From: owner-h-costume-digest (H-Costume Digest) To: h-costume-digest@lunch.engr.sgi.com Subject: H-Costume Digest V4 #63 Reply-To: h-costume Sender: owner-h-costume-digest@lunch.engr.sgi.com Errors-To: owner-h-costume-digest@lunch.engr.sgi.com Precedence: bulk H-Costume Digest Monday, March 11 1996 Volume 4, Number 63 Compilation copyright (C) 1996 Diane Barlow Close and Gretchen Miller Use in whole prohibited. Individual articles are the property of the author. Seek permission from that author before reprinting or quoting elsewhere. Important Addresses: Send submissions to: h-costume@lunch.engr.sgi.com (or reply to this message). Adds/drops/archives: majordomo@lunch.engr.sgi.com Real, live person: h-costume-request@andrew.cmu.edu Topics: Re: Ornamentation question Men's & Ladies Costume for 1910 corset boning source Short hair for women New & young costumers & authenticity Droopy Bustlines Re: Droopy Bustlines Re: Lice and short hair Re: Short hair for women and book opinions Re: Corset boning source? Not RenFaire costumes, honestly Costume Con Membership FS Melton undercollars Re: Droopy Bustlines Oriental Costume boards ? corsets&large bust Picnic !?! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 10 Mar 1996 15:31:20 -0800 (PST) From: Heather Rose Jones Subject: Re: Ornamentation question On Sun, 10 Mar 1996, Heather Rose Jones wrote: > The Museum of Long "Dress Accessories" book is probably describing the ^^^^ Oops. That was, of course, "Museum of London". Sometimes my fingers have their own idea of what word I'm typing! Heather ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 10 Mar 1996 15:32:43 -0800 From: Bill_Trant@mindlink.bc.ca (Bill & Elaine Trant) Subject: Men's & Ladies Costume for 1910 My wife & I own a 1910 Buick Automobile and are trying to put together authentic costume for that specific year. We are aware that there are differences, although they may be subtle, between 1909, 1910 and 1911 costume. Does anyone have information on men's & ladies costume for 1910? We are wanting to put together a number of authentic costumes, each depicting what would be worn at various times of the day or at various functions, For example, motoring, formal, semi-formal, casual, sports sleeping, etc.. Information on such things as undergarments, footwear, hair styles, hats, jewelry, accessories, colours and types of fabrics, etc. as well as anything on the actual garments themselves would be of a great deal of help. As the costumes we are thinking about will be put to regular use it is our intention to reproduce them as accurately as possible using the same or similar fabrics and sewing techniques. If anyone knows of where patterns for the above type of garments might be available, that too would help immeasurably. Any help would be greatly appreciated. - -- Bill Trant, 2020 West 45th Avenue, Vancouver, BC, V6M 2H9 (604) 263-3351 ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 10 Mar 1996 21:02:26 -0500 (EST) From: RMITCHELL@washjeff.edu Subject: corset boning source them. I can also suggest that if you do not have a copy of The Whole Costumers Catalogue (412-632-3242), you are missing out on a great all-purpose resource referance! KSM_"needle-foot" @rmitchell ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 10 Mar 1996 19:35:33 -0800 (PST) From: Allan Terry Subject: Short hair for women Actually, after posting my last message I'm wondering if the front views in Victorian photos are confusing people. When most of the hair is pulled to the back and invisible in a front-view photo, this can give the effect of a more modern short haircut. I do not know of any mainstream short-haired fashions for adult women in the 1870s, 80s, or 90s. The 1870s, in fact, featured as much false hair as the 1860s. In the 1860s it usually took the form of massive chignons twisted or braided in any of many ways. In the 1870s, false hair took on a looser, more cascading look, often ending in a couple long curls down the back of the neck. Hairstyles often incorporated the woman's real hair along with the false (rather than covering all the real hair with a wig). But if any women chose to wear only enough hair to attach hairpieces to, I doubt they would have had themselves photographed without the hairpieces. Fran Grimble ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 Mar 1996 01:09:20 -0500 From: aquazoo@dcez.com (Ed Safford & Carol Kocian) Subject: New & young costumers & authenticity As an offshoot to the discussion on RenFaires.... In the original post, the youth of the women in the breast-revealing costumes was mentioned. It reminded me of my early days of medieval costume efforts. My thoughts went like this: I based my clothes on historic sources, with modifications to make them sexier. If someone didn't like them, obviously it was because she was not getting as much male attention. These are the same reasons that as a 16-year-old I wanted to wear a lot of makeup. The other teenagers looked good in it, and I wanted to look good, too. I didn't want to listen to my mother's comments about "the wrong kind of attention." Those who disapproved of my earlier garb must have reminded me of my mother! Whenever I wore revealing, inauthentic garb, I would get lots of comments. Mostly positive, mostly from men. When I wore more authentic garb (a bog dress, for example) I would get very little feedback. When I first joined a medieval group, I did some research & drew up some ideas. (I had