From: owner-h-costume-digest (H-Costume Digest) To: h-costume-digest@lunch.engr.sgi.com Subject: H-Costume Digest V4 #56 Reply-To: h-costume Sender: owner-h-costume-digest@lunch.engr.sgi.com Errors-To: owner-h-costume-digest@lunch.engr.sgi.com Precedence: bulk H-Costume Digest Thursday, March 7 1996 Volume 4, Number 56 Compilation copyright (C) 1996 Diane Barlow Close and Gretchen Miller Use in whole prohibited. Individual articles are the property of the author. Seek permission from that author before reprinting or quoting elsewhere. Important Addresses: Send submissions to: h-costume@lunch.engr.sgi.com (or reply to this message). Adds/drops/archives: majordomo@lunch.engr.sgi.com Real, live person: h-costume-request@andrew.cmu.edu Topics: breastplates again Report--Dialogue on authenticity Egyptian pleated clothing Re: breastplates again Re: re: Washing Linen Re: Rennfaire costuming Re: bosom fashions (was RenFaires) Easter Bonnet Parade Re: Wallets and Pocketbooks? renfair costumes Re: breastplates again Re: Where did the man's tie come from? RE: Washing Linen Re: renfair costumes ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 7 Mar 1996 14:50:08 -0500 From: Gaelscot@aol.com Subject: breastplates again Thanks to all who replied to my husband's breastplate cover question. I guess I didn't make myself clear in the original post. The item in question is not a tabard or a piece of armor with fabric permanently affixed to it (which was sometimes even done with helmets!), but a fitted fabric cover exactly the shape of the curved breastplate and tied to it with numerous and extremely visible ties. There is even a slit just below one shoulder that opens for a buckle of some kind -- the painted folds around it show that it is indeed a fabric cover and not painted metal or leather, or some other rigid material. Plus there is the aforementioned matching (attached?) cape. We'd appreciate any information on this garment. Thanks again. Gail (for Scott) Finke/gaelscot@aol.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 7 Mar 1996 11:18:32 -0800 (PST) From: Elaine Pedersen Subject: Report--Dialogue on authenticity I subscribed to this mailing list in the spring of 1994, and in the fall of that year a dialogue on authenticity caught my personal and academic interest. I contacted discussants for their permission and then analyzed the comments of that discussion. I promised to share my findings. Many months later following a presentation of the above at the Costume Society of America meeting in Dearborn, Mich. last June and an absence from this list for too many months--here is an abstract of that presentation. I would still welcome receiving comments on this subject as it continues to interest me. Please feel welcome to send me comments: pedersee@ucs.orst.edu DRESSING FOR AN AUDIENCE: DIALOGUE ON AUTHENTICITY Individuals involved in reproducing historic clothing come from varied backgrounds and may be professionals or amateurs. A dialogue on the H-Costume electronic mailing list (July 19 to September 28, 1994) demonstrated that not all individuals reproducing "authentic" historic dress share the same definition of authentic. The purpose of this paper is to explore the concept of "authentic" reproduction through evaluation of comments generated by 30 practitioners communicating on the H-Costume electronic mailing list. A content analysis was conducted on the data of 64 total postings. Five basic types of groups wearing "authentic" dress were discussed. The types are based on the groups' audience and expectations with regard to authenticity: 1. participant audience and dress is not accurate; 2. participant audience, accurate dress; 3. public audience, inaccurate dress; 4. public audience, dress of varying accuracy; and 5. public audience, very accurate dress. Although all individuals expressed interest in authentic historic costume, their definitions of acceptability ranged from totally authentic to not very authentic. Totally authentic was discussed as complete accuracy of garment style, construction, and materials from undergarments to outer garments. Those dressed as "totally authentic" try to be as accurate as possible with the understanding that totally authentic reproduction is not completely possible. Modern fibers, yarn, and cloth are different from that made earilier, especially prior to the Industrial Revolution. In addition, for those involved in potentially dangerous activities, such as "historical" battles, contemporary safety concerns are an issue, for example, helmets, gloves, and armguards are worn when needed for protection. They are disguised or designed to appear authentic. Towards the middle of the "authentic" continuum one finds individuals who may wear an accurate historic outergarment with modern undergarments or a garment which has correct style lines but the fiber content, weave structure, and color of the fabrics are not accurate. Individuals who are interested in "costume," but not "authentic" dress are at the end of the continuum. For the discussants the concept of "acceptably authentic" appears to vary by occasion and the individuals involved. Totally authentic (given available resources and knowledge) is considered critical when there is an audience who has paid to see authentic historic clothing and/or when the function of the event is educational. Many respondents felt that historical accuracy would continue to improve over time as new research findings appeared and individuals became more educated. While there were individuals who were very vocal on the "unacceptably authentic" dressers, most felt that with gentle encourage ment