From: owner-h-costume-digest (H-Costume Digest) To: h-costume-digest@lunch.engr.sgi.com Subject: H-Costume Digest V4 #61 Reply-To: h-costume Sender: owner-h-costume-digest@lunch.engr.sgi.com Errors-To: owner-h-costume-digest@lunch.engr.sgi.com Precedence: bulk H-Costume Digest Saturday, March 9 1996 Volume 4, Number 61 Compilation copyright (C) 1996 Diane Barlow Close and Gretchen Miller Use in whole prohibited. Individual articles are the property of the author. Seek permission from that author before reprinting or quoting elsewhere. Important Addresses: Send submissions to: h-costume@lunch.engr.sgi.com (or reply to this message). Adds/drops/archives: majordomo@lunch.engr.sgi.com Real, live person: h-costume-request@andrew.cmu.edu Topics: Re: RenFair costumes Re: renfair costumes Re: Ren fair costumes Re: Ren fair costumes Re: Question Re: Ren fair costumes Re: Picky....picky, was: renfair costumes Re: H-Costume Digest V4 #59 Re: RenFaire Costumes Flame retardant wool (old thread) Ren Faire flames Citation Question Re: Ren fair costumes Re: Picky....picky, was: renfair costumes ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 9 Mar 1996 10:34:24 -0600 (CST) From: "\"Randy Shipp\"" Subject: Re: RenFair costumes On Fri, 8 Mar 1996 Morghana@aol.com wrote: > :::large portion of post snipped for brevity's sake::: > > >All I'm saying is to try to bear in mind that RenFaires are for- > >profit entertainment, and have to balance a great number of > >considerations, most importantly what brings in patrons and what they > >want to see once they are there. If you want near-absolute > >historical accuracy, **there are other venues.** Please do not > >impose your strict judgments (term chosen intentionally) in a blanket > >manner on any and all period-esque endeavors. > > > >As in all spheres of human enterprise, there are many variations, > >interpretations, and room for all of them. > > > >Laura Hunt Yungblut, Ph.D > >Univ. of Dayton > >Queen Elizabeth I, Ohio Renaissance Festival > >Mistress Rosamund Beauvisage (OL), Society for Creative Anachronism > >yungblut@checkov.hm.udayton.edu > > THANK YOU, thank you, thank you!!!!!!!!!! > > I am most humbly grateful for your words of reason and moderation. I hope > that those who chose to see my point as castigating scholarship (which I am > not) or demanding that "anything goes" without care for history and reason > will read your posting and perhaps finally see the point. > > Again, thank you for saying so well what needed to be said. :) As another poster remarked, saying you are running a "Renaissance" festival without letting the public know in any way that this is really fantasy, not the Renaissance, does a disservice to everyone. "Ohio Medieval Fantasy Fair" or something would be OK, but the public most certainly does NOT know that this is all just fun. 95% of the people who attend may not care, but for the other 5% who might be receptive to actual truth, and for the children who will have to be deprogrammed of all the fantasy they've been taught when it's time to know the truth, it's not much of a service. Again I'll ask: Why are the truth and fun incompatible concepts? Randy... ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 9 Mar 1996 10:40:26 -0600 (CST) From: "\"Randy Shipp\"" Subject: Re: renfair costumes On Fri, 8 Mar 1996 Morghana@aol.com wrote: > >Paraphrase: "You are welcome to express your opinion, unless you intend > >to be scholarly and educated, in which case you will lessen my fun. > >Better that you agree with my peasant outfit and keep your documentation > >to yourself." > > > >Randy... > > You solidly missed my point. Perhaps you'd care to read Laura Yungblut's > post in this thread. She has the credentials to speak and be respected > (which I apparently lack) and seems to be able to couch this point in terms > that are less easily mocked than mine I read it. Her considerable academic achievements, which I respect a lot, apparently have not disabused her of the notion that because the Renaissance Festivals are "fun", it's OK to be inaccurate. Again, as though fun and accuracy are mutually exclusive. Would the public be less entertained by a wandering minstrel in an authentic outfit? By a brave knight in authentic armor? By a barservant in something slightly less ridiculous? Again, I recommend Ohio Medieval Fantasy Faire as a new name for the event, although her group's production sounds a heck of a lot better than Scarborough Faire here in Texas. Randy... ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 9 Mar 1996 09:49:46 -0800 From: KaosWarior@vcnet.com Subject: Re: Ren fair costumes Nea wrote: >As many people have pointed out, Renfaires are business ventures, not >teaching events. Furthermore, I've never been to a Faire that didn't throw >elements of real history (how researchers see the middle ages), historical >history (how people from a different era - namely Victorian - saw the middle >ages), fantasy (unicorns), > > >and blatent commercial endeavors ("Hey, let's call >the turkey drumsticks 'dragon legs' & sell 'em anyway!") Seeings how the Turkey is indigenous to North America... ;) ---------- / / --------------- O O TO BOLDY SCOOT, WHERE NO MAN HATH SCOOTED BEFORE! ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 9 Mar 1996 10:06:20 -0800 (PST) From: "Sarah E. Goodman" Subject: Re: Ren fair costumes > As many people have pointed out, Renfaires are business ventures, not > teaching events. Just to be technical, up until a year or so ago, the California Pleasure Faires were run by the Living History Center (which still is still connected with them but no longer owns them or handles the commercial side) which is a 501(c)(3) Educational Non-profit Organization. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 9 Mar 1996 10:14:05 -0800 (PST) From: "Sarah E. Goodman" Subject: Re: Question On Sat, 9 Mar 1996, Deirdre wrote: > I'm just wondering what they'll say in the future about what's historically > accurate about THIS decade. Some year when Costume Con is in the Bay Area, I want to put together a "historical" costume involving "The Living History Center Presents The Summer of Love Pleasure Faire 2168", with people dressed as "hippies" as preceived after a couple of centuries, when a decade one way or another is close enough: poodle skirts and love beads; disco shoes and caftans! *************************************************************************** Sarah E. Goodman goodston@well.sf.ca.us goodston@netcom.com goodston@river.org Senior Designer & Chief Cat Herder, Wee Cottage, Daly City, California, USA *************************************************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 9 Mar 1996 10:17:48 -0800 (PST) From: "Sarah E. Goodman" Subject: Re: Ren fair costumes > >and blatent commercial endeavors ("Hey, let's call > >the turkey drumsticks 'dragon legs' & sell 'em anyway!") > > Seeings how the Turkey is indigenous to North America... ;) I can't resist--Turkey's are indigenous to Faire! ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 9 Mar 1996 13:39:19 -0500 (EST) From: Judy Gerjuoy Subject: Re: Picky....picky, was: renfair costumes On Fri, 8 Mar 1996 ches@tristero.io.com wrote: > On Thu, 7 Mar 1996 23:26:13 -0500 (EST) Judy Gerjuoy wrote: > >I, on the other hand, think that entertainment groups *do* have an > >obligation to try and do a good job. If they are billing themselves as a > >Rennaissance Fair they *should* try and do it accurately. > > > >If they are billing themselves as a fantasy fair, that is something > >different. Then they can do whatever they please. > > Picky, Picky, picky..... I will pick next. Fantasy fair means sci-fi and a > multitude of others. Why does fantasy - science fiction, especially when it doesn't necessarily in the gendre. But fine, call it a medieval fantasy faire, and be honest up front that you are *not* historically accurate. Of course, the faire might have trouble getting 501 3(c) status as a non-profit *educational* organization, which some of them do. Ren fair means that which the organizers FEEL is of the days > gone by before 1600. If you don't want to see it, be entertained by it then by all > means do not go. I will go. I want to buy nifty gifts for christmas and such. Maybe > if I am in the mood I will take out my washable finery and walk through the ever > present mud and be a part of an amalgam of culture and time. And, I am not stopping you. But the point I am trying to make is that why can't it be fun and as correct as possible. I a perfectly aware that there will have to be adjustments for the fact that this is 20th century America - but why have more than you need? Judy/Jaelle jaelle@access.digex.net If the world were merely seductive, that would be easy. If it were merely challenging, that would be no problem. But I arise in the morning torn between a desire to improve the world, and a desire to enjoy the world. This makes it hard to plan the day. - E. B. White ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 9 Mar 1996 13:49:15 -0600 (CST) From: Linda Thompson Subject: Re: H-Costume Digest V4 #59 Regarding the debate on costume authenticity and RenFaires: I am a semi-pro, hobby, whatever costumer, meaning I am still learning every minute. So what I have to say may not be from a specialist but it is from experience. I currently am volunteering with our local RenFest entertainment department as a costumer/helper, and have been for 3 years. We work very closely with an SCA rep that has a great deal of knowledge about the wearing apparel of the time period. 1500-1545. For Actors (recreating a scenario, and street characters): We go through a revue process for each and every costume that is worn by our actors. Paid and un-paid go through the same process. We revue sketches, fabrics, and accesories. Then we must see the finished costume. Efforts are made to keep everyone as "period" as possible. Yes some characters bend the rules, it happens, but we do the best we can in discouraging this, and they are not invited back if caught. We also have a 3 finger rule about breast exposure. For fantasy characters: (elves..whatever) We have a man from Bedlam, one elf, and sometimes two trolls. All of them dress as close to period as possible with theatrical embellishments. For vendors and stage acts: All we can do is make suggestions and requests. Now if the entertainment director feels an act is dressed incorrectly then I guess the act is not hired. But as far as making them dress authentic, pretty much powerless. Patrons arriving in costume!! This is scary. To performers and others!... It is unbelievable what people will wear out at Faire. Some costumes have been made with incredible detail and