with this question. My husband recently discovered what appears to be a fabric breastplate cover in a painting. The painting, "St. George Killing the Dragon," was done between 1430-35 by Catalan (Spanish) painter Bernardo Martorell, and the image he's looking at is on p. 22 of "Arms and Armor of the Art Institute of Chicago." According to the author(s), "the artist has captured the armor and weapons of a fifteenth-century knight with extraordinary accuracy." The breastplate cover seems to be made of white cloth with an embroidered or metal cross on it and a thigh-length or so cape attached (?) to it. In the painting, you can see where the cover attaches to the metal breastplate with four ties on the bottom and two on (presumably) both sides. The top is covered by a gorget. My husband's questions are: 1) Has anyone seen this in any other paintings? 2) Is it unique to Spain? 3) Would it just be used for tournaments and/or parades, or was it also for warfare? 4) If this is not a common method of dressing up a breastplate, what was? 5) Any other information in general? TIA for your help and, if you feel that few people on the list would be interested, you may certainly e-mail me directly. Gail (for Scott) Finke/gaelscot@aol.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 5 Mar 1996 19:21:46 -0500 From: WowCarol@aol.com Subject: Puritans Hi all. I am interested in hearing from anyone with knowledge about the clothing of Puritans, specifically during the time of the Salem witch trials (Massachusetts, 1690's). I am particularly interested in clothing of farmers and the clergy. Colors? Fastenings? Footwear? Would also appreciate any details that can be supplied regarding women's undergarments of the day. Thank you, O Wise Ones. - -Carol Binion ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 06 Mar 1996 00:28:12 -0500 (EST) From: GINA@delphi.com Subject: Washing Linen As a "newbie" here, I must say that I very much enjoy the postings! And, there seems to be a vast amount of fabric knowldege here, I am hoping that someone can enlighten me. I am planning to do Medieval or late 13th c. costumes, and I want to use genuine linen of a medium to medium-heavy weight. I have examined quite a bit of in the shops and all of the bolt tags indicate that it must be "dry cleaned only". However, the "finished" texture of the linen seems to me to be far to finely finished and smooth. It seems to me that washing it would remove some of that apperance, and perhaps yield a softer and more sublte product. Is this advisable? What can I expect to happen...besides endless wrinkles? I have been told by some that the linen would wrinkle so badly that it would, perhaps, never be able to be pressed out. This seems strange to me, as I believe that linen has been used extensively in many cultures and times...far in advance of the invention of "dry cleaning". The idea I have in mind is really to pre-treat the linen before cutting and stitching, so that the resulting garment could be laundered after use...and would hopefully become softer and softer and not shrink. I would greatly appreciate any input from those here that have knowledge and experience with this. At $15.00 and up per yard, I would be loathe to "experiment". This idea occurred to me after reading numerous postings about the "fulling" of wool...which I also want to try, and to incorporated (oops! pardon the "d") into these gowns. Thank you, Jocasta Chamberlayne of Charnwood Forest (mundanely known as Regina) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 5 Mar 1996 22:45:43 -0800 (PST) From: "Sarah E. Goodman" Subject: Re: Washing Linen > The idea I have in mind is really to pre-treat the linen before cutting and > stitching, so that the resulting garment could be laundered after use...and > would hopefully become softer and softer and not shrink. In general you should do the "worst" you are going to do to the fabric (even if it's dry cleaning) before you cut, to avoid suprises. I hate dry cleaning (because it's expensive and because if I don't air the cloths for a couple of days I can't stand the smell) so I wash almost all fabrics before I use them (both for period stuff and modern) and haven't had much trouble. Things that make me nervous enough to double-think this policy (and test wash a quarter yard or so) include heavy nap, stamped "watering" and surface finishes (like metalics) I'm not sure will take the heat of ironing. Occassionally something which is heavily sized has lost it's "hand" and I've had to change my plans for it (from crisp/tailored to soft/drapy) but that should be a problem in the periods you are talking about anyway. ------------------------------ Date: 06 Mar 96 10:45:00 GMT From: Mrs C S Yeldham Subject: Thai Silks Sorry to do the same thing I've just complained about, but could anyone please repost the contact details for Thai Silks. I have looked, but can't find it, honest! Caroline ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 6 Mar 1996 08:43:20 -0500 From: Kevin Richard-Morrow Subject: Re: Knights Templar or... At 04:12 PM 3/5/96 -0800, you wrote: >I think what is being referred to as a "Knights Templar costume" is >actually a Knights of Columbus costume. > There is a hat >that goes along with this - that kind of hat shape one associates with >Napoleon (I don't know what it's called). The current "Knights Templar" are a Masonic order and