and education there would be both a willingness and an ability to create "acceptably authentic" clothing. The discussion also considered comfort and influences on the variations in authenticity. - - - - - - - - - - - - Elaine L. Pedersen pedersee@ucs.orst.edu - - - - - - - - - - - - ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 7 Mar 1996 15:22:14 -0500 From: mhamilto@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (Marsha Hamilton) Subject: Egyptian pleated clothing >Remember, we really don't know exactly what they wore in ancient Egypt as no >specimens survive ....... A photograph of an ancient Egyptian pleated linen shirt is in "Women's Work," a book which has been discussed recently on the list. Your description for pleating could possibly have been the technique used for this piece. Maybe my memory is going but when I was in the Egyptian Museum in Cairo in 1980, I could have sworn I saw some garment fragments in the King Tut Wing. I remember one shirt that was square, like a straight length of fabric folded over with a circle cut for the neck and the edges seamed for the sides. It was a very simple cut but the incredible thing about it was that the whole garment was covered with a lattice work of diagonal string or thread. The intersection of the threads had a little metal (gold?) button or bead on it. In another wing in front of the Royal Mummy Room were some large black wigs. I believe they were goat hair and were immense. I can't believe they looked that ratty when new. One can only assume being preserved under such bad conditions caused a "bad hair" day (millenium?). Does anyone with a better memory who has been in Egypt remember seeing this garment? In the same wing were the pectorals and other ornaments that have survived. Since the representation of jewelry in Egyptian carving is relatively close to surviving pieces, I'm not sure we should assume the representation of costume is so inaccurate. Especially during the reign of Akhenaton (1379-1362 b.c.e.), I believe realism in painting and sculpture was highly prized. However, I am not an Egyptologist, so I could be mistaken. Marsha J. Hamilton Head, Monograph Acquisition Division.....phone: (614) 292-6314 The Ohio State University Libraries........fax: (614) 292-2015 1858 Neil Avenue Mall...................e-mail: hamilton.8@osu.edu Columbus, OH 43210-1286 USA ................ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 7 Mar 1996 15:20:21 -0600 (CST) From: Teresa Shannon Subject: Re: breastplates again Okay, I understand now. You are right that a covered breastplate is different. What you want to know is hard to document. There are no surviving examples that I know of for what you are describing, only pictorial, maybe literary representations. There may be a german example of this as well as Spanish. They are pieces of cloth cut to fit just the breastplate, (I don't think the whole cuirass is included, just the breastplate.) and laced with aglets to hold it tight. This is definitely the first third of the fifteenth century (if luck shined you would be able to find it in the last 10 years of the 14th century only). Oddly enough the Metropolitan in New York probably has documentation for this. I say oddly enough because Blair and associates who were much enamored of 14th century armor would try and document weird, non-normal armor configurations of Northern European armor with Spanish documentation, and then mismatch armor to try and reproduce it. The old armor collection was a travesty of misinformation and incorrect suits of conglomerate armor from different countries, styles and times. (Haven't seen the newly redone armor selection yet, want to.) Anyway it became too embarrassing even for the Met. But they collected tons of documenation from source material which could be very illuminating, especially spanish. If you give me the citation and are inclined to wait for the information, I could possible suggest some sources. So its up to you. Teresa (I don't know why I talk about armor, it isn't my specialty, but I know specialists, still if the information helps then it is of some use. Still don't take my word for it ... research it. :-) ) > > Thanks to all who replied to my husband's breastplate cover question. I guess > I didn't make myself clear in the original post. The item in question is not > a tabard or a piece of armor with fabric permanently affixed to it (which was > sometimes even done with helmets!), but a fitted fabric cover exactly the > shape of the curved breastplate and tied to it with numerous and extremely > visible ties. There is even a slit just below one shoulder that opens for a > buckle of some kind -- the painted folds around it show that it is indeed a > fabric cover and not painted metal or leather, or some other rigid material. > Plus there is the aforementioned matching (attached?) cape. We'd appreciate > any information on this garment. Thanks again. > Gail (for Scott) Finke/gaelscot@aol.com > ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 7 Mar 1996 16:34:00 -0500 From: BBrisbane@aol.com Subject: Re: re: Washing Linen Two more cents on linen: I wash new yardage several times before cutting, because with linen, the more you flex the fibers, the less they hold a wrinkle and feel softer. As a sidebar, respected scientists produced an article on micro-examination of linenfibers to prove this, in Discover or Scientific American, or some other similar mag - I can't cite it, but I remember being suprised that yet again SCIENCE PROVED SOMETHING WE ALREADY KNEW! The other coin - I have to say I haven't really had a shrinkage problem with linen, but