From: owner-h-costume-digest (H-Costume Digest) To: h-costume-digest@lunch.engr.sgi.com Subject: H-Costume Digest V4 #62 Reply-To: h-costume Sender: owner-h-costume-digest@lunch.engr.sgi.com Errors-To: owner-h-costume-digest@lunch.engr.sgi.com Precedence: bulk H-Costume Digest Sunday, March 10 1996 Volume 4, Number 62 Compilation copyright (C) 1996 Diane Barlow Close and Gretchen Miller Use in whole prohibited. Individual articles are the property of the author. Seek permission from that author before reprinting or quoting elsewhere. Important Addresses: Send submissions to: h-costume@lunch.engr.sgi.com (or reply to this message). Adds/drops/archives: majordomo@lunch.engr.sgi.com Real, live person: h-costume-request@andrew.cmu.edu Topics: Short Hair Re: Flame retardant Re: Ren fair costumes Re: RenFair costumes Ornamentation question Re: Flame retardant wool (old thread) Re: Short hair for women? Ren Faire fight Corset boning source? Pickiness Re: Ren Faire fight Historic clothing newsletter Re: Corset boning source Books (was Re: Pickiness) Re: Ornamentation question Short hair for women Re: Pickiness Re: Short hair for women? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 9 Mar 1996 18:42:04 -0800 From: kondoa@ucs.orst.edu Subject: Short Hair I don't think this was a totally short haircut, but here's a quote from the Marquise de Sevigne, 1671 describing a new hairstyle at the Frence Court, called l'hurlu'brelu: Imagine a head parted in the middle like a peasant to withing two finders of the pad. The hair is cut on each side, stage by stage, to form large round curls with a negligent air, which do not come any lower than one finger below the ear. It looks very young & pretty, like two bouquets of hair on each side. It is important not to cut the hair too short. Ribbons are added in the ordinary way & a large curl placed between the pad & the coiffure. Sometimes it hangs down to the throat. I do not know if I have represented the fashion very well for you. I'll have a dools hair dressed to send to you." From " Louis XIV & Versailles" by Diana de Marly, Batsford Pubs, London, 1987 ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 9 Mar 1996 18:05:43 -0800 From: KaosWarior@vcnet.com Subject: Re: Flame retardant >Some weeks back a discussion of the flame retardant qualities of >wool produced the question of whether 19th century people knew >about it and used it to advantage. > If "this" were the only flames that this list had to deal with (sigh) ---------- / / --------------- O O TO BOLDY SCOOT, WHERE NO MAN HATH SCOOTED BEFORE! ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 Mar 1995 21:40:55 -0800 From: LMetz Subject: Re: Ren fair costumes NeaDods@aol.com wrote: > > I can't resist jumping into this... which probably means that I'll draw fire > from both sides... :> > > As many people have pointed out, Renfaires are business ventures, not > teaching events. Furthermore, I've never been to a Faire that didn't throw > elements of real history (how researchers see the middle ages), historical > history (how people from a different era - namely Victorian - saw the middle > ages), fantasy (unicorns), and blatent commercial endeavors ("Hey, let's call > the turkey drumsticks 'dragon legs' & sell 'em anyway!") all together into a > cultural blender. > > What you come up with is a homogenized look that is neither flesh nor fowl - > not accurate history, but not quite pure fantasy either. It is, for lack of > a better term "The Renfaire Look" -- unique unto itself, but universal in > renaissance festivals. And busty wenches falling out of their tightly laced > bodices seems to be a well-established part of that look; certainly they show > up in every Faire I've ever been to. I'd be willing to bet that the majority > of non-historians who go to Renfaires expect the women to look like the St. > Pauli Girl. *We* know it's not accurate to the historical time period, but > it IS accurate to the look of a C20 Renfaire. > > Nea > neadods@aol.com Exactly, and just for the sake that Ren Faires ARE basically money making ventures with history mixed in, and things are more or less done to please the public, we cannot expect everyone, much less most people, to be historically accurate nor should we. Ren Faire bills itself as a "pleasure Faire" and not as a "place to see historically accurate clothing, etc etc." I don't think we should expect more than that from something that doesn't even claim to BE historically accurate. Most people go there for the novelty, not to study costuming in an accurate setting. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 Mar 1995 21:48:27 -0800 From: LMetz Subject: Re: RenFair costumes > As another poster remarked, saying you are running a "Renaissance" > festival without letting the public know in any way that this is really > fantasy, not the Renaissance, does a disservice to everyone. "Ohio > Medieval Fantasy Fair" or something would be OK, but the public most > certainly does NOT know that this is all just fun. 95% of the people who > attend may not care, but for the other 5% who might be receptive to > actual truth, and for the children who will have to be deprogrammed of > all the fantasy they've been taught when it's time to know the truth, > it's not much of a service. > > Again I'll ask: Why are the truth and fun incompatible concepts? > > Randy... Don't you think that most people who ARE interested in knowing the truth would know enough about their interests to realize that the costumes aren't historically correct? I mean really, if going to renaissance Faire is all the research they are going to do on clothing, I wouldn't think they'd be very interested anyway. People are getting upset because someone didn't dress accurately, so what? People do things all the time that aren't correct, that's life. If everyone had as much of an interest in costuming as you and everyone else in this post did, everyone here would be out of a job! Let it rest, it's not that big of a deal...you can't expect everyone to be as passionate as you are about what you love. (not directed to just ONE person) ------------------------------ Date: 10 Mar 96 00:48:01 EST From: "Sandra J. Westergren" <74133.704@compuserve.com> Subject: Ornamentation question Greetings unto all my fellow costumers. I have found a reference to items that I'm hoping some of you may be able to help me find more information on. In "Fashion in the Age of the Black Prince - a Study of the years 1340-1365" by Stella Mary Newton are several references to what they most often call 'bezents'. "These gaufres, or wafers, were small ornaments stamped into fanciful shapes from thin sheets of gold or silver-gilt, and either powdered at random, sometimes held by a couple stitches through a small hole, so that they hung loose all over the garment and caught the light as the wearer moved, or else used to punctuate embroidery worked in a close pattern of silk, pearls or jewels. Sometimes referred to as bezants, a great many of these charming ornaments have survived." (stated in the Statuts des Orfevres de al Ville de Paris-approx 1355) "No bezants or such ornaments to decorate silk stuffs were to be nailed down on to the material, but all must be attached only by stitching with a needle so that their backs could be examined for base metals." The book is populated with enough references and photos (including one of an embossing block for making them) that I do believe that they existed and were used in the period that this book covers. As the quote states "a great many ...have survived". Therefore I figure there has to be some other book than this one which notes them. My question is - Does anyone have any sources that date this type of ornament to dates later than 1365? Are they called by other names? The book mentions 'colfacches' as a possible variant of bezants. I'm hoping to prove they were still in use up to 1500. Any help or direction greatly appreciated. Thanks Sandra Westergren Minnepolis Minnesota (known in the SCA as Cassandra with a manor in Nordskogen) ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 Mar 1995 21:57:33 -0800 From: LMetz Subject: Re: Flame retardant wool (old thread) Speaking of "flame retardants"...are there any we can use on the Ren Faire subject? Just asking ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 9 Mar 1996 22:51:47 -0800 From: gwjchris@ix.netcom.com (Bill and Glenna Christen ) Subject: Re: Short hair for women? You wrote: >In "Who Wore What, Women's wear 1861-1865" by Juanita Leisch there are >several pictures of women with a very distinct short hairstyle. This only seems to be in the late teens/early 20's age group. Bill & I have about 50 CdV (out of 5000+) of mostly very young women with short hair (neatly parted down the middle.) The back marks and/or revenue stamps date them all to the 1865-67 time period. Does anyone know if there was some fad for this or what? None of them look like they'd been suffering from a high fever or lice, the only usual reason for short hair in this period I'm aware of. All information would be welcomed! Glenna Jo Christen LHS, LSFS & MSAS gwjchris@ix.netcom.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 10 Mar 1996 09:02:35 -0700 From: Sharon Bolton Subject: Ren Faire fight Thanks to everyone for putting Ren Faire in their headers. I have saved a great deal of time over the past few days by just pushing DELETE, DELETE, DELETE... ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 10 Mar 1996 11:58:41 -0500 From: Morghana@aol.com Subject: Corset boning source? Can anyone recommend a good source of 1/2' flat steel corset boning? I'd really prefer coated bones if possible. (Note: I'm aware that Alter Years/Raiments carries these, but since they now have a goodly 3 week wait to ship at the regular rate, and I don't want to pay next day air every time I order--as I just did--I was hoping to find another source that might not be so busy or require the high shipping rates to get stuff out in a quicker turnaround). Thanks for any info! ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 10 Mar 1996 11:31:13 -0600 (CST) From: The Espresso Pegasus! Subject: Pickiness All this talk of the 'correct things to do' has made me think about my own sources, and how actually 'period' the sources themselves are. How well did our sources do their homework? Mediveal/Renn, is my period of intrest, and I'm wondering if there are *any* sources out there that you shouldn't touch? Are there any sources that one would consider to be 'the absolute best?' Thanks! Sarahj ______________________.oO*Oo._______________________ You Can Fret Me, But You Cannot Play Upon Me--Hamlet ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 10 Mar 1996 10:40:23 -0800 (PST) From: close (Diane Barlow Close) Subject: Re: Ren Faire fight Sharon Bolton wrote: > Thanks to everyone for putting Ren Faire in their headers. I have saved a > great deal of time over the past few days by just pushing DELETE, DELETE, > DELETE... Yes, I agree. It's almost as good as having kill file ability. However, I would like to remind folks that the charter says: "Advertisements or announcements for historical costumed events are allowed, but general discussions regarding the groups or organizations ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ that sponsor costumed events is discouraged. Those of you in groups ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ that focus on costuming of a specific type (medieval re-creation, war reenactment, science fiction and fantasy, etc.) should refrain from using this list for group-specific socializing, promotion, or persona fabrication. For that type of conversation, please use your organization's own newsgroup or mailing list, which has been specifically set up to encourage those types of discussions. Example: SCA folks should use rec.org.sca for general converations about the SCA." I think the refair arguments have been beaten to death on the list, and would ask that further flames on that topic be restricted to private e-mail -- where they belong by definition of being a flame anyway. Thanks! - -- Diane Close I'm at lunch all day. :-) If a Canadian Had Said It First (The Globe & Mail): "The price of freedom is eternal vigilance plus GST." ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 8 Mar 1996 19:19:31 -0800 (PST) From: Allan Terry Subject: Historic clothing newsletter Karen, What is the ALHFAM Historic Clothing Newsletter? And how do you subscribe? Thanks, Fran ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 10 Mar 1996 11:44:37 -0800 From: gwjchris@ix.netcom.com (Bill and Glenna Christen ) Subject: Re: Corset boning source You wrote: > >Can anyone recommend a good source of 1/2' flat steel corset boning? I'd >really prefer coated bones if possible. Try Greenberg & Hammer, Inc. 24 West 57th Street New York, NY 10019-3918 (212) 246-2835 - 2836 - 2467 (800) 955-5135 fax (212)765-8475 I've not ordered myself yet, but my seamstress does all the time. They have just about anything you could want in notions for costume reproduction based on their latest 78 page catalog! Glenna Jo Christen gwjchris@ix.netcom.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 10 Mar 1996 14:57:24 -0500 From: Booboopies@aol.com Subject: Books (was Re: Pickiness) Try these: Randal Holme's "The Academy of Armory and Blazon -- granted it's 17th century, but it can be considered a primary source. Janet Arnold's Patterns in Fashion for the Elizabethan Period (sorry I can't remember the name of it) -- almost anything by Janet Arnold is excellent. Hope these two help. Karen ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 10 Mar 1996 12:30:51 -0800 (PST) From: Heather Rose Jones Subject: Re: Ornamentation question On 10 Mar 1996, Sandra J. Westergren wrote: > In "Fashion in the Age of the Black Prince - a Study of the years > 1340-1365" by Stella Mary Newton are several references to what they most often > call 'bezents'.
> My question is - Does anyone have any sources that date this type of > ornament to dates later than 1365? Are they called by other names? The book > mentions 'colfacches' as a possible variant of bezants. I'm hoping to prove > they were still in use up to 1500. The Museum of Long "Dress Accessories" book is probably describing the same sort of thing in its section on "spangles" (p.235ff) -- although it's interesting to note that the surviving examples they have are all "base metal", so those laws weren't there for fun! However the discussion there doesn't support their use beyond the mid-14th century. Heather Rose Jones ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 10 Mar 1996 14:10:30 -0800 (PST) From: Allan Terry Subject: Short hair for women Glenna, I suspect the women with short hair in _Who Wore What_ are younger than late teens/early 20s; in other words, girls rather than women. One reason I consider the statistics in this book to be bogus is they rely heavily on the subjects' age _as judged by the author, from the photos only_. I believe