From: owner-h-costume-digest (H-Costume Digest) To: h-costume-digest@lunch.engr.sgi.com Subject: H-Costume Digest V4 #53 Reply-To: h-costume Sender: owner-h-costume-digest@lunch.engr.sgi.com Errors-To: owner-h-costume-digest@lunch.engr.sgi.com Precedence: bulk H-Costume Digest Wednesday, March 6 1996 Volume 4, Number 53 Compilation copyright (C) 1996 Diane Barlow Close and Gretchen Miller Use in whole prohibited. Individual articles are the property of the author. Seek permission from that author before reprinting or quoting elsewhere. Important Addresses: Send submissions to: h-costume@lunch.engr.sgi.com (or reply to this message). Adds/drops/archives: majordomo@lunch.engr.sgi.com Real, live person: h-costume-request@andrew.cmu.edu Topics: Knights Templar Uniform Re: Knights Templar or... Knights of something or other Re: Fwd: breastplate cover Re: Fwd: breastplate cover Costume Society of America Tour Re: Armor Re: Washing Linen JAPANESE CLOTHING Re: Washing Linen Ancient Egyptian Fabric Printing Re: H-Costume Digest V4 #52 Short hair for women? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 6 Mar 1996 07:42:40 -0800 (PST) From: Elaine Pedersen Subject: Knights Templar Uniform With regard to the current discussion on Knights Templar Uniforms, are the current 1990s uniforms the same as those worn in the 19th century, and did the uniforms vary by region of the country? I am studying procession dress (parades, funerals, etc.) in the west in the 19th century and that is one of the groups in which I am interested. Thanks, Elaine - - - - - - - - - - - - Elaine L. Pedersen pedersee@ucs.orst.edu - - - - - - - - - - - - ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 06 Mar 1996 16:04:31 GMT From: db-cos@westmore.demon.co.uk (David Brewer) Subject: Re: Knights Templar or... In message <9603061421.AA16097@dayton.wright.edu> Joe Marfice writes: > > The uniforms of these two groups seem very similar, but not identical, > according to the descriptions. The Maltese Cross is associated with the > Knights Templar, however; I have never seen it's use in a K of C setting. I know nothing about modern "Knights Templar", but AFAIK the "Maltese Cross" (in white on black) is symbolic (still, after eight centuries) of the Knight of the Hospital of St. John in Jerusalem (Knights Hospitalar or -of St. John), who were beaten back to Malta via Cypress and Rhodes. The same cross (in black on white) was used by the Teutonic Order. The (original) Templars used a "cross patee" (in red on white). Of the Knight of Columbus, or Columbus I know nothing, however... (Not serious bit) ...when the Templars were supressed their fleet was never found, it just sailed away. Cortes was a "Knight of Christ", the Spanish sucessor group to the Templars. He was received as a god by the Aztecs because of the cross painted of his sails... the Templar cross. Fnord. The skull and crossed thigh bones (of the Jolly Roger) is another Templar symbol. The Masons say they are "brothers to pirates". Fnord. - -- David Brewer ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 6 Mar 1996 08:46:20 -0800 (PST) From: Elizabeth Fox Subject: Knights of something or other I grew up in a Masonic household (grandfather was a Scottish Rite Mason) but had never heard of the Knights Templar as a modern thing. Thanks for all this info! Elizabeth ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 6 Mar 1996 11:27:07 -0600 (CST) From: Teresa Shannon Subject: Re: Fwd: breastplate cover To the original requester of this information (Gaol Scott?): Please note this isn't my area of "expertise" but I should like to add somethings of note. First, what is Spanish in the middle ages is not representative of England, France, Germany, and Italy. Spain did have a unique culture (see Moorish culture). They didn't even have tournaments until the 14th century!!! Anyway that is one thing to consider. However, I am familiar with the practice of covering one's breastplate in costly fabric, and we are not talking about a tabard or surcote. It was not completely unusual for the uppercrust of the nobility in the fourteenth and fifteenth century to do this. I believe I have seen breastplates that have survived with bits of the fabric still held by the rivets (this is really reaching back in the memory, though). But you don't have to take my word for it. I was reading Froissart's Chronicles for the fourth or fifth time (just the penguin transl excerpts) and happened on a description of Poitiers that may have mentioned some of the french nobility in covered breastplates. I also seem to remember mention of velvet covering armor in Richard II's wardrobe accounts, but again cannot be sure. Now these are strictly 