aren't the Knights of Columbus. Confusing the two can "raise dander" on either side. The hat is called a bi-corn, as opposed to a tri-corn. The Knights Templar clothes I have seen (I grew up in a "Masonic" household) looked surprisingly like a 19th century admiral's dress uniform, black bi-corn with white plumes, black formal frock coat, black dress trousers with black silk stripe down the outside seam, white gloves, dress sword. I don't recall the exact nature of the sword carrage, I beleave it was on a waist belt worn outside the coat. There may have been some badges or other jewelery worn that I don't clearly recall. Be aware of the secret nature of these societies and tread lightly when seeking information on ritual matters, including dress. Kevin Richard-Morrow ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 06 Mar 1996 09:21:03 -0500 From: Joe Marfice Subject: Re: Knights Templar or... On Tue, 5 Mar 1996, Elizabeth Fox wrote: >I think what is being referred to as a "Knights Templar costume" is >actually a Knights of Columbus costume. Make no bones about it, the Masonic Order of the Knight's Templar is in _no_way_ associated with the Knights of Columbus. The former exists, though some would doubt its direct historical lineage from the famed Templars of old, but the K of C is affiliated with the Catholic Church. The Vatican and the K of T haven't quite seen eye-to-eye, ever since that little incident where the K of T were declared heretics, excommunicated, and their leaders burned alive at the stake. The uniforms of these two groups seem very similar, but not identical, according to the descriptions. The Maltese Cross is associated with the Knights Templar, however; I have never seen it's use in a K of C setting. BTW, at the stake, the Grand Master of the Temple cursed the Pope and King who condemned him, swearing they would meet him before God in jugdgment soon. Both were dead within the twelvemonth. Disclaimer: I am not a paid operative of the Temple, nor the Holy Roman Emperor, just interested in the history of both. | Broom at The Lady Perrine | Ministerium honor est. \|/ Which means "I don't know: I don't speak Latin American." /|\ 513-222-2330 233 Perrine Street //|\\ af289@dayton.wright.edu Dayton (my fayre citee), OH 45410 ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 6 Mar 1996 08:58:13 -0600 (CST) From: Joe Lichtenstein Subject: Re: Washing Linen At 12:28 AM 3/6/96 -0500, you wrote: > >It seems to me that washing it would remove some of that apperance, and perhaps >yield a softer and more sublte product. Is this advisable? What can I >expect to happen...besides endless wrinkles? I have been told by some that >the linen would wrinkle so badly that it would, perhaps, never be able to >be pressed out. > >The idea I have in mind is really to pre-treat the linen before cutting and >stitching, so that the resulting garment could be laundered after use...and >would hopefully become softer and softer and not shrink. > >Thank you, > >Jocasta Chamberlayne of Charnwood Forest >(mundanely known as Regina) Regina, My husband and I make 18th century reproductions and routinely wash linen before we cut the garment out.(we wash all our silk as well) When I was in college, an instructor told us the reason "dry cleaning" is recommended for these fabrics is so just in case something would happen to the fabric, the manufacturer can say you didn't wash the fabric/garment properly. And the label "dry cleaning only" adds prestige to a garment as well. The linen will become softer and wrinkle after washing. I'm not sure if you'll be able to get all the wrinkles out, but you'll be adding wrinkles as you wear it anyway. I think it just adds character to the finished piece. I can't imagine too many people in the past would have had perfectly pressed linen garments. Am I wrong on this?? At least what we portray in the common/working class I don't think so. Anyway, wash your linen and enjoy!!!! Lezlie Olde World Drygoods ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 06 Mar 96 09:16:00 CST From: "Lassman, Linda" Subject: RE: Antique Egypt I'd be a little leery about accepting the information of the Egyptian Museum in San Jose as "gospel"--it's a really interesting museum, but it's the home base of the Rosecrucians, who are great on mysticism and weak on strict adherence to historical fact. A better US source might be the Field Museum in Chicago, which has a nice replica tomb display and a small gift area which has a number of books available. While it's a much smaller display and gift area than it was 3 years ago, I was there in November and it still had some interesting things. I would imagine the MMA in New York, the Smithsonian in Washington and one of the larger museums in Los Angeles would also be good possibilities. The ROM in Toronto would be a suggestion for Canada. - Linda Lassman Winnipeg, Manitoba ---------- From: Cheryl Melnick To: 'Silvestre Garcia' Cc: 'h-costume@lunch.engr.sgi.com' Subject: RE: Antique Egypt Date: 5 March 1996 17:28 If you don't find anything, and you are in the United States, I might suggest contacting the Egyptian Museum and Planetarium located in San Jose, California Phone: (408) 947-3636. I don't know if they will help you over the phone, but they were very helpful in person when I asked tons of questions. Good luck Cheryl ********************************************************* Cheryl