From: owner-h-costume-digest (H-Costume Digest) To: h-costume-digest@lunch.engr.sgi.com Subject: H-Costume Digest V4 #68 Reply-To: h-costume Sender: owner-h-costume-digest@lunch.engr.sgi.com Errors-To: owner-h-costume-digest@lunch.engr.sgi.com Precedence: bulk H-Costume Digest Wednesday, March 13 1996 Volume 4, Number 68 Compilation copyright (C) 1996 Diane Barlow Close and Gretchen Miller Use in whole prohibited. Individual articles are the property of the author. Seek permission from that author before reprinting or quoting elsewhere. Important Addresses: Send submissions to: h-costume@lunch.engr.sgi.com (or reply to this message). Adds/drops/archives: majordomo@lunch.engr.sgi.com Real, live person: h-costume-request@andrew.cmu.edu Topics: Picnics and Turkeys Re: Short Hair for Women? Re: corsets Re: H-Costume Digest V4 #63 Books by Harris & Severa French Knots Re: Picnic !?! Dallas fascinators Re: Droopy Bustlines Re: Short Hair for Women? Re: corsets Re: French Knots Re: H-Costume Digest V4 #63 Re: French Knots RE: Picnics and Turkeys Re: varied Re: fascinators ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 12 Mar 96 18:09 PST From: iteach@slip.net (Elizabeth Pruyn) Subject: Picnics and Turkeys Hi there. While researching food information for our local Renaissance Faire, I found the following information: - -Turkeys first arrived in England from North America in the 1530's. They are mentioned in several cookbooks, by Harrison and the word was in sufficient usage to be included in french conversation manuals. In 1555 they were common enough that was price was regulated by law and a turkey cock cost 6s. and a turkey chicks were 2s. 8p. By 1572 the price had dropped to 3s. 4p. for a turkey cock and and 1s. 8p. for a chick. - -During the Renaissance, dining 'al fresco' seemed to be common in the summer for the upper-middle (gentry) and noble classes. Banquet houses were also constructed, either permenant or temporary structures, to allow for out door dining. I don't have the specific sources for this information, it's a compliation of several sources. If you're interested, post me off line and I'll send you my bibliography. Yours, Elizabeth Elizabeth Pruyn iteach@slip.net Oakland, CA "If I had been around when Rubens was painting, I would have been revered as a fabulous model. Kate Moss? Well, she would have been the paint brush..." - Dawn French ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 Mar 1996 22:31:24 -0500 (EST) From: Judy Gerjuoy Subject: Re: Short Hair for Women? On Tue, 12 Mar 1996, Sarah E. Goodman wrote: > > They weren't just put together over years, like hair > > pictures, from hair that stayed in the combs and brushes, were they? > > The only place I've ever heard of anyone doing this is in China (and > that's from Pearl Buck so it's not the world's greatest documentation); > I'd think it only worked well with fairly thick hair shafts (mine would > break on the comb). It's certainly not the source for the hair that is > purchased commercially. In one of the "Little House" books by Laura Ingalls Wilder there is a reference to a "fascinator" which was used to store hair that was found on brushes to be used to make a switch to pad out there hair. But, these were pioneers without a lot of spare cash. Judy/Jaelle jaelle@access.digex.net If the world were merely seductive, that would be easy. If it were merely challenging, that would be no problem. But I arise in the morning torn between a desire to improve the world, and a desire to enjoy the world. This makes it hard to plan the day. - E. B. White ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 Mar 1996 22:36:28 -0500 (EST) From: RMITCHELL@washjeff.edu Subject: Re: corsets All this talk about the mechanics of the regency corset reminds me of a title I used to see (maybe it's there still - haven't checked lately) in the Dover Publications catalogue. It was in the engineering section and was called (approximately) "A Stress Analysis of the Strapless Evening Gown". Lloyd Mitchell (rmitchell@washjeff.edu) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 Mar 1996 22:35:16 -0500 (EST) From: GINA@delphi.com Subject: Re: H-Costume Digest V4 #63 You don't say which period of corset you are doing. Is it Tudor? Victorian? Edwardian? Makes a huge amount of difference. More specifics will help. - -Jocasta ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 Mar 1996 23:25:24 -0500 From: JPMcTeer@aol.com Subject: Books by Harris & Severa Fran, Thank you for the review of Ms. Harris' book. I have been distressed by the lack of foundation garments (my particular interest) in her work for _Lady's Gallery_ and was wondering whether her book would be any better. I realize that not all surviving garments are of museum quality, but there's not much point in showing Victorian clothing without the proper undergarments (or shaped mannequins). Foundation garments are very hard to come by as originals, and not very easy to duplicate correctly with modern materials (that is - without whalebone). About Joan Severa - she did indeed look at many more pictures than were in her book. She was curator for many years at Wisconsin Historical Society and has been tantalizing the Costume Society with various slide lectures for about 5 years. Her references to color and usage are likely based on diaries, letters, and other materials of the time. