From: owner-h-costume-digest (H-Costume Digest) To: h-costume-digest@lunch.engr.sgi.com Subject: H-Costume Digest V4 #66 Reply-To: h-costume Sender: owner-h-costume-digest@lunch.engr.sgi.com Errors-To: owner-h-costume-digest@lunch.engr.sgi.com Precedence: bulk H-Costume Digest Tuesday, March 12 1996 Volume 4, Number 66 Compilation copyright (C) 1996 Diane Barlow Close and Gretchen Miller Use in whole prohibited. Individual articles are the property of the author. Seek permission from that author before reprinting or quoting elsewhere. Important Addresses: Send submissions to: h-costume@lunch.engr.sgi.com (or reply to this message). Adds/drops/archives: majordomo@lunch.engr.sgi.com Real, live person: h-costume-request@andrew.cmu.edu Topics: Re: H-Costume Digest V4 #64 Re: Picnics Re: Short Hair for Women? Re: H-Costume Digest V4 #64 15th-16thCentury Scottish Garb Re: Short Hair for Women? Living History Groups Re: Short Hair for Women? Picnics Re: Picnics Re: Short Hair for Women? Re: Re: Short hair for women? Re: Dress/Italy 1300-1600 conference Re: Dress/Italy 1300-1600 conference Picnic?! Re: varied Re: Corsets & big busts (fwd) Re: Dress/Italy 1300-1600 conference ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 12 Mar 96 10:46:49 GMT From: Alan Braggins Subject: Re: H-Costume Digest V4 #64 > FYI: Although turkeys are native to Northern America (loved the pun), they > were brought back to England within "Faire" period and eaten Whether an Elizabethan would have recognised modern domestic turkeys as the same bird is another question. Anyone who has eaten wild turkey care to comment? (And suggest approximations - I've never seen wild turkey on sale in England. My understanding is turkeys were called turkeys because they resembled guineafowl which at the time were thought to come from Turkey, but I don't know how close the resemblance is). > My aunt-in-law was preparing an Easter ham. She put the ham on the cutting > board and neatly sliced off about one inch of each end of the haunch and > then put the ham into the roasting pan. As her mother and I watched this > procedure, I asked her why she did that. She turned to my granmother-in-law > and said "Because Mom always made hams that way and they always came out > great". Her Mom started laughing hysterically, saying "I cut the ends off > the hams because the whole ham didn't fit in MY roasting pan!" I've read this story before (though your family could be the original source of what is now an urban legend). There may be more than one message there. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 Mar 1996 10:23:50 -0600 From: mkwhitak@facstaff.wisc.edu (Kathy Whitaker) Subject: Re: Picnics I don't remember if the original question asked about only Western European references to picnics, but I have a lovely print of an Oriental painting which shows people eating near a winding row of trees. The title on the print is "Picnicing (sp?) by the Bamboo Stream" (I assume they mean the trees - they kind of look like a stream) and it says it's from the Yung Yung Ching dynasty (hope I'm getting that right, I'm doing it from memory at work). Kathy ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 Mar 1996 10:44:14 -0600 (CST) From: Barbara Johannessen Subject: Re: Short Hair for Women? I finally remembered where I saw the reference to short hair for women (as opposed to girls) during the 1860's-70's!! Little Women!! Yes, it's nominally fiction, but as I understand it, it's fiction the same way the "Little House" books are; that is, it's fictionalized autobiography. IIRC, in one chapter, Jo and Meg are getting ready to go to a ball, and Jo accidently burns off Meg's hair with a curling iron. They comb it, fluff it and she goes anyway. The ball-goers are largely people of a higher economic class than the March girls, but I don't remember that any stigma is attached to Meg's short hair. Also, in another chapter, Jo is feeling bad about money, and sells her hair to a woman who operates a wig and hairpiece store. Again,IIRC, her family's reaction is along the lines of 'You shouldn't have!' and her response is 'My head feels so light, and it will be so much easier to take care of.' That doesn't seem to be the reaction I'd expect if it were somehow scandalous for a woman to have short hair, just that it isn't everybody's fashion. On the same tack, wasn't O.Henry's "The Gift of the Magi" also set about the same time (late 19th Century)? There again, the woman sells her hair to make some money. There is disappointment on her husband's part, (he was proud enough of her hair that he sold his watch to buy her combs) but not really any disapproval. my $.02 Barbara Bailey ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 Mar 1996 12:28:01 -0500 (EST) From: Judy Gerjuoy Subject: Re: H-Costume Digest V4 #64 > > FYI: Although turkeys are native to Northern America (loved the pun), they > > were brought back to England within "Faire" period and eaten > Whether an Elizabethan would have recognised modern domestic turkeys as the > same bird is another