From: owner-h-costume-digest (H-Costume Digest) To: h-costume-digest@lunch.engr.sgi.com Subject: H-Costume Digest V4 #67 Reply-To: h-costume Sender: owner-h-costume-digest@lunch.engr.sgi.com Errors-To: owner-h-costume-digest@lunch.engr.sgi.com Precedence: bulk H-Costume Digest Tuesday, March 12 1996 Volume 4, Number 67 Compilation copyright (C) 1996 Diane Barlow Close and Gretchen Miller Use in whole prohibited. Individual articles are the property of the author. Seek permission from that author before reprinting or quoting elsewhere. Important Addresses: Send submissions to: h-costume@lunch.engr.sgi.com (or reply to this message). Adds/drops/archives: majordomo@lunch.engr.sgi.com Real, live person: h-costume-request@andrew.cmu.edu Topics: Materials re: off-topic posts Re: 15th-16thCentury Scottish Garb Re: Dress/Italy 1300-1600 conference RE: Regency corsets (was Droopy...) Costume seminar in southern Ontario Re: Dress/Italy 1300-1600 conference Irish ladies gown Re: Short Hair for Women? Re: Video Re: Short Hair for Women? Re: H-Costume Digest V4 #63 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 12 Mar 1996 18:19:24 -0500 From: HMHousman@aol.com Subject: Materials This may or may not be helpful, but I've done several Elizabethan brocade foreparts. When I go fabric hunting I stay away from the what modern fabric stores call Jaquards because they tend to be silky polyesters and rayons designed mainly for blouses and the like. I've never seen a Jaqard that had a natural enough fabric content to be used for any kind of historical costume. (But I'm a snob...) Furthermore, modern Jaquards have a liberal definition about what kinds of patterns can be woven into them; I've seen some astonishing designs - - abstract florals seem to be the rage! The brocades I look at are heavy, relatively stiff fabrics, usually cotton and cotton blends. Upholstery and Home Dec stores usually have a better selection because brocades are often used for drapes and chairs. Since I do Elizabethan fashion I keep to the geometric designs, but once again a liberal definition about design patterns applies in modern fabric stores. Certainly metalic threads can be woven into brocades, but by and large most don't. Keep in mind when looking at brocades that they are a "two sided fabric," which means you can flip themt over and see the design reversed. Hope it helps! Have a great day!! Heather Housman ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 Mar 96 18:25:19 est From: Hilary_Oak_at_SLU1@ccmaillink.stlawu.edu Subject: re: off-topic posts Pardon me, but aren't discussions of picnics and turkeys a bit removed from the topic of costume history? __________ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 Mar 1996 15:09:09 -0800 From: KaosWarior@vcnet.com Subject: Re: 15th-16thCentury Scottish Garb >I have enjoyed reading the list for a short time now, and plan to stay on >for quite a time as I really enjoy the level of information that is >exchanged here, even though only a part of the contents applies to my >costuming interests (I am in the SCA). But for now, I do have a question. > >What was a middle class woman of 15th-17th Century Scotland (particularly >of the highlands) likely to wear under the arisaid. I have heard that a >chemise and overskirt with a vest/jerkin is appropriate, but I need more >specific details, as to colors, and style of said garments. I have been >informed that the fashion, in at least part of this period, was influenced >by the french, especially for court. How would this reflect on wedding >clothes of that period? I am getting married in May, and would like to >approximate the wedding clothes from that period. My fiancee will be >wearing the belted plaid. Any and all information will be appreciated. >As I receive this list in digest form, could you reply to me as well as >to the list, to facilitate further discussion and banter with those who >reply? Thank you!! > >Nanette Rioux, >known in the SCA as > HI, I've been involved with a group that portrays 15th cen. Scottish highland & Irish renactment @ the so. california ren faires & such. And I thought you might like to know that many our group including the master seamstress (?) Had gone to Dublin to particpate in the LARGE, millenium festivities, (parades, feasting,& the like [lucky buggers ;) ]) that were held for ther city's 1000th B-Day. Please find enclosed where to write the Foremost Seamstress of "GLENNATIEGH" pronouced(knowing gaelic, as we all do, is not phonic ;) glen tee http://users.aimnet.com/~dtowner/gt.html cargill@ix.netcom.com ---------- / / --------------- O O TO BOLDY SCOOT, WHERE NO MAN HATH SCOOTED BEFORE! ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 13 Mar 1996 09:40:17 +1000 (EST) From: Carolyn Fraser Subject: Re: Dress/Italy 1300-1600 conference I've had so many requests for more information, that I've decided to post the rest of the information here. The conference Dress and Visual Culture in Italy 1300-1600 is a two day conference organised by the Medieval Dress and Textile Society in association with the Courtauld Institue, and will take place on 21 and 22 June 1996 at the Courtauld Institute. Bookings are to be made before the 1st of June, cheques payable to University of London, admission #55 (sorry no pound symbol!), and should be posted to: Lisa Monnas (Mrs) 16, Aubrey Walk London W8 7JG In addition to the papers I listed yesterday, the programme includes: (* denotes paper delivered in Italian- transalation provided at the conference) *- Dr Rosalia Varoli-Piazza The Altar Frontal of Sixtus IV, from the drawing to the finished embroidery, suggestions for a conservation methodology *- Dr Rosanna Rosicarello Weaving Techniques and Conservation treatment, the Altar Frontal of Sixtus IV - Luca Mola Conservatism and Innovation in the Silk Industry of Renaissance Venice - Kay Lacey A Brief Survey of English Publications and Research on Anglo-Italian Commercial Relations in the late Medieval Period - Patrick Chorley Camlet in the 16th C *- Dr Paolo Bensi Dyes and Pigments for Dyeing and Painting *- Dr Maria Rosa Montiani Bensi 16thC Ligurian Painting, a glimpse of the East *- Professor Salvatore Tramontana Dress, Society and Power in Medieval Sicily *- Dr Grazietta Butazzi Hairstyling in the Po area, courtly fashion, social diffusion, religious symbolism and classical references When I find out more, I'll post it. If anyone else gets copies of the papers before me, please let us all know. Carolyn Fraser Brisbane, Australia ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 Mar 1996 18:35:59 -0500 From: webalder@niagara.com (David Webb & Sheridan Alder) Subject: RE: Regency corsets (was Droopy...) While I rather suspect most women did not abandon the corset in the early 19th century (does anyone else remember the "anti-bra" of the early 70's - they're stilling making them under different names - you would retain the fashionable "jiggle" of the bra-less look but could still run for the bus without slapping yourself (or anyone else)in the face) as late as 1811 the author of the beauty advice book "Mirror of the Graces" was advising against the wearing of corsets unless you were elderly or "en bon point". Granted, she was against corsets which deformed or exaggerated the body (are there any other kind?)What I found fascinating was that the author attributed breast ulcers and cancers to the wearing of corsets, particularly boned corsets! due to the pressing of the metal upon the flesh. Some time ago (OK - it was the 70's again) I read a feminist tome that claimed that bras caused cancer. (Evidence - offered - Eskimo women didn't wear bras and had lower rates of cancer) And just a few weeks ago some doctor on television was claiming that underwire bras will cause breast cancer, due to the pressing of the metal...you get the picture. Cheerful topic - if you're like me you've just unhooked your bra! I also rather suspect that most of the commentators on the corsetless fashionable ladies of this period were suffering from the "culture shock" of the adoption of the "Regency" corset, a la Hunnisett and the Age of Revolution compared to the funnel/cone 18th century corset. While still a "sheath" the later one is more "natural". It's interesting: some commentators praise the new fashions and the banishment of ugly stiff stays, while other decry it. Louis Simond comments, during his travels in Scotland c. 1811, that Scottish women were wearing "vile stiff stays". In the "Memoirs of Harriette Wilson" the "kept" heroine disguises herself as a country girl to meet her lover, but a friend comments that her stays are "too well-made" and betray her disguise. It seems that working-class stays would not have fit as well as a well and fashionably made lady's corset. There is an interesting article about stays by Peter and Ann MacTaggart in "Costume". Unfortunately I photocopied it in haste, and failed to note the volume or issue. In 1800 a Martha Gibbon patented her stays and a drawing of the stay with side fastening is included. The article discussed an 1803 stay patent as well as advertised stays of this period. (Now, if there are any keeners out there, you could probably purchase a copy of the patent from the British Patent Office and reproduce these corsets!) Someone (I forget who) described the Regency style as high-waisted and low-bosomed (again, as I recall). Both the fashion illustrations and the caricaturists of the period depict the bosom uplifted (and uplifting for the male population, no doubt). I also detect a tendency to point east and west, as opposed to straight ahead, if you take my meaning. Since I've only got as far as cutting out my "Regency" corset, I can't say if it will accomplish this stunning effect. So much sewing, so little time! Sheridan Alder webalder@niagara.