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 13 Mar 1996 01:51:08 GMT From: David Brewer Subject: French Knots As part of my occaison musings on the ideal DIY, affordable, lightweight, authentic and generally pleasing body armour for a 15th century English soldier (a "padded jack"), it has been suggested that the layers of cloth in the jack be fixed in place by "French Knots"... ...and I have little idea of how to form such a knot. Can this be described in mere ASCII? Can these be documented back 500 years? Can anybody help? - -- David Brewer ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 Mar 1996 21:01:44 -0700 From: savaskan@electriciti.com (Julie Adams) Subject: Re: Picnic !?! Sharron wrote: >When DID a "picnic" become a thing to do? An easy to look up example of courtiers picnicing is in 20,000 Years of Fashion, by Francois Boucher, page 211 called Hunting with Falcons at the court of Philip the Good. There are several paintings of Maximillian I (1510ish, Holy Roman Empire) and his court out picnicing. One of my favorites is the court wearing mostly yellow with a touch of black (but I have also seen one in which they were predominantly in red) out on a picnic and a day of fishing. There are several paintings by Lucas Cranach which show what may be picnics or outdoor feasts with upper and middle class participants. I have a number of early 16th century woodcuts of peasants having a village picnic (which sort of looks like a modern day "company picnic") with dancing, feasting and games. There is a small selection of these in Peasants, Warriors, and Wives, Popular Imagery in the Reformation, by Keith Moxey. There is an equivalent "company picnic" scene showing Burgers in one of the woodcuts in the park near a larger town. There are also actually numerous examples of small groups (4-6 people) or couples outdoors eating while sitting on a cloth on the ground in various German woodcuts by different artists throughout the 16th century. These are of various ranks, some clearly lower or middle class. Some excellent examples are actually on woodcuts of playing cards. And some are clearly "lovers" picnics. There are also several Breugel's which show people eating and/or partying outdoors. Usually they are shown with some type of table and seating (even the peasants), but are also shown lounging on cloths, and a few are even seated on bare ground (even some dressed in fine clothing). Based on my documentation, I would say that picnicing was alive and well in the Holy Roman Empire in the early 16th century. Julie Adams ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 Mar 96 23:44:49 PST From: ches@tristero.io.com Subject: Dallas I hear that there are some really great fabric places in Dallas. Where are they, what are their names, what are their hours? Email me privatly as I am in the middle of moving there as we speak and do not want to take up too much band width!:} Ciao @}\ Ches @}----`--,-- http://www.io.com/~ches/ @}/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 13 Mar 1996 00:55:12 -0500 From: Pooka940@aol.com Subject: fascinators In a message dated 96-03-12 23:20:53 EST, you write: >In one of the "Little House" books by Laura Ingalls Wilder there is a >reference to a "fascinator" which was used to store hair that was found >on brushes to be used to make a switch to pad out there hair. But, these >were pioneers without a lot of spare cash. I have a small collection of these in china, including one which was on my grandmother's dressing table. They are similar to a powder dish with lid, but there is an opening in the center of the lid into which the hair is placed...after pulling it from brushes, etc. It was my understanding, however, that this hair was collected to be placed in a net and used as padding _under_ the wearer's hair, as a filler. (No documentation, Just word from Grandma.) One of my pieces matches a hat pin stand which I can date to 1870. The pieces are lovely, and probably were from middle-class homes. (back to lurking) Karen S. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 Mar 96 23:39:21 PST From: ches@tristero.io.com Subject: Re: Droopy Bustlines Recently on one of the talk shows on the lifetime channel they interviewed an author of a new book (can't remember the name) she co wrote about breast ailments. I have not read the book but will look for it. She is not a medical person nor is her husband but the two of them did research for several years on the subject with questionnaires. The questions were simply do you wear a bra, if you have an ailment when did you notice, what kind of ailment, how long were you wearing a bra when you found out you had your ailment. They then went to countries where to this day the women do not wear supports to see if the muscles Drooped. What they found were that the women who did not ever wear a bra there was a less than 1% occurrence of Breast Cancer and even less of any other ailment. This included the other counties' numbers as well as the US. They also found in these same women that do a great deal of work using the upper