studied theatrical costuming a bit in high school.) I showed them to the (male) leader of the group. He said all were OK, but he particularly seemed to like the revealing, fantasy-like sketch. He did not encourage the authentic ideas nor did he send me to consult with a more experienced costumer. I don't mean to blame men for all the evils in costuming, but many people are led to various historic groups by a boyfriend, girlfriend, or spouse. I've heard plenty of guys say "all you have to do is..." and give overly- simplistic instructions on how to dress. Some examples are "just throw a cloak over it" or "you can wear your 17thC stuff for Rev War, it's only 100 years later." It works the other way, too, when women are persuading men to join a group. The point of this note is that I was considering what people could have done to lead me to the path of authenticity sooner. The first (for groups) is not only to have written basic standards, but also to have a mentorship program to explain these standards & offer assistance. Encourage/require (depending on the organization) boyfriends, girlfriends or spouses of a group member to have a mentor of the same sex. (Yes, there are exceptions of people having expertise in the costume of the opposite sex and women dressing out as & playing the roles of men. But they may not know every aspect of duties, behavior, etc. Women-as-male- soldiers would benefit from the advice of other women doing the same.) Remember how you (the costume expert) will be perceived by the person in the questionable garb. A young woman (like I was) will think she looks good, and that wearing makeup & showing cleavage is a more mature look. Don't be afraid to talk to her, rather than nattering behind her back. If no negative or corrective comments are made directly to her, all she will hear are the positive comments. Secondhand comments are generally relayed as cattines & character assasination. When she does do something better, comment positively or it will be "just another piece of garb in the closet." Does anyone else have any suggestions or comments in this vein? -Carol Kocian, who still has the chainmail bikini. *^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^* This account is shared by Carol Kocian and Ed Safford. Carol can also be e-mailed at ckocian@epe.org Ed can be reached at ecsaffor@ingr.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 Mar 1996 01:08:46 -0500 From: aquazoo@dcez.com (Ed Safford & Carol Kocian) Subject: Droopy Bustlines This is a question for those who do Regency/Federal/Directorie costume. (1800-1815) As I have read, corsets were generally abandoned. There is, however, evidence of corsets existing for the era. One example is the bust-supporting garment in _Revolution In Fashion 1715-1815_, from The Kyoto Costume Institute. When large-busted women (today) wear this style with no bust support, the result is a droopy bustline. Though supported somewhat by the dress, the bottom of the breasts are lower than the waistline of the dress. I have not seen any period illustrations of the breasts drooping, but my sampling is fairly small. Does anyone know if large-busted women drooped in the time period, or were they the ones who would have been corseted? -Carol Kocian *^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^* This account is shared by Carol Kocian and Ed Safford. Carol can also be e-mailed at ckocian@epe.org Ed can be reached at ecsaffor@ingr.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 Mar 1996 06:38:55 -0500 From: Booboopies@aol.com Subject: Re: Droopy Bustlines There are many examples of Regency period stays. In addition to the examples in Revolution in Fashion, there are also diagrams in Corsets and Crinolines. Stays never really went out of fashion until the introduction of the bra, and that's just a step in the evolutionary process. Even during the flapper period when women were wearing bust flatteners, they were still wearing a garment to keep the breasts in place. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 Mar 1996 05:35:32 -0800 From: gwjchris@ix.netcom.com (Bill and Glenna Christen) Subject: Re: Lice and short hair You wrote: >I'm curious... How does one look at a photograph of an individual and >determine previous lice infestation? The only method that I'm aware >of is an individual scalp check, and even that doesn't indicate >previous infestation unless nits are still present. You are very right. I was taking short cuts in my comments. What I should have indicated was that it wasn't likely that so many young women so close in age during such a limited span of time (about 2 years) from such a wide range of locales all would suddenly have lice, then go and get their photograph taken. Also, their hair was obviously intentionally cut for a particular style, not just cut off to deal with a specific problem such as fever or lice. I know if I had to have my hair cut off back then as a result of lice infestation I would be in no hurry to have my picture taken to remind me of the incident! What I was actually looking for was mention in the fashion literature of the time commenting one way or another on what appears to be another of those short lived fad such as the one in the Regency period. I've read of no reference to it in the same sources that mention that fashion. Thanks for your comments. Are there any more out there? Glenna Jo Christen gwjchris@ix.netcom.