From: owner-h-costume-digest (H-Costume Digest) To: h-costume-digest@lunch.engr.sgi.com Subject: H-Costume Digest V4 #55 Reply-To: h-costume Sender: owner-h-costume-digest@lunch.engr.sgi.com Errors-To: owner-h-costume-digest@lunch.engr.sgi.com Precedence: bulk H-Costume Digest Thursday, March 7 1996 Volume 4, Number 55 Compilation copyright (C) 1996 Diane Barlow Close and Gretchen Miller Use in whole prohibited. Individual articles are the property of the author. Seek permission from that author before reprinting or quoting elsewhere. Important Addresses: Send submissions to: h-costume@lunch.engr.sgi.com (or reply to this message). Adds/drops/archives: majordomo@lunch.engr.sgi.com Real, live person: h-costume-request@andrew.cmu.edu Topics: Costume exhibit catalog Ren fair costumes Re: Short hair for women? RenFaires Re: Knights Templar or.../ Armor gloves and gaiters RE: bosom fashions (was RenFaires) Empress Elisabeth Re: Ren fair costumes re: Washing Linen Wallets and Pocketbooks? Where did the man's tie come from? Re: Egyption clothing ideas Costume Web Page At Last Where ties come from.... Re: Wallets and Pocketbooks? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 6 Mar 1996 22:53:47 -0800 (PST) From: Allan Terry Subject: Costume exhibit catalog A friend's inquiry just reminded me to post this message. If anyone is interested in buying the costume exhibit catalog _From the Waltz to the Tango: Fashion in Bohemia Volume 2, 1870-1914_, you can get it very easily from the Museum of Decorative Arts in Prague. Their address is: Kunstgewerbe Museum Ulice 17, Listopadu 2 110 01 Praha 1 Czech Republic I wrote to them in English. They promptly (given surface mail time) sent the catalog and an invoice arrived a couple days later, to be paid in dollars. They charged $26 for the catalog and shipping together--not unreasonable as foreign catalogs go. The catalog focuses on women's clothes, with some dance clothes and pictures, but really doesn't say much about dance. Most of the illustrations are black-and-white period engravings. A few are color photos of surviving clothes. The language is a rather charming translation by someone not entirely fluent in English. My favorite rendering is the title of a tailoring magazine as "The Golden Bottom." According to my husband, who speaks some Russian, this is a literal translation from a proverbial expression; the title means something more like "The Tailor's Gold Mine." The museum says volume 1, which covers fashion from 1780 to 1870, is entirely sold out but they can sell a xerox for approximately $12. They plan an exhibit on Czech fashion from 1914 to 1939 from October through December 1996, and this will be accompanied by another book. Also, they are negotiating with the Prague publisher Olympia to edit a seven-volume history of Czech fashion. Fran Grimble ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 6 Mar 1996 23:11:39 -0800 (PST) From: Elizabeth Fox Subject: Ren fair costumes The costumes Fran Grimble describes for Ren Faire are very familiar to me. And I agree with the original poster about the incredible breastworks on some of the participants. I've done fairs for years yet realize I don't know much about what authentic peasant dress would be like. Partly it's because there aren't many paintings of the peasantry, as there are of the nobles. Anyway, I'm curious if you or anyone could describe a prototypical peasant costume that might be more accurate than the ones that have become the standards. Elizabeth Who is looking for HTML or tech writing work in the Bay Area ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 6 Mar 1996 23:29:31 -0800 (PST) From: Heather Rose Jones Subject: Re: Short hair for women? On Wed, 6 Mar 1996, laura yungblut wrote: > Greetings from a long-time lurker! I teach Medieval History (among > other things) and a student asked me if I knew of any periods or > places where women wore their hair short -- that short hair was the > fashion, not an aberration. I told her that nuns throughout the > centuries before our own shaved their heads and that women would > sometimes cut their hair for medical reasons, but that I knew of no > examples before the early 20th century of short hair as a *fashion* > for women. Does anyone know of any examples/references? I know of one reference. Giraldus Cambrensis, in his late 12th century "Description of Wales" says of the Welsh people of his day, "Both the men and the women cut their hair short and shape it round their ears and eyes." (He said it in Latin, of course.) I know of no contemporary pictorial sources that would confirm or contradict this statement, but Giraldus was a first-hand observer and seems to be generally reliable in this sort of observation. Heather Rose Jones ------------------------------ Date: 07 Mar 96 09:57:00 GMT From: Mrs C S Yeldham Subject: RenFaires As someone involved in Living History (in England, 16th century) I am at least as obsessive about accuracy as the worst of SCA, if not more so! I thought Jennifer was asking a question (OK fairly bluntly), and I shall take her at her word and answer it (below)! Part of the point of Jennifer's mailing was that they had done so much work, and still got the neckline wrong. The neckline sounds physiologically impossible (above the collarbone!) and positively dangerous! I've said this before (and I will probably say it again) - we