body had no drooping and no breast cancer or other breast related ailments. My question is this....are there any incidents in all you alls readings and research that even mention breast cancer or any other ailments in Women 's breasts through the ages? As for me the wrong cup size underwire cut into both my breast, I was very young and embarresed about my large cup size vs my tiny self. I am healed and no other problems have arrived. Since I started to breast feed my infant this year the bra I wear is a nursing bra with a braided cord in place of a wire. Very comfortable and supportive. I understand that braided cording on a larger scale was used in bodices of clothing in certain periods. Does anyone know about this? Ciao @}\ Ches @}----`--,-- http://www.io.com/~ches/ @}/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 Mar 1996 23:04:12 -0800 (PST) From: "Sarah E. Goodman" Subject: Re: Short Hair for Women? > > > They weren't just put together over years, like hair > > > pictures, from hair that stayed in the combs and brushes, were they? > > > In one of the "Little House" books by Laura Ingalls Wilder there is a > reference to a "fascinator" which was used to store hair that was found > on brushes to be used to make a switch to pad out there hair A switch or a rat? To me a switch is an attachable pony-tail type thing, wherease "padding out [the] hair" sounds like putting something under an up do or chignon. I used to do this with my "hairbrush hair" and a nylon hair net inside of a french twist. I'd think you wouldn't really need the net; just snarling up the hair would work. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 Mar 1996 23:08:37 -0800 (PST) From: "Sarah E. Goodman" Subject: Re: corsets > All this talk about the mechanics of the regency corset reminds > me of a title I used to see (maybe it's there still - haven't > checked lately) in the Dover Publications catalogue. It was in > the engineering section and was called (approximately) "A Stress > Analysis of the Strapless Evening Gown". I used to have a copy around (and may still). Tongue firmly in cheek, although I never ran it by an engineer to see if the analysis was sound. But I always claimed I must have an intrinsic grasp of engineering, since I once built a strapless bodice for a friend who was a 32-DD--and she had to tap-dance in it! ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 Mar 1996 23:15:42 -0800 (PST) From: "Sarah E. Goodman" Subject: Re: French Knots > by "French Knots"... > > ...and I have little idea of how to form such a knot. Can this be > described in mere ASCII? Can these be documented back 500 years? Haven't a clue on it's history, but you make them by poking the needle from the back to the front of the fabric, pulling the thread through, turning the needle and placing it close the the thread coming through the fabric, wrapping the thread around the end of the needle a couple of times, then pushing the needle back in at the same place. This needs hands, not ASCII to really explain. If you do it right you get a little dot of spiralled thread--if you do it wrong you get a tiny stitch or no stich at all . It's not a very strong stitch and the knots (or at least when I do them) sometimes come unsprung leaving loops of thread dangling--I'd think some other sort of small stitch would work better for the purpose . (But, as I say I haven't a clue as to what, if anything, was done.) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 13 Mar 1996 01:45:14 -0800 (PST) From: Agnes Gawne Subject: Re: H-Costume Digest V4 #63 On Tue, 12 Mar 1996 GINA@delphi.com wrote: >referring to Amazon drygoods > They also sell Bone Casing (tubular) 1/2" and Bone Tape (Twill Tape) 1/2" > wide. One word of caution, and the catalog does not mention this...the Extra > Heavy Double Steel Hoopwire is too wide to be used with these. I made this > mistake, and now have 36 yds of 1/2" wide White Twill Tape, for which I have > no immediate need, and which will I will have to replace with the same quantity > of 1" wide tape in those nasty little 3 yd. packets, which I hate! > Before you go rushing out and purchasing those short packets go to the upholstery section of the fabric store (Providing there is an upholstery section where you shop) and get the twill tape off large spools. It's cheaper, it's all in one piece, and the stuff I buy here is all cotton. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 13 Mar 1996 21:24:35 +1100 (EST) From: Fiona Thorne Subject: Re: French Knots > > by "French Knots"... > > > > ...and I have little idea of how to form such a knot. Can this be > > described in mere ASCII? Can these be documented back 500 years? > > Haven't a clue on it's history, but you make them by poking the needle > from the back to the front of the fabric, pulling the thread through, Ditto no idea on history but, if you are after the effect of an embroider french knot (as explained in the previous post), but have trouble making it, try finding an embroidery book or candlewicking book that explains colonial knots - they are supposed to look similar but are much easier to make (apparently). Fiona - ------------------------------------------------------------- Fiona Thorne Masters