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 Mar 1996 18:50:16 -0500 From: webalder@niagara.com (David Webb & Sheridan Alder) Subject: Costume seminar in southern Ontario While this is not quite as splendiferous as the British conference everyone is ohhing and ahhing about, it may be of interest to costumers in southern Ontario - The Jordan Historical Museum of the Twenty ((905) 562-5242) have organized a seminar on 19th century costume run by a curator from the Bata Shoe Museum (who is, I believe, a collector of costume himself) on March 16, noon to 4:00 p.m. at the Lincoln Town Hall. Doesn't it sound quaint?) The fee is $5.00 (which is about 1.37 in U.S. funds). I don't have any connection with the Jordan Museum. I'm sorry I didn't post this before, but I've had major problems logging on. !#*%! Internet provider! Sheridan Alder webalder@niagara.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 Mar 1996 17:04:30 -0800 (PST) From: close (Diane Barlow Close) Subject: Re: Dress/Italy 1300-1600 conference Lassman, Linda wrote: > Add my name to the list, too, please! I am *so* jealous of those of you who > will be able to attend! Rather than "me too'ing" to the list, which is very bad net etiquette as well as being wasteful of machine resources, write directly to the person who posted the info ( and ) or wait for the info to be posted to the list. I'm sure it will, since many have expressed an interest by private e-mail. More "me too's" are just wasteful. Thanks! - -- Diane Close I'm at lunch all day. :-) If a Canadian Had Said It First (The Globe & Mail): "The price of freedom is eternal vigilance plus GST." ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 Mar 1996 18:30:29 GMT From: christyg@cwnet.com (Gilbreath, Christine) Subject: Irish ladies gown Hello, I am working a booth at the Southern CA Ren Faire this year in which it would be more appropriate for me to wear the outfit I only know as the Irish ladies gown. I have done the English side of things and am familiar with that, but I don't have the Irish gown info. Here are my questions: 1. Chemise - What is the neckline like? - How much fabric is in the sleaves? I.e. How long should they reach? Knees? What length for the gathering up the top of the arm? - I've seen the sleaves gathered by running two cords through a "tape" or wide ribbon. Also versions that are cross laced. How are they cross laced? What is the most appropriate way to gather up the sleaves anyway? - Most seem to be made of a sturdier weight cotton.What might work? How sheer is this garment? 2. Gown (Kertle???(sp?)) - Is the neck scooped or squared? - Is the shirt cartridged pleated into the bodice or fitted a-line? - Does the open front on the skirt show the chemise or is another skirt worn between the two? - Anything especially different in the bodice's look or fit from the standard front lace English bodice? 3. General Questions - I have seen women tuck the ends of the sleeves into the back of their belts. Is this period? - I have a lovely Chamois - 100% cotton fabric I'd like to use for the gown. Would this be too out of bounds? (please say no ; ) Thanks to all of you who spend the time to answer all of the questions on this list. Christy Christy Gilbreath christyg@cwnet.com American Museum of Straw Arts ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 Mar 1996 18:30:31 -0800 (PST) From: "Sarah E. Goodman" Subject: Re: Short Hair for Women? > Also, in another chapter, Jo is feeling bad about money, and sells > her hair... [Her family doesn't seem to show] the reaction I'd > expect if it were somehow scandalous for a woman to have short hair, > just that it isn't everybody's fashion. > > The March family (like the Alcott family) held very progressive ideas, > so we can't necessarily judge whether the rest of society would consider > something improper by society by whether the Marches did it Before we get into a big braggle about propriety on this, perhaps define what we mean by "society" in this context; are you talking about the prevailing cultural norms or are you talking about the the social elite? The Marches (and the Alcotts) were technically members of that elite as intellectuals but didn't think much of "society's" more indulgent social excesses (well, the parents didn't -- Meg and Amy spend a lot of time being tempted). And of course, LW was written in a time where norms were changing. Look at tatoos, peircings and on "unnatural hair color" today. I know many people who would say that earrings are still improper for men, but Ed Bradley has one and Ghod knows 60 Minutes is socially acceptable!. > if we could consider LM Alcott's books non-fiction, which we really can't.) No, but if you take into account the section of society it's trying to represent, I think you can take the social comment as fact. That's why the books were so shocking in their time. > So, where *did* real-hair pieces come from? Same place human hair wigs come from today (and the answer is in the two stories); the source was, and is, poor women (or at least women who needed money). In the mid to late 1800's, probably mostly from emmagrant women in the cities. (Now mostly from Asia, I think.) > They weren't just put together over years, like hair > pictures, from hair that stayed in the combs and brushes, were they? The only place I've ever heard of anyone doing this is in China (and that's from Pearl Buck so it's not the world's greatest documentation); I'd think it only worked well with fairly thick hair shafts (mine would break on the comb). It's certainly not the source for the hair that is purchased commercially. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 Mar 1996 21:05:18 -0600 (CST) From: Kerri Potratz Subject: Re: Video On Tue, 5 Mar 1996, Sarah E. Goodman wrote: > > Travels with my Aunt (Maffie Smith, Alec McCowen, Lou Gosset)..$19.99 > > (I have never seen this so I have no idea what the costumes are like, > > but it sounds alot like Mame). > > My Ghods! That was Lou Gosset?!? > > It's a great movie, but I don't remember the costumes as being all that > spectacular. It mostly happens in the "present" (which is probably the > early 70s but I don't quite remember) with a few flashbacks. It's sort > of a gritty, British lower middle class Auntie Mame, yes. > I saw it on stage in London with 5 guys in 3 piece suits doing all the parts with out any costume changes at all. It was facinating to watch. A bit confusing to begin with, but once the characters were established it was easy to follow.\ just my 2 bits > ==Lady Vitha== /\ / \/ \ *Kerri Potratz**University of South Dakota* / /\ \ *Lady Hrosvitha die Liedweberin < \/ > *The Proto-incipient Colligum of Svathy Sebestia \ /\ / *Kpotratz@sunfish.usd.edu \ \/ / \/ ==If I be waspish, best beware my sting!== Shrew, II.i ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 Mar 1996 18:11:34 -0800 From: gwjchris@ix.netcom.com (Bill and Glenna Christen) Subject: Re: Short Hair for Women? You wrote: >...often sold their hair to wigmakers. >I don't know how common this was... Hair was imported literally by the ton to the US during the 19th Century from both Europe and Asia. Poor women sold their hair and most likely wore headscarves or perhaps cheap wigs until their hair grew back out. Glenna Jo Christen gwjchris@ix.netcom.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 Mar 1996 22:27:36 -0500 (EST) From: GINA@delphi.com Subject: Re: H-Costume Digest V4 #63 I don't know if anyone has mentioned it yet, but another source for steel boning (that I have used) is: AMAZON DRYGOODS 2218 E. 11th St. Davenport, IA 52803 PHONE: 319-322-6800 FAX: 319-322-4003 TOLL FREE (ORDERS ON800-798-7979 CONSULTATION: 319-322-4138 I have purchased many items from them over the years (they've been at it for 14 years) and have always been satisfied by the quality. However, if you are asking for "speedy" service without paying premium shipping dollars, you'll be disappointed. Yesterday (11 March) I finally received my shipment of 36 yards of steel boning and U-tips. The boning is wonderful...VERY stiff...but I ordered it a MONTH ago! I have tried faxing an order, with credit card no., and requested UPS Red, Next Day Air Shipment. That order got "lost" and was not processed until I called to follow-up. It took nearly 3 weeks to arrive! I have mailed checks and the normal wait is around 4 weeks, almost always. I have yet to try phoning in an order, perhaps that would go more smoothly. So, if you're game...give them call. Marilyn is a darling, but they just don't seem to do much of anything in a hurry in Iowa. Sigh. However, for the brave and patient: they offer, "EXTRA HEAVY DOUBLE STEEL HOOPWIRE in white fabric, not washable, 12 yds. $18.95" (on page 18 of their new catalog) this the boning I bought. It is 1/2" wide, and very rigid. They also have, "DOUBLE STEEL HOOPWIRE encased in white fabric. Not washable, 12 yd. reel $16.50" or "encased in white plastic. Wahsable, 12 yd. reel $17.95" I have not tried these two, yet. Or you may wish to try, "POLYBONING, washable, not as rigid as teel, Black or White, choose, 12 yds. $19.95" They also sell Bone Casing (tubular) 1/2" and Bone Tape (Twill Tape) 1/2" wide. One word of caution, and the catalog does not mention this...the Extra Heavy Double Steel Hoopwire is too wide to be used with these. I made this mistake, and now have 36 yds of 1/2" wide White Twill Tape, for which I have no immediate need, and which will I will have to replace with the same quantity of 1" wide tape in those nasty little 3 yd. packets, which I hate! All of the above notwithstanding, I love Amazon Drygoods, and appreciate their merchandise. Perhaps you (Morghana, or any other) will have better luck... I hope! The usual disclaimers here...I am not employed by, nor have any interest in Amazon Drygoods, except as a semi-satisfied customer...or costumer . Hope some of this is of some use. - -Jocasta (mka Regina) ------------------------------ End of H-Costume Digest V4 #67 ****************************** A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to subscribe to that instead, send the command lines: unsubscribe h-costume-digest subscribe h-costume end in the body of a message to majordomo@lunch.engr.sgi.com. Thanks and enjoy the list!