question. Anyone who has eaten wild turkey care to > comment? (And suggest approximations - I've never seen wild turkey on sale in > England. My understanding is turkeys were called turkeys because they > resembled guineafowl which at the time were thought to come from Turkey, > but I don't know how close the resemblance is). Modern turkeys don't *taste* anything like wild ones - but I believe that except for size (modern ones are *a lot* larger) they look pretty much the same. Judy/Jaelle jaelle@access.digex.net ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 Mar 1996 09:40:35 -0800 (PST) From: ae395@freenet.unbc.edu (Nanette Rioux) Subject: 15th-16thCentury Scottish Garb I have enjoyed reading the list for a short time now, and plan to stay on for quite a time as I really enjoy the level of information that is exchanged here, even though only a part of the contents applies to my costuming interests (I am in the SCA). But for now, I do have a question. What was a middle class woman of 15th-17th Century Scotland (particularly of the highlands) likely to wear under the arisaid. I have heard that a chemise and overskirt with a vest/jerkin is appropriate, but I need more specific details, as to colors, and style of said garments. I have been informed that the fashion, in at least part of this period, was influenced by the french, especially for court. How would this reflect on wedding clothes of that period? I am getting married in May, and would like to approximate the wedding clothes from that period. My fiancee will be wearing the belted plaid. Any and all information will be appreciated. As I receive this list in digest form, could you reply to me as well as to the list, to facilitate further discussion and banter with those who reply? Thank you!! Nanette Rioux, known in the SCA as - -- Sexburga the Shameless,:) Maker of Magic Cider, and prone to Frivolous Posts (and a TWIT, nonetheless!!!) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 Mar 1996 13:09:20 -0500 (EST) From: Judy Gerjuoy Subject: Re: Short Hair for Women? On Tue, 12 Mar 1996, Barbara Johannessen wrote: > I finally remembered where I saw the reference to short hair for women (as > opposed to girls) during the 1860's-70's!! > > Little Women!! > IIRC, in one chapter, Jo and Meg are getting ready to go to a ball, and Jo > accidently burns off Meg's hair with a curling iron. They comb it, fluff it > and she goes anyway. The ball-goers are largely people of a higher > economic class than the March girls, but I don't remember that any stigma > is attached to Meg's short hair. Well, in that case it is just Meg's bangs that are burnt - not all of her hair. > Also, in another chapter, Jo is feeling bad about money, and sells her hair > to a woman who operates a wig and hairpiece store. Again,IIRC, her > family's reaction is along the lines of 'You shouldn't have!' and her > response is 'My head feels so light, and it will be so much easier to > take care of.' That doesn't seem to be the reaction I'd expect if it > were somehow scandalous for a woman to have short hair, just that it > isn't everybody's fashion. This one is a good point. But, remember, some women did cut there hair short - illness, etc. so, it *was* seen, just not frequently. Jaelle jaelle@access.digex.net If the world were merely seductive, that would be easy. If it were merely challenging, that would be no problem. But I arise in the morning torn between a desire to improve the world, and a desire to enjoy the world. This makes it hard to plan the day. - E. B. White ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 Mar 1996 10:01:22 -0800 From: Joan Broneske Subject: Living History Groups I realize this is slightly off topic, but I would like some advice from the group. I belong to a 19th century Living History group which is pretty fledgling. Lately, there has been a lot of tension going on, mainly because of the director. She is paid by the city to be the director of the group and so we cannot "vote" her out. Anyway, she is a very nice person BUT, she is chronically disorganized, = she deals with conflict by telling people "I'm a very sensitive person = and I wear my heart on my sleeve, so please be careful how you say = things to me", when she comes up with ideas for things, she changes her = mind on it about 100 times before the event actually happens and when = people are dying to help out and take some of the pressure off of her = for things, she refuses to relinquish control to other people, as if = they aren't intelligent enough or creative enough to have good ideas. I love the people in this group and I really don't want to quit, but I = cannot handle this woman! Does anyone else who belongs to other groups = have any advice on how to handle this, short of quitting? I would = appreciate any and all input. Thanks, Joan ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 Mar 96 10:23:00 PST From: Mirabelle Severn & Thames Subject: Re: Short Hair for Women? From: Barbara Johannessen To: h-costume@lunch.engr.sgi.com Subject: Re: Short Hair for Women? I