it was customary for many Victorian girls to wear their hair in a short, easy-care style. When they began to grow up (probably when they entered their teens) they began to grow their hair out, so they could put it up when they came out into society. (Their skirts also started out short and got progessively longer.) If it didn't grow fast enough, or if they had the type of hair that doesn't get very long, during much of the period (and certainly the 1860s) hairpieces were perfectly acceptable. I've also seen at least one period source that recommends hairpieces for women growing their hair out after an illness. (Cutting hair during illness reduced combing and washing problems; washing a sick person must have been especially difficult before modern plumbing.) Thus, if someone was wearing short hair for a formal photo, I suspect their hair was _meant_ to look short and probably indicated a young age rather than recent illness. I strongly recommend _Dressed for the Photographer: Ordinary Americans and Fashion, 1840-1890_, by Joan Severa (Kent State University Press, 1995) as a source for Victorian photos and detailed, well-researched information on what the subjects are wearing. Even if you're interested only in the Civil War period, this is a huge book (about 600 pages) and has more information on that period than _Who Wore What_. Plus, many subjects are identified, so (unlike Leisch's book) the information on what ages, social classes, etc. wear which clothes is solid. Fran Grimble ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 10 Mar 1996 14:09:37 -0700 From: savaskan@electriciti.com (Julie Adams) Subject: Re: Pickiness Sarah wrote: >How well did our sources do their homework? > >Mediveal/Renn, is my period of intrest, and I'm wondering if there are >*any* sources out there that you shouldn't touch? > >Are there any sources that one would consider to be 'the absolute best?' Sarah, I think if you will go through the Archives, there is a lot of discussion on this subject. Your question, is a bit broad in scope. The term "our sources" is fairly vague, your sources may well not be my sources. If you said: Is Janet Arnold's Patterns of Fashion a good source on making pluderhosen, it is much easier to answer you more specifically. Many of us find books with at least photos of paintings, sculptures and original garments, and quotes and translations of original documents the most enlightening. Some of the people on this list have access to actual garments (particularly in the Victorian era), and some of us have even been able to see some medieval/Renn garments/fabrics first hand in museums. If you would like to throw out a list of titles, I would be happy to put in my 2 cents worth of opinions on them, but you should probably post the question under Sources: Medieval and Renn (just to help people to decide whether to read the thread or not.) And please realize that all of our opinions can and will differ, so you really must filter them for yourself, just as you must do for your sources. Julie Adams ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 10 Mar 1996 14:09:31 -0700 From: savaskan@electriciti.com (Julie Adams) Subject: Re: Short hair for women? Bill and Glenna wrote: >Bill & I have about 50 CdV (out of 5000+) of mostly very young women >with short hair (neatly parted down the middle.) The back marks and/or >revenue stamps date them all to the 1865-67 time period. Does anyone >know if there was some fad for this or what? None of them look like >they'd been suffering from a high fever or lice, the only usual reason >for short hair in this period I'm aware of. All information would be >welcomed! Bill and Glenna, the pictures just stood out in my mind so I wanted to comment. Juanita Liesch seems to infer that it was a fashion in the teen/20s age group. I thumbed through my Dover books: Fashions and Costumes from Godey's Lady's Book and Victorian Fashions and Costumes from Harpers Bizarre, 1867-1898, and I think there are a few plates which look to me like they are depicting shorter hairstyles in the 1870's, 80's, and 90's, seeming from the plates to peak in popularity in the mid 80's, so perhaps it was a fashion in the late 60's. I suppose if it was just long enough to curl a bit or tie off, that hairpieces could be added for other effects and it would still be fairly versatile cut for the fashion of the day. Unfortunately I don't have any textual references off the top of my head. I just remembered the visual examples and thought to bring them up. Now you have me curious, do you know how many of your total 5,000+ CdVs are of women in that age group? It might be an interresting statistic.... Julie Adams ------------------------------ End of H-Costume Digest V4 #62 ****************************** A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to subscribe to that instead, send the command lines: unsubscribe h-costume-digest subscribe h-costume end in the body of a message to majordomo@lunch.engr.sgi.com. Thanks and enjoy the list!