14th century examples. So there is reason to believe that the very few people who wore them did take them into battle, and probably in tournament as well. You can tell your husband he isn't crazy, I am familiar with the reference. I am also quite surpised at the statement of plain armor in the 16th century. The German "gobs of fluting" is 16th century, Tudor and Elizabethan armor was elaborate and 16th century, the spanish 16th century armor was very fancy. It may not have been of as much use as the fourteenth century (plain clean lines in armor) but it was still there and much time was lavished on it. They were still holding formal jousts in the 16th century, and I should like to reference the Field of the Cloth of Gold for armor and clothing as examples of great extravagance. In fact, only in the fifteenth century and after do we get elaborate heavily decorated armor (mail doesn't take too well to decoration although you can do something with it, and brigandines were always that inbetween composite for the classes that couldn't afford plate in the 14th c.). If statments like this are being offered I would request the person below to include citations and documentation to back it up, at least tell people where to go to see examples since this runs counter to my concept of general historical knowledge of the period. It is my experience with photos and research of actual equipment and clothing and armor of the period that the below statment may be very misleading and possibly incorrect at several points. Such texts as "The Tudor and Jacobean Tournament," (I have other books but the titles are so general they would be misleading if I wrote them incorrectly, things like the Knight in Medieval Europe; Arms and Armor etc. so I will resist) do provide pictures of surviving armor from the time. If you can get a picture catalog of the Wallace Collection's Armor do so. Or if you have one isn't the collection wonderful? Teresa > > Just to let you know I've been working with armor for around > 16years at living history sites and I also Jousted for 6 years with > renicencee festivals, and what your describing sounds something like a tabord > worn mainly in joust to identify knights in tournaments, I don't think I've > ever heard of something like it being worn in actual combat however knights > did ware sometime field sighns witch could be as simple as a colord piece of > ribbon tied around the arm. In the fifteenth century armor still was pretty > elaborate (see for example German Gothic Armor of the period) however by the > late 16th century it had simplified somewhat due to the increase use of > muskets. Also your husband may already know this but there is a substantial > difference between field (or combat armor) and tilting armor(Joust). > > Let me know if I can be of any > more help, > Charlie > ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 6 Mar 1996 12:51:30 -0500 (EST) From: Judy Gerjuoy Subject: Re: Fwd: breastplate cover There are lots and lots of examples of heraldic clothing - clothing that bears the owner's heraldry (coat of arms) in period manuscripts, tapestries, stained glass, effigies, pictures, embroideries, etc. And, there is *one* piece of extent heraldic clothing*** that I know of - the jupon of the Black Prince, which has the arms of England with a label (showing he is the heir). While one piece of extent clothing does not conclusively prove usage, that combined with the other evidence implies to me that it was probably used. *** Well, OK, there is also a 14th century German hairnet decorated with little shields of assorted pieces of armory. Jaelle jaelle@access.digex.net If the world were merely seductive, that would be easy. If it were merely challenging, that would be no problem. But I arise in the morning torn between a desire to improve the world, and a desire to enjoy the world. This makes it hard to plan the day. - E. B. White ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 6 Mar 96 08:47 EST From: Liz Ackert Subject: Costume Society of America Tour This message is being cross-posted to Historic Costume, Va-Hist and Museum-L for a colleague who does not have Internet access. Please excuse any duplication. _________________________________ Join the Costume Society of America, Region VI for a Virginia weekend in the spring, April 19, 20 and 21, 1996. The study weekend is an inter-disciplinary tour of costume, decorative arts, architecture, gardens and history in Richmond, Fredricksburg, and Northern Virginia. For more information contact: Loreen Finkelstein, CSA Study Tour Coordinator, 804-220-7077 at the Colonial Williamsburg Foundation, Department of Conservation or Janea Whitacre, 804-566-4824 (evenings). The tour is limited to 40 participants. Tour includes: Museums, historic houses, gardens - Valentine Museum The Wickham House The John Marshall House; first Chief Justice of Supreme Court The Museum of the Confederacy The White House of the Confederacy Kenmore The James Monroe Museum and Memorial Library Stratford Hall Plantation Mount Vernon Lectures - Mr. John Pearce, Director, James Monroe Museum Joyce Wellford, Director, Collections and Historic Preservation, Stratford Hall Plantation Accomodation - Jefferson Hotel cottages at the Stratford Hall Plantation two breakfast, two-three box lunches, and two dinners antique shopping and Ingleside Winery bus transportation thoughout the weekend ________________________________ >>:> >>:> >>:> >>:> >>:> >>:> >>:> >>:> >>:> >>:> >>:> >>:> >>:> >>:> Liz Ackert (eackert@widomaker.com) >>:> >>:> Public Services Librarian >>:> >>:> Colonial Williamsburg Foundation Library >>:> >>:> P.O. Box 1776 / 415 North Boundary Street >>:> >>:> Williamsburg, VA 23187-1776 >>:> >>:> Phone (804) 220-7419 Fax (804) 221-8902 >>:> >>:> >>:> >>:> >>:> >>:> >>:> >>:> >>:> >>:> >>:> >>:> >>:> >>:> >>:> >>:> >>:> "That the future may learn from the past." >>:> >>:> >>:> >>:> >>:> >>:> >>:> >>:> >>:> >>:> >>:> >>:> >>:> >>:> ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 6 Mar 1996 13:37:09 -0500 From: DRGNFTR@aol.com Subject: Re: Armor if I led any one astray earlier with my comment on armor, its very true that alot of armor that survives from this period is extreamly ornate, such as the 16 century armor of Henry theVII in the tower. What I was refering to in my writing was mainly munition grade armor, which from all of my sorces tends to be pretty mundane in design. Most of the armor that we see in pictures seems elaborate, but I think if you will investigate you will find that this armor usually belong to some one of high means ( a good example is the Lion Gilt Armor of Austria recently shown at the Smithsonian.) and that the armor of common soldiers was simple and usually painted black to prevent rust. Existing example of these peices are currently at the Tower of London. The painting St. George and the Dragon( whitch a lot of version exist by different artist) shows usually a Knight in extreamly elaborate armor. I would also like to agree with the comments of Teresa she was right in all she said , However I think you will find as I said earlier that if you check the background of the armor it usually belonged to someone of High means. Thanks and Sorry, Charlie ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 6 Mar 96 9:55:55 PST From: Mirabelle Severn & Thames Subject: Re: Washing Linen (Pardon me if I got these attributions wrong.) Regina wrote: >>It seems to me that washing it [linen] would ... >>yield a softer and more sublte product. Is this advisable? What can I >>expect to happen...besides endless wrinkles? I have been told by some that >>the linen would wrinkle so badly that it would, perhaps, never be able to >>be pressed out. Lezlie wrote: >Regina, >The linen will become softer and wrinkle after washing. I'm not sure if >you'll be able to get all the wrinkles out, but you'll be adding wrinkles as >you wear it anyway. I think it just adds character to the finished piece. The linen will also shrink a fair amount. I think linen is the one you have to wash and dry two or three times to make sure it has shrunk all it's going to - can someone else confirm or refute that? I've never heard of wrinkled linen that couldn't be pressed smooth by using a hot iron while the linen is still damp. My mom used to spritz the linen clothes with water at the start of the ironing session, roll them up into a sausage shape, do the rest of the ironing, then iron the linens last. I don't know whether rolling them up damp was supposed to let the dampness soak in more evenly, or the rolling was supposed to start the smoothing process, or whether rolling them just made them smaller while she ironed the rest of the stuff, or what. It might even have been left over from the days when she had to heat the iron on the stove. Oh, and iron the wrong side if you don't want the right side to get too shiny too fast. Naomi Brokaw from California's central coast ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 06 Mar 96 11:01:24 PST From: michael.di.matteo@autodesk.com Subject: JAPANESE CLOTHING Please forgive me for asking more than one question, but I thought it better than posting 3 separate ones. (1) I know that this list mainly deals w/European & Early American costuming, but does any one know where I can locate a board or list that deals w/Japanese costuming. (2) Also looking for any books that