From: owner-h-costume-digest (H-Costume Digest) To: h-costume-digest@lunch.engr.sgi.com Subject: H-Costume Digest V4 #77 Reply-To: h-costume Sender: owner-h-costume-digest@lunch.engr.sgi.com Errors-To: owner-h-costume-digest@lunch.engr.sgi.com Precedence: bulk H-Costume Digest Thursday, March 21 1996 Volume 4, Number 77 Compilation copyright (C) 1996 Diane Barlow Close and Gretchen Miller Use in whole prohibited. Individual articles are the property of the author. Seek permission from that author before reprinting or quoting elsewhere. Important Addresses: Send submissions to: h-costume@lunch.engr.sgi.com (or reply to this message). Adds/drops/archives: majordomo@lunch.engr.sgi.com Real, live person: h-costume-request@andrew.cmu.edu Topics: Re: French Knots Re: hennins smocks bi-coloured hoses Re: French Knots Re: French Knots Re: Historic Costume Newsletter Re: French Knots cote-hardie, instructions Newsletter RE: smocks Re: smocks RE: smocks 'Neath the kilt Re: Historic Costume Newsletter hennins Re: 'Neath the kilt ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 20 Mar 1996 16:52:04 -0800 (PST) From: Heather Rose Jones Subject: Re: French Knots On Wed, 20 Mar 1996, Veda Crewe Joseph wrote: > To the best of my knowledge, french knots are really an embroidery > technique meant to create the effect of a round ball on the surface of > the piece, not to hold anything together. They were not in use as early > as the 15th century in embroidery. (Please prove me wrong.) I'll take you up on that last bit. Christie (English Medieval Embroidery) mentions the rare use of french knots during the period she covers (approx. 12-14th century according to my notes) for depicting the centers of flowers. (I suspect this would be toward the end of her covered period.) Schuette (The Art of Embroidery) has photographs of a late 15th century Spanish altar frontal in which french knots are used as a texturing effect on a ground of or nue/. Heather Rose Jones ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Mar 1996 20:33:22 -0600 (CST) From: The Espresso Pegasus! Subject: Re: hennins hmmm in response to the loop, on the front of these headresses... and that I went second-hand shoping today... mine eyes fell upon (I did pick them up) a 1950's ish hat with the black netting that had the loops on four sides... incuding one, front and center... They were velvet covered wires, and looked much like what I have been told.. any relation?.. and has anyone used these as a structural base for a hennin? Take Care, Sarahj ______________________.oO*Oo._______________________ You Can Fret Me, But You Cannot Play Upon Me--Hamlet ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Mar 1996 02:07:10 -0500 From: NeenH@aol.com Subject: smocks Does anyone have info on smocked smocks in America in the 18th C? They were clearly becoming popular then in England, peaking in 19th, but started late 18th. Some must've come over on the backs of immigrants from Surrey to America, anyone know of a source? I REALLY want to make my husband one (I know I mustn't do the shoulder embroidery, just the smocking, simply and small sections, though I'd love to make a proper shepherd's smock...), my little boy, too. My husband would be delighted to wear one. Colleen ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Mar 96 09:15:00 CET From: Van Opstal Walter Subject: bi-coloured hoses Hello, Would anyone be able to tell me when bi-coloured hoses came into use? I mean hoses with each leg in a separate colour. Would this be accepatble for Flanders, around 1300 - 1330? Thanks. Walter. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Mar 1996 07:15:37 -0500 From: artg@nchgr.nih.gov (Art Glatfelter) Subject: Re: French Knots Is it at all possible that the french knots are the same as the "button holes" in a button hole jack? ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Mar 1996 06:40:20 -0800 From: WRASaylor@aol.com Subject: Re: French Knots The book *Drafting and Constructing a Doublet of the Spanish Renaissance* has a section on period stitches for attaching the padding and lining in a doublet. Hope this helps. - Rhodry ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Mar 1996 06:43:48 -0800 From: Morghana@aol.com Subject: Re: Historic Costume Newsletter In a message dated 96-03-20 11:15:11 EST, Lezlie writes: >I'm curious because I have not come across such a newsletter and am >considering starting one. I would like to get some opinions on this from my >fellow historic costumers. > > Personally I'd be interested. Have you checked out the new RENAISSANCE magazine and one called something like LIVING HISTORY to see how sucessful (ie how big a subscriber base they have)? Also, would magazines like that include more than the occasional article on costume? (Neither is available on newstands here, and I'm loathe to subscribe without a recommendation). However, a newsletter whose sole purpose is costume recreation would be a definite appeal to me. ~Morghana ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Mar 96 8:12 From: joe@imr.usa.com (Joe Cook) Subject: Re: French Knots Exactly. Those are the pictures that I have seen. It isn't very common, but it did appear. ---------- From: Heather Rose Jones To: joe; 'mail@ih ' Subject: Re: French Knots Date: Wednesday, March 20, 1996 4:52PM On Wed, 20 Mar 1996, Veda Crewe Joseph wrote: > To the best of my knowledge, french knots are really an embroidery > technique meant to create the effect of a round ball on the surface of > the piece, not to hold anything together. They were not in use as early > as the 15th century in embroidery. (Please prove me wrong.) I'll take you up on that last bit. Christie (English Medieval Embroidery) mentions the rare use of french knots during the period she covers (approx. 12-14th century according to my notes) for depicting the centers of flowers. (I suspect this would be toward the end of her covered period.) Schuette (The Art of Embroidery) has photographs of a late 15th century Spanish altar frontal in which french knots are used as a texturing effect on a ground of or nue/. Heather Rose Jones ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Mar 1996 09:27:42 -0600 (CST) From: The Espresso Pegasus! Subject: cote-hardie, instructions This was my question, and I got an absoluley marvelous response back, so I thought that I would share it with the list. Sarahj > >and on a side note... since you seem familliar with that period... what >sort of underdress was worn with the high-waisted V-necked(with inset) >gowns?.. puffy sleves?.. how fitted?.. was it something that restricted >movement? (like is roumored about the cote-hardie?) > > Well, they wore a cotehardie under it, of course. A supportive, fitted kirtle just like the one being worn 50 years earlier. Cotehardies are not restrictive if they are made correctly. I cannot think of a way to describe a cotehardie over the net. I can give you a few hints, though. I hope these help: These are the measurements I take: Shoulders (point to point) Chest (widest part) Ribs (directly under bust) Waist (narrowest part) Hips (widest part) Holding the measuring tape exactly perpendicular to the floor, and not forming it to the body, get these measurements: Shoulder to chest Chest to waist Waist to hip hip to floor Using the regular method: Bicep (flexed) Elbow (bent) Wrist Shoulder to wrist (with arm at side of body) armpit to wrist (with arm straight out to side) *Make inset sleeves. The armhole should curve in, the sleeve should be longer from shoulder to wrist than from armpit to wrist. To measure this, have the wearer hold her arms down for the shoulder to wrist measurement, and straight out to the side for the armpit to wrist measurement. Leave the upper arm slightly loose (about an inch of wearing ease around the flexed bicep). The sleeve should relatively tightly around the forearm (when flexed). *Make a body shelf for the bosom. To do this, carefully measure the distances between the shoulders and the bust, the bust and the waist, the waist and the hip. Do not run the tape measure along the body, but hold it perpendicular to the floor (you can use a yardstick for this to make sure it's straight). Also, measure around the ribs just under the bust. When drawing out the pattern, measure down from the shoulder to just under the armpit and make a dot. Then measure out from the center seam one quarter of the chest measurement level with the dot. Measure down one more inch, and out one quarter of the rib measurement. This will form the body shelf. You continue this down and over to get the waist and hips in the right spots. The