obviously with much care and attention to detail, but the major portion of visitors in costume could care less about authenticity, and why would we expect them to. They are there for a good time and have paid for the privledge. Unfortunately it gives some Faires a bad rep since it is very possible to mistake a patron for a performer. Most faires try to do the best they can. A bit wordy, sorry bout that. LThompsn@sound.net ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 9 Mar 1996 17:54:48 -0500 From: Morghana@aol.com Subject: Re: RenFaire Costumes In a message dated 96-03-09 11:14:00 EST, IMC@vax2.utulsa.edu (Jennifer Carlson) writes: >7. I deplore the habit of shredding someone's work just to prove > that you can do it, or just to get your kicks. If your self- > image is that low, you need serious help. You know, I was fine with your explanations/reasoning up to this line. You're willing to accept my apologies, but seemingly cannot restrain from taking shots with no evident desire for contrition if *you* misunderstood *me*. This saddens me, but so be it. Back to the issue that was under discussion: My bottom line contention is still that RenFaires are a business venture, and nearly all of them do not pretend to be "historically accurate". (Kudos to any who do!!) Yes, it would be nice if they were historically accurate, but if that is what you're immediately after, as another stated so well, there are other venues to satisfy that. Please do use the "gentle guidance" you mentioned and in the long run, you may be able to influence those RenFaires into more accuracy. As I stated before, I would be *delighted* to see it, but any business (at least in the US) is ultimately guided by the bottom line. If historical accuracy gets a blacker bottom line, they'll do it. With your credentials and abilities, I would think you'd be *more* than welcome to advise and consult in costuming at a RenFaire near you. Then there is the discussion that the average paying customer at a RenFaire doesn't really give a whit about historical accuracy. They are there for a show--no different than if they go to a State Fair or the circus or Disney on Ice. Those who *are* interested in accuracy will find avenues for information (just like someone who goes to Disney on Ice can find information on figure skating elsewhere). Is it right? Probably not. But wishing it were different WON'T make it so, nor will the complaining that others on the list have made that if they call themselves Renaissance Fairs, they should be accurate. They (RenFaires) won't do it until it pays them more to do so than it does to continue on the way they are currently. Ultimately the best teaching tool is a good example. If your garb/costume reflects the standards you say you have, then people will try to emulate you and in the long run, you *will* have a positive effect on others, even the RenFaire folk who triggered your original posting. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 9 Mar 1996 18:41:21 -0600 (CST) From: Jennifer Carlson Subject: Flame retardant wool (old thread) Some weeks back a discussion of the flame retardant qualities of wool produced the question of whether 19th century people knew about it and used it to advantage. I remembered a literary reference, but it took me a while to track it down: Mary Mapes Dodge, 1831-1905, wrote *Hans Brinker, or, The Silver Skates*, which first came out in 1865. In the story, the father, who is out of his head, tries to injure his wife by holding her in the fire. She escapes injury, according to the story, because "Lucky for Dame Brinker, the gown was woolen." This doesn't do much for telling whether people deliberately used wool to make fire retardant clothing, but that fire retardant property was definitely known. Hope this helps, Jennifer Carlson Tulsa, OK Posting from my husband's account Authenticity Police, Department of Internal Affairs "Master Brewski, you have taught that the word beer applies only to malted beverages brewed with hops, and that they came in too late in our period to be considered. Yet, an Anglo-Saxon Gospel of a.d. 1000, uses the word "beor" for strong drink in Luke 1:15. Also, Charles V (1337-1380) of France passed a law reducing the tax on hop beer in the cities of Liege and Utrecht. Please come along quietly." ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 9 Mar 1996 18:43:02 -0600 (CST) From: "I. Marc Carlson" Subject: Ren Faire flames First things first: This is NOT Jennifer Carlson, but rather the one to whom this account belongs. I have avoided taking any part in this thread since not only is Jennifer an adult, capable of defending herself, but also because I hadn't wanted to muddy the water. She has informed me that as she hadn't intended on beginning this sort of pissing contest on this list, but merely have her simple question answered. She has declined to continue this here. Any further flames to HER should be addressed to this account privately, with her name in the subject line. I, on the other hand, have a few comments to make, and if they stray any further from the topic of this list than any of the *other* material that has passed in this, or similar threads, I apologize to the list management, and to the sane and rational members of the list. Since the comments that I am responding to were made here on the list, however, I would