might have pictures or very good drawings of Kimono, Yukata, Hakama or other Japanese style clothing. (3) Would also like to connect with makers of these types of clothing for support and guidance. You may either e-mail me direct michael.di.matteo@autodesk.com or post to this board if you feel the answers might be of interest to others. Domo arigato Mike Di Matteo P.O. Box 4252 San Rafael. Ca. 94913-4252 ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 6 Mar 1996 14:11:11 -0500 From: Kevin Richard-Morrow Subject: Re: Washing Linen At 09:55 AM 3/6/96 PST, you wrote: >The linen will also shrink a fair amount. I think linen is >the one you have to wash and dry two or three times to make >sure it has shrunk all it's going to - can someone else >confirm or refute that? > We have several items (18th century repros) made from various weights of linen and I have not experianced srinkage after the first wash. We wash our linen clothes in cold water. This may depend on the weave. Kevin Richard-Morrow ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 6 Mar 1996 11:27:10 -0800 From: atripp@sfu.ca (Allyson Tripp Rozell) Subject: Ancient Egyptian I do not recall who was asking about sources for Ancient Egyptian, but I happened to notice a book in the library this morning that he/she might find useful. "Ancient Egyptian, Mesopotamian & Persian Costume" 2nd edition, by Mary G. Houston, pub. Barnes & Noble, published 1920, 2nd ed. 1954, reprint 1964. Apparently the first volume in a series, "A Technical History of Costume" I have no idea how accurate the book is, perhaps someone on the list is familiar with the author's work. It gives pattern dimensions, and shows draping techniques, includes headdress and jewelry. Allyson Tripp Rozell atripp@sfu.ca ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 6 Mar 1996 13:30:19 -0600 From: recon36@server.iadfw.net (Ed Walton) Subject: Fabric Printing I've been fooling around with cloning various WW1 and WW2 reenactor uniforms for the last several months, and now I want to see about getting some obsolete WW2 camouflage patterns printed. I understand machine printing as it relates to publications and I understand silkscreened T-shirt logos, but that's about it. In other words; I ain't got a clue. If anyone can refer me to a book that covers the process or can offer any advice, I'd really appreciate it. Thanks, Ed Walton Ed Walton "Lost Battalions" Historical Uniform Reproductions http://web2.airmail.net/recon36 ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 6 Mar 1996 14:40:58 -0500 From: Hprodite@aol.com Subject: Re: H-Costume Digest V4 #52 I too am new to this list and appreciate all the information that is offered. I am also new to sewing and am still developing a feel for materials and their construction. My question is this: I am searching for books with detailed patterns of doric and ionic chitons primarily from 3rd or 4th B.C. I realize the garments are quite simplistic and all the books I have further that image.. I want to recreate more elaborate chitons and am in a quandary trying to find examples.. I am also wanting to recreate the leather cuirass that Atremis wore. Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated. all my graces, your avid recipeint of this list Tristan Hprodite@aol.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 6 Mar 1996 14:36:59 EST From: "laura yungblut" Subject: Short hair for women? Greetings from a long-time lurker! I teach Medieval History (among other things) and a student asked me if I knew of any periods or places where women wore their hair short -- that short hair was the fashion, not an aberration. I told her that nuns throughout the centuries before our own shaved their heads and that women would sometimes cut their hair for medical reasons, but that I knew of no examples before the early 20th century of short hair as a *fashion* for women. Does anyone know of any examples/references? Thanks in advance-- Laura Yungblut Univ. of Dayton yungblut@checkov.hm.udayton.edu ********************************************************************** The hottest places in hell are reserved for those who, in a period of moral crisis, maintain their neutrality. Nemo me impune lacessit. Veni, vidi, visa. Get a room. Barney is the Antichrist. Miao. ********************************************************************** ------------------------------ End of H-Costume Digest V4 #53 ****************************** A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to subscribe to that instead, send the command lines: unsubscribe h-costume-digest subscribe h-costume end in the body of a message to majordomo@lunch.engr.sgi.com. Thanks and enjoy the list!