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 Mar 1996 06:28:40 -0800 From: gwjchris@ix.netcom.com (Bill and Glenna Christen) Subject: Re: Short hair for women and book opinions Fran... Thank you for your response in which... You wrote: >I suspect the women with short hair in _Who Wore What_ are younger than late >teens/early 20s; in other words, girls rather than women. There is a clear difference in both face and figure that occurs during adolescence as you well know. Having carefully examined the photos I refer to and the photos of girls, and knowing what I know about clothing of this, admittedly narrow, time period (1850's-1865), I am very sure these are not girls, but young women. >I believe it was customary for many Victorian girls to wear their hair in a >short, easy-care style. When they began to grow up (probably when they >entered their teens) they began to grow their hair out, so they could put it >up when they came out into society. As I mentioned, these young women are past the stage where they "put their hair up, let their skirts down and accept gentlemen callers." One young woman is actually holding an infant in her lap and she is wearing a plain gold band on her left hand. Also these hair styles are nothing like the cropped hairstyle of the younger girl. These women are all wearing a layered bobbed style. Also the fact that the photos were all taken during a fairly short span of time indicates a fad. I'm just looking for a reference from the fashion literature of the time or something on that order to confirm this for me. It's just my idle curiousity promped by the short hair question on the list. >...hairpieces were perfectly acceptable. They were very commonly worn by women of all ages, not just if their hair didn't grow fast enough. >(Cutting hair during illness reduced combing and washing problems; washing a >sick person must have been especially difficult before modern plumbing.) Based on period sources, they cut the hair as a means to reduce fever not for ease of washing. Shampooing hair was something that was, by our standards at least, rarely done. Mrs. Beeton, in her famous 1861 book of household management recommended a concoction as "A good wash for the hair" that had borax as a major ingredient in it. It was to be rubbed into the hair with strips of flannel then the hair was to be combed or brushed. Hardly what I would consider "washing" :-)! >I strongly recommend _Dressed for the Photographer: Ordinary Americans and >Fashion, 1840-1890_, by Joan Severa We got ours in the pre-publication offer. I agree it is an excellent book and it is an important part of our costume and history library. >on that period than _Who Wore What_. Plus, many subjects are identified, so >(unlike Leisch's book) the information on what ages, social classes, >etc. wear which clothes is solid. It would be very nice if all the thousands of images Juanita studied were so neatly ID'd as some of the select few Ms. Severa used were, but they weren't. I feel "Who Wore What" is an excellent book for the audience it was written for; Civil War reenactors and living history interpreters. Yes, there are some flaws as there are in all books. Yes, judging ages is quite subjective, but there is a big difference between someone who looks 18 and someone who looks 38. That's a conservative contrast, in my experience, between the ages of women in period photos wearing what I call the "reenactor's uniform" of a white shirt and skirt with a jacket or at least a belt) and the modern women who wear it. All the evidence I've encountered agrees with most of Juanita's book. As I said, all books have their flaws. I for one question how Ms. Severa knows that a dress is trimmed in a certain color unless she has seen the actual garment. She's looking at a black and white photo. She made statements like this in a couple of places in her book. This doesn't decrease the value of the book for me by any means. Now if you want to pan a book, why not go after Kristina Harris's book "Victorian Edwardian Fashions for Women: 1840 to 1919." Now there is a book with serious problems! For me, the main use for it is to see some of the fabrics and colors used for dresses. Other than that it is so full of glaring errors it makes my hair stand up on end. I'm sure there are many other books out there far more in need of attack as Juanita's book. I personally think it is an excellent resource and I recommend it to all the women I know who are involved in Civil War living history. I'm sorry you have so much difficulty seeing it's merits, but it's good we live in a country where we all have so much freedom to disagree in an open manner. It's just too bad that e-mail tends to turn into a fire fight if someone does have a different opinion! ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 Mar 1996 06:52:46 -0800 (PST) From: Katy Bishop Subject: Re: Corset boning source? On Sun, 10 Mar 1996 Morghana@aol.com wrote: > Can anyone recommend a good source of 1/2' flat steel corset boning? I'd > really prefer coated bones if possible. Greenberg and Hammer, Inc. 24 West 57th Street New York, NY 10019-3918 1-(800)-955-5135 Bones, 1/2" and 1/4", cotton boning casing, busks, prompt service (2-3 days if in stock), friendly service. Katy Bishop, Vintage Victorian vintage@netcom.com Authentic reproduction gowns of the Victorian Era. ------------------------------ Date: 11 Mar 96 10:43:00 GMT From: Mrs C S Yeldham Subject: Not RenFaire costumes, honestly Re turkeys, just to be boring, the first English reference is in the 1550s I understand. Archbishop Cranmer served them at a feast. Re how will the future see us. My local museum has a photograph of a 'medieval picnic' done in the 1880s or 1890s - and gues what it looks like! I wonder how future reenactors will see our period efforts! Reading 'Seeing through clothes' again (which has been mentioned often on this list, I suspect one of the differences is which parts of the female body are seen as sexual. She says 15th and 16th women emphasised their bellies, and the pictures reflect that, our period is keen on breasts and legs (I wonder how that comes out - maybe its part of the women playing men phenomenon?). Future centuries may well have other sexual focuses and see our focus on breasts as odd as well as inauthentic. Caroline ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 Mar 1996 07:26:04 -0800 (PST) From: Catnip Subject: Costume Con Membership FS Due to circumstances beyond my control, I will be unable to attend Costume Con in Seattle. If anyone would like to buy my membership for what I paid for it ($35), please drop me a note and we can discuss the details. Thanks! - - Dorothy ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 Mar 1996 14:41:43 GMT From: "Paul C. Dickie" Subject: Melton undercollars I expect that, by looking through umpteen reference works, I might be able to find the answer to this question; however, as I'm essentially lazy -- and otherwise too busy with other matters to spend days looking through a library - -- it seems to make sense to ask the folk of this group... What I'd like to know is when did the underside of men's coat collars start to be made of melton -- rather than of the fabric of the rest of the coat, or of the rest of the collar or lapel -- and just why was this done? < Paul > ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 Mar 1996 15:49:41 GMT From: "Todd A. Brun" Subject: Re: Droopy Bustlines Carol Kocian writes: > This is a question for those who do Regency/Federal/Directorie >costume. (1800-1815) As I have read, corsets were generally abandoned. >There is, however, evidence of corsets existing for the era. One example is >the bust-supporting garment in _Revolution In Fashion 1715-1815_, from The >Kyoto Costume Institute. I am, emphatically, not an expert on this subject; but my girlfriend is very knowledgeable, and I have picked up a fair bit from her. From her own research she has come to the conclusion that corsets were out of fashion for a fairly brief period, mostly pre-Regency, and that not all women abandoned them even then. From about 1812 (I think) it seems that they were pretty much the norm again, though the exact style of corset changed somewhat with time. In particular, the ``divorce corset'' (nothing to do with the lamentable decline in the married state) came in around 1814 or 1815, probably from French influence after the end of the war. The early 19th century look of high waistlines, low bustlines, and light, drapery fabric was not equally flattering to all figures, of course, nor was it especially practical for Northern Europe, which might explain why it went out after about 1820. (Though fashion seems to pay little heed to climate -- the number of women running around London in miniskirts and tights in the middle of winter is a source of perpetual astonishment to me.) I hope this is helpful -- any mistakes are my fault, of course. -- Todd Brun ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 Mar 96 09:25:35 PST From: michael.di.matteo@autodesk.com Subject: Oriental Costume boards ? _Does anyone know of any boards that deal with "Japanese Clothing" I enjoy reading all of the information that is posted, but I am more into Japanese clothing rather than early American or European clothing. Any help is most appreciated. Mike Di Matteo ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 Mar 1996 12:23:37 -0500 From: SyRilla@aol.com Subject: corsets&large bust My knowledgeable friends, HELP!!! I am attempting to make a corset for a larger woman. Can anyone give me any suggestion? Where do they place all of the breast? Do the bonings get place diffrently. I have made corsets for myself, but I'm 31", 24", 32". Big difference. Another question. When was pink, and pastels first widely used? Thank you, Kimberly SyRilla ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 Mar 1996 12:17:40 -0500 (EST) From: Sharron Fina Subject: Picnic !?! Caroline et al., When DID a "picnic" become a thing to do? I can visualize it back to about mid-1700's, but it just doesn't seem to mix with the earlier period (probably a hangover of bad history classes). The only thing I can mentally equate with a picnic is the "royals" on an outing because they can't stand being in the drafty castle another day! It probably took a few days to arrange a "spur of the moment" outing, too. I don't see the lower class packing up a few barbequed rats for a quick trip to the forest or the beach. Any input from out there? Sharron Fina sfina@retina.anatomy.upenn.edu Department of Neuroscience University of Pennsylvania Philadelphia, PA 19104 ------------------------------ End of H-Costume Digest V4 #63 ****************************** A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to subscribe to that instead, send the command lines: unsubscribe h-costume-digest subscribe h-costume end in the body of a message to majordomo@lunch.engr.sgi.com. Thanks and enjoy the list!