finally remembered where I saw the reference to short hair for women... Little Women!!... IIRC, in one chapter, Jo and Meg are getting ready to go to a ball, and Jo accidently burns off Meg's hair with a curling iron. They comb it, fluff it and she goes anyway. ... Actually, Jo only burns off Meg's front hair (essentially giving her very short, frizzy bangs, which they cover with a bow). The majority of her hair is safely pinned up. Also, in another chapter, Jo is feeling bad about money, and sells her hair... [Her family doesn't seem to show] the reaction I'd expect if it were somehow scandalous for a woman to have short hair, just that it isn't everybody's fashion. The March family (like the Alcott family) held very progressive ideas, so we can't necessarily judge whether the rest of society would consider something improper by society by whether the Marches did it. (Even if we could consider LM Alcott's books non-fiction, which we really can't.) However, as you point out, the subject of selling hair does come up in another story, "The Gift of the Magi", and in _Little Women_, Jo only gets the idea of selling her hair because she sees a piece in the shop window, "longer but not so thick as mine". So, where *did* real-hair pieces come from? Surely not from women who cut their hair for a fever? They weren't just put together over years, like hair pictures, from hair that stayed in the combs and brushes, were they? Naomi Brokaw from California's central coast ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 Mar 1996 10:50:33 -0800 From: kondoa@ucs.orst.edu Subject: Picnics I mainly do Japanese clothing resarch & I've run across a lot of "picnic" pictures depicting people going maple viewing when the leaves turned or cherry blossom viewing in spring. I don't have the exact reference handy, but at one of these outdoor events, it was customary to take some of your best kimono with you, not to wear, but to hang in the trees around your picnicing spot, partly as decorative banners, partly to boast about the quality of kimono in your wardrobe. Alison ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 Mar 1996 11:52:06 -0800 (PST) From: Agnes Gawne Subject: Re: Picnics Jane Austen definitely describes a picnic in _Emma_, the section known as the "Picnic at Box Hill". As I recall it is a very witty passage and worth a re-read. Agnes ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 Mar 1996 12:18:06 -0800 (PST) From: Agnes Gawne Subject: Re: Short Hair for Women? This is an early twentieth century reference, but my grandmother and her sisters often sold their hair to wigmakers. This would have been in Ireland at about the turn of the century. Apparently they got good money for it, especially the blonds and strawberry blonds, there were ten sisters in the family. My grandmother had very dark hair which didn't pay as well because that colour was also available in the orient, (according to the man who came through the town and bought their hair.) I don't know how common this was or anything about dates or actual amount of hair or money exchanged. I'm just relating a story told by my grandmother . I still have one swatch of hair that was my great-aunt's. It matches my hair perfectly. I am glad she didn't sell it all but had one piece made into a hairpiece for herself which I often wear when dressed in historical costume. Agnes ------------------------------ Date: 12 Mar 1996 10:51:59 GMT From: Margo_Mead@pmug.org (Margo Mead) Subject: Re: Re: Short hair for women? In a recent issue of Civil War Lady (Number13, picked up in Oct. at Cedar Creek), is an article by J. Wong, "Short and Sickly or Short and Sassy?" She looked through a collection of 600 CDV's of women. Of these, only 8 had short hair. She said they had these characteristics in common: 1. Center Parts 2. Lack of bangs on the forehead 3. Hair "sleeked" to the head 4. Worn by younger women 5. Lack of hair accessories/nets 6. Minor variations Her conclusion was that a very small percentage of young women had short hair. "If numerous women begin wearing short hairstyles at events, the numbers will be excessive....However, I am of the school of thought that if short hair is styled correctly, it is much preferable to wearing your hair incorrectly or ineffectively styled." "Critics of reenactresses with 'I sincerely try as hard as I can, but I obviously have short hair' appearance, need to be less critical in accepting women wearing short hair. The photographs do show it. If we aren't 'fooling' you with our fake hairstyle--it isn't 'fooling' the spectators and we are doing everyone a disservice." "I am sure some will prefer to see the misinterpretation of the 'snood' being worn rather than a short style done correctly." Interesting article. Another option offered in this article is styling short hair with a wiglet at the back of one's head and covered by a correct style net. She also has a sidebar with instructions on how to style short hair correctly. Her conclusions about why women wore short hair was that it was not reformists, not illness, not mental illness, but simply an alternative hairstyle taken up mostly by young women because they are the most likely to "break convention and adopt new styles." She does not believe that they were ostracized for their choice in hairstyles. She feels that reenactresses should not be either. Margo_Mead@pmug.org - - sent via an evaluation copy of BulkRate (unregistered). ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 Mar 1996 16:32:17 -0500 (EST) From: Astrida E B Schaeffer Subject: Re: Dress/Italy 1300-1600 conference Me too, too! (Boy, do I wish I were in England.....) Astrida Schaeffer "All life on Earth is a fairy tale in which outlandish creatures pursue impossible lives" - Rutherford Platt ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 Mar 96 16:00:00 CST From: "Lassman, Linda" Subject: Re: Dress/Italy 1300-1600 conference Add my name to the list, too, please! I am *so* jealous of those of you who will be able to attend! On Mon, 11 Mar 1996, Kathy Whitaker wrote: > I am very interested in any information available on this conference, also - > I would appreciate a copy of any details available. > > Many thanks, > > Kathy > - Linda Lassman Winnipeg, Manitoba ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 Mar 1996 14:03:08 -0800 From: Cin Subject: Picnic?! You asked when picnics became popular, I suspect they've had their moments thru the centuries. Horace (died 8 BCE) says: "We washed our hands and face in Feronia's holy spring. Then after breakfast we crawled three miles up to Anxur" (Satires I.5) In the rest of this poem, he mentions every other inn or house he dines at so, by omission, I presume this is outdoor dining. What may amuse you more, is a fun woodcut/ drawing in "An Illustrated History of French Cuisine"p. 29. Infuriatingly, the picture is undated and unattributed. Argh! Could be 12th or 13th c as the accompanying text discusses the mode in food then. Upon a round table set before a couple is a small snack. Three musicians both seated & standing amuse them. They appear to be in a canopied hottub as they're both compleatly naked (except for his hat) and not the least bit shy about it. Gotta be the winner for dining en plein air! Expecting at a RenFaire near you.. - --cin cin@netuser.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 Mar 1996 17:46:05 -0500 From: Booboopies@aol.com Subject: Re: varied Milla Davenport, in The History of Costume (hope I've got the title right, I know it's Davenport), talks about the mini Ice Age that send a glacier gradually gobbling up great parts of Grindelwald in Switzerland during the third quarter of the 16th century and did not recede until sometime in the 18th! Completely swallowed a village and part of a forest, I think. It was undoubtedly the cause of many young Swiss emigrating to America in the early 18th century. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 Mar 1996 16:09:54 -0700 (MST) From: Sofia Subject: Re: Corsets & big busts (fwd) In the movie "On A Clear Day You Can See Forever" Barbara Streisand wore a goregous gown cut down to really show off her bustline. Was that dress an accurate style of the Regency period (or any other period?) or just Hollywood sex? It was wonderful, but I couldn't figure out where and how they worked out the support issue! Hi Sharon (from Phoenix) - ---I just saw the movie again and loved it! I write Regencies, and yes, IMO, I was impressed with the research. Although I thought the turbans with sequins and trimmings were a little overdone. The Brighton scene with Prinny at the Royal Pavilions appeared accurate. The scene near the end when Barbra is wearing an almost flesh-colored, diaphanous gown seems close to the Regency period. As far as bust support, they "could" have used "bones" curved underneath and either glued or taped on. Sofia (just down the road apiece in Prescott) jtst@bslnet.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 Mar 1996 16:59:49 -0600 (CST) From: The Espresso Pegasus! Subject: Re: Dress/Italy 1300-1600 conference When is this costume confrence in England?. ( accidentaly deleted the origial post) Also, I will be traveling through france, northern Spain, and England from around May 15- June 3rd (give or take a few days..) Could anyone point me in the direction of good costume/history/mediveal sites, and museums/events that I *should* go see? I have been through the Louvre, and a few of the main things... in france.. It will be my first trip to england, and I wanna see cool stuff! cool period stuff! Any points or recommendations for cafes nice places to be in or escape to Would also be helpful. Thanks! Sarahj ______________________.oO*Oo._______________________ You Can Fret Me, But You Cannot Play Upon Me--Hamlet ------------------------------ End of H-Costume Digest V4 #66 ****************************** A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to subscribe to that instead, send the command lines: unsubscribe h-costume-digest subscribe h-costume end in the body of a message to majordomo@lunch.engr.sgi.com. Thanks and enjoy the list!