if the warp is a hightwist thread, it will 'creperize' that is, pucker up like a crepe. This can be rectified with a firm hand and an iron, but becomes rather tiresome, so make sure it creperizes before you make a garment. Ciao! Brenda ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 7 Mar 1996 17:13:43 -0500 From: Booboopies@aol.com Subject: Re: Rennfaire costuming Don't want to raise a ruckus here -- I do 18th century reenactment so I can answer for the RenFairs, etc. Generally speaking , in the 18th century only a certain sort of woman exposed as much of her breasts as possible. This kind of costume (it must be called a costume because it isn't authentic or accurate) is usually frowned on at least by most women (and probably most of the men, even though they may smirk and leer and make naughty comments). Karen ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 7 Mar 1996 17:19:56 -0500 From: Booboopies@aol.com Subject: Re: bosom fashions (was RenFaires) The picture to which you refer is captioned "La Belle." That's French for a whore. Karen ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 7 Mar 1996 16:14:05 -0800 From: Joan Broneske Subject: Easter Bonnet Parade Old Sacramento Living History Center Is pleased to present VICTORIAN EASTER BONNET PARADE Featuring Historical characters from Sacramento's Victorian Era Dressed in their Easter finery in a Traditional Promenade Saturday, April 6, 1996 From 1:30 to 3:00 p.m. in Old Sacramento We are inviting all costumed re-enactors, historical interpreters and = docents to participate. We will be having music from the Sacramento = Banjo Band, refreshments and carriage rides. Come join us and wear your = favorite chapeau! ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 7 Mar 1996 16:43:40 -0800 From: gwjchris@ix.netcom.com (Bill and Glenna Christen ) Subject: Re: Wallets and Pocketbooks? Ysabeau... You wrote: > >Does anyone know what men in the late 19th century would have carried their >money in, both coin and paper? Wallets like we do? Bigger or smaller? And >any ideas as to where they would have carried these wallets, particularly if >they were Army officers whose uniform blouse did not include an inside pocket? Wallets and coin purses and bags. Wallets that I have seen were about the size of today's checkbook, usually with two folding flaps along the longest sides with a simple leater clasp. Officer's uniforms were generally tailored for the individual, and as in most well made later 19th century men's coats had an inside pocket. I'm not an expert in men's accessories, so these are genralizations. In checking pages 210 and 211 of "The Male Image," by Penelope Byrde, B.T. Batsford, London, 1979 I find only general statements about these items. Lord's "Civil War Collector's Encyclopedia" has these references (with some photo's): Vol. 1, page 332 Vol. 2, page 204 Vol. 3, page 34 Vol. 5, page 216 I can make copies, and snail mail to anyone interested. Bill Chriosten gwjchris@ix.netcom.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 7 Mar 1996 20:36:52 -0500 From: Gaelscot@aol.com Subject: renfair costumes I was rather taken aback at the vehement reply to Jennifer's original posting about the two bosoms -- oops, women -- she saw at a Renaissance Faire. Of course, I happen to agree with Jennifer so that might account for it. I am at a loss to account for the original phenomena, however, and similar outfits I have seen at SCA events. Instead of reacting without thought, as the woman who replied to Jennifer's posting did, women who offer the world such complete views of their breasts ought to remember that at least SOME people who view their charms have no wish to do so, and might even be offended by their dress. Distasteful as this thought might be to the wearer, the sight may be equally distasteful to the viewer. I'm sure cyberspace is echoing with cries of "I can wear what I want and no one can tell me otherwise!" And that is quite true. But it's not realistic to pretend that, if you do something practically calculated to offend a large number of people, you can ensure that they won't be offended by WILLING it so. And at a venue like a RenFair, where a huge cross-section of the public comes, people are bound to be offended. I must say that I've never found the "bawdy wenches" type of RenFair people remotely interesting, but that's probably because I've seen enough bawdy wenches in the last 12 years of SCA to feel that their entertainment value is overrated. I imagine that the general public, not inured to such sights, is probably amused. But when a costume oversteps the bounds of decency, I think Jennifer's questions are valid -- even if the make of costume can be documented for women who weren't prostitutes. Doesn't the Faire management care? Does it want its workers to be classed with Hooters waitresses? Isn't the Faire encouraging a callous attitude toward its workers, if not all women? I would certainly want to know. And when I see such an outfit I always want to know what the wearer was thinking -- even if I never ask. Gail Finke/gaelscot@aol.