Melnick Sessionware, Inc General Manager Phone:408-559-7799 cheryl@sessionware.com http://www.sessionware.com >---------- >From: Silvestre Garcia[SMTP:sgarcia@infosel.net.mx] >Sent: Wednesday, February 28, 1996 7:59 AM >To: h-costume@lunch.engr.sgi.com >Subject: Antique Egypt > >We are still in search of patterns, clothing, accessories and materials >from >the Antique Egypt ( Middle and New Empires) . I need help. >Thanks. >Yolis > > > ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 6 Mar 1996 10:27:02 -0500 From: DRGNFTR@aol.com Subject: Fwd: Puritans - --------------------- Forwarded message: Subj: Re: Puritans Date: 96-03-06 09:57:27 EST From: DRGNFTR To: WowCarol Hi, Carol For clothing of the 17th century I would suggest Janet Arnolds book "The cut of Clothes" its a great book with some history on 17th century techniques as well as patterns also included. The clothes shown are upper class but the pattern for puritan clothis would be the same just more subded colors as well as simple materials like wool and home spun linnen. Let me know if I can be of any more help, I worked for a seventeenth century site and I have several pattern from around 1590-1690 Good Luck, Charlie ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 6 Mar 1996 10:26:39 -0500 From: DRGNFTR@aol.com Subject: Fwd: breastplate cover - --------------------- Forwarded message: Subj: Re: breastplate cover Date: 96-03-06 10:07:13 EST From: DRGNFTR To: Gaelscot Hi Gail and Scot, Just to let you know I've been working with armor for around 16years at living history sites and I also Jousted for 6 years with renicencee festivals, and what your describing sounds something like a tabord worn mainly in joust to identify knights in tournaments, I don't think I've ever heard of something like it being worn in actual combat however knights did ware sometime field sighns witch could be as simple as a colord piece of ribbon tied around the arm. In the fifteenth century armor still was pretty elaborate (see for example German Gothic Armor of the period) however by the late 16th century it had simplified somewhat due to the increase use of muskets. Also your husband may already know this but there is a substantial difference between field (or combat armor) and tilting armor(Joust). Let me know if I can be of any more help, Charlie ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 6 Mar 1996 12:43:30 -0600 (CST) From: Teresa Shannon Subject: Re: Fwd: breastplate cover I do not know what relevance this is? Since I needed to write an addendum, I may as well respond to this. What in the world is this reference about Ms. Gerjuoy? The original poster wanted to know if breastplates were covered with cloth as apparently shown in a 15th century painting/depiction of St. George in Spain. Someone responded with misleading information on the existance of covered breastplates, and I responded presenting citations and correcting the source. This is not a discussion on heraldic garments (which, by the way there are more than the Black Prince's Jupon which have survived) nor whether there is proof for the existence of heraldic garments. Please do not confuse issues or we won't get anywhere in this discussion. Now the addendum to my earlier post. All the examples of covered breastplates I know of are 14th century. (Not a surprise, I only study 14th century) However, the New York Met has an example of a covered Breastplate as does the Tower of London. These are leather-covered, but after some consultation there are several surviving examples of breastplates that had been covered in satin, velvet or other sumptuous cloth. Claude Blair's book on European Arms and Armor is pretty much the basis by which other armor books have come to be judged by (i.e. good scholarship, don't ever make the mistake that Stone is a good source on european armor, he isn't) and I think covered breastplates are mentioned. Stone probably mentions them too. Poor quality simple armor does occur in the 16th century as "poor grade munitions armor" NOT something nobles wore. So yes covered breastplates are easily documentable. In the fourteenth century, I don't know about the 15th century but its possible that either iconography of the subject matter or Spains military "backwardness" could explain the 15th century reference. Teresa On Wed, 6 Mar 1996, Judy Gerjuoy wrote: > From: Judy Gerjuoy > There are lots and lots of examples of heraldic clothing - clothing that > bears the owner's heraldry (coat of arms) in period manuscripts, > tapestries, stained glass, effigies, pictures, embroideries, etc. > And, there is *one* piece of extent heraldic clothing*** that I know of - > the jupon of the Black Prince, which has the arms of England with a label > (showing he is the heir). > While one piece of extent clothing does not conclusively prove usage, > that combined with the other evidence implies to me that it was probably > used. > *** Well, OK, there is also a 14th century German hairnet decorated with > little shields of assorted pieces of armory. > Jaelle ------------------------------ End of H-Costume Digest V4 #52 ****************************** A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to subscribe to that instead, send the command lines: unsubscribe h-costume-digest subscribe h-costume end in the body of a message to majordomo@lunch.engr.sgi.com. Thanks and enjoy the list!