be remiss in not making my initial response to the list. <"Morghana@aol.com"> >>7. I deplore the habit of shredding someone's work just to >>prove that you can do it, or just to get your kicks. If your >>self-image is that low, you need serious help. >You know, I was fine with your explanations/reasoning up to >this line.... The "you" in the line you quoted was, in fact rhetorical (and not directed specifically at you). YOU (Morghana) seem to have trouble *reading* simple comments. I realise, however, that you (Morghana) were looking so hard for such criticism that it would have been unlikely that you would have read it as anything else. You were wrong. BTW, just so you aren't confused further, I *am* referring to you, and not making any polite rhetorical points. To continue, whether or not Renfaires are or ought to be authentic is irrelevant to the question that was asked. It is merely a diversionary tactic that you have dredged up, for goodness knows what reason, rather than actually answering the question that was originally asked. I'm just sorry that you have managed to suck in so many people into fighting over that sort of crap, but had you been paying any amount of attention, you would have noticed that at no time had Jennifer made any statement one way or the other on that topic. You have no clue what her opinion is on that topic, so stop criticising her on it. You have applauded all those who agree with you, and that's perfectly understandable, but don't you think that it makes you look like a hypocrite to cling to the credentials of the only other person who has appeared to say anything that might be an agreement to you, after having maintained that Jennifer was somehow a bad person for having mentioned hers? If you wish to continue this, you might want to do so off list, although as long as you reply to the list, I will also (unless they remove me from the list, that is). I don't really care for "flame contests" but I *do* think that people, such as yourself, should learn to think before they attack people for no reason. Marc Carlson ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 9 Mar 1996 18:43:31 -0600 (CST) From: "I. Marc Carlson" Subject: Citation Question Just as a question, as long as I'm actually expressing myself here. I have been using the quote "Authenticity is not a matter of money, but of time" in my .sig line lately. Unfortunately, I have been unable to correctly cite the source since I can't recall which of you actually said it. Who was it? Marc Carlson ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 9 Mar 1996 17:48:36 -0800 From: KaosWarior@vcnet.com Subject: Re: Ren fair costumes >> >and blatent commercial endeavors ("Hey, let's call >> >the turkey drumsticks 'dragon legs' & sell 'em anyway!") >> >> Seeings how the Turkey is indigenous to North America... ;) > >I can't resist--Turkey's are indigenous to Faire! Touche` ---------- / / --------------- O O TO BOLDY SCOOT, WHERE NO MAN HATH SCOOTED BEFORE! ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 9 Mar 1996 18:29:26 -0800 From: fishcat@hooked.net (Trystan L. Bass) Subject: Re: Picky....picky, was: renfair costumes Judy Gerjuoy wrote: >But the point I am trying to make is that why can't it be fun and as >correct as possible. I a perfectly aware that there will have to be >adjustments for the fact that this is 20th century America - but why have >more than you need? Of the dozen or so different Ren Faires I've been to, all of them *are* as historically accurate as is possible and practical for the organization, and any inaccuracies are usually due to costs, deadlines, limited resources, audience expectations, etc. Besides, the picture of life in the Renaissance that these Ren Faires present is not really wildly abberant from what we know of the truth. Sure, there's some standardization and skimping in the costuming, but the basic shape is usually there. From what I've seen, the fabrics used are as accurate as is reasonable & not prohibitively expensive. The class stratification is shown in a more benign light, and the disease and poverty are usually downplayed, but, then again, this is supposed to be a celebration, not gritty reality. The food is often wrong, but customers might not buy completely accurate stuff. The crafts aren't always historical, and the games, plays, and jousts may well be anachronistic, but they are there for entertainment purposes and to make money. These are all small imperfections that simply add to the customers' enjoyment of the faire. They generally don't detract terribly from the presentation of the historical period & I can't believe that they fatally corrupt anyone's understanding of history. After hearing some of these anti-Ren Faire people rant, you'd think that every single faire customer went home beliving Queen Elizabeth wore day-glo polyesther while riding unicorns to court! Give me a break! @->->-- Trystan L. Bass --<-<-@ Toreador Web Mistress http://www.hooked.net/users/fishcat/ fishcat@hooked.net, trystan@livewire.com ------------------------------ End of H-Costume Digest V4 #61 ****************************** A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to subscribe to that instead, send the command lines: unsubscribe h-costume-digest subscribe h-costume end in the body of a message to majordomo@lunch.engr.sgi.com. Thanks and enjoy the list!