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 07 Mar 1996 21:23:28 GMT From: db-cos@westmore.demon.co.uk (David Brewer) Subject: Re: breastplates again In message <960307145007_162725208@mail02.mail.aol.com> Gaelscot@aol.com writes: > Thanks to all who replied to my husband's breastplate cover question. I guess > I didn't make myself clear in the original post. The item in question is not > a tabard or a piece of armor with fabric permanently affixed to it (which was > sometimes even done with helmets!), but a fitted fabric cover exactly the > shape of the curved breastplate and tied to it with numerous and extremely > visible ties. You mentioned before there was a cross on this garment. I assume this is a St. George's cross (red on white). This could be the artist identifying the saint (yes, yes, like there are lots of other dragon-killing saints at large). > There is even a slit just below one shoulder that opens for a > buckle of some kind -- the painted folds around it show that it is indeed a > fabric cover and not painted metal or leather, or some other rigid material. I assume this split is for the lance-rest. Otherwise, I know nothing. - -- David Brewer ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 07 Mar 1996 17:46:50 -0800 From: "R.L. Shep" Subject: Re: Where did the man's tie come from? MR A R CRAIG wrote: > > Hello folks: > > I've trying to locate information on where tie's come from. Can anyone > tell me? I'd be especially interested in knowing where in current > literature I might find some information on this. Any help would be > appreciated. > > Because I am not part of this news-group, please E-Mail me in private > at: csrt29a@prodigy.com > > Thanks, A. Craig. > Upper Marlboro, Maryland. Information on this can be found in LATE GEORGIAN COSTUME which includes 2 books "The Tailor's Friendly Instructor" J. Wyatt(1822) and "The Art of Tying the Cravat" by H. Le Blanc (1828) - price$18.95 + 2.50 shipping from ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 7 Mar 1996 21:18:21 -0500 From: Louise Sugar Subject: RE: Washing Linen Count me in too....sounds like just the thing for we bigger than average ladies :D Louise - ---------- From: mgriggs@shepards.com[SMTP:mgriggs@shepards.com] Sent: Thursday, March 07, 1996 10:30 AM To: h-costume@lunch.engr.sgi.com Subject: re: Washing Linen Chelsea Hoffmann This sounds soooo comfortable! Where can I find info for making one? Lyssa - ----------------------------------------- Lady Leofsige O Caoimh mgriggs@shepards.com Lyssa@kktv.com http://www.usa.net/~norseman/dragon.html - ----------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 7 Mar 1996 21:26:39 -0500 From: Morghana@aol.com Subject: Re: renfair costumes In a message dated 96-03-07 20:42:33 EST, Gaelscot@aol.com writes: >Instead of reacting without thought, as the woman >who replied to Jennifer's posting did, women who offer the world such >complete views of their breasts ought to remember that at least SOME people >who view their charms have no wish to do so, and might even be offended by >their dress. Distasteful as this thought might be to the wearer, the sight >may be equally distasteful to the viewer. Being the woman who, according to you "reacted without thought", I feel free to reply. My post was NOT made without thought. Quite the contrary. I take no quarrel with your contention that the display may be tasteless, and possibly demeaning to women as well as offensive to some portion of the population. What I took issue with WAS the flavor of the post. What *I* saw was a self-proclaimed member of the authenticity police "tsk-tsking" those ill-informed RenFaire folk in the guise of a query that was worded to make the point that unless you are blood-curdlingly "historically accurate", then you are to be looked down at. IF that was not the original poster's intent, I apologized once, and I will do so again. My biggest objection is the waving of credentials then the proclaiming of "This is OBVIOUSLY wrong" or "not in period" or the one that I love the most "They never did such-and-so." How do we know they didn't? Yes, I'm aware that many writers have "documented" wardrobes and painters have made hundreds of lovely depictions. BUT, remember the bias of the painter, the writer and the memory. As a case in point, let me refer back to the original post. The description that Ms Carlson (If she has an academic title, I am sorry, but I do not know it: no disrespect to her scholarly achievements is intended) wrote and used of the gowns she was astounded by. Now....she is a scholar in her field, correct? She saw the garments personally and described them. So is her account to be held as gospel? How would this description be treated in four hundred years WITHOUT having that benefit of immediacy? Would readers assume that everyone dressed this way? That it was "period"? After all, if it were the only description of some "major event" in the lives of the populace of that region in the year 1996, it would *have* to be given some fairly weighty consideration.......... Yes, I may be exaggerating the point, but I think it should be remembered, that all the documentation that we (and I include myself) cite actually covers a small fraction of what was actually done and worn, and is subject to the whims, interpretations and artistic license of the documenter (and any bias that documentor has or wishes to espouse). The other point I'd like to raise is this: If you find the display of bosoms unpleasant or tasteless, just say so. Please don't couch it in terms of historical correctness. It neither lends respectability nor credibility to the assertion, and involves scholarship in an arena it simply is out of place in. You are ALWAYS welcome to express your opinion on this, and I will defend your right to do so, but leave historical correctness out of it. ------------------------------ End of H-Costume Digest V4 #56 ****************************** A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to subscribe to that instead, send the command lines: unsubscribe h-costume-digest subscribe h-costume end in the body of a message to majordomo@lunch.engr.sgi.com. Thanks and enjoy the list!