are involved in a hobby/profession which the general public tends to ridicule anyway - it is my opinion that we have a responsibility to each other not to encourage that ridicule! The general public doesn't know the difference between RenFaire, SCA or Living History (or any of the other definitions), so we all get tarred with the same brush when people do stupid things. If they did want to display their charms, they had two alternatives which spring to mind from the 16th century. Firstly, there are several wood cuts of women in taverns, generally believed to be prostitutes ('The Elizabethan Underworld' by Salgado includes them). These show necklines below the breasts, showing the nipples, with ruffs running under the breasts, as if on a platter. The rest of the bodice looks normal. This is what I would call 'tits on a platter'. The breasts are in a normal position - armpit level or below. I've seen this role played in living history, and played a retired pro' myself (I'm 38) (not in this kind of outfit). It is not a role I would advise anyone to play in contact with the general public, certainly not a young girl - it is very difficult and you are liable to find yourself in a very awkward situation unless you are very good at handling men! I have met girls who thought it would be fun, but it doesn't last long, the great British male public soon disabused them of that idea! The second alternative is very high gentry from the late 16th and early 17th century. Anne of Denmark (James I's wife) shows this fashion in her pictures. The neckline is low, almost mid-torso and so are the breasts, but it appears to be a 'monobosom' effect - no cleavage! The ruff is worn above the bosom, or framing it, around the back of the neck and down the to edges of the square neckline. I have worn this, and you certainly get a reaction, but the rest of the clothes are very high (I wore it with an embroidered jacket with gold spangles) and it is easy to control the reaction! In either case I would expect a high-necked smock or a partlett (either black and solid or white and transparent) to be commonly worn with the bodice. Sunburn there is not a pleasure, and white skin was prized! BTW, can I be pedantic here. The term 'peasant' for 16th century England was not used in period, and is not an appropriate term for the condition of working people. It implies a legal relationship to the land which did not exist then (a peasant is 'tied' to the land in some way). The period term is 'lower orders' ie it defines working people in relation to the 'higher' or 'middle orders'. To return to clothes .. The 'Wedding at Bermondsey', painted in 1569, shows a wide range of social classes, and is the best example of non-gentry clothing I can think of, apart from Breugel's pictures - which are Flemish from the 1550s. I don't know the painter of the 'Wedding at Bermondsey' but the original is at Hatfield House, if thats any help - it does turn up in a lot of costume books. Breugel is wonderful - he shows all the seams! Talking about leather jerkins - I'm happy in principle, but saddle leather sounds a bit heavy (except for blacksmiths?!) and 'Celtic' knotwork is right out - BTW I'm told that what is thought of as Celtic knotwork isn't, its properly named Hiberno-Saxon, being a fusion of British/Irish motifs with Germanic ones. The Germanic contribution is the interlace/knotwork pattern, the British/Irish being the spiral work, the fusion occurring around 650 CE onwards. Caroline Whose motif in the kitchen is 'getting it right is easier'! ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 07 Mar 1996 09:35:23 -0500 From: Joe Marfice Subject: Re: Knights Templar or.../ Armor On Wed, 06 Mar 1996, db-cos@westmore.demon.co.uk (David Brewer) wrote: [....] >I know nothing about modern "Knights Templar", but AFAIK the >"Maltese Cross" (in white on black) is symbolic (still, after >eight centuries) of the Knight of the Hospital of St. John in >Jerusalem (Knights Hospitalar or -of St. John), [....] Ah, ma fou! Thank you, David; of course you're right. It is the curse of my mind to retain every detail I hear...except the ones that tie the bits together. On Wed, 6 Mar 1996 Charlie (DRGNFTR@aol.com) wrote: >[....] and that the armor of common soldiers was simple and >usually painted black to prevent rust. Existing example of these peices >are currently at the Tower of London. [....] In all the examples I am familiar with, the "black paint" was actually blackening--either by imbedding carbon in the metal surface, as when one "seasons" a cast iron skillet, or by heat treating in an oxygen-poor environment to "blue" or "brown" steel (a kind of highly-stable rust). If you have sources which describe true painting, please let me know. The only examples of painted armor of which I am aware are the heraldically-decorated heaumes of XIVth & XVth-C Germany, to which Jaelle/Judy Gerjuoy referred earlier. I do not even know of a quick-drying paint which was waterproof, in this age. >[....] However I think >you will find as I said earlier that if you check the background of the >armor it usually belonged to someone of High means. [....] So, Gael, is your husband attempting something highbrow? Emulating a knigget, perhaps? Or just another plebe squire, eaking out his existence and dodging the arwes as best he can? Since he sounds as if he is emulating the well-to-do, does he