Student, School of Computing Sciences, University of Technology, Sydney (Australia) fthorne@socs.uts.edu.au or Fiona_E._Thorne@aapda.com.au http://linus.socs.uts.edu.au/~fthorne ------------------------------ Date: 13 Mar 96 10:07:00 GMT From: Mrs C S Yeldham Subject: RE: Picnics and Turkeys I would like your bibliography for these references, cos I would take issue with some of the points made, which is why I am also posting this to the list!: Turkeys - I am surprised you find evidence as early as the 1530s. As someone else pointed out, there was confusion between guineafowl and turkeys, so we cannot be entirely sure which was meant - could the prices given relate to guineafowl? The reference I've seen (which I shall now have to check) is fairly confident that Archbishop Cranmer was serving a new bird. The earliest turkeys, I believe, were black, now known as the Norfolk Black and are rare. It is easier to get hold of bronze turkeys, which are a cross between the black and white. They are a very difference shape to the over-bred white (which cannot even mate). I shall also check a new book I've just bought, on animal remains found in Lincoln from Roman to Civil War periods, and see if any turkeys turn up! Harrison (Description of England) was written in the 1570s (I've got the second edition from 1587. I shall check him for turkeys. I have not seen any references, apart from the ones I've quoted, to dining outside - perhaps that was in Italy? As someone said in another connection, illustrations, even woodcuts, are not always realistic representations of behaviour, they can be erotica, or mythological illustrations. To take a reasonably contemporary example - Leonardo may have painted the Rocks from life, but would a contemporary woman have sat in it for pleasure, as he shows Mary doing, playing with children? Banquetting houses were _not_ constructed for dining, but for banquets (dining and feasting are not synonyms for banquetting in the 16th century - sorry, its one of my hobby horses!). Banquets are separate from dining; after a dinner the host and family and the most important guests would leave the table and go to the banquetting house (sometimes built on the roof) and sweetmeats, sweet dishes and sweet wines would be served. This is very ostentatious conspicuous consumption, not really picnicing. It also apparently got a reputation for immoral behaviour. Ice-Age If there was a mini ice-age in the 16th century, it seems to have had funny effects. Switzerland is being covered by glaciers (I know the reference was to just one, but an ice age would surely affect more than one glacier?) whilst further north in Imperial Germany, they have taken up widespread picnicing! Caroline Confused and bemused! ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 13 Mar 1996 15:48:57 GMT From: "Todd A. Brun" Subject: Re: varied Caroline Yeldham writes: >I've been trying to think of literary 'picnics', and the first one that >springs to mind is in Jane Austen, in 'Emma' a party is made up to go to >someone's house to eat strawberries, and they walk around the gardens, >picking strawberries to eat. Does that count? Mind you, the meal they are >served is cooked and, I think, served, indoors. Otherwise, even in Austen, >they don't take picnics, they eat at local inns - as in P&P, or carry food >with them, as for long journeys. Ah, how the memory plays tricks...in _Emma_ there is a genuine picnic, eaten out of doors, in addition to the strawberry picking expedition. This is definitely a picnic in the modern sense (except that we probably have a lot fewer servants to wait on us than they did), and I think they were quite popular by the Regency, though I can't come up with any other references off hand. When the custom started, though, I couldn't say. -- Todd Brun ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 13 Mar 1996 07:53:14 -0500 (EST) From: Judy Gerjuoy Subject: Re: fascinators On Wed, 13 Mar 1996 Pooka940@aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 96-03-12 23:20:53 EST, you [Judy Gerjuoy] write: > > >In one of the "Little House" books by Laura Ingalls Wilder there is a > >reference to a "fascinator" which was used to store hair that was found > >on brushes to be used to make a switch to pad out there hair. But, these > >were pioneers without a lot of spare cash. > > I have a small collection of these in china, including one which was > on my grandmother's dressing table. They are similar to a powder > dish with lid, but there is an opening in the center of the lid into which > the hair is placed...after pulling it from brushes, etc. It was my > understanding, however, that this hair was collected to be placed > in a net and used as padding _under_ the wearer's hair, as a > filler. (No documentation, Just word from Grandma.) That's probably more correct that my explanation. Judy/Jaelle jaelle@access.digex.net ------------------------------ End of H-Costume Digest V4 #68 ****************************** A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to subscribe to that instead, send the command lines: unsubscribe h-costume-digest subscribe h-costume end in the body of a message to majordomo@lunch.engr.sgi.com. Thanks and enjoy the list!