skirt continues down from there. Add gores to give the skirt fullness--remember, medieval fabric was narrower than ours. It will look vaguely like this. Note the "body shelf" under the armpit. ___ | | / | ___ / \ \__ / make the back neckline higher than the front. / | the front should scoop no lower than | half the width of the neckline | | | \ \ \ \ *Make sure you cut the armholes large enough. About 10 inches down from the shoulder is not unheard of. This will give the wearer plenty of room to move. *Do not cut the neckline any deeper than it is wide. A cotehardie does not have a decolletage. *Make the dress so it will lace up the front. When lacing, use the spiral method: use one strand of lacing and go in and out of each hole, spiraling up from the top. It sort of looks like a whipstitch. When lacing up the dress, as you approach the bosom, the wearer may need to adjust, and pull up the bosom until fully laced in. In this way, the dress is supporting the bust, as a sort of bra. As for the front plackette under the V-necked dress: Sometimes the front lacings of the dress are visible, meaning that no other garment is being worn. However, there usually seems to be some sort of dickey involved. This can be acheived by pinning a trapezoidal piece of fabric onto the kirtle before putting on the gown. The larger side of the trapezoid is on top. If you have any questions, feel free to ask. If you like, you may post this to the costume list. I may join after I'm done with my TI responsibilities. It looks like fun! Meredydd Editor of Tournaments Illuminated Companion of the Laurel Mommy of Owen (getting bigger by the moment) It's just stuffing, and you stuff into dat bird. ------------------------------ Date: 21 Mar 96 15:31:00 GMT From: Mrs C S Yeldham Subject: Newsletter The Living History Register is published twice a year and costs #3 (pounds), contact LHR 21 Oak Road Woolston Southampton Hants SO19 9BQ A certain amount of discussion of events and living history techniques, some adverts for groups, events and suppliers of equipment. Definately UK. Talking about the doublet, I'm not sure about slashing to velvet, and the effect of the pile on the top fabric (movement etc) so I've avoided it. If you use a good felted wool you don't need to bind the edges of the slashes, the one I did is about 4 years old. This was for a peascod doublet, and I used copydex, layers of drill and some steel bones to get the shape, top fabric (wool), under fabric (cotton satin), and lining (cotton) for the main body, to hold the peascod shape when worn I also used an inner lacing layer of drill which was attached to the side seams. It felt more like construction than costuming! Caroline ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Mar 1996 10:22:07 -0600 (CST) From: Deb Subject: RE: smocks >Does anyone have info on smocked smocks in America in the 18th C? They Since you haven't had any responses yet, I'll put in my 2 cents: I've been researching the 1775-1779 time period (actually as early as early 1700's) and haven't seen any smocked shirts. This doesn't mean there weren't any ... but if nobody chimes in and says there _were_ it might suggest a conclusion. Deb baddorf@fnal.gov ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Mar 1996 10:33:01 -0800 (PST) From: erin1@uclink4.berkeley.edu (Erin Harvey Moody) Subject: Re: smocks Colleen, funny you should ask about 18thC smocks, that's all I have been working on for hte last 2 weeks! Actually I am making a 16thC German smocked chemise and I will be teaching smocking at an SCA Collegium in April. I will look up 18thC America in my books (since they are spread all over my workshop right now. I have seen several from the period and a friend of mineowns an original 18thC smock but I think it is ENglish, not American. Is this for a ren-enactment group? Erin ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Mar 1996 10:54:23 -0800 (PST) From: erin1@uclink4.berkeley.edu (Erin Harvey Moody) Subject: RE: smocks Deb, the original question was (I believe) for smocked *smocks* not shirts. Smocks worn by agricultural workers in the early 18thC were embroidered in a very distinctive way which is called "smocking" today. As far as my current research goes, the embroidery used on smocks or "smocking" was not seen on other garment in the *18th*C. However, they are documented for shirts and chemises in the Renaissance, and clothing in the 19thC. Erin >>Does anyone have info on smocked smocks in America in the 18th C? They > > >Since you haven't had any responses yet, I'll put in my 2 cents: >I've been researching the 1775-1779 time period (actually as >early as early 1700's) and haven't seen any smocked shirts. > >This doesn't mean there weren't any ... but if nobody chimes in >and says there _were_ it might suggest a conclusion. > >Deb baddorf@fnal.gov > > ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Mar 1996 13:56:44 -0500 From: anderson@glen-net.ca (David G Anderson) Subject: 'Neath the kilt And is it not true that the Highlandman's shirttail was so long that it was tied up and knotted in the crotch, thus obviating the need for Fruit-of-the-Loom briefs 'neath the kilt? David G Anderson Glengarry Historical Society - 1784 Williamstown, Ontario, Canada K0C 2J0 _____________________________________ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Mar 1996 13:04:55 -0800 From: Booboopies@aol.com Subject: Re: Historic Costume Newsletter In a message dated 96-03-21 15:10:59 EST, Morghana@aol.com writes: >Personally I'd be interested. Have you checked out the new RENAISSANCE >magazine and one called something like LIVING HISTORY to see how sucessful >(ie how big a subscriber base they have)? Also, would magazines like that >include more than the occasional article on costume? (Neither is available >on newstands here, and I'm loathe to subscribe without a recommendation). > >However, a newsletter whose sole purpose is costume recreation would be a >definite appeal to me. > > LIVING HISTORY's primary thrust is reporting on 17-18th C, some CW, and a smattering of other events. There's been little on costume. It's a fairly new mag (about 2 years) and will undoubtedly improve over time. I buy it at a little shop in Philly called Avril 50, a place that carries just about every magazine known to mankind. Haven't seen RENAISSANCE there, but then that's not my time period so I haven't been looking. Another publication is THE FEMALE SPECTATOR, REVIVED. It's geared toward 18th-C campfollowers. Articles draw alot from secondary sources. It was published for a year, then stopped, and now Christine has just put out Vol. 2, No. 2 (1995). It's cheaper than LIVING HISTORY at $9/4 issues, $3 single issues. Write to Christine Carr Reese, THE FEMAE SPECTATOR, REVIVED, PO Box 2421, Saginaw, MI, 48605, USA. Neither LH or FSR is a scholarly mag, if that's what you're looking for regarding costume. Karen Mullian ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Mar 1996 16:48:36 -0500 (EST) From: RMITCHELL@washjeff.edu Subject: hennins Not to cut this thread short (so to speak!), but there was extensive discussion of hennins on this list last year - I *think* towards the end of the summer: someone correct me. There's a whole lot of useful info there on the topic for anyone who checks the index. Lloyd Mitchell (rmitchell@washjeff.edu) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Mar 1996 13:59:22 -0800 From: KaosWarior@vcnet.com Subject: Re: 'Neath the kilt >And is it not true that the Highlandman's shirttail was so long that it was >tied up and knotted in the crotch, thus obviating the need for >Fruit-of-the-Loom briefs 'neath the kilt? > > I always thought that there was no need for such "under" items. The liene itself was long enough to reach ones ankles similar to a night shirt today but was hiked up & belted with the kilt or just belted over trews for the Irish. Though in the "HeeLands" the kilt was such a valuble item that contrary to many, the kilt was removed for battle, if possible & the liene was tied up in said fashion. I suppose your heard that the only thing worn under a kilt is a long smile ;) But truth have it, nothings worn under a kilt, It's all in good working order! ---------- / / --------------- O O TO BOLDY SCOOT, WHERE NO MAN HATH SCOOTED BEFORE! ------------------------------ End of H-Costume Digest V4 #77 ****************************** A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to subscribe to that instead, send the command lines: unsubscribe h-costume-digest subscribe h-costume end in the body of a message to majordomo@lunch.engr.sgi.com. Thanks and enjoy the list!