have servants, squires, and power tools enough to keep it spiffed? | Broom, at The Lady Perrine | aka Joe Marfice | Ministerium honor est. \|/ which means "I tot I taw a tilk moire' tabby weave!" /|\ 513-222-2330 233 Perrine Street //|\\ af289@dayton.wright.edu Dayton (my fayre citee), OH 45410 ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 07 Mar 1996 08:43:13 -0600 From: Jan Rosenthal Subject: gloves and gaiters Does anyone know what kind of gloves ladies would have worn at the turn of the century for informal activities, e.g. walking, boating, picnicking, etc.? What would they have been made of? Would knitted ones have been acceptable, perhaps of fine cotton? Also, what kind of fabric would gaiters have been made of? I assume something fairly stiff? Thanks for any and all help! :-) JR jan.rosenthal@metc.state.mn.us "Whatever diminishes the sense of superiority in men makes them more manly, brotherly, and pleasant to have about." Frances Willard, 1895 ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 7 Mar 1996 9:37:32 -0600 (CST) From: Deb Subject: RE: bosom fashions (was RenFaires) Regarding fashions in bosoms: I can't exactly recall the book's title, and can't find any references to it here at work, but it goes something like: Engravings of French Fashion From Le Gallery de Mode (?) Anyway, it covers the time period from 1777 or so, till 1795 or so. There is at least one plate in which the normal "deep scoop" or "deep square" neckline gets a little deeper yet, and the nipples are clearly shown. HOWEVER: this is meant to be fashion advertising. How many people have you ever seen who actually WEAR the stuff from the high fashion coutoure shows in Paris??? I do not know if real live people actually wore this fashion! <============================================================> < Deb Baddorf baddorf@fnal.gov Costumer, RevWar re-enactor ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 07 Mar 96 10:42:19 -0500 From: "Augusta, Karen" Subject: Empress Elisabeth - -- [ From: Augusta, Karen * EMC.Ver #2.5.02 ] -- I am doing some research on Elisabeth of Bavaria, Empress of Austria, Queen of Hungary (1837-1898). I am interested to know of the whereabouts of any of her personal clothing or of any lace owned by the Empress or Emperor Franz Joseph (which museums in Vienna or Hungary?etc.). In a Fortune magazine printed in the 1930's I read that FJ had quite a lace collection - but I have found no corroboration of this in any of the biographies I have read on either monarch, and it does seem to contradict the historical portrait of FJ as a frugal, austere man. I'm hoping someone on this list might have visited a museum in Austria or Hungary and seen some of her/their personal effects (and can furnish me with addresses, etc.). One last question, anyone out there know of any good historical biographies on either monarch? Their lives were full of tragedy and scandal and I bet there's some great reading out there (other than the dry stuff I've been reading!).....Thanks for any help that comes my way. Please email me privately. Karen oldlace@sover.net ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 7 Mar 1996 08:03:37 -0800 (PST) From: Margaret Griffith Subject: Re: Ren fair costumes > > I've done fairs for years yet realize I don't know much about what > authentic peasant dress would be like. Partly it's because there aren't > many paintings of the peasantry, as there are of the nobles. > > Anyway, I'm curious if you or anyone could describe a prototypical > peasant costume that might be more accurate than the ones that have > become the standards. > One pretty good source for at least Northern European, late renaissance peasant costuming is the paintings of Peter Breugal Senior, available in the art section of most libraries. He did a lot of paintings of peasant weddings, peasant festivals (such as Lenten festivals), etc. The women in his paintings tend to wear white shirts, ankle length colored skirts (reds and blues seemed popular), and waist length jackets with close but not tightly fitted sleeves. Most of the women are shown with aprons and coifs. The men and boys are shown wearing white shirts, waist length jackets, and what look like close fitting pants (footless hose? it's hard to tell) with thick boots or shoes. There are various hats on the men which I can't begin to describe. Hope this helps, Meg Penrose ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 7 Mar 96 08:30:23 MST From: mgriggs@shepards.com Subject: re: Washing Linen Chelsea Hoffmann This sounds soooo comfortable! Where can I find info for making one? Lyssa - ----------------------------------------- Lady Leofsige O Caoimh mgriggs@shepards.com Lyssa@kktv.com http://www.usa.net/~norseman/dragon.html - ----------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 7 Mar 1996 09:18:26 -0700 (MST) From: cwood@primenet.com Subject: Wallets and Pocketbooks? Does anyone know what men in the late 19th century would have carried their money in, both coin and paper? Wallets like we do? Bigger or smaller? And any ideas as to where they would have carried these wallets, particularly if they were Army officers whose uniform blouse did not include an inside pocket? Thanks. Ysabeau ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 06 Mar 1996 02:59:26 EST From: CSRT29A@prodigy.com (MR A R CRAIG) Subject: Where did the man's tie come from? Hello folks: I've trying to locate information on where tie's come from. Can anyone tell me? I'd be especially interested in knowing where in current literature I might find some information on this. Any help would be appreciated. Because I am not part of this news-group, please E-Mail me in private at: csrt29a@prodigy.com Thanks, A. Craig. Upper Marlboro, Maryland. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 7 Mar 1996 13:18:04 -0500 From: Saralyon@aol.com Subject: Re: Egyption clothing ideas wn a computer so I must drive over to my mother's to use hers [pitiful I know] & I'm just now reading a weeks worth of dijests. I might have some insights on creating Egyptian garments. Remember, we really don't know exactly what they wore in ancient Egypt as no specimens survive & the stylization of Egyptian art makes it difficult to interpret just what's going on. I think the cloths were softer and more flowy than tomb paintings depict. As w/ Greek clothing, most pattern pieces were probably square, rectangular, or circular. The thrust was not on cut but fabric and its decoration. This can be seen in African clothing today. I would try draping the shapes you want in a light cotton/linen. If you must pleat something, use a primative pleating method. Here's one: Take a length of linen [make sure it's real] larger than your pattern piece & fold it into accordian-like pleats the size you want. With twine, tie around the now bulky mass of pleated up stuff to hold the pleats in place. Be sure to tie the top & bottom & at about 1" intervals down the length of the bundle. Now emerse the whole thing in boiling water. Be sure it's wet all the way though. Hang it up.....still tied......to dry w/ a weight tied to the bottom. Be sure it's enough weight to keep the bundle taught When it's completely dry, [probably the next day] undo it & see what you get. You should get soft, not too even but accurate to the period pleats. Also, as w/ all clothing before the sewing machine, there are as few seams as possible. Remenber this as you drape. If you would like to see some costumes I think really capture the flavor of what these anchient people wore, check out some of the TNT "Old Testament" miniseries. The dramas are awful but the clothes are wonderful. I remember in the one on Joseph, Potiphar's wife weres a open weave knitted shift that clings to the figure like in tomb paintings. Bona Fortuna! Gray Hunter ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 07 Mar 1996 01:51:04 -0500 From: annmarie carrier Subject: Costume Web Page At Last Hi everyone. Wanted to let you know I've gotten my page up at last. The address is: http:// www2.cybernex.net/~carrier/costumes.html - please check back often though, as I will be adding many resources and information regarding costuming. BTW, if anyone needs any info on the Costume Show in Chicago later this month, let me know. Also, you might be interested in checking out our consignment page too: http://www2.cybernex.net/~carrier/ht.html. Hope you can visit! Annmarie ------------------------------ Date: 07 Mar 96 13:37:44 EST From: "1Lt Derrick Stamos" Subject: Where ties come from.... Thailand of course! Sorry, couldn't resist this one.... ;) - -Derrick ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 7 Mar 1996 13:49:05 -0500 From: Kevin Richard-Morrow Subject: Re: Wallets and Pocketbooks? At 09:18 AM 3/7/96 -0700, you wrote: >Does anyone know what men in the late 19th century would have carried their >money in, both coin and paper? Wallets like we do? Bigger or smaller? And >any ideas as to where they would have carried these wallets, particularly if >they were Army officers whose uniform blouse did not include an inside pocket? > >Thanks. > >Ysabeau > > > I am afraid my reply will out of period, but only by a century(!). I know that men and women of the late 18th century, and through the Civil War, carried money and important papers in wallets. You can see photos of 18th century examples in Neumann and Kravic, COLLECTORS ILLUSTRATED ENCYLOPEDIA OF THE REVOLUTIONARY WAR and 18TH CENTURY CLOTHING AT WILLIAMSBURG and I recall at least one original at Fort Ticonderoga. The examples and illustrations of wallets from the War of 1812 and Civil War I have seen look very much the same. The size had changed slightly possibly due to a change in the size of paper money. About the mid 19th century the hinged snap top purse developed for coins. Tandy Leather used to sell, and may still, the hardware for these. One of the BOOK OF BUCKSKINING series (vol. 2, I think) had patterns for 18th and early 19th century wallets and purses. I have handled two early 20th century cadet jackets from West Point. They both had inside breast pockets that seemed suited to the task of carrying wallets or papers. I am sorry I don't have primary sources on the 19th century (the 18th is my "gig") but try contacting; The Company of Military Historians North Main Street Westbrook, CT 06498 These folks are THE source for info on military minutia from all periods. Kevin Richard-Morrow ------------------------------ End of H-Costume Digest V4 #55 ****************************** A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to subscribe to that instead, send the command lines: unsubscribe h-costume-digest subscribe h-costume end in the body of a message to majordomo@lunch.